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oisin bourke
01-05-2009, 07:52 PM
Nice little description of building up the interior muscles which are needed to do the body skills mentioned by others...

"The center is under the navel. There are 2 muscles which are vertical and diagonal muscle
under the navel. When you hold in your stomach at practice of Misogi, you can see the muscles.
When you hold in your stomach during serious practice of Misogi, you would feel that the skin
on your stomach sticks to your back. If you practice those 4 kinds of breathing in such situation,
you would get great concentration power.
You hold breathing in the lower part of lung. This power transmits to abdominal muscle. The
abdominal muscle was built up by the practice with breathing. That's why the shape of
abdominal muscle built by Aikido is different from the muscle built by push-ups or physical
exercise."

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Is this part of the body "conditioned" to have different qualities in different arts?

For example, would an art such as hsing i condition a harder, more solid hara compared to an "aiki" art which cultivates a softer, more reflexive hara? Or is this "Quality" merely related to different stages of progression?

Any thoughts anyone?

Mike Sigman
01-05-2009, 10:15 PM
For example, would an art such as hsing i condition a harder, more solid hara compared to an "aiki" art which cultivates a softer, more reflexive hara? Or is this "Quality" merely related to different stages of progression?There would almost undoubtedly be differences between the hara development in different arts, but I think that often reflects how "pure" the "use the hara" is done in various arts.

In a very pure sense of "use the hara for your movements" there is a form of movement that is referred to as "six harmonies" type of movement. In the old days in China, when martial-arts and cultivating the body (as part of the Dao) were more important, a greater percentage of the arts bespoke themselves as utilizing "six harmonies" movement, the hallmark movement of a full-blown "internal art". Nowadays a lot of those arts still exist but they no longer use the six-harmonies movement and use more ordinary "external" aspects of ki and kokyu skills. The more "pure" a martial-art is, the more the hara/tanden/dantien area is used. I've seen practitioners of Chen's Taiji who have a development in the hara/dantien that comes from constantly manipulating the ki and kokyu skills... to the point that they can push out a small mound of specialized muscles at the dantien that is about the size of a large apple.

My point being that it's not so much that Aikido is different (there are other arts that pretty much use the hara as much as Aikido does), but that the level of hara-usage can vary. In fact, there is generally a lot of variance even within different martial arts, depending upon the skills of the practitioner.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

oisin bourke
01-06-2009, 07:05 AM
Thanks for the considered reply.

So, if I understand correctly (and please correct me otherwise),
the use of the Hara and the associated skills required for example to push air through a bamboo flute / manipulate a longbow / lock joints in a grapple are basically the same and are to a greater or lesser degree stages of development towards the fully rounded skills of the six harmonies?

(This being opposed to the Hara becoming hyper conditioned for a specific skill.)

One of the things that got me thinking about these things apart from my own training and experiences with others is the following quote taken from the blog below

http://daixinyi.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=9

YLC) The thing is every style has their own specific way of doing things and not all are compatible with each other. I have only trained in Dai style solely since I was around 20 years old, so I only know Dai style. What I do know though, that my art has our own unique body requirements, that I believe other styles do not have.

For example say you practice Dai style and Taiji, they have completely different requirements. Dai style has a small, compact and narrow frame and ever strike has a contraction, followed by a expansion, this is achieved by rolling the dan tian on a vertical axis. Taiji does not have this, so practicing Taiji will damage your Dai style and vice versa. I don't believe it is good to try and practice many arts at the same time, to me my art gives me all I need and more. You got to ask yourself, do you really want to master your art, or do you want to be somewhat of a collector?

(JB) So you don't think it is a bad idea to practice shuai jiao or bjj while you are learning Dai?

YLC) To me solely concentrating on Dai is best, but I don't really mind people training in a grappling style as long as they train technique over brute force. The reason I don't mind is as long as they don't train striking from other arts, otherwise they will never progress as other art's don't use dan tian like we do.

Thanks for your time

Mike Sigman
01-06-2009, 07:25 AM
So, if I understand correctly (and please correct me otherwise),
the use of the Hara and the associated skills required for example to push air through a bamboo flute / manipulate a longbow / lock joints in a grapple are basically the same and are to a greater or lesser degree stages of development towards the fully rounded skills of the six harmonies? That's fairly accurate.

(This being opposed to the Hara becoming hyper conditioned for a specific skill.) I would say, just to be a stickler, "as opposed to developing the hara's basic skill possibilities toward a narrow specific art or group of skills".

One of the things that got me thinking about these things apart from my own training and experiences with others is the following quote taken from the blog below

http://daixinyi.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=9 YLC) The thing is every style has their own specific way of doing things and not all are compatible with each other. I have only trained in Dai style solely since I was around 20 years old, so I only know Dai style. What I do know though, that my art has our own unique body requirements, that I believe other styles do not have.

For example say you practice Dai style and Taiji, they have completely different requirements. Dai style has a small, compact and narrow frame and ever strike has a contraction, followed by a expansion, this is achieved by rolling the dan tian on a vertical axis. Taiji does not have this, so practicing Taiji will damage your Dai style and vice versa. I don't believe it is good to try and practice many arts at the same time, to me my art gives me all I need and more. You got to ask yourself, do you really want to master your art, or do you want to be somewhat of a collector?

(JB) So you don't think it is a bad idea to practice shuai jiao or bjj while you are learning Dai?

YLC) To me solely concentrating on Dai is best, but I don't really mind people training in a grappling style as long as they train technique over brute force. The reason I don't mind is as long as they don't train striking from other arts, otherwise they will never progress as other art's don't use dan tian like we do.
Well, this is something I've commented on before in a few posts. There are different permutations of the ki/kokyu skills, so a person has to be careful and not learn, say, a hard karate's approach to training and doing ki/kokyu and then trying to slip it into Aikido, thinking that it is the same ki/kokyu skills as Ueshiba used. It's like being a painter of art.... the same core skills of paint, using a brush, etc., are used by two people, but one person may be a realistic portrait-painter and the other person may be a modernist. Two different results, even though the basic principles are the same.

Odd you should mention Dai Family Xinyi.... we were just talking on QiJin about some of the basic (core exercise) training in Dai Xinyi's "Squatting Monkey" and how it relates to some of the suburi that Ueshiba was filmed doing back in the 1930's. The point I was making in the discussion was that the Dai Xinyi's method of storing power and then striking is not functionally different from what is considered "good technique" in a number of Asian martial arts, and surprisingly Ueshiba can be seen doing the same store-and-release in his kenpo. How many current Aikidoists were taught this almost universal form of bokken-swinging that Ueshiba was using as far back as the 1930's, I wonder?

Anyway, FWIW

Mike Sigman

Pat Togher
01-06-2009, 11:21 AM
Odd you should mention Dai Family Xinyi.... we were just talking on QiJin about some of the basic (core exercise) training in Dai Xinyi's "Squatting Monkey" and how it relates to some of the suburi that Ueshiba was filmed doing back in the 1930's. The point I was making in the discussion was that the Dai Xinyi's method of storing power and then striking is not functionally different from what is considered "good technique" in a number of Asian martial arts, and surprisingly Ueshiba can be seen doing the same store-and-release in his kenpo. How many current Aikidoists were taught this almost universal form of bokken-swinging that Ueshiba was using as far back as the 1930's, I wonder?

Anyway, FWIW

Mike Sigman

Hey Mike,
Been following your posts but haven't had anything to add. In the above quote, are you referring to the Asahi film? If so, I'd be grateful for a time signature so I can see what suburi you are referring to. If you are referring to a different film, could you provide a link?

Many thanks,
Pat

Mike Sigman
01-06-2009, 12:55 PM
If so, I'd be grateful for a time signature so I can see what suburi you are referring to.

Hi Pat:

It's this one; between 7:33 and 7:50

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

The discussion on QiJin was along slightly different lines than just the hara/dantien and more along the lines of the lower dantien. The comparison was with the last guy on this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B557D3AEE4889919&playnext=1

Best.

Mike

Erick Mead
01-06-2009, 05:25 PM
Ueshiba can be seen doing the same store-and-release in his kenpo. How many current Aikidoists were taught this almost universal form of bokken-swinging that Ueshiba was using as far back as the 1930's, I wonder?In Iwama type practice with Bernice Tom Sensei (that was between 93-97), we did all sorts of variations on happo undo, with various turns and shifts added -- with specific emphasis on conservation of movement from strike to strike. I spent two ship deployments, one in that period and one just after, doing those most every day. I keep training in that and teach some of it.

Several of those movements track with some of the movements O Sensei is doing in that kenpo exhibition -- he is just doing them singly and connecting them (seemingly) free form (and more variations than I ever learned, certainly), whereas we did ours one at the time and repeated them in four or eight directions. We did the thirty-one jo kata and twenty jo suburi in much the same spirit, too.

I know for a fact that Baumgartner Sensei in Santa Fe does the thirty-one jo kata in the same manner in both the solo suburi and in the awase bunkai and I just showed up there one day last year while travelling. About all the aikido I get out of town is what I can pick up while out on work. Nice folks in Santa Fe. Very accommodating, BTW.

Mike Sigman
01-06-2009, 05:30 PM
Several of those movements track with some of the movements O Sensei is doing in that kenpo exhibition
So why don't you describe those movements? None of your other descriptions have ever "tracked" very well, but if you want to claim something you know is the same thing as what I'm describing, why not make the case in a better-defined way? "Track" seems so fuzzy for someone who prefers such precise terms.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
01-07-2009, 11:35 AM
So why don't you describe those movements? None of your other descriptions have ever "tracked" very well, but if you want to claim something you know is the same thing as what I'm describing, why not make the case in a better-defined way? "Track" seems so fuzzy for someone who prefers such precise terms.I would, but the arc of those efforts in the past has, well, suffice it to say:

猫に小判.

猫に鰹節

I am not sure which is the correct cat but, one of those, anyway, maybe both.

大同小異

Mike Sigman
01-07-2009, 12:30 PM
It's rather pointless to engage in a discussion on a forum where distraction and frippery dilutes the thread. If the O.P. and anyone really interested in functional discussion of the topic wants to take it to QiJin or some other forum, p.m. me.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
01-07-2009, 02:06 PM
It's rather pointless to engage in a discussion on a forum where distraction and frippery dilutes the thread. If the O.P. and anyone really interested in functional discussion of the topic wants to take it to QiJin or some other forum, p.m. me.

The question was: How many current Aikidoists were taught this almost universal form of bokken-swinging that Ueshiba was using as far back as the 1930's, I wonder?

The answer was the bokken swinging that I saw in the video I have seen and done in training in a different order and I said who and where and in what lineage. Frippery, if you like -- it was the answer to your question. You are free to disbelieve my answer, which is fine.

The proverbs noted exist to avoid repeated mistakes. I am simply not again engaging any tired dispute over bona fides on standards of subtle movement that are neither in my training lineage, nor within my physical observation to see, or feel and repeat.

The bokken swinging in the essential forms seen, however, emphatically is, on both counts.

oisin bourke
01-07-2009, 06:34 PM
If you wish to comment or pose a question on a subject tangental to the thread (especially when the thread involves a fairly technical discussion), why don't you open a new thread and post the relevant quote along with your questions/comments?

That's what I did.

Anyway, it's a moot point at this stage...

Erick Mead
01-07-2009, 09:11 PM
If you wish to comment or pose a question on a subject tangental to the thread (especially when the thread involves a fairly technical discussion), why don't you open a new thread and post the relevant quote along with your questions/comments?

That's what I did.

Anyway, it's a moot point at this stage...It didn't seem tangential. I spoke directly at the question. Then a bit of personality intervened, which I tried to decline.

It doesn't seem moot anyhow. There still ought to be plenty to discuss.

Erick Mead
01-08-2009, 01:07 AM
... the Hara becoming hyper conditioned for a specific skill... One of the things that got me thinking about these things apart from my own training and experiences with others is the following quote:YLC) The thing is every style has their own specific way of doing things and not all are compatible with each other. I have only trained in Dai style solely since I was around 20 years old, so I only know Dai style. What I do know though, that my art has our own unique body requirements, that I believe other styles do not have.

For example say you practice Dai style and Taiji, they have completely different requirements. Dai style has a small, compact and narrow frame and ever strike has a contraction, followed by a expansion, this is achieved by rolling the dan tian on a vertical axis. Taiji does not have this, so practicing Taiji will damage your Dai style and vice versa. I don't believe it is good to try and practice many arts at the same time, to me my art gives me all I need and more. ... but I don't really mind people training in a grappling style as long as they train technique over brute force. The reason I don't mind is as long as they don't train striking from other arts, otherwise they will never progress as other art's don't use dan tian like we do.Let me speak to this from an Aikido standpoint and try to relate my understanding of the biomechanics and how the use of this area may differ depending on application. Abe's quote you give above, and the mention of the area of the hara "the size of an apple" are both speaking of the pyramidalis muscles and the related obliques. Acting bilaterally and continuously, these stabilize the forward shear created by by resisting lateral load with proper lower spine curvature. An excellent and very readable web resource to get the spinal mechanics associated with this use of the hara in sustaining conventional lateral loads is found here: http://www.spinalfitness.com/

The other structural function of the pyramidalis, specifically, is to stabilize the pubic symphysis, in lateral torque. This is a fairly immobile joint at the front of the pubis. It can be damaged by having one limb levered out from the torso while in a loaded condition, often acutely in a tackle, but is also seen in swimmers whose breaststroke causes repetitive use injury from having an strong, but asymmetrical, or uncoordinated stroke.

In martial arts where the modulation of periodic torque is a primary mechanical mode (such as aikido) then the pyramidalis acting bilaterally alternately compress and release action on the pubic symphysis to stiffen or relax as appropriate that elastic hinge, so that the continuity of compression or tension is maintained from the torso to the undercarriage, as the body accepts and delivers the torsional shears.

In Dai as it is described, the "vertical rotation of the hips" would required constant compression of the symphysis by the pyramidalis both to stabilize the forward shear from the spine in absorbing the reaction of the strike at impact as well as to ensure integrity in the mechanism in the vertical plane from becoming asymmetrical at the hinge in the pubis.

I can see that torque sensitive arts like Aikido use different aspects of this sytem.The left pyramidalis for example carries the line of action of its rightside external oblique over to the left side of the pelvis. This means that in unilateral action of the oblique (as in striking),torque naturally stabilizes the symphysis in compression, since the pyramidalis extends the action of the oblique across the gap. to pull it closed. The pyramidalis adds further to that stability, both because it extends the effective arc of the oblique's action and because of its own contraction force.

Both the external and internal obliques act as antagonists to the diaphram to compress the abdomen for exhalation, and the pyraqmidalis acts with the rectus to tauten the abdomen. Acting together they modulate the rigidity of the tube and therefore its efficiency in transmitting impulse (rigid tube versus a slack sock). , and modulating how static torque deformations of the torso are received and stored, and then delivered.

And that's what I saw in the video. :)

Thomas Campbell
01-27-2009, 07:13 PM
[snip].... we were just talking on QiJin about some of the basic (core exercise) training in Dai Xinyi's "Squatting Monkey" and how it relates to some of the suburi that Ueshiba was filmed doing back in the 1930's. The point I was making in the discussion was that the Dai Xinyi's method of storing power and then striking is not functionally different from what is considered "good technique" in a number of Asian martial arts, and surprisingly Ueshiba can be seen doing the same store-and-release in his kenpo. [snip]
Mike Sigman

http://www.56.com/u60/v_NDA3NjA0MTc.html

Mike--

With respect to use of the hara/dantien and store/release, do you see similarity between the Dai Xinyi and Ueshiba on the one hand (per your remarks above) and the Wu/Hao taijiquan demonstration in the video clip above, specifically between 0:58 and 1:25?

Thanks for your feedback.

Mike Sigman
01-27-2009, 07:23 PM
http://www.56.com/u60/v_NDA3NjA0MTc.htmlWith respect to use of the hara/dantien and store/release, do you see similarity between the Dai Xinyi and Ueshiba on the one hand (per your remarks above) and the Wu/Hao taijiquan demonstration in the video clip above, specifically between 0:58 and 1:25? Yes, it's the same thing, same principles. The point is in the old saying that "there is only one jin". What you're seeing is a more sophisticated development of the same core techniques. If you examine closely what is done... well, let's say that Ueshiba or the Dai Family Xinyi guy saw the tape of the Wu-Hao guy's performance: they'd understand and maybe say "oh... I didn't know I could have kept developing in this direction and gotten those results". Maybe the Dai Xinyi guy would already know it, though... hard to say. I.e., it's all the same thing.

Best.

Mike

Mike Sigman
01-27-2009, 07:36 PM
Same thing, BTW, with this 94-year-old guy. There is no substantive difference between this type of power and what Ueshiba called "the secret of Aikdio":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Thomas Campbell
01-27-2009, 07:37 PM
Thanks Mike. It seemed to be along the same lines, but I just wanted to check that I was seeing some of what you were discussing.

I appreciate the quick response.

Erick Mead
01-28-2009, 12:37 AM
http://www.56.com/u60/v_NDA3NjA0MTc.html

Mike--

With respect to use of the hara/dantien and store/release, do you see similarity between the Dai Xinyi and Ueshiba on the one hand (per your remarks above) and the Wu/Hao taijiquan demonstration in the video clip above, specifically between 0:58 and 1:25? Dunno 'bout xinyi - but in aikido terms it's funetori, no question, full cycle, complete with the initial rock back and the asagao expression in the arms and hands -- just really tight and sharp. Nice.

Thomas Campbell
01-30-2009, 01:17 PM
the asagao expression in the arms and hands

Erick,

What does "asagao" translate into English as?

Thanks for your help.

oisin bourke
01-30-2009, 05:28 PM
Erick,

What does "asagao" translate into English as?

Thanks for your help.

"Morning Glory" as in the flower. In DR parlance, it refers to a hand shape where the two hands touch along the "little finger" line of the hand.

Kondo Sensei talks about this in an interview on Aikido Journal and hints that it is Gokui. It took him years to understand the "true meaning" of Asagao.

Erick Mead
01-30-2009, 08:58 PM
"Morning Glory" as in the flower. In DR parlance, it refers to a hand shape where the two hands touch along the "little finger" line of the hand.

Kondo Sensei talks about this in an interview on Aikido Journal and hints that it is Gokui. It took him years to understand the "true meaning" of Asagao.No doubt, I do not have the whole of the "true meaning." DTR may hold the koryu gokui but they don't own the nature they use to reveal it. I have what nature and experience reveal -- the hand position is not all it is. It is the expression of a whole manner of movement. Look at the video of the flower blossoming. http://www.naturefootage.com/video_clips/BF41_159

Like the flower, the hands begin to spread from the center, leading the arms spiraling curving and opening outward and spread the chest and belly open -- so that the fore-aft dimension shrinks while the lateral dimension extends. Reverse it and the arms roll inward into a spiral extension forward while their lateral dimension becomes smaller.

Look carefully at the blossom -- it swells at the base as with a intaking breath, and as it unfurls and expands the base shrinks again as with a released breath. Kokyu drives the movement from the hara -- asagao is the revealed shape of the breath spiral.

Windings, I believe some use to describe what the Chinese arts address in the nature of chan-si jin. Shear is the operative mechanical principle, but it does not work unless it propagates from the center and back again in the nature of breath.

One secret is that no change in length occurs, and no leverage is directly employed to expand or retract the body -- as the arm (and by extension the rest of the body) retracts in one dimension, it simultaneously extends in the other, (in-yo ho) 90 degrees out of phase with any "resistance" experienced and with relatively little energy -- this is asagao as I mean it. The proverbial "no inch" punch is simply completing the last bit of this extension in closing -- as THIS is using both opening and closing in succession -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z6jg4NIBrM&feature=related(opening first, then closing at 5:30-6:00) and (closing first, then opening at 6:15-6:30) As Tissier Shihan empasizes it is not merely about the arm but about how you move the body, which is harder to describe, except to say that is is the same -- just harder to visualize

Emphasis on tegatana in Aikido carries this message in a related form, and in dynamic terms in many of the aiki-taiso. Both parts are found in sanchin no kata, and it is also in o chiburi, and other sword movement - opening asagaois in suriage, for example.

Dai Zhi Qiang
06-22-2009, 11:25 PM
Let me speak to this from an Aikido standpoint and try to relate my understanding of the biomechanics and how the use of this area may differ depending on application. Abe's quote you give above, and the mention of the area of the hara "the size of an apple" are both speaking of the pyramidalis muscles and the related obliques. Acting bilaterally and continuously, these stabilize the forward shear created by by resisting lateral load with proper lower spine curvature. An excellent and very readable web resource to get the spinal mechanics associated with this use of the hara in sustaining conventional lateral loads is found here: http://www.spinalfitness.com/

The other structural function of the pyramidalis, specifically, is to stabilize the pubic symphysis, in lateral torque. This is a fairly immobile joint at the front of the pubis. It can be damaged by having one limb levered out from the torso while in a loaded condition, often acutely in a tackle, but is also seen in swimmers whose breaststroke causes repetitive use injury from having an strong, but asymmetrical, or uncoordinated stroke.

In martial arts where the modulation of periodic torque is a primary mechanical mode (such as aikido) then the pyramidalis acting bilaterally alternately compress and release action on the pubic symphysis to stiffen or relax as appropriate that elastic hinge, so that the continuity of compression or tension is maintained from the torso to the undercarriage, as the body accepts and delivers the torsional shears.

In Dai as it is described, the "vertical rotation of the hips" would required constant compression of the symphysis by the pyramidalis both to stabilize the forward shear from the spine in absorbing the reaction of the strike at impact as well as to ensure integrity in the mechanism in the vertical plane from becoming asymmetrical at the hinge in the pubis.

I can see that torque sensitive arts like Aikido use different aspects of this sytem.The left pyramidalis for example carries the line of action of its rightside external oblique over to the left side of the pelvis. This means that in unilateral action of the oblique (as in striking),torque naturally stabilizes the symphysis in compression, since the pyramidalis extends the action of the oblique across the gap. to pull it closed. The pyramidalis adds further to that stability, both because it extends the effective arc of the oblique's action and because of its own contraction force.

Both the external and internal obliques act as antagonists to the diaphram to compress the abdomen for exhalation, and the pyraqmidalis acts with the rectus to tauten the abdomen. Acting together they modulate the rigidity of the tube and therefore its efficiency in transmitting impulse (rigid tube versus a slack sock). , and modulating how static torque deformations of the torso are received and stored, and then delivered.

And that's what I saw in the video. :)

Thanks for putting in a solid effort to explain things in a more scientific manner. I myself have no professional anatomy training, so I only go by my own training experience and from watching others in my style (Dai Xin Yi Quan).

In my style we focus on creating a cavity underneath the sternum, which is achieved by not sucking it in, but by the consequence of certain parts of the body being aligned. Shoulders and elbows squeezed, the chest contracted and the back arched.

There is no trying to roll anything until the area (dan tian) has built up physically, so for noobs, you are told to sit there and cultivate structure, first by standing and then by contracting and expanding, in squatting monkey posture.

This posture, though looking simple is very complicated with a lot of things happening inside and outside the body. Not learning is properly can lead to hypertension/ high blood pressure and unnecessary pressure on the lungs and heart and also the spine, due to the vertical movement of the backbone.

Rolling from the hips maybe is not the most accurate expression of what is happening as when you meet someone who is high level, there is little movement from the kua, but the area (which is as large as a rugby ball on my teacher) will rotate independently of anything else going on externally.

Dan tian in our style is the engine which drives all of the moves, without this in our system we are severely handicapped.

jss
06-24-2009, 08:40 AM
There is no trying to roll anything until the area (dan tian) has built up physically, so for noobs, you are told to sit there and cultivate structure, first by standing and then by contracting and expanding, in squatting monkey posture.
Then would you agree with the following:
* Standing develops a structure that ties the body together.
* Contracting and expanding that structure develops the dan tian, since the dan tian is the center of that structure.
* Once the dan tian has been sufficiently developed, you can use the dan tian to actively control that structure.

Dai Zhi Qiang
06-25-2009, 10:09 PM
Then would you agree with the following:
* Standing develops a structure that ties the body together.
* Contracting and expanding that structure develops the dan tian, since the dan tian is the center of that structure.
* Once the dan tian has been sufficiently developed, you can use the dan tian to actively control that structure.

Spot on

DZQ

jss
06-26-2009, 07:36 AM
Spot on
That's good to know, but I was hoping for a more elaborate answer.:D

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-01-2009, 09:59 PM
That's good to know, but I was hoping for a more elaborate answer.:D

Ok, no problem, I can go into it more, but I would like you to ask me specific questions as I am not really sure what to say.

Please read through the articles on my blog on squatting monkey as well as the interviews with my teacher as they do talk in some detail of our methods.

Regards

DZQ

Mike Sigman
07-01-2009, 10:31 PM
Dai family Xin Yi has a number of branches. Doing a quick search on Jon and his style, I get the feeling that we're seeing something of an internecine battle about a "style" and who is the real representative of the style, and so on. Couldn't the discussion stick with "how to do these things" rather than devolve to who properly represents Master Yan and so on? Because that's the path I see this discussion ultimately leading to, if it's not cut off at the pass. And I've seen these things for too many years to not recognize the signs:

http://www.tai-chi.co.nz/Addressing%20Mr%20Jon%20Dyer%20%28Unfortunately%29.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-01-2009, 11:14 PM
Dai family Xin Yi has a number of branches. Doing a quick search on Jon and his style, I get the feeling that we're seeing something of an internecine battle about a "style" and who is the real representative of the style, and so on. Couldn't the discussion stick with "how to do these things" rather than devolve to who properly represents Master Yan and so on? Because that's the path I see this discussion ultimately leading to, if it's not cut off at the pass. And I've seen these things for too many years to not recognize the signs:

http://www.tai-chi.co.nz/Addressing%20Mr%20Jon%20Dyer%20%28Unfortunately%29.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Hi Mike,

Thanks for rejoining the discussion.

I was enjoying this thread as it had a chance for me to compare other methods (Aiki, etc) with what I practice. I would rather not bring up any of the previous problems with my old teacher to contaminate this thread, so I would rather not go there, but if you are interested in talking to me about anything, you are welcome to PM me here or email me at daixinyi@gmail.com.

Now lets get back to the thread shall we.

All the best

Jon Dyer.

oisin bourke
07-02-2009, 01:09 PM
Ok, no problem, I can go into it more, but I would like you to ask me specific questions as I am not really sure what to say.

Please read through the articles on my blog on squatting monkey as well as the interviews with my teacher as they do talk in some detail of our methods.

Regards

DZQ

Hello Jon,

I posted some links to your post in the introduction section. The two links showed examples of "reacting" against an opponent's force, as aiki arts are wont to do.

My question is: do you have this this "reactive" style within your art as opposed to the "proactive" method of striking, and. if so, does the usage of the "hara" differ according to the method ?

Thanks,

Mike Sigman
07-02-2009, 02:03 PM
if so, does the usage of the "hara" differ according to the method ?
There's a person named Li Tai Liang who does workshops on Dai-family Xinyi in the U.S. He's a very good fighter and at one time trained the Beijing San-da team, IIRC. The style is sort of a small-frame style, but the important point to look at is that Xinyi (properly "Xinyi Liu He") is a system that uses the ki/kokyu skills in a manner called "six harmonies" because of the way the body is moved as a winding unit. Aikido has the same core skills, but tends for the most part to be more linear, so the usage of the dantien/hara is going to be different in the completeness of the relationships with the body. I.e., although all the styles are going to have essential elements like ki-relationships and kokyu/jin usage, the actual methods of tying these things together is going to differ across the spectrum of CMA's and JMA's.

My 2 cents.

Mike

sorokod
07-02-2009, 04:25 PM
Hi Pat:

It's this one; between 7:33 and 7:50

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ



Rinjiro Shirata sensei does something very similar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-03-2009, 07:25 AM
Hello Jon,

I posted some links to your post in the introduction section. The two links showed examples of "reacting" against an opponent's force, as aiki arts are wont to do.

My question is: do you have this this "reactive" style within your art as opposed to the "proactive" method of striking, and. if so, does the usage of the "hara" differ according to the method ?

Thanks,

Hi,

I had a quick look at the 2 Aiki video's which were nice by the way (no one in NZ does traditional Aiki Jiujitsu to my knowledge, though I had hear some rumours that there was a group in Rotorua, which is North of where I stay). I did some very brief training in Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido, which was fun, but other things kept my attention more at that time in my life.

As for the question over "reactive" as opposed to "proactive", I am not sure if I 100% understand what you mean (forgive me for being thick, lol).

Do you mean that does our dan tian methods differ when we are neutralising or attacking?

Jon

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-03-2009, 07:37 AM
There's a person named Li Tai Liang who does workshops on Dai-family Xinyi in the U.S. He's a very good fighter and at one time trained the Beijing San-da team, IIRC. The style is sort of a small-frame style, but the important point to look at is that Xinyi (properly "Xinyi Liu He") is a system that uses the ki/kokyu skills in a manner called "six harmonies" because of the way the body is moved as a winding unit. Aikido has the same core skills, but tends for the most part to be more linear, so the usage of the dantien/hara is going to be different in the completeness of the relationships with the body. I.e., although all the styles are going to have essential elements like ki-relationships and kokyu/jin usage, the actual methods of tying these things together is going to differ across the spectrum of CMA's and JMA's.

My 2 cents.

Mike

XYLHQ generally refers to the Chinese Islamic Xin Yi system as treasured by the Hui nationality in China. I previously studied this system (Lushan aka Mai Zhuangtu and Luoyang) for 3 or 4 years before deciding to concentrate on the Shanxi XY (non muslim) sect.

Yes the theory of Liu He comes from this system (or originally from Liu He Qiang- 6 harmony spear) which is said what Ji Long Feng (creator of XYLHQ) based his art on. Though after going to Henan (accompanying my ex teacher) I saw very little internal skill from it's practitioners. This is not me being bias towards the Henan style (as I did practice this at this time I went there) but I never saw anyone with the same quality of movement as my present teacher, which led me to believe that the Shanxi style refined the Henan style (as the Shanxi style is based on the Henan style as well as Preying Mantis, etc).

Xin Yi Dao (which top exponents are Li Tai Liang and Yang Fang Sheng) is a combination of Dai Xin YI Quan (coming from Wang Yin Hai), Che Yi Zhai Xing Yi Quan, Shuai Chiao, San Da and Ba Gua and Taiji Quan.

There is quite a bit of difference between what Li and Yang does. From what I have seen Li doing, it is more orthodox Dai, but Yang's expression is much, much different.

Jon.

Mike Sigman
07-03-2009, 08:54 AM
Yes the theory of Liu He comes from this system (or originally from Liu He Qiang- 6 harmony spear) which is said what Ji Long Feng (creator of XYLHQ) based his art on. Liu He (six-harmonies) theory comes from much further back than Ji Long Feng. At one time, many current and precursor arts all had "Liu He" as part of their full name. The "internal" skills were codified centuries and centuries ago, not just recently.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-03-2009, 04:02 PM
Liu He (six-harmonies) theory comes from much further back than Ji Long Feng. At one time, many current and precursor arts all had "Liu He" as part of their full name. The "internal" skills were codified centuries and centuries ago, not just recently.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

I would be very interested in where and when you think this theory comes from as far as I know Liu He theory comes from Ji Long Feng who lived at the later period of the Ming dynasty ( from 1368 to 1644), which is roughly 400 years ago.

I would hardly call 400 years ago recent.

Regards

Jon

Mike Sigman
07-03-2009, 04:17 PM
I would be very interested in where and when you think this theory comes from as far as I know Liu He theory comes from Ji Long Feng who lived at the later period of the Ming dynasty ( from 1368 to 1644), which is roughly 400 years ago.

I would hardly call 400 years ago recent.
Well, look at what I said... "Liu He" was and is part of many martial arts, including many ancient ones. Six harmonies movement with its mode of dantien usage comes from way back. Unless Ji Long Feng had a time machine, all those other arts didn't descend from him. Do you think, for instance, that Tanglang Liu He is an offshoot of Xinyi? ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-03-2009, 08:27 PM
Well, look at what I said... "Liu He" was and is part of many martial arts, including many ancient ones. Six harmonies movement with its mode of dantien usage comes from way back. Unless Ji Long Feng had a time machine, all those other arts didn't descend from him. Do you think, for instance, that Tanglang Liu He is an offshoot of Xinyi? ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Hi,

From what I can see, Liu He Tang Lang Quan was formed in the mid Qing (1644–1912) by master Wei San, using a combination of Shaolin Liu He Quan and Tang Lang Quan.

Liu He theory was first popularised (if not founded as I have no proof otherwise by Ji Long Feng). In XYLHQ they have a chuan pu called “Ten Principles of Xinyi Liuhe”. I decided to post some from it.

“The background of this book include Li Shi Ming of Henan in the 11th year of Emperor Yong Zheng, Wang Zhi Cheng from Xin An, Wang Chen Ling of Ru Province in the 19th year 7th month of Emperor Qian Long, Ma Ding Zhen of Ru Province from 44th year of Qian Long.”

It then states, “There is no one style of martial arts, who knows who is the real founder of martial arts? Liuhe came from Shanxi Ji Long Feng, a man who lived in the waning reign of Ming Dynasty, skilled in the spear, known as ‘God’ by the populace. As quoted from this man, “In times of war, the spear can be a weapon to protect oneself, but in times of peace, when there are no more weapons, and yet the unexpected happens, how should one defend oneself?”

Thus, he began to change the spear skills into unarmed combat skills, gather all the theories into one book, developed a million moves (translator: again ‘million’ in Chinese is contextual, it means very many), named the martial art as Liuhe, with six forms. Why only one book? This is because there is only one soul from the heart. Why so many moves? This is because moves can change and develop. What is Liuhe (Six Harmonies)? The heart harmonises with the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe.

I would like you to elaborate on dan tian usage from earlier time periods and if you could name specific styles or give me some examples. Cause I went to many different schools in China (saw nearly every XYLHQ style as well as met many other Nei Jia Quan) and no one had the ability to rotate the dan tian (on a vertical plane) like my present teacher or carried the same type of physical development.

I am not saying that other styles cannot have this, but so far I never met anyone (would love to). I have friends who are Chen style practitioners, but their dan tian methods are not the same from comparison.

Jon

Mike Sigman
07-03-2009, 10:31 PM
It then states, "There is no one style of martial arts, who knows who is the real founder of martial arts? I'm taking the liberty of splitting two sentences you ran together. The pertinent sentence is this one above because it essentially refers to a principle that tracks back to Yin-yang, Heaven-Earth-Man. Liu He is a tenet of "natural movement" which far preceeds Ji Long Feng. Six-Harmonies movement is based on the core principles of Yin-Yang, Ren-Du meridians, and so on. Ji Long Feng did not invent this anymore than he invented Yin-Yang and the Muscle-Tendon Channels. Liu-He is from these basics, not Xinyi. Liuhe came from Shanxi Ji Long Feng, a man who lived in the waning reign of Ming Dynasty, skilled in the spear, known as ‘God' by the populace. As quoted from this man, "In times of war, the spear can be a weapon to protect oneself, but in times of peace, when there are no more weapons, and yet the unexpected happens, how should one defend oneself?"

Thus, he began to change the spear skills into unarmed combat skills, gather all the theories into one book, developed a million moves (translator: again ‘million' in Chinese is contextual, it means very many), named the martial art as Liuhe, with six forms. Why only one book? This is because there is only one soul from the heart. Why so many moves? This is because moves can change and develop. What is Liuhe (Six Harmonies)? The heart harmonises with the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe.

I would like you to elaborate on dan tian usage from earlier time periods and if you could name specific styles or give me some examples. Cause I went to many different schools in China (saw nearly every XYLHQ style as well as met many other Nei Jia Quan) and no one had the ability to rotate the dan tian (on a vertical plane) like my present teacher or carried the same type of physical development.

I am not saying that other styles cannot have this, but so far I never met anyone (would love to). I have friends who are Chen style practitioners, but their dan tian methods are not the same from comparison.
Hmmmm. This is too much of a basic principle for me to have to debate. It's sort of like the basic qi/jin skills.... there has to be a reasonable threshold to the argument before it's worthwhile to engage in. My suggestion is that you take a moment to understand that "natural movement" has a lot to do with Liu He. Ji Long Feng did not invent this... he simply used it in his art.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-04-2009, 09:53 PM
I'm taking the liberty of splitting two sentences you ran together. The pertinent sentence is this one above because it essentially refers to a principle that tracks back to Yin-yang, Heaven-Earth-Man. Liu He is a tenet of "natural movement" which far preceeds Ji Long Feng. Six-Harmonies movement is based on the core principles of Yin-Yang, Ren-Du meridians, and so on. Ji Long Feng did not invent this anymore than he invented Yin-Yang and the Muscle-Tendon Channels. Liu-He is from these basics, not Xinyi. Hmmmm. This is too much of a basic principle for me to have to debate. It's sort of like the basic qi/jin skills.... there has to be a reasonable threshold to the argument before it's worthwhile to engage in. My suggestion is that you take a moment to understand that "natural movement" has a lot to do with Liu He. Ji Long Feng did not invent this... he simply used it in his art.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

If we are talking about Chinese philosophy (which terminology was adopted by Kung Fu styles later on) than yes, Wu Ji, Yin Yang, San Cai, Si Xiang, Ba Gua, Liu He, etc, etc predate the Ming, but these theories have nothing to do with martial arts originally.

Liu He as expressed in Chinese philosophy refers to the top, bottom and 4 directions. Shaolin Liu He Quan uses this theory and later adopted the same theory from XYLHQ from what I have been told.

Jon.

Mike Sigman
07-04-2009, 11:29 PM
If we are talking about Chinese philosophy (which terminology was adopted by Kung Fu styles later on) than yes, Wu Ji, Yin Yang, San Cai, Si Xiang, Ba Gua, Liu He, etc, etc predate the Ming, but these theories have nothing to do with martial arts originally.

Liu He as expressed in Chinese philosophy refers to the top, bottom and 4 directions. Shaolin Liu He Quan uses this theory and later adopted the same theory from XYLHQ from what I have been told.Well, I don't feel like it's important enough to get into. Even the basic postures of Open and Close should be enough to answer the question for you.

And BTW.... there's not really that much difference between many forms of Shaolin and the so-called Neijia arts, so your comments about "Shaolin" aren't really that meaningful in relation to six harmonies movement.

The interesting thing to me is that I have never heard of anyone who believed that Liu He was specific to Xinyi or Xingyi before. It's a very ancient concept that is part of the famous idea of "natural movement" and thus tied to Yin-Yang, Heng-Ha, Five Elements, and so on.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

mathewjgano
07-05-2009, 05:56 PM
I've heard mention from Rob about "pulling" the hara toward the back (assuming I'm recalling correctly); I've also heard my own sensei describe the need of having the feeling of "sitting back" when doing suburi. Would anyone be willing to elaborate or draw comparisons with other arts as to why this might be a good thing to do?

Mike Sigman
07-05-2009, 06:07 PM
I've heard mention from Rob about "pulling" the hara toward the back (assuming I'm recalling correctly); I've also heard my own sensei describe the need of having the feeling of "sitting back" when doing suburi. Would anyone be willing to elaborate or draw comparisons with other arts as to why this might be a good thing to do?Ultimately, the "Squatting Monkey" that Jon describes does just that. If you want to look at it from the traditional sense, the idea is to "breathe the qi in through the perineum (Bai Hui), up through the tailbone to the MingMen (L3) and then drops down into the dantien".

Hope that helps. Check with your local resident experts. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

mathewjgano
07-05-2009, 09:11 PM
Ultimately, the "Squatting Monkey" that Jon describes does just that. If you want to look at it from the traditional sense, the idea is to "breathe the qi in through the perineum (Bai Hui), up through the tailbone to the MingMen (L3) and then drops down into the dantien".

Hope that helps. Check with your local resident experts. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

It does and I will! Thank you!

Mike Sigman
07-05-2009, 10:05 PM
Oops... Perineum area is Hui Yin. What I get for dashing off a post. Sorry.

Mike

jss
07-06-2009, 12:19 PM
As for the question over "reactive" as opposed to "proactive", I am not sure if I 100% understand what you mean (forgive me for being thick, lol).
As Oisin hasn't replied yet...
"Reactive" would be unbalancing/throwing someone by using the force they are using e.g. to push you. "Proactive" would be just releasing power to strike someone.

oisin bourke
07-07-2009, 08:03 AM
As Oisin hasn't replied yet...
"Reactive" would be unbalancing/throwing someone by using the force they are using e.g. to push you. "Proactive" would be just releasing power to strike someone.

Yes, that is generally what I was getting at. Apologies. I've been very busy.

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-07-2009, 08:21 PM
Yes, that is generally what I was getting at. Apologies. I've been very busy.

As for what tactical responses Dai use I would say the reaction is generated by what the opponent is doing. People get the wrong impression of XY (XYLHQ,Xing Yi) that is a very aggressive linear art which just charges in there to engage your opponent, which is a real generalisation.

Dai Xin Yi Quan has a lot of similar qualities to good Taiji Quan. Ting Jin (listening skills) are very refined and there is also an abundance of peng jin (rebounding force) used in close quarters as that is the range Dai is most effective in.

Shoulders, knees, low kicks and elbows are frequently employed. Dai does not favour the head as emphasised in Henan XYLHQ due to their belief that using the head can restrict the vision when attacking and also presents the neck as a target.

So defence and offence mutually combine, when you are defending you are attacking and vice versa. If there is a hole in the opponents posture you attack if there are no holes then create one.

JB

jss
07-08-2009, 04:48 AM
But is there a difference in usage of the hara/dantien when issuing peng jin (rebounding force) versus doing a shoulder strike?

Mike Sigman
07-08-2009, 03:41 PM
But is there a difference in usage of the hara/dantien when issuing peng jin (rebounding force) versus doing a shoulder strike?Hi Joep:

I think your question is more about technique than "use of the hara". Generally speaking the entire set of hara-usage skills (ki/kokyu/qi/jin) is fixed. There is really no "here's how we do ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills differently from other people".... there is only a difference in the completeness and purity of the skills among different styles. And yet even within styles there are different levels of achievement and focus (Ueshiba was better than Tohei who was in turn better than Yakamazuki, etc.).

So if you accept that the only really relevant discussion about baseline/hara skills is the completeness of the skills, then the remainder of the discussion tends to default to the strategies and techniques with which the skills were applied. But that's more of a discussion about technique, not hara usage, as I said.

Incidentally, peng jin is not really "rebounding force" specifically, although generally you could track it back semantically to peng jin. Peng jin is the primary jin, but if you use for a rebound/bounce, it's probably going to be called something else. ;)

Best.

Mike

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-08-2009, 04:24 PM
But is there a difference in usage of the hara/dantien when issuing peng jin (rebounding force) versus doing a shoulder strike?

Hmm.. interesting question.

Not really how to explain it, but I guess it could be the short jin vs the long jin. Long is to bounce people away and the short is to damage the target putting in a short jerking pulse (dou jin- shaking force).

Every move in Dai has to have the trade mark contraction and expansion of the body with the dan tian rolling.

JB

jss
07-09-2009, 08:36 AM
Not really how to explain it, but I guess it could be the short jin vs the long jin.
So the dantien/hara does something different for short jin vs long jin? Wherein lies the difference, then?

Dai Zhi Qiang
07-10-2009, 06:35 AM
So the dantien/hara does something different for short jin vs long jin? Wherein lies the difference, then?

I don't think there is any difference in how the dan tian coordinates with the movement, but is just in the velocity of how the force is applied.

Jay

judojo
07-12-2009, 08:59 PM
Hi to my fellow AIKIDOKA, I am interested in the topic The HARA or the Center Wieght and Mass of the TAI or Body. This Movable Human Body involves Energy or the Force, The different motions are from here. Both the ASHI or Foot are affecting the HARA, but during SEISAN and SAHO sometimes involves Hand to certain position, also during the Crawling Waza as Ukemi Hand Do the most. Even the UKEMI during the Nage Waza, do his position with Hara and fall.