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Demetrio Cereijo
11-30-2008, 10:03 AM
Yesterday a training partner pointed me to Nelson's (http://books.google.es/books?id=gtYHbyI9xPEC&dq=nelson+japanese+dictionary&client=firefox-a&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0) "The Original Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary: Classic Edition" (Tuttle Publishing, 2004 ISBN 0804819653, 9780804819657) entry about "kokyu".

In said entry kokyu is translated as: breath, respiration; knack, secret; tone, time; kokyu suru breathe.

(bold mine)

So he left me more confused as I usually am. If someone asks what i.e. kokyu nage means can I say it means "knack (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/knack) throw" or "secret throw" instead the usual "breath throw"?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Bob Blackburn
11-30-2008, 05:45 PM
Welcome to Japanese. :) Breath and respiration are the primary meanings. There are usually infrequently used meanings for many words.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-30-2008, 06:07 PM
But are those infrequently used meanings more or less appropiate than the usual one, in this case "breath"?. Was "breath throw" the chosen translation because breath is the more usual meaning of kokyu?

Anyway, I think I have to read this other thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8531) more carefully (note to self: use search function next time).

GeneC
11-30-2008, 07:27 PM
According to the produers of Keijutsukai Aikido, Kokyu has been incorrectly translated to mean breath.They say the more correct meaning of the Kanji symbols for Kokyu is to be in harmony with the powers of the Universe. So, a kokyu throw would be a power throw.

Chris Li
11-30-2008, 08:43 PM
According to the produers of Keijutsukai Aikido, Kokyu has been incorrectly translated to mean breath.They say the more correct meaning of the Kanji symbols for Kokyu is to be in harmony with the powers of the Universe. So, a kokyu throw would be a power throw.

Here's a copy of my post to the other Kokyu thread:

Sort of - "kokyu" means "breathing" (as in "respiration"), and saying that people's "breathing" "matches" is another way of saying that they get along well together (ie, they are "in harmony"). I wouldn't read too much into it, anymore than I would to the phrase "get along like a house on fire" .

Best,

Chris

GeneC
12-03-2008, 11:11 AM
So it says breath and matching ( being in harmony with) their breathing? Hmmm, not harmonious life force?

ChrisHein
12-03-2008, 05:36 PM
All of those things point to rhythm in my opinion, which is also what I would define Aiki to be all about.

It's often said when something is "knacky" that it takes a certain rhythm. Breathing is super rhythmic, time and tone are at the core of rhythm. I don't know about secret.... Maybe added by someone who doesn't understand rhythm (Ha).

In an interview by Meik Skoss of Sawada Hanae, in Koryu Bujutsu, Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. He asked her about aikido technique, she said: "When you speak of matching, if your kokyu, or breathing, does not match then you do not match. You are thinking merely of form, aren't you? But in order to do aiki, both your spirit and that of your partner must enter into play and then come together. When you study aiki, this is what you are studying."

Kokyu seems to be an integral part of Aiki(do) from this.

Stefan Stenudd
12-10-2008, 08:31 AM
So it says breath and matching ( being in harmony with) their breathing? Hmmm, not harmonious life force?
Well, the Japanese and Chinese ideas of the life force are so similar to breath that this might be kind of implied.

Erick Mead
12-10-2008, 09:39 AM
In an interview by Meik Skoss of Sawada Hanae, in Koryu Bujutsu, Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. He asked her about aikido technique, she said: "When you speak of matching, if your kokyu, or breathing, does not match then you do not match. You are thinking merely of form, aren't you? But in order to do aiki, both your spirit and that of your partner must enter into play and then come together. When you study aiki, this is what you are studying."

Kokyu seems to be an integral part of Aiki(do) from this. An excellent quote. I could not agree more. Since I just typed out where my thought is at present on ki and kokyu, interms very similar to hers, I won't belabor it, but simply cross-post:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=220823&postcount=21

GeneC
12-10-2008, 02:05 PM
Well, the Japanese and Chinese ideas of the life force are so similar to breath that this might be kind of implied.

Well, I prefer to understand it as more than simply breathing and the Kokyu throw more than just the "breath throw". To me it means being in harmony with life force energy. Like Lao Tsu said," All beings support Yin and embrace Yang and the interplay between these two forces fill the Universe. Yet, only at the still, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture these two in perfect harmony."
To me, that's Kokyu and that's where the outlet to Ki is. Now, I'll (gladly) spend the rest of my life realizing it.

Mike Sigman
12-10-2008, 03:46 PM
In an interview by Meik Skoss of Sawada Hanae, in Koryu Bujutsu, Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. He asked her about aikido technique, she said: "When you speak of matching, if your kokyu, or breathing, does not match then you do not match. You are thinking merely of form, aren't you? But in order to do aiki, both your spirit and that of your partner must enter into play and then come together. When you study aiki, this is what you are studying."

Kokyu seems to be an integral part of Aiki(do) from this.You know, I would be careful of quotes like this. I have mentioned this before a number of times, but the translations of a lot of westerners who don't really have kokyu/jin skills or understand exactly what is meant idiomatically by "ki" or words like "kokkoro" when they are used to indicate the intention-strength... those translations can be mis-leading.

In fact, pretty much the whole Chinese martial-arts world was shot in the foot for so long because of similar misunderstandings about "jin" and "energy", "qi" and "spirit", "breath", and so on. Not saying the translation is wrong, but I'd be very careful of it until I determined what the translator actually knew in terms of skills and so forth.

As we've witnessed in the last few years, there are a LOT of learned opinions by 'seniors' on simple ki/kokyu skills that have not panned out in terms of results/functional-ability. I.e., I'm saying be careful before you wander the graveyard of sayings looking for a headstone that agrees with your own perceptions. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

Aikibu
12-10-2008, 05:48 PM
Well, I prefer to understand it as more than simply breathing and the Kokyu throw more than just the "breath throw". To me it means being in harmony with life force energy. Like Lao Tsu said," All beings support Yin and embrace Yang and the interplay between these two forces fill the Universe. Yet, only at the still, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture these two in perfect harmony."
To me, that's Kokyu and that's where the outlet to Ki is. Now, I'll (gladly) spend the rest of my life realizing it.

Concur.

William Hazen

Mike Sigman
12-10-2008, 06:14 PM
To me it means being in harmony with life force energy.
That sounds really good, Clarence. Could you explain to us what it means? It sounds almost Zen.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

ChrisHein
12-11-2008, 10:11 AM
Mike,
Maybe you should look up Meik Skoss.
www.koryu.com

Mike Sigman
12-11-2008, 10:20 AM
Mike,
Maybe you should look up Meik Skoss.
www.koryu.comI know who Meik Skoss is. I can give you a number of names of experts who have written books and who "studied overseas" and so on, but we'd be getting into an "argument by authority" tangent. If you see something the Meik Skoss wrote that you agree with and which you think is pertinent to the discussion, why not state your reasoning, etc., instead of suggesting that people go "look up" someone?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Aikibu
12-11-2008, 10:22 AM
That sounds really good, Clarence. Could you explain to us what it means? It sounds almost Zen.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Why ask for an explaination when you already know???
Interesting...

William Hazen

Mike Sigman
12-11-2008, 11:19 AM
Why ask for an explaination when you already know???
Interesting...

William HazenBye, Jun. This is the passive-aggressive stuff that just gets old.

Mike Sigman

ChrisHein
12-11-2008, 05:26 PM
He's the guy who wrote/translated the quote I put in above. That's why I said you should look him up, you questioned his understanding.

Mike Sigman
12-11-2008, 06:45 PM
He's the guy who wrote/translated the quote I put in above. That's why I said you should look him up, you questioned his understanding.Chris, you and Meik Skoss are more than welcome to come on QiJin and give us the lowdown on internal strength, but the question still stands (and I'm off this thread and pretty much off the passive-aggressive-controlled AikiWeb, for that matter) ... I asked you functionally how it was pertinent to the discussion. If you look at my post, I caveated about Skoss and spoke in general terms. I've read Skoss' stuff, seen his videos, and I know people (experts) who know him personally. I have a good feeling for what he knows, but that STILL has nothing to do with the idea of using argument by authority as a way to argue a discussion. It's still wrong.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

C. David Henderson
12-12-2008, 05:22 AM
Mike,

Thanks for sticking around, even a bit.

Regards,

DH

Demetrio Cereijo
12-12-2008, 09:11 PM
Mike,

Thanks for sticking around, even a bit.

Regards,

DH

Seconded.

GeneC
12-20-2008, 11:18 AM
That sounds really good, Clarence. Could you explain to us what it means? It sounds almost ZenRegards,Mike Sigman

Sure, now I'm far from realizing it, my understanding is to be aware of the energy that's around us and when the "life force"energy is negative, we're aware of that and endeavor to find it's source and maybe change it (if possible) so that we're in a flow of positive energy. If we need for the energy to flow thru us (say, in the form of an explosive action), then according the Lao Tsu, "at the still point, between breathing in and breathing out, is Yin and Yang in perfect harmony" and I believe that we can summon that "life force " energy and have it flow thru us and manifest itself into that explosive action.

eyrie
12-21-2008, 04:02 PM
As much as I enjoy some of this vague, airy-fairy, "new-age" stuff, I don't think it'll get people very far...

Ron Tisdale
12-22-2008, 10:28 AM
As much as I enjoy some of this vague, airy-fairy, "new-age" stuff, I don't think it'll get people very far...

Huh, in fact, I'm sure it won't.

But the ones who actually seem to be able to DO keep getting blasted, so one wonders how long they will keep coming back. Oh Well...

Best,
Ron

aikilouis
12-22-2008, 03:42 PM
If Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Rob John, Toby Threadgill, George Ledyard or Ellis Amdur (and many others experienced and knowledgeable people within and outside aikido, of course) stopped sharing their findings because of the arrogance or the ignorance of some, this would be a terrible damage done to this community.

Some of us beginners follow closely what they offer, even if they are not very vocal, and are able to get past the occasional harsh judgements. After all, Morihei Ueshiba or Sokaku Takeda were not famous for being very diplomatic.

I don't want valuable exchange and information here in Aikiweb be replaced by "aikido is whatever you decide to do", "my sensei is more badass than yours" or other types of nonsense.

Aikibu
12-22-2008, 05:14 PM
I sure won't let personalities get in the way of principles especially if they're shared in a courteous manner and with an open mind towards others experiance.

By the way there are plenty of forums where IMA is the focal point of the discussion. :)

William Hazen

Peter Goldsbury
12-22-2008, 05:23 PM
Yesterday a training partner pointed me to Nelson's (http://books.google.es/books?id=gtYHbyI9xPEC&dq=nelson+japanese+dictionary&client=firefox-a&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0) "The Original Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary: Classic Edition" (Tuttle Publishing, 2004 ISBN 0804819653, 9780804819657) entry about "kokyu".

In said entry kokyu is translated as: breath, respiration; knack, secret; tone, time; kokyu suru breathe.

(bold mine)

So he left me more confused as I usually am. If someone asks what i.e. kokyu nage means can I say it means "knack (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/knack) throw" or "secret throw" instead the usual "breath throw"?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Hello Demetrio,

This edition of Nelson is the old edition. It was revised and updated in 1997. The ISBN of the new edition is 0-8048-2036-8.

In any case, if you can cope with a dictionary like Nelson, you might want to consider a general Japanese dictionary, not a dictionary of kanji. Nelson is simply a list of many Chinese characters, with the readings that have occurred. It is not a general Japanese dictionary.

If you use a dictionary like the Kojien or the Kenkyusha New Japanese English Dictionary, you will see that こきゅうhas three main meanings: (a) breath; (2) coordination, teamwork; (3) having the knack, or knowing how to do something. There are many examples given, so that you can see how the term is actually used in modern Japanese.

There are many compounds given, all of which have to do with breathing, but kokyu-nage is not one of them. However, you cannot simply combine any one of the meanings of kokyu given in Nelson with nage and assume that this is what it could mean. It has a more specialized use.

As another example, take irimi, as in irimi-nage. Irimi is a compound of two characters: 入 and 身, but you will not find the combination in Nelson or any other general dictionary. So, what do you do to find the meaning of the word? Do you choose one of the meanings of iri and combine it with one of the meanings of mi? If so, you can find some bizarre combinations (like setting [of the sun in] a container).

By the way, if you have access to the Kojien, the reference to kokyu is on p.933 and for the Kenkyusha dictionary, there is a long entry on pp. 960-961.

Best wishes,

Demetrio Cereijo
12-22-2008, 06:14 PM
Thank you very much, professor Golsbury.

Merry Christmas.

Adman
12-22-2008, 10:01 PM
By the way there are plenty of forums where IMA is the focal point of the discussion. :)

But isn't this thread titled "Kokyu"? ;)

Aikibu
12-22-2008, 11:05 PM
But isn't this thread titled "Kokyu"? ;)

Yup.---------->;)

William Hazen

C. David Henderson
12-23-2008, 09:08 AM
If Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Rob John, Toby Threadgill, George Ledyard or Ellis Amdur (and many others experienced and knowledgeable people within and outside aikido, of course) stopped sharing their findings because of the arrogance or the ignorance of some, this would be a terrible damage done to this community.

Some of us beginners follow closely what they offer, even if they are not very vocal, and are able to get past the occasional harsh judgements. After all, Morihei Ueshiba or Sokaku Takeda were not famous for being very diplomatic.

I don't want valuable exchange and information here in Aikiweb be replaced by "aikido is whatever you decide to do", "my sensei is more badass than yours" or other types of nonsense.

Thank you Ludwig, for making this point.

Regards,

DH

Phil Van Treese
04-21-2009, 02:19 PM
I speak a lot of languages but I don't speak Japanese. Phew, I wonder what I'd get if I went to a Japanese Restaurant and ordered an "Irimi Nage" over easy and my "Kokyu" medium rare??? hahaha