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M Butt
12-15-2008, 02:43 PM
I was discussing The Art of Peace with my brother and he pointed this phrase out... "...in the martial arts, there are no secrets."

Then later the second phrase to crop up was "..... these are the secrets of the martial arts..."

In my opinion, O Sensei is saying that there are secrets in martial arts but he doesn't believe there should be and so he will divulge them but my brothers opinion was slightly different.

We're just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts or opinions on this that they'd like to express. It'd be interesting to see what others think.

Joe McParland
12-15-2008, 03:11 PM
There is nothing that is not discoverable, maybe?

gregg block
12-15-2008, 05:00 PM
He wrote a lot of things in the art of peace. Reflect on it and let it mean for you what it means for you. It's best not to over analyse. .Just enjoy it for what ,if anything it inspires in you. enough said. IMHO

Flintstone
12-15-2008, 07:22 PM
Hidden in plain sight?

Demetrio Cereijo
12-15-2008, 07:25 PM
It has to be felt?
:)

crbateman
12-15-2008, 07:26 PM
Here's the rub: O'Sensei technically did not write "The Art of Peace". It is a compilation by John Stevens Sensei of O'Sensei's musings over a long period of time. They are subject to the interpretations and contexts given them by the compiler and others who might have recounted the quotes, not to mention the language translations. Not only were many of O'Sensei's quotes somewhat cryptic, but many of his views evolved over time, as did many of his techniques. Books like tAoP are meant to be digested by the reader for effect, not to be taken literally.

Andrew S
12-16-2008, 04:56 AM
Hidden in plain sight?

Or hiden in plain sight?

justin
12-16-2008, 06:49 AM
Our sensei often finishes the class with “there are no secrets to aikido all you have to do is turn up and train” which is often a great comfort as you come of the mat thinking you have three left feet:hypno:

DonMagee
12-16-2008, 07:03 AM
Maybe it was written by the same guy who wrote this.

You should never write programs that make assumptions about the size of your data types. However, you are guaranteed that a minimum amount of storage will be set aside for each basic data type. For example, it's guaranteed that an integer value will be stored in a minimum of 32 bits of storage. However, once again, it's not guaranteed

Sometimes people just have trouble expressing what they want to tell you.

lbb
12-16-2008, 08:29 AM
Here's the rub: O'Sensei technically did not write "The Art of Peace". It is a compilation by John Stevens Sensei of O'Sensei's musings over a long period of time. They are subject to the interpretations and contexts given them by the compiler and others who might have recounted the quotes, not to mention the language translations. Not only were many of O'Sensei's quotes somewhat cryptic, but many of his views evolved over time, as did many of his techniques. Books like tAoP are meant to be digested by the reader for effect, not to be taken literally.
Well, I'll say it: the emperor has no clothes. Every time I pick up tAoP, I always think how pointless and uninstructive a collection of context-free sound bites is. Despite the many meanings that people infer into those little nuggets, they really don't say that much -- except, perhaps, to those who have already in their minds the message that they're seeking. I don't get literal meaning from them, I don't get figurative meaning from them, and the only "effect" I get is one of annoyance.

phitruong
12-16-2008, 11:11 AM
i was watching the movie Kungfu Panda for the *mumble mumble* times with my kids (that's my story and i will stick to it). i was quite interested in the secret ingredient of the Secret Ingredient Soup, since i liked soup too. i was quite disappointed with the answer. :D

Lan Powers
12-16-2008, 11:50 AM
Wish i had one of those soup-spoons WITHOUT all the little holes in it.....
Lan

Aikibu
12-16-2008, 12:03 PM
Please don't tell me! It's no longer a secret if you tell me for gosh sakes! :D

William Hazen

Aikibu
12-16-2008, 12:13 PM
Well, I'll say it: the emperor has no clothes. Every time I pick up tAoP, I always think how pointless and uninstructive a collection of context-free sound bites is. Despite the many meanings that people infer into those little nuggets, they really don't say that much -- except, perhaps, to those who have already in their minds the message that they're seeking. I don't get literal meaning from them, I don't get figurative meaning from them, and the only "effect" I get is one of annoyance.
Me too...I feel no need to deify O'Sensei though he did have some interesting things to say. :)

William Hazen

phitruong
12-16-2008, 12:29 PM
Wish i had one of those soup-spoons WITHOUT all the little holes in it.....
Lan

only amateurs need soup-spoons. we professional soupers need no spoons. There is no spoon! just like professional aikidoka don't need to stinking secrets! now if you folks can tell me the secret of tying the hakama and keep it stay on i would be much appreciated; otherwise, i will have to loop 'em straps over my shoulders and go with farmer John approach. :D *mumble mumble seem to have quite a bit of wardrobe malfunction mumble mumble*

lbb
12-16-2008, 12:31 PM
Me too...I feel no need to deify O'Sensei though he did have some interesting things to say. :)


Plus the title of this thread keeps making me imagine O'Sensei saying, "The secrets of martial arts? Well...I can tell you...but then I'll have to kill you." :D

crbateman
12-16-2008, 01:12 PM
Well, I'll say it: the emperor has no clothes. Every time I pick up tAoP, I always think how pointless and uninstructive a collection of context-free sound bites is. Despite the many meanings that people infer into those little nuggets, they really don't say that much -- except, perhaps, to those who have already in their minds the message that they're seeking. I don't get literal meaning from them, I don't get figurative meaning from them, and the only "effect" I get is one of annoyance.One guy's profound wisdom is another guy's gibberish... ;) Some just have more interest (or tolerance, perhaps) for things cryptic, obtuse or puzzling than others. At least it provoked a reaction... :D

lbb
12-16-2008, 03:13 PM
One guy's profound wisdom is another guy's gibberish... ;) Some just have more interest (or tolerance, perhaps) for things cryptic, obtuse or puzzling than others. At least it provoked a reaction... :D

Oh, it does that. I just question whether you can honestly infer meaning from a few words devoid of context. It's not a matter of interest or tolerance, really.

C. David Henderson
12-16-2008, 03:26 PM
There is no spoon!

So Phi, I take it you've also seen the Matrix mumble mumble and perhaps mumble times.:)

DH

DonMagee
12-16-2008, 10:07 PM
Today at work we had leftovers from our winter party. There was left over icecream, but there was no spoon.

So I told him to just fork it.

Later we thought their might be cake...but it turned out to be a lie.

mwible
12-16-2008, 11:17 PM
i was watching the movie Kungfu Panda for the *mumble mumble* times with my kids (that's my story and i will stick to it). i was quite interested in the secret ingredient of the Secret Ingredient Soup, since i liked soup too. i was quite disappointed with the answer. :D

Haha, i love that movie!

SCADOOSH!:D

Nathan Wallace
12-17-2008, 09:40 AM
the secrets are the basics..?

what are you gonna do? sit on me?
don't tempt me. lol!

Joe McParland
12-17-2008, 08:42 PM
I wonder to what extent we can know O-Sensei's understanding of or intent for his aikido by virtue of understanding his doka?

Consider: Would we assume that O-Sensei put less effort and meaning into his poetry about his art than he did in demonstrating the physical aspects of his art, and would we then dismiss the former as inaccessible while claiming any understanding of the later?

It seems that O-Sensei wanted others to see the universe as he saw it. If so, then that's what's hidden; and, if so, since there is this "aikido" thing he taught and all of this poetry, presumably it's only hidden by our own lack of understanding, not for his lack of effort or any attempt to obscure it.

But that's just speculation :)

GeneC
12-17-2008, 09:16 PM
On the other hand, a whole bunch of folks are trying to figure out how one Japanese guy perceived his world, when he apparently didn't want it known easily.

Here is a radio interview in his later years. He sounded pretty straight-forward to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Sugag-Ncs

Stefan Stenudd
12-18-2008, 02:57 AM
I read an anecdote about Nakazono sensei, many years ago. This is how I rememeber it:
Some aikido students asked him about the secret of aikido, and he promised to show them if they came to the dojo later on. They sure did, but he was late, so they started to practice a little. When he showed up, he encouraged them to go on, gave them some instructions, and so on. After a couple of hours he interrupted the training and said that it was time to reveal the secret of aikido:
- You've trained hard and sincerely. That's it.

crbateman
12-18-2008, 05:48 AM
Just a thought... O'Sensei is said to have mused that Aikido is stolen, not taught. Perhaps he felt that the meaning of his doka was to be assimilated in the same way, leaving room for each to interpret in his own way.

dps
12-18-2008, 08:17 AM
I think some people, maybe a lot of people need the idea of a 'secret' to motivate them. Maybe that is why so many people drop out of Aikido when they realize that to find the secret ( which is nonexistent but they don't know it ) is going to take a long time.

David

jennifer paige smith
12-18-2008, 11:22 AM
I think some people, maybe a lot of people need the idea of a 'secret' to motivate them. Maybe that is why so many people drop out of Aikido when they realize that to find the secret ( which is nonexistent but they don't know it ) is going to take a long time.

David

Like the lure of the Dragon Scroll in Kung-Fu Panda, which ,only later, was revealed to be either empty or a reflection of oneself.

Flintstone
12-18-2008, 02:52 PM
Like the lure of the Dragon Scroll in Kung-Fu Panda, which ,only later, was revealed to be either empty or a reflection of oneself.
Ey, Jennifer, you should have tagged this post as SPOILER first!! :D

Misogi-no-Gyo
12-18-2008, 11:02 PM
I think some people, maybe a lot of people need the idea of a 'secret' to motivate them.

Maybe a lot of people need the idea that they actually know what a secret really is and how it works... You see, secrets in and of themselves can only have power when YOU DON'T TELL ANYONE ABOUT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE... You see, that is what makes them secret. Think about it...

Maybe that is why so many people drop out of Aikido when they realize that to find the secret (which is nonexistent but they don't know it) is going to take a long time.

Oh, is that what they told you? Perhaps "they" didn't get it at all. Perhaps their teacher didn't get it either.

O-Sensei is thought to have said for us not to rely on secret techniques. He never said that there weren't any secrets, or that he wasn't keeping any.

.

lbb
12-19-2008, 07:43 AM
Ey, Jennifer, you should have tagged this post as SPOILER first!! :D

Do you really think that everyone on earth who would have any desire to see that movie, hasn't seen it by now? :cool:

(all 200 of them?)

lbb
12-19-2008, 07:47 AM
O-Sensei is thought to have said for us not to rely on secret techniques. He never said that there weren't any secrets, or that he wasn't keeping any..

So, then, what's the meaning of the statement? Why don't rely on secret techniques?

- Because you shouldn't rely on any technique?
- Because the techniques are highly effective, but you shouldn't rely on their being secret (i.e., your opponent not knowing them as well)?
- Because, like a lot of secrets, just being secret doesn't make them All That, and they're not any more effective than the non-secret techniques?

Rennis Buchner
12-19-2008, 07:56 AM
Just a thought... O'Sensei is said to have mused that Aikido is stolen, not taught.

This is a fairly universal idea in Japanese martial arts and cultural arts in Japan in general so Ueshiba was following the norm here rather than stating anything particularly unique about aikido.

Random thoughts,
Rennis Buchner

grondahl
12-19-2008, 08:58 AM
I think that the entire quote is

"Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."

So, then, what's the meaning of the statement? Why don't rely on secret techniques?

- Because you shouldn't rely on any technique?
- Because the techniques are highly effective, but you shouldn't rely on their being secret (i.e., your opponent not knowing them as well)?
- Because, like a lot of secrets, just being secret doesn't make them All That, and they're not any more effective than the non-secret techniques?

GeneC
12-19-2008, 09:32 AM
I read an anecdote about Nakazono sensei, many years ago. This is how I rememeber it:
Some aikido students asked him about the secret of aikido, and he promised to show them if they came to the dojo later on. They sure did, but he was late, so they started to practice a little. When he showed up, he encouraged them to go on, gave them some instructions, and so on. After a couple of hours he interrupted the training and said that it was time to reveal the secret of aikido:
- You've trained hard and sincerely. That's it.

Furthermore, Back in the day MA was secretly taught to a select few, so IMO, that's where the "secrets of MA " came about. Just like the secrets of Magic, there are many secrets but they're no longer a secret once you know how it's done. There are some aspects of MA that seem magical or secretive, such as Dim Mak, etc. But to me, the concept of using your Ki could be considered a "secret of MA". Then there's the MA of Ninjustu, et al which has many secrets.

GeneC
12-19-2008, 09:38 AM
Just a thought... O'Sensei is said to have mused that Aikido is stolen, not taught. Perhaps he felt that the meaning of his doka was to be assimilated in the same way, leaving room for each to interpret in his own way.

IMO, that's a Japanese practice of not explaining much, leaving students to try and figurre it out for themselves (and possibly getting it wrong, a huge roadblock in the learning process). IMO, a dysfunctional way to teach. Just because someone is proficient at something doesn't mean they can teach it to someone else.

crbateman
12-19-2008, 10:52 AM
IMO, that's a Japanese practice of not explaining much, leaving students to try and figurre it out for themselves (and possibly getting it wrong, a huge roadblock in the learning process). IMO, a dysfunctional way to teach. Just because someone is proficient at something doesn't mean they can teach it to someone else.Which seems to support the theory that there may not have been intent on the part of O'Sensei that readers and listeners to his more ethereal statements understood exactly what he was trying to say, but were instead left to draw their own independent conclusions.

Joe McParland
12-19-2008, 11:42 AM
Which seems to support the theory that there may not have been intent on the part of O'Sensei that readers and listeners to his more ethereal statements understood exactly what he was trying to say, but were instead left to draw their own independent conclusions.

In some traditions, the student is left to draw his own conclusions...

... which the instructor may then reject as patently wrong. It's then back to the drawing board for the student. :)

Some zen koan lines are like that. I also had mathematics courses like that in college (Moore Method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_method) and variants) that were very much geared toward teaching the student to stand on his own two feet as a researcher.

But, who knows? Unless someone's been blessed as The Keeper of the Doka's Meaning, we are left with questions such as, "Did O-Sensei seem like the kind of guy who'd be happy to have you have your own (differing) opinion about aikido?" :p

crbateman
12-19-2008, 12:36 PM
"Did O-Sensei seem like the kind of guy who'd be happy to have you have your own (differing) opinion about aikido?" :pThat'd be my story and I'm stickin' to it... (until he comes back from "the other side" and tells me different) :D ;)

GeneC
12-19-2008, 02:10 PM
IMO, that's a Japanese practice of not explaining much, leaving students to try and figurre it out for themselves (and possibly getting it wrong, a huge roadblock in the learning process). IMO, a dysfunctional way to teach. Just because someone is proficient at something doesn't mean they can teach it to someone else.
Which seems to support the theory that there may not have been intent on the part of O'Sensei that readers and listeners to his more ethereal statements understood exactly what he was trying to say, but were instead left to draw their own independent conclusions.

In some traditions, the student is left to draw his own conclusions.. which the instructor may then reject as patently wrong. It's then back to the drawing board for the student. :) Some zen koan lines are like that. I also had mathematics courses like that in college

But is that an efficient way to teach? How much time, effort and energy is wasted. It's a fact that it takes more time and energy to un-teach something and then re-teach it correctly ( especially when muscle memory is involved), than to teach it correctly (with proper explanation and time for correct practice) the first time. I'm very fortunate that my Sensei thoroughly explains everything(including how martiallyeffective it is).

Joe McParland
12-19-2008, 02:59 PM
It's not the teaching, Gene; it's the learning.

In the math classes, I gained tremendous depth this way. As for things like zen and aikido, it's said that the answers / the principles / whatever are within you and all around you, staring you in the face -but my explaining that just spreads another layer of crap for you to dig through over what I'd want you to understand deeply for yourself.

Some kinds of understanding can be put in SITREP form. Others can't.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-19-2008, 03:00 PM
Gene,

No, it is not an efficient way to teach but it is an effective one.

GeneC
12-19-2008, 03:04 PM
So is starvation and torture, but that's immoral too.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-19-2008, 03:12 PM
Aikido is about nature, and nature is amoral, its beyond good and evil.

lbb
12-19-2008, 09:11 PM
But is that an efficient way to teach? How much time, effort and energy is wasted.

So what's an "efficient way of teaching" -- simply telling the students all the "secrets"? That might seem obvious at first glance, but then there's the fact that for teaching to take place, learning must take place as well -- and some things are not learned simply by receiving information. Teaching isn't like washing a car or building a chair; you can't simply reduce it to the fewest possible moves and call that "the most efficient way". A better analogy is gardening: I can choose a good site and I can prep the soil and I can plant the seed properly, but I'm not going to instantly have a 6' sunflower -- the plant has to do the growing.

Misogi-no-Gyo
12-25-2008, 09:52 PM
So, then, what's the meaning of the statement? Why don't rely on secret techniques?

- Because you shouldn't rely on any technique?
- Because the techniques are highly effective, but you shouldn't rely on their being secret (i.e., your opponent not knowing them as well)?
- Because, like a lot of secrets, just being secret doesn't make them All That, and they're not any more effective than the non-secret techniques?

...along with the clarification of the actual quote in the previous post (translated into English, of course) I guess that I should add that when it comes to secrets, I wasn't referring to (secret) techniques at all. There are all kinds of secrets, and various levels of them. In any case, the real secrets are never divulged, ever. They are rarely even demonstrated around anyone who might be able to steal them. When they are used, there is no one left to comment on them, either... sigh

.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-26-2008, 12:45 PM
I was discussing The Art of Peace with my brother and he pointed this phrase out... "...in the martial arts, there are no secrets."

Then later the second phrase to crop up was "..... these are the secrets of the martial arts..."

In my opinion, O Sensei is saying that there are secrets in martial arts but he doesn't believe there should be and so he will divulge them but my brothers opinion was slightly different.

We're just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts or opinions on this that they'd like to express. It'd be interesting to see what others think.

What!! There are secrets?
Oh my "god" what have I been doing all these years!!?.......;) :cool: :rolleyes:

dps
12-26-2008, 04:12 PM
I can choose a good site and I can prep the soil and I can plant the seed properly, but I'm not going to instantly have a 6' sunflower -- the plant has to do the growing.

Oh no Mary, you gave away the secret 'Garden Analogy'.:)

David

lbb
12-27-2008, 07:16 AM
Oh no Mary, you gave away the secret 'Garden Analogy'.:)

David

So...do you have to kill me, or do I have to kill you??? :crazy:

dps
12-27-2008, 08:20 AM
So...do you have to kill me, or do I have to kill you??? :crazy:

Lol :)

The true secret of Aikido ( and all martial arts) and how to get it.

Taken from the thread by Ellis Amdur
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15538

http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

"What I really learned from him was not technique, but the true secret of Aikido, non-dissension; not to resist your opponent's strength but to use it."

" You could learn much more by watching him do Aikido than you could by listening to him explain ."

" I began to make rapid progress after I started copying what he did, and paid less attention to what he said."

quotes by Koichi Tohei

David

L. Camejo
12-27-2008, 07:52 PM
It is said that God has placed obvious limitations on our intelligence, but none whatsoever on our stupidity. :)

Interesting thing about some of the stuff in the Art of Peace is that when your practice reaches a certain level of depth and understanding the gibberidge actually starts to make real and practical sense. Imho this may be seen by some as "secret" if one is unwilling to put in the time and effort in "correct" practice (i.e. not just showing up for class but actively engaing in deep study).

In that light the only secrets that exists are there due to our own ignorance of the subject imho.

Best.
LC

Buck
12-27-2008, 09:48 PM
I often come across things like this. In industry/business there are many secrets. Once you are privy to those secrets you began to realize there are two types.

1. those of substantial value.
mostly things valued because they will make money that are kept secret so the competition will not get first stab at it on the market.

2. those that are not.
mostly a marketing ploy, to build interest in the company. Or for a company to get attention and validation in product or process, or company, as a way to build or gain interest into your product or company. Usually those secrets are less than impressive.

You have to determine I think the value of what is being kept secret. Secrets are information not pasted to everyone. But information that only exists by the keeper. That is, everything can be figured out. That really is true for Aikido.

The kicker is how we (those not a keeper of a secret) see and treat a secret. I think the secrets of Aikido are like math. When learning a different langauge upon hearing it for the first time is it like a secret language. But, as you learn the language, soon all its secrets are revealed. :)

GeneC
12-29-2008, 03:31 PM
So what's an "efficient way of teaching" -- simply telling the students all the "secrets"? That might seem obvious at first glance, but then there's the fact that for teaching to take place, learning must take place as well -- and some things are not learned simply by receiving information. Teaching isn't like washing a car or building a chair; you can't simply reduce it to the fewest possible moves and call that "the most efficient way". A better analogy is gardening: I can choose a good site and I can prep the soil and I can plant the seed properly, but I'm not going to instantly have a 6' sunflower -- the plant has to do the growing.

Sure , we can use the "gardening anlalogy". I come from a long line of gardeners and my gardening has evolved to where I garden vertically- I grow beans around corn so the vines grow up the stalk and lettuce under tomatoes, which are under grape vines to maximize the sun/shade relation. I grow cucumber on a trellace in front of peppers so that they get morning sun, but be in the shade for the hot afternoon sun, etc. I don't think anyone expects a 6' sunflower plant instantly, but I do expect it to have a 2' head on it with edible seeds( that's the secret of Sunflowers). So we acknowledge that there are secrets in MA, but still, a secret is something not told to anyone. What's the point of that?

GeneC
12-29-2008, 04:33 PM
Furthermore, Back in the day MA was secretly taught to a select few, so IMO, that's where the "secrets of MA " came about. Just like the secrets of Magic, there are many secrets but they're no longer a secret once you know how it's done. There are some aspects of MA that seem magical or secretive, like the concept of using your Ki could be considered a "secret of MA".

mathewjgano
12-29-2008, 07:49 PM
I don't think anyone expects a 6' sunflower plant instantly
Well, as an aside, sometimes one gets lucky and that first attempt just happens (remembering my dad's ~7' sunflowers). I don't think beginner's luck is luck...hence the call to nurture "beginner's mind." Sometimes "knowledge" obfuscates more than it reveals.

So we acknowledge that there are secrets in MA, but still, a secret is something not told to anyone. What's the point of that?
I think the point is one of timing, mostly. The point made about "gibberish" language seems to apply well too. Another might be for fear of giving away cutting edge technology (weak pun intended) to potential competitors (aside: another potential down-side to competition), or overly-aggressive personalities. There are many reasons to keep something a secret; sometimes for good reasons; sometimes for bad; different situations dictate differently. I think there's also something to be said for making people work for it on their own.

GeneC
12-29-2008, 08:19 PM
Well, as an aside, sometimes one gets lucky and that first attempt just happens (remembering my dad's ~7' sunflowers). I don't think beginner's luck is luck...

I was taught luck s the residue of hard work

I think the point is one of timing, mostly. The point made about "gibberish" language seems to apply well too.....

Well a secret is different than a puzzle, which simply separates the smart from otherwise.

mathewjgano
12-29-2008, 08:35 PM
I was taught luck s the residue of hard work
I like that axiom, but I know a lot of hard workers who have "bad luck."

Well a secret is different than a puzzle...

That doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive...and I would argue you can't have a puzzle without some kind of associative secret(s). Once you know the secret of a puzzle, it's no longer a puzzle really.

lbb
12-29-2008, 09:10 PM
I don't think anyone expects a 6' sunflower plant instantly

Clarence, the point of the gardening analogy was that some processes happen in their own time and really can't be rushed, no matter how good your practices are. Growing a plant is one of those processes, learning a martial art is another. Mind you, there are roughly eighteen gazillion ways that you can screw them up, and there's no limit to how much you can slow them down...but there certainly is a limit to how much you can speed them up, and it's a limit that's reached very quickly. Therefore, while it's always good to strive for good practices, you can't expect to be able to endlessly improve them and thereby get to your goal faster. You've heard the old martial arts chestnut about the student who asked his teacher how long it would take him to master the sword, right? That's what I'm talkiing about.

GeneC
12-29-2008, 09:37 PM
I like that axiom, but I know a lot of hard workers who have "bad luck."

You mean the 'bad luck' was a direct result of said hard work? Well, there's the secret, hard work doesn't guarentee the 'worker' takes advantage of the 'good luck'.

That doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive...and I would argue you can't have a puzzle without some kind of associative secret(s). Once you know the secret of a puzzle, it's no longer a puzzle really.

Well it doesn't mean they're mutually inclusive either. The only 'secret' of a puzzle is the answer, which isn't really a secret, as it's not intended to be kept, it's intention is to be revealed.

GeneC
12-29-2008, 09:40 PM
Clarence, the point of the gardening analogy was that some processes happen in their own time and really can't be rushed, no matter how good your practices are. ....

My point is that it can be rushed. Some seeds are hybrids and can grow much faster than other, slower seeds.

mathewjgano
12-29-2008, 11:01 PM
You mean the 'bad luck' was a direct result of said hard work? Well, there's the secret, hard work doesn't guarentee the 'worker' takes advantage of the 'good luck'.

I definately didn't say the "bad luck" was a direct result of hard work. :)

Well it doesn't mean they're mutually inclusive either. The only 'secret' of a puzzle is the answer, which isn't really a secret, as it's not intended to be kept, it's intention is to be revealed.

Not all secrets are meant to be kept forever. I'd say it's a secret insofaras people don't just give away the answer. My point was just that "puzzling" language is often described as secretive because it's not what many consider straight forward. You asked why someone would be secretive and that was the answer I came up with.

dps
12-29-2008, 11:19 PM
. So we acknowledge that there are secrets in MA, but still, a secret is something not told to anyone. What's the point of that?

Two reasons for not revealing a "secret" in martial arts.

1. To keep an advantage over a potential opponent.

2. "Grasshopper" is not ready to know and would not understand.

David

lbb
12-30-2008, 07:51 AM
My point is that it can be rushed. Some seeds are hybrids and can grow much faster than other, slower seeds.

That does not provide an example of a process of growth being "rushed" through the gardener's use of better methods, and thus does not support the point that you are trying to make about martial arts teaching methods.

RonRagusa
12-30-2008, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=222237#post222237)
. So we acknowledge that there are secrets in MA, but still, a secret is something not told to anyone. What's the point of that?

There are no secrets in the martial arts. There is knowledge yet unlearned but that isn't secret, it's merely waiting to be discovered.

I remember many years ago when a group of karate students from a local dojo came to our dojo to study Aikido. They were excellent students, eager to learn. After a few lessons they informed us that, regretfully, they couldn't continue studying Aikido because their instructor said if they did continue with us he would be unable to teach them the deep secrets of his art.

Secrets in the martial arts are just information that an instructor is knowlingly withholding from students, or, as in the case above, a hook to keep students on the line.

Ron

C. David Henderson
12-30-2008, 08:26 AM
Aikido is a statute waiting inside a block of marble. It's not a secret, but it is waiting to come to the surface.

2 cents.

Mark Gibbons
12-30-2008, 01:14 PM
I'm not sure about other martial arts, but the real secret of Aikido can be found here.
http://twocranesaikido.com/video/SecretofAkido.html

Regards,
Mark

lbb
12-30-2008, 02:26 PM
I'm not sure about other martial arts, but the real secret of Aikido can be found here.
http://twocranesaikido.com/video/SecretofAkido.html

Regards,
Mark

I guarantee that's a rickroll, and I'm not going there.

Joe McParland
12-30-2008, 02:46 PM
I'm not sure about other martial arts, but the real secret of Aikido can be found here.
http://twocranesaikido.com/video/SecretofAkido.html

Regards,
Mark

I guarantee that's a rickroll, and I'm not going there.

I went. It's cute - not a rickroll. :)

GeneC
12-30-2008, 05:40 PM
I definately didn't say the "bad luck" was a direct result of hard work. :)

No, you didn't, but the implication....

Again, I don't know why you said anything past "forever"....but, you say folks say things secretive because they don't intend to be staightforward....hmmm....

GeneC
12-30-2008, 05:45 PM
Two reasons for not revealing a "secret" in martial arts.

1. To keep an advantage over a potential opponent.

2. "Grasshopper" is not ready to know and would not understand.

David

3. Secret= "cash cow"= "food,clothing , shelter, pocket money, bath, toilet priviledges,etc.

GeneC
12-30-2008, 05:55 PM
That does not provide an example of a process of growth being "rushed" through the gardener's use of better methods, and thus does not support the point that you are trying to make about martial arts teaching methods.

Ok, Mary, Mary, quite contrary, my point is that folks that have a background in MA, can learn Aikido much faster than those who're just starting out and chose Aikido as their first MA....and this says much to me about you....

Mark Gibbons
12-30-2008, 06:03 PM
I guarantee that's a rickroll, and I'm not going there. No rickroll, just the actual real secret to aikido. Granted, it's a small, not terribly important or obscure secret. Assuming you attend the aikiweb seminar at Two Cranes some of the props will be in attendance. :)

Regards,
Mark

GeneC
12-30-2008, 06:10 PM
I'm not sure about other martial arts, but the real secret of Aikido can be found here.
http://twocranesaikido.com/video/SecretofAkido.html

Regards,
Mark

Mark...my man!,,,,,,you have snatched the pebble from the Master's hand....now you must go forth and .........save a bunch of ignorant Americans from harm!!...

GeneC
12-30-2008, 06:28 PM
I now Osensei is dead, but let me ask everyone.....where is the spirit of a loaf of bread?

GeneC
12-30-2008, 07:01 PM
My Sensei can testify, my whole career of Aikido, I was in need of knee surgery....I'm better now.

GeneC
12-30-2008, 07:05 PM
The toughest guy I now is my Siberian Huskey,.......who's 105.....(his name is Balloo...not my choice...he's my wife's {but he loves me more}....these are his last days)....

mathewjgano
12-30-2008, 08:17 PM
No, you didn't, but the implication....
That's one possible implication I suppose. My thinking is that the implication is simply that it takes more than hard work. Anything beyond that seems contrived to me.

Again, I don't know why you said anything past "forever"
"Again?" You said this already? In my attempt to be more clear I probably muddied it up more. I'll be the first to admit I tend to think too much and wind up getting tangled. Sorry.

....but, you say folks say things secretive because they don't intend to be staightforward....hmmm....

If I did, I meant to say some people would describe such behavior as not being straightforward. I think it's basically straightforward when the student has reached the necessary level of understanding, whatever that may be.

lbb
12-30-2008, 08:54 PM
Ok, Mary, Mary, quite contrary, my point is that folks that have a background in MA, can learn Aikido much faster than those who're just starting out and chose Aikido as their first MA....and this says much to me about you....

Does it? Let me return the favor and say that your whole approach to discourse says much to me about you. Make of that what you will.