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GeneC
12-02-2008, 07:14 PM
I'm reading "Aikido Weapons Technique" by Phong Thong Dang and our own Dr Lynn Seiser. My question is, it describes the 8 point ken kata, with the right foot forward, starting at 6:00, then turn to 12:00, then to 3:00, then turn to 9:00 and so on. How does one actually do the turn? What's the footwork sequence?

Nathan Wallace
12-04-2008, 10:02 AM
Sensei Phong is the nicest guy! I'm Tenshinkai! woot. Any way you may think there is some fancy steps in there but there isn't. cut with the right foot forward then turn around and cut with the left foot forward, this is not a step you keep your feet on the ground as you turn. then to '3:00' on the right foot then again turn around. this ovcourse depends on who you ask. I've all kinds of ways to do this. Even some sensei's do it a different way everytime.

SmilingNage
12-04-2008, 03:16 PM
If you are talking about Happo-Giri, then your right foot's position will direct your movement. From right hamni, slide right foot and cut. Turn to your left, cut. Only rotate your body do not move your feet. You will be in left hamni. Slide your right foot in the direction it is facing. Since you are in left hamni, your right foot will be facing the 9:00 position, slide in that direction and cut. Then your trunk to the left and cut without moving your legs. After that, the right foot will be your guide as where you should slide next. The next slide and cut will bring to face the 6:00 position. Keep doing this until you get back to your starting position.

Basically its the 1st boken suburi practice, with the addition of a cut to the rear. Remember not to turn with your upper body, use your hips to turn your body. There are many variations of the exercise but thats the way I was taught. And as always check with your instructor to make sure you are getting it right.

GeneC
12-04-2008, 04:06 PM
Thankyou. Funny, the book doesn't mention pivoting on your feet and taking a step so that your right foot is forward at the cut (because the right hand is leading on the Ken), but the pics show the Ken-ka with his right foot forward, except( the 90deg turn)for the tsuki.

GeneC
12-04-2008, 07:26 PM
If you are talking about Happo-Giri,.....

I'm not sure, the book doesn't give it a name, other than "The 8 Direction Cut".

cconstantine
12-05-2008, 12:13 PM
Here's how we do it; happo undo, happo giri, and [what we call] the "first bokken kata."

LH = left hanmi
RH = right hanmi

Happo undo (8 direction exercise) is basically ikkyo undo in 8 directions. For the following, "ikkyo" means do a single ikkyo undo without changing hanmi -- ie, do not step forward. In parentheses I've included the equivalent compass directions you are facing if you were to watch from above.

So, starting in LH:
1: ikkyo (north)
2: pivot 180 degrees towards your right into RH, ikkyo (south)
3: step 90 degrees towards your left side into LH, ikkyo (east)
4: pivot 180 into RH, ikkyo (west)
5: step 45 degrees to your left in LH, ikkyo (southwest)
6: pivot 180 into RH, ikkyo (northeast)
7: step left 90 degrees into LH, ikkyo (northwest)
8: pivot right 180 in RH, ikkyo (southeast)

(...and you can repeat by doing step 1. We step far around to left -- returning to the same "north" -- so the direction of "1." is always the same.) I hope the symmetry of "ikkyo in left hanmi, pivot, ikkyo in right" repeated four times is obvious in my description. Where exactly you step to with the left foot is the part that varies.

Happo giri of course is with bokken; So we start in RH. But it's still always "a step with your left foot", "cut", "a pivot to your right", and "cut" repeated four times. The compass directions are the same as happo undo.

cut = shomen uchi cut
0. start in RH
1. step forward to LH, cut
2. pivot right 180 degrees into RH, cut
3. step left 90 into LH, cut
4. pivot 180 to RH, cut
5. step left 45 into LH, cut
6. pivot 180 to RH, cut
7. step left 90 into LH, cut
8. pivot 180 to RH, cut
(...and of course repeatable with a "step to your left" returning you to "north" for step 1.)

Then our first bokken kata adds a "slide and tsuki" after the first four cuts, and a rotary cutting finish:

slide = move front foot forward, then move rear foot forward; do not change hanmi
0. start in RH
1. step forward into LH, cut, slide, tsuki
2. pivot right 180, cut, slide, tsuki
3. step left 90, cut, slide, tsuki
4. pivot right 180, cut, slide tsuki
5. step left 45, cut
6. pivot right 180, cut
7. step left 90, cut
8. pivot right 180, cut
9. change to high carry
(bring right foot closer[rearward] to left foot, stay in RH, bring bokken up to high carry on your left side)
10. pivoting to your right, make two full rotary cuts[bodily rotations], stopping in LH with bokken in high carry on your right. (finish still facing in the same direction that you make the 8th cut in.)

Larry Cuvin
12-05-2008, 12:53 PM
When you pivot, pivot from your toes.

GeneC
12-05-2008, 12:53 PM
On the Tsuki slide, are you talking about sliding your forward foot way back behind yourself?

So am I perceiving this correctly that it doesn't matter which foot is forward, one still maintains a right hand forward grip in the Ken/Jo?

cconstantine
12-05-2008, 01:08 PM
On the Tsuki slide, are you talking about sliding your forward foot way back behind yourself?

No. Slide front foot forward, then slide rear foot forward.

In reality, the slide and the tsuki are one motion. You slide forward as you perform the tsuki thrust with the bokken.

For example, in the intial movements of first bokken kata, you're in RH. We step forward into LH, and do the shomen uchi (remaining in LH). Then we slide forward (left foot slides forward, right foot slides forward; you're still in LH.) Now tsuki staying in LH.

So am I perceiving this correctly that it doesn't matter which foot is forward, one still maintains a right hand forward grip in the Ken/Jo?

Correct (for Ken). Always righthand forward grip.

GeneC
12-05-2008, 01:22 PM
Also, the book says to slightly shift your weight to the rear just prior to the Shomenuchi. What I find myself doing is 'kipping my hips forward and down' (after shifting my weight back prior) at the apex of the Shomenuchi (on the downstroke) and quickly shifting my weight forward( I spent alot of time behind an ax, pickaxe and railroad spike hammer), so that my back remains straight. Is this correct?

GeneC
12-05-2008, 01:35 PM
No. Slide front foot forward, then slide rear foot forward.

In reality, the slide and the tsuki are one motion. You slide forward as you perform the tsuki thrust with the bokken.

For example, in the intial movements of first bokken kata, you're in RH. We step forward into LH, and do the shomen uchi (remaining in LH). Then we slide forward (left foot slides forward, right foot slides forward; you're still in LH.) Now tsuki staying in LH.

This book (Aikido Weapons Techniques by our own Lynn Seiser, et al), which is from the Tenshinkai Aikido, says that, as a variation of the "8 direction cut" is right after a Komenuchi (right foot forward), chamber "omote" 90deg (to the left) making left foot way behind, then step left foot forward and thrust.

Lkie Paul said, there's alot of different ways of doing it.

cconstantine
12-05-2008, 01:42 PM
Also, the book says to slightly shift your weight to the rear just prior to the Shomenuchi.

I haven't read the book. But, I would agree with what you've mentioned. (I would not consider it as a primary point when teaching the material; but I can't tell how much emphasis the book places upon the point.)

What I find myself doing is 'kipping my hips forward and down' (after shifting my weight back prior) at the apex of the Shomenuchi (on the downstroke) and quickly shifting my weight forward( I spent alot of time behind an ax, pickaxe and railroad spike hammer), so that my back remains straight. Is this correct?

Yes, this sounds correct.

This would be a good time for me to point out, that it is much easier to learn this material from a live instructor, than from a book and a message forum. For example, I'll add that I have spent entire classes teaching just the 180 degree pivoting turn and the associated shomenuchi cut. There's a great deal of subtlety in happo undo, happo giri and the first kata. (Which is why I think they are wonderful to work on.)

cconstantine
12-05-2008, 01:56 PM
(caution: I am known for being very pragmatic. I'd rather be clear and concise, but I'll sacrifice being concise to be clear.)

This book (Aikido Weapons Techniques by our own Lynn Seiser, et al), which is from the Tenshinkai Aikido, says that, as a variation of the "8 direction cut" is right after a Komenuchi (right foot forward), chamber "omote" 90deg (to the left) making left foot way behind, then step left foot forward and thrust.

I would not consider what you are describing to be "happo giri" (8 direction cutting) -- in my understanding, happo giri has no tsuki, only shomenuchi. On the other hand, you're saying the book calls it a variation of happo giri -- so, I would certainly agree that including tsuki, or including such a stepping motion, would make it a variation on happo giri.

More generally: In my understanding, it

[it = turning left 90 degrees, moving the left foot rearward bringing you into RH, then taking a full step forward into LH and performing tsuki]

is not found anywhere in happo giri, nor in the first bokken kata.

GeneC
12-06-2008, 09:30 AM
This would be a good time for me to point out, that it is much easier to learn this material from a live instructor, than from a book and a message forum....

Oh yes, I am, but this is part of my 'homework'.

GeneC
12-06-2008, 09:54 AM
(caution: I am known for being very pragmatic. I'd rather be clear and concise, but I'll sacrifice being concise to be clear.)

That's OK, so am I, which is why it's important to disregard (or take into account) all the different "styles" names for a simple technique, altho it was pointed out that the book is showing weapons technique from the Tenshinkai Aikido ( I have noticed that the different styles have made difficult to discuss technique on this medium).
I'm not trying to find the name of the technique, I was just asking about the footwork on a 8 direction cut ( the book shows that the right foot is always forward for a Shomnuchi, but then when the 180deg pivot is performed, the left foot is forward. My Sensei told me to go ahead and take another step with the right foot and perform the Shomenuchi) and there seemed to be some confusion when I mentioned a variation to the basic '8' ( according to Tenshinkai), where one perfoms a Komenuchi, then immediately turns to the left 90deg (in pivoting ,it places the left foot forward); sliding the left foot way back behind you and simultaneously chambering the Tsuki; Then step forward with the left foot while thrusting the Tsuki. Then ( I presume), a 180 and another Shomenuchi, and so on.
Sorry for the confusion.

patf
12-09-2008, 11:35 AM
Does anyone have (a link or text) for bokken-kata #2 and/or jo-kata 1,2

Thanks

Walter Martindale
12-10-2008, 12:37 AM
Does anyone have (a link or text) for bokken-kata #2 and/or jo-kata 1,2

Thanks

I suspect that different schools have different kata...
W