Ki, Chi, and "Energy" [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

Erick Mead

12-09-2008, 12:05 AM

Aw, personally I think that what the Japanese mean when they talk about in a martial sense isn't understandable by anyone who doesn't have a working knowledge of Japanses AND a working knowledge of the way a Japanese speaker thinks.It is not THAT obscure. The modern usage of "ki" in the terms that Japanese martial arts presently refer to it, can be understood from Miura Baien's writings (18th cen.) where he developed the idea in terms quasi-physical, with relics of the mystical, that we are familiar with.

See here for his Genkiron which addresses "ki" at length. I have found it invaluable to understand a historical body of thought that underlies the modern Japanese usage of "ki" in physical contexts (it has many other and far wider connotative senses):
http://books.google.com/books?id=ccJguTM0jy8C&dq=Baien+Miura&pg=PP1&ots=z0WOoua-yG&source=an&sig=LNE0jhcOn4cX8bu2uj0NteF1xFY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA19,M1
... In the sense that Ki gets translated to what we say as energy, the closest it could be is kinetic energy or momentum. Kinetic energy doesn't work physically in the ways the Chinese and Japanese use the term ki or qi. Momentum is the right idea. But with the clearly cyclical nature of ki, linear momentum also will not work, so that leaves angular momentum. Cyclic motion defined about an arbitrary center. It serves to describe motion easily in both absolute and relative terms, depending on one's choice of center from which to define the motion. Even electromagnetic and vibrational energy can be described in terms of angular momentum of oscillations. O sensei has a Doka that speaks directly to this: the "demon snake" and "the spirit of bees" -- low and high frequency oscillations, respectively.

For purpose of aikido the most fascinating attribute of this perspective on the problem is The conservation of angular momentum is used extensively in analyzing what is called central force motion. If the net force on some body is directed always toward some fixed point, the center, then there is no torque on the body with respect to the center, and so the angular momentum of the body about the center is constant.

Or as we might say, the principle of Irimi-Tenkan.

Carsten Möllering

12-09-2008, 01:39 AM

A little bit one can see the differences between Japanese and Chinese understandig af ki and ch'i by comparing dictionarys.

The Japanese - English dictionary translates 気
(1) spirit; mind; heart
(2) nature; disposition
(3) motivation; intention
(4) mood; feelings
(5) atmosphere; essence;

The Chinese - English dictionary translates 気
air, gas, steam, vapor; spirit

The interpretation of 気 as energy, live-energy ... is a daoistic term. It has it's roots in that relegion or philosphy and can not be understood without that background.

In the aikido as taught to us the understanding of ki as intention is one very important aspect. In very short terms: ki = kokyu + intention.
That ist quite different from the understanding of ch'i in TCM or something like that.

Carsten

Harm-ony

12-09-2008, 05:11 AM

that seems make a sense, Carsten... :ai:

Bob Blackburn

12-09-2008, 07:03 AM

It is not THAT obscure. The modern usage of "ki" in the terms that Japanese martial arts presently refer to it, can be understood from Miura Baien's writings (18th cen.) where he developed the idea in terms quasi-physical, with relics of the mystical, that we are familiar with.

See here for his Genkiron which addresses "ki" at length. I have found it invaluable to understand a historical body of thought that underlies the modern Japanese usage of "ki" in physical contexts (it has many other and far wider connotative senses):
http://books.google.com/books?id=ccJguTM0jy8C&dq=Baien+Miura&pg=PP1&ots=z0WOoua-yG&source=an&sig=LNE0jhcOn4cX8bu2uj0NteF1xFY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA19,M1

Thanks for this reference. I saved for reading in detail later.

Stefan Stenudd

12-09-2008, 08:25 AM

The Chinese - English dictionary translates 気
air, gas, steam, vapor; spirit
The interpretation of 気 as energy, live-energy ... is a daoistic term. It has it's roots in that relegion or philosphy and can not be understood without that background.
Well, I have the impression that the Chinese (maybe the Japanese, too) make some distinction between the simplified 気 and the traditional :ki: - for example, see Wakan dictionary.
Certainly, Daoists give deep and complex meanings to qi, but I doubt that they were the first to do so. I don't think that it can be called a Daoist term only. It would probably be more correct to link its emergence to the book of the Yellow Emperor, the classic on Chinese traditional medicine.

Carsten Möllering

12-09-2008, 09:27 AM

Well, I have the impression that the Chinese (maybe the Japanese, too) make some distinction between the simplified 気 and the traditional :ki:
As far as I know, O Sensei did and never used the modern kanji.

But,
in very short terms because of my lack of english: The chines understanding ist more material than the japanese which is not so differentiated in this aspect.

Carsten

chuunen baka

12-09-2008, 09:38 AM

I was reading this thread and thinking about Gozo Shioda sensei's more down to earth definition which then turned up in another thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=101388&postcount=5):
In aikido we often use the word 'ki', or energy, but this word covers a variety of meanings. "Ki" as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, center line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the highest state of perfect balance. It might be said that 'ki' is the 'mastery of balance'.

To mangle another quote, sufficiently advanced technique is indistinguishable from magic. :)

Don

12-09-2008, 10:04 AM

Erik: Nice post. I'll look into that book. What I was getting at is that we in the west will inevitably lose something not only just because of the search for words in translation, but because the native concept as perceived in the person of whatever culture (japanese or chinese) is overlaid with cultural and historical inferences and experience that even a skilled translator may miss. But that's just what we have to deal with.

I appreciated the reference to angular momentum. In a western sense an appreciation of it is key as is our psychological and physical ability to intuit it as it changes in a technique.

But aw gee, since kinetic energy is integral to momentum they are related....(small perhaps obscure math joke.....)

Carsten Möllering

12-09-2008, 11:04 AM

I was reading this thread and thinking about Gozo Shioda sensei's more down to earth definitionIn aikido we often use the word 'ki', or energy, but this word covers a variety of meanings. "Ki" as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, center line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the highest state of perfect balance. It might be said that 'ki' is the 'mastery of balance'.
That's very near to how one of our main teachers speaks about ki:

Asked "Your choice is therefore to focus solely on the technique?" in an Interview, he answered:
"That is right because the technique will unlock the body! Once you have unlocked your body and removed all fears, the gesture will be fluid and this will allow more kokyu. If you add an intention to this kokyu, the Ki will naturally occur."

Harm-ony

12-09-2008, 02:45 PM

In the aikido as taught to us the understanding of ki as intention is one very important aspect. In very short terms: ki = kokyu + intention.
That ist quite different from the understanding of ch'i in TCM or something like that.

Carsten

Well, you put :ki: as an output here..
Is it possible to put :ki: as an input? or the process??

thanks, :ai:

Mike Sigman

12-09-2008, 03:51 PM

The Chinese - English dictionary translates 気
air, gas, steam, vapor; spirit

The interpretation of 気 as energy, live-energy ... is a daoistic term. It has it's roots in that relegion or philosphy and can not be understood without that background.

In the aikido as taught to us the understanding of ki as intention is one very important aspect. In very short terms: ki = kokyu + intention.
That ist quite different from the understanding of ch'i in TCM or something like that.
Actually, there's not really any difference but it would take a bit of discussion to clear it up, so I'll just offer the opinion that qi in TCM is actually the same qi that is the foundation of strength (particularly jin/kokyu) and health.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Janet Rosen

12-09-2008, 07:17 PM

Actually, there's not really any difference but it would take a bit of discussion to clear it up, so I'll just offer the opinion that qi in TCM is actually the same qi that is the foundation of strength (particularly jin/kokyu) and health.
FWIW

Experientially, I agree. I was exposed to the idea of "chi" earlier in life and coming to aikido never felt there was any difference between the "ki" I try to work with in aikido and the "chi" I try to work with when moving energy/changing blood flow patterns to relieve my migraine or when receiving acupuncture.

Stefan Stenudd

12-10-2008, 04:39 AM

Carsten Möllering

12-10-2008, 05:17 AM

I was exposed to the idea of "chi" earlier in life and coming to aikido never felt there was any difference between the "ki" I try to work with in aikido and the "chi" I try to work with when moving energy/changing blood flow patterns to relieve my migraine or when receiving acupuncture.

I think I know, what you mean. I'm doing shiatsu a little bit.
But in my experience it's not the same. In Aikido I use other facets of ki.

May I ask you which stile of Aikido you practice?

@ Mike:
In the "chinese understanding of ki", there are distinguished so many different types of ki, eachone having a name of its own.
I never experienced or read that concerning the "japanese understanding". Am I wrong?

How do you distinguish ki and kokyu e.g. when you breaht in through your feet and out through your eyes? What is ki, what is kokyu?

Are the aspects motivation, intention, mood, feelings also part of the "chinese understanding of qi"? I mean are they qi or follow they qi?

@ Harm-ony:
I don't think it's about input or output.
I think it's all about the flow of ki. We don't "generate" ki, but we can let it flow freely - or not.
In Ki-Aikido they have special Ki-exercises. We don't have them because we regard waza as such.
We only have kokyu exercises.

Maybe I misunderstood your question?

Carsten

Carsten Möllering

12-10-2008, 05:55 AM

I wrote a book about life force ideas around the world, and found that they can be sorted into categories. One of those categories is air based life force ideas, such as qi, ki, prana, spirit, ruach, and so on.

These concepts have great similarities, so I dare say that they have more to do with common human traits and circumstances than with cultural differences.

Here's the book, by the way:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1439200688/

Well I worked about the relationship of qi, ki and the christian "Holy Ghost" i.e. ruah, pneuma.
Because they are air based life force ideas as you call it, I assumed to find more similaryties then differences. Different terms, same concept I thought.

But I found I wasn't wright. You are wright: There are a lot similarities but, there are also some fundamental differences.

You can't seperate the understanding of ruah and pneuma from being the pneuma or ruah of god. Of him alone. This pneuma or ruah is send to his creation but it is not part it as ki/qi is:

Only god has ruah/pneuma. human beings / animals / trees have not. (Do we "have" ki?)
You can't direct ruah/pneuma as you can ki. You can't manage ruah/pneuma as you can ki in Shiatsu or Aikido.
You can't eat it or inhale it as you can ki.
You can't send it, as you can ki.

When God gives Adam live (Gen 2, 7) he "breathes into his nostris the breath of live" which to me is an equivalent of ki/qi the term ruah is not used in the hebrew text.

Or - am I wrong?

Carsten

Stefan Stenudd

12-10-2008, 08:25 AM

Dear Carsten, you can't be wrong, because this complex subject has no simple right or wrong :-)

About the biblical spirit, ruach, a lot can be said (and has been said, through more than 2000 years). For example:

In the Bible, there's not just one singular ruach definition. The book spans many centuries and many different sources.

Ruach being of God only can be interpreted as the life spirit being of divine nature, existing already at the creation of the world. This is actually a similarity to qi and ki ideas.
Ruach is something of God, but so is everything of his creation. The breath of God is what brings life to the world, much like qi or ki is an ever-present life energy.

You might not be able to direct ruach, but in the New Testament the apostles are filled with it (pneuma) in order to accomplish miracles and to speak the words of God. So, they are given it in order to be able to use it.

About Genesis 2:7, the term used is not ruach, but the "breath of life" is probably to be regarded as a synonym for it.

Me too, I might be wrong...

Erick Mead

12-10-2008, 08:48 AM

Well I worked about the relationship of qi, ki and the christian "Holy Ghost" i.e. ruah, pneuma. ...
You can't seperate the understanding of ruah and pneuma from being the pneuma or ruah of god. Of him alone. This pneuma or ruah is send to his creation but it is not part it as ki/qi is:

Only god has ruah/pneuma. human beings / animals / trees have not. (Do we "have" ki?)
You can't direct ruah/pneuma as you can ki. You can't manage ruah/pneuma as you can ki in Shiatsu or Aikido.
You can't eat it or inhale it as you can ki.
You can't send it, as you can ki.

When God gives Adam live (Gen 2, 7) he "breathes into his nostris the breath of live" which to me is an equivalent of ki/qi the term ruah is not used in the hebrew text.

Or - am I wrong? Ki, considered in physical terms as angular momentum, is a quantity, albeit a relative quantity because it depends entirely on choice of center, (or point of observation, equivalent to a "frame of reference"). It is the closest you come in classical mechanics to truly relativistic observations of motion and position in space. (If you follow Bishop Berkeley you can treat it as an absolute by considering all motion in relation to the "heavens of the fixed stars" but this, as he said is a convention, not a reality independent of the observer choosing it. The role of the observer cannot be dismissed, even classically, just as we see also in the perverse problems of quantum mechanics.

Kokyu is an ordering principle of that quantity. The principle of ordering divides Ki into to two apparently complementary natures, positive/negative, left/right, soft/hard, male/female, water/fire, in/yo .. etc. The binary complement understanding of the ordering is the more common conception of kokyu, but is also, as with absolute position and motion, merely a conventional ordering of a fundamental quantity. It need not have plus-minus ordering, either. It may be considered cyclical progress about the center (polar notation, for the math geeks).

Even the binary complements are also defined by a center. They move together in proper order from one predominating to the other predominating in turn. Center is not a simple geometric concept. The natural center of the male/female ordering pair, for instance, is not some dilute mixture of the two, but a child, a new being, male or female in its own right -- a new branching of the stem in Baien's conception of the unitive/divisive/creative ordering of Ki. BAien's image is of the tree as it branches -- one, becoming two, and being many -- some apparent (branches) and some hidden (roots) -- all at the same time. The center of fire/water, likewise, is steam (the pictographic basis for the image of KI, BTW) - a new thing not immediately known from the divided natures of a complementary or opposed ordering pair.

If we similarly treat the center/periphery as an ordering pair, the center may yet move during this progression of the "other" around it (relative to what, you say -- I know I know, bear with me) Then the result is not a circle but a spiral. The center moves in relation to yet again "something else" -- even cyclical progression is inherently seen also to be a "trinary" not a merely binary relationship.

Moving into the metaphysical, the temptation has been to over-read the physical relativity into a free-for-all in choices of ordering -- which is also incorrect. Kokyu, properly understood, is the "right ordering" of Ki in a given circumstance. There is a "right shape" (this is starting to sound a bit like the Noble Path, isn't it?) That order is as perceptible in any situation as it is variable and adaptable to many different circumstances in which it is found.

Consider the ordering pair of left/right. I have left eye and a right eye. Without both I cannot perceive three dimensional shape from a distance. Moreover, with both I can "see through" an obstacle to either one of them; putting a finger in front of one eye or the other, my bilocated perception allows me to see the reality the obstacle would block if I limited myself to the one eye with the impairment.

Biblically, this allows a couple of observations. The Gospel speaks of "skandalon" -- obstacles or stumbling blocks, things that block the progress of perception of the truth of reality. Christ summarizes all the Law and the prophets into the two Great Commandments of God: Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. And the second "like unto it," Love your neighbor as yourself. Self /God. Self/Neighbor. Ordering pairs again -- themselves set in an ordering pair. If you read Baien, this is a very familiar nested ordering, very much like the branching tree image he uses, very fractal in the mathematical sense of self-reflective.

The point is not to acknowledge the self as center and the "other" as peripheral, but to liberate perception by rightly ordering it -- and seeing with both centers (plural) of perception, and, ultimately, with ALL centers of perception . Let each be fully realized as a center of perception in its own right. In cooperating, in loving one another, these independent centers, like our own eyes, identify with one another; our perception is radically expanded, obstacles are defeated, and reality is seen in its true form.

"Before pointing out the mote in your brother's eye -- take the beam out of your own eye." Jesus thus directly illustrates this nature of perception and perspective. The EXACT SAME mote in my own eye seems as a beam -- whereas in my brother's eye it seems merely a mote.

The two commandments are the lessons of the Biblical text; Jesus even orders them in ultimate and proximate terms. From our perspective, the Second is the first lesson -- and a means to the First. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. First, learn to identify oneself with the "other" -- in particular. Then second, from that practical experience and training -- steadily learn to identify with the "Other" Universally.

Aikido is profound training in doing this. "Love your enemy." Liberating the centering perceptions of my whole body I learn to feel my opponent's structure and dynamic as I feel my own, and move with him as water and fire move together in creating steam. This is ki-musubi. This is kokyu-ho.

Mike Sigman

12-10-2008, 10:34 AM

@ Mike:
In the "chinese understanding of ki", there are distinguished so many different types of ki, eachone having a name of its own.
I never experienced or read that concerning the "japanese understanding". Am I wrong? Well, there are different aspects of ki, but the basic, fundamental ki is the same in both Japanese and Chinese understanding. The original idea that strength, health, etc., is a function of something called "ki" or "qi" is the basis of the theory which is used in both China and Japan. How do you distinguish ki and kokyu e.g. when you breaht in through your feet and out through your eyes? What is ki, what is kokyu?
"Kokyu" more or less equates to the idea of "jin", for all practical purposes. It's the idea of a form of strength that is associated with the breath and breath-related training built around a trained physical strength-skill (jin). "Jin" is considered to be "the physical manifestation of qi". So when, for instance, Koichi Tohei demonstrates a ki test the ki test works because Tohei brings his ki to a certain area and when Uke pushes against Tohei in that spot, Tohei is difficult to move. I.e., there is no real difference between the ki/qi in Chinese theory and the physical skills you mentioned in Aikido. It's all the same thing.

Incidentally, it's probably clearer for some applications if you interpret the character for ki/qi as "air pressure" or "pressure" and you'll begin to see some of the relationships in "pressure", "kokyu", and so forth.

Regards,

Mike

GeneC

12-10-2008, 01:36 PM

... And personally I don't think Ki has anything to do with X-rays gamma rays, or gravitation. In the sense that Ki gets translated to what we say as energy, the closest it could be is kinetic energy or momentum.

Didn't say it had anythng to do with other energies, just that it's in the same spectrum, but then this begs the questions: Can you create KI? Can you destroy it? or just channel (transfer) it? This is the definition of energy and ALL energies are in the Energy Spectrum, including kinetic and momentum( btw, gravity is electro-magnetic energy, the same energy that keeps us rotating and revolving around the Sun and keeps our atoms and molecules together). Do you deny it exists?

Mike Sigman

12-10-2008, 01:53 PM

Didn't say it had anythng to do with other energies, just that it's in the same spectrum, What "spectrum" is that? It's not the electromagnetic spectrum or it would be easy to measure. What you're saying is equivalent to giving credence to the Humours Theory from ancient times, talking about measuring them, and so on. It's a waste of time.

http://www.educationforum.co.uk/greekscross.htm

The Humours Theory was simply a wrong guess/explanation at how things worked. So is the ki/qi theory. Not that the phenomena they describe are non-existent; it's just that the way of explanation was a wrong guess that didn't pan out (you don't see scientists in Japan or China explaining things via "ki" do you?). The idea that ki is somehow measurable is a waste of time. but then this begs the questions: Can you create KI? Can you destroy it? or just channel (transfer) it? This is the definition of energy and ALL energies are in the Energy Spectrum, including kinetic and momentum( btw, gravity is electro-magnetic energy, the same energy that keeps us rotating and revolving around the Sun and keeps our atoms and molecules together). Do you deny it exists?That was a classic example of setting up a strawman argument. I won't even get into your assertion that gravity is electro-magnetic energy. :)

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman

12-10-2008, 01:57 PM

Ki, considered in physical terms as angular momentum, .... Hard to make them needles in acupuncture work if they're trying to work with angular momentum. Of course, I guess you do twirl the needles when you insert them..... :D

I hear one bid of electromagnetic energy, one bid of angular momentum.... do we have any further bids????

Mike

GeneC

12-10-2008, 02:25 PM

No bids here, if you choose to deny what's taught in Jr high science class, then "Whitney Hueston, we have a problem!"

Ok, the "Energy Spectrum" of the Universe, where ALL energies exist (based on the energy waves they emit, measurable and confirmed by scientist everywhere for along ,long time), including light, sound, heat, color, electricity etc. One thing is there's waves (energy) that they don't have the technology to measure yet. Believe it or not (I'm a big fan of Ripley's).

Mike Sigman

12-10-2008, 02:54 PM

No bids here, if you choose to deny what's taught in Jr high science class, then "Whitney Hueston, we have a problem!" I guess that's a valid point. We may have a different perspective because I went a little further than Jr. High School. :p

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Rennis Buchner

12-10-2008, 08:16 PM

In the "chinese understanding of ki", there are distinguished so many different types of ki, eachone having a name of its own.
I never experienced or read that concerning the "japanese understanding". Am I wrong?

In the ryu I am a member of there is one section, titled 習気, in the makimono devoted to ki which lists six different types of 気 to be learned. Related to that there are also a mess of 眼 to be mastered as well such as 正眼,天眼,地眼,人眼 among many others. The oldest surviving densho discussing these date from the later half of the 1600's so it would appear that at least some traditions did distinquish between different types of ki. As for the Japanese today, who knows... in most dojo here the topic of ki usually gets passed off with a sort of "it's very difficult, practice a bunch for a long time and it will naturally develop" sort of reply.

For what it's worth,
Rennis Buchner

eyrie

12-10-2008, 08:47 PM

which lists six different types of 気 to be learned. Rennis, can you clarify different "types"... or did you mean "aspects"?

Rennis Buchner

12-10-2008, 08:59 PM

Rennis, can you clarify different "types"... or did you mean "aspects"?

Six different names. A-ki, B-ki, C-ki, etc

eyrie

12-11-2008, 12:28 AM

Six different names. A-ki, B-ki, C-ki, etc Thanks Rennis. If you were bound by an oath of secrecy regarding these matters, then you should have kept it under your hat in the first place. And I'm sure that you didn't intend for this to come across in any way as an insult to intelligence. ;)

Rennis Buchner

12-11-2008, 03:05 AM

Thanks Rennis. If you were bound by an oath of secrecy regarding these matters, then you should have kept it under your hat in the first place. And I'm sure that you didn't intend for this to come across in any way as an insult to intelligence. ;)

No worries. The information is "publicly available" in that the 1600's densho in question is available for viewing and can sometimes be copied for private reseach upon request at a museum in Japan. That being said we still like to be tight lipped to a certain degree (yeah it is "public", but it is still "our" info darn in) coupled with the fact that I don't entirely have a full grasp of the subject matter in the first place, hence my reluctance to get into it in more depth. No oath breakage, just avoiding sticking my foot in my mouth in the future:D I just thought that the info was relevent in that it is one source of a Japanese art actually having more than one "universal" key.

BTW, the last reply's shortness was due to typing it while running out the door to work... Sorry if it came off sounding rude.

Random babbling mode off
Rennis

eyrie

12-11-2008, 04:34 AM

No problem. I figured it was some compelling reason like that.:)
However, it's still a piss poor excuse for divulging the information to begin with and then not sharing the details... :D (j/k)

Rennis Buchner

12-11-2008, 05:03 AM

No problem. I figured it was some compelling reason like that.:)
However, it's still a piss poor excuse for divulging the information to begin with and then not sharing the details... :D (j/k)

Well I suppose I could try and do a quick summary of 30 plus handwritten pages of details all written classical Japanese this evening. :hypno: .....then again maybe not. Really though, it's so much not that I wouldn't want to share the information, at least among certain circles, so much as that I just got copies of these densho recently and I need a couple of years to digest the 500 some pages of new information before I can really have any meaningful conversation on the topic.

Best,
Rennis

Erick Mead

12-11-2008, 07:46 AM

Hard to make them needles in acupuncture work if they're trying to work with angular momentum. Of course, I guess you do twirl the needles when you insert them..... :D

I hear one bid of electromagnetic energy, one bid of angular momentum.... do we have any further bids????

MikeElectromagnetic energy IS NOT different from angular momentum. Photons have zero mass but still have momentum. The reason is that the conventional formula for momentum (p) is p= mv, mass times velocity, but is only an approximation of the relativistic definition which is p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]. This is simply an algebraic conversion of the familiar E=mc^2 into terms of momentum.

In lay terms, if you zero the mass term, there is still a quantity of momentum -- we know light pushes on mass. Similarly, if you zero the energy term, there is still the resting moment of the inertial mass, and we know mass bends light. So the fact that a zero mass entity still affects other mass, and a zero energy mass still affects a zero mass photon, shows that momentum is actually the primary preserved quantity, just in two forms.

What that form of the equation p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]
shows is precisely what classical Chinese natural philosophy taught -- that the universe is divided in varying mixed proportions into the light ethereal qi (energy), and the heavy condensed qi (mass), but the root of both forms in Chinese thinking is the one primal qi (momentum). Since these cycle in Chinese thinking -- it is angular momentum in Western terms, and these two bodies of knowledge fit together.

Mike Sigman

12-11-2008, 08:05 AM

Electromagnetic energy IS NOT different from angular momentum. Unless angular momentum IS electromagnetic energy, it is different. Trust me on this one. "Similar to, in the following regards" might have done it, "is not different" won't do it. What that form of the equation p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]
shows is precisely what classical Chinese natural philosophy taught -- that the universe is divided in varying mixed proportions into the light ethereal qi (energy), and the heavy condensed qi (mass), but the root of both forms in Chinese thinking is the one primal qi (momentum). Since these cycle in Chinese thinking -- it is angular momentum in Western terms, and these two bodies of knowledge fit together. Ah jeez. So many dichotomies, so little time; each dichotomy proving itself to be "exactly" what the Chinese were talking about. :freaky:

The idea of "ki" didn't arrive from pre-historic Chinese having knowledge about the amount of energy released in an atomic explosion... it had to do with the way strength (and by association: health) was propagated within the body. That's really all it was. Everything else derived from those simple beginnings. They noted the roles the fascia/connective-tissues had to do with strength and they noted that the support of the ground and the pull of gravity had a lot to do with strength because of the way the body converts them and uses them. All else follows.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Stefan Stenudd

12-11-2008, 08:46 AM

The idea of "ki" didn't arrive from pre-historic Chinese having knowledge about the amount of energy released in an atomic explosion... it had to do with the way strength (and by association: health) was propagated within the body. That's really all it was. Everything else derived from those simple beginnings. They noted the roles the fascia/connective-tissues had to do with strength and they noted that the support of the ground and the pull of gravity had a lot to do with strength because of the way the body converts them and uses them. All else follows.
There's certainly not any primordial knowledge of Einstein's relativity behind the emergence of the ideas of qi. What was the start of it, though, is very hard to know for sure.

My guess is that it began with speculations about the difference between life and death, and the observations that breath was a decisive factor - those breathing were alive, those not were dead.
I allow myself to compare with many similar concepts across the globe, which seem also to have began with speculations about what life is, and what is essential for it.

Mike Sigman

12-11-2008, 09:12 AM

There's certainly not any primordial knowledge of Einstein's relativity behind the emergence of the ideas of qi. What was the start of it, though, is very hard to know for sure.

My guess is that it began with speculations about the difference between life and death, and the observations that breath was a decisive factor - those breathing were alive, those not were dead.
I allow myself to compare with many similar concepts across the globe, which seem also to have began with speculations about what life is, and what is essential for it.from A Manual of Acupuncture by Deadman et al:

Quote:
Different theories have been advanced to explain the discovery of the channels. These theories may be summarised as being of two main kinds: 1. points first, channels second and 2. channels first, points second. According to the first theory, centuries of observations of the existence of tender spots on the body during the course of disease, and the alleviation of symptoms when they were stimulated by massage or heat, led to the gradual discover of the acupuncture points. When sufficient points were known, they were linked into groups with common characteristics and effect, and aided by the observation of propagated sensation when they were stimulated, understanding of channel pathways followed. According to the second theory, propagated sensation during the course of massage and more especially the exploration of the internal landscape of the body through mediation and qigong practice, led to the discovery of the channel pathways, with the knowledge of specific points coming later. This second theory received strong confirmation from the significant discovery of a silk book during excavation of the Western Han tomb at Mawangdui, which describes the pathways of eleven channels but does not refer to any specific points.
If you've been exposed to traditional body mechanics in martial-arts postures, etc., the above explanation is redundant or at least supportive. How the body moves and propagates strength is the unerlying thesis for ki/qi and the idea originated pretty much beyond any doubt as the initial thesis from which acupuncture arose.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Voitokas

12-11-2008, 11:37 AM

They noted the roles the fascia/connective-tissues had to do with strength and they noted that the support of the ground and the pull of gravity had a lot to do with strength because of the way the body converts them and uses them. All else follows.That's kind of neat, like a self-winding watch! - so does the strength (or some of it) that propagates through the body originate in movement? Also, are the channels referred to in the acupuncture text merely conduits, or is strength propagated within those courses as well?
My knowledge of TCM is just about nil, so I'm finding this thread particularly interesting - keep it up!

Stefan Stenudd

12-11-2008, 02:05 PM

If you've been exposed to traditional body mechanics in martial-arts postures, etc., the above explanation is redundant or at least supportive. How the body moves and propagates strength is the unerlying thesis for ki/qi and the idea originated pretty much beyond any doubt as the initial thesis from which acupuncture arose.
Well, that quote refers to the meridians and points used in acupuncture, but I was talking about qi - and that concept may very well precede the acupuncture ideas.

Erick Mead

12-11-2008, 03:02 PM

The idea of "ki" didn't arrive from pre-historic Chinese having knowledge about the amount of energy released in an atomic explosion... it had to do with the way strength (and by association: health) was propagated within the body. That's really all it was. Yes. And "energy" began as "vital essence." Those concepts did not remain stuck where they began in the understanding of the cultures that developed them. Both systems are reflections upon observations of nature and the patterns of things going on in the world.

The Chinese were astute enough to reason out a patterned system from more rudimentary information than we now have. Later, more rigorous observation and reasoning from larger bodies of evidence seems still to fit their essential patterns, and is a testament to their observations and their reasoning about the nature of the patterns, not some idea that they had developed relativity and a concept of the speed of light.

The issue, really, is whether the two systems can connect in someway more meaningful than gross analogy or metaphorical associations. Physically, at least, they can and do in the way I have described.

Janet Rosen

12-11-2008, 05:33 PM

two quick comments:
1. When I first learned about myofascial therapies, I was struck by (what seemed to me, with exposure to both but not real training...) the similarities between myofascial junctions in the body and the location of TCM channels. Not being a practitioner I never went further to essay a specific comparision.
2. For anybody interested in the subject, a book I've read twice now and very strongly recommend is The Expressiveness of the Body: The Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine (http://www.amazon.com/Expressiveness-Divergence-Greek-Chinese-Medicine/dp/0942299892/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229041669&sr=8-1) It is very well written. As a nurse I loved the long discourse on what different practitioners are actually feeling/finding when they "take the pulse." And it goes further to explore how their divergence really reflects two different ways of considering what it means to be a human being.

Mike Sigman

12-11-2008, 08:05 PM

Well, that quote refers to the meridians and points used in acupuncture, but I was talking about qi - and that concept may very well precede the acupuncture ideas.No, that quote refers to muscle-tendon channels; they preceeded the more refined acupuncture meridians. And there's little doubt the muscle-tendon channels were studies of how the body moved while the idea of qi was posited as the defining paradigm. The discussions of how movement correlates with qi/ki are common in martial arts, although you may not have encountered them.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Voitokas

12-11-2008, 09:02 PM

2. For anybody interested in the subject, a book I've read twice now and very strongly recommend is The Expressiveness of the Body: The Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine It is very well written. As a nurse I loved the long discourse on what different practitioners are actually feeling/finding when they "take the pulse." And it goes further to explore how their divergence really reflects two different ways of considering what it means to be a human being.I actually picked up a copy of the book second-hand a year ago but haven't gotten around to it yet - I will now, though; thanks for the recommendation!

Stefan Stenudd

12-12-2008, 01:25 AM

The discussions of how movement correlates with qi/ki are common in martial arts, although you may not have encountered them.
I was not at all refering to that discussion, but to the question of the origin of the qi concept. I thought I had made that clear.

Mike Sigman

12-12-2008, 08:45 AM

I was not at all refering to that discussion, but to the question of the origin of the qi concept. I thought I had made that clear.Stefan, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there is a valid body of thought that the idea of ki came from the early explanations of how the body moves. I.e., that discussion I just pointed out has a very great deal to do (potentially) with the "origin of the qi concept". The human body is thought to be a reflection of how the universe works... and vice versa. Think about that and which theory came first. No one knows for sure. But I think we can assume that it would be odd if the actual movement of the human body coincidentally conformed with some disparate view of how the cosmos works, right?

Mike Sigman

jennifer paige smith

12-12-2008, 09:06 AM

Stefan, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there is a valid body of thought that the idea of ki came from the early explanations of how the body moves. I.e., that discussion I just pointed out has a very great deal to do (potentially) with the "origin of the qi concept". The human body is thought to be a reflection of how the universe works... and vice versa. Think about that and which theory came first. No one knows for sure. But I think we can assume that it would be odd if the actual movement of the human body coincidentally conformed with some disparate view of how the cosmos works, right?

Mike Sigman

I think it would be perfectly consistent, however, to consider that as the emergence of man continued along the observation that he worked the same as the world around him would give rise to language that communicated this insight.

BTW, welcome back, Mike.

GeneC

12-12-2008, 03:15 PM

A little bit one can see the differences between Japanese and Chinese understandig af ki and ch'i by comparing dictionarys.

The Japanese - English dictionary translates µ¤
(1) spirit; mind; heart
(2) nature; disposition
(3) motivation; intention
(4) mood; feelings
(5) atmosphere; essence;

The Chinese - English dictionary translates µ¤
air, gas, steam, vapor; spirit Carsten

So 2 of the 5 match exactly (assuming these are accurate), pretty darn close (not like two completely different meanings). I have never heard of Ki used to describe disposition, intention or mood. Power , spirit, energy, yes.

GeneC

12-12-2008, 03:21 PM

The idea of "ki" didn't arrive from pre-historic Chinese having knowledge about the amount of energy released in an atomic explosion... it had to do with the way strength (and by association: health) was propagated within the body. FWIW Mike Sigman

I believe it has to do with drawing from the energy in the Universe and channeling it out thru your body in a particularly explosive movement.

Adman

12-12-2008, 04:19 PM

I believe it has to do with drawing from the energy in the Universe and channeling it out thru your body in a particularly explosive movement.

Hi Clarence,

I'm not sure what you're responding to in Mike's post, that you quoted.
Are you saying (from the above quote) what you believe, or what you thought the Chinese believed?

Thanks,
Adam

GeneC

12-12-2008, 04:36 PM

I guess that's a valid point. We may have a different perspective because I went a little further than Jr. High School. :p Regards,Mike Sigman

I'm tempted to say something equally "cute" like, "Oh really? I couldn't tell. "or something, but I won't. I'll let you go on being cute. Btw, schooling doesn't necessarily make one smart and certainly not wise.

I don't know what exactly Acupuncture has to do with Ki/chi/energy (in the context of tapping into the Universal energy), but I'm taking Acupuncture right now and the Dr who's doing it explained it to me that it's all about our brains and spinal cords and the pathways thrughout our body. That electrical current (energy= Ki, Chi) runs thru our body and to our muscles and organs. Poor posture, diet, pollutants( drugs, alcohol, smoke, processed food, polllution, etc) block the paths (like logjams or blockages) and the needles (and heat or electical current to the needle, which I get) opens up those paths (or closes certain paths in the case of pain or addictions) so a good flow of energy (chi.ki) takes place. while this may good for good health, I'm talking about tapping into an outside energy that exists outdside the body and channeling it thru the body and out into action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDC23K54XHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBN0b4qcyY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xYrIHtdfUA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREGdnxMh2Q

Carsten Möllering

12-12-2008, 04:44 PM

I have never heard of Ki used to describe disposition, intention or mood.???

But that's a very big point in the "japanese understanding" of ki?
(Different of the "chinese understanding"?)

I don't do Ki-Aikido. But I was told that "intention" is the metaphor used in Ki-Aikido in Europe.

I know fellows that lived in Japan for a while, one of our shihan is japanese, I got a friend whose girlfriend is japanese ... : disposition, intention, mood or feeling in common sense is ki.

Carsten

Voitokas

12-12-2008, 05:10 PM

???

But that's a very big point in the "japanese understanding" of ki?
(Different of the "chinese understanding"?)

I don't do Ki-Aikido. But I was told that "intention" is the metaphor used in Ki-Aikido in Europe.

I know fellows that lived in Japan for a while, one of our shihan is japanese, I got a friend whose girlfriend is japanese ... : disposition, intention, mood or feeling in common sense is ki.

CarstenHmm. I haven't practised with the Ki Aikido fellows either...
I guess I think of intention as the direction of ki projection rather than ki itself. Being a math/science kind of person, I picture the place where I'm grounded (e.g., my back foot) as the origin and the ray of my intention (e.g., from my tanden to your arm or whatever) as the pointy-arrow of a vector.
That is to say, I think of intention as a direction more than as a force in itself. It's interesting how the flavour of an idea changes a little when one uses different words to handle it!

Adman

12-12-2008, 05:39 PM

... I'm talking about tapping into an outside energy that exists outdside the body and channeling it thru the body and out into action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDC23K54XHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBN0b4qcyY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xYrIHtdfUA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREGdnxMh2Q

Are you implying that the above video links are examples of "tapping into an outside energy"? Since this thread is located under "Spirituality", I'm just curious if you think it's possible to perform any of O'Sensei's demonstrations without it.

Thanks,
Adam

Rennis Buchner

12-12-2008, 06:09 PM

???

But that's a very big point in the "japanese understanding" of ki?
(Different of the "chinese understanding"?)

I don't do Ki-Aikido. But I was told that "intention" is the metaphor used in Ki-Aikido in Europe.

I know fellows that lived in Japan for a while, one of our shihan is japanese, I got a friend whose girlfriend is japanese ... : disposition, intention, mood or feeling in common sense is ki.

I have to second this. "Intent" etc is obviously not the whole sum of ki, but in everyday conversation here with everyday people I'd say the bulk of the use of "ki"in conversation involves intention, while discussions of ki in the martial arts type of understanding like we see here are pretty unusual and tend to happen in small groups like... martial artists.:D

Random info,
Rennis Buchner

Sy Labthavikul

12-12-2008, 06:56 PM

Hmm. I haven't practised with the Ki Aikido fellows either...
I guess I think of intention as the direction of ki projection rather than ki itself. Being a math/science kind of person, I picture the place where I'm grounded (e.g., my back foot) as the origin and the ray of my intention (e.g., from my tanden to your arm or whatever) as the pointy-arrow of a vector.
That is to say, I think of intention as a direction more than as a force in itself. It's interesting how the flavour of an idea changes a little when one uses different words to handle it!

Having no real expert knowledge of qi/ki in the sense that it was used historically by the Chinese and Japanese, but being an avid lover of intellectualizing any kind of body movement into the realm of physics and kinesiology (i.e., I'm also a math/science kind of guy), I've also tended to define ki in a similar way, as a vector of intention and focus and also the full capabilities of an entire human body moving mechanically efficiently.

Now that I think of it, that is a kind of energy, isn't it? Focused kinetic energy generated by a person. Makes sense that our martial arts forebears in China and Japan, who obviously had never heard of anything remotely like "one half em vee squared" would consider such applications of power to be mystical/spiritual. What else could it be?

But to me, energy is energy. I just think the energy of qi/ki happens to have a wholly mundane explanation.

If qi/ki is focused application of efficient body movement, it makes sense (at least to me) that qi/ki has always been linked to breathing/breath. Breathing properly obviously aids in attaining that focus: I'm sure we've all experienced the calming, relaxing, focusing effect of just breathing and counting to 10 (I just did when some bleephole cut me off on the 110 freeway).

Breathing properly is also required for efficient body movement; the movement of the diaphragm and all the other pulmonary muscles is necessary to prevent all the surrounding muscles in the core from "locking up" and tensing prematurely, and allows for smooth transference of muscular energy throughout the body (say from pushing off the ground, into the core, through the chest/shoulders/arms into an explosive punch). A clock won't work if a single cog in all that fancy Swiss mechanism is jammed, right?

My (somewhat facetious) guess was some of our martial arts predecessors thought "hey, check out my breathing as I perform this awesome feat of martial prowess." And without benefit of any other intellectual framework to aid them, they decided that the breath was both necessary and sufficient to explain the phenomena (instead of just necessary), and so the definition of qi/ki as "breath."

And "breathing" is also necessary for life, so qi/ki must be some sort of lifeforce. But how does this lifeforce move around? Well, we also need blood for life, and blood kind of flows about the body in veins and arteries and capillaries and whathaveyou, so this lifeforce qi/ki probably also flows through meridians and channels throughout our body.

But we can't physically find them! Thats all right, we couldn't find the aether or phlogiston or N-rays or polywater, but that didn't stop those scientists from using all that jazz to explain natural phenomena. And even today, we STILL can't find dark matter or the Higgs boson or vibrating superstrings and supersheets!

Nowadays with our (very limited) understanding of neuroscience, some people are using the concept of electrical impulses or chemical messengers as the medium by which qi/ki is propagated, but if you look at it closely, these arguments are no more or no less valid than the "breath" or "blood" explanations: you've just substituted mediums.

Ok, this is getting longwinded, but my point is, ultimately human beings love to find order in disorder, and to force explanation after the fact.

In In the Dojo, when Dave Lowry discusses the origin of the popular idea that the 7 pleats of the hakama represent the 7 virtues of budo, he writes "Like nature's reaction to a vacuum, it is a characteristic of the human imagination that, where a space exists, we find something to fill it in... I suspect... [this explanation]... is fantasy or, at best, an ambitious bit of back-formation."

I have a question to ask everyone though; do you think this old definition of qi/ki is helping or hindering the teaching of its application? I personally think if it is used in a metaphorical or symbolic way, it can aid in teaching the cultivation of qi/ki, but if its used as the ONLY explanation, unsupported by valid kinesiology, it can be pathological and hinder people's understanding.

Then again, like Jeremy Morrison signature says, I'm not an expert in anything. But you guys are, so what are your thoughts?

Erick Mead

12-12-2008, 07:27 PM

I have to second this. "Intent" etc is obviously not the whole sum of ki, but in everyday conversation here with everyday people I'd say the bulk of the use of "ki"in conversation involves intention, while discussions of ki in the martial arts type of understanding like we see here are pretty unusual and tend to happen in small groups like... martial artists.:DThat is a fascinating thing (to me) about the proposition of ki tracking angular momentum -- angular momentum is dependent on the point of observation -- the center defined as "unmoving" -- which draws in the subjective intentional element into the objective physical description but in a rigorous way.

C. David Henderson

12-13-2008, 01:21 PM

I'm sorry, Erick, but I didn't follow that thought completely. Could you say more? Thanks.

DH

Stefan Stenudd

12-14-2008, 07:46 AM

Stefan, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there is a valid body of thought that the idea of ki came from the early explanations of how the body moves. I.e., that discussion I just pointed out has a very great deal to do (potentially) with the "origin of the qi concept". The human body is thought to be a reflection of how the universe works... and vice versa. Think about that and which theory came first. No one knows for sure. But I think we can assume that it would be odd if the actual movement of the human body coincidentally conformed with some disparate view of how the cosmos works, right?
I certainly agree with you that nobody knows for sure. About qi, though, there are strong indications that the concept is linked to air, and the necessity to breathe in order to stay alive. The meaning of the word, as well as the kanji, definitely points in that direction. So does a comparison with so many similar ideas around the world, linking a life force to air and breath.

Of course, breath is a bodily function, and living is signified by moving - so I guess that in some way we say the same thing :)

GeneC

12-14-2008, 11:54 AM

Are you implying that the above video links are examples of "tapping into an outside energy"? Since this thread is located under "Spirituality", I'm just curious if you think it's possible to perform any of O'Sensei's demonstrations without it.Thanks,Adam

Yes, I am.

Is it possible to perform Aikido techniques without Ki? I suppose, but they probably wouldn't be nearly as effective as with it. Some would be impossible, imo. Ki is that energy that's "out there" in the Universe, that we can tap into (apparently by breathing), that allows us to perform "super-human" feats, meaning stuff that normal, everyday folks couldn't do. I guess the goal of Aikido is to harmonize with that energy, Or else to breathe really good.

GeneC

12-14-2008, 01:16 PM

I have a question to ask everyone though; do you think this old definition of qi/ki is helping or hindering the teaching of its application? I personally think if it is used in a metaphorical or symbolic way, it can aid in teaching the cultivation of qi/ki, but if its used as the ONLY explanation, unsupported by valid kinesiology, it can be pathological and hinder people's understanding.

Not real sure about which "old definition" you're talkin' about, but I'd say go ahead and stand in front of me and I'll throw a punch with just my arm, then I'll take a good solid stance and get my breathing going and then reach back from way out here in Vegas and haul off and punch you thru to the Pacific, yelling like a Banshee and see if you can tell a difference. What kind of definiton does that need?

Sy Labthavikul

12-14-2008, 01:30 PM

Not real sure about which "old definition" you're talkin' about, but I'd say go ahead and stand in front of me and I'll throw a punch with just my arm, then I'll take a good solid stance and get my breathing going and then reach back from way out here in Vegas and haul off and punch you thru to the Pacific, yelling like a Banshee and see if you can tell a difference. What kind of definiton does that need?

Oops, sorry I wasn't being clear. I guess by "old definition" I meant "standard definition," and this question was really posed in the context of teaching the cultivation of these kinds of skills to people who don't yet have them. There's tons of examples of organizations purportedly teaching qi/ki skills who simply refer to it as some mysterious breath/lifeforce/energy and teach a lot of mystical mumbo-jumbo (Yellow Bamboo Association, anyone?), and a lot of people buy into these.

Of course, if you already have these skills, then these definitions are just an academic thing and not too important (though still interesting to think about). If you quack like a duck and move like a duck, then people can argue whether or not to call you a duck, but either way you still can go fly off for a nice swim in a lake when the academics start getting dry.

Erick Mead

12-14-2008, 06:10 PM

I'm sorry, Erick, but I didn't follow that thought completely. Could you say more? Thanks.It is not a new observation, by any means. Dealing with Ki in terms of intent, illustrates the importance of angular momentum as the basis for physical conventions most closely fitting the problem.

The first exercise of intent is in the choice of perspective in perception. Every one with two eyes and a working occipital lobe has at least three different visual perspectives in their own head. Left eye, right eye and the colaesced perspective that is centered on neither eye. That position of observation is in Indian thought called "san paku" -- the "third eye" that sees the coalesced vision and lies outside of and not physically tied to the perspectives of the other two. In aikido, to my way of thinking, this operation is made kinesthetic, rather than visual -- but the reality and the principles are all the same.

Bishop Berkeley followed this line of thought when coming at odds with Newton in the early eighteenth century about whether space and position were absolute. Newton said they were; Berkeley said they weren't, and that the point intentionally chosen or defined for an observation established the only "fixed" frame of measure. He anticipated Ernst Mach and later Einstein who ran out the full implications of the concept that position, velocity and space were all relative in fundamental terms. Angular momentum is very useful in this context because it undefined except with regard to an unmoving center of observation -- which relativity (since at least the time of Berkeley) tells us is an arbitrary (therefore intentional and subjective) choice.

Berkeley said that for conventional purposes you could use the "heavens of the fixed stars" as an "unmoving" absolute reference frame of space, (and in fact this is what almost everyoine does) but he maintained it was only that, a convention for reference, not a real absolute. Turns out he was right.

Even "straight line" constant velocity movement can be described as angualr momentum. Motion is perceived as angular shift across the field of view (in varying velocity -- just as we hear Doppler shifts in apparent velocity, and actually do see velocity as variable from our perspectives). It is only our conventions that defined velocity as fixed and motion as straight lines -- which we have deliberately chosen -- for simplicity of analysis, not for conformity to our actual sense of perception.

The fact is that, in addition to showing a fundamental observer bias in classical mechanics (a subjective intentional perspective), Berkeley also presaged the related observer paradox of quantum mechanics in his famous sound of a falling tree query. In him we see observer/subjective determinations becoming welded to the equally valid objective reality, such that to sever the two is a fundamental error of thought.

From the perspective of Aikido, whether I move my opponent, or my opponent moves me, or we move together around a common center is really a question of choice of point of observation of the encounter. That does not imply that all perspectives are equal, absolutely or relatively. If I choose a superior perspective, and my opponent chooses a poorer one I have a definitive advantage

I like to use the vision example -- I have two eyes. If one eye's line of sight is blocked, the other eye is not necessarily blocked. They each see from a different center. When I feel my opponent's dynamic, I am not committed my own point of observation in the encounter. If he is committed to his "vision" of the physical dynamic his perception from that perspective may become blocked in some way. Since he has committed to his own perspective alone, he has, in essence, closed his other proverbial eye that would open his perspective to perceive the area beyond that partial obstacle obscuring his perception -- just as it does with vision.

I, on the other hand (if I have trained kokyu tanden ho properly so as to sense structure, kinesthetically and intuitively), can perceive the structural dynamic from at least three standpoints -- mine, his, and a third one that is the equivalent of mine and his in stereo, like the different vision of my two eyes are perceived from yet a third perspective that is different from both. San paku in physical terms This is generally the best perspective of all.

Erick Mead

12-14-2008, 06:20 PM

Are you implying that the above video links are examples of "tapping into an outside energy"? Since this thread is located under "Spirituality", I'm just curious if you think it's possible to perform any of O'Sensei's demonstrations without it.Yes, I am.

Is it possible to perform Aikido techniques without Ki? I suppose, but they probably wouldn't be nearly as effective as with it. Some would be impossible, imo. Ki is that energy that's "out there" in the Universe, that we can tap into (apparently by breathing), that allows us to perform "super-human" feats, meaning stuff that normal, everyday folks couldn't do. I guess the goal of Aikido is to harmonize with that energy, Or else to breathe really good. Of course he used an "outside energy" there were at least four guys pushing on his head giving it to him... :D

C. David Henderson

12-14-2008, 07:41 PM

Erick,

Thanks for taking time to reply. The core idea you present of stereo vision and its analogy to an aikido interaction I find interesting and apt.

You certainly are correct, as well, that absolute time and absolute space, qua objective containers of matter and energy, simply doesn't exist. Rather, time and space are "generated" by the objects in the universe of reference. I'm not sure I think there needs to be a necessary relationship between this observation and what I labeled the "core idea" I took from your post, but maybe that's just me.

Still, your description of left eye, right eye, and stereoscopic vision and use of that description as a metaphor for physical interaction I find thought provoking.

Regards,

DH

Erick Mead

12-14-2008, 08:32 PM

... absolute time and absolute space, qua objective containers of matter and energy, simply doesn't exist. Rather, time and space are "generated" by the objects in the universe of reference. I'm not sure I think there needs to be a necessary relationship between this observation and what I labeled the "core idea" I took from your post, but maybe that's just me. I was tying the aspects of intentionality, which is very much part of the common usage of the term Ki to the aspect of centers of perception of action. While people's usage of terms often diverges from a "core idea" into connotative channels that may be far removed, yet there is still a reason and a principle by which the two still relate that may be understood.. In their respective contexts there is a relationship that helps explain why the same term has been co-opted for seemingly different purposes. Language is only rarely a purely ad hoc affair.

In my search for the correct physical convention in western terms for the concepts of Ki as they are practically used in aikido, I keep finding that the fit of the one I have been working through is better in many ways and in many areas than I had expected -- even metaphysically. This leads me to conclude that whatever errors I may (and often am) committing in the process of working this out -- some important root elements of it are spot on.

I find this thread of connection to be present in the practice of aikido as it has been given to me to try to preserve and develop in what ways I can. The Founder's various (and very difficult) descriptions are taken take by many people (often very serious and otherwise well-informed people) as "ramblings".. This seems to me a category error. The myth, spirituality and the physical side are not so divergent to my mind, even though I do not share in the often wispy spiritualist bent that often seems to come with taking O Sensei's spiritualtiy and his mythological expressions seriously.

A serious mind was at work in generating the practice of aikido. For all his recondite mythological thinking, I find it hard to deny the same sort of seriousness in the effort shown in his written work (or his recorded lectures) disclosed, most notably in the Doka.

They are poetry. Poetry is, above all, an expression of thinking about physicality and perception and the ways they play upon one another. As I see it, that is essentially what Aikido is about. Many people seem to take the Doka as spiritual things divorced from the practical aspects of understanding aikido and its principles. To the contrary, I think they are very much among the soundest guides, properly understood as the poetry that they are. They may be bad poetry and still accomplish the purposes he likely intended

Still, your description of left eye, right eye, and stereoscopic vision and use of that description as a metaphor for physical interaction I find thought provoking.Metaphor? I am less and less sure of that. There are things I feel about my own body that rely on transmission by the structure itself, rather than secondary direct neural transmission. The latter is quite slow, actually, especially comaped to some things in a fast moving setting of combat.

I speak of vibration, mainly, oscillation in cycles, subconscious stuff. That aspect of Ki I also find described best in terms of angular momentum, and exploited in terms of things like resonance. But in kokyu tanden ho I truly can feel when my entry into my partner's structure is past his wrist, past his elbow, then at his shoulder, then at his neck and down into his spine and then at this center. I can feel this without visual cues.

People that taught me described in ijn similar ways before I knew what the devil they were talking about, but now I do. I can see why they described it the way they did. Sure, half-way good people can defeat a throw using the same things to counter, especially in set-piece things like koky tanden ho -- but that just shows the advantage to an imbalance of perception. Something is being communicated that I perceive, and it need be nothing more spooky than vibrations -- hearing with my bones, as it were. But then, the ears evolved from jostling bones -- didn't they? So maybe this is not such a wild idea after all, and maybe not a metaphor at all. .

C. David Henderson

12-15-2008, 09:44 AM

I
Metaphor? I am less and less sure of that. There are things I feel about my own body that rely on transmission by the structure itself, rather than secondary direct neural transmission. The latter is quite slow, actually, especially comaped to some things in a fast moving setting of combat.

I speak of vibration, mainly, oscillation in cycles, subconscious stuff. That aspect of Ki I also find described best in terms of angular momentum, and exploited in terms of things like resonance. But in kokyu tanden ho I truly can feel when my entry into my partner's structure is past his wrist, past his elbow, then at his shoulder, then at his neck and down into his spine and then at this center. I can feel this without visual cues.

People that taught me described in ijn similar ways before I knew what the devil they were talking about, but now I do. I can see why they described it the way they did. Sure, half-way good people can defeat a throw using the same things to counter, especially in set-piece things like koky tanden ho -- but that just shows the advantage to an imbalance of perception. Something is being communicated that I perceive, and it need be nothing more spooky than vibrations -- hearing with my bones, as it were. But then, the ears evolved from jostling bones -- didn't they? So maybe this is not such a wild idea after all, and maybe not a metaphor at all. .

Hi Erick,

Well, the connection to quantum gravity still isn't there for me, but no worries; there is a lot here that I find quite thought provoking.

Particularly the part quoted above. By the way, I wasn't saying your description of what you experience in contact was a metaphor for what is really happening. Direct transmission of impulse through the body, oscillation, resonnance -- I accept those aren't metaphors for something else, and "hearing with my bones," well that may be a metaphor, but its another good one.

Thanks, as always.

DH

Erick Mead

12-15-2008, 11:11 AM

Well, the connection to quantum gravity still isn't there for me, but no worries; there is a lot here that I find quite thought provoking.

Particularly the part quoted above. By the way, I wasn't saying your description of what you experience in contact was a metaphor for what is really happening. Direct transmission of impulse through the body, oscillation, resonnance -- I accept those aren't metaphors for something else, and "hearing with my bones," well that may be a metaphor, but its another good one.Quantum gravity is to wispy science what some approaches to O Sensei's mythology are to wispy spirituality. No worries there.

Considering resonance has been a very fruitful aspect of practically applying this line of thought (or more accurately, seeing why things that we are already doing make sense physically). Furitama provokes whole-body vibration at a low resonance. That cannot be an accident. Tekubifuri is an overdriven resonant pulse oscillation that lifts and drops the whole structure remotely, without conscious muscular effort (other than to maintain the correct wrist shaking frequency). Funetori is a lower frequency, more undulating oscillation cycle. The Doka speaks of the "demon snake and the spirit of bees. I get it.

Resonant relationships are 90 degrees out, i.e. -- + juji. Intersecting phases of oscillation at 90 degrees difference oppose zero to the maximum negative and positive phases of the other and vice versa -- hence "no resistance" in the sense of a diminishing opposed signal.

Apart from the interesting intersection that juji provokes for me with Christian teaching (pun anyone?), this is verging well outside of the "spiritual" forum topic so I'll leave it at that. But fundamentally I see the division between physical and spiritual is as artificial or conventional as the division between objective and subjective perspectives.

Sy Labthavikul

12-15-2008, 12:38 PM

Considering resonance has been a very fruitful aspect of practically applying this line of thought (or more accurately, seeing why things that we are already doing make sense physically). Furitama provokes whole-body vibration at a low resonance. That cannot be an accident. Tekubifuri is an overdriven resonant pulse oscillation that lifts and drops the whole structure remotely, without conscious muscular effort (other than to maintain the correct wrist shaking frequency). Funetori is a lower frequency, more undulating oscillation cycle. The Doka speaks of the "demon snake and the spirit of bees. I get it.

Resonant relationships are 90 degrees out, i.e. -- + juji. Intersecting phases of oscillation at 90 degrees difference oppose zero to the maximum negative and positive phases of the other and vice versa -- hence "no resistance" in the sense of a diminishing opposed signal.

Oh boy, Erick, this talk of resonant frequencies out of phase and drawing parallels between orthogonal resonance modes (where orthogonality is mathematical) to the perpendicular lines of a cross, juji (where orthogonality is physical) just reminds me somewhat nostalgically of my days at Caltech trying really hard to sleep through class without my professor noticing.

I've heard an avid sailor compare juji in jujinage to turning the wheel of a ship, and I've heard an engineer talking about it pragmatically as the lever of one arm working on the fulcrum of the elbow of the other arm, but never as wave functions or signal processing. :-)

I think we're just different travelers, all looking at the same Mount Aiki from different angles.

C. David Henderson

12-15-2008, 01:40 PM

For me, the talk of resonnance made sense the first time I ran across it (from Erick's writing, not coincidentally). Since then, I have sometimes tried to observe how the timing of my "inputs" into a technique affected, for example, the amplitude of uke's reaction in the following phase of the technique.

Based on that experiment, and for this erstwhile traveler at least, this particular signpost seemed pointed in a useful direction, i.e., in a direction that seems to lead more up that down the mountain. FWIW.

DH

Erick Mead

12-15-2008, 02:07 PM

Oh boy, Erick, this talk of resonant frequencies out of phase and drawing parallels between orthogonal resonance modes (where orthogonality is mathematical) to the perpendicular lines of a cross, juji (where orthogonality is physical) just reminds me somewhat nostalgically of my days at Caltech trying really hard to sleep through class without my professor noticing. You don't have a slide rule glued to your tsuka? ;) OK it was my father's slide rule -- I admit. Being a traditionalist, that makes it nostalgia, on my part, and the calculator, even these days, still seems to WAY too clunky as a koshirae.

More seriously, are you saying that the mathematical and the physical relationships of physically orthogonal and mathematical orthogonal cyclic processes are not significant to actual practical experience? Because if you are, I -- and about every other helicopter pilot on the planet -- would seriously argue the point with you. I know some people think that helos only hover out of a black magic drawn from the evil that men do, -- but I swear -- it is not so ...

I've heard an avid sailor compare juji in jujinage to turning the wheel of a ship, and I've heard an engineer talking about it pragmatically as the lever of one arm working on the fulcrum of the elbow of the other arm, but never as wave functions or signal processing. :-) Yeah. But those were analogies -- this isn't. Angular momentum and the observer problem are part and parcel of the {{Oh Holy Crap}} moments of well executed aikido that we never see coming.

Funnily enough, my exploration this direction came with the comment by an instructor of mine that aikido used no leverage. That caused me to begin asking the question how to move and shift something using no leverage. Then I learned to fly helicopters and learned vortices, played with a rope, imagined my arm as a rope -- and the rest is history.

See, this is where it got me, so be careful of idle comments ...

I think we're just different travelers, all looking at the same Mount Aiki from different angles.Very, very likely.

GeneC

12-15-2008, 09:51 PM

Of course he used an "outside energy" there were at least four guys pushing on his head giving it to him... :D

So, with that 'quantum' knowledge, how do you explain how Osensei was able to resist those four and then toss them back with such force?

Sy Labthavikul

12-16-2008, 12:19 AM

Are you talking about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxxb2ctulEs#t=2m

I have seen taijiquan practitioners also do the "push-on-head" demonstration. I have always thought it was an example of grounding - realigning the bodily structure so that any incoming force is redirected through the body into the ground. I'm definitely the least qualified here to discuss it; Mike Sigman or Dan Harden or a bunch of others definitely could explain it better.

Ultimately, those four guys weren't pushing on O'Sensei, they were pushing on the ground. In fact, it looks like by their postures that they were relying upon O'Sensei to support their weight. He didn't really throw them in this video; he moved out of the way and they fell because they had nothing supporting them.

Could anyone do that? Probably very few can. I know I certainly can't. But from doing yoga headstands, I know the body, if aligned properly, can transmit incredible forces through it without really being affected by them.

I'm content to think of O'Sensei as an extraordinary man who's mastery of these body skills was bordering on the supernatural, but I also think that the skills themselves were not magical. The way you can say a genius concert pianist who just improvised a moving piece seemingly out of thin air is divinely inspired, but the playing of piano itself is just another amazing thing that humans do.

GeneC

12-16-2008, 08:10 AM

Well, that's not exactly the vid I's talking about( I provided the vids I's talking about), but I am talking about those techniques he did. I hesitate to trivialize his feats (nor that of a prodigy pianist). While the students may have been pushing more down while he was stitting( I agree, you or I couldn't do it ), they weren't when pushing on the ken. Afa, the prodigy piano player playing a improvised heavenly piece, I believe it IS Divine intervention. Playing a piano isn't that big of a deal to someone who's been playing for a long time( I've been playing guitar for about 35yrs now), yet it still holds them in awe to hear/see a true genius inspired piece, for they know it comes from a supernatural place. And that's what I'm talking about here, is tapping into that higher power and channeling it thru your own body, allowing you to do "super human" feats. The "energy" is real and the manifestation is real, imo.

Erick Mead

12-16-2008, 08:10 AM

So, with that 'quantum' knowledge, how do you explain how Osensei was able to resist those four and then toss them back with such force?
Nope, entirely classical, I am afraid. Been there; done that:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=163163&postcount=371

Short answer, they knocked themselves over when he removed his support -- he never locked the hinges in his own structure and so he could collapse it or "snap" it like a whip or a towel -- and them -- at any time once they tried to push on him. The Jo trick ( also discussed in that post) is related -- by keeping extension (or retraction) along the perpendicular to their line of push equal to their extension, the pushers are made to conflict with themselves and with one another, negating their own effort. It is just kokyunage with a longarm.

And for added spice, the chest push and thigh push examples of similar demonstrations:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=154885&postcount=78
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=154966&postcount=96

Regrettably, the video links seem to have been expired, but the head push discussed is another example of the one already linked here. But, apart from rebutting those examples and showing they are not esoteric mystical energies, vice trained uses of good mechanics -- we are veering off the topic.

GeneC

12-16-2008, 08:20 AM

I think we're just different travelers, all looking at the same Mount Aiki from different angles.

... Very, very likely.

Funny, all that Quantum Physics led ya'll right around in a circle back to this profound observation. Welcome back!

So can we all agree there's this energy flowing throughout the Universe and it's all around us and we can tap in to it and have it flow thru us and out into an explosive movement?

Adman

12-16-2008, 09:25 AM

So can we all agree there's this energy flowing throughout the Universe and it's all around us and we can tap in to it and have it flow thru us and out into an explosive movement?

I'll let Sy and Erick give you their response to that (hopefully, in ten words or less ;) ).

As for me, I'm going to say, "no".

Demetrio Cereijo

12-16-2008, 11:36 AM

As for me, I'm going to say, "no".
I find your lack of faith disturbing ...
:D :D :D

C. David Henderson

12-16-2008, 11:54 AM

Distrubances in faith, if not the force, good may be.

Adman

12-16-2008, 02:22 PM

I find your lack of faith disturbing ...
:D :D :D

Touché (I think ...)

;)

Erick Mead

12-16-2008, 03:55 PM

So can we all agree there's this energy flowing throughout the Universe and it's all around us and we can tap in to it and have it flow thru us and out into an explosive movement?Yeah, but you don't need aikido for that -- TNT works just fine ... I wouldn't want have it flow through me, though. I ain't never seen that kind of constipation --- and never hope to ...

Sy Labthavikul

12-16-2008, 04:36 PM

Funny, all that Quantum Physics led ya'll right around in a circle back to this profound observation. Welcome back!

Hehe, I don't think we mentioned any quantum physics once during this discussion. If we did, my head would hurt.

[QUOTE]So can we all agree there's this energy flowing throughout the Universe and it's all around us and we can tap in to it and have it flow thru us and out into an explosive movement?/QUOTE]

Yup, wholeheartedly. Without energy, well... nothing would happen at all. Ever.

GeneC

12-16-2008, 09:58 PM

Well, good luck on your journey up Mt Aiki, see y'all up there. Hope there's enough energy.

GeneC

12-17-2008, 08:24 AM

Wait ,hold the press, I found this (funny noone mentioned this) :

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14903&highlight=kami

Now, on that thread, most everyone is saying just about the same as I said in my first post, but somehow this turned out very different. So what's the difference( besides the fact that over there, y'all're thinking and talking in Japanese and I talk in American)?

Erick Mead

12-17-2008, 02:34 PM

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14903&highlight=kami

Now, on that thread, most everyone is saying just about the same as I said in my first post, but somehow this turned out very different. So what's the difference( besides the fact that over there, y'all're thinking and talking in Japanese and I talk in American)?

This is worth considering in that regard and helps tie in what I contemplate in my perspective with the more spiritua, less physical approaches ot the issue of Ki:
KI is primal causer…everything is started by KI. The Great Universe is started by KI. Your mood, decisions and actions are initiated by Ki. Of course negative Ki exists but we can purify ourselves to sense Ki and to receive positive KiIn this statement, I can find agreement from several purely Western perspectives. "First Cause" is an ancient formula, in both Greek physics and metaphysics, and latterly in theology of the Christian era. Biblically, it connects to the concept of kokyu in Genesis. The Ruah (wind or breath) of God moved on the waters of chaos, creating light and dividing light from darkness, into day and night, in continuous alteration. Kokyu - and in-yo ho -- oscillation from positive to negative where the positive is, in fact, the only real thing that exists or is gained, and the negative is merely its absence or departure.

Everything that exists, exists in an oscillatory dynamic. Mass is a set of standing waves in static oscillation; energy is those waves unbound to fare across the universe. Both may be understood, quite literally, as the reverberations of the first and mightiest clap that was Creation. Think about that when you salute the Kamidana. Yama-biko.

There is very much in Shinto and in O Sensei's understanding of Shinto that is proto-evangelical from a Christian perspective -- the degree and correspondence of of which is a constant source of fascination and speculation.

Erick Mead

12-17-2008, 03:01 PM

Like I said: a constant source of fascination and speculation:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/12/14/when_jesus_met_buddha/

GeneC

12-17-2008, 06:58 PM

This is worth considering in that regard and helps tie in what I contemplate in my perspective with the more spiritua, less physical approaches ot the issue of Ki:Rev. Koichi Barrish wrote:
KI is primal causer¡¦verything is started by KI. The Great Universe is started by KI. Your mood, decisions and actions are initiated by Ki. Of course negative Ki exists but we can purify ourselves to sense Ki and to receive positive Ki
In this statement, I can find agreement from several purely Western perspectives. "

OK, so, let me make sure I'm undersatnding what's meant So , first he's saying Ki is God and God initiates our mood, decisions and actions, but negative Ki (i.e., a negative God or Satan?) exists, but can be purified. Sorry, I just can't buy into that. So, Ki gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life? Nope, that just doesn't work for me, besides brain synapsis and electrical impulses are what intiates mood, decisions and action.

Everything that exists, exists in an oscillatory dynamic. Mass is a set of standing waves in static oscillation; energy is those waves unbound to fare across the universe....

That's what I said in my first post (using different words) and I believe we can channel that energy thru our bodies.

C. David Henderson

12-18-2008, 10:43 AM

I would find it remarkable if the beliefs of a Shinto priest DID articulate with Christian theology without leaving any daylight between the two.

But aren't we talking about concepts developed in non-Christian civilizations? Isn't it important what people who hold those beliefs understand those concepts to be?

(By the way, as Erick points out, "'First Cause' is an ancient formula, in both Greek physics and metaphysics, and latterly in theology of the Christian era." The Neo-Platonists had an idea of the divine as well as "First Cause." Their beliefs influenced the development of Christian theology, but their idea of the divine was not the same as that of modern Christians any more than followers of Shinto.)

To me, it is the recurrence of breath as a concept and set of ritual practices in different religions and culutures that stansd out.

Respiration is the model/physical manifestation of espiritu in many cultures. We say "bless you" after a sneeze, for example. And breathing practices are often part of rituals used in those cultures to bridge from the mundane to the sacred (as those cultures understand them).

I strongly suspect Gregorian chants (sung en masse in the early morning cold on a starvation diet) would give one quite a buzz too after a few hours.

Set aside, just for the sake of this discussion, our likely different beliefs about "true" religious understanding.

The question would remain why, in many different societies at many different times, the idea of breath is a symbol of spirit, and people use breathing techniques to try to touch the divine.

That, to me, that phenomenon is relevant to a discussion of Ki.

C. David Henderson

12-18-2008, 10:54 AM

By the way,

Compare, please,

http://www.merriam-webster.com/spanish/espiritu

Main Entry: espíritu
Function: masculine noun
Language: Spanish
1 : spirit
2 ánimo : state of mind, spirits plural
3 el Espíritu Santo : the Holy Ghost

with

Rev. Koichi Barrish wrote:
KI is primal causer…everything is started by KI. The Great Universe is started by KI. Your mood, decisions and actions are initiated by Ki.

Parallels?

Erick Mead

12-18-2008, 12:21 PM

OK, so, let me make sure I'm undersatnding what's meant So , first he's saying Ki is God and God initiates our mood, decisions and actions, but negative Ki (i.e., a negative God or Satan?) exists, but can be purified.In Genesis, to be exact, when God created the universe, the Ruah or Breath of God moved as the First Cause. That is very plainly related to the concept of Ki. God in his Person, in both Jewish and Christian understanding is beyond cause or no-cause.

Sorry, I just can't buy into that. So, Ki gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life? Nope, that just doesn't work for me, besides brain synapsis and electrical impulses are what intiates mood, decisions and action. Well: O Sensei said this: "Kirisuto ga ‘hajime ni kotoba ariki' to itta sono kotodama ga SU de arimasu. Sore ga kotodama no hajimari de aru." (‘In the beginning was the Word', spoken by Christ is this kotodama SU. This is the origin of kotodama.) This quote is taken from the Takemusu Aiki lectures and the Japanese is given by Prof. Goldsbury. Kotodama (lit.= "Word-spirit") is, plain as day, related to the Divine Logos, which has the deepest possible roots into Western Theology. Moreover, O Sensei even takes pains in way so as not to identify the kotodama SU directly with the Divine Logos but as proceeding from Him. You may take it how you wish, but that is what he said and the distinction that he made. .

Kotodama is the vocalization (intentionality) of kokyu, which arises from the cycle of Ki.

That's what I said in my first post (using different words) and I believe we can channel that energy thru our bodies.You already are, just not terribly well, yet.

C. David Henderson

12-18-2008, 12:26 PM

This book looks interesting, and the author familiar...

Life Energy Encyclopedia: Qi, Prana, Spirit, and Other Life Forces around the World (Paperback)
by Stefan Stenudd (Author)

GeneC

12-18-2008, 02:53 PM

I That, to me, that phenomenon is relevant to a discussion of Ki.

Relevant to breathing, yes( see m sig), saying Ki is God, no.

Btw, we say "bless you" when someone sneezes because the Germans thought your heart stopped, but that's not really true either.

GeneC

12-18-2008, 02:59 PM

That's what I said in my first post (using different words) and I believe we can channel that energy thru our bodies.

You already are, just not terribly well, yet.

Exactly

GeneC

12-18-2008, 03:02 PM

This book looks interesting, and the author familiar...

Life Energy Encyclopedia: Qi, Prana, Spirit, and Other Life Forces around the World (Paperback)
by Stefan Stenudd (Author)

Just ordered his books ( That and "Attacks in Aikido:How to do the Kogeki, the Attack Techniques"). Should be here any day. Plus I'm studying T'ai Ch'i, and the T'ai Ch'i Sifu has her own ideas about Ch'i (which is what I lean to)(see my sig, that's Lao Tsu and Tao Te Ching).

C. David Henderson

12-18-2008, 06:10 PM

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts after you read the book and have a chance to digest the information.

Carsten Möllering

12-19-2008, 01:35 AM

Btw, we say "bless you" when someone sneezes because the Germans thought your heart stopped.In German we don't say "bless you".
The traditional term is to wish "good health".

Carsten

eyrie

12-19-2008, 03:23 AM

Gesundheit!

GeneC

12-19-2008, 01:34 PM

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts after you read the book and have a chance to digest the information.

You mean other than that Ki is where we channel the energy of the Universe through our own bodies?

Erick Mead

12-19-2008, 01:43 PM

...channel the energy of the Universe ? When you have a way of telling us what You mean by that phrase we can better help your inquiry. When three or four people have said things from different perspectives about their understandings of it, (which is fine), your response seems to be "that's what I meant." That does not really engage the points they made at all, but rather seems merely a substitute of the same jargon for different ways of thinking about these problems. We have lots of jargon here, but we also have fair amounts of thinking that lie behind many of the people who have responded to you. You could do well to take better advantage of their thinking than by sticking to the jargon.
:)

GeneC

12-19-2008, 09:16 PM

Ok, I say:"There's a huge spectrum of energy flowing thru the universe, that makes all things exist, from the entire expanding Universe, to holding revolving Galaxies together, to revolving solar systems to rotating planets, to revolving atoms, all things we know of are in it: sound- ultra sound to microwaves, X rays, Gamma rays, etc, color, light, electricity, magnetism , electro-magnetism, etc. The energy we call spiritual is part of that spectrum. The Japanese call it Ki the Chinese call it Ch'i. We just mostly call it a higher power( unless we use another cultures word).. Now, saying that a Deity MADE all this happen and controls all this and then certain things happened according to human writings- that's religion."

To that someone said Ki was "intention", to which I feel it's more than that.

Then you said: "It is not THAT obscure. The modern usage of "ki" in the terms that Japanese martial arts presently refer to it, can be understood from Miura Baien's writings (18th cen.) where he developed the idea in terms quasi-physical, with relics of the mystical, that we are familiar with."

Then someone said:"The Japanese - English dictionary translates µ¤
(1) spirit; mind; heart
(2) nature; disposition
(3) motivation; intention
(4) mood; feelings
(5) atmosphere, essence"

Then someone else quoted this from another thread: "In aikido we often use the word 'ki', or energy, but this word covers a variety of meanings. "Ki" as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, center line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the highest state of perfect balance. It might be said that 'ki' is the 'mastery of balance'."

Then Stephan Stenudd said this: "I wrote a book about life force ideas around the world, and found that they can be sorted into categories. One of those categories is air based life force ideas, such as qi, ki, prana, spirit, ruach, and so on.These concepts have great similarities, so I dare say that they have more to do with common human traits and circumstances than with cultural differences."

Then someone said this: " Mike:In the "chinese understanding of ki", there are distinguished so many different types of ki, eachone having a name of its own.I never experienced or read that concerning the "japanese understanding". Am I wrong?How do you distinguish ki and kokyu e.g. when you breaht in through your feet and out through your eyes? What is ki, what is kokyu?"

Then someone said: "Well I worked about the relationship of qi, ki and the christian "Holy Ghost" ."

The you used a whole bunch of words to say:"Ki, considered in physical terms as angular momentum, is a quantity, albeit a relative quantity because it depends entirely on choice of center"

Then someone said: "Well, there are different aspects of ki, but the basic, fundamental ki is the same in both Japanese and Chinese understanding. The original idea that strength, health, etc., is a function of something called "ki" or "qi" is the basis of the theory which is used in both China and Japan. "

The I said: "Didn't say it had anythng to do with other energies, just that it's in the same spectrum, but then this begs the questions: Can you create KI? Can you destroy it? or just channel (transfer) it? This is the definition of energy "

Then this was said: "Erick Mead wrote:
Ki, considered in physical terms as angular momentum, .... "

Mike Sigman wrote:"Hard to make them needles in acupuncture work if they're trying to work with angular momentum. Of course, I guess you do twirl the needles when you insert them..... I hear one bid of electromagnetic energy, one bid of angular momentum.... do we have any further bids????"

Then you said:"Electromagnetic energy IS NOT different from angular momentum. Photons have zero mass but still have momentum. The reason is that the conventional formula for momentum (p) is p= mv, mass times velocity, but is only an approximation of the relativistic definition which is p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]. This is simply an algebraic conversion of the familiar E=mc^2 into terms of momentum. "

Then someone responded: "Ah jeez. So many dichotomies, so little time; each dichotomy proving itself to be "exactly" what the Chinese were talking about. "

Then Stefan Stenudd said:" There's certainly not any primordial knowledge of Einstein's relativity behind the emergence of the ideas of qi. What was the start of it, though, is very hard to know for sure.My guess is that it began with speculations about the difference between life and death, and the observations that breath was a decisive factor - those breathing were alive, those not were dead.I allow myself to compare with many similar concepts across the globe, which seem also to have began with speculations about what life is, and what is essential for it."

The someone quoted the "Manual of Acupuncture"

Then someone said: "That's kind of neat, like a self-winding watch! "

Then you said: "Yes. And "energy" began as "vital essence"

The someone said: "When I first learned about myofascial therapies, "

The I said: "I have never heard of Ki used to describe disposition, intention or mood. Power , spirit, energy, yes"

Then I said: "I believe it has to do with drawing from the energy in the Universe and channeling it out thru your body in a particularly explosive movement."

Then Someone said: " I don't do Ki-Aikido. But I was told that "intention" is the metaphor used in Ki-Aikido in Europe."

To which someone replied: "Hmm. I haven't practised with the Ki Aikido fellows either...I guess I think of intention as the direction of ki projection rather than ki itself"

The someone said: "Having no real expert knowledge of qi/ki in the sense that it was used historically by the Chinese and Japanese, but being an avid lover of intellectualizing any kind of body movement into the realm of physics and kinesiology (i.e., I'm also a math/science kind of guy), I've also tended to define ki in a similar way, as a vector of intention and focus and also the full capabilities of an entire human body moving mechanically efficiently."

Then Stefan Stenudd said:" I certainly agree with you that nobody knows for sure."

The you used alot of words to say: "It is not a new observation, by any means. Dealing with Ki in terms of intent, illustrates the importance of angular momentum as the basis for physical conventions most closely fitting the problem. "

Then you used a whole bunch of more words that didn'tmake a whole lot of sense.

Then you talk about quantum gravity (and I still don't know what that has to do with KI)

then this was said:"I think we're just different travelers, all looking at the same Mount Aiki from different angles"

The we end up with this: "Clarence Couch wrote:
That's what I said in my first post (using different words) and I believe we can channel that energy thru our bodies.

Erick Mead wrote:"You already are, just not terribly well, yet."

So, as many folks said as many things about Ki, so what are you talking about? Listen to whom?

C. David Henderson

12-20-2008, 07:46 AM

Diane Stevenson

12-20-2008, 09:51 AM

Thank you Eric, for your investment in that post.

You've given me a lot to think about; a great meditation for advent.

GeneC

12-20-2008, 10:25 AM

Wow,

That's a, what'a ya' call it, "a whole bunch of words" for "I wasn't really listening." When you do read the books you ordered, there in the privacy of your thoughts, I had hoped some "evolvement" of your point of view might take place. That would have interested me in hearing what you had to say.Foolish stray thought, I know.
Yep, its just a big ol' pool of engergy sitt'n right there. Spigot anyone? Oh, that's the point. How do we tap in? I guess we just clinch our ol' fist as hard as we can and reach back and swing from here to the coast. Or we study from those who know what they're doing.Nah, what am I thinking.

Dave, I was listening, but I just don't understand all that " p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]. This is simply an algebraic conversion of the familiar E=mc^2 into terms of momentum. " I don't know about the "Manual of Acutpuncture", altho I have taken Acupuncture and studied it and practiced Shiatsu, so I understand the basic principles of it. I don't know about "mayofacial therapy" and I don't know about "Quantum gravity". Maybe you do, but that doesn't matter, 'cause you chose to get on here and be sarcastic and instead of contributing to this thread, take away the integrity. Study from those who know what they're doing? You mean folks like you? No thanks, I'll pass.

But anyway...
Channel:1): a path along which information (as data or music) in the form of an electrical signal passes (2)plural : a fixed or official course of communication <went through established military channels with his grievances> e: a way, course, or direction of thought or action <new channels of exploration>

The same idea as a paranormal medium will channel a spirit thru their body, so that it 'speaks' or otherwise communicates thru that medium. More specifically, in martial arts, is Bruce Lee's "1 inch punch" or Osensei's claim that he could throw folks without touching them. Not to mention the superhuman feats of strength they could do.

Demetrio Cereijo

12-20-2008, 08:40 PM

The same idea as a paranormal medium will channel a spirit thru their body, so that it 'speaks' or otherwise communicates thru that medium.
Stercore tauri.

Erick Mead

12-22-2008, 09:19 AM

Dave, I was listening, but I just don't understand all that " p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]. This is simply an algebraic conversion of the familiar E=mc^2 into terms of momentum. " ... The point being: Hamlet, Act I, Scene v. " And therefore, as a stranger give it welcome ..."

C. David Henderson

12-22-2008, 10:18 AM

Gene,

By the way,

No, I didn't mean me.

The fact that you don't have any idea -- you don't, do you - of who I do mean you should learn from shows the depths of what you don't know. You do realize that, don't you?

I hope you do learn. I realize that nothing I have learned during my time here on Earth is of any value to you. It's okay. I still hope you learn.

I did mean it when I told you goodbye on the other thread though. Peace to you and all your relations. Ta'kashlika.

GeneC

12-22-2008, 02:06 PM

Gene, I did mean it when I told you goodbye on the other thread though. Peace to you and all your relations. Ta'kashlika.

Well, goodbye then...

GeneC

12-22-2008, 02:27 PM

The point being: Hamlet, Act I, Scene v. " And therefore, as a stranger give it welcome ..."

Once again, you manage to come up with something that makes no sense and applies to nothing on topic.

Hamlet's making his co-horts swear they haven't seen or heard a conversation he had with a ghost. Uh-huh......

"Ay, that incestuous, that adulterate beast,
With witchcraft of his wit, with traitorous gifts..."

Erick Mead

12-22-2008, 02:56 PM

Once again, you manage to come up with something that makes no sense and applies to nothing on topic.

Hamlet's making his co-horts swear they haven't seen or heard a conversation he had with a ghost. Uh-huh......

"Ay, that incestuous, that adulterate beast,
With witchcraft of his wit, with traitorous gifts..."

Hm. Not nearly THAT obscure:
HORATIO:
O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!

HAMLET:
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
But come!

Sy Labthavikul

12-22-2008, 06:46 PM

I think we've gotten way off topic now.

GeneC

12-22-2008, 07:51 PM

I think we've gotten way off topic now.

Sorry, you're right, so what 're your thoughts on Ki in relation to energy?

GeneC

12-25-2008, 08:46 PM

GeneC

12-25-2008, 09:05 PM

I found this in my research- http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

An interview with Koichi Tohei (&son):"I studied Aikido from Morihei Ueshiba.... Ueshiba Sensei was a master of Ki, as well as the founder of Aikido.:..He would tell us that we should become one with the Ki of Heaven...Of course Ki principles can apply to any martial art, even to sports, dancing, or other forms of exercise....Ki is a Japanese word describing the natural energy of the universe." This is what I've been saying.

eyrie

12-26-2008, 07:37 PM

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what this nebulous concept of "Ki of Heaven" is and what this equally nebulous concept of "natural energy of the universe" means in real physical terms?

GeneC

12-27-2008, 06:18 PM

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what this nebulous concept of "Ki of Heaven" is and what this equally nebulous concept of "natural energy of the universe" means in real physical terms?

Well I'm not sure what Chiba Sensei meant when he said that, maybe you should ask him.
But for me, look at the first post of this thread:

There's a huge spectrum of energy flowing thru the universe, that makes all things exist, from the entire expanding Universe, to holding revolving Galaxies together, to revolving solar systems to rotating planets, to revolving atoms, all things we know of are in it: sound- ultra sound to microwaves, X rays, Gamma rays, etc, color, light, electricity, magnetism , electro-magnetism, etc. The energy we call spiritual is part of that spectrum. The Japanese call it Ki the Chinese call it Ch'i. We just mostly call it a higher power( unless we use another cultures word).. Now, saying that a Deity MADE all this happen and controls all this and then certain things happened according to human writings- that's religion

eyrie

12-27-2008, 06:53 PM

But in post #113, you say "This is what I've been saying". So if you are agreeing with Tohei's quote, then you must at some level understand what this "Ki of Heaven" is... or what this "natural energy of the universe" is?

GeneC

12-28-2008, 09:28 AM

GeneC

12-28-2008, 11:15 AM

Voitokas

12-28-2008, 03:19 PM

Ok (since the avenue for free flow of ideas is in disrepair) I'll indulge you. I'm referring to the energy that caused the "Big Bang", the energy that keeps Galaxies, solar systems, molecules and all living things intact. The energy that causes a newborn baby to take its first breath. The energy that keep our hearts beating. The energy that produces sound, light, heat electricity, etc. All of the above.So, you mean just "energy" period; all energy that exists anywhere. Were you saying in your original post that ki, like light or the energy of a chemical bond, is just a kind of energy, or were saying that making distinctions between different kinds of energies may be unnecessary?

GeneC

12-28-2008, 04:39 PM

So, you mean just "energy" period; all energy that exists anywhere. Were you saying in your original post that ki, like light or the energy of a chemical bond, is just a kind of energy, or were saying that making distinctions between different kinds of energies may be unnecessary?

I used too many words (in order to make sure there was no room for misunderstanding what I was saying, but what good that did- no offense) to say that all energy present in the Universe is in the same spectrum and Ki is included in that spectrum. To you, I mean(t) both(except the only distinction is negative/positive). I've discovered since my first post that huge emotion is pure energy flowing thru the body, so expressing extreme emotion is expressing Ki and if it's anger, etc, it's negative Ki and if it's joy, spirit, etc it's positive.

GeneC

12-28-2008, 05:17 PM

This is significant to me, because all my life I've been 'intense'. Some'd say I wear my heart on my sleeve. So much so, at 49 (1 month ago) I found myself in ER for chest pains. Alot of it was because of my personality. Docs told me to become someone else, or else. Right here, I learned that I couldn't be someone else, but I could 'channel' that energy in a positive way. Turns out I've had Ki flowing thru me practically all the time and didn't know it, 'til now. Now I know what it is and now I have to learn to control it.That's why my Guardian Angel led me to Aikido.

Voitokas

12-28-2008, 07:33 PM

That's an interesting take on it. I used to get very angry, too, when I was younger - the way that I worked on it was to imagine myself physically bigger than any situation (the image I used was the ocean), and I found that, with practise, it really set me outside of things. So much so, in fact, that I grew to have a strange sense of being vaguely outside of time, which was uncomfortable. The anger didn't have to be channeled then (in my case anyway) because it was never provoked. I think that I had gone too far to that pole, actually - over a few years several people who were very close to me said that I seemed cold and emotionless (some meant it as a compliment, some not so much)! Then I worked on focussing back in and being more present. I think that I've reached a happy medium now, emotionally. I get angry enough to feel human, but not so much that it's unhealthy or infringes on other people's paths.

I started aikido at the same time that I working on being less cold and more present, and I hadn't really thought of ki as being emotion. Although I have to say also that it was several years before I began to feel what I thought might be ki in aikido, and even now it's not something I can summon up or control much, especially for long periods of time. It's more like something I can feel happening, usually in waves or flashes, almost always with techniques that I know very well and almost always only in one part of a technique, even.

It's hard to describe, so bear with me, GeneC, as I do my best:

I most feel what I call "ki" when my consciousness is stretched between being outside of the situation enough that I can blend with uke or nage without changing myself, yet present enough to create an arc of tension where I want it. You know how electricity works? Energy is gathered up on one side of a circuit, and this gathering-up is a tension. The universe just wants to relax, and when the circuit is grounded, the energy that was gathered up is allowed to relax and disperse. You construct a circuit that forces the relaxing energy to pass through an imperfect conductor like the filament of a light bulb, and some of the energy is spent creating heat/light - you've built the path, and the electricity goes where you want it to. When I "feel ki happening", it's like my "outsideness" or "oceanness" is both the source and ground of energy, and my presence and focus is what lets me arc that energy in whatever shape I want. I can't do it very well, or even often! But I can feel it when it does happen, and it feels like the most powerful thing. Is this ki? I don't know - but I'm also pretty much a novice relative to most of the people that write here.

There's another thing that I feel sometimes that I think of as "kokyu", and while the happy clarity and recognition is similar, this thing is not the same as what I think of as "ki". Sometimes, mostly when I am doing something over and over, I'll feel like I'm falling into the "true" pattern of the technique, or the platonic ideal of the technique, the spirit of it, whatever. It feels like being in tune. When I feel like me and my partners are both part of this true-feeling pattern, then it feels like singing in harmony (I don't know if you know what that's like, but that's just how it feels). I call that "kokyu". Again, it's elusive, and I can't "make" it come (yet), but I can feel it when it happens.

I don't know if this informs your search or your training at all. I know that, for myself, it gives me an idea of what I'm working toward (slowly..<sigh>..) and some (subjective) criteria that allow me to reflect on how well I'm doing.

Happy new year! :)

GeneC

12-29-2008, 09:54 AM

OH yes, I can relate to what you're saying ( I've been playing Guitar since I's 10 yrs old). I know about musical harmony and like the way you liken Kokyu to it. Most call that 'breath', but I like to think of Kokyu more as a state of compatibility, as well. I'm just beginning to explore this.
To me, Ki is a momentary intstantaneous occurance at the point of physical exertion. This'd explain how a small, frail mother lifts a car off her child. A moment of great emotion( fear, panic, anger) when equally great energy is flowing freely thru her body.
Also, maybe that's why we're taught to lower our hips and feel the weight underneath, to be 'grounded' .

What I find fascinating is how one can be totally relaxed and express Ki at the same time.

Happy New Years to you !

Upyu

12-29-2008, 09:20 PM

Ok (since the avenue for free flow of ideas is in disrepair) I'll indiulge you. I'm referring to the energy that caused the "Big Bang", the energy that keeps Galaxies, solar systems, molecules and all living things intact. The energy that causes a newborn baby to take it's first breath. The energy that keep our hearts beating. The energy that produces sound, light, heat electricity, etc. All of the above.

Wow...and the jokes keep on rolling in. :D

Clarence,
Check out the "Baseline Skillset" thread and you'll know where eyrie is coming from.

Hint: Ki of Heaven he's referring to is a physical thing ;)

GeneC

12-29-2008, 10:01 PM

I'm referring to the energy that caused the "Big Bang", the energy that keeps Galaxies, solar systems, molecules and all living things intact. The energy that causes a newborn baby to take it's first breath. The energy that keep our hearts beating. The energy that produces sound, light, heat electricity, etc. All of the above.

Wow...and the jokes keep on rolling in. :D

Clarence,
Check out the "Baseline Skillset" thread and you'll know where eyrie is coming from.

Hint: Ki of Heaven he's referring to is a physical thing ;)

Notice I didn't say anything about "Ki of heaven"in my response.

jennifer paige smith

12-29-2008, 10:43 PM

I agree that Ki is instantaneous,binding, constant, and physical.

eyrie

12-30-2008, 03:56 AM

Ok (since the avenue for free flow of ideas is in disrepair) I'll indiulge you. I'm referring to the energy that caused the "Big Bang", the energy that keeps Galaxies, solar systems, molecules and all living things intact. The energy that causes a newborn baby to take it's first breath. The energy that keep our hearts beating. The energy that produces sound, light, heat electricity, etc. All of the above. Even if all of these forms of energy, can be vaguely lumped together, at an abstract metaphysical level, as the collective phenomena of "ki", and in a colloquial sense, I still think you're way off base. Unless you can somehow physically convert body heat and sound energy into *real* actual force, throw electrified ki-balls (a'la DBZ), or shoot lightning bolts out your rear end, I think you're wrong. :)

Budd

12-30-2008, 08:28 AM

Yeah I'm of two minds discussing this here . .because the "spiritual" side of this debate generally seems to come down to a matter of belief or faith (hence this vibe of . . "well I think ki is THIS", rather than . .here's concretely how I train to express/work with it). Which, yeah, everyone's entitled to an opinion . . but I do find it humorous that some rather concrete pointers were offered early on . . and were ignored/brushed aside . . which is probably another reason why these things are best discussed in the Non-Aikido forum *sigh*

But it also points back to that philosophical gem of not being able to teach someone that already knows something ;)

In addition to the Baseline Skillset thread (which takes some patience to sort through), I'd also recommend the following for some discussion on two of Ueshiba's direct students who are pretty acknowledged to have "gotten it" with regard to ki skills.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7930

Then there's always the radical idea of getting out to train with the different people that openly proclaim to be emphasizing "ki-kokyu" as a physical method of training . .and seeing what all the fuss is about.

But I may be off-topic at this point as I don't think any of these aspects of ki-kokyu training are particularly "spiritual" other than as a means of self-cultivation (which may be spiritual to some, but to me is kinda the whole point of budo - fighing and self-defense are other things, which I have an interest in as well - and there's overlap for sure . .but they aren't the same things).

YMMV

GeneC

12-30-2008, 01:15 PM

I agree that Ki is instantaneous,binding, constant, and physical.

Jen, I really like the way you think!

GeneC

12-30-2008, 04:07 PM

Even if all of these forms of energy, can be vaguely lumped together, at an abstract metaphysical level, as the collective phenomena of "ki", and in a colloquial sense, I still think you're way off base. Unless you can somehow physically convert body heat and sound energy into *real* actual force, throw electrified ki-balls (a'la DBZ), or shoot lightning bolts out your rear end, I think you're wrong. :)

But they're not "lumped together", they're on a "linear frequency" and God has a big radio knob and He turns it at random ( or maybe not) and "tunes in " at His will and does His will.

GeneC

12-30-2008, 04:11 PM

Yeah I'm of two minds discussing this here . .because the "spiritual" side of this debate generally seems to come down to a matter of belief or faith ....

I'm wondering why there was anything said after this......so, as best you can, tell me the difference (or exact likeness of the two) between the two.

Upyu

12-30-2008, 06:22 PM

To me, Ki is a momentary intstantaneous occurance at the point of physical exertion.

And herein lies the problem I guess...
There's a lot of "well to me Ki means this" or "kokyu means <insert non-sensical expression>."

And actually your following statement simply clarifies the fact that you're confusing the physical skills with the religious aspect.

This'd explain how a small, frail mother lifts a car off her child. A moment of great emotion( fear, panic, anger) when equally great energy is flowing freely thru her body.
Also, maybe that's why we're taught to lower our hips and feel the weight underneath, to be 'grounded' .

Lowering your hips and getting weight underside has nothing to do with the frail mother lifting a car.

a) You're supposed to get your weight "underside" without moving your hips at all. That part was simply a reference to shifting your load bearing capabilities to the feet/crotch area.
(Any takers for Tohei's remark about being able to do these things normally after waking up from waaay too much boozing, and despite Ueshiba's admononitions that he was "tainted"? :D )

b) Mother and kid: The nervous system generally shuts down muscles when they reach 30% of their max. Extreme duress can allow people to turn off that "safety" ... and unfortunately has nothing to do with the "weight underside" concept ;)

Budd

12-30-2008, 06:56 PM

I'm wondering why there was anything said after this......so, as best you can, tell me the difference (or exact likeness of the two) between the two.

Could it be that you aren't understanding the ki components as an actual trained physical skill? Or are you wondering on a more global scale why someone other than yourself might express an opinion?

Regarding ki as aspects of belief or faith . . I don't see much difference between the two . . both are inevitably subjected to "Well I think" or "My take is" (as Rob pointed out) and are just as likely to not have anything to do with how one actually trains to use ki skills in the physical sense.

GeneC

12-30-2008, 07:08 PM

And herein lies the problem I guess...
There's a lot of "well to me Ki means this" or "kokyu means <insert non-sensical expression>."

And actually your following statement simply clarifies the fact that you're confusing the physical skills with the religious aspect.

Lowering your hips and getting weight underside has nothing to do with the frail mother lifting a car.

a) You're supposed to get your weight "underside" without moving your hips at all. That part was simply a reference to shifting your load bearing capabilities to the feet/crotch area.
(Any takers for Tohei's remark about being able to do these things normally after waking up from waaay too much boozing, and despite Ueshiba's admononitions that he was "tainted"? :D )

b) Mother and kid: The nervous system generally shuts down muscles when they reach 30% of their max. Extreme duress can allow people to turn off that "safety" ... and unfortunately has nothing to do with the "weight underside" concept ;)

Hey Bob, why use me to further my demise to get me thrown off here ( I already have 2 stikes { for one offense} against me).

GeneC

12-30-2008, 07:10 PM

Could it be that you aren't understanding the ki components as an actual trained physical skill? Or are you wondering on a more global scale why someone other than yourself might express an opinion?

Regarding ki as aspects of belief or faith . . I don't see much difference between the two . . both are inevitably subjected to "Well I think" or "My take is" (as Rob pointed out) and are just as likely to not have anything to do with how one actually trains to use ki skills in the physical sense.

Yes, but anyone thinking all that'd have no idea about Ki ( or how to manifest it) anyway.

GeneC

12-30-2008, 07:32 PM

And herein lies the problem I guess...
There's a lot of "well to me Ki means this" or "kokyu means <insert non-sensical expression>.

And you have ALL the ( insert non-sensical expressions here) answers?

mathewjgano

12-30-2008, 08:07 PM

Hey Bob, why use me to further my demise to get me thrown off here ( I already have 2 stikes { for one offense} against me).

Gene,
I really don't think that was the intent...and really, only you have control over the nature of your ki, be it combative or flacid or whatever. I thought Rob's reply was pretty informative and addressing of the topic.
My sense of ki is that it's a concept of energy and as such it applies to all things (temperament, in the above case). Matter and energy are said to be two expressions of the same thing; then you've also got the various forms of energy: kinetic, chemical, etc. So you ask about where the spirit (i.e. ki?) of a loaf of bread is? It's in various forms in the bread and is indeed the bread itself...if I'm not mistaken.
Rob and the others who don't like the mystical language make good points though. My sense of ki, for example, is so wide open it makes it hard to pin down sometimes.
...I'd say context clues are everything.

Erick Mead

12-30-2008, 09:32 PM

Lowering your hips and getting weight underside has nothing to do with the frail mother lifting a car.
...
b) Mother and kid: The nervous system generally shuts down muscles when they reach 30% of their max. Extreme duress can allow people to turn off that "safety" ... and unfortunately has nothing to do with the "weight underside" concept ;)Yes, but the reason for that normal governor is that the limits of the muscular connection to the tendon insertion on the bones is weaker than the structural connections between the bones, weaker to the extent that muscles can literally rip themselves off the bones if not governed at forces well below those necessary to tear skeletal ligaments.

That ... and oxytocin. It is a stress hormone, but broader in effect and less damaging than adrenaline or epinephrine, which are expressed in situations of acute fear. The love hormone is expressed in situations of acute protective instinct -- it also contracts smooth myofascia, and serves as a stabilizer of the structural system and a kind of hydraulic "ratchet" for the voluntary musculature, as a force multiplier.

The same essential mechanism, with different trigger, keeps the hands clenched after long manual use, like raking, without additional muscular exertion. But if it is pulsed, like labor contractions, in the case of the "frail mother -lifting car" episodes, it ratchets the structure maximizing mechanical advantage. Not something one can easily reproduce experimentally, not ethically, anyway.

Fascinating issue. Definitely suggestive of O Sensei's perspective on Love being True Budo -- but the connections remain speculative for now -- apart from the fact that in aiki the skeletal ligaments are more important than muscular tendons in the dynamics of the art.

Voitokas

12-30-2008, 10:38 PM

... and oxytocin. It is a stress hormone, but broader in effect and less damaging than adrenaline or epinephrine, which are expressed in situations of acute fear. The love hormone is expressed in situations of acute protective instinct -- it also contracts smooth myofascia, and serves as a stabilizer of the structural system and a kind of hydraulic "ratchet" for the voluntary musculature, as a force multiplier...
....speculative for now -- apart from the fact that in aiki the skeletal ligaments are more important than muscular tendons in the dynamics of the art.Forgive my science-nerd questioning :D , but I didn't know that oxytocin was released under such circumstances or played such a role. I know that it plays some role in smooth muscle contraction in the uterus and during sexual arousal; is there more current research? Or are you thinking of the hypothalamus' neural stimulation of epinephrin and norepinephrine from the adrenal gland?

That's an interesting comment about the skeletal ligaments - I hadn't thought about that, but there's a lot to be said for it, especially in terms of proprioception and posture. Although without tendons...;)

I often wonder about the physical mechanics of ki strength and ki training, although it's usually when I'm daydreaming at work rather than on the mat - keep it coming! I work with animals a lot, and they seem to have a much better sense of how to use their bodies than we do. Of course, I sometimes run into the wall just walking down a hallway, so maybe I'm no judge!

Erick Mead

12-30-2008, 11:59 PM

Forgive my science-nerd questioning :D , but I didn't know that oxytocin was released under such circumstances or played such a role. I know that it plays some role in smooth muscle contraction in the uterus and during sexual arousal; is there more current research? Or are you thinking of the hypothalamus' neural stimulation of epinephrin and norepinephrine from the adrenal gland? http://www.fasciaresearch.de/wcb2006.pdf

What is particularly interesting about the study is that while oxytocin activates contractile responses in stablizing myofascia -- epinephrine -- the main fight/flight stress hormone, apparently does NOT. (Histamine also does, but as the inflammation hormone, this is much more expected and understandable]. Oxytocin also has an interesting positive feedback aspect; If more oxytocin is produced then even more oxytocin is stimulated in production. The adrenal complex does not do this (nor would you want it to).

Some have supposed a too over-determined role for the fascial questions in relation to certain mechanical functions or skills we relate to ki and kokyu. I think it is early days to say what role this physiological issue plays in O Sensei's concepts of Aikido,. But it is hardly coincidental that the extremes of human performance under stress are overwhelming evidenced in cases of protective response, which is mediated by oxytocin, and far less often in circumstances of fear or anger, which are driven by the epinephrine cascade.

Men who charge machine gun nests do it, not typically out of fear or despair, but out of a fierce protective love for their fellow soldiers. Volumes have been written on the nature of this love that drives military unit cohesion (and this is one reason that the introduction of certain sexual elements into that equation have been highly problematic to the military (for reasons that may be more understandable from this perspective -- because oxytocin also has competing roles outside of the immediate protective stress environemtn that distract from military effectiveness). But in the arena of violence, any mother creature, no matter how outmatched by a threat, becomes a very fierce creature when protecting her young -- this too is oxytocin in action.

"True Budo is Love" sounds a lot more practical in this light. The cautions against practice in a competitive environment, and against the counterattacking impulse may well relate to that very practical factor. Certainly the psycho-physiological stimulation of Chinkon Kishin and seeking a realization of love for all people -- which O Sesnei regularly practiced and strongly urged in his later years -- fits this paradigm very closely.

Upyu

12-31-2008, 12:44 AM

And you have ALL the ( insert non-sensical expressions here) answers?

Not all, but there's a number of people on this board that can replicate basic aspects(and more) of these skills...and once you have a rudimentary grasp on them it's easy to pinpoint who does or doesn't understand these things.

Upyu

12-31-2008, 01:03 AM

"True Budo is Love"

Take this quote as an example.
Generally when the term "love" is mentioned, it's mentioned together with the concept of "Ukeireru" or "acceptance," which in Japanese can have a dual physical and philosophical connotation.

From a physical standpoint, most of these skills involve loading forces (some say energy, I prefer forces, since that's what you're dealing with) into your body, compressing those forces within your body, and manipulating them, or releasing them as necessary.

Ex: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ (0:08 - 010, Ignore the divebunnies and emitted Ki/field stuff he does in the rest of the vid for now)

Similar mechanics going on here:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=IRyyhPUCmEE

--------------------------------------------------------
Getting back to the "mystical explanations",
unless you can load/accept forces into your body from all directions, and ground them in the lower part of the body (Ki of Heaven, Ki of Earth etc), you won't even get your foot into the door to being able to "use Ki."

Hence all the unbendable arm, standing on one leg, push against the head etc demos.

That's just an extreme general overview...but I think you can see where this is going.
If you can't explain those examples from a physical standpoint, I think it's hard to say you have a grasp on the "spiritual"/"philosophical"

aikilouis

12-31-2008, 01:54 AM

It seems that the philosophical/mystical/spiritual part of the explanation of these very concrete phenomenons originates from the need to work on sensitivity (most notably proprioperception), control of fine body movement, and developpement of unusual ways of moving.

You can't do that with a detached mind, it is a work that demands your subjective involvement.

Carsten Möllering

12-31-2008, 04:56 AM

I think, most of you know Watanabe Sensei. (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=8L0dFcnux58)

My teacher studied with him 10 years ago for a while.

He sometimes shows us some basics of how Watanabe sensei techniques works.
He never uses terms as "ki" oder "energy" or something like that, to explain how you can throw someone without touching.

It isn't necessary.

It's the same with the video of O Sensei. It Isn't mystical at all.

Carsten

C. David Henderson

12-31-2008, 06:04 AM

This discussion is becoming really interesting. I would admit, however, that what interested me most has been looking at the subject from the perspective of MA.

I have to remind myself that we can reverse engineer our steps from the insight that Ki has multiple meanings. (Religious, or magical, or medicinal, or....)

In some of those contexts, the meaning we want to assign the concept as a concrete part of our individual martial ways becomes, of course, one of "ki's" secondary meanings.

I also think Erick's point well taken when he brings up the still unknown role of more psychological or neurological factors in, for example, O'Sensei's Aikido.

Just received a book -- Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain. I haven't read it yet, but know it discusses neuroplasticity and the studies involving Buddhist monks with long histories of intense meditation.

Whatever else it's doing, spiritually, this mental discipline is leaving traces in the way the mind looks and performs physically. That's interesting too.

Regards,

DH

Budd

12-31-2008, 06:07 AM

And to add to some of the discussion - how you actually describe "ki" may be less important than how you actually train to work with it. Ueshiba spoke of spirits entering his body, while Tohei (who Ueshiba thought would fail in a particular demo, after Tohei spent a night drinking - because the spirits would find him "unclean") spoke of relaxing and keeping weight underside.

Yet, both were able to demonstrate ki skills through testing (as demo'd in part of the vids Rob linked). Simple example - you can hold your arm out and have someone push on it and without visibly tensing, leaning or bracing, have their push be received by the ground (this is just a test of the basic skills and not the end result of training, btw - not even necessarily what you'd want to do in a fight), so that they feel like they're pushing against the ground (or pushing themselves away from you, depending on where your intent is going).

You can describe this as collecting your ki and joining it with his, as having spirits inside you taking his energy, as manipulating the energy of the universe . . but the basic physical act is receiving/generating forces via pathways in your body and conveying/returning forces along those pathways. How to physically train those skills seems to be relegated to another section of the Aikiweb (Non-Aikido). So, a spiritual description (if I'm understanding where people are coming from and in the intent of this part of the forum) isn't necessarily "wrong" (vis a viz universal energy or some powerful emotion), but it seems like it needs to also include those building blocks in a physical sense (or at least an understanding of what's going on there) . .

C. David Henderson

12-31-2008, 08:36 AM

Hi Budd,

I wouldn't dispute what you're saying, at least for myself.

I've also found, though, that it's helpful to approach something like meditation as a physical activity (including the idea of intention) as well.

Two of the most useful books I've read that touches on that subject are Zen Training: Methods and Philosophy (1975), by Katsuki Sekida; and Spacious Body: Explorations in Somatic Ontology by Jeffrey Maitland,

Maitland's book is described thus: "In Spacious Body, Jeffrey Maitland brings his knowledge and personal experience of Buddhism, phenomenology, alchemy, psychoanalysis, and the bodywork system of Rolfing to bear in forging concepts adequate to an understanding of embodied experience." (The alchemy stuff is alchemy-as-metaphor for self-transformation).

Maitland, who is also a philosopher, I believe, draws on his experience as an advanced rolfer to examine his experience rolfing and being rolfed and in meditiation. He relates what rolfing does to the facia to experiences in meditation on a "phenomenological" level.

So, to me, the monk's "waza" can be examined usefully on a level not entirely different from the discussion here.

And, again, I need to remind myself that this perspective to training does not exhaust the "ontology" of the experience.

Regards,

DH

Erick Mead

12-31-2008, 08:42 AM

From a physical standpoint, most of these skills involve loading forces (some say energy, I prefer forces, since that's what you're dealing with) into your body, compressing those forces within your body, and manipulating them, or releasing them as necessary."Moments," not forces. Forces do not store (neither does kinetic energy, for that matter) but moment may be stored in structural stresses -- and instantaneously shifted in effect by a change of center -- but yes, otherwise, I see your point.

In some of those contexts, the meaning we want to assign the concept as a concrete part of our individual martial ways becomes, of course, one of "ki's" secondary meanings.

I also think Erick's point well taken when he brings up the still unknown role of more psychological or neurological factors in, for example, O'Sensei's Aikido.I take Ki as nothing other than concrete, for purposes of training. Its effects of a spiritual or other nature are the product, not the cause of that concrete practice, IMO. Of course, practice in the wrong"spirit" will impede physical progress so, to that extent, I would qualify it.

But one does not need to grasp poorly understood neuromuscular physiological tricks to explain what is done, mechanically, in Rob's videos. This is not to diminish the fine sensitivity and coordination that must exist to create the conditions to exploit the the opponents' motion so exquisitely (nod to Ludwig), but the mechanics of the application are fairly straightforward.

In this one for example [ http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=IRyyhPUCmEE ]at about 1:23 the attacker's lunge is converted on him, top to bottom, through simple rotational English. { for better viweing pause at 1:22 and then double click very quickly on the "play" bar, frame by frame, and you can stop-frame through the motion)

In the delivery phase of his lunge he is intending (simplistically) pivoting his weight forward into the target from a chosen point of support with a arc from the top of the body pivoting forward and down. Looked at in the lateral view of the video his body's angular momentum is in rotation counterclockwise. Master Sum moves forward well before he is reached, accomplishing two things, eliminating the effectiveness of the initially chosen point of pivot, and by shortening the distance at contact setting up a compressed space that can be used to create an additional moment in the attacker's body on initial contact. At initial contact, Master Sum motion is to mesh with the attacker's downward arc with his OWN downward arc (Clockwise), but half the radius (bowing at the waist) making his arc faster at the line of contact between them. Since he has more angular momentum because of the velocity difference, and is already fixed on his support, the momentum has to be balanced in the system, and it is -- by creating a wave of counter-rotational moment in the attacker's body. It is literally the same as applying English on a billiard ball, altering a meshing rotation on contact by manipulating and shifting its eccentricity.

That effectively shifts the axis of his rotation from the ground to his CG, and lifts his feet off the ground using his own (now shifted) rotational momentum to do it. His own body rotation simply continues but now no longer fixed to any point on the ground. Since there was never much direct collision of forces, the momentum of Master Sum moving forward initially is conserved also, and the attacker, having now joined with him, moves back because he has no place from which to resist that existing momentum, as his own rotation has now unhinged him from the ground. Some of his own forward momentum was also reversed by the sharp rotation of Master sum to turn it back on itself, adding to the impulse he (obviously) feels.

I see a similar thing in the the "thigh push" demo in the O Sensei video you also linked [ http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ ] -- but the part at 0:17-0:19 is no dive bunyny, it is the application of atemi to re-orient the center of uke's rotation. Soft and guiding in the example there given but atemi nonetheless, to the same effect

You can describe this as collecting your ki and joining it with his, as having spirits inside you taking his energy, as manipulating the energy of the universe . . but the basic physical act is receiving/generating forces via pathways in your body and conveying/returning forces along those pathways. How to physically train those skills seems to be relegated to another section of the Aikiweb (Non-Aikido).Moments and momentum again, not forces -- but otherwise generally I agree. Forces cannot be stored, and forces that are a right angles do not add or subtract from one another AT ALL -- but they DO add or subtract net moment or net angular momentum -- which can then impart acceleration and therefore, force. If you can get your head around thinking in terms of moment and angular momentum first and linear, planar forces second, it really does become much simpler to see some things that were quite hard for me to see before I started thinking that way.

As for the physical training, the gist of most those discussions that I came away with is that in terms of Aikido the training exists in variations of the Aiki taiso or kokyu undo (which are very much OT) and that while other systems of training similar skills or principles of action do exist (and one may debate their relative effectiveness depending on one's goals), those systems are not OT. Aiki taiso/ kokyu undo are fair game and the consensus seems that they are the Aikido vehicle for most of those training principles.

C. David Henderson

12-31-2008, 09:03 AM

"I take Ki as nothing other than concrete, for purposes of training."

Again, no arguments here.

GeneC

12-31-2008, 05:10 PM

Not all, but there's a number of people on this board that can replicate basic aspects(and more) of these skills...and once you have a rudimentary grasp on them it's easy to pinpoint who does or doesn't understand these things.

Pinpoint? Oh ,ok, I see, So, you have it and anyone who says otherwise just don't get it. Well, I think I get it and it's very simple and not mystical, etc, at all.

Upyu

12-31-2008, 05:29 PM

Pinpoint? Oh ,ok, I see, So, you have it and anyone who says otherwise just don't get it. Well, I think I get it and it's very simple and not mystical, etc, at all.

No need to get bent out of shape dude.
Remember, I said it wasn't just myself, but also a number of people on this forum. Let's try to keep personalities out of the discussion ;)

But, from your posts, to be perfectly candid...no you don't show an understanding of these things.
That's not a put-down btw...maybe it means you just have to get out there more and find someone willing to teach you.
There have been plenty of examples given on this board of people open enough to give others a kickstart into developing these skills.

GeneC

12-31-2008, 07:03 PM

Gene,
I really don't think that was the intent... So you ask about where the spirit (i.e. ki?) of a loaf of bread is? It's in various forms in the bread and is indeed the bread itself...if I'm not mistaken....

Well thanks Matt. I'll take it ( and leave it) at that. The bread?
I's thinking it's the crumbs. My wife makes her own bread and the crumbs are just as good as any other part of the bread ( Yes, I'm truly blessed, being allergic to preservatives, she makes all condiments, jams/jellies, active yogurt, fromage de cottage, sour kraut, sushi/sashimi, bread etc, from scratch).

Oh, also, speaking of chemicals, I'd think adrenaline has alot to do with it.

C. David Henderson

12-31-2008, 07:19 PM

There's a line in a Paul Simon song I like. It goes, "the strength to push life of spring."

To a gardener, what is the ki that makes two aspen trees grow together in a mutual spiral?

Is it less important that whether I can beat someone up?

I don't think so, and I don't think it's any less a valid example of ki.

FWIW

DH

GeneC

12-31-2008, 07:28 PM

No need to get bent out of shape dude..

Yes, I apologize. Maybe I mis-understood you. I'm willing to wipe the slate and start over. I've been studying MA for over 30 yrs, I'd hate to think I didn't learn the simplest concepts- Ki. I respectfully dis-agree with what you're saying. Imo, in this context, force is describing energy. Otherwise we need to talk about ergs and joules and dynes and newtons, etc.

GeneC

12-31-2008, 07:40 PM

To me, Ki is a momentary intstantaneous occurance at the point of physical exertion.

And herein lies the problem I guess...
There's a lot of "well to me Ki means this" or "kokyu means <insert non-sensical expression>."

See, I was confused by this condescening remark. I should have said "to me Ki manifests itself at this moment"

And actually your following statement simply clarifies the fact that you're confusing the physical skills with the religious aspect.

And maybe not, but just the way you perceived it, as I surely can tell the difference between the religuous aspect of a concept and the physical aspect of it. The religious aspect certainly wouldn't hurt to help to acheive the physical part of it.

Lowering your hips and getting weight underside has nothing to do with the frail mother lifting a car.

And maybe it has everything to do with it. She certainly wouldn't acheive it by standing back and extending only her arms.

The thread started out describing what Ki is, so now what are we talking about? All the varieties, how it manifests itself, the spiritual vs the physical, etc?

Kevin Leavitt

12-31-2008, 07:57 PM

Gene, yes he is in the Ki Club, he gets it, more so than most people, myself included on this board. That is just the way it is. Certainly don't expect you to take his, mine, or anyone else word for it...I certainly didn't.

I have worked with Rob briefly for a weekend and I will tell you that in a short amount of time he has picked up skills that many of us have spent a small lifetime trying to gain.

Nothing mystical about it at all. Recommend you get with some folks that are here and see what they have to offer.

Kevin Leavitt

12-31-2008, 07:58 PM

Yes, I apologize. Maybe I mis-understood you. I'm willing to wipe the slate and start over. I've been studying MA for over 30 yrs, I'd hate to think I didn't learn the simplest concepts- Ki. I respectfully dis-agree with what you're saying. Imo, in this context, force is describing energy. Otherwise we need to talk about ergs and joules and dynes and newtons, etc.

Yes, been there done that. I'd recommend doing just that...wiping the slate clean, keeping an open mind and then make your decision.

Upyu

12-31-2008, 08:37 PM

See, I was confused by this condescening remark. I should have said "to me Ki manifests itself at this moment"

And maybe it has everything to do with it. She certainly wouldn't acheive it by standing back and extending only her arms.

I rest my case.
I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record... but I'll reiterate: i
f you know how to do these skills, then you'd understand that those two quotes would immediately put you in the group that doesn't understand it.
Harsh as it sounds.

No one's lording it over you either,since there's plenty of people (or at least more than there used to be) who will show these things, and more importantly *how to do them and even more importantly *how to condition these things.

I'd hate to think I didn't learn the simplest concepts- Ki

We've been down this road before, years of practice has nothing to do with it.
If you never understood what you were supposed to be working on/conditioning you'd never get it.

GeneC

12-31-2008, 09:23 PM

Gene, yes he is in the Ki Club, .

You're kidding right? Ki club? Rhymes with glee club. So he's got the monopoly on the concept? He's been to mountain top and conversed with Osensei( who supposely has the the monopoly)? Does he meditate 3 'off the ground and walks on water? He's got Carte Blanc to be condescending to anyone else with an different opinion? Sorry, I'm not buying into it. Ki is not rocket science nor the key to the Universe. Noone's above the 'laws', right? Everyone has to play nice, right? I stand my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.

GeneC

12-31-2008, 10:12 PM

I rest my case....

Ahhh, if only that were true. The folks who perform 'super-human' feats has no idea how they did it, they just did it (right then), but yet, it's exactly the same thing as ( my concept of) Ki.

Upyu

12-31-2008, 11:00 PM

He's been to mountain top and conversed with Osensei( who supposely has the the monopoly)?

Err... Ueshiba does "not" have a monopoly on "Ki."
In fact it was his instructor Takeda Sokaku that coined the term "Ai-ki." Everyone, Chinese, Japanese, Indian etc are all talking about different approaches to a spectrum and use of skill/conditioning.

I'm not trying to be condescending Clarence, I'm just telling it how it is.

Ki is not rocket science

Sure...but if it were that simple, why would the Asians across the board value these things so highly? These skills and their usage become pretty sophisticated the deeper you go...and in a sense it is "rocket science" since it does take a fairly sharp mind to access them. Actually, I know multiple people with a fair bit of skill that have all said candidly "an idiot can't learn these skills." Leaving it up to dreaming and wishy-washy hope just won't cut it. Critical thinking and a practical understanding of physics becomes essential.

I stand my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.

That's like saying:

I stand my opinion that Gravity is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.

Anyone that's never heard of Gravity might be fooled by that statement, but once you have a practical understanding of what Gravity is and how it affects you, they'd find that statement ludicrous.

Btw, just to clarify, I'm not saying Ki = Gravity. I'm pretty sure you got that....but just to be sure :D

Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

Hey, I liked the Peaceful Warrior for what it was too...an emotional self-help movie that liked to couch "Asian" philosophy with metaphors easily digestible to "Westerners"...but it still has nothing to do with Ki dude.
It was pretty entertaining though... Strawberry Bridge FTW :)

eyrie

12-31-2008, 11:36 PM

So he's got the monopoly on the concept? He's been to mountain top and conversed with Osensei( who supposely has the the monopoly)? Does he meditate 3 'off the ground and walks on water? O'Sensei didn't have the monopoly on it... it's common to many Asian martial arts.

And are you also suggesting that levitation and walking on water are "ki" tricks? If so, then Criss Angel must be a uber ki-master too...

I stand my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Perhaps it is, in a very broad and generally non-specific sense... but the Ki of Heaven and the Ki of Earth are references to actual forces - the force due to the acceleration of weight by gravity and the equal and opposite reaction of the ground.

Coz Sensei Issac Newton sez so.... :D

mathewjgano

12-31-2008, 11:43 PM

Hey, I liked the Peaceful Warrior for what it was too...an emotional self-help movie that liked to couch "Asian" philosophy with metaphors easily digestible to "Westerners"...but it still has nothing to do with Ki dude.
It was pretty entertaining though... Strawberry Bridge FTW :)

The movie was good, but the book was better.
Rob, is it a misnomer to think of ki as applying to emotion too? Isn't ki used to commonly refer to temperament? How does the term "genki" fit in with what you're talking about? I'm not saying emotion is the skills you're describing, but just trying to better understand the terminology and you know it better than I do.

Upyu

12-31-2008, 11:58 PM

The movie was good, but the book was better.
Rob, is it a misnomer to think of ki as applying to emotion too? Isn't ki used to commonly refer to temperament? How does the term "genki" fit in with what you're talking about? I'm not saying emotion is the skills you're describing, but just trying to better understand the terminology and you know it better than I do.

Yes, I think it is a misnomer to apply the "Ki" mentioned in martial arts to emotion.
If we were to follow the example you presented, then "Genki (state of well being)," "Seiki (sexual energy)” and "Tenki(the weather)" etc would all be tied together by the same thing...which they aren't.

I think Mike S. put it best on how Ki/Qi was an overall silver bullet theory (kind of like the Super String Theory for physics in modern times, the "Humours" theory by the Greeks) to explain everything that was unexplainable... but it eventually fell apart under scrutiny.

It found its way into a myriad of different parts of languages and aspects of human life that were essentially separate from each other. (Although if someone could draw a useful parallel between Seiki and Tenki...I'll buy a years worth of Oreos just for them :D )...and that's something that needs to be recognized.

Upyu

01-01-2009, 12:01 AM

Coz Sensei Issac Newton sez so.... :D

Awww maaan.... you just had to blow the party up early ..
And here I was thinking we could have let this drag on for another 50 pages or so before someone dropped the kicker :D

eyrie

01-01-2009, 12:17 AM

Although if someone could draw a useful parallel between Seiki and Tenki...I'll buy a years worth of Oreos just for them :D It's a TCM concept that the "qi" (as a pseudo-descriptive term of some sort of "intrinsic human energy", but probably more accurate if you consider it as a euphemistic term for "general health and wellbeing"), is affected by seasonal changes (e.g. SAD). Like, when it's too hot and humid, you just don't want to do anything. When it's wet and rainy, all you want to do is stay in bed... what you do there I leave to your imagination ;)

In a TCM sense, the whole thing about emotions (or rather "moods") affecting "qi" (and vice versa), is only a small part of the TCM spectrum of health and wellbeing... and, although somewhat related, has little to do with what the "ki" we're talking about in MA terms. Would you agree?

Awww maaan.... you just had to blow the party up early ..
And here I was thinking we could have let this drag on for another 50 pages or so before someone dropped the kicker Sorry dude... it's New Years day here... give the man a break... imagine if it was you that wasted the last 30 years of your life... :D

Upyu

01-01-2009, 05:14 AM

has little to do with what the "ki" we're talking about in MA terms. Would you agree?

Agreed in spades.

Sorry dude... it's New Years day here... give the man a break... imagine if it was you that wasted the last 30 years of your life... :D
I so ...want to say something even mildly entertaining but in the interests of keeping the peace I'll take the 5th...

besides which, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining as this... (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=nxCAPMzPZ-Q)
:D

C. David Henderson

01-01-2009, 07:38 AM

Awww maaan.... you just had to blow the party up early ..
And here I was thinking we could have let this drag on for another 50 pages or so before someone dropped the kicker :D

Don't worry about that, my friend. Argument will find a way -- it's got the ki of kudzu on a Georgia summer day.

Robert, you mentioned Mike's description of "ki" as a bundle of different and somewhat loosely related concepts (my words). I agree with what I understood you to say -- this point is key to discussing ki in a martial arts context (even on a spirituality and not training thread).

Then you mentioned the bundle (my word) "fell apart" upon scrutiny. Could you clarify what you meant? Scrutiny in cultures to which the concept is native, or scrutiny by folk like us, who might have thought to find a single unifying concept in the middle of that bundle? If the former, could you say more? (Or in either case.)

Thanks for your posts, train well, and happy new year.

Regards,

David

Upyu

01-01-2009, 08:32 AM

Robert, you mentioned Mike's description of "ki" as a bundle of different and somewhat loosely related concepts (my words). I agree with what I understood you to say -- this point is key to discussing ki in a martial arts context (even on a spirituality and not training thread).

Let me clarify a bit. Mike's description of "ki" is a bundle of CLOSELY (apologies for the caps, wanted to avoid confusion) related concepts as it pertains to the martial concepts of a certain way to use the body, and a specific conditioning of the body.

The overall concept of "Qi" within the TCM paradigm, is fairly loosely related at best.
This overall concept of "Qi" fell apart upon scrutiny among some accomplished boxers even in China
I-Chuan is a good example, the founder of which, Wang, openly ridiculed the traditional explanations, rules etc (http://taijijourney.blogspot.com/2005/07/interview-with-mr-wang-xiangzhai.html) (search for "dantian qi")

Think of it along the lines of the differences discovered in an "earth centric universe" vs. "earth simply part of a larger whole universe."
Both are based upon observations, which in themselves aren't wrong persay, they (people past) just formed an incorrect theory to tie it all together.

I'm definitely not the best source of information on the overall Qi/Ki paradigm. My own interest mainly focuses on the martial aspects, but Ignatius mentioned a good example of the connections/differences a couple posts back.

C. David Henderson

01-01-2009, 08:41 AM

Robert, Thanks for your response.

The details add a lot to what you were conveying.

Also, thanks for the link.

DH

Erick Mead

01-01-2009, 10:54 AM

I think Mike S. put it best on how Ki/Qi was an overall silver bullet theory (kind of like the Super String Theory for physics in modern times, the "Humours" theory by the Greeks) to explain everything that was unexplainable... but it eventually fell apart under scrutiny.That is not exactly true. It was scrutinized according to equivalence to energy, and to force, neither of which fit. The examination went little further. Newton, for all of his immense success, was wrong about a fundamental thing -- position and velocity are not absolute -- they are relative. Berkeley's criticism of Newton turned out to be right, in determining the problem of angular momentum and inertial moment. The relative position of the observer determines both position and velocity, a point Ernst Mach and later Einstein took to the limits of our present physical understanding.

Force presumes absolute position. Energy presumes absolute velocity. Neither is exactly true - but both are approximately true for most common uses. Ignatius is correct about gravity's importance, but only as a source of a powerful frame of reference. That frame of reference may also be overcome.

Ki is a relativistic concept, and therefore closer to the actual reality, but for this reason, may often not fit with our "absolute" reference bias in preferring to use force and energy concepts. Not that there''s anything wrong with that. But reliance on a presumed absolute reference is a vulnerability if someone is exploiting a more basic truth. It doesn't require lightspeed, it merely requires a changing of center.

Traditional understanding of Ki requires both positive and negative phases -- and it cycles. Energy does not do that; force does not do that; angular momentum does.It also bridges the distinction and equivalence between energy and mass -- which is held in the distinction between light, ethereal Ki and heavy, congealed Ki .

Angular momentum is simply another physical convention that may be used to describe every motion/energy problem that force and energy equations also may be used to describe. In Western terms, in some cases it seems simpler to use that convention than to use force/energy conventions, particularly in mechanical or structural situations. But the terms of angular momentum/inertial moment are a better fit to the Chinese/Japanese concepts of Ki as they are used in a physical context, which is all I wish to address.

Once I match velocity or position (ki-musubi) with that of the attack, I alter the relative center of the action which radically alters the attacker's stability assumptions -- with his own motion. Matching position and changing center on contact is "Ki of Earth." A good example of this is suri-otoshi with the sword. Matching velocity and changing center on contact is "Ki of Heaven." A good example of this is kiri-otoshi with the sword. Use of both with the sword (ten-chi) is exemplified in suri-age. David Valadez has a a nice kumitachi video of the three in sequence. [ http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/weapons1.html ] But they are found in variations in other systems of kumitachi (and kumijo) exercises I have trained in -- notably those of Saotome and Saito. In tai jutsu there is typically much more interplay between these principles, because the interactions are always less acute. That is why sword work is helpful to aiki training because it has clearer (but much narrower) lines of action, and so the essence becomes clearer.

Erick Mead

01-01-2009, 11:09 AM

This overall concept of "Qi" fell apart upon scrutiny among some accomplished boxers even in China
I-Chuan is a good example, the founder of which, Wang, openly ridiculed the traditional explanations, rules etc (http://taijijourney.blogspot.com/2005/07/interview-with-mr-wang-xiangzhai.html) (search for "dantian qi")An excellent interview. Thanks. The relevant portion is worth posting:
As for the theory of the dantian qi, from the theoretical point of view, field tests, and my own perception from experience and observation, this theory does not seem proper. Within the abdomen there are the intestines, the stomach, and the liver, there is no place to fill with the qi. As for the functions of force, they are all effects of the opposite power, the explosive power, and the power of the universe combined, and exerted together with breath that makes the body bulge and undulate, open and close, and the body and spirit being integrated with the atmosphere in one's mind.

That has nothing to do with what the people call the qi of qigong. They always take a potbelly as dantian qi, that is just extremely wrong. One must know that when exerted, the strength must be issued evenly and completely. In order to be entirely free from worry and to gain strength, one should also be at leisure and natural, that is just being reasonable. The students of modern times do not understand this truth, they spend dozens of years working hard, and instead of gaining lively bodies and minds from the training, they become machines.I take it that Wang criticizes the "vital fluid" conception of qi, but seems to endorse the physical concept in his own terms of "undulating power."

GeneC

01-01-2009, 01:23 PM

I'm not trying to be condescending Clarence, I'm just telling it how it is.

Sorry, but that's how I perceive it. what's more important, what you meant, or how I took it?

Sure...but if it were that simple, why would the Asians across the board value these things so highly? These skills and their usage become pretty sophisticated the deeper you go...and in a sense it is "rocket science" since it does take a fairly sharp mind to access them. Actually, I know multiple people with a fair bit of skill that have all said candidly "an idiot can't learn these skills."

Well Shucks, maybe it's like Backgammon or something- easy to laern, but a liketime tomaster.

Leaving it up to dreaming and wishy-washy hope just won't cut it. Critical thinking and a practical understanding of physics becomes essential.

Well shoot fire and save the matches, if you know somebody like that here, please reveal them.

That's like saying:

[qute=GeneC] I stand by my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.[/quote]

I stand by my opinion that Gravity is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.

Anyone that's never heard of Gravity might be fooled by that statement, but once you have a practical understanding of what Gravity is and how it affects you, they'd find that statement ludicrous.

I find your (mis)perception intertaining ,but not amusing, as the latter is nothing like the former. Changing a word changes the entire concept. Anyone from 8th grade science up knows that gravity is NOT an energy (which's something that can't be created nor destroyed, only tranferred), but a byproduct of the energy spectrum in the Universe.

Hey, I liked the Peaceful Warrior for what it was too...an emotional self-help movie that liked to couch "Asian" philosophy with metaphors easily digestible to "Westerners"...but it still has nothing to do with Ki dude.
It was pretty entertaining though... Strawberry Bridge FTW :)

Well, I didn't see the movie, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express and finished the book. I found it very slow setting up the plot and Mr Millman used way too many words to say very little( altho that book created quite an income and career for him). Oh flitter sticks ( I know how you hate colloquials), I wouldn't say it had NOTHING to do with ki. Surely there's a nugget in there somewhere. Could we stop the tit-for-tat? If you have something to contribute, get on with it, please, y'all.

GeneC

01-01-2009, 01:57 PM

Yes, I think it is a misnomer to apply the "Ki" mentioned in martial arts to emotion.
If we were to follow the example you presented, then "Genki (state of well being)," "Seiki (sexual energy)" and "Tenki(the weather)" etc would all be tied together by the same thing...which they aren't.

Ok, you'll need to show me how the two are relevent

I think Mike S. put it best on how Ki/Qi was an overall silver bullet theory (kind of like the Super String Theory for physics in modern times, the "Humours" theory by the Greeks) to explain everything that was unexplainable... but it eventually fell apart under scrutiny.

I think it's sad that some folks need the approval of other dead folks in order to validate their own thinking.

It found its way into a myriad of different parts of languages and aspects of human life that were essentially separate from each other. (Although if someone could draw a useful parallel between Seiki and Tenki...I'll buy a years worth of Oreos just for them :D )...and that's something that needs to be recognized.

Well, my wife gets sexually aroused during severe rain storms, especially with lightening( and the accompanying thunder)( something about the "pure, raw, energy")( we have a Florida room and a hammock that's seen more action than a $10 room at the "Wardorf"). So, do I get the Oreos? I'd prefer raw spinach.

Upyu

01-01-2009, 05:27 PM

If you have something to contribute, get on with it, please,

Err...I have and then some (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=mhB0jR6xVek&feature=related), if you hadn't been following my last couple of posts.

RonRagusa

01-01-2009, 08:37 PM

I stand my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe...

Gene -

Ok, I'll accept your assertion at face value. Ki is a part of the energy spectrum pervading all the universe. That does raise a few of questions though:

Where in the spectrum does Ki lie?
What is the wave length of Ki?
What is the exchange particle responsible for the transmission of Ki energy?
What theory of physics predicts the existence of Ki energy or the Ki particle?
Lacking answers to the above questions can you propose possible experiments that can be conducted in a lab that would lead to the formulation of a theory explaining Ki energy in terms of physical law?

I asked you about this in another thread but you must have not seen the post, so here it is again. Let me be perfectly clear, I'm not trying to say you are incorrect. If, however, you're going to postulate a form of energy not currently recognized or predicted by modern physical theory you should be prepared to address fundamental questions regarding the characteristics of that energy.

Ron

jennifer paige smith

01-01-2009, 08:53 PM

Gene -

Ok, I'll accept your assertion at face value. Ki is a part of the energy spectrum pervading all the universe. That does raise a few of questions though:

Where in the spectrum does Ki lie?
What is the wave length of Ki?
What is the exchange particle responsible for the transmission of Ki energy?
What theory of physics predicts the existence of Ki energy or the Ki particle?
Lacking answers to the above questions can you propose possible experiments that can be conducted in a lab that would lead to the formulation of a theory explaining Ki energy in terms of physical law?

I asked you about this in another thread but you must have not seen the post, so here it is again. Let me be perfectly clear, I'm not trying to say you are incorrect. If, however, you're going to postulate a form of energy not currently recognized or predicted by modern physical theory you should be prepared to address fundamental questions regarding the characteristics of that energy.

Ron

Well, I'm not Gene, obviously, but I do believe that these things are being discussed with relative sound science in Quantum Physics. I'm not saying I have the answer. I am saying they are worth keeping an mind open to as science begins to develop a language for their general consumption.

I found this link on the web and I believe it may offer information related to some of these concepts. http://www.scribd.com/doc/4972662/Souls-of-Distortion-Awakening

I'm going to check it out more deeply as it seems curious enough for me.

raul rodrigo

01-01-2009, 09:01 PM

jennifer paige smith

01-01-2009, 09:10 PM

If light is made of particles..........

GeneC

01-01-2009, 09:11 PM

Gene -

Ok, I'll accept your assertion at face value. Ki is a part of the energy spectrum pervading all the universe. That does raise a few of questions though:Ron

I appreciate where you're coming from with this line of questioning and couldn't tell you where on the spectrum nor what the wavelength is anymore than where any other form of energy is, but that's not my field of vocation.
Also, afa I understand it, alot of the energies and phenomenon in the Universe is proved only by mathmatical calculation, which formula I don't have either, but there's plenty of examples of it's existance, like the spark of energy that causes a newborn to live and breathe or a seed to burst open into a plant, etc.
God is the Creator of all energies in the Universe and while I can't prove His existance in a lab, I still believe.

GeneC

01-01-2009, 09:40 PM

My own thinking is that detailed scientific questions about the physics of ki beg the question. Regardless of how one explains aiki, the key question to my mind is: can one manifest this power? best,R

The short answer is no, as by definition, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transferred. So, to me, Aiki is transferring this energy from the surrounding air, into your body and out thru your action.

raul rodrigo

01-01-2009, 09:42 PM

Then let me make the question more precise. Can you or your teachers manifest ki in the standard ki tests that Ueshiba did?

Erick Mead

01-01-2009, 09:45 PM

Gene -

Ok, I'll accept your assertion at face value. Ki is a part of the energy spectrum pervading all the universe. That does raise a few of questions though: I'm going to take up the issue for Gene because the premise of the question ( and Gene's belief) illustrate the misperception of the concept

Where in the spectrum does Ki lie?Ki is the oscillation forming every wavelength of the spectrum.
What is the wave length of Ki?Any of them, because Ki is the wave oscillation, itself.
What is the exchange particle responsible for the transmission of Ki energy? Every wave/particle possesses Ki which is its oscillation. Even the background vacuum oscillates from zero to +1/-1, constantly.
What theory of physics predicts the existence of Ki energy or the Ki particle?All three -- classical, relativistic and quantum mechanics, are predictive of angular momentum as a fundamental quantity relating what we distinguish as mass and energy.

All "energy" is carried in quanta of wave/particles, but even massless energy, such as light, has a non-zero angular momentum defined by its oscillation, alone. Momentum is independent of mass.

Even seemingly at-rest matter with "zero" velocity has momentum called inertial moment. This is the "resistance" of "non-moving" matter shown in Newton's first and third laws of motion. Inertial moment is simply the sum of the oscillations of the mass (and massless) wave/particles within it. In the same exact way that a gyroscope resists motion of its axis because of its periodic motion, the randomly oriented and incessant oscillations of the wave/particles comprising the mass resist any motion, in any direction.

Reduce the the oscillations substantially (cool it) and the inertia of the mass can changes radically in certain ways, as seen in the superfluidity of liquid helium, or BEC states of matter, and more commonly in the simple changes of physical state from gas to liquid to solid.

Align and match the phase of all those oscillations of matter that has loosely bound electrons and you get an electromagnetic field, which being nonrandom, shows the cumulative positive and negative poles of the oscillations which are now coordinated.

Seen in this perspective, (although this is speculation on my part), gravity may simply be the "opposite pole" pairing the inertia created by mass oscillation. If you posit forces, vice oscillation (momentum) effects this parity that seems obvious from an angular momentum perspective is hidden by a circular definition in terms of forces, since "gravity" is seen to operate as a force, while inertia is not (though there is no rational reason for not calling inertia a "force"), if we choose that convention, since "action" by definition requires a force, and the inertial reaction of mass is also force -- but we somehow fail to fully realize the significance of that fact. Gravity may simply be no more than the fact that all mass pulls other mass because all mass pushes back when pushed. It may be a parity law, after all.

Lacking answers to the above questions can you propose possible experiments that can be conducted in a lab that would lead to the formulation of a theory explaining Ki energy in terms of physical law? They've been done and it is simply a matter of applying the right physical convention, understood in a broader way.

raul rodrigo

01-01-2009, 09:50 PM

Assuming that you are correct, Erick, how then does one put that information into a framework for training that would eventually enable a student to carry out the standard ki tests?

best,

R

Erick Mead

01-01-2009, 10:55 PM

Assuming that you are correct, Erick, how then does one put that information into a framework for training that would eventually enable a student to carry out the standard ki tests?I cannot speak explicitly to the Tohei framework, since I trained through both Saotome and Saito's lineages, and some limited exposure to Yoshinkan. But I don't think that really matters, because Ki is Ki, and training that improves any uses of Ki improves all the uses of Ki.

Aikido training is tapping into the fundamental and powerful nature of oscillatory power (our bipedal balance system is explicitly oscillatory) -- and O Sensei signalled this throughout his teachings on things like kotodama, furitama (spirit shaking), tekubi furi, (wrist shaking) funetori (boat rowing) and any number of Doka, like the red an white jewels, that control the ebb and flow of tides, and my favorite of which, capturing both low frequency (undulating) and high frequency (buzzing) oscillations as the explicit manifestations of Ki is this:

The honored techniques if KI
May manifest the spirit of the Great Snake
Or that of Bees
To make such spirits (tama) appear
Is the Way of Takemusu

It is my considered opinion that combined aspects of sensitizing the body to be attuned to these natural rhythms (aiki), allows one to begin to exploit them more readily -- at points in space and time that when there can be no resistance to the manipulation. In oscillatory terms that point of absolutely no resistance ( in both spatial and temporal terms) is another explicit concept that O Sensei tauight -- Juuji -- 90 degree or right-angle relationships -- harmonic relationships, creating a driving resonance between two interacting oscillating systems. At 90 degrees phase difference in oscillations, when one system is at maximum positive or negative the other is at zero, and when the one is at zero the other is maximum positive or negative. No resistance is possible in this orientation.

The secret in gaining in sensitivity is simply in rigorous training in the "mystical crap" or otherwise "wierd-seeming" aiki taiso such as furitama, tekubi furi, ude furi, funetori (and I do not rule out kotodama training, though it has never been taught to me, apart from certain vocalizations for funetori). Paired practice such as the kokyu dosa, and the forms of the waza, isolate the sensation of the nature action from the anticipation of the form of the action. These allow one to begin to learn the feel of the other persons structure and dynamic through these mechanisms.

I know it works, because I can literally feel my way into another persons body in a tactile sense in kokyu tanden ho, and the same way my seniors told me they could do when I still thought it was mainly mystical crap (but unmistakeably effective mystical crap). Now I know it is physical. It is as entirely real as the sound I can hear without seeing the immediate cause of it. I may have finally sorted out why, or at least found a decent starting position for doing so.

The secret in application, I have come to conclude, is to think deeply about the ways in which resonance, harmonics and other aspects of 90 degree relationships may be set up or addressed in the response to attack, and to begin to see how these are already powerfully expressed in the formal waza, espcially in the spiral rotations that signal such as situation. And in developing an intense weapons practice where they have to become much more precise, and which finally disposes of any hope of using leverage as the principle of action at the point of engagement.

I have not the resources to compare the portions of the DTR syllabus that O Sensei explicitly dropped, but my gut at this point tells me that those he dropped likely exhibited little or none of these principles and were more allied to leverage principles also seen in other schools of jujitsu and were therefore discarded, infavor of concentration on this view of Ki as a martial tool. Someone around here was working on classifying what was dropped from the DTR syllabus. It may be possible to use this hypothesis as a rubric to examine them to see if this may have been among the rationales (there were surely others, too) that may explain some of those he dropped.

In the case of unbendable arm, one "ki-test" I have been exposed to, is to emphasize letting only one of the paired skeletal muscles do work at any given time -- i.e. ensure that the body is orienting itself in properly positive-negative poles in every element when expressing Ki. The more typical situation of untrained persons is to have counter-action of the skeletal muscles at every joint (as with the biceps/triceps) that is used to stabilize the joint fulcrum when using leverage. With leverage, limb rotations are opposed to one another. Ki doesn't use leverage. All rotations go the same way with Ki (until, of course, they automatically reverse (reflect) at some discontinuity and all go back the other way again).

The counteraction (entirely necessary to use effective joint leverage) is wasted energy when using Ki. Leverage stability counteraction directly reduces the effective force of the action muscle. The counter-tension also inhibits the free flow of Ki (understood as oscillation) in the body in the negative (or zero) channels (depending on how you look at it), by damping oscillations that would otherwise move freely, and thus also be felt more clearly.

I hope that gives some practical and hopefully useful, initial consequences to this admittedly large attempt at a comprehensive physical theory of Ki.

Erick Mead

01-02-2009, 12:25 AM

This discussion helped crystallize thoughts I have been working in various portions for a while now. I really think my riff on the physical aspects has departed the discussion topic, though. So I split that out in the General forum http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=222610#post222610 -- but before I did that, I worked through the thoughts in a more comprehensive dialogue in my aikiblog. http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/physical-theory-of-aiki-3404/

I hope there some critical and constructive comments on where these ideas stand at this point..

RonRagusa

01-02-2009, 04:53 AM

Hi Ron:

My own thinking is that detailed scientific questions about the physics of ki beg the question. Regardless of how one explains aiki, the key question to my mind is: can one manifest this power? Can one do the ki tests that Ueshiba and Shioda and Tohei could do? The jo "trick," or instantly reversing a shove to the shoulders, as in the 1935 Asahi demo, or being unliftable, or a number of other feats documented on video/film. I happen to think that Rob, Mike S and the rest of the Ki Club, to use Kevin L's term, have a workable, testable framework for explaining and teaching ki. But in the end, doesn't it come down to what one can or cannot do--or if one is still struggling with it, then what one's teachers can or cannot do? Science is science because it provides among other things a forum for falsifiability--a way to check assertions empirically and in a reproducible fashion. If one says, ki is x, one should be able to follow up with, i know this because of y and z empirical experiences, not just to assert that for instance, "Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

best,

R

Hi Raul -

While I never had any direct exposure to O Sensei or Yoshinkan, the Ki testing and exercises of Tohei have been an integral part of my training from the very beginning. When I began Aikido Maruyama Sensei was still affiliated with Ki Society and even after he left, Sensei continued to emphasize Ki development as part of his instruction. As an independent instructor I continue to carry on Ki development as an integral part of my own training and teaching in the manner that I was taught.

So, yes, I can do the exercises and demonstrations and my students can perform them as well.

Best,

Ron

aikilouis

01-02-2009, 05:04 AM

Well, I'm not Gene, obviously, but I do believe that these things are being discussed with relative sound science in Quantum Physics. I'm not saying I have the answer. I am saying they are worth keeping an mind open to as science begins to develop a language for their general consumption.

I found this link on the web and I believe it may offer information related to some of these concepts. http://www.scribd.com/doc/4972662/Souls-of-Distortion-Awakening

This book doesn't seem very serious. When you read stuff like "Revival of Atlantean Knowledge" in the table of contents, alarm bells start ringing.

RonRagusa

01-02-2009, 05:06 AM

Ki is the oscillation forming every wavelength of the spectrum.

Hi Erick -

All of the subsequent statements in your post follow from this premise. The statement is really kind of beautiful in its simplicity as it removes the need to describe Ki in any physical way. It's almost (but not quite) as if you're likening Ki to the aether of pre-Relativitistic physics.

Best,

Ron

Erick Mead

01-02-2009, 05:53 AM

All of the subsequent statements in your post follow from this premise. The statement is really kind of beautiful in its simplicity as it removes the need to describe Ki in any physical way. It's almost (but not quite) as if you're likening Ki to the aether of pre-Relativitistic physics.You have a point, and yes, I have considered that. However, that is seeking the answer to the question "What is oscillating?" We only know the ultimate nature of the "what", the substance, through the form of its observation, (the oscillations). It may be irreducible, who knows?

As quantum mechanics has shown the "what" is a very knotty problem. It seems to relate intimately to the "problem" of observer bias. That has long implied, and continues to imply (to many) a "who," which is not a very comforting thought to the reductionists. (Bishop Berkeley keeps knocking 'em back.)

In any event, I don't have to resolve that dark quandary to make this observation the basis of a physical understanding of Ki that can bridge the divide between a traditional knowledge of Ki as a physically operative concept and that of physics. That may be the best way to see it, actually -- Ki is not a theory as to a substance, it is a theory as to an operation, and the nature of the ultimate substance (or whether there is any, as such) may remain as much as mystery as it is to quantum mechanics, because its operations as to our conventional substances at grosser scales is essentially the same, regardless of the answer to that question.

raul rodrigo

01-02-2009, 06:58 AM

Erick Mead

01-02-2009, 07:20 AM

I was making a more general point: that it's all too easy to create a theory of ki untethered to empirical, testable propositions. And I would be wary of theories that do not easily provide us with falsifiable assertions and more concretely, a definite way of training to improve our aikido. Then we share the same general objectives.

No luminous being am I ... ;)

C. David Henderson

01-02-2009, 08:27 AM

Erick's elegant idea that ki describes oscillation as a characteristic of, among other things, physical interaction and Gene's question about the ki of a bursting seed have some things in common, from over here.

They both seem to me to describe, not a measure of "energy," but a type of potentiality. The potential of systems to unfold in terms of organizational principles (angular momentum or DNA), which in each case (to take a stab at it) describe how energy flows through the system, alters the system, and/or manifests itself in the system over time.

Speaking of spirals, I recall seeing a film once of two sea eagles in a mating ritual. They clasp talons while aloft, and spiral, locked together, towards the earth. At some point, they break off, and correct their flight. It was beautiful and suggestive.

DH

jennifer paige smith

01-02-2009, 10:38 AM

This book doesn't seem very serious. When you read stuff like "Revival of Atlantean Knowledge" in the table of contents, alarm bells start ringing.

Fair enough.
Some would say that much of well accepted asian philosophy falls into the above category as well.

And I agree that there is definitely a lot of information involved in that book. It does appear to approach certain meta-physical topics from many different angles. Some of which I didn't go near. Some I found very curious.

As an open-minded individual I would encourage you not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I definitely did the 'pick and choose'. As usual, a person can look for something that might speak to them. If it doesn't ,it doesn't. And that is good information, too. And since I didn't offer this was a way to fix a car on a dark highway, I see no need to go into alarm mode.

This is the spiritual thread, so ya get what ya get.

Thanks for checking it out.:)

jennifer paige smith

01-02-2009, 10:46 AM

Hi Ron:

I was aware of your background with Maruyama sensei, so my question wasn't directed at you personally. I was pretty sure that senior students of Tohei and Maruyama can perform the ki tests. I was making a more general point: that it's all too easy to create a theory of ki untethered to empirical, testable propositions. And I would be wary of theories that do not easily provide us with falsifiable assertions and more concretely, a definite way of training to improve our aikido.

best,

R

Hi Raul, I know this was addressed to Ron, but here I am.

The places where 'ki', or extended power as one definition, has entered my life in a concrete way has mostly not been in the dojo, but rather on the street and in my 'real life'. It has proved it's pre-emption,connection, and combat effectiveness. Which covers a lot of threads obsessions about something lacking in the art or something lacking in the training that's now offered. Aikido has met it's mettle in my first hand life and that covers it, for me.

For others whose lives center around empiricism the method you describe would seem more appropriate to them.

Having said that, I would enjoy training in whatever traditional skills find their way to my training. Including the Ki society exercises that are both grounded and fascinating.

raul rodrigo

01-02-2009, 11:10 AM

jennifer paige smith

01-02-2009, 11:32 AM

Hi Jen:

I am not questioning ki, its reality or its importance. I am saying that there are established tests for ki that Ueshiba, Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei and other senior deshi could do. A theory of ki that works should, to my mind, enable a student to retrace their learning process so that a student could himself carry out these tests. In the absence of some test, some experiential evidence, how can we tell who has the goods and who does not--or whose theory actually works?

Hi Raul,
I didn't think you were. So we're on the same page there.

I came to aikido out of a sense of magnetism. I simply was atracted to it for no specific reason and found amazing ( and very difficult) things came to me from training. I have continued to follow in my own tradition of being drawn to things; be they teachers, practices,information, or praxis. This method has been encompassing and effective for me. For my own part, I can retrace them, rebuild them,name them and , in the context of the dojo, dissect them to their parts; mechanically and otherwise.
As I am an instructor who owns her own dojo, I am always on the lookout for teachers who can impart lessons in whatever way students can grasp so they can benefit, in real time, in the training of martial arts.
It probably goes without saying that not everyone learns or operates as I do. I offer teachers to my students who can teach in a way that others can solidly learn from. Your method may very well become one of them. In fact, some of them are.
If you come to the Central Coast of CA, you'd always be welcome to come and share some of the things that you are working on. We'd treat you real nice and show you around to a couple of breweries !
Thanks for the dialog

GeneC

01-02-2009, 01:48 PM

I'm going to take up the issue for Gene because the premise of the question ( and Gene's belief) illustrate the misperception of the concept

WOW, alot of good exchange of ideas. Too bad it's brought down by "barnyard" politics. We may get to the bottom of just what Ki is, how it works/ flows/manifests itself (or not), etc, only if we can minimize the "if you don't think like me, then you just mis-perceive", we might come to the conclusion that it can't be proven in a lab, but can't be denied.
Btw, premise of which question?

GeneC

01-02-2009, 06:54 PM

Ki is the oscillation forming every wavelength of the spectrum

So, we agree that there IS a spectrum (something in question earlier), but it went from having a place in the "Spectrum", to being the Spectrum? I find that hard to accept, as that'd mean one could emit light, heat, electricity, Gamma rays, X-rays, etc out of their bodys. Folks'd be melting down, bursting into flames, vaporizing, glowing in the dark, etc

Erick Mead

01-02-2009, 07:26 PM

So, we agree that there IS a spectrum (something in question earlier), but it went from having a place in the "Spectrum", to being the Spectrum? No. You missed it. Spectra are divisions of wavelength of oscillation, all instances of which are aspects of Ki -- or if you prefer, angular momentum. I find that hard to accept, as that'd mean one could emit light, heat, electricity, Gamma rays, X-rays, etc out of their bodys. Folks'd be melting down, bursting into flames, vaporizing, glowing in the dark, etcNot unless you are composed of bosons -- unlike the rest of us cold, dark excluded fermion-folk -- but, hey -- it takes all kinds. :) Not all oscillations are created equal, it seems. Damned exclusion principle!. NO justice, NO peace! I say. :D

Oh! Wait!

I do glow -- in infrared!

C. David Henderson

01-02-2009, 07:44 PM

I like uncertainty as a principle; except when I don't.

Erick Mead

01-02-2009, 07:46 PM

WOW, alot of good exchange of ideas. Too bad it's brought down by "barnyard" politics. We may get to the bottom of just what Ki is, how it works/ flows/manifests itself (or not), etc, only if we can minimize the "if you don't think like me, then you just mis-perceive", we might come to the conclusion that it can't be proven in a lab, but can't be denied.
Btw, premise of which question?Actually, it wasn't directed at you as such. The premise was this: Ki is a part of the energy spectrum pervading all the universe You seemed to accept that premise. Strictly speaking it is wrong, because Ki is not energy. Ki, understood as oscillation is the framework for all energy pervading the universe, and also the framework of all mass pervading the universe and -- also -- the framework of all nothing pervading the universe -- vacuum fluctuation, the very busy "nothing" that is everywhere. I think that about covers it.

I do take it that you were not speaking strictly, but the misperception lies in assuming that the use of "energy" in the loose sense can equate to Ki in the strict sense -- and it can't, the concept is both far broader in scope and much more narrow in concept.

Erick Mead

01-02-2009, 07:54 PM

I like uncertainty as a principle; except when I don't.I KNEW that would be your position -- but now, I do not know where you are heading ... :eek:

C. David Henderson

01-02-2009, 08:02 PM

Well, at least you know where I am

GeneC

01-03-2009, 07:31 PM

Actually, it wasn't directed at you as such.
So, what does that mean? I'm not allowed to respond? As far as I know, if it's posted, it's open to response. This is a public forum, right(oh, btw, this is the thread, not the blog)?

The premise was this: Ki is a part of the energy spectrum pervading( : to become diffused throughout every part of )
all the universe You seemed to accept that premise. Strictly speaking it is wrong, Ok, "Strickly speaking". Funny why'd you say "Strickly speaking"? Would the meaning change if we spoke 'less strictly', or 'not strictly' at all? Do you have to say "Strickly Speaking" to make a (opposing) point? Change it so you could say it's wrong? What I said was:
There's a huge spectrum of energy flowing thru the universe, that makes all things exist, from the entire expanding Universe.....to revolving atoms, all things we know of are in it: sound- ultra sound to microwaves, X rays, Gamma rays, etc, color, light, electricity, magnetism , electro-magnetism, etc. The energy we call spiritual is part of that spectrum. The Japanese call it Ki the Chinese call it Ch'i. We just mostly call it a higher power( unless we use another cultures word

...because Ki is not energy.
Unproven

Ki, as understood as oscillation...
Understood by whom? My first understanding of "oscillation"was that fan in the liviing room. So, you say Ki is not energy , but it oscillates.
...is the framework for all energy pervading( editted to define:to become diffused throughout every part of ) the universe, and also the framework of all mass pervading(editted to define:to become diffused throughout every part of ) the universe and -- also -- the framework of all nothing pervading(editted to define:to become diffused throughout every part of ) the universe -- vacuum fluctuation, the very busy "nothing" that is pervading (editted to define:to become diffused throughout every part of ) everywhere. I think that about covers it

I think it basically covers.... not alot( except i.e., trying to put a square peg into a round hole), certainly not some perceived premise that you perceived me to perceive. Yes, I think that about covers it.

.

C. David Henderson

01-03-2009, 07:54 PM

Erick Mead

01-03-2009, 08:28 PM

So, what does that mean? I'm not allowed to respond? As far as I know, if it's posted, it's open to response. This is a public forum, right(oh, btw, this is the thread, not the blog)? You are free to respond, it was just not a personal comment toward you.

Ok, "Strickly speaking". Funny why'd you say "Strickly speaking"? Would the meaning change if we spoke 'less strictly', or 'not strictly' at all? Do you have to say "Strickly Speaking" to make a (opposing) point? Change it so you could say it's wrong? No. I said it because you (like many, many good and worthy people) tend to use the word "energy" in this context in its loosest possible connotations, whereas I mean it in its strict physical sense, and which I meant merely to distinguish, not criticize. Nothing more. Really.

...because Ki is not energy.
Unproven That part is pretty definite. Mass and energy are distinct in our physics, even though they are also deemed equivalent. Ki specifically conflates them in the traditional sources. The ki that we can see is the ki that fills up a space, but this is not all there is to ki. The One primal ki forms all the things of heaven and earth, material and non-material, omitting nothing. Energy is not material. Therefore, Ki is not energy. Though Ki also plainly forms both mass and energy.

So, you say Ki is not energy , but it oscillates. No, that is exactly not what I said, but it is precisely the misperception I mentioned and am attempting to gently correct. Ki, in this understanding IS oscillation, which is to say in physical terms that it IS angular momentum. Oscillation forms matter and forms energy and is KI -- Ki is neither mass nor energy, but forms both. What it is that Ki forms so as to make mass and energy is a question that escapes us -- as yet. A mystery -- as my tradition would have it.

A mystery may be unproven, but it is not necessarily unknown.

RonRagusa

01-03-2009, 08:50 PM

Ki, in this understanding IS oscillation, which is to say in physical terms that it IS angular momentum. Oscillation forms matter and forms energy and is KI -- Ki is neither mass nor energy, but forms both. What it is that Ki forms so as to make mass and energy is a question that escapes us -- as yet. A mystery -- as my tradition would have it.

Plainly stated and finally understood. Thanks Erick.

Ron

GeneC

01-04-2009, 09:40 PM

Gene,

If you'll allow, may I ask you a question?

Does the idea of a bursting seed illustrate something essential to your idea of "ki"?

For me, the creative potential of life is a powerful idea. Since you mentioned it earlier, I'd respectfully invite you to add to your comment. The concept of "ki" is, after all, an issue that interested you enough to start a conversation.

Yes, to me, Ki is one of the most wonderful things in the Universe, that a human being can experience, while alive. Ki is the opportunity to 'tap' (for lack of a better word) into the "energy spectrum" in the Universe and channel it out of your own body with the power akin to that of a bursting seed (or the energy released in a popcorn, etc), but the relevancy you're asking about is the mystery as to where the energy comes from, like that of a newborn baby's first breath. AFA I know, my sig tells me where and when, now just need to learn the how.

I'm really having a hard time accepting the 'oscillating' theory explaining Ki, IMO, as it explains the energy transfer of a Slinky more than anything else.

eyrie

01-04-2009, 11:12 PM

AFA I know, my sig tells me where and when, now just need to learn the how. The problem with that is that I don't think that will get you very far... If emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body, a blood-curdling ki-ai *could* be what you're looking for, however the harmony of yin/yang cannot exist between the breath coz you'd be breathing out at that time.

The only 3 keys (pun intended) as it pertains to martial application are ten no ki, chi no ki, and jin no ki. Looking elsewhere, to me, would be a waste of time... ;)

Upyu

01-05-2009, 12:21 AM

Carl Thompson

01-05-2009, 02:53 AM

however the harmony of yin/yang cannot exist between the breath coz you'd be breathing out at that time.

Maybe look at this (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15433) before you go any further with this argument.

Erick Mead

01-05-2009, 08:13 AM

Maybe look at this (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15433) before you go any further with this argument.
And this:http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=222875&postcount=28

The quoted portion of Abe Sensei is from here: http://www.doshinokai.com/Aikido_Doshinokai-Articles_files/Kojiki.pdf

jennifer paige smith

01-05-2009, 09:04 AM

Yes, to me, Ki is one of the most wonderful things in the Universe, that a human being can experience, while alive. Ki is the opportunity to 'tap' (for lack of a better word) into the "energy spectrum" in the Universe and channel it out of your own body with the power akin to that of a bursting seed (or the energy released in a popcorn, etc), but the relevancy you're asking about is the mystery as to where the energy comes from, like that of a newborn baby's first breath. AFA I know, my sig tells me where and when, now just need to learn the how.

Try 'Musu' and then add a 'Take'.

C. David Henderson

01-05-2009, 09:41 AM

Gene,

Thank you for your sincere answer.

FWIW, the way a number of people approach training to harness more power in their arts is pretty similar to training for internal power in CMA, which I know you've also studied.

On that subject, I guess I agree with what Budd said a few pages back -- it's less important what you call it (or how you understand it), than figuring out a way to train so you can manifest it.

Do you have any thoughts on training the body in a way that accesses ki as you understand it?

Respectfully,

DH

Upyu

01-05-2009, 09:43 AM

Nice little description of building up the interior muscles which are needed to do the body skills mentioned by others...

The center is under the navel. There are 2 muscles which are vertical and diagonal muscle
under the navel. When you hold in your stomach at practice of Misogi, you can see the muscles.
When you hold in your stomach during serious practice of Misogi, you would feel that the skin
on your stomach sticks to your back. If you practice those 4 kinds of breathing in such situation,
you would get great concentration power.
You hold breathing in the lower part of lung. This power transmits to abdominal muscle. The
abdominal muscle was built up by the practice with breathing. That’s why the shape of
abdominal muscle built by Aikido is different from the muscle built by push-ups or physical
exercise.

GeneC

01-06-2009, 06:45 PM

The problem with that is that I don't think that will get you very far... If emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body, a blood-curdling ki-ai *could* be what you're looking for, however the harmony of yin/yang cannot exist between the breath coz you'd be breathing out at that time.

How do you figure that? Please explain how "between the breath" is "breathing out at the same time"? at the same time?
Anyway, Pure energy flowing FREELY thru the body is not reliant on anything else, kinda like the energy flowing in/around/from the Sun in this Solar System. I'd think the "Ki-ai" or kai-i" or Ai'-yai-yai"or "oorrahh" 'd be the focus point to "expel" the Ki that's been built up, along with breathing out, while simultaneously performing the action. The LOCATION of Ki( and the harmony of Yin/Yang) is at the moment between breathing in and breathing out, like my sig says.

GeneC

01-06-2009, 09:28 PM

Gene,Thank you for your sincere answer.....Do you have any thoughts on training the body in a way that accesses ki as you understand it?Respectfully,DH

OK, Dave, respectfully as well, before we go further, let's not "beat around the bush". If you have a direct issue here, let's get to it.
I have Stephan Stenudd's book,"QI: Increase your life enrgy" and intend on practicing all the exersizes that it suggests to increase my QI, but other than that, my experience has been what I've been taught in the past and that was exercise my core strength to it's maximum and maintain a healthy diet and cardio regime, but other than that, to focus all my energy into my action and perform that action to the best of my ability and it's always worked for me. YMMV

Erick Mead

01-06-2009, 11:23 PM

How do you figure that? Please explain how "between the breath" is "breathing out at the same time"? at the same time?...The LOCATION of Ki( and the harmony of Yin/Yang) is at the moment between breathing in and breathing out, like my sig says.What Abe Sensei said -- the center you seek moves around -- it is no more static than the breath. The breath process cycles, and there are many "still" points of different character in that cycle.

There are three forms of breath. Passive breath -- breath driven mostly by motions elsewhere in the body or from outside the body is ten no kokyu. Breath driven intensively by the whole apparatus devoted to breathing is chi no kokyu. Just breathing easily like we naturally breathe is jin no kokyu.

First, there is inhaling from slack breath, or exhaling from the slack -- the lungs are never empty. Two still points. And there is arriving at slack from inhaling , or from exhaling. That is two more for four points of stillness -- all zero with low innate potential and with different vectors. There is also reversal at the maximum phases with high innate potential at the reversal between inhalation and exhalation and the reversal between exhalation and inhalation . That's two more.

But there are two more -- one where the exhalation phase shifts from passive (static tension) to be active, driven by intentional muscular contraction. (Heaven and earth meet.) The other one is the same shift during inhalation. These can be shifted around because people can actively drive their breath at various points in the cycle.

They can choose to drive it or they can also choose to stop it in the same manner. When stopped they can reverse the driving vector (two more) at that point, or allow the natural breath to take over in whatever direction (two more).

Aiming for harmony in kokyu with an opponent is not a simplistic proposition, I hope to make clear.