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avi-rosenberg
12-23-2008, 04:59 AM
Hello all
I would like to hear some feedback that has to do with a teaching mistake of sorts.
Our teacher has gone abroad for a month and left the senior students to manage the practices in his absence. On one occasion, when I was managing the practice, I tried to show a particularly advanced technique towards the end of the practice. I performed the technique quickly and unexpectedly and my uke did not understand what I wanted to do. Then instead of maybe doing the technique very very slowly while broadcasting my intentions, we more or less fumbled around a couple of times and then I stopped and decided we should do something else.
I once saw something similar occur with a senior instructor and he insisted on switching uke's until he came across someone who knew how to "cooperate".
What do people think would be the best way to continue when something like that happens.
Thanks,

Nick P.
12-23-2008, 07:18 AM
Fantastic question, and one I think most of us who teach have encountered at least a few times.

The best way to handle it, or the way I would handle it?

I have done exactly as you have done.
Also, I have begun to explain WHAT the technique should be like as I am messing it up/unable to execute it before moving to another technique, and am quite clear that the technique does work, just that I am unable to, which I believe is an important difference.

As for switching ukes until finding one who can follow the technique, there is merit in that argument; clearly the teacher wants the students to see it fully executed, and that is worth pursuing....as long as it is not ego-based.

YMMV.

Dieter Haffner
12-23-2008, 08:07 AM
I think you should have stopped doing the technique.
You probably choose one of the best uke that were available.
And even one of the best did not know how to act as uke.

Now, if you would have taken another uke that could take what was coming, changes were that noone would be able to perform the technique.
Because there are no ukes that know how to handle it.

I believe you should first have taught the uke way of the technique.
And when you see that everyone is getting familiar with what needs to be done, then you can try to do the technique again.

And better find a way to learn the ukemi without the need to go back to the technique.

Hope this rambling made some sense.
In short: if something is not working, analyze the different parts peise by peise, then put everything back together.

My 0.02 euro.

John Matsushima
12-23-2008, 08:54 AM
The mistake was that you didn't know what you were doing. You should have practiced the technique before doing it, or you should have done something that you know how to do well.
If you blame the uke for not knowing how to cooperate or switch ukes, then what about the student who gets stuck with that person for practice? If you can't do it, then how can you expect others to?

Nick P.
12-23-2008, 09:07 AM
Trying a technique should be encouraged, in my opinion, whether as the teacher or the student, even if you know you cant do it properly; how else are you ever going get better at it?

Not all the time, of course, but from time to time, why not? If all one ever does is what they know perfectly (or perfectly enough) how will they ever improve?

Amir Krause
12-23-2008, 10:12 AM
Hello all
I would like to hear some feedback that has to do with a teaching mistake of sorts.
Our teacher has gone abroad for a month and left the senior students to manage the practices in his absence. On one occasion, when I was managing the practice, I tried to show a particularly advanced technique towards the end of the practice. I performed the technique quickly and unexpectedly and my uke did not understand what I wanted to do. Then instead of maybe doing the technique very very slowly while broadcasting my intentions, we more or less fumbled around a couple of times and then I stopped and decided we should do something else.
I once saw something similar occur with a senior instructor and he insisted on switching uke's until he came across someone who knew how to "cooperate".
What do people think would be the best way to continue when something like that happens.
Thanks,

I prefer the simplest solution, saying "OOPS, forget it, I made a mistake. Lets do something else." and returning to teach something much more basic. In this, I follow my teacher, who does not hesitate to act this way even though he is senior.

Another advice my sensei insists on is one should not teach anything he does not control at a relativly good level (one can always improve...).
Experimenting is good, and is encouraged, but you should not experiment while teaching, that goes against your obligation to your students. Unless, of course, you are instructing them to experiment and try to show them some directions (in that cas, you must be willing to admit mistakes and electing an unfavourable solution).

BR
Amir

P.S.
Send my regards to Zeev

Ron Tisdale
12-23-2008, 10:49 AM
Interesting topic.

Completely aside, and not casting any aspersions on any method of handling the situation...I remember reading how Sogaku Takeda and even Ueshiba senior would pick the hardest man in the dojo to throw. And simply throw them.

Then simply teach around what just happened.

Best,
Ron

Jonathan
12-23-2008, 12:27 PM
I avoid teaching what I don't understand. This means that I don't demonstrate techniques with which I am unfamiliar in front of my class. What would be the point - except to show that I am out of my depth? If I cannot move uke through the technique as I wish, then I don't understand the technique well enough to attempt to teach it to others.

Occasionally, I will flub a familiar technique when I'm demonstrating to my class. I'm usually distracted by something, or tired, and don't focus properly on what I'm doing. In any case, when I do screw up the performance of a technique I simply smile and say, "That's how not to do the technique!" or "I must keep practicing, too!" Mistakes are common in training - even necessary. Consequently, I don't want to create an atmosphere in training, by reacting strongly to my own mistakes, where the prospect of making a mistake is feared by my students and becomes inhibiting to them.

And on a side note: Merry Christmas to all!

Joe McParland
12-23-2008, 03:02 PM
To say that the technique failed is to say that what you wanted to happen did not happen. Analysis afterward can point to yourself, your uke, or any other circumstances, but the ultimate cause was that your expectation was not met. Aikido could have still happened, but you got stuck.

Actively teach that things go awry---embrace it! Show that when this doesn't work, then we have that. If I lose this, I still have that. Etc.

I think it's a much more productive mental angle to teach students earlier not to get stuck than it is to perfect a form. I suspect it saves trouble later ;)

Russ Q
12-23-2008, 04:29 PM
Hi Avi,

Sounds like you bit off more than you could chew....kinda....I think you did the right thing by stopping practise and redirecting the other students focus to a different technique. You were, maybe, too far down the road to turn back and re explain what you were trying to do (dojo energetics from the instructors POV are very interesting eh?). Next time break down the "advanced" techinque into principles that can be easily understood and shown to your classmates. Put them together in a logical way over the time of the class as drills or smaller pieces of the larger technique and save the advanced technique (where these principles or pieces of technique come together) for later in class.

On the bright side you'll never make this same mistake again:-)

Sincerely,

Russ

gdandscompserv
12-23-2008, 11:19 PM
I tried to show a particularly advanced technique
I would simply avoid "particularly advanced techniques.":D

Rocky Izumi
12-24-2008, 12:47 AM
The only way to REALLY learn something is to make mistakes. By trying to make sure you never make a mistake, you ensure that you stop learning. Just make sure you correct it for the next time. Figure out what you did wrong, then try something else. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a good definition of insanity.

Enjoy everything you do. Enjoy making mistakes because it means that you are trying to learn. I like to make sure that when I am demonstrating a technique, I make sure that my uke is the person least likely to cooperate or least able to cooperate. That way, I get my practice and learning in while demonstrating so that the demonstration serves more than the single purpose. That way, I have a lot more fun when teaching. I just have to make sure that I don't spend too much time playing around when doing the demonstrations and make the students sit and watch too long instead of practicing.

Rock

Nafis Zahir
12-24-2008, 01:05 AM
You should leave the teaching of advanced techniques to those who are advanced. There are plenty of basic techniques that need to be worked on. Whenever you do teach an advanced technique, it should be advanced for the students and not for you.

Stefan Stenudd
12-24-2008, 05:10 AM
Things like that happen, and not just with advanced techniques. No big deal.
I would remain with that uke and try to solve it, even if it takes time, because that process is also very interesting for the students to watch and learn from.

You can do it slower, and even guide uke to the response you wish for. It doesn't have to work perfectly the first time (or any other time, for that matter). It is very interesting to involve in the process toward perfection.

And I do believe that every teacher needs to explore her or his limitations, even when it means making mistakes in front of the students. As long as nobody gets hurt.

Flintstone
12-24-2008, 06:23 AM
I'm sure I'm reading all of this thread wrong, but does it seems to me that you are blaming uke for not reacting as "they should"? I believe uke's always right, and that it's tori's who is always wrong.

David Maidment
12-24-2008, 09:53 AM
I believe uke's always right, and that it's tori's who is always wrong.

The problem with ukes is that, if they're expecting something and trying to figure out what you want them to do as you're doing it, they'll act unnaturally and potentially mess things up. If someone came at you on the street and you tried the technique, it might well work flawlessly. The best uke is one who is not being an uke, if you get what I mean.

Michael Douglas
12-24-2008, 02:38 PM
...On one occasion, when I was managing the practice, I tried to show a particularly advanced technique towards the end of the practice. I performed the technique quickly and unexpectedly and my uke did not understand what I wanted to do.
Showing off?
You were supposed to be "managing the practice".
I agree with the posters who have implied 'do something simpler you can do well'.

...The best uke is one who is not being an uke, if you get what I mean.
You don't usually get many of them in an Aikido dojo, and bear in mind for a lot of posters on this forum the 'best' uke is one who is absolutely being an uke. But I absolutely agree with you David.

Walter Martindale
12-25-2008, 01:53 PM
You learn more from "Oops" than you do from "Wow". It's a bit rough trying to learn something on the fly when you're trying to teach it, but I run into that all the time.

I coach rowing (and train other rowing coaches) - ok, it's not Aikido, but the thing is, they're in a boat, I'm in another boat, and I can't touch them and guide them through the movement - I have to do it by suggesting exercises or changes in their movements, or occasionally through demonstration/simulation (I'm in a motor boat, they're in racing shells, a minimum of 4 meters away from me). There are a couple of reasons I can't touch them - first - in the boat, they're remote. Second, even when they're on the land on rowing machines, I still can't touch them (without permission, whether they're male or female) because I'm a single male in my 50s and they're usually teenagers or in their 20s. I have to have all kinds of different ways to verbally guide them through learning how to row effectively and efficiently without more contact than a handshake or a pat on the shoulder. (Parenthetically, try running an aikido class without touching any uke, by talking both uke and nage through their movements, and by demonstrating the movement nage should be trying to do, but without an uke.)

Coaching/teaching/training/guiding Aikido is different in that it's done with personal contact and feel, where you attempt to control uke's core/centre through positioning yourself and manipulation of their peripheral bits. I'm just now starting to recognise changes in uke/nage when in contact, and am starting to feel ways that my partners are messing up their techniques in a way that allows me to help them not mess up. When they start getting it, I usually end up on the floor more quickly, more cleanly, and asking "wasn't that easier?" or "That felt a lot more like when (sensei) threw me." oops - the dreaded sempai teaching...

Every person you try to teach/coach/train/guide into the "correct" movement is a different person and you don't share their nervous system, so you don't know at the outset how they'll react or learn. We all learn by trying, doing, repeating, and gradually gaining more sensitivity, smoothness, and ability to recognise the difference between what we're trying to do and what we've done - if you never make mistakes, your improvement is slower.

If you're trying to demonstrate something that you're not that familiar with, and if you've got an odd number of people in the dojo, you could borrow the singleton and pre-practice the movement you're thinking of demonstrating prior to interrupting the class, work out whether or not you understand it well enough to teach it, and then interrupt practice to do the demonstration. If you decide that you don't understand it well enough, wait until sensei returns, or work with some of the others who are at or slightly ahead of your level to see if you can sort out how to do it. If you decide to go ahead and try the technique, let the class know you're still working out how to do it. All that said - if you can't do or adapt the technique "on" someone who doesn't really know how they're supposed to move, you may not know the technique that well. I run into that myself quite frequently...

Better stop before a "quick reply" gets really long

Cheers,
Walter

avi-rosenberg
12-27-2008, 04:19 PM
Thank you all for your responses. They have been very instructive and I think they have given me a wider perspective on how to approach this kind of situation.

sarahhair
12-27-2008, 10:43 PM
I notice my sensei (almost all of them!) taking a student aside to practice the next technique before they do a formal demonstration. They do not do it all the time, but rather often, especially if they are trying to teach a particular movement throughout the class, they might try several techniques on an uke before deciding which to teach the whole class.

Once in front of the class, this ensures uke has some practice and sensei has made a decision.

It is also fun that the rest of us get a quick preview from the corner of the eye on what is coming next!

David Maidment
12-28-2008, 06:44 AM
The sensei in our dojo do the same thing. It's always nice to be chosen as uke for the private practice and then public demonstration.

With some instructors, I've noticed that when they 'mess up' a demonstration, they'll tend to turn it into another technique, blame the uke but joke about how it was their [the instructor's] fault. It's a good approach, because it not only shows that things (for whatever reason) can go wrong, but also shows how those failures can be salvaged.

Stefan Hultberg
12-29-2008, 04:41 AM
Hi, this happens to all of us and it can be a good thing. When a technique does not work, for whatever reason, it is an opening and an opportunity for learning. I really love it when sensei takes the time (and he often does) to explain in detail what makes a technique work and what makes a technique fail, even to the point of explaining what to do if & when a technique fails - "ok, now you're here, what do you do" kind of thing. Showing the technique on different uke's is very helpful, not necessarily in order to find an uke who "knows what to do", but to illustrate that people are different and an uke looking like schwipsenegger is not the same as one looking like Kate Moss.

Showing techniques that fail are not mistakes but a natural and necessary part of aikido teaching.

Big new year's mile to everybody

Stefan Hultberg

GeneC
12-29-2008, 11:34 AM
I wonder if doing the technique with ken(s) in hand would reveal anything?

Shannon Frye
12-30-2008, 01:39 PM
[QUOTE=Amir Krause;221802]I prefer the simplest solution, saying "OOPS, forget it, I made a mistake. Lets do something else." and returning to teach something much more basic. In this, I follow my teacher, who does not hesitate to act this way even though he is senior.

Well said. And very good advice. I've done exactly that myself. It shows ME that I need to spend some time relearning that technique. And it shows STUDENTS that even a teacher should remember to be humble.

Shannon

GeneC
12-30-2008, 07:27 PM
I prefer the simplest solution, saying "OOPS, forget it, I made a mistake. Lets do something else." and returning to teach something much more basic. In this, I follow my teacher, who does not hesitate to act this way even though he is senior.

Well said. And very good advice. I've done exactly that myself. It shows ME that I need to spend some time relearning that technique. And it shows STUDENTS that even a teacher should remember to be humble.

Shannon

So Shannon, if one does that...how does anyone learn anythng? What's the parable Christ said about casting seeds on rocks.....?

Joe McParland
12-30-2008, 08:26 PM
So Shannon, if one does that...how does anyone learn anythng? What's the parable Christ said about casting seeds on rocks.....?

Oy---a talking rock! ;)

Don't lose sight of what is being taught in this instance, Gene.

Amir Krause
01-01-2009, 08:53 AM
So Shannon, if one does that...how does anyone learn anythng? What's the parable Christ said about casting seeds on rocks.....?

As the original poster, of that suggestion. I suggest that you remember the role of the person doing the mistakes at that moment: He is the teacher, not a student.

It is wrong for the teacher to FOCUS on his own learning while demonstrating in front of the class. At that time his main role is TEACHING. Letting the students sit on the sides, until the teacher figures out how to perform a technique is a waste of their learning time and attention. Further, at times, the solution to a specific problem might not be easy to generalize to other situations, or inappropriate for the students level.

Perhaps I should have clarified the teacher should as some later time go on and practice to weed out the mistakes on his own (with some partner).
I would also clarify that teaching is a way of learning, but the process is not the same as learning on your own.

Amir

John Matsushima
01-02-2009, 07:11 AM
As the original poster, of that suggestion. I suggest that you remember the role of the person doing the mistakes at that moment: He is the teacher, not a student.

It is wrong for the teacher to FOCUS on his own learning while demonstrating in front of the class. At that time his main role is TEACHING. Letting the students sit on the sides, until the teacher figures out how to perform a technique is a waste of their learning time and attention. Further, at times, the solution to a specific problem might not be easy to generalize to other situations, or inappropriate for the students level.

Perhaps I should have clarified the teacher should as some later time go on and practice to weed out the mistakes on his own (with some partner).
I would also clarify that teaching is a way of learning, but the process is not the same as learning on your own.

Amir

I agree with Amir. Let us not forget that the students are paying MONEY for quality instruction, not to watch someone make mistakes. A teacher has a responsibility to the students to do his job. I think I'd be pretty upset if I went to a restaurant and the chef was busy making mistakes and learning how to do his job while making my meal. I wouldn't expect a high school teacher or college professor to be fumbling through the books and trying to figure stuff out while teaching either. Yes, people do make mistakes, but let's don't make this out to be more than what it is - get over it and do it right.

Stefan Hultberg
01-04-2009, 04:07 AM
I agree with Amir. Let us not forget that the students are paying MONEY for quality instruction, not to watch someone make mistakes. A teacher has a responsibility to the students to do his job. I think I'd be pretty upset if I went to a restaurant and the chef was busy making mistakes and learning how to do his job while making my meal. I wouldn't expect a high school teacher or college professor to be fumbling through the books and trying to figure stuff out while teaching either. Yes, people do make mistakes, but let's don't make this out to be more than what it is - get over it and do it right.

I do agree with the get over it/get on with it bit. As for the rest I'm not so sure, yes people expect to be taught correct techniques or, at least, correct aikido. My point is - no technique works for everybody on everybody all the time. Not to become too quantum Physicee about things, but the general chaos nature of our reality ensures that this is the case. Therefore, the technique that fails is a true representation of a realistic possibility which opens up a discussion about why the technique works and why it can go wrong. Furthermore, I think, based on my view that the world isn't allways full of sunshine, that it is a really good thing to sometimes work with the question - ok, I tried this technique and it didn't work, now what?? One failed technique can be the opening chapter for the next one, or the next.

I believe showing that techniques can and do fail is to teach honest aikido.

Many best wishes

Rocky Izumi
01-04-2009, 05:06 PM
As the original poster, of that suggestion. I suggest that you remember the role of the person doing the mistakes at that moment: He is the teacher, not a student.

It is wrong for the teacher to FOCUS on his own learning while demonstrating in front of the class. At that time his main role is TEACHING. Letting the students sit on the sides, until the teacher figures out how to perform a technique is a waste of their learning time and attention. Further, at times, the solution to a specific problem might not be easy to generalize to other situations, or inappropriate for the students level.

Perhaps I should have clarified the teacher should as some later time go on and practice to weed out the mistakes on his own (with some partner).
I would also clarify that teaching is a way of learning, but the process is not the same as learning on your own.

Amir

Hi Amir,

I have to disagree here because teaching is a way of learning. While I agree that fumbling around is not part of the role of teaching, if you don't take the opportunity to learn during teaching, I think the instructor is wasting important time and a chance for the students to learn. The important thing to do is not to fumble around but to recover immediately and without hesitation, without changing to another technique. An important part of doing Aikido is to learn to be able to adapt to situations as they present themselves and to continue on with the movement to which you have committed yourself. In doing so, you should learn what about the different types of situations that present themselves so that next time, you will be able to assess the situation more correctly.

When you become a professional instructor, you often do not have the chance to go and practice with some other person to "weed out" mistakes or to learn to deal with "what ifs." You have to learn to do that on the fly. But, I do agree with you that "fumbling around" is not suitable as the students will lose respect for you. You have to be able to make adjustments as you go to deal with any "mistakes" that you make. In that sense, I do agree that the instructor needs to be sufficiently versed in the principles of Aikido to adjust with the needs of the situation.

I guess what I don't like is the response of some where if the technique doesn't seem to be working, the instructor changes up the technique and says, "Well, if you do that, I can just change techniques to do this one." If the instructor is capable, and he or she should be, the technique should be adjusted to deal with the specific case or the instructor should have been aware enough to not try such a technique on that specific Uke. You don't go around letting professional boxers have the first punch.

That said, in many cases, the instructor at a dojo is often the "one-eyed man in a country of blind men." And the instructor may not have the ability to adapt to different situations. In that case, it is often the case that the person teaching something is just learning about that at the same time. Thirty years and I am still trying to figure out Ikkyo and all the principles it contains. So every time I am up in front teaching, I am still learning something new every time I use a new Uke. Yes, what I do may be what you call a good application of Ikkyo but I may not be satisfied and feel that I made a mistake that needs to be corrected by continuing to demonstrate the technique a couple more times, each time correcting the initial error. You, nor the Uke, may not see the error but I know it was there. Errors are relative. What is important is to not let the error nor the correction get in the way of teaching.

Rock

gdandscompserv
01-04-2009, 10:39 PM
That said, in many cases, the instructor at a dojo is often the "one-eyed man in a country of blind men."
That's me!:D

Joe McParland
01-05-2009, 09:25 AM
I guess what I don't like is the response of some where if the technique doesn't seem to be working, the instructor changes up the technique and says, "Well, if you do that, I can just change techniques to do this one." If the instructor is capable, and he or she should be, the technique should be adjusted to deal with the specific case or the instructor should have been aware enough to not try such a technique on that specific Uke. You don't go around letting professional boxers have the first punch.

I think there's a balance to be struck on this point. I tell students not to be "married to" performing a particular technique, to recognize when it is not working and move along. On the other hand, that should not be an opening for the student to avoid learning a technique properly; in this case, trying to "make it work" is part of exploring the technique.

It's a personal preference that I generally penalize "getting stuck" more than I do inability to make a technique work.

Rocky Izumi
01-05-2009, 03:59 PM
I think there's a balance to be struck on this point. I tell students not to be "married to" performing a particular technique, to recognize when it is not working and move along. On the other hand, that should not be an opening for the student to avoid learning a technique properly; in this case, trying to "make it work" is part of exploring the technique.

It's a personal preference that I generally penalize "getting stuck" more than I do inability to make a technique work.

I guess it must be my personal preference but I guess I feel that getting stuck is what should happen if you are pushing yourself to work on difficulties. For that reason, I usually request my partners to resist as hard as they can. That means I sometimes do get stuck during practice because of some error I made. That happens even during demonstration of a technique.

I figure that it is important that students see the instructor pushing to deal with more and more difficult situations and sometimes getting stuck so that they don't think that they should only practice those things that work for them all the time. If you do that and only demonstrate those things that work all the time, you might stop growing. Very likely, the students will also stop growing because they will model their behaviour on yours. They will learn to switch up to a technique that they can do on their partner when their partner is too difficult to handle with something they should be practicing. I see it all the time in Dojos where the practice ends up becoming "AikiDancing."

Yes, I do understand that there is a time for cooperative practice when you are just learning the fundamental motions so that you can move on to practicing the principles. At the same time, it bothers me to see people practicing motions without working on the principles that allow the practitioner to overcome the difficult situations. I keep on seeing people practicing techniques over and over without any understanding of the underlying principles so that they are actually practicing the wrong thing. These people are practicing things that would not work in a situation where the other person is not being cooperative.

Okay, I've had my say and I will leave it there.

Thanks,

Rock

Joe McParland
01-05-2009, 05:17 PM
I guess it must be my personal preference but I guess I feel that getting stuck is what should happen if you are pushing yourself to work on difficulties. For that reason, I usually request my partners to resist as hard as they can. That means I sometimes do get stuck during practice because of some error I made. That happens even during demonstration of a technique.

I figure that it is important that students see the instructor pushing to deal with more and more difficult situations and sometimes getting stuck so that they don't think that they should only practice those things that work for them all the time. If you do that and only demonstrate those things that work all the time, you might stop growing. Very likely, the students will also stop growing because they will model their behaviour on yours. They will learn to switch up to a technique that they can do on their partner when their partner is too difficult to handle with something they should be practicing. I see it all the time in Dojos where the practice ends up becoming "AikiDancing."

Yes, I do understand that there is a time for cooperative practice when you are just learning the fundamental motions so that you can move on to practicing the principles. At the same time, it bothers me to see people practicing motions without working on the principles that allow the practitioner to overcome the difficult situations. I keep on seeing people practicing techniques over and over without any understanding of the underlying principles so that they are actually practicing the wrong thing. These people are practicing things that would not work in a situation where the other person is not being cooperative.

Okay, I've had my say and I will leave it there.

Thanks,

Rock

Ah---I see your perspective a little better now, I think. Rest assured that I'm not talking about cooperative practice :D My "don't get stuck" advisory generally comes after your uke has actively found your technique's weakness and has confounded you by returning to a stable posture, changing the attack, or reversing your defense. The objective of that set is definitely to polish the demonstrated technique, so having to change out midstream is something of a failure, but a good lesson: note how things went wrong, work with your uke, and fix it after that encounter is complete---don't stop the encounter prematurely; see it through to the end: adjust what you're doing to finish the technique, switch techniques appropriately, or create distance and disengage.

I'll generally only stop that give-and-take if a pair starts to slip into too much wrestling with each other. I want them to see where the aikido part ended and the wrestling began, and sometimes to see if they can recover back into aikido.

I get the feeling we're mostly agreed, just examining from opposite sides. The dojo is certainly the right place to iron out the difficulties---putting techniques under the microscope as well as working on not getting stuck---and it all only makes sense if there's meat to the practice :)

Thanks for the discussion, Rock.

Rocky Izumi
01-06-2009, 03:51 PM
Appreciate your comments Joe. Good place to polish the theory through examination of your own biases and testing out your ideas on others with experience.

Enjoyed having my say and listening back. I see your point too. Yeah, different sides of the same coin, etc. Or perhaps Omote and Ura? :)

Rock