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Mike M
11-19-2008, 12:22 AM
Does Aikido teach how to defend yourself in tight quarters like an elevator?

Randy Sexton
11-19-2008, 12:40 AM
IMHO Aikido principles and techniques including real full power atemi work in any environment. Imagine what you could do in an elevator using your Aikido training in a life or death struggle. Imagine what Steven Seagal would do in that situation to stay alive and you get the idea.
By the way, my Aikido training and my training in Military Police tell me to always evaluate the situation before I get into the elevator and when to get out of the elevator when others get on it. ZANSHIN at its finest!

Doc :cool:

Mark Stokmans
11-19-2008, 02:28 AM
Steven Seagal would have a hard time in an elevator because he wouldnt have a glass window to throw somebody through. :uch: In Willy Wonka's elevator he would kick ass though.:D

Seriously though. I once had a minor altercation with a drunken judoka in an elevator. He was somebody I new and generally could get along with. He got a bit belligerent and tried to get me in a head lock. I was able to get hold of his wrist and apply kote gaeshi. It worked.

I guess atemi, getting a lock in, getting somebody down and then generally sitting on him untill the doors open so you can make a break is the best way to go. The most Aikido I could get out of it anyway.

Tony Wagstaffe
11-19-2008, 04:22 AM
IMHO Aikido principles and techniques including real full power atemi work in any environment. Imagine what you could do in an elevator using your Aikido training in a life or death struggle. Imagine what Steven Seagal would do in that situation to stay alive and you get the idea.
By the way, my Aikido training and my training in Military Police tell me to always evaluate the situation before I get into the elevator and when to get out of the elevator when others get on it. ZANSHIN at its finest!

Doc :cool:

Seagal would have trouble getting into the elevator due to his rather large ego...... I tend to use the stairs if the floor of the building is'nt at the top floor of a 100 storey building!!
Hee hee!
Ever tried aikido in a latrine?? that's fun.......

Tony Wagstaffe
11-19-2008, 04:32 AM
Steven Seagal would have a hard time in an elevator because he wouldnt have a glass window to throw somebody through. :uch: In Willy Wonka's elevator he would kick ass though.:D

Seriously though. I once had a minor altercation with a drunken judoka in an elevator. He was somebody I new and generally could get along with. He got a bit belligerent and tried to get me in a head lock. I was able to get hold of his wrist and apply kote gaeshi. It worked.

I guess atemi, getting a lock in, getting somebody down and then generally sitting on him untill the doors open so you can make a break is the best way to go. The most Aikido I could get out of it anyway.

Personally I have found that when someone manages to get you in an effective headlock it can only be released if one grabs the testicles of ones assailant and twists violently........

Enrique Antonio Reyes
11-19-2008, 06:55 AM
Personally I have found that when someone manages to get you in an effective headlock it can only be released if one grabs the testicles of ones assailant and twists violently........

Aaargh to that...I mean Amen to that!:hypno:

Nick P.
11-19-2008, 07:10 AM
Personally I have found that when someone manages to get you in an effective headlock it can only be released if one grabs the testicles of ones assailant and twists violently........

Unless it's your sister applying the headlock....or your mom. :eek:

phitruong
11-19-2008, 08:55 AM
Does Aikido teach how to defend yourself in tight quarters like an elevator?

don't know about aikido, but the systema folks have interesting approaches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YPrnB-OSBA some of the moves similar to various aikido moves like sokomen-irimi or kaiten and so on. I like the car thing too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1ckXOkyLSk would not want to try the bag over the head thing, but it looks fun. :crazy:

wonder if they have anything for plane, train and automobile. :D

Tony Wagstaffe
11-19-2008, 10:52 AM
Unless it's your sister applying the headlock....or your mom. :eek:

then I would tickle them!!!!! hah hahah hee heee !!
Awww stop it!!

Dan Rubin
11-19-2008, 11:08 AM
Personally I have found that when someone manages to get you in an effective headlock it can only be released if one grabs the testicles of ones assailant and twists violently........

But if true victory is victory over oneself, wouldn't you have to twist your own testicles?

Perhaps I should start a new thread.:D

jennifer paige smith
11-19-2008, 11:17 AM
I got smashed into a newspaper machine by four rowdy young men on a tight street corner one afternoon.

Hmmm, I wonder if they're still reminiscing dreamily about a quaint fall day some years ago when a girl in a peach colored t-shirt handed them their asses wrapped in a bow.

Or maybe they caught a wiff of the big word Aikido printed across the front of my t-shirt and joined systema to learn to beat those brutal aikido people.....hmmmmm.

jennifer paige smith
11-19-2008, 11:22 AM
Perhaps I should start a new thread.:D

Or you could just keep pulling at this one and see how it unravels:D .
Funny stuff.

SeiserL
11-19-2008, 11:55 AM
Does Aikido teach how to defend yourself in tight quarters like an elevator?
Sure.
Limit yourself to one tatami and figure it out.
Dye Sensei has a nice package on it.

Flintstone
11-19-2008, 11:56 AM
Personally I have found that when someone manages to get you in an effective headlock it can only be released if one grabs the testicles of ones assailant and twists violently........
Great! Testicle Gaeshi! :D

DonMagee
11-19-2008, 12:19 PM
Personally I have found that when someone manages to get you in an effective headlock it can only be released if one grabs the testicles of ones assailant and twists violently........

Nah, it just tells me the person knows nothing at all about fighting. A headlock is next to pointless. Depending on if I am facing the same direction or the opposite direction I have many escapes ranging from painless to serious injury. I would go painless because a headlock is not a serious threat, but rather a silly highschool prank.

Mark Stokmans
11-19-2008, 12:47 PM
A headlock is next to pointless Perhaps it is my choice of words...perhaps I should have used the word choke-hold (shime-waza). If a Judoka manages to get you there, and applies pressure, then you will probably pass-out within a number of seconds. Quite to the point actually. Needless to say I did not wait for that to happen. So in came kote gaeshi. And Judoka don't have the most flexible wrists so the choice was a wise one.

Tony Wagstaffe
11-19-2008, 07:07 PM
But if true victory is victory over oneself, wouldn't you have to twist your own testicles?

Perhaps I should start a new thread.:D
Not if I can help it!!
Next time some one is squeezing or has squeezed your brains out let me know.......:D

wideawakedreamer
11-19-2008, 10:57 PM
I like the car thing too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1ckXOkyLSk would not want to try the bag over the head thing, but it looks fun. :crazy:

wonder if they have anything for plane, train and automobile. :D

It looked like he got slashed at 0:13. And why let someone sneak up behind you in the first place? Not claiming any firsthand experience here, but I think looking around/checking one's surroundings makes for a better strategy.

Tony Wagstaffe
11-20-2008, 03:28 AM
Nah, it just tells me the person knows nothing at all about fighting. A headlock is next to pointless. Depending on if I am facing the same direction or the opposite direction I have many escapes ranging from painless to serious injury. I would go painless because a headlock is not a serious threat, but rather a silly highschool prank.

Simple headlock and as you say school boy prank, but not if it is applied as kubi jime and with real intention as I think the original poster really meant......
Shades of Gene Labelle and a certain Steven whatsis name?
:D :o :D

Tony Wagstaffe
11-20-2008, 03:30 AM
Sure.
Limit yourself to one tatami and figure it out.
Dye Sensei has a nice package on it.

Nice one Lynn

Regards Tony

Kevin Leavitt
11-20-2008, 06:16 AM
To me, it is not an issue of "aikido", it is an issue of situational training. Have you practiced under those conditions? If you are asking the question, then I assume the answer is no, otherwise you would already have answered your own question because you had trained in a phone booth, or an approximation of one!

The difference is not the aikido, but the conditions imposed by the environment that determine how it will work.

You've simply got to train with those constraints and factors in place if it is important to you.

Aikido, as taught by most is designed to teach principles, which are universal. Though they are universal principles, that will work in most every situation, that does not mean that you can simply walk into any situation and apply them yourself!

Prinicples are universal, but the CONDITIONS in which you apply them aren't!

Therefore you must go out and keep adjusting those conditions in order to really understand practical application (if this is important to you).

Some (i'd say most) are happy simply studying the prinicples of aikido. Some of us are also concerned with application in various types of scenarios.

For the latter, there is no substitute for actually training under that pressure with those conditions imposed.

DonMagee
11-20-2008, 07:46 AM
Simple headlock and as you say school boy prank, but not if it is applied as kubi jime and with real intention as I think the original poster really meant......
Shades of Gene Labelle and a certain Steven whatsis name?
:D :o :D

I was just being a nit picker. A head lock is a arm wrapped around your skull that is squeezing it. This is annoying at best, mildly painful at best.

What you are talking about is what bjj players would call a standing guillotine choke or as you pointed out it could be called kubi jime. Honestly, if I had someone in that position and they started reaching for my boys, i would either a) pull guard and finish the choke then play river dance on their face, or b) start kneeing them in the chest repeatedly until they stopped trying to grab my boys.

At least in the two instances where this happened those were the approaches I took (minus the riverdance).

The best way to approach t his would be to defend the choke first, then escape. So you need to break the posture of the person choking you (assuming you already failed at stopping him from securing the choke with something like a sankyu, strike, throw or kotageshi). the easiest way to do this is to reach over his back pull him down while pushing on his knee with your other hand. Now that you are safe from the choke (and your hand is on his knee to help stop you from being kneed into unconsciousness, you can now start to worry about how to escape. But that is a different project altogether.

The attack to the groin might work, or it might just tick off the person choking you into oblivion...and THAT is a bad bad thing to do. It's much better to defend the problem, then escape. It's even better to defend before the problem even exists and never get put in the choke in the first place...but you can't always control what happens :-)

Tony Wagstaffe
11-20-2008, 03:05 PM
I was just being a nit picker. A head lock is a arm wrapped around your skull that is squeezing it. This is annoying at best, mildly painful at best.

What you are talking about is what bjj players would call a standing guillotine choke or as you pointed out it could be called kubi jime. Honestly, if I had someone in that position and they started reaching for my boys, i would either a) pull guard and finish the choke then play river dance on their face, or b) start kneeing them in the chest repeatedly until they stopped trying to grab my boys.

At least in the two instances where this happened those were the approaches I took (minus the riverdance).

The best way to approach t his would be to defend the choke first, then escape. So you need to break the posture of the person choking you (assuming you already failed at stopping him from securing the choke with something like a sankyu, strike, throw or kotageshi). the easiest way to do this is to reach over his back pull him down while pushing on his knee with your other hand. Now that you are safe from the choke (and your hand is on his knee to help stop you from being kneed into unconsciousness, you can now start to worry about how to escape. But that is a different project altogether.

The attack to the groin might work, or it might just tick off the person choking you into oblivion...and THAT is a bad bad thing to do. It's much better to defend the problem, then escape. It's even better to defend before the problem even exists and never get put in the choke in the first place...but you can't always control what happens :-)

Worked for me in a real situ not in the dojo....... I am talking about a real life scenario when there was more than one assailant...... Its rough as a cabbie in this country when you have to deal with drunken people on illegal substances and the like.... but ya have to earn a living ...... violence is a growing problem here on cabbies as they are easy targets.... unfortunately..... But then I think you are talking about a dojo situation on one on one sport where it wouldn't be "cricket"
No rules in the street I'm afraid!!

Shane Marcum
11-20-2008, 03:18 PM
Great! Testicle Gaeshi! :D

In law enforcement circles the politically correct term I use for that type of "restraining technique" is the Testicular Angle. :hypno: It is a variation of the very common Mandibular Angle whis is directly under the ear. Just kidding, of course, but damn if they both don't hurt!

DonMagee
11-20-2008, 04:37 PM
Worked for me in a real situ not in the dojo....... I am talking about a real life scenario when there was more than one assailant...... Its rough as a cabbie in this country when you have to deal with drunken people on illegal substances and the like.... but ya have to earn a living ...... violence is a growing problem here on cabbies as they are easy targets.... unfortunately..... But then I think you are talking about a dojo situation on one on one sport where it wouldn't be "cricket"
No rules in the street I'm afraid!!

No, I was talking about a no rules situation. You are simply just lucky your attacker was worried more about his nuts and couldn't keep his cool. A trained attacker would of kept his cool and choked you unconscious while defending his groin (which is fairly easy to do if you give it a shot). But luck is as good as technique in my book.

I have people try to test this stuff from time to time. It never ends how they expect and it really is disheartening for me.

gregstec
11-20-2008, 06:25 PM
Does Aikido teach how to defend yourself in tight quarters like an elevator?

Depends on your version Aikido - go back to the Daitoryu roots of Aikido and just use small techniques and drop Uke instead of throwing; I know a handful of techniques that would work very well within the confines of even the smallest elevators.

Greg Steckel

Tony Wagstaffe
11-20-2008, 09:04 PM
No, I was talking about a no rules situation. You are simply just lucky your attacker was worried more about his nuts and couldn't keep his cool. A trained attacker would of kept his cool and choked you unconscious while defending his groin (which is fairly easy to do if you give it a shot). But luck is as good as technique in my book.

I have people try to test this stuff from time to time. It never ends how they expect and it really is disheartening for me.

A trained attacker would have choked from the rear but before doing so would unbalance one from behind before applying the choke as I have found to be effective on many occasions..... taking balance disables the victim from gaining any real purchase if executed by taking the head backwards and slipping into a rear neck choke swiftly...... In the case I encountered the head chancery was applied from their right side which facilitated easy access, for me, to their groin area followed up with what we call gyaku gamae/gedan ate which can facilitate easy dumping flat on their back with quite an audible thump when hitting the deck (concrete pavement /sidewalk) that hard!!..... no problem for a reasonably skilled martial artist...... not forgetting there was two assailants, required quick thinking and of course a little luck on my part...... same as for most.... given most nasty situations..... moral of the story is try and avoid getting grabbed into a neck or head lock!! Not as easy as it sounds when you are getting someone's change for them!! ya can't always tell unless you are telepathic!!
Take Care

Tony

DonMagee
11-20-2008, 09:26 PM
A trained attacker would have choked from the rear but before doing so would unbalance one from behind before applying the choke as I have found to be effective on many occasions..... taking balance disables the victim from gaining any real purchase if executed by taking the head backwards and slipping into a rear neck choke swiftly...... In the case I encountered the head chancery was applied from their right side which facilitated easy access, for me, to their groin area followed up with what we call gyaku gamae/gedan ate which can facilitate easy dumping flat on their back with quite an audible thump when hitting the deck (concrete pavement /sidewalk) that hard!!..... no problem for a reasonably skilled martial artist...... not forgetting there was two assailants, required quick thinking and of course a little luck on my part...... same as for most.... given most nasty situations..... moral of the story is try and avoid getting grabbed into a neck or head lock!! Not as easy as it sounds when you are getting someone's change for them!! ya can't always tell unless you are telepathic!!
Take Care

Tony

Ahh here is where we had our communication lines crossed. I was talking about chokes, you are talking about side headlocks. Yea, no reasonable trained attacker will do a side headlock. It's a pointless and vulnerable position. I was talking about either a choke from head on (the guillotine choke). In that position, while you have full access to the groin it doesn't do you any good because in a second or two it's all over for you anways.

Tony Wagstaffe
11-21-2008, 05:28 AM
Ahh here is where we had our communication lines crossed. I was talking about chokes, you are talking about side headlocks. Yea, no reasonable trained attacker will do a side headlock. It's a pointless and vulnerable position. I was talking about either a choke from head on (the guillotine choke). In that position, while you have full access to the groin it doesn't do you any good because in a second or two it's all over for you anways.

Well Don he was using my head as a punch ball so it takes willpower not to go down as most would from this type of scenario.... but then again my head is used to punishment from my boxing days which sadly are over for me at 55 yrs..... think he was quite shocked that an older feller dumped him so easily on his butt........ as his buddy did a runner!!! Thought I was easy pickings you see......

Tony

Nathan Wallace
11-21-2008, 09:53 AM
never tried in an elevator. i usually use the stairs. i have tried in the shower though. i would say stick to kokyu and irimi not so much tenkan. at least it didn't work out so well for me. LOL