What to do when someone engages you...

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[Marko Ilic]

So, what to do? A few days ago a guy was all I'm gonna beat ya all up. My friend was kinda scared. But I didn't have the guts to confront him about thinking he's all mighty.

What should I do when he again tries something like that? Should I stand up for my friend?

What would you do?

Thanks,
Marko

[Tony Wagstaffe]

So, what to do? A few days ago a guy was all I'm gonna beat ya all up. My friend was kinda scared. But I didn't have the guts to confront him about thinking he's all mighty.

What should I do when he again tries something like that? Should I stand up for my friend?

What would you do?

Thanks,
Marko

Nothing......... Unless he does..... Just keep an eye out for him if he happens to reappear again..... and don't antagonise him or give him any excuse to assault you or your friend, just stay polite and keep your distance......
I don't know how the law stands in your part of the woods, but any unwanted physical contact is classed as common assault in the UK and is punishable by law..... DNA and all that?
Anything above that is actual bodily harm, then grevious bodily harm, manslaughter, murder......... Just stay cool as you say across the pond
Always a tricky one...:cool:

Tony

[lbb]

So, what to do? A few days ago a guy was all I'm gonna beat ya all up. My friend was kinda scared. But I didn't have the guts to confront him about thinking he's all mighty.

What should I do when he again tries something like that? Should I stand up for my friend?

I'd say it depends on (among other things) how you and your friend got into that situation. Generically speaking, I've found one of the most successful de-escalation tactics to be to point out (in a neutral rather than threatening way) just how much trouble will result if the confrontation gets physical.

[Marko Ilic]

We got into it when we were playing table tennis. That guy comes and he's all like I wanna play get lost you guys. I agree with you saying how troubling the results be, but if he wants to fight even after that should i warn him that our Sensei told us not to fight and make sure that someone hears.

What do you think of this plan?

Thank you for all the reply's,
Marko

[Ron Tisdale]

Bad plan. The moment you mention "sensei", the guy is either aware of your training and planning how to make you look foolish, or aware of your training, and planning how to outsmart it.

Either way...if I *need* to fight, then I *need* all my weapons, including surprise if I should throw the fellow on his head. I'm not going to tell him in advance what I'm going to do.

Best,
Ron (over a table tennis game?? You're kidding right? Hand him the paddles and walk away!)

[Voitokas]

(over a table tennis game?? You're kidding right? Hand him the paddles and walk away!)Second that - smile and invite him to play winner, and if he's a jerk then walk away. I mean, who cares, right? A lot of fights (and probably wars) get started over the idea that honour is something that needs to be defended, but there is as much or more in avoiding a fight as engaging in one.

[John Connolly]

Hand him the paddles and leave (with the balls in your pocket). :cool:

[C. David Henderson]

:straightf Much preferable to the other way (the paddle in your pocket and...):straightf

[Ron Tisdale]

YIKES!

Did I start that??? :D

B,
R

[lifeafter2am]

Bad plan. The moment you mention "sensei", the guy is either aware of your training and planning how to make you look foolish, or aware of your training, and planning how to outsmart it.

Either way...if I *need* to fight, then I *need* all my weapons, including surprise if I should throw the fellow on his head. I'm not going to tell him in advance what I'm going to do.

Best,
Ron (over a table tennis game?? You're kidding right? Hand him the paddles and walk away!)

I could not agree with this more! Never, ever mention anything of the sort, it puts you at a great disadvantage if you do have to fight.

Although in this situation (because of the trivialness of the event) I would most likely agree with handing the paddles over, normally I don't cave to a-holes who pick on the (presumed) weak. I got in a fight in a similar situation, where some "tough guys" were doing almost the same thing to a handicapped kid (except it was with a video game in an arcade and they were trying to get the controller away from him). That I could not turn away from, and I didn't. But I also tend to look at situations as whether I can handle them or not, and what the legal standpoint would be as well. Show me a jury that would convict me of defending a handicapped kid from a group of bullies if they decided to press charges.

I can't tell you exactly what to do in your situation, as I don't believe that the world is black and white enough to have simple answers and I wasn't there to witness it (not that I don't trust your account, but eye-witness accounts are statistically inaccurate), but I certainly would not resort to violence, as I don't condone starting fights, only defending yourself or others should the need arise.

[mathewjgano]

So, what to do? A few days ago a guy was all I'm gonna beat ya all up. My friend was kinda scared. But I didn't have the guts to confront him about thinking he's all mighty.

What should I do when he again tries something like that? Should I stand up for my friend?

What would you do?

Thanks,
Marko

Hard to say of course. My general attitude is that I'm content to let idiots posture. In similar situations I've displayed that I really didn't care that much about what the bully was after...but I genuinely didn't care.
On the other hand...one idiot (one of my best friends) got his nose broken and he learned something from it. Yet on another hand, some folks don't learn well like that. I knew folks who took the Joe Pesci approach (his character in Casino), and they only know how to escalate. I think it's usually best to let the dog enjoy his bark.

[Ketsan]

So, what to do? A few days ago a guy was all I'm gonna beat ya all up. My friend was kinda scared. But I didn't have the guts to confront him about thinking he's all mighty.

What should I do when he again tries something like that? Should I stand up for my friend?

What would you do?

Thanks,
Marko

I tend to just look at them. Not stare, just stand nice and relaxed, make no threatening movements and I just keep my eyes on them and keep my distance. If they've announced their intention to fight then there's nothing to talk about, so I stay silent.

So far everyone I've done this to has cracked and found something better to do.

[Don_Modesto]

As usual, I agree with Ron--never threaten with having studied MA, you'll just be mocked. On the other hand, there's this bit of advertising: http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/2/Bad-ass-homie-vs-Kung-Fu-GRANDMASTER-459551.html

(Completely psyched out his opponent.)

[lifeafter2am]

As usual, I agree with Ron--never threaten with having studied MA, you'll just be mocked. On the other hand, there's this bit of advertising: http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/2/Bad-ass-homie-vs-Kung-Fu-GRANDMASTER-459551.html

(Completely psyched out his opponent.)

That was a great video! I totally thought the "homie" was going to give up, because he kept backing up and putting his hands down, like he didn't know what to do. Then ..... BAM!

*edit* I can't stop watching it, I find it sooo amusing! *edit*

[gregg block]

If he invades your space in an agressive manner DROP HIM. Other wise put your pride on the shelf, lay the paddles on the table and go have a beer!

[GeneC]

Imo, it depends on how much you want to fight, 'cause the first response could be ,"Well, ya got the easy part over with, Sunshine. Talkin' about it."

Really, this falls in the "Mindset" area- be aware of your surroundings and don't get yourself into that situation. Don't go into unlit reas. If you see folks in front of you , cross the street, take a different direction/route, walkin to a lit are/store, get yourself around other people, etc
All confrontatons should be considered serious, as they can escalate to be fatal real quickly. Any sign of being afraid or passive will enable the BG.
This is that big gray area in the gun world too, as by law we're legally able to use lethal force only in a felony situation, which this is not. You might want to consider taser. You do not want to allow the Bg to "get in your face", as it's be proven that a BG with a knife can get to you and stab/cut you from 21 ft away, pretty much before you can correctly respond (OODA loop issue). If you do not want to fight, I'd suggest taking a fighting stance and assert that you don not want to fight, but prepare for the worse. Do not turn your back on a bg EVER( alot of MA techniques have you doing that). Main thing is to try and find out why this bg has singled you out, but know, they think they can take you. If they just don't like the way you look, you may have no choice but to fight, but of course, we try to avoid that at all costs. My policy is to be friendly to all, but have a plan to kill them.

[Voitokas]

Where I come from we try to make friends before committing ourselves to enmity. It may sound naive, but I don't cross the street if someone's walking toward me - I smile and catch their eye and say "hi". If you don't feel like you're in a position to be aggressively nice yet, you might consider working on developing that confidence as part of your aikido practise. I would disagree with GeneC about guns and tasers and having a plan to kill your neighbours and such ;) - but I would agree with his suggestion to think about why your putative bully has singled you out. Learning how to be popular and well-liked will stand you in better stead in the long run than learning how to be tough.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Sounds like a case of bullying. Bullies have more at issue than a simple game of ping pong. Not always easy to deal with especially if you have to face them in the same environment everyday. Fighting of course should be the last resort, and you should try and de-escalate the situation as best you can. Ron's suggestion of walking away is a good one. If you have to come back the next day, and the next...and it continues to be an issue. Observe and see if there is something else going on that you might be able to skillfully solve to get this guy to stop.

Ping Pong is certainly not something on my high priority list to fight over.

If you are cornered and have no other option but to fight and defend yourself, well then you must do that. but ego and honor are not reasons IMO to ever fight.

[lbb]

I'd like to post a link to something that a very clued-in guy once wrote on the subject of "engaging". Take a read of this (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/browse_thread/thread/3cdae61ce66612ce/5bdbaefb4caa85fa?lnk=st&q=%22%22live+at+home%22%22++jeff+group%3Arec.martial-arts#5bdbaefb4caa85fa) and tell me what you think.

[Joe McParland]

I'd like to post a link to something that a very clued-in guy once wrote on the subject of "engaging". Take a read of this (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/browse_thread/thread/3cdae61ce66612ce/5bdbaefb4caa85fa?lnk=st&q=%22%22live+at+home%22%22++jeff+group%3Arec.martial-arts#5bdbaefb4caa85fa) and tell me what you think.

Who knows how the world did not change because someone was so attached to this concept of "living at home"? Living this way, with fear of acting or regret for not acting, is one definition of hell on earth.

If I must die,
I would hope that I leave with my body,
not before.

[C. David Henderson]

Regret can be laudanum for the soul; cloying and sometimes addictive.

I read the link to be more about consequences and choice; but I see your point, Joe.

Regards,

David

[Joe McParland]

Someday, my wife will leave me or I will leave her.
Someday, I will leave my children or they will leave me.
Someday, I will leave this house or this house will fall around me.
Time does this. We leave as we entered.

Living explicitly to keep what ultimately cannot be kept is one framework for decision making. Is it a good one?

If someone chooses to do or not to do so as not to lose the chance to sleep in his house tonight, then that house is already his grave. Conversely, a jail cell can be paradise if you are free.

I am dumbfounded to hear practitioners of budo say, "Think of what you have to lose," either in advance or in retrospect.

This is not to say "Fight!" and this is not to say "Don't fight!" This is not to say "Be overly cautious" and this is not to say "Be reckless." This is to say do what needs to be done given your circumstances. Then, once that moment is gone, leave it, without regret, knowing that the consequences of both what you did and what you did not do truly are unknowable.

The referenced link aside, let's return to the OP's situation. The moment passed, but he asks, essentially, what should he have done? Why is there any question at all? What is the source? Perhaps because he studied aikido and feels he didn't use it? Perhaps because he had an expectation of how things should have been and now he sees disparity? Is not one purpose of budo not to cut through this type of thinking?

Ah, my first New Year's rambling... ;)

[lbb]

Who knows how the world did not change because someone was so attached to this concept of "living at home"? Living this way, with fear of acting or regret for not acting, is one definition of hell on earth.

I'm inclined to think that you didn't read the link or at least, that you skipped the last couple of paragraphs. Either that, or you're the original humpty dumpty, redefining living where you want, with a partner and two children whom you love deeply, as "hell on earth".

[Joe McParland]

I'm inclined to think that you didn't read the link or at least, that you skipped the last couple of paragraphs. Either that, or you're the original humpty dumpty, redefining living where you want, with a partner and two children whom you love deeply, as "hell on earth".

I bow to your superior understanding.

[lbb]

I bow to your superior understanding.

Didn't mean to be snarky. It helps that I do know the guy personally. He's not naturally the turn-the-cheek type, but he has learned that when you live among other people, you have to pull in your horns a lot of the time. He's a happy person, hardly suffering through "hell on earth".

[GeneC]

Where I come from we try to make friends before committing ourselves to enmity. It may sound naive, but I don't cross the street if someone's walking toward me - I smile and catch their eye and say "hi"......

Jeremy, I'm begging you to reconsider purposely staying on the same side of the street with the intent to make eye contact and say,"Hi." Of course, extenuating circumstances prevail, but as a rule, it's wise to be cautious. Ounce of prevention, pound of cure.

***disclaimer- following is not particularly pleasant, not for the weak of stomach***

Afa, my personal philosophy, I've been in too many armed confrontations( When I had the "knife fight", I's in the hospital for a month, nothing to eat, but chewing on ice, fighting bile infection( potentially fatal), with enemas every hour. Wanna know the definition of gross? Throwing up diarrhea- yep, apparently when your intestines get outside your body {at that moment I remember thinking, "Hmm, that looks like toothpaste out of a tube"} they shut down, yet your liver still produces bile, when it backs up into your stomach, 'Katie bar the door', it's coming up- Exorcist style) hopefully you won't have to.

[C. David Henderson]

Someday, my wife will leave me or I will leave her.
Someday, I will leave my children or they will leave me.
Someday, I will leave this house or this house will fall around me.



Yes, just so, and we have only the effervescent now to make good on it all, as the goodbyes fall into place.

Regards

[lbb]

Clarence, while I sympathize with what you've gone through, surely you don't think that's a typical outcome of passing someone on the street and saying, "Hi". Is that in fact how your intestines came to be outside your body?

[Joe McParland]

Didn't mean to be snarky. It helps that I do know the guy personally. He's not naturally the turn-the-cheek type, but he has learned that when you live among other people, you have to pull in your horns a lot of the time. He's a happy person, hardly suffering through "hell on earth".

Thanks for that, Mary :)

I don't know the fellow, it's true, but I did try to read the piece with an open mind. I found it poignant, witty, and even touching; however, my gut reaction was that the discourse does not mesh with my own experience of Christianity (from my youth), other faiths (from interfaith studies), budo (from military service and subsequent martial arts studies), or most recently from zen studies.

Here is an experience I had last March (http://inexhaustiblethings.blogspot.com/2008/03/in-instant.html). I was with my then-seven-year-old son. Only through happenstance did an elderly gentleman intervene before I could have. I certainly ran the risk of leaving my son with the image of his father dead on the floor, it's true; but, that's only one hypothetical outcome. Another is that, for my having done nothing, the situation escalated, the wired security guard drew his weapon, got into a struggle and started firing, stray bullets killing random patrons including my son.

Who knows?

Now, to be clear, I did not go out of my way looking for a dangerous grocery store. I did not go looking for a fight. I did not relish the opportunity to test and prove my aikido skills. That is, nothing drove me to do something. Similarly, my thoughts in that moment were about moving my son to a safe distance so that I could act. That is, nothing drove me not to do something either.

You can ask my wife and daughter whether this makes me an idiot or if they feel less loved for it. In the end, though, this is who I am and that is the mind I consciously try to cultivate in my different endeavors.

By the way, here's a story (http://inexhaustiblethings.blogspot.com/2008/06/impulse-thought-and-regret.html) about the regret I felt in not having acted once plus all of the speculation. No aikido, just a set of dilemmas and hypothetical outcomes that exemplify these types of situations.

On not getting involved, maybe the most extreme case is highlighted by the famous poem, "First they came... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...)"

Not everyone gets the big Ghandi moment, or that Jesus Christ moment, or "Hold that hill, Soldier!" moment, but I suspect everyone encounters lighter versions of the same over a lifetime. How would we face them?

[mathewjgano]

Jeremy, I'm begging you to reconsider purposely staying on the same side of the street with the intent to make eye contact and say,"Hi." Of course, extenuating circumstances prevail, but as a rule, it's wise to be cautious. Ounce of prevention, pound of cure.


I agree with your general idea that people ought be prepared for anything: plan for the worst; hope for the best. Sometimes, if it's obvious to the attacker, stepping across the street inspires the chase too though. Sometimes though, it's stupid not to find a quick change in route. When I worked nights in an alley frequented by crack-heads and very very cheap prostitutes (and their pimps), I always looked them in the eye and smiled or gave a respectful nod, depending. But as you can likely attest, with some folks, it's better not to engage in any way.

[jennifer paige smith]

To the initial poster:
First :evaluate ma-ai, check your own ego and then determine the benefits engaging. Often the second step takes care of many problems. Cuz like, wudda you care if he's a jerk.

I agree with your general idea that people ought be prepared for anything: plan for the worst; hope for the best. Sometimes, if it's obvious to the attacker, stepping across the street inspires the chase too though. Sometimes though, it's stupid not to find a quick change in route. When I worked nights in an alley frequented by crack-heads and very very cheap prostitutes (and their pimps), I always looked them in the eye and smiled or gave a respectful nod, depending. But as you can likely attest, with some folks, it's better not to engage in any way.

It really is a lot like dog training. Some dogs need eye contact to establish respect in the pecking order and others take it as a direct challenge of dominance and will respond viciously. It's a combo of science and intuition that relies heavily on basic skills and an ability to adapt mid-stream. And we all make mistakes.

[DonMagee]

I have a strong rule to never backdown to a bully. In the original poster's situation I would of called his play and found out if he was bluffing. That said, I was bullied a lot in when I was younger and I learned that the very best way to stop a bully and sometimes get a friend is to knock him down.

Of course in that situation I would also be confident that my friend or friends would help. I'm really surprised a guy would bully 2 guys at once. In fact that would be the first thing I would probably point out to the aggressor.

However, my path is probably not the best path, and it has probably lead to unneeded trouble more often the I give it credit for. But I can tell you that I have never had to deal with the same person more then one after initiating this policy. Usually the confidence of one not only willing, but well prepared to fight is enough to back down even a confident bully.

Of course now that I carry a pistol most of the time I really need to rethink this tactic.

[GeneC]

Clarence, while I sympathize with what you've gone through, surely you don't think that's a typical outcome of passing someone on the street and saying, "Hi". Is that in fact how your intestines came to be outside your body?

Yes it was, only it wasn't me saying hi, nor them. Fact is they asked for a light (as in cigarette), but it could be anything , or nothing. As I said before, the extenuating circumstances'd cover, the time of day or night, part of town, how lit the place is, who's around, amount of general danger,etc.

[GeneC]

.......It really is a lot like dog training....

Speaking of that, what if it's not a person at all, but a big dog,or a pack of dogs, or a rabid dog, or raccoon, etc?

[Buck]

So, what to do? A few days ago a guy was all I'm gonna beat ya all up. My friend was kinda scared. But I didn't have the guts to confront him about thinking he's all mighty.

What should I do when he again tries something like that? Should I stand up for my friend?

What would you do?

Thanks,
Marko

As bully bait as an occupation, I have been dealing with bullies allot. Getting my share of pain and violence, I echo what Kevin said, to a point and I will go into that later. He is what he said,

"Sounds like a case of bullying. Bullies have more at issue than a simple game of ping pong. Not always easy to deal with especially if you have to face them in the same environment everyday. Fighting of course should be the last resort, and you should try and de-escalate the situation as best you can" That is far as I suggest to go.

Is the bully a gang member, or other dangerous sort. Or a leader of his own little gang. Does he look like he or they will use deadly force, i.e. weapon. How does he intimidate, what is his method of intimidation and how does he use it. From that what level of violence do you think he is willing to use if forced to. Do you see any weakness you can exploit, verbally or physically, or both to protect yourself.

See you have an advantage, first contact, and it was not a violent one. It means you can study him. Because your going to need a plan. Hey let's face it. You didn't stand up to him at first contact. This means in his mind you are weak, you have been dominated. You are equal now to your friend.

You two put your heads together, on how to solve the issue at the next point of contact depending on what type and how dangerous the bully is. Bullies use verbal force to control their targets, to intimidate them. If that doesn't work and they feel the target isn't a threat they will go to the next level of force and threaten or assault (a show of force). If that doesn't work force is the next level. If they can't verbally control you they will physically control you. Their goal is to get the compliance they want from their targets. Some bullies get an extra charge from inflicting pain.

Rule of thumb you have to have a plan and it must be tailored to that bully's style at all the levels of aggression possibly experienced from that bully. Mind you not all plans work or have the expected results. But, if a plan is successful it is sweet.

Here are some of my experiences, not every thing works. This is to just give you an idea. The first contact with two bullies was days before in store where I got shoulder bumped by two guys that looked like ex-cons. Little did I know that my ex-girl friend convinced two drug buddies to cut me because I stop dating her due to her new-old hobby of drug use. They had marked me as a target. A very difficult and volatile situation. I have two point encounters with these guys. The second occurred because I didn't confront them the first time. But it gave me an opportunity to see who and what I was dealing with and how to deal with the situation. I was unaware of why they where bullying me, until later.

At the first encounter of being bumped I should have turned and said something that lead them to think I wasn't worth the effort. I should have gotten into their heads. i.e. say something weird and crazy non-threatening, to a compliment and either way keep talking not letting them say anything back to me as I walked away. After all we are in public, they are bigger and out number me.

At the second encountered I used the weakness I found in each. Knowing that I would see them again, because that is what the told me, I got prepared. I feed their egos and exploited their obvious drug habit with conversation and interest. Doing so did de-escalate the mental psych-up needed to go to the next levels.

Golden rule don't reason with a bully, it doesn't work. Work to find a way to de-escalate the situation. Because if it turns violent he had the advantage. You don't want it to go to that level.

Golden rule number two, don't show fear or other emotions. When you do so that is something the bully is looking for. Use a poker face not reacting to intimidation or threats, or any thing else thrown at you. Don't mock, or try clever insults, well any insults for that matter. Don't reason or be too logical. Play it even, and play to what the bully's weakness. Stay calm, no fear, no sweat. Your goal is to deflate the energy built up to be release upon you as violence. If successful the bully will likely seek a target more suitable to get what the bully wants.

What ever the plan is both you and your friend have to work it.

There is no magic bullet when it comes to bullies. Each situation is different and calls for different approaches, and things. And they don't always work. Nothing is 100%. You use the wrong approach to get into their head, etc. Verbal response or even a visual communication works to stop a bully from going to the next level. Or the wrong approach or play can accelerate the bully to act.

Someone might say, well there is two of you and one of him jump his ____ beat the ____out of him. When he is down on the ground remind him why your were the wrong persons to mess with. That doesn't always work either, because bullies are also very insecure. And they just might decide to seek revenge with all they got when least expected.

I think it is better that the two of you work together to stop this bully. Find a weakness and exploit it to deflate the bully, let the adrenaline dump pass unused. Don't be a suitable target. Have a plan for your next encounter.

[jennifer paige smith]

Speaking of that, what if it's not a person at all, but a big dog,or a pack of dogs, or a rabid dog, or raccoon, etc?

Well, first off I think, in general, you're always better off behind 'em then in front of 'em.

There was a thread a while back about one specific dog incident a forum member encountered.....But I really think it depends on the persons sensitivity and training level, the moment and animal itself.
Unless, of course, the answer is the same one we applied when I worked at a pest control office. Picture this:

Ring-Ring
Me: Good Morning___________(insert business name here) pest control. Can I help you?
Customer: Yes, I have an ant problem. What do you do for ants?
Me: Um. We Kill Em.

Ring-Ring
Me: Good Morning___________(insert business name here) pest control. Can I help you?
Customer: Yes, I have an rodent problem. What do you do for rodents?
Me: Um. We Kill Em.

Ring-Ring
Me: Good Morning___________(insert business name here) pest control. Can I help you?
Customer: Yes, I have a Raccoon problem. What do you do for raccoons?
Me: Um. We Kill Em.


It also brings to mind a time when a raccoon was marauding around my backyard in town (I'm a country girl, now). He was creeping toward the house when my cat decided to get brave and all I could see was a huge vet bill on the horizon. Well, I guess I didn't know that much 'bout 'coons at the time cuz silly me picked up a hose and tried to run him off with the water. Well , do you know that that little F***er stood right up on his hind legs and practically asked me for a bar of soap to wash his self with. In that particular instance I got whooped, as they say. and he got a nice free shower out of the deal. But the cat got away. So, no harm. No foul. And NO, I didn't give him the bar of soap. "Visit a Howard Johnson's, ya little rat bastard.", I told him. Hahahahahah.

[lbb]

Speaking of that, what if it's not a person at all, but a big dog,or a pack of dogs, or a rabid dog, or raccoon, etc?

Or circus ponies. Mustn't forget the circus ponies. Your martial art is worthless if it doesn't train you to deal with the sudden, completely out-of-the-blue appearance of a herd of enraged circus ponies, all determined to trample you to death. How can you say your martial art trains for self-defense if it doesn't teach you that? Sheesh.

[C. David Henderson]

Two rules: Don't panic; and always carry a towel.

Specifically including around wet racoons and circus ponies.

Caution: other rules also may apply at any time and without warning.

[jennifer paige smith]

Two rules: Don't panic; and always carry a towel.


Note to self.:D