aikido vs MMA figther

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[Douglas Fajardo]

Hi , I was talking with some friends about MMA and suddenly someone made me an interesting question ,
How can you be so sure that your Aikido is so good to defend your self if your enemy practce MMA ,how can you be so sure if any one of you can´t figth because is not alow in the Dojo,
when you practice in your dojo you can do anything with Uke but just image wthat is figthing Thiago Alves ,will you apply Kickboxing ,sanda, jui jutsu mix whit Aikido .. or just Aikido ,
I answer my question what about you?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Well you can never really be sure about anything. Every dog has his day.

There are many of us that practice both Traditional AIkido and MMA styles here on Aikiweb.

There are many good threads if you search on Aikido, real fight, and "does it work".

It is a complicated and very diverse subject area and one of the most popular topics here on Aikiweb.

IMO, the bottomline is that if you are interested in learning how to fight. The only way to really do that is to approximate the conditions and such as close as possible when you train. "Train as you fight".

[Aikibu]

I am an experienced Aikidoka with over 3 Decades in the Martial Arts...

I am also (on November 11th) 48 years old and I would bet the 26 year old Thiago Alves would clean my clock though if I got lucky I could last a round with him before my arms and head fell off due to complete exhaustion. In my opinion pound for pound Alves is one of the best up and coming MMA fighters on the planet. At the very least he is made of steel and hits HARD!

Me I am just a regular old Joe with a decent Aikido Practice. :)

Somethings just don't bear comparison my friend

We FAG's (Former Action Guys) have a running joke about Ninja's versus Viking's and who is better...

Everyone can agree that CHUCK NORRIS is. :D

Hopefully you'll see my point. :)

William Hazen

[Douglas Fajardo]

Thanks , wise is your answer , that´s why you train and study Aikido( both of you)

[Buck]

I'd apply a stun gun the Aikido way..blend, harmonize and ZAPP! I am an Aikidoka who thinking out side ring.

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

Thanks , wise is your answer , that´s why you train and study Aikido( both of you)

Hey, Jun, can I make a Yoda joke without being banned?

How about implicitly? :(

[observer]

I answer my question what about you?
If you are still studying aikido, the answer is - no. If you already forgot aikido there is a chance. Just trust yourself. Your body will react properly to any threat.

[Buck]

Oh yea, did mention a stun gun? How bout a Taser? Just thinking outside the box...err...ring.

The best thing is to get those stun guns that don't look like stun guns. Then at the right moment of the perfect maai happens, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZAPPP!
Then when his floor dancing is done, throw a pin on him, an Aikido one. It doesn't require your whole body to do it, like MMA.

Booya, he's been owned!

[Niccolo Gallio]

Would the OP accept a fight with this Thiago Alves?

[ChrisHein]

That is an interesting question, I wonder if anyone else has ever asked it.

[gregg block]

Do people often come up against these awesome MMA fighters like Thiago Alves on the street? It would seem so as often as posts like this come up.
Look, I'll answer your question like this. Many of us who presently train in Aikido have a background in other martial arts so in that sense many of us have an MMA background. I feel quite certain of my ability to defend myself if I need to, but the truth of the matter is there are no guarantees in combat because there are too many unpredictable variables. What this means to me is that training increases your probability of success in defending yourself but does not guarantee it . So there is a possibility you could beat Thiago Alves on the street just like there is a possibility a complete novice with no experience could kick your ass.
Thinking that training in any style or styles guarantees success is to dismiss the unpredictability of true combat. This is why in the end there is really no answer to your question, nor will there be an answer in the relatively short period of time when it gets asked again as it has been so many times before on this forum

[Buck]

Gregg,

Didn't you know, that is the whole point of all these countless threads like this one going up against a pro MMA fighter in the ring/octagon and who will win! In these things you can't be matched with your almighty weekend internet MMAer, say in the street. And MMer's never talk about the street or the weapon variable. It has to be in the "ring" ending up on the ground against a pro. A MMA pro that 99.99% of all MMAers will never go up against a pro MMA fighter themselves under the same circumstances, and if they did they would lose miserably. That is the whole catch, you hit the nail on head. So what ever the talk is, it boils then down to it takes a pro MMA fighter to go up against the average Aikidoka in a venue for MMA fighters. :D

What I can't figure out why it is so important. I don't live my life by hormone laden sport cockfights. Like most who watch a MMA pro-fight it is very entertaining, but I don't live vicariously like some. I still want to see a MMer fight against a Jon Woo double stun gun fight. :)

[Mark Uttech]

Onegaishimasu. Someone who truly studies aikido will continue to practice, showing up at the dojo, attending seminars and camps, and generally paying attention. Those of us who study aikido have our questions, and we practice with those questions
.In my own opinion, MMA is a fad and a fashion and also a distraction. I am grateful that my own study of aikido and buddhism knows enough to "keep going."

In gassho,

Mark

[Ketsan]

I can beat anyone if we fight on my terms and when I can't fight on my terms I run away.:D

When people fight on my terms I win quickly and easily, not because my Aikido is any good but because they never had a chance in the first place.

:D

[Buck]

Gregg,

you come up with a good point of unpredictable variables. In a ring these unpredictable variables are reduced to almost nill where fighters fight within a defined narrow scope of predictability. That is enhanced evenmore as each fighter has the opportunity to scope out the other's fighting strength and weakness. A predicability then is even stronger in the fight where variables are reduce to a handful of predictable moves and maneuvers in the ring.

Variables are not welcomed in MMA ring. Variables do exist but are limited and subjective under the rules. Rules also reduce greatly the variables. Just like matching up fighter weights, ages, rankings and their fighting preferences if not all then in part.

MMA fighters are narrowly trained for the ring under rules, conditions that insure variables are slim, controlled and predictable. Unlike the street. If you can say anything about Aikido, it does (or should) train for the unknown, the unpredictable variables.

Alex you shouldn't let out any of your secrets. :eek:

[Kevin Leavitt]

Phillip Wrote:

MMA fighters are narrowly trained for the ring under rules, conditions that insure variables are slim, controlled and predictable. Unlike the street. If you can say anything about Aikido, it does (or should) train for the unknown, the unpredictable variables.

These are assumptions. In my experiences, MMA fighters (as you call them) are no more narrowly trained than anyone else. In fact, less narrowly trained.

Aikido should train for the "unknown"?

Maybe, maybe not. Aikido, IMO, should train for the tenants and philosophy of aikido. Those things are known and aikido, as trained in most dojos actually does a fairly good job of training students for those "known factors".

The situations that you define as "unknown" are actually identifiable as "known". RBSD scenarios can be designed to approximate the situations and variables in a controlled manner that one might most likely face.

One can then develop "strategies" for dealing with those situations. Most of these strategies are based on "high percentage" success, martial efficiency, and take advantage of natural reactions (startle/flinch).

This type of training, while indeed martially related to aikido, IMO, has very little to do with the overall methodology of aikido, which is about the concept of Budo.

Budo takes a more holistic and longer range focus on development that considers the improvement of the person physically, mentally, and spiritually.

I wish it were as simple as boiling things down to particular styles, rules, and situations, but unfortunately (or fortunately) conflict, life, and budo are simply not that easy.

My comments also tend to run the same line as Alex's. I can beat anyone if I get to choose the time, place, and conditions of the fight. Military and fighting strategy is really all about that!

That said, most of us, if involved in conflict don't get to choose all those things. We must then fall back on our past experiences to reach for some degree of skillfullness to bring forward and deal with whatever is thrown at us.

Outcomes depend on many things. There are many ways to "win" as well. Physcially dying or being severally physically injured may not be the worst thing that can actually happen to you. Living a life well lived and in balance can be very important.

IMO, this is what is most important in our studies...this is the goal of budo. Some call it training for "preparing to die a good death".

I think that focus is the right one and why we need to train. If we do it right, we cannot really loose...no matter what the outcome of the "fight" might be.

[Aikibu]

Double or nothing this thread goes to over a hundred posts. :)

William Hazen

[Buck]

I 'm not taking that bet. If I answer Kevin it will go over a hundred :)

[Buck]

Kevin when did MMA become a budo, and when did MMA drop its rules?


two posts worth?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Budo is a philosophy or a way of life. The way of the warrior.

It is not owned by anyone or any style. IMO, it can be inclusive of "MMA".

Agreed William, I am betting this will go over a 100.

Not sure I understand you question about MMA dropping it's rules? That would depend on WHICH MMA paradigm you are talking about.

[Buck]

Budo is a philosophy or a way of life. The way of the warrior.

It is not owned by anyone or any style. IMO, it can be inclusive of "MMA".

Agreed William, I am betting this will go over a 100.

Not sure I understand you question about MMA dropping it's rules? That would depend on WHICH MMA paradigm you are talking about.

Don't think so. Budo is inclusive. Just as being the Queen Of England. MMA are not Budoka. Just as Knights aren't Samurai. Just as black doesn't mean white. MMA are not Budoka. MMA is an entertainment sport. MMA are professional ring fighters and not fire fighters.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Okay..whatever. WIki has a pretty good synopsis of budo. My interpretation is pretty I guess more liberal than yours, which seems to be a more fundamentalist view on things.

Budo has more to do with the philosophical and spiritual aspects of practice and living than the physical.

However, literally, if I follow a fundamentalist view, I could argue that most here could not be budoka since they are not in the military and therefore could not really experience the true nature of Budoka, but are simple LARPERs.

Your analogies also are not good ones as it is possible for a MMA ring fighter to be a fireman and fight fires.

but again...whatever.

[Buck]

Okay..whatever. WIki has a pretty good synopsis of budo. My interpretation is pretty I guess more liberal than yours, which seems to be a more fundamentalist view on things.

Budo has more to do with the philosophical and spiritual aspects of practice and living than the physical.

However, literally, if I follow a fundamentalist view, I could argue that most here could not be budoka since they are not in the military and therefore could not really experience the true nature of Budoka, but are simple LARPERs.

Your analogies also are not good ones as it is possible for a MMA ring fighter to be a fireman and fight fires.

but again...whatever.

Your right we better end this while your ahead. :)

[mathewjgano]

Don't think so. Budo is inclusive. MMA are not Budoka.
I'm not sure I follow. If budo is inclusive, wouldn't that imply MMA could be included? ...that they're not mutually exclusive ideas?

MMA is an entertainment sport. MMA are professional ring fighters and not fire fighters.
I think this is one of those which varies between people. Soccer is an entertainment sport to some, a way to stay in shape to others, and something only girls and foreigners play to yet others (courtesy of the construction culture). MMA is much the same i think and so I don't see how a person couldn't apply budo and MMA to each other.
To the OP, I just want to reiterate the idea that people train for different things. I don't train to take on top level MMA fighters so my odds are pretty slight. On the other hand, no one is invulnerable.

[Buck]

I'm not sure I follow. If budo is inclusive, wouldn't that imply MMA could be included? ...that they're not mutually exclusive ideas?



It was a typo, I must have been channelling Kevin, I meant exclusive. Through the word inclusive or exclusive isn't accurate. A better word would be distinctive; uniquely characteristic of a person, group, or thing. Also a characteristic quality or distinctive feature of something; property. Budo has distinguishable properties and characteristics. A parallel to look in those terms are fraternal orders, occupations, professions, religions, etc. Budo being inclusive isn't as Kevin said. Saying just because you fight doesn't make you a Budoka. Just because you dress a wound doesn't make you a doctor. As Kevin was stating inclusive meant nothing is excluded. Kevin being in MMA, combatives, and Aikidoka, he includes everything so he sees everything as being inclusive.

If he was true to his inclusiveness he wouldn't see Aikido verses MMA fighter. A verses this or that would not exist. But I know he is just messing with me. :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

I am not a eastern scholar, but I believe most eastern philosophies are based on the concept of nondualism,

I think this is key to the understanding of aikido and life in general.

Aikido and or better yet, Aikibudo, is about unifying, therefore, at least philosphically, budo is inclusive of all.

Stripping away labels and social constructs such as "doctor" and you simply have a person that is caring for another person.

The perspective all depends on how much you are willing to limit your paradigm of view of the things that you observe.

whoaaa, too much coffee tonight!

Buck, what is your definition of Budo or budoka? How do you decide what to include or exclude?

How do you know when you are viewing a budoka?

[Ketsan]

Budo has more to do with the philosophical and spiritual aspects of practice and living than the physical.

It seems to me, if I may be permitted the hubris, that the Budo/Bujutsu divide is largely a product of the western mind.

Is The Life Giving Sword a Budo or Bujutsu book?

Practical advice on winning sword fights that talks mostly about Zen.

[Kevin Leavitt]

agreed Alex, I believe the divide to be more a product of our western mind.

[Buck]

I am not a eastern scholar, but I believe most eastern philosophies are based on the concept of nondualism,

I think this is key to the understanding of aikido and life in general.

Aikido and or better yet, Aikibudo, is about unifying, therefore, at least philosphically, budo is inclusive of all.

Stripping away labels and social constructs such as "doctor" and you simply have a person that is caring for another person.

The perspective all depends on how much you are willing to limit your paradigm of view of the things that you observe.

whoaaa, too much coffee tonight!

Buck, what is your definition of Budo or budoka? How do you decide what to include or exclude?

How do you know when you are viewing a budoka?

Kevin, my response isn't just an inclusive response to you. :)

We often use words too liberally to fit our own personal definitions. It really deflates the meaning of words.

Pls, pardon my ignorance on Subjectivism, and Metaphysics. I don't see paring philosophy and the word inclusive fit together. Cause when I call and say my house is on fire, I get what is commonly known as fighter fighters; guys who use water hoses, wearing special gear, who try and put the fire out and not MMA guy who wants to prove MMA is better than Aikido. :)

If their are people in MMA who consider themselves budoka's, or what they do as a Koryu, or Gendai, or think they are Knights, swash buckling Pirates, or Robinhood's Merry men, am not in the business to change their minds.

So then variables exist that many MMA are not trained for because they train to fight in a highly controlled fight and specialized environment. Does this make them ineffective in the street, no just not as well equipped to deal with street variables that unlike a ring fight are far more unpredictable. In the ring you don't worry about someone threatening or trying to stab you a knife. You just have to worry about not getting hit where your K.O.ed, giving up your back, going the distance, fighting your fight and not his etc. All the things inclusive in ring fights. In the ring there are state officials, refs, judges and doctors. You wear a cup, a mouth piece, gloves, you wear no shirt or shoes, just skin tight briefs, or a gi. You know who you will be fighting, how much he weighs, his height, his build, his fighting styles, where and when you will fight, etc. You don't get any of that on the street.

Apples and oranges, Aikido and MMA. One isn't a ring fighter, the other is. Thus, the approaches, purpose, and circumstances are different ranging from narrowly to widely. Instead of saying the what ifs of Aikido and MMA-a pro-fighters like this and hundreds of other threads, why not say what if your car jacked at gun point as you get out of the car then what options and training does Aikido provide vs. that of pro MMA?

I prefer to use the word inclusive with numbers or in terms of language. :)

[Buck]

I still say against to train in the dojoimaging your uke is Thiago Alves I say use a mock stun gun. Or a jo, or bokken. Then the question is what would MMA do against that...sorry unfair question there are rules against the use of weapons in MMA/the ring. Weapons training offense or defense was never in the MMA/BJJ plan. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

[Mannix Moya]

,
I answer my question what about you?

I ask myself this question time and again. It doesn't even have to be Thiago. Realistically, an experienced MMA fighter can kick my butt. These guys train day in and out to fight. On the other hand, I squeeze in whatever time left out of work and family to practice.

However, I strongly feel that anybody who successfully integrates mind/body/spirit with his/her chosen art (aikdio, karate,etc) should be able to overcome an MMA challenge. But that is easier said than done given the multitude of distractions each of us encounter daily.

Its not impossible though..which is why it remains to be my aspiration:)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

What you have to ask yourself is can an mma fighter fight three or more in a situation outside the ring? ......

I know plenty of doormen who have that ability and are fine when it comes to one.... but when it come to three or more with wolf pack mentality they go down just as quick as anyone else!!
I know 'cause I was one of the guys who had to jump in to save the poor bugger from taking a nasty beating..... I took some damage too but he was in a worse state than me! ..... this same guy is 6' and more and built like the proverbial outhouse..... does judo, kick boxing, jujutsu and krav magra and is an all rounder.....
I'm just a 55 year old cabbie who happened to be there having a chin wag with the door personnel that you get to know..... when out of nowhere it all kicks off!! Believe me when I say that when you get into melee's like this, I don't care how good you are at A B or C you will not get away Scott Free and it only hurts afterwards!!

This aint the first time I have had to deal with real life nasties like this.... It happens in my job..... goes with the territory as it does with doormen......
Yes I did take him and myself to the local A & E to get glued up!! Wonders of new technology.....!!
And yes we were there the next night having a chin wag and licking our wounds!! Goes with the territory!!

Guess what!.... it all lasted about 10 - 15 seconds and then the bloody sods did a runner!!

Tony

[Brad Avrich]

Who ones attacker is and what style they fight with is irrelevant in the practice of aikido. If you're a solid aikidoka, then that's all that should matter in a fight against anyone. Am I relaxed? Am I extending ki? am I centered under and moving from one point? Am I keeping weight underside? If you can answer yes to all these questions then no other external variables should matter. No matter how stong someones punch is, it doesn't matter if you're getting off the line of impact and entering. No matter how big someone is, if you take their one point, then they can be thrown like anyone else. Train hard and believe in your art and yourself.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I still say against to train in the dojoimaging your uke is Thiago Alves I say use a mock stun gun. Or a jo, or bokken. Then the question is what would MMA do against that...sorry unfair question there are rules against the use of weapons in MMA/the ring. Weapons training offense or defense was never in the MMA/BJJ plan. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

Helio Gracie would beg to differ with you on the fact that weapons are not taught in the BJJ plan. He spends a great deal of time in his very expensive hard covered book on BJJ discussing weapons and common attacks. All high level BJJ instructors I have been with discuss weapons and common "stand up attacks".

The whole issue of "parity" usually comes up when someone debates the whole ground fighting issue. That is, stuff like well I'd just hit him in the crotch or eye gouge.

Parity is parity. If you can do these things, so can I. You have a stun gun...I get one too, then lets see how well we do once we have parity.

We've been through this before so no real need to go there again. You've made up your mind about what neat boxes things fit in. BJJ in this box, Aikido in that box, Ring Fighters can't be Budoka, etc, etc.

It is a shame that you limit yourself to not see the potential that other things can offer.

One question that I hope you can answer, or will take the time.

Would you consider ME a budoka? That is, based on what you know about me?

[DonMagee]

For me MMA is a form of yoga or moving meditation. It is a chance to clear my mind and flow with and shape the events moving around me. Sometimes I gain control and can shape this force to my will, other times I am force to move with it, accepting it's consequences and designs.

I willingly forfeit my life every time I spar (metaphysically). This is not a fight with rules, this is a focus on a subset of an engagement that is life or death.

I teach my students how to do dirty things. I would say that my 1 year judo students know more nasty things then most 25+ year traditional martial arts instructors. More so then that however, they know the stress of conflict and how to engage in an advantageous way. Even when the odds are stacked against them.

We do spar 3 on 1, 2 on 1, and 1 on 1. We spar with handicaps, such as being limited to one arm or your opponent not wearing a gi. We spar allowing all sorts of non competition legal techniques. We spar starting from the most disastrous positions.

I am 100% confident that I am preparing these students to protect themselves.

On a side note, I did beat 3 of them at once in a grappling match last friday. :D

[Lyle Bogin]

Who studies just one martial art anyway? Most of the martial arts I know are pretty mixed...

[Buck]

Helio Gracie would beg to differ with you on the fact that weapons are not taught in the BJJ plan. He spends a great deal of time in his very expensive hard covered book on BJJ discussing weapons and common attacks. All high level BJJ instructors I have been with discuss weapons and common "stand up attacks".

The whole issue of "parity" usually comes up when someone debates the whole ground fighting issue. That is, stuff like well I'd just hit him in the crotch or eye gouge.

Parity is parity. If you can do these things, so can I. You have a stun gun...I get one too, then lets see how well we do once we have parity.

We've been through this before so no real need to go there again. You've made up your mind about what neat boxes things fit in. BJJ in this box, Aikido in that box, Ring Fighters can't be Budoka, etc, etc.

It is a shame that you limit yourself to not see the potential that other things can offer.

One question that I hope you can answer, or will take the time.

Would you consider ME a budoka? That is, based on what you know about me?

Kevin, fat men don't wrestle Hyenas the shoot them.

Unless you pour a liquid in a container it makes a mess and goes everywhere. You should not mix bleach and ammonia keep them in separate containers. Watching a basketball game in a bar when a player scores I don't yell "touch down!" If I did I really look stupid. There are all kinds of doctors, if I am physically hurt the doctor I want to see needs to be one of medicine and not philosophy or law. If there where no banks on a river would it still be a river? Just because it is water is it safe to drink; water, water every where and not a drop to drink. The sky isn't the sea, even though we use poetic license to create that metaphor.

It is not a matter of "neat little boxes" that thing fit into, it is a matter of differences. Just like I am different from you. I am straight that doesn't make me gay. A broom is different then a shovel. It is sad that out of a matter of convenience in your discussion you would use that old worn out and dated contrived nonsense of boxing me by referring to me liking things in "neat little boxes." Dude let's work a new angle.

When was that book you mentioned published? If your right then why aren't guns or weapons, even mock ones allowed in the ring. Like I don't see them fighting against a pugle sticks in the ring. :D

Like I said before the sad thing about many MMA fans etc. is the increasing lack of knowing history and appreciation of origin and culture. The tendency see the world only and singly through MMA. Kevin you who know better, you shouldn't perpetuate that disservice to them like in your reply. Get the truth out, teach them. Don't isolate them. :)

MMA is about challenging and Aikido to a cockfight, but Aikido hasn't taken the challenge and now we have millions of threads whining about it. Aikido like MMA is only as good a the person and how well they train. Aikido has its advantages and its design doesn't lend to sport fighting. Training to fight a MMA in Aikido is realistic, but highly improbable for 99.9% of Aikido. Most Aikidoka's have a higher probability of fighting of a dog attack then fighting professionally in an MMA cockfight. In fact an Aikidoka is more likely to get into a street fight then a pro MMA cockfight. Those Aikidoka who do fight or roll on the mat in pro or non-pro MMA fight choose to do so rather then ever encounter each other for a fight by chance on the street.

These threads are dead and pointlessly beating a dead horse by this boob (by replying to) out of boredom and stagnation. :yuck:

[Peter Chenier]

If may contribute...

Aikido is a way. MMA is a sport... never confuse the two. You'll grow old and have a good life if you figure it out! ;0)

A cryptic response?

Not if you get it...I don't , but I'm starting too. ;)

Hint... if someone reeeeeaaaaly wants to harm you all the octagon training in the world will amount to squat.

If you can come to terms with that reality your really on your way to becoming something other than for want of a better word a statistic.

Respectfully

Peter

[Kevin Leavitt]

Phillip Wrote:

It is not a matter of "neat little boxes" that thing fit into, it is a matter of differences. Just like I am different from you. I am straight that doesn't make me gay. A broom is different then a shovel. It is sad that out of a matter of convenience in your discussion you would use that old worn out and dated contrived nonsense of boxing me by referring to me liking things in "neat little boxes." Dude let's work a new angle.

But a gay person is still a person, a human being. One that gets up, puts on his shoes just like you. He has feellings, eats, breathes, and sleeps just like a straight person.

This may seem trivial, but this is my whole point. We are simply not learning the lessons of aikido if we form attachments and label things (dualism).

By labeling a person as being "gay" or "straight" we essentially establish boundaries or distinctions. We start seeing things based on the labels that we place on them and that limits what else we can see.

Fundamentalist thinking moves away from this way of thinking though. A fundamentalist mindset reduces things to what one preceives is "fundamental". that is "Straight/Gay" "morale/immorale". "black/white", MMA/Aikido."

The biggest fear of fundamentalism is "letting go" of these attachments or labels. Rational such as "if we do that we will have chaos and anarchy on our hands". "people can simply do what they want". "we have to have rules!".

Seems like a small point maybe, but I clearly see this debate we are having in this lane, and IMO, it is an important one to consider when you consider what the message of Aikido is pretty much about. That is nondualism or unification/reconciliation.

Okay, enough about that.

Philliip Wrote:

When was that book you mentioned published? If your right then why aren't guns or weapons, even mock ones allowed in the ring. Like I don't see them fighting against a pugle sticks in the ring.

Helio's book was published in the last 2 or 3 years.

Not going to answer the question concerning why weapons aren't allowed in the ring. Do you commonly practice with these things in your aikido dojo? what is the point of the question really?

I still am curious to what your answer to the question I keep asking you:

Do you consider me a budoka?

What do you consider the parameters or conditions or tenants that one must follow to be considered budoka?

Your failure to answer these questions and also to once again bring up emotionally charged statements comparing MMA to cockfights, is demonstrating, very clearly to me that you are less interesting in engaging in a philsophical debate and more interested on being argumentative and baiting me and other folks into a senseless, emotionally driven sidebar discussion around the actual issue.

[Buck]

Phillip Wrote:

But a gay person is still a person, a human being. One that gets up, puts on his shoes just like you. He has feellings, eats, breathes, and sleeps just like a straight person.

This may seem trivial, but this is my whole point. We are simply not learning the lessons of aikido if we form attachments and label things (dualism).



The thread starting question is dualism. Aikido was founded on dualism. I don't make the labels, I just observe them. I need to in not to go around confusing people and being confused in society. As for my example of homosexual and straight, gays labeled themselves that and defined themselves and their life styles, I didn't. I just observe that so I know how they want to be treated and defined, thus respected etc. It educates me.

The whole MMA challenge is dualism, MMA strongly functions in dualism and not zen, subjectivism etc.

more later....

[Ketsan]

If may contribute...

Aikido is a way. MMA is a sport... never confuse the two. You'll grow old and have a good life if you figure it out! ;0)

A cryptic response?

Not if you get it...I don't , but I'm starting too. ;)

Hint... if someone reeeeeaaaaly wants to harm you all the octagon training in the world will amount to squat.

If you can come to terms with that reality your really on your way to becoming something other than for want of a better word a statistic.

Respectfully

Peter

I don't like octagons, they scew up my feng shui :D

[Kevin Leavitt]

The thread starting question is dualism. Aikido was founded on dualism. I don't make the labels, I just observe them. I need to in not to go around confusing people and being confused in society. As for my example of homosexual and straight, gays labeled themselves that and defined themselves and their life styles, I didn't. I just observe that so I know how they want to be treated and defined, thus respected etc. It educates me.

The whole MMA challenge is dualism, MMA strongly functions in dualism and not zen, subjectivism etc.

more later....

Aikido recognizes dualism. It attempts to reconcile dualism. This is a little more precise than saying it was founded on dualism.

I am confused by your last sentence. You say MMA is dualism, and above you say aikido was founded on dualism.

I think a more precise statement may be "MMA guys are less concerned with the philsophical debate of dualism than maybe Aikido guys".

But, again, you don't answer my questions concerning the traits and tenants that you consider to be budo, which is what our whole debate started, so we are simply just chatting around the subject until you define it.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

more (trolling) later....

Whatever floats your boat, Buck.

[DonMagee]

If may contribute...

Aikido is a way. MMA is a sport... never confuse the two. You'll grow old and have a good life if you figure it out! ;0)

A cryptic response?

Not if you get it...I don't , but I'm starting too. ;)

Hint... if someone reeeeeaaaaly wants to harm you all the octagon training in the world will amount to squat.

If you can come to terms with that reality your really on your way to becoming something other than for want of a better word a statistic.

Respectfully

Peter

I would suspect that Jigoro Kano, who probably is the reason Japanese martial arts even exist today, would disagree.

[Buck]

I don't like octagons, they scew up my feng shui :D

Thanks for the laugh! :)

[Buck]

Kevin, as much as I would like to slap this puck around with you, maybe a new thread should be started on our never ending story of how we see the world differently. To dualism or not to dualism that is the question. :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Only if you answer my 2 questions.

[aikiSteve]

The other day I overheard Baker Sensei answer a question from a new student. The student asked "How come you never see Aikido in the Ultimate Fighting Championships?"

Baker Sensei said: "It's because someone that truly understands Aikido would hit his opponent with a chair the second he stepped out of the cab! They tend to frown on that." :D

[Kevin Leavitt]

I understand what Baker Sensei is trying to say, I think.

But I also think that answer is not enough to actually be helpful to anyone trying to understand the assumptions, paradigms, and methodologies and endstates of martial training.

I'd say the vast majority of folks, myself included, had no real understanding of why we arts such as aikido. Heck to this day I still find myself wondering!

We come and do this stuff for some of the most irrational reasons, IMO, and stick around, I think, because deep down inside we are drawn to it because maybe for reasons we cannot explain...it just feels right.

So with respect to Baker Sensei, I don't know how you even begin to answer this question! But yes, that is definitely NOT a wrong answer, and one I have given as well, if nothing else to make the person THINK deeper about what things are and can be!

We study something that is based on very violent things, at the base we don't restrict ourselves to training methodology that we learn in the dojo...that is IF, the need to take action is warranted.

That said, the very nature of our philosophy and practice should provide us the ability to be much more skillful at finding ways around that action (hopefully).

Baker Sensei's answer should serve to remind us that we need to be careful about the paradiqms we establish based on daily training, habits, and methodology. They can cloud the real issues and cause dissonance problems in the heat of "battle".

Anyway, one thing I like about guys that have an affinity for the MMA paradigm is that they typically understand better than most why they are training what they are training. Endstates are clearer, and they are fully committed to getting there...physically at least.

However, it will be interesting to see as many hit physical peaks and start to age how they might deal with this once you start to come to the realization that you ain't the top dog, and you are going to die one day!

Good discussion.

[Buck]

Kevin,

I don't think it is a good idea to get too intellectually philosophical on this topic, because it isn't of that nature. What is being discussed doesn't need the heavy intellectual philosophical arguments discussed in ivory towers of what reality is and what isn't. Though I think you could do it. I am just not willing to stray in that direction on this topic in this thread. You brought in the inclusive and dualism ideas. I have no problems on how you see things. But, I just don't agree in this topic fits that, because of the first post starts off. Just look at the title of the thread. They we are presented with a hypothetical. We should be discussing the validity of that hypothetical.

As I said be before, since these threads are land mines, I would use a stun gun. We think of Aikido only within the time period of when it was created and back from there. This doesn't allow for new weaponry etc. like a stun gun with I feel fits within the design of Aikido because it is not lethal. If we train against and with weapons like knifes, staffs, guns and swords, why train to use a stun gun? Keep this in mind when your re-read Tony Wagstaffe's excellent post.

It is much more challenging to discuss that what I just said then go off on a tangent criticizing each other's personal views and philosophies. :)

[David Paul]

MMA is about challenging and Aikido to a cockfight,

Aikidoka's have a higher probability of fighting of a dog attack then fighting professionally in an MMA cockfight. In fact an Aikidoka is more likely to get into a street fight then a pro MMA cockfight. :

Just curious why you feel the need to denigrate MMA by referring to it as a "cockfight"?

Also-not related to your post-but generally speaking-in reality these two things have nothing to do with each other. MMA is a combat sport, Aikido is not. Doesn't mean one is better than the other-it just means they are different things.

[Buck]

Cockfight is used because describes a contest where gamecocks are pitted against in a ring fitted with metal spurs and the loser usually is killed. And the similarities of cockfight with MMA like having audience, trainers, handlers etc. The word also represents the intensity of the contest which is an all out violent bloody fight that entertains.

I know some see it more romanticized then I, but cockfighting is not to be condescending as I am also a fan.

[Gregory Pinkerton]

Cockfight is used because describes a contest where gamecocks are pitted against in a ring fitted with metal spurs and the loser usually is killed. And the similarities of cockfight with MMA like having audience, trainers, handlers etc. The word also represents the intensity of the contest which is an all out violent bloody fight that entertains.

Pardon my asking, but how does that differ from any number of competitive arts or sports for that matter? Kendo, Judo, Karate, BJJ, even fencing, football, and others share that commonality. (Why not just use the term 'fight' in your analogy instead of 'cockfight'? Since the latter has two major traits that don't hold for competitive sports and martial arts. No consent by the participants to 'enter the arena' so to speak, and often to the death.)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Kevin,

I don't think it is a good idea to get too intellectually philosophical on this topic, because it isn't of that nature. What is being discussed doesn't need the heavy intellectual philosophical arguments discussed in ivory towers of what reality is and what isn't. Though I think you could do it. I am just not willing to stray in that direction on this topic in this thread. You brought in the inclusive and dualism ideas. I have no problems on how you see things. But, I just don't agree in this topic fits that, because of the first post starts off. Just look at the title of the thread. They we are presented with a hypothetical. We should be discussing the validity of that hypothetical.

As I said be before, since these threads are land mines, I would use a stun gun. We think of Aikido only within the time period of when it was created and back from there. This doesn't allow for new weaponry etc. like a stun gun with I feel fits within the design of Aikido because it is not lethal. If we train against and with weapons like knifes, staffs, guns and swords, why train to use a stun gun? Keep this in mind when your re-read Tony Wagstaffe's excellent post.

It is much more challenging to discuss that what I just said then go off on a tangent criticizing each other's personal views and philosophies. :)

There are no "land mines" really in these threads. Except by those that want to create them.

The fact of the matter is that folks really want straight answers and honestly want to know how they might handle certain situations.

Unfortunately, IMO, the answers are not as simple as "use a stun gun" or "hit them with a chair". If it were that simple, well why do we even need to study Aiki, Aiki Budo, or any empty hand martial art for that matter?

Escalation of force and conflict resolution are very complex topics. Not "land mines", but complex situations that require skillfullness.

So, yes, it does require us to look at problems the right way. that is, boil them down to the root of the problem, remove emotion, and look it holisitically.

In all situations, there is a "force continuum" that is, their is a start, a middle, and an end. The end is "what happens after the fight".

Talk to survivors of violent encounters, police officers that have used deadly force, or soldiers about the choices they made and how they felt after it was all over. How well they were prepared prior to the event has much to do with how they fare after it is over.

"just use a stun gun". If it were only that simple.

So yes, it does, IMO, require you to discuss the topic in terms of mind, body, and spirit. To address it from a perspective of budo, and to look at the complexity of the situation.

you know...use a degree of skillfulness.

It is why I hope we have folks doing aikido.

The validity of the hypothetical?

It is valid because the poster asked the question...period.

What those that post a response owe him is a well thought out, straightforward, and responsible response that answers his question in a skillful manner.

Not, "use a stun gun".

So, yes, I do believe it is important to consider philosophy, ethics, and morality anytime we discuss use of force and reality, otherwise....this is the whole point of aikido...really any martial art.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Cockfight is used because describes a contest where gamecocks are pitted against in a ring fitted with metal spurs and the loser usually is killed. And the similarities of cockfight with MMA like having audience, trainers, handlers etc. The word also represents the intensity of the contest which is an all out violent bloody fight that entertains.

I know some see it more romanticized then I, but cockfighting is not to be condescending as I am also a fan.

well as an above poster presented, there is a big difference and it has to do with consent.

Only in the "trappings" does it have anything in common. A ring, audience and training.

the ethics of it are entirely two different things.

Your a fan of cockfighting?

If so, you and I have some MAJOR difference on ethics and morales for sure.

[CNYMike]

I 'm not taking that bet. If I answer Kevin it will go over a hundred :)

It's already more than halfway there. :) Reminds me of this line from Guys and Dolls: "Daddy! I've got cider in my ear."

[Nathan Wallace]

Martial arts don't fight, martial artists do. It's skill not style.

[Ron Tisdale]

Your a fan of cockfighting?

If so, you and I have some MAJOR difference on ethics and morales for sure.

Me too, Kevin, me to...
B,
R

[Douglas Fajardo]

Well budo is a way of life , the way of the samurai , the way of the soldier as a profesional killing weapon , the ninjas were mercenary a long time ago, vikings they had their own vison of life,and fight ,everybody has his vison,, budo, bushido., buda, the tao ereybody has his own vision as a warrior or religious man, the idea is to find you inside of you, to find the real you , defeat yourself and the you will win ´cause you have control of your mind ,,,, thats is my fellows the real place where we wanna go , (real calm inside the storm) MMA figthers has his own vision at the beginnig the idea was to beat everyone and be the best fighter that´s not new, competion exist a long time ago with rules or wihtout,but now is diferent, now is a show,but be careful this fighters can kick your head off , after the desaster on PPV Gracie family sold the UFC they wanna a UFC without rules like old figthers, but we are not use to see such a violence, I guess that the same happend with Aikido We can not figt in competiton and that why most of the people that I knowin Aikido are fat ,lazy,coward ,always talking about budo , that they are superior in Aikido , i think that the real warrior is the one hwo knows diferent Martial Arts and face the death but seeking it , for me trainning MMA .Aikido . jiu jutsu ,muay thai and others make me better figther ,and always prepare for the unknow

[DonMagee]

Martial arts don't fight, martial artists do. It's skill not style.

I would say it's both. I have seen many people come in with ability, but they do not get skill until they train in a style.

[Buck]

"just use a stun gun". If it were only that simple.



You make too much of it Kevin, it is that simple. The goal isn't who can prove x or y, but instead the goal is to defend yourself and survive in a non-sport arena vs. winning money and fame in a sport arena. Aikido doesn't concern its self with the latter. MMA does. Simple, oil and water doesn't mix. It doesn't have too.

[Buck]

well as an above poster presented, there is a big difference and it has to do with consent.

Only in the "trappings" does it have anything in common. A ring, audience and training.

the ethics of it are entirely two different things.

Your a fan of cockfighting?

If so, you and I have some MAJOR difference on ethics and morales for sure.


See Kevin you got me thinking you at times are like Max Weber:
"Weber incorporated a distinctively psychological level into his definition of the basic substance of sociology and social action. Action is defined as such "insofar as the acting individual attaches a subjective meaning to his behavior - be it overt or covert, omission or acquiescence." Action is "social" insofar as "its subjective meaning takes account of the behavior of others and is thereby oriented in its course".

"Weber's concern with subjective meaning implies that he regarded the individual as motivated, assessing his environment in terms of its significance for him, and organizing his behavior accordingly; furthermore, social action cannot be understood, described, or analyzed without reference to this subjective meaning." :)

Dude it fits. Bravo.

[DonMagee]

You make too much of it Kevin, it is that simple. The goal isn't who can prove x or y, but instead the goal is to defend yourself and survive in a non-sport arena vs. winning money and fame in a sport arena. Aikido doesn't concern its self with the latter. MMA does. Simple, oil and water doesn't mix. It doesn't have too.

Seems to me from reading posts here that most aikido simply aims to keep a tradition alive and not either of the things listed above.

[Buck]

I think thread like this that are MMA challenges Aikido truly a oil and water don't mix thing, and it shouldn't have to. If MMA is superior to Aikido then why challenge Aikido?

Human cockfight a.k.a cockfighting for short where two men beat each other in a brutal vicious way which is often very bloody until one submits under rules in a ring, it is starkly different from that of Aikido. I say this in that way as a delineation that MMA and Aikido are different from each other, and there is no reason to pit them against each other. You did agree in so many of your posts.

For me I am not here to change the you see things. I am responding to the post a simple training method. It is too messy for me to get all caught up in a complexity of philosophical views on what is or isn't. That I leave to the philosophers of then and now.

Occham's Razor is the root of my opinion of the use of the stun gun. And keeping Aikido as it was intended a much as possible, i..e. no teaching kids, it wasn't part of the 60's hippy movement etc. Working to keep it's shape. That doesn't mean not changing i.e. different Aikido styles shouldn't exist but keep it Aikido. For example, the stun gun works withnin Aikido where a gun doesn't.

[Guilty Spark]

If may contribute...

Aikido is a way. MMA is a sport... never confuse the two. You'll grow old and have a good life if you figure it out! ;0)

Respectfully

Peter

Disagree in a way.

To a lot of people MMA and UFC et el *IS* a way of life.
They want to live eat breathep rocreate MMA and/OR UFC. You've seen them around.
Wearing TAPOUT shirts, hats, gym bags, stickers on their truck.

I realize what you meant but to a lot of people MMA is the same way Aikido is to us.

To the OP,

I've started doing MMA over here (I'ma green belt in Yoshinkan) and I love MMA. (Kevin Leavitt started me on the path). Some people try it out and quit their other martial art, say Aikido. Others choose to do both. Me I'm the latter. I still love Aikido, just approach them both differently.

Chances of an Aikido dude beating up a MMA professional fighter are practically non-existant. I think the chances of someone with 1 year of MMA training will most likely hold their own against someone with say 10 times that amount of Aikido training.

Training to not hurt your attacker (ideally) or use a "scalpul" as it were is a hell of a lot harder than just smashing someones head in.

Some people don't understand why we would practice Aikido when you get 100% more short term (heck even long term) gains from MMA as far as fighting goes (than Aikido)
Manyof the same people seem to have an uncontrollable need to point out how powerful and awesome MMA is and how it beats everything else. People equate practicing this to being better than someone else and it makes them feel better about being higher on the hirarchy ladder.
Some people just enjoy Aikido as a martial art with all it's pro and cons. Some people can make it work in a fight others can't.

On a side note, considering the way Samurai behaved in both ancient japan and even in WW2 (well perhaps samurai orientated warriors?) I'm not too keen on emulating them. Don't forget Douglas Ninja were sometimes Samurai with 2 jobs.
:circle:

[Andrew S]

In all likelihood the MMA fighter will win. Now can we get back to training?

[gregg block]

OMG I can't believe this post is still going on!

Grant with regard to your statement ". I think the chances of someone with 1 year of MMA training will most likely hold their own against someone with say 10 times that amount of Aikido training."

Doubt it.A lot of the Aikido guys I know also have background in other martial arts. Plus 10years will generally trump 1 year any day assuming both schools are competent and factors like size and age are equal.

This Idea that MMA is something new and unique blows me away. Bruce Lee's whole Philosophy was based on being ecclectic and " having no style so you can become all styles" , "absorb what is useful" and all that other jazz.

I also believe you need to become reasonably proficient(several years of training) in some type of Martial arts style before you start branching out too much otherwise you become like a tree which has very short roots. You may get blown over with the first strong wind... Just my opinion for what its worth..

[Guilty Spark]

That's cool Gregg

I guess it would count a lot on the amount of time a student attends classes, the quality of their school, the quality of their training.

I'm basing my opinion off of taking Aikido for a few years - 3 times a week and taking MMA 3 times a week for 2 months.

[Kevin Leavitt]

You make too much of it Kevin, it is that simple. The goal isn't who can prove x or y, but instead the goal is to defend yourself and survive in a non-sport arena vs. winning money and fame in a sport arena. Aikido doesn't concern its self with the latter. MMA does. Simple, oil and water doesn't mix. It doesn't have too.

I think aikido has very little to do with "defending and surviving". That is a reactive state to be in.

Instead I think aikido is more about "engaging and living".

Might seem like a play on words or semantics, but I really believe it is an important distinction in paradigm.

Defending and surviving is rudimentary, non-skilled, reactive in nature. A defense mentality builds boundaries, walls, and protective mechanisms. It makes us walk around in fear and worried. It is not concerned with understanding the nature and causes of conflict, but simply with "avoidance", "moving away", "lashing out"

Engaging means to be proactive and embracing. It is more challenging to be this way. It means coming out from behind "the wire". Facing your enemy, fears etc. Looking them in the eye and dealing with them in the most skillfull way you can.

Aikido as a do art teaches us how to live a good life, not how to survive. Surviving is "just getting by".

I want more out of life than that.

If you want to defend and survive, save your dojo fees and go buy a stun gun. They are much cheaper and will get you closer to your goal than studying martial arts.

[Voitokas]

Well said!

[Buck]

I am sorry Kevin, my fault for being too subjective for you in the use of survival and should have been more considerate thus, more definite for your understanding.

Please see my post in the thread titled Aikido Or Squash it gives a good picture of what I mean by survival.

I don't disagree with the other things you said, but as you laid it out I don't think it really directly has any impact on this current discussion; good OFT ideas that I would agree with under another discussion. :)

[Nathan Wallace]

I would say it's both. I have seen many people come in with ability, but they do not get skill until they train in a style.

Thats, not really what i was saying. Sorry to be so vague. Let me explain. If say Shioda Sensei was attacked by a no name with, lets say, three years experience in, oh, any martial art take your pick. Do you think the guy won't get totally raped on the spot? Now if I got attacked by, I don't know, a UFC champion fighter I'd probably be in trouble because despite my seven years in aikido, training has not filled up the whole of my days for that time. You see what I'm saying?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Greg Block wrote:

Doubt it.A lot of the Aikido guys I know also have background in other martial arts. Plus 10years will generally trump 1 year any day assuming both schools are competent and factors like size and age are equal

Of course my experiences don't count or speak for everyone's and every situation, so please keep this in mind.

However, I had about 10 years experience in MA and 8 or so in Aikido.

When we first started Army Combatives in my unit, I had guys with LESS than 1 years experience whooping my ass. It was really disconcerting for me.

That said, I got with the program and started fixing what was wrong with my trainng. Within about 6 months I was equal to them. 3 years later, I have surpassed them.

My aikido training was very relevant, however, what I was missing was "aliveness" which counted for very much!

Now that I understand that aspect, I have no problems anymore.

[Ketsan]

What we're talking about here is fighting skill, which can't be taught.
In my experience the best MA students are people who have had it a bit rough in life, they come with an aliveness and awareness that you can't teach. You can read that as paranoia because until the emotional content is removed through training that's what it is. :D

If you take someone like that it pretty much doesn't matter what you teach them, within reason, if they're taught well they're going to end up being dangerous to anyone they meet.

Out on the street it isn't how good your art is, it's wheather you realise you're in trouble or not and if you're used enough to being in trouble to deal with it effectively, assuming you weren't switched on enough to avoid potential trouble in the first place.

It's are you used to dealing with attackers on a psychological level?
Have you learned the prefight ritual? Can you distrupt the prefight ritual in such a way that the fight doesn't happen? Can you subtly communicate to your would be attacker(s) that attacking you is a really stupid idea while giving them a face saving way out?
Can you diffuse the situation? Can you use the prefight ritual to trigger an attack right when you want it? Can you show your opponent an "opening"

If you haven't got those basic survival skills you can study any art as hard as you like, it wont do you any good outside of the ring.

[Aristeia]

My experience reflects Kevin. About 10 years aikido training when I walked onto a bjj mat and got owned by people with less than a year. Once I started training with aliveness the aikido helped immensely I believe - and started to become functionalised.

I also disagree with the claim fighting skill can't be taught. Strongly disagree.

[Enrique Antonio Reyes]

There are no "land mines" really in these threads. Except by those that want to create them.

The fact of the matter is that folks really want straight answers and honestly want to know how they might handle certain situations.



I sincerely agree with what you say Kevin. Some people just need to find out what the majority of us think about a certain situation.

One-Aiki,

Iking

[Ketsan]

I also disagree with the claim fighting skill can't be taught. Strongly disagree.

TBH on reflection I don't like the term "fighting skill" for what I'm talking about. You can teach techniques and tactics, fine, no argument there, you can tune them to a fine pitch with sparring and competition, fine, again no argument.

I don't think the relaxed awareness, intuition or sensitivity to surroundings that allows someone to avoid trouble or maintain the initative through the prefight ritual can be taught though.

[Kevin Leavitt]

You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.

[Guilty Spark]

You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.

100%

[Ketsan]

You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.

It's a different situation in the military though, you're immersed in a culture which teaches and expects this kind of thing.
Things are a little bit different, IMO, for someone studying MA out in civilian life, unless you're on an uchi deshi program or something and even then I doubt an uchi deshi program is as effective at implanting a mindset as the military is.

[DonMagee]

It's a different situation in the military though, you're immersed in a culture which teaches and expects this kind of thing.
Things are a little bit different, IMO, for someone studying MA out in civilian life, unless you're on an uchi deshi program or something and even then I doubt an uchi deshi program is as effective at implanting a mindset as the military is.

I'd say my bjj training has given me the same thing. I'm much calmer now in stressful situations and in the few events where I have been put to task I have performed in a manner very close to my actual training.

Alive training can teach the skills. What you can't teach is athletic ability. I can execute my techniques under stress as well as any other practitioner, but I will never be as fast and as strong as some of the natural talent. My body was designed to be a small computer nerd.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Your environment is your environment. People learn to adapt to them and learn how to be "street smart" in them.

Your statement was categorically that these things can't be taught.

There is a big difference between "can't" and "generally are not".

I would go for "generally not" and agree as aikido is normally not based on a "stress induction" model.

[Ketsan]

I'd say my bjj training has given me the same thing. I'm much calmer now in stressful situations and in the few events where I have been put to task I have performed in a manner very close to my actual training.

Alive training can teach the skills. What you can't teach is athletic ability. I can execute my techniques under stress as well as any other practitioner, but I will never be as fast and as strong as some of the natural talent. My body was designed to be a small computer nerd.

Ah, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about anything at the start or during a fight or in any kind of stressful situation.
I'm talking about way before any of that

I'm talking about being switched on enough to see everything that happens in a public space even if there's nothing threatening going on.

[Aikibu]

83 83 83 83 83 84 84 84 84 :D

William Hazen

[Ketsan]

Your environment is your environment. People learn to adapt to them and learn how to be "street smart" in them.

Your statement was categorically that these things can't be taught.

There is a big difference between "can't" and "generally are not".

I would go for "generally not" and agree as aikido is normally not based on a "stress induction" model.

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm not talking about stress induction. I agree totally that all training makes you better able to deal with stress, no argument there.

I'm not talking about that though. I'm talking partly about being streetwise and switched on, but more about setting up an opponent mentally so that he becomes predictable.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I'm not talking about that though. I'm talking partly about being streetwise and switched on
Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.
but more about setting up an opponent mentally so that he becomes predictable.
You need to fill yourself with ki for that.

[Ketsan]

Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. The thing I've noticed about people that have grown up in rough environments is that they can smell trouble a mile off. They're aware of danger long before most people are.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Well, yea, sure.

Most of us are keying in on the fact that you said Can't be trained.

I agree that folks that are from a certain area will typically be more in tune to the subtle differences than someone that is not from that area.

However, put someone in that environment and they will immediately begin to "learn" and "process"....that is, if they have half a wit about them or it is of concern to them.

Certainly there are folks that will never figure it out no matter where you put them or what you train them on!

[Abasan]

Kevin, this aliveness you keep mentioning ... it it the mental alertness you gain from being in a volatile/dangerous environment? Kind of 'weapons live' situation? Is this how you train in aikido?

[Flintstone]

Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.
Actually I feel much more streetwise after my little Budo experience... 100% agree with this.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Kevin, this aliveness you keep mentioning ... it it the mental alertness you gain from being in a volatile/dangerous environment? Kind of 'weapons live' situation? Is this how you train in aikido?

From my perspective, no it is not the same thing I am talking about when talking about aliveness in training.

Aliveness in training is best explained by this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc

We (at least in my aikido training) don't train for the "street environment". We have enough to concentrate on just working on aikido.

When you start talking about environmental parameters it can be different for everyone in the dojo depending on their jobs, situations, size, sex, communities etc.

I think you need to be very careful when you start injecting this stuff into the dojo environment. Philosophically I am somewhat against it as it can serve to breed the wrong things in folks. Hypervigilance, paranoria and fear, which I think are counterproductive to what we are trying to do in aikido. At least that is my opinion.

Not saying that you should not work with folks to teach them to be "smart" in these areas, just that you need to be careful about the balance of this type of training.

Police, military, and those that are "high risk" in these areas typically figure it out, or have other training that supplements "dojo" training.

Counter to this is producing "feel good" aikibunnies...well that too can be a problem! right?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I think you need to be very careful when you start injecting this stuff into the dojo environment. Philosophically I am somewhat against it as it can serve to breed the wrong things in folks. Hypervigilance, paranoria and fear, which I think are counterproductive to what we are trying to do in aikido. At least that is my opinion.
...
Counter to this is producing "feel good" aikibunnies...well that too can be a problem! right?

Finding the balance...

I'd like to point to these articles by Toby Threadgill Sensei about stress induction in training an its effects.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=593
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=593

[Kevin Leavitt]

Thanks for the links. I will be training with Threadgill sensei in 48 hours so I really appreciate the links!

I think he is spot on actually with his outlook on this. Sums it up very well.

Aliveness, IMO, is a big trainer of the PCS he discusses. Also teaches you to make appropriate responses (Timing) for the giving conditions, which while a part of PCS, I think timing is something separate.

WRT to "environmental awareness" I think PCS to be a little different based, although related.

Good stuff, and again thanks!

[salim]

I ran across, what looks to be Aikido techniques used in MMA. Interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09n5lIMk&feature=related

[Ron Tisdale]

Saw that before, still makes me smile...
:D
B,
R

[DonMagee]

I ran across, what looks to be Aikido techniques used in MMA. Interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09n5lIMk&feature=related

If you look at most aikido techniques you quickly see they are obvious in their effect (the same is true with 99% of all martial arts). The question is can you perform them repeatably in a high stress situation.

Given a guy's arm as in the last half of that clip I am sure I could twist it around like that, but much less sure I could break it with any reliability.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Don, that is really the crux of the whole issue. Aikido is a methodology, not a collection of techniques. Sure, I could troll through a bunch of fights and stop at points in many of them and say "yup" see, there is aikido. Of course, the princples are universal!

The issue is as you state, have you developed your abilities to the point that you can repeat it under very stressful conditions.

Then you get into the whole "high percentage" issue as well. "doing what works"...most of the time against the average joe in the typical situaiton.

I am betting I will still be piecing this together for myself for many, many years.

[salim]

Don,

Good question. Only repetitive practice under high stress situation will tell.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yes...agreed Salim!

[Guilty Spark]

People take many different things from Aikido.
If you want your aikido to be effective as a self defense at some point in your training you need to train against someone who is physically trying to stop you from performing the technique. (ie resisting)

[Mannix Moya]

People take many different things from Aikido.
If you want your aikido to be effective as a self defense at some point in your training you need to train against someone who is physically trying to stop you from performing the technique. (ie resisting)

+1:)

[Enrique Antonio Reyes]

People take many different things from Aikido.
If you want your aikido to be effective as a self defense at some point in your training you need to train against someone who is physically trying to stop you from performing the technique. (ie resisting)

+2 Beers:D Cheers to that!

[Cyrijl]

I'd just like to say that the techniques in the video are not unique to aikido. Even most BJJ techniques used today are in judo if not also in traditional jiujitsu. It is just how you train that makes the difference.

[JO]

BJJ is derived from judo which is derived from older jujutsu systems, not all that surprising to find they share techniques.

I find it hard to understand that so many aikidoka seem to never train with counters and resistance. I just spent the last half hour of my Friday aikido class with neither me nor my training partner managing a clean technique because we blocked and countered nearly every move. It wasn't done at anything near the intensity of an all out MMA competition, but every muscle in my slightly out of shape body was exausted at the end, so I consider it worth my time. Is this really that rare in aikido dojos? It's not like I would want all my training to be like this, that wouldn't actually be productive, but I wouldn't want to never do real jiyu waza. Maybe were just lucky to have an hour of free practice every Friday. Or maybe I'm just a hard headed pain in the ass to train with?

[Guilty Spark]

I don't want to beat the aliveness thing to death. When UFC addicts go on about ZOMG Aliveness!!!!111 it makes me want to eat my face.

I think some Aikido students take insult over the idea that for Aikido to be more effective in a self defense senario it needs to be mixed with either another martial art OR an uke who is not only resisting but trying to hurt them.

At some point in their training;

-boxers stop shadow boxing and fight against opponents trying to smash them.
-police officers train to handcuff a fully resisting person
-soldiers will stop shooting at paper targets and war game with -lasers/paint type rounds against other soldiers trying to "kill" them
-many styles or martial arts compete

To listen to an aikido student speak (myself included) everyone will say I don't understand the fuss, we use resistance training at MY school, we must be different.... Everyone says this but I really don't know about that. If it was true it wouldn't be brought up so much.

As for spidy senses and training people for awareness maybe it's semantics. I don't see how you can train to be aware- awareness comes from being physically put in stressful situations. Police officers, soldiers, firemen heck kids growing up in bad neighbourhoods. That all comes with being subjected to those environments. You can't really train for something like that completly though training does help.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Grant,

very good post.

Training has to be a "layered" process, IMO. We do this in the military all the time.

The best way to train soldiers for combat is to put them in actual combat...that is.... to have situations that are "alive" where they are shooting at others with live bullets, and the other guys can shoot back with live bullets.

lol...

Of course we cannot use this as a methodology! we'd have no recruitment or any soldiers left to really fight!!!

AND it would be a "sink or swim" mentality of training.

Good Martial Pedagogies understand and account for this through what I called "layered simulation".

That is,

you define training boundaries and constraints to train various aspects that you want to enhance. THe boundaries allow you to train that area and offer a safe environment in order to allow for that.

Aliveness is never really 100% alive. But you approximate it in various ways.

Kata is good for developing good habits, posture, and correct movement.

We call this "reflexive fire drills" , "dry fires", "Pre-Marksmanship" training in the military. (It is Kata).

Not much aliveness there, but you need to develop these things in order to use your weapon correct.

You then need to actually go to the range and fire live bullets for "marksmanship".

We have MILES laser systems, simunitions for simulated fire....etc..

Well you see my point...

On environmental issues. They can be trained, but you are correct, of course, you have to be subjected to those environments.

Do your training outside, fully clothed, in the dark, on the street, with the noises, wetness, temperature, objects...etc. So when you are in a "situation" you are not necesarily facing sensory overload from dealing with all this for the first time.

I think most of you can imagine that training this way is a full time job!

It is! and then some!

So, then it boils down to "cost/benefit".

"What is the best use of my time for the greatest gain?"

I think for the average Aikidoka that this model does not represent a good cost/benefit ratio.

You can study budo for many reasons. I do agree that budo is not about showing up each week habitually and doing the same moves over and over, but constantly exposing yourself to weaknesses and challenges and pushing the your envelope to learn and grow.

That is, getting outside of your comfort zone.

That will be personal and what "getting outside of your comfort zone" means to a 22 year old, athletic male and a 60 year old, non-athletic female...well that may be entirely two different things!

However, I think there is room in budo for both.

Maybe not the same dojo or on the same night in the same dojo, but definitely both can study aikido and come together and train on a common ground at some point.

I think the problem for many of us, especially us middle aged males, is that we simply are frustrated alot with aikido because we see the potential, but many times it leaves us wanting more from our training.

We are meeting the objectives for some of the students on one side of the equation, but not the other!

This is a very important thing I think we need to consider.

[Ketsan]

To listen to an aikido student speak (myself included) everyone will say I don't understand the fuss, we use resistance training at MY school, we must be different.... Everyone says this but I really don't know about that. If it was true it wouldn't be brought up so much.



If you're training for kuzushi on contact (or even before if you're leading) how do you have resistance training when resistance requires balance?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Because "kuzushi on contact" is easier said than done. Also uke's work is avoid having his balance taken or recover it asap and, you know, sometimes he succeeds.

[Guilty Spark]

If you're training for kuzushi on contact (or even before if you're leading) how do you have resistance training when resistance requires balance?

Can you explain to me what kuzushi on contact is?

[DonMagee]

If you're training for kuzushi on contact (or even before if you're leading) how do you have resistance training when resistance requires balance?

I'm not perfect. I wish I was. Most of the guys I'm facing are not fully committed to their attacks. They want to hurt me, but they are also intelligent fighters.

This means I have to be that much better to throw them. This is honesty in training and it works.

Same is true in bjj. I can do all sorts of cool stuff against a first day student. Put me against a good purple belt and watch me flounder around and appearing to be much less skilled them I am.

The question is, which one of those guys is teaching me more?

[Ketsan]

Can you explain to me what kuzushi on contact is?

The moment your hand touches them, their posture is broken and/or they're off balance.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I'm not perfect. I wish I was. Most of the guys I'm facing are not fully committed to their attacks. They want to hurt me, but they are also intelligent fighters.

This means I have to be that much better to throw them. This is honesty in training and it works.

Same is true in bjj. I can do all sorts of cool stuff against a first day student. Put me against a good purple belt and watch me flounder around and appearing to be much less skilled them I am.

The question is, which one of those guys is teaching me more?

I think the answer can be both. When going against newbs, especially decent wrestlers, they move in very unpredictiable ways. Usually fast and very committed to what they are trying to do. In many ways you have to be on top of your game. Of course the holes are amazingly big, but it also allows you to take some risk and try stuff that you might be working on.

As you state, with experienced fighters, it becomes more of a game of chess, smaller gaps, attacks don't commit until there is a mistake made. Sometimes you have to open up a hole hoping they will take the bait!

Man I love the game!

[Ketsan]

I'm not perfect. I wish I was. Most of the guys I'm facing are not fully committed to their attacks. They want to hurt me, but they are also intelligent fighters.

This means I have to be that much better to throw them. This is honesty in training and it works.

Same is true in bjj. I can do all sorts of cool stuff against a first day student. Put me against a good purple belt and watch me flounder around and appearing to be much less skilled them I am.

The question is, which one of those guys is teaching me more?

Both guys are teaching you equally as much, but they're teaching different things.
I can relate to this in an Aikido sense. I can break my instructors posture only rarely, he doesn't even have to resist, he can just stand there totally relaxed.
If he wants he can chuck me all around the room, although it is becoming more difficult for him because Aikidoka naturally become resistant to Aikido.

My instructor is a useful check of my overall progress within Aikido, one day I'll be able to consistantly break his posture on contact, like I can with new guys and lower grades.

The new guy is equally useful though, he puts my progress within Aikido in a bigger context.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

As you state, with experienced fighters, it becomes more of a game of chess, smaller gaps, attacks don't commit until there is a mistake made. Sometimes you have to open up a hole hoping they will take the bait!

Like the founder used to say in Budo, Teachings of the Founder of Aikido:

"Fill yourself with ki and invite your opponent to strike with shomen (or yokomen) ..."

[Michael Douglas]

...If he wants he can chuck me all around the room, although it is becoming more difficult for him because Aikidoka naturally become resistant to Aikido.
I've kinda observed the opposite in my very limited observations...

Lower-ranking aikidoka become less resistant to higher-ranking aikidoka's aikido to be precise. :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Actually I have observed both phenomena. Some become more resistant, but quite a few end up with the "aiki" affect. that is, they get so used to "doing" aikido that they begin to form their own paradigm.

I even found out I was doing it a few months ago when I went to Judo and they had to keep reminding me not to jump into the ukemi on throws.

There are little affects that you pick up when you study with the same folks day after day year after year. It gets established in your paradigm.

All goes well until you meet someone that doesn't understand your paradigm and then things don't work, and we say they are more resistant!

Dissonance at it's finest moment!

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Lower-ranking aikidoka become less resistant to higher-ranking aikidoka's aikido to be precise. :)
This reminds me an old thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9226

[graham butt]

Depends on a lot of things again, Skill or practictioners, Speed, Agility, etc etc etc. I'm fed up of posts with "such and such VS such and such" There is far too many aspects to take into consideration!

-G-

[Kevin Leavitt]

Depends on a lot of things again, Skill or practictioners, Speed, Agility, etc etc etc. I'm fed up of posts with "such and such VS such and such" There is far too many aspects to take into consideration!

-G-

So what is the alternative? throw up your hands and say "I give up! It is hopeless?"

That is, far too many aspects that it does not warrant exploration or study?

[GeneC]

I'd apply a stun gun the Aikido way..blend, harmonize and ZAPP! I am an Aikidoka who thinking out side ring.

+1 on that. CCW , stun and gun.

IMO, I've studied MMA and would venture to say most decent MMA could take most BB in Aikido and I'll say why. Any decent MMA can deliver a side kick that most folks can't see, much less stop or avoid. Several of those will bring down the toughest folks. Speaking of taking down, if a decent MMA (equivilant to a BB) wants to take you down, most folks can't stop that either. How many Aikidoka can grapple? Grapple very good? We used to go 5 rounds of kickboxing, 2 hrs of grappling and then go run stadium stairs- 6 days a week. The typical joint locks in Aikido won't work with these folks, they know all those locks and then some and live to get out of the toughest holds.

IMO, we're talking apples and oranges. Like Krav Maga is apples and oranges to MMA. MMA has rules, KM doesn't. If one wants to learn to rip into someone's skin and tear it off their body and bust skulls and poke out eyes, etc, there's someone to teach it, but does that make it the best? Best what? Best at maiming and killing someone? That's a good thing how? That's not a martial art, that's an animal.

Like most folks here say, alot of variables will stack the deck( read that, get lucky), but that'd be the exeption to the rule.

But that's not why I'm drawn to Aikido. To me, the best martial Art is an overall art that shapes the overall person to be the best they can be. I believe Aikido will do that for me.

Btw, MMA is not a fad, mark my words, it'll soon be as popular as rasslin', NASCAR and Monster Trucks. Heck, maybe even baseball, but NEVER 3 on 3 female beach volleyball.

[RonRagusa]

My instructor is a useful check of my overall progress within Aikido, one day I'll be able to consistantly break his posture on contact, like I can with new guys and lower grades.

You are assuming that your instructor will not continue to grow or that your growth will outpace his over time. But won't he have the benefit of learning from you and adapting to your growth as you continue your practice together?

Ron

[Luc X Saroufim]

When going against newbs, especially decent wrestlers, they move in very unpredictiable ways.

good point. my training partner last week was a student in his very first class. i couldn't believe how hard it was to get him down, and it put a lot of things in perspective.

[graham butt]

Whats the alternative???? in a real situation, The alternative for me is ALWAYS to run! I have been in situations where i couldn't run but i got my friends and girlfriend outta there then ran! You don't have to fight. If however you mean an alternative whilst training then you should just train, no need for an alternative cause it's about developing yourselves, teaching each other.

[M Butt]

What does it matter which one is better? I have trained in Aikido, MMA and Kali and with people from many backgrounds. I have met Aikido who are trying out MMA in the gym for the first time and have had difficulty tapping them out. Alternatively, I have trained in Aikido with some MMA guys and found them to be a challenge on their first lesson. Their skill in the classes they tried for the first time meant they didn't win but their skill in their own arts they brought in meant they didn't lose either.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Whats the alternative???? in a real situation, The alternative for me is ALWAYS to run! I have been in situations where i couldn't run but i got my friends and girlfriend outta there then ran! You don't have to fight. If however you mean an alternative whilst training then you should just train, no need for an alternative cause it's about developing yourselves, teaching each other.

I think in order to train properly you need to focus on an endstate of some sort. IMO and experiences, training just for the sake of training produces alot of frustration, causes lots of confusion, and leads to a hodge podge of misunderstanding, misinterpretations, and you end up with something that resembles a practice, but not really sure what it is exactly.

Not saying everything ought to be about MMA as being the great yardstick by which all should be measured.

However, asking such questions and seeking for answers is healthy and necessary I believe in order to have something that is useful, relevant, and resembles a martial art.

I think if running were the answer to everything, then we'd simply go to the local track and teach folks how to run more efficiently, longer, and faster.

[curlytops]

There are fighters who use a bit of Aikido in their defensive moves.

[graham butt]

I did not say running is the answer to everything, It is my answer in MOST scenarios " Run away to fight another day" the last of the 36 stategies of sun Tzu. I fight if i have to then i run.

There is always an aim a goal or endstate when training. To be abe to defend yourself when you HAVE to. Which is the mind frame i have when i train.

I can fight when i NEED to, I also run when i NEED too.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Graham,

No problem. I understand what you are saying now.

A couple of other thoughts since you brought up Sun Tzu.

He also said "know your enemy" and something that paraphrases to "never take up the defense when you can be on the offense".

I think this applies as well if you are talking Sun Tzu. So, I think it is normal and appropriate to have folks ask these Aikido VS X type of questions. In an attempt to understand themselves and their "enemy" so to speak.

Anyway, Sun Tzu was talking about military strategies and doctrine and not so much about individuals defending themselves against an attacker.

I think much of Sun Tzu gets extrapolated, interpreted, and bastardized to fit what folks want it to fit. I remember when it was in vogue in business strategy!

Sure you can interpret it and relate to it however you want, but I am not sure that business and personal self defense is what Sun Tzu had in mind for application.

He certainly would not advocate running from a fight that you could win and gain ground on.

As you state, this might be the best course of action for self preservation and not be arrested!

I think this is the problem with using Sun Tzu rational base for personal decision making/strategy.

Anyway, not meaning to be argumentative, just a good topic to discuss.

I agree that running is a definite option. I am still trying to figure out for myself what role empty hand martial arts play in self defense.

Fighting when you NEED to is a good thing! Running is also! I agree!

[graham butt]

Sensei T.K Chiba also said "organised retreat need not mean defeat"

I consider running a way of not having to fight. I can live without fighting but i have to sometimes. It's natures way!

[Guilty Spark]

We never run. We just reposition ourselves to attack from a different angle :)

All kidding aside running isn't a bad tactic. You just need to make sure you can run faster scared than they can angry.

[Nathan Pereira]

My 2 pence - 16 years of aikido left me with lots of answered questions. 4 years of MMA/BJJ answered all those questions and more. I now tell my aikido friends we can debate till the cows come home but if you want to know strap on some golves, headguard, gumshield and see what happens. A lot can be cleared up very very quickly. Just talking about it is like learning to swim without getting in the water.

In my mind I am clear on what aikido is and isn't useful for and what it has taught me. MMA/BJJ has cleared my mind for my aikido. It has taken my aiki to another level as I have no frustrations/questions on if its effective or not or even care. I just enjoy aikido for the wonderful art it is.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Nathan, my experience are about the same as yours!

[M Butt]

I also studied Aikido for some years then switched to MMA/BJJ. I dont think this really pushed Aikido aside for me but it did answer some unanswered questions. Finally I got into Kali, and this confirmed to me that no style is ever "one VS the other". To me it is more a matter of "which style COMPLIMENTS which" and I have found Kali to be very complimentary to Aikido.

Thats how I view it anyway.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I ran across, what looks to be Aikido techniques used in MMA. Interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09n5lIMk&feature=related

Yep.... they would be gyakugamae ate, wakigatamae, mae otoshi..... all taught in the junana kihon waza of Shodokan Aikido
Har har!! :eek: :rolleyes: :cool: :D
Tony