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numazu
11-01-2008, 07:14 AM
Just wondering what people think. What is the closest form of Aikido to Daito Ryu Aikijujustu. I have heard some claims that shodokan or tomiki is the closest but looking at their style I am not so sure about that. Any thoughts?

Don_Modesto
11-01-2008, 01:40 PM
When you say "which aikido," you also have to say "which DR."

Ron Tisdale
11-01-2008, 06:20 PM
Don is correct.

It also depends on which subset of which aikido...

Mochizuki Sensei had what in many ways could be considered to be the closest form...originally. But what is practiced now is a bit different in most dojo.

Same could be said of Yoshinkan...which is fairly close in some lines to the Mainline tradition. But not very similar at all to the Roppokai (from the small amount I know about it).

It is interesting for me to look at all the different branches of both arts. The wider the exposure, the more information you have on which to base opinions.

Best,
Ron (but that is true of most things...)

numazu
11-05-2008, 06:13 AM
I don't really know which kind of Daito Ryu Aiki to be honest. I was just looking at the following web site of a place not far from where I used to live in Japan.Here it is: http://www.daito-ryu.org/history5_eng.html
I was trying to hunt down a Jujitsu place and I have to be honest Jujitsu is basically dead in Japan and this is probably one of the few surviving branches of any kind of Jujitsu left before Aikido took off so well. I have watched quite a few Daito Ryu You Tube clips from Japan and it is quite different to Aikido, I feel it's line and more use of throws and even extended knuckle punches.
I get the feeling Yoshinkan would maybe be the closest you could get to this style but in my city here there is a Shodokan dojo that claims it has the closest roots to Daito Ryu (could be quite an open claim).
Not so important at the end of the day but just got me interested.
Interesting in Japan how the introduction of Judo really did destroy Jujitsu. It's popularity as a sport just burried the old methods. All sorts of arguments as to why that was.

Charles Hill
11-05-2008, 07:18 AM
Hi Alastair,

With your username being Numazu, is it correct to say you lived in Numazu? I see from your link that there is a Daito ryu group in Numazu. I live in Mishima and run a Systema group here. We had a visitor a few months ago from Shimizu who said he did Daito ryu and was about to test for shodan. I think he was not used to getting punched and indeed has not come back so I am not sure about the knuckle punches.

Charles

phitruong
11-05-2008, 07:38 AM
I think he was not used to getting punched and indeed has not come back so I am not sure about the knuckle punches.

Charles

getting punched by systema folks is not something most folks can get "used to". of course, unless you are one of them crazy systema buggers. we like 'em and look forward to the next round. ya, hit me again and try not to touch my liver, because I need it to process some alcohol! :)

NagaBaba
11-05-2008, 08:50 AM
I don't really know which kind of Daito Ryu Aiki to be honest. .
Simply forget Daito ryu. This art is dead and belongs to the past. In fact, by creating aikido O sensei cut himself from the spirit of 'old Japan'. You don't want to live under militaristic right wing dictators, do you? Aikido is an art adapted to the present world, not only technically, but also it develops a spiritual approach that corresponds with very progressive ideas of new humanistic civilization.

Buck
11-05-2008, 11:38 AM
Simply forget Daito ryu. This art is dead and belongs to the past. In fact, by creating aikido O sensei cut himself from the spirit of 'old Japan'. You don't want to live under militaristic right wing dictators, do you? Aikido is an art adapted to the present world, not only technically, but also it develops a spiritual approach that corresponds with very progressive ideas of new humanistic civilization.

I agree to a point, I am not so liberal with my agreement because I think O'Sensei didn't cut himself off completely rather culled out what he thought where the oppressive and other toxic stuff that would have kept Japan moving forward and into the modern world. He wasn't alone in that progressive movement.

And in another thread, I mentioned that Aikido overall bring in to the array of weaponry the stun gun as a technique. We are as Aikidokas still stuck in the past in allot of ways. Who goes with out shoes barefoot, so why do we train barefoot. A dogi etc. are all out dated etc. So I think Aikido is caught between the past and present and looking at Daito ryu technically can be helpful as roots are concerned (according to others) sure, but have to agree that it is a step backward. I don't see though anything wrong with looking in the review mirror either.

I don't think it would hurt to look at Daito ryu if you want a better understanding of a part of Aikido. But comparison of the two and which Aikido is closest to Daito ryu I would think would have to from someone who really knew there stuff, I'd bet there are not too many of those people out there. But it isn't bad to hear what others think.

Timothy WK
11-05-2008, 12:49 PM
If I may flip this question around----interestingly, in a discussion of "prewar" Aikido, Ellis Amdur argued that the best representation of Ueshiba's technique was not to be found in any form of modern Aikido, but rather Takuma-kai Daito-ryu.

And as for Kisshomaru, Tomiki and Shioda, all of them put their own stamp on what they learned prewar. Otherwise, they'd look pretty much the same and they don't.
Actually, it's pretty simply. Prewar "aikido" is almost surely most accurately preserved in the Takumakai. The vast bulk of their material is preserved religiously from Ueshiba, with appr. 30%, as I recall, from Takeda Sokaku. And I also recall Hisa grumbling that after awhile, Takeda was repeating himself...

Simply, what organization learned from Osensei prewar - is in the ONLY film of Osensei prewar, and has made a point of trying, through the Soden (everything photographed) to retain things as completely as possible? Takumakai

Don_Modesto
11-05-2008, 01:39 PM
Simply forget Daito ryu. This art is dead and belongs to the past. In fact, by creating aikido O sensei cut himself from the spirit of 'old Japan'. You don't want to live under militaristic right wing dictators, do you? Aikido is an art adapted to the present world, not only technically, but also it develops a spiritual approach that corresponds with very progressive ideas of new humanistic civilization.Wow. Really funny reasoning given that Osensei was a proud comrade of just those would-be militaristic right wing dictators...

Usually agree with Szc... but can't here. As Bashoo admonished, don't seek to be like the great men of the past; seek what they sought.

Beyond pretension and sanctimony, what "spirituality" is there really in aikido. Good intentions I'll grant. But who comes close to the dedication of Osensei or his cousin?

FWIW, I've trained under Kondo and his people and found that their methods really helped my aikido. If they were in my neighborhood, I'd go for it.

numazu
11-05-2008, 07:16 PM
Simply forget Daito ryu. This art is dead and belongs to the past. In fact, by creating aikido O sensei cut himself from the spirit of 'old Japan'. You don't want to live under militaristic right wing dictators, do you? Aikido is an art adapted to the present world, not only technically, but also it develops a spiritual approach that corresponds with very progressive ideas of new humanistic civilization.

I disagree here. There is nothing especially right wing about any form of Jujitsu whether it be DAito Ryu or otherwise. Daito Ryu was practised and at it's peak during a 400 year reign of peace in Japan during the Tokugawa shoganate. If someone practiced Systema or Krav Maga or Navy Seal Jujitsu does that mean they are preaching right wing systems? They are all military derived.

It is worth studying the old forms because that is the essence of many arts. We all need to get out of the "yeah but does it work on the street or in MMA?" type mentality because that thinking essentially waters down many arts and then you end up with terrible instructors with their brand of "One hung low Karate Do".

oisin bourke
11-05-2008, 07:17 PM
"Simply forget Daito ryu. This art is dead and belongs to the past. In fact, by creating aikido O sensei cut himself from the spirit of 'old Japan'. You don't want to live under militaristic right wing dictators, do you?"

This idea that traditional Japanese martial arts equals
military rightwing dictatorship a la Meji, Taisho and Showa period is completely wrong.

If anything, Kobudo is/was far too sectarian to be of much use to
federal authorities. Modern martial arts such as Kendo, Karate and Aikido helped promote sacrifice for the national interest much more effectively.

numazu
11-05-2008, 07:28 PM
Hi Charles. I noted that you are in Mishima. Lovely town.
I looked into Systema a bit but sadly there is nothing in my city. Because they dont have belts and gradings etc how do you get to become an instructor? (no offense intended, I am sure you are a good instructor - just interested).
With the DAito Ryu the extended knuckle punch is like a pheonix eye punch in Kung Fu. It is more of a distraction for a follow up because the extended knuckle is driven between the ribs. Quite painful so it cant be practiced with any contact (unlike Kyokushin karate). Therefore you are right, that student may not have been able to take a punch. Tell me more about your Systema. I may return to Numazu before long.

Charles Hill
11-06-2008, 05:02 AM
Hi Alastair,

Check your pm.

Charles

Ron Tisdale
11-06-2008, 08:32 AM
Wow...sorry Mr. S., but I disagree completely.

Best,
Ron

salim
11-14-2008, 09:34 PM
Here's a video clip of what many refer as Aikido that is closest to Aikijujitsu.

http://www.duman6.gen.tr/izle.php?video=l6Y3WZuUtVo

Aikibu
11-15-2008, 02:25 PM
Good Clip except for the elevator music. LOL Imagine going to a seminar and hearing that just before you were do Ukemi for Sensei. You KNOW you're in for a butt kicking then. :D

I would think Iwama and other weapons based flavors of Aikido would also be close in spirit and style to Daito Ryu.

William Hazen

salim
11-15-2008, 02:52 PM
Yeah I agree. LOL, the music is awful. I think this comes from Stanley Pranin (aikidojournal) and his music selection for video clips.

siwilson
11-17-2008, 03:44 AM
Simply forget Daito ryu. This art is dead and belongs to the past. In fact, by creating aikido O sensei cut himself from the spirit of 'old Japan'. You don't want to live under militaristic right wing dictators, do you? Aikido is an art adapted to the present world, not only technically, but also it develops a spiritual approach that corresponds with very progressive ideas of new humanistic civilization.

What an odd satement Szczepan!

As for Ueshiba - I find him a bit odd, like he went a bit mad later in life - not taking anything away from him, he created something amazing! (Or did he - let's not go there! :freaky: )

As other's have said, what is spirital about Aikido? It is, after all, only physics.

As for good intenions - agreed - but don't most go that way when they become a Granddad? :)

As for my experience, the most similar (IMO) I have trained is that of Terada Hanshi - Seiseikai.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.seiseikai.org/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dseiseikai%26hl%3Den

Also, what about Shinkendo?

Stanley Archacki
11-17-2008, 11:26 AM
Simply forget Daito ryu. This art is dead and belongs to the past. In fact, by creating aikido O sensei cut himself from the spirit of 'old Japan'. You don't want to live under militaristic right wing dictators, do you? Aikido is an art adapted to the present world, not only technically, but also it develops a spiritual approach that corresponds with very progressive ideas of new humanistic civilization.

The idea that progress is either inevitable, or always good, should not be assumed.

Some believe, and have believed for thousands of years in many cultures, that the "old ways", what is time-tested, should take precedence over unproven fads.

I am NOT saying that Aikido is an unproven fad. So don't even go there.

Just don't assume new=good, old=bad. This is a path of folly.

Stanley

siwilson
11-17-2008, 12:12 PM
TRUE!

Ueshiba may very well have gone mad! Espeially if you watch videos of him in later life! I tend to mention a video of him with the JO in which he is just waving it around, which leads me to say, "Is there a fly in the room?"

:) :freaky: :D :crazy: :yuck:

L. Camejo
12-06-2008, 12:31 PM
Just wondering what people think. What is the closest form of Aikido to Daito Ryu Aikijujustu. I have heard some claims that shodokan or tomiki is the closest but looking at their style I am not so sure about that. Any thoughts?I'm not sure about how close Shodokan might look to Daito Ryu, but the "Aikido" that Tomiki learned from Ueshiba between 1925 and 1940 was Daito Ryu as passed on by Ueshiba M. In fact the word "Aikido" was not even used to describe what was being taught during Tomiki's earlier training days.

However, Tomiki continued his budo research and developed those teachings into what became Shodokan Aikido. This was based on his Daito Ryu training with Ueshiba M. but Jigoro Kano's approach to Judo was also very influential in Tomiki's development of Shodokan Aikido.

Just my 2 cents.
LC