PDA

View Full Version : this Obama guy knows some Aikido!


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


moreover
10-30-2008, 11:55 AM
After watching yesterday night's 30 minute TV special with Barack Obama I was thinking this guy knows some Aikido:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtREqAmLsoA
Many analysts had expected he'd use this time to hit back at his opponent's assertions but no - he just got out of the way, let the blows miss him, and turned in the direction he wanted to take.
No one got hurt, either, but his move out of the impact zone served to demonstrate his optimism that with new ideas and better priorities we can leave failed policies behind and rebuild a new America.
It reminded me of a fascinating book: Aikido in Everyday Life: Giving In to Get Your Way.

moreover
11-05-2008, 01:10 PM
Just heard an interview with Mark Sawyer on Terry Gross' "Fresh Air":

Mark had pretty much the same idea, saying that Obama used political Aikido to deflect his opponent's attacks. He's Associate Professor of African American Studies and Political Science at UCLA and the Director of the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics in Berkeley, so my guess is some of you might be training with him :)

The link to the interview is here:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96649317

Hogan
11-06-2008, 07:13 AM
So, I guess telling lies is aikido?

I'll keep that in mind.

lbb
11-06-2008, 07:58 AM
So, I guess telling lies is aikido?

I'll keep that in mind.

Better clean out that fridge, John, them grapes are sour.

Ron Tisdale
11-06-2008, 08:05 AM
All I can say is...

It's been a long time coming.

John, a LOT of bitterness on both sides from the nature of that campaign. How about this though...

This is one country...why don't we set our previous opinions aside and pull together to make this country work again?

Best,
Ron

Keith Larman
11-06-2008, 09:02 AM
This is one country...why don't we set our previous opinions aside and pull together to make this country work again?

Amen to that...

In my area over the previous 2 presidential elections I never had to wait to vote. On November 4 2008 the line went around the block. It actually choked me up.

Hogan
11-06-2008, 01:25 PM
Better clean out that fridge, John, them grapes are sour.

My comment is meant to mean that all politicians tell lies. Obama is a politician, ergo: he lies. I am not sour about anything, thanks for assuming though.

lbb
11-06-2008, 02:24 PM
My comment is meant to mean that all politicians tell lies. Obama is a politician, ergo: he lies. I am not sour about anything, thanks for assuming though.

Oh, I get it, so your comment was a tossoff and completely irrelevant to the thread. Got it. So, let's take it back to the thread. Obama gets called a Socialist, a Marxist, a Muslim, an associate of terrorists, a redistributionist, et cetera. He responds in a manner that has been equated to aikido. So what you are now saying is that you have no disagreement with that comparison whatsoever, but that you were simply offering an irrelevant, disparaging remark about politicians in general. Am I correct, or am I once again "assuming"? And, if the latter, will you elaborate and correct me?

Hogan
11-06-2008, 02:27 PM
Oh, I get it, so your comment was a tossoff and completely irrelevant to the thread. Got it. So, let's take it back to the thread. Obama gets called a Socialist, a Marxist, a Muslim, an associate of terrorists, a redistributionist, et cetera. He responds in a manner that has been equated to aikido. So what you are now saying is that you have no disagreement with that comparison whatsoever, but that you were simply offering an irrelevant, disparaging remark about politicians in general. Am I correct, or am I once again "assuming"? And, if the latter, will you elaborate and correct me?

No, you are assuming again. And no, I won't elaborate.

:)

Ron Tisdale
11-06-2008, 03:08 PM
So why post?

Best,
Ron (not that there's anything wrong with that... ;))

akiy
11-06-2008, 03:32 PM
Hi folks,

Please keep this thread (and all others) respectful, and please contribute positively to the discussion topic when you post.

Thanks,

-- Jun

bdwilliamscraig
11-06-2008, 03:55 PM
Some questions I think I hear and in which I feel interested:
If we compare literal aikido to aikido as metaphor (in this case "aiki-politics"):

Reading the Forum Rules but also recognizing room in them for interpretation, do we want this discussion to be like good training (individual and group attention paid to how we are practicing) or is it a place for learning from more "realistic" (unmediated by process-level attention) hostility, attacks, and reactions?

Is deception part of aikido?

Are categorical presuppositions (when I feel attacked, the attacker is deserving of whatever punishment I care to meet out ~~ all politicians lie) helpful when training to respond with a budo, much less aikido?

When is the time for appeals for unity (why don't we set our previous opinions aside and pull together to make this country work again?) when conflict is obviously occurring?

Can we address moreover's comparative assumptions directly

analysts had expected Obama would hit back at his opponent
he got out of the way, let the blows miss him
he turned in the direction he wanted to take
no one got hurt
moves out of the impact zone demonstrate optimism
using new ideas and better priorities can leave failed policies behind and result in rebuilding
this reflects Aikido in Everyday Life: Giving In to Get Your Way.

and also receive attacks and defenses with respect?

Uke is never wrong.

Ron Tisdale
11-06-2008, 04:00 PM
I actually don't feel we have shown John any disrespect.

When is the time for appeals for unity (why don't we set our previous opinions aside and pull together to make this country work again?) when conflict is obviously occurring?

Sorry, don't understand what you are saying here. Is your point that once conflict is already occuring, it is too late to appeal for unity? I'm afraid I don't agree.

Best,
Ron (just my opinions...)

bdwilliamscraig
11-06-2008, 05:08 PM
RE: Obamaiki
compare literal aikido to aikido as metaphor (in this case "aiki-politics"):

I noticed http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/4/202344/7059/662/449871

bdwilliamscraig
11-06-2008, 05:20 PM
I didn't intend to limit the question to John, but posed it more along the lines of "where is there disrespect here?" and "does it serve us?"

I'm not advocating positions at this time, so I am posing questions rather than making statements. I often take positions but need to consider these before posting them.

The point is not to insist "once conflict is already occurring, it is too late to appeal for unity". Since immediate appeals for unity are often ways to avoid hearing legitimate concerns (and this may or may not be the case here) my question is "when is the time?"

Hogan
11-06-2008, 05:46 PM
Hi folks,

... please contribute positively to the discussion ....

Thanks,

-- Jun

Well, I DID have a smiley face in my post...

And just because I do not wish to engage further in political discussion with someone, especially after there have been times here when certain people carried political talk to the extreme in the past - and I think you know who I am talking about - I think it understandable that I did not go further, & this does not mean I am trolling, as your PM warning claimed.

Hogan
11-06-2008, 05:49 PM
I actually don't feel we have shown John any disrespect......)

Quite right - I didn't take anything said as disrespectful at all. Especially from Ron, a fellow crook.... err, I mean Chicagoan..

:)

(note 'nother smiley face)

(at least a former Chicagoan, right Ron - didn't you say you were from or lived in Chicago at some point?)

lbb
11-06-2008, 06:23 PM
And just because I do not wish to engage further in political discussion with someone

I have the same question as Ron, then -- why go there in the first place? The thread was inherently political from its beginning, so why go there if you didn't want to engage in political discussion?

And, of course, you don't have to ask that question either. I think it does, however, raise some questions about the nature of discourse, both here and more generally.

Hogan
11-06-2008, 07:40 PM
I have the same question as Ron, then -- why go there in the first place? The thread was inherently political from its beginning, so why go there if you didn't want to engage in political discussion?

And, of course, you don't have to ask that question either. I think it does, however, raise some questions about the nature of discourse, both here and more generally.

My comment was my engagement. Not every comment needs to be explored further. I tried to make a short-to-the-point response to the original poster's claim that Obama showed Aiki like behavior in his campaign. My short comment, I thought, would get across I thought no such thing. THAT was my 'vote' so to speak on the question. If I wish to go no further, it does not mean that everything needs to be talked to death or that I am trolling, as Jun claimed in his PM to me. Can we move on to someone else?

Marc Abrams
11-06-2008, 07:41 PM
If Aikido is about blending and harmonizing, then look at the election results and Obama has achieved that in running a campaign for president of the Unites States of America.

I stood back and looked at my vote selections (I did vote for Obama) in awe at the potential of what could happen. I honestly did not believe that I would see in my lifetime what I saw the other night when Obama won the election. My wife and I were overwhelmed by positive emotions.

I am truly proud to be an American. What has happened has restored my faith in the ability of America to rise above the base tendencies towards hatred, misunderstanding, bigotries and other forms of ignorance. My pride began with McCain's concession speech ( the real McCain emerged again) and went on to Obama's acceptance speech.

Like the higher ideals of Aikido, I sincerely hope that our country can begin to work together again, not based upon the politics of fear that dictated the policies of the administration that is on is way out (NOT SOON ENOUGH).

Marc Abrams

hapkidoike
11-07-2008, 12:27 AM
So, I guess telling lies is aikido?

I'll keep that in mind.

You can argue that this might be off topic but you cannot aruge that it is not factual. What he did with FISA showed us that. He lost all credibility with me after voting in favor of telecom immunity. Maybe it is 'political aikido' but so what, the guy is still a no good politician.

just sayin,
bettis

Ron Tisdale
11-07-2008, 07:46 AM
Hi John, nope, never had the pleasure of a Chi-Town winter (brrrr) :D

But I did live in Rochester NY for a year (brrr brrr). ;)
The point is not to insist "once conflict is already occurring, it is too late to appeal for unity". Since immediate appeals for unity are often ways to avoid hearing legitimate concerns (and this may or may not be the case here) my question is "when is the time?"

And sometimes they are simply wishing to follow through on the marvelous start by both Obama and Mckain in trying to move forward now. ;) If an actual concern had been voiced and elaborated upon, I would be glad to entertain it. But since it wasn't...

Marc, My Sentiments Also.

Best,
Ron

David Orange
11-07-2008, 10:45 AM
All I can say is...

It's been a long time coming.



A great day, isn't it, Ron?

And though aiki does not require the opponent to off-balance himself when attacking, McCain's camp will stand as a great reminder of how easy it is to beat someone who IS off balance.

Obama just kept his cool, didn't do too much, and let his way-off-balance opponent bring himself down.

I liked McCain's concession speech, but it's the only time I've liked him now in many months.

Obama, on the other hand, grew on me very gradually. I started off supporting Hillary, but gradually came to respect Obama more and more. I think we made the right choice this time. Certainly, democracy won, with the huge turnout we had this year.

I'll pray that our new President lives up to the hope he has inspired in so many, not only here, but around the world.

http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/patoliphant;_ylt=AjUBu_q_.L4Cm5sN4EVIXQgDwLAF

Best to all.

David

Keith Larman
11-07-2008, 11:26 AM
Since you're posting links to editorial cartoons, my fave...

Ratified... (http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20081106/cx_tt_uc/tt20081106)

Ron Tisdale
11-07-2008, 03:38 PM
Hi David and Keith, nice cartoons!

I think there is one thing that this great day is going to do that some are going to find hard...

The old excuses just won't hunt anymore. A lot of people in my community are going to have to put up, or shut up... step up, or step off. The boogey man made me do it just won't cut it anymore. And that is a good thing.

Best,
Ron

Guilty Spark
11-08-2008, 08:01 AM
As if Neil Mick and Mike Sigum haven't jumped all over this thread!

It's sad race still seemed to play such hand in the election, atleats from what I'm picking up with Americans I'm rubbing shoulders with.

David Orange
11-08-2008, 05:54 PM
It's sad race still seemed to play such hand in the election...

Well, there was some of that. A lot of whites refused to vote for him because he's half black. A lot of blacks voted for him because he's half black, but the majority of the nation voted for him out of the belief that he would make an excellent President.

McCain was terribly unsettling with an apparently ill-considered choice for VP and you have to wonder about his decision-making after that. He probably would have made a pretty good President if he had been the Republican pick (and had won) in 2000, but the intervening years have not helped him.

Obama showed a lot of character and many other good qualities over these past two years and I think he gradually gained more and more supporters until the crucial day. I think there's a great new feeling in the air. I hope it lasts and grows.

Best to all.

David

coyotekin
11-12-2008, 02:36 PM
One of my black friend joked and said "Well, I guess The Man jokes and comments are out and not useable as an excuse." He caught me by surprise on that and we both smiled because it meant things had started anew and Americans view of reality became a bit broader.

hapkidoike
11-12-2008, 10:57 PM
. . . , but the majority of the nation voted for him out of the belief that he would make an excellent President. . . .

I don't buy it. I think most people voted for him becuase they thought John McCain would make a horrible president. I did not vote for him (given that I don't vote as a matter of principle) but I did support him insofar as I did not want McCains crazy butt in the W.H.

. . .Obama showed a lot of character and many other good qualities over these past two years and I think he gradually gained more and more supporters until the crucial day. I think there's a great new feeling in the air. I hope it lasts and grows.

I would argue that Obama showed that he can be a good politician, but that has nothing to do with his character. If he had any integrety he would not have voted for FISA and civil immunity for telecom companies that broke the law.

peace,
bettis

David Orange
11-13-2008, 09:16 AM
I don't buy it. I think most people voted for him becuase they thought John McCain would make a horrible president. I did not vote for him (given that I don't vote as a matter of principle) but I did support him insofar as I did not want McCains crazy butt in the W.H.

I agree that there was tremendous angst at the idea of McCain as our actual President, singing "Bomb, bomb Iran," calling Asians "gooks," sinking to all the Bush/Rove sewer tactics that beat him in 2000 and so on and so on and so on.

But I do think that after two years of looking at all the possible choices from the Republicans and Democrats, Greens, Independents and Libertarians, the majority decided that Obama would be the best. Of course, that does not mean, necessarily, excellent, but then, Bush has set the bar so low....

I would argue that Obama showed that he can be a good politician, but that has nothing to do with his character. If he had any integrety he would not have voted for FISA and civil immunity for telecom companies that broke the law.

"IF he had had ANY integrity he would NOT" = he has NO integrity.

And I don't think that's a true statement. I didn't agree with his choice there but if we're not going to impeach Bush, there's no sense prosecuting companies that followed his orders in time of war. Of course, I think we should impeach Bush, but I don't expect it to happen.

But as for integrity, how is refusing to vote any matter of principle?
And don't forget that old saying: if you don't vote, you can't complain!

David

ryujin
11-13-2008, 09:29 AM
So, I guess telling lies is aikido?

I'll keep that in mind.

In some ways it is. It's like saying "here I am. I'm available. Oops, I'm not there anymore and now you're on the floor. So sorry." :D

I also like to think of it as an ambush.

hapkidoike
11-19-2008, 11:13 PM
"IF he had had ANY integrity he would NOT" = he has NO integrity.

I did not intend for the statement "If he had any integrety he would not have voted for FISA" to be interpreted as a logic problem. My intention was to suggest my frustration at what I firmly believe was dishonesty on the part of President-elect Obama. Given that I will revise my statement: I think his actions regarding FISA were dishonest, and I will not vote for nor support dishonest people.

I didn't agree with his choice there but if we're not going to impeach Bush, there's no sense prosecuting companies that followed his orders in time of war.
Just because the House of Rep. refuses to pass any articles of impeachment against Bush does not suggest that anybody involved in illegeal activity surrounding the president should get a pass. Also, they KNEW it was illegeal, or should have known. The law and precident surrounding the Fourth Amendment is pretty clear. They should have told Bush to go shove it, and they should be held civilly and criminally responsible for not doing so. The law was not merely broken, it was ignored, and civil rights were violated. Those who are resposibile ought to be held accountable. If they are innocent then what do they have to fear?


But as for integrity, how is refusing to vote any matter of principle?
And don't forget that old saying: if you don't vote, you can't complain!
David

The old saying is a big bucket of FAIL. First of all I was and have not been (in recent history) given LEGITIMATE canditates for office. Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil and I just wont do it. There is nothing honorable about voting for someone who sucks because the other guy sucks more. Also, if you vote you legitmize the system, so my counter argument when somebody suggests that I have no right to complain because i don't vote is that NO! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN! By voting you explicity show that you think the current system has legitimacy, and if you believe the current system has legitmacy then you've really got nothing to complain about.

To conservatives I say this: America! Love it or leave it! (I have always wanted to turn that around on them, even though I am more idologically in line with them than anybody else).

peace
bettis

Mike Sigman
11-20-2008, 08:04 AM
As if Neil Mick and Mike Sigum haven't jumped all over this thread!
"Sigum"????? My "man"hood has been removed. Woe is me.

Keith Larman
11-20-2008, 09:42 AM
"Sigum"????? My "man"hood has been removed. Woe is me.

Ya know, I read that and thought of the serious joke potential, but I didn't want to run the chance of insulting you over such an easy shot... :D Glad you went there instead. I feel much better now. Nothing worse than seeing potential for a bad joke but not being able to let it out due to fear of being seen as yet another passive aggressive Aikido guy... :p

David Orange
11-20-2008, 10:03 AM
The old saying is a big bucket of FAIL. First of all I was and have not been (in recent history) given LEGITIMATE canditates for office.

You want someone to GIVE you what you need or want?

You have to MAKE it, friend.

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil and I just wont do it.

So you have to live with the results. Anyone you vote for is going to be human, so until we are ruled by benevolent computers....but I get the sense you'd not like the programming on those, either.

There is nothing honorable about voting for someone who sucks because the other guy sucks more.

I don't agree with you that that was our choice in this election. Could be wrong, but since I live in this country and I'm a citizen and I don't see anywhere on earth that's really better, I think it's my duty to try to elect the best person I can.

And note, I said "the BEST". If I wanted to be negative-minded, I could say "the one who sucks less," but frankly that is a very immature way to view it.

Also, if you vote you legitmize the system, so my counter argument when somebody suggests that I have no right to complain because i don't vote is that NO! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN! By voting you explicity show that you think the current system has legitimacy, and if you believe the current system has legitmacy then you've really got nothing to complain about.

You're wrong there, Isaac. I helped Obama win this election because I trusted him. If he betrays us, I will complain because I helped him and he betrayed me.

Likewise, if he makes positive changes and improves the national course and condition, I will be proud that I helped him do it in my little bit.

My trust in "the system" was seriously damaged in 2000, with the Supreme Court intervention, and again in 2004, with the swiftboaters. But to me, the election of 2008 was when people really got sick of that kind of politics and rallied behind someone who seemed to represent a new approach to the nation and the world. If it turns out to be false, you'll hear plenty of complaints from me because I earned to right by making an effort to move things in the right direction.

But those who don't participate and still complain are like people in a leaking lifeboat who won't bail but just moan about the rising water. If you don't try to change it, why complain, anyway? Why curse the rising water when you won't even try to stop it?

David

Mike Sigman
11-20-2008, 10:08 AM
due to fear of being seen as yet another passive aggressive Aikido guy... :p Not to mention "ardent liberal", getting back to the thread. I had a friend of mine tell me that in his dojo there are two guys who are Republicans and no one will even speak to them. I had to laugh out loud. You can't get anymore "aiki" than that. ;)

Actually I just skimmed the thread and couldn't see a coherent line of thought, but I thought that at a minimum my momma would have wanted me to defend the saintly family name. :)

Mike

Keith Larman
11-20-2008, 11:39 AM
Years ago I was eating a very late night dinner after a long practice with a couple guys. One very liberal compatriot was arguing with another very conservative one. They were getting hot and heated as I was trying to enjoy my very tasty Gai Kua (Thai sp?) and Thai beer. So I added my thoughts to the discussion.

"The only obvious solution is to kill all extremists."

They both said "YES!", paused, then looked at each other.

The rest of the evening we talked about non-political things...

It worked on so many levels for me...

:D

Mike Sigman
11-20-2008, 11:46 AM
Years ago I was eating a very late night dinner after a long practice with a couple guys. One very liberal compatriot was arguing with another very conservative one. They were getting hot and heated as I was trying to enjoy my very tasty Gai Kua (Thai sp?) and Thai beer. So I added my thoughts to the discussion.

"The only obvious solution is to kill all extremists."

They both said "YES!", paused, then looked at each other.

The rest of the evening we talked about non-political things...

It worked on so many levels for me...

:DPerfect.

Mike

Toby Threadgill
11-20-2008, 04:06 PM
Hummm,

Interesting is the subject of the foibles of the American electorate.

Although most voters are responsible and patriotic, some voters:

Demonstrate a lack of familiarity with facts.

Demonstrate an almost delusional belief in falsehood that reinforces an underlying individual prejudice.

Demonstrate an aversion to grasping the concept or value of compromise.

Demonstrate an overwhelming sense of unbridled cynicism.

As a result some voters base their choices on falsehood, prejudice or a rigid and unrealistic expectation unconnected to competence.

Then, some Americans don't vote at all simply because they're lazy, crippled by cynicism or just don't care. And lastly are those who don't vote because they don't think their vote will count.

(Many in that last group stepped up to the plate this time because they recognized a fundamental change in our nation was afoot.)

____________

An interesting phenomenon of a voting society is that some voters are so entrenched in their rigid view of reality that they cannot grasp abstract concepts like compromise or making a general choice based on numerous complex topics. These voters tend to make a choice based on one topic, ignoring all others. These "litmus test" voters are usually extremely rigid individuals who embrace regressive self-reinforcing moral positions. It should be noted that such individuals are not well suited for any undertaking that requires negotation, compromise or a sense of empathy. They cannot see the world beyond the blinders they wear because they view the world, society and morality in extremes. Their individual experience is so dominating a force in their construction of reality that they cannot imagine themselves in the shoes of another person whose experiences are totally outside their own. Some sociologists say such individuals sometime suffer from a mild version of the social dysfunction found in suicidal religious extremists who view their own group or individual version of morality as exclusive to all others. Other sociologists also include social introverts who limit their exposure to the outside world based on the fear of things they don't understand.

Whatever the reason's, I'm glad these voters were not a large enough force in this years election to effect the outcome because when they are, the rest of us tend to suffer the consequences.

FWIW... I think our president-elect demonstrated aplomb during this hard fought and increasingly nasty campaign. Whether you choose to call it political aikido or just good old fashioned "smarts" I think he will serve us much better than any one else I can think of.....Including any of our resident cynics.

Toby Threadgill

Mike Sigman
11-20-2008, 04:35 PM
Whether you choose to call it political aikido or just good old fashioned "smarts" I think he will serve us much better than any one else I can think of.....Including any of our resident cynics.And even if he doesn't, he can always appoint Sandy Berger as the head of the National Archives, in case the are any formal investigations. :D

Let's just wait and see what happens. I suspect it's all going to be interesting. If nothing else, the press will be continuously positive regardless of whatever happens for a few years, so that will be a relief.

Mike

Toby Threadgill
11-20-2008, 05:39 PM
And even if he doesn't, he can always appoint Sandy Berger as the head of the National Archives, in case the are any formal investigations. :D

Yeah ol' "Oop's! What's that in my pocket" Sandy Berger

Not exactly as ubiquitous on the news circuit as he used to be?

LOL.....

Toby

hapkidoike
11-23-2008, 10:36 PM
You want someone to GIVE you what you need or want?

You have to MAKE it, friend.

Maybe 'give' was the wrong word. 'Present' might have been a better choice. I am not asking to be given smething for nothing. I am asking to be presented with candidates for office who are honest, trustworthy, and reasonable. If there were candidates that met these criteria I would 'give' them my support. I do not expect them to be in line with me ideologically 100% of the time, but I do expect not to be lied to. I really don't think that is so much to ask for.

BTW, I am not your friend, buddy.


I don't agree with you that that was our choice in this election. Could be wrong, but since I live in this country and I'm a citizen and I don't see anywhere on earth that's really better, I think it's my duty to try to elect the best person I can.

And note, I said "the BEST". If I wanted to be negative-minded, I could say "the one who sucks less," but frankly that is a very immature way to view it.


Where do you derive this 'duty' from and to whom do you owe it? Also, why is it automatically an immature view to be negative-minded? If you are going to make a claim like that back it up. If you can't don't say it, it is offensive.


You're wrong there, Isaac. I helped Obama win this election because I trusted him. If he betrays us, I will complain because I helped him and he betrayed me.


But he already lied to (betrayed) all of us, even before you helped him get elected?!?!


. . . rallied behind someone who seemed to represent a new approach to the nation and the world. If it turns out to be false, you'll hear plenty of complaints from me because I earned to right by making an effort to move things in the right direction.

You can not 'earn' a right. Rights are owned by virtue of being human, not for doing the 'right thing' (whatever that means). If he does 'good' then maybe you can be proud of yourself, but if he does 'bad' then would you not have to take some responsibiltiy for putting him in that position? Dosen't the door swing both ways? I am of the belief that by not voting I am doing the 'right thing'. I am making the statement that I have no trust in the system in which the voting occurs or the people trying to work for it. You and others may interpret such a choice as a lack of action, but you would be wrong. I have given the decision much thought. Like Rush says "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice", and they are right. I have made my choice not to support or vote for anybody and I stand by it. I firmly believe that it was the only principled and reasonable thing to do.


Those who don't participate and still complain are like people in a leaking lifeboat who won't bail but just moan about the rising water. If you don't try to change it, why complain, anyway? Why curse the rising water when you won't even try to stop it?
David
First of all, I think the boat sank years ago, and just want people to stop clinging to the wreckage. Second, this seems to me like a false analogy, because you are suggesting that the lack of a physical response to an immediate threat on someones life is akin to a mostly symbolic political action which is not an immediate threat to someones life.

That is all (for now),
bettis

David Orange
11-24-2008, 02:13 PM
Maybe 'give' was the wrong word. 'Present' might have been a better choice.

Makes more sense.

I am not asking to be given smething for nothing. I am asking to be presented with candidates for office who are honest, trustworthy, and reasonable.

Well, no one is perfect and someone is going defame anyone who runs for public office. So unless you have access to some literal gods for office, I'm afraid we're stuck with humans and the choice IS going to remain between two (or more) imperfect human beings. That's the reality of the situation. That's what we must deal with or DON'T deal with it--in which case, why complain?

If there were candidates that met these criteria I would 'give' them my support. I do not expect them to be in line with me ideologically 100% of the time, but I do expect not to be lied to. I really don't think that is so much to ask for.

Not too much to ask for, but very unrealistic to expect it.

I'm not in favor of being lied to, but there's a wide range of "not meeting your expectations" that may or may not amount to "lying" to you. You can't know what goes on in the Oval Office, what facts and situations are presented to a President, what decisions and compromises he MUST make from day to day. I very seriously doubt that YOU could get through a month without disappointing someone to the degree that they would say you "lied" to them. So how do you expect the President of one of the most powerful nations on earth to do that?

I just don't want him to be a naive fool in office or a sociopathic user, or an out-and-out lying manipulator, and I don't think Obama is any of those things. I also think he will have a much better overall effect on the United States than McCain and (shudder) Palin would have. I believed that so strongly I felt I HAD to vote for Obama and I am very happy with the result so far.

BTW, I am not your friend, buddy.

Well, I am not your buddy, pal.

Where do you derive this 'duty' from and to whom do you owe it?

I derive it from, as I said: "since I live in this country and I'm a citizen and I don't see anywhere on earth that's really better, I think it's my duty to try to elect the best person I can." I owe it to my daughters and my son and to myself. If I just sit back and let whomever elect whomever, then I just have to accept "whatever" comes along. Otherwise is nothing but "whining" because I made no effort, and if the person who was elected without my participation saddles my children and theirs with debt or more odious obligations and fewer freedom, then I deserve their scorn in my old age. I want them to have a nation at least as free as the one I grew up in, which we do NOT have now and I am hoping that 2008 will mark the turning point from which we begin to regain some of the value that has been lost due to bad electoral decisions.

Also, why is it automatically an immature view to be negative-minded? If you are going to make a claim like that back it up. If you can't don't say it, it is offensive.

I don't think it's "automatically" immature to be negative-minded but I do think it's pretty much always destructive and that it weakens the one with the negative attitude. Read Tohei.

But he already lied to (betrayed) all of us, even before you helped him get elected?!?!

See comments above. I can't claim to know everything in this matter and I also don't think Presidents have always gotten warrants for everything they wanted done. I used to work with a retired Secret Service man. He was having some issues with some of the people below him. He told me, "I've managed men all my life--most of them with Masters and Doctorate degrees, whose job was to do things without anyone's ever finding out about it."

Further, my alternative to Obama was McCain (or Clinton) and I still believe he was the best pick available. If Jesus had been on the ballot, I'm sure I would have voted for Him, but alas....

You can not 'earn' a right. Rights are owned by virtue of being human, not for doing the 'right thing' (whatever that means). If he does 'good' then maybe you can be proud of yourself, but if he does 'bad' then would you not have to take some responsibiltiy for putting him in that position?

Absolutely. And I would complain like heck. But YOU are also responsible for his being in office as well because you could have voted against him and you did NOT. So you get the responsibility for the evil, but not the "privilege" of complaining about it because with your silence, you said, "I'll take 'whatever'."

Dosen't the door swing both ways? I am of the belief that by not voting I am doing the 'right thing'. I am making the statement that I have no trust in the system in which the voting occurs or the people trying to work for it.

If you have that little faith and respect, then you should find another country to live in, shouldn't you?

You and others may interpret such a choice as a lack of action, but you would be wrong. I have given the decision much thought. Like Rush says "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice", and they are right. I have made my choice not to support or vote for anybody and I stand by it. I firmly believe that it was the only principled and reasonable thing to do.

You support "whomever" with your taxes and if they ever reinstate the draft, you may support "whomever" and "whatever" with your blood--willingly or not. Why stay here if it's so evil? You're supporting the evil by living here and paying taxes to the corrupt system.

I think the boat sank years ago, and just want people to stop clinging to the wreckage.

...but you are clinging to the wreckage by taking whatever good you can find in such a corrupt system and paying your taxes to it. You don't make any action to correct the system, so I hardly see that as "principled" in any way.

Second, this seems to me like a false analogy, because you are suggesting that the lack of a physical response to an immediate threat on someones life is akin to a mostly symbolic political action which is not an immediate threat to someones life.

The President has the power to send citizens to death and to kill the citizens of other nations. If you don't see an immediate threat to anyone's life in a Presidential election, you're not looking very carefully or thinking very clearly. If you don't act at ALL--not even to try to choose "the one who sucks LESS," you really deserve a nation where it sucks more and more every day.

I don't want a nation like that and I don't want to leave one like that to my children and grandchildren.

David

caelifera
11-25-2008, 08:02 AM
All I can say is...

It's been a long time coming.

John, a LOT of bitterness on both sides from the nature of that campaign. How about this though...

This is one country...why don't we set our previous opinions aside and pull together to make this country work again?

Best,
Ron

This country WAS working.

akiy
11-25-2008, 09:31 AM
Hi folks,

Politics, as always, is bound to raise sensitive issues. Please take care to keep the discussion positive and to treat everyone with respect.

Thank you,

-- Jun

caelifera
11-26-2008, 04:50 PM
If Aikido is about blending and harmonizing, then look at the election results and Obama has achieved that in running a campaign for president of the Unites States of America.

I stood back and looked at my vote selections (I did vote for Obama) in awe at the potential of what could happen. I honestly did not believe that I would see in my lifetime what I saw the other night when Obama won the election. My wife and I were overwhelmed by positive emotions.

I am truly proud to be an American. What has happened has restored my faith in the ability of America to rise above the base tendencies towards hatred, misunderstanding, bigotries and other forms of ignorance. My pride began with McCain's concession speech ( the real McCain emerged again) and went on to Obama's acceptance speech.

Like the higher ideals of Aikido, I sincerely hope that our country can begin to work together again, not based upon the politics of fear that dictated the policies of the administration that is on is way out (NOT SOON ENOUGH).

Marc Abrams

Alright, I'm a bit confused. Aikido is about blending and harmonizing, yes, but why? To protect another human being, right?

Well, doesn't Obama support partial-birth abortions? How is supporting the killing of another human being aikido-y?

This post isn't meant to tear anything (anyone) down, but that's just my cent.

hapkidoike
11-26-2008, 10:51 PM
Well, I am not your buddy, pal.


I'm really glad you caught that. After I posted it I realized how it could have come across. I am taking this off board and sending you a message.


Alright, I'm a bit confused. Aikido is about blending and harmonizing, yes, but why? To protect another human being, right?

You don't get to determine what Aikido is about, without some evidence. Neither can you assert reasons why without evidence. You might be able to suggest that these reasons are why you are into aikido, that is to say making a statement of fact about yourself. But to make a statement of fact about what some concept is and it's purpose is a much different situation.


Well, doesn't Obama support partial-birth abortions? How is supporting the killing of another human being aikido-y?


Why do you define a fetus as a human being? Do you consider a tadpole a frog?
Just sayin,
Bettis

Toby Threadgill
11-26-2008, 11:47 PM
Alright, I'm a bit confused. Aikido is about blending and harmonizing, yes, but why? To protect another human being, right?

Well, doesn't Obama support partial-birth abortions? How is supporting the killing of another human being aikido-y?

This post isn't meant to tear anything (anyone) down, but that's just my cent.

Ms Knowling

Before you get all warm and fuzzy about aikido and universal love I would suggest you go out and actually read about Ueshiba and his benevolent exploits in Manchuria prior to WW2.

As far a Obama goes, a similar education in facts might be in order.

Obama supports the concept of liberty, personal responsibility and a government that stays out of peoples private lives and decision making. Therefore he supports in principle a persons right to make a horrible and drastic medical decision in cooperation with the advice of medical experts. He does not support an intrusive decision enforced by government and instituted those uneducated in the realities of actual medicine.. He also does not support intrusive legislation intended to pander to ignorant religious do-gooders.

Without the option of a late term abortion my sister in-law would have suffered a debilitating stroke and most probably died....She was devastated by the medical reality she faced, which was a choice between bad and horrible. But you see, before Pub.L. 108-105, she enjoyed the LIBERTY of personally making an informed and educated decision based on medical facts presented to her by medical experts. Today, there is no personal liberty involved. The decision is pre-determined by the government without any input by experts educated in medical fact or realities.

See, according to your line of reasoning, 2 deaths are better than one. Right? So, who is more benevolent, you or Obama?

I support the concept of personal liberty. Therefore, I hope Pub.L 108-105 is overturned ASAP and liberty is returned to individuals whose decisions can be based on seeking the advice of medical professionals as opposed to the irresponsible hands of government bureaucrats.

Toby Threadgill

David Orange
11-27-2008, 10:45 AM
This country WAS working.

I don't see how you can say the country WAS working before Obama if you mean "up until the election of Obama."

Do you consider our being bogged down in two wars, the highest unemployment rate in recent history, harsh division of the electorate AND the economy's total down-melting to be "working"?

I don't.

It's worth noting that our recent "bailout" of the financial system almost exactly totaled the cost of our several years in the Iraq war.

And speaking of "How is supporting the killing of another human being aikido-y?" how is the supporting of killing tens of thousands of Iraqi children a symptom of America's "working"? (I estimate tens of thousands of juvenile deaths because even McCain admitted that over 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died since we invaded.)

I doubt anyone here believes that Obama is a magical cure-all for the nation's ills, but I believe he will be a great leader and will readjust many of the inequitable policies and seriously misguided choices of the past eight years that have led us to the point where America is seriously NOT working.

Best to you.

David

David Orange
11-27-2008, 10:52 AM
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, I am not your buddy, pal.

I'm really glad you caught that. After I posted it I realized how it could have come across.

I meant it as a comic rejoinder. Hope that's clear to all.

David

David Orange
11-27-2008, 10:54 AM
As far a Obama goes, a similar education in facts might be in order.


A very nice summation. Thanks for that.

David

Todd Lambert
11-27-2008, 07:21 PM
Let's just wait and see what happens. I suspect it's all going to be interesting. If nothing else, the press will be continuously positive regardless of whatever happens for a few years, so that will be a relief.

Mike
For those interested in the issue of how fair and balanced the press coverage has been regarding Obama and his rival for president, you may find this excellent recap informative.

http://blogd.com/wp/index.php/archives/4888

Kind regards,

Todd

curlytops
12-03-2008, 02:21 AM
Using Aikido to run the government? Cool!

James Davis
12-03-2008, 12:54 PM
Ms Knowling

Before you get all warm and fuzzy about aikido and universal love I would suggest you go out and actually read about Ueshiba and his benevolent exploits in Manchuria prior to WW2.

Aikido did not yet exist at that time. It is my belief that Ueshiba learned much from his experiences with violence in Manchuria, and everywhere else, and that it probably led him to realize the need for Aikido. In my opinion, he got older and smarter and decided to train accordingly. At least, that's based on what I read.


As far a Obama goes, a similar education in facts might be in order.



Obama supports the concept of liberty, personal responsibility and a government that stays out of peoples private lives and decision making. Therefore he supports in principle a persons right to make a horrible and drastic medical decision in cooperation with the advice of medical experts. He does not support an intrusive decision enforced by government and instituted those uneducated in the realities of actual medicine..

These medical experts that offer abortions have something to sell. Billions of dollars worth every year.

He also does not support intrusive legislation intended to pander to ignorant religious do-gooders.


Ignorant. Check.


Without the option of a late term abortion my sister in-law would have suffered a debilitating stroke and most probably died....She was devastated by the medical reality she faced, which was a choice between bad and horrible. But you see, before Pub.L. 108-105, she enjoyed the LIBERTY of personally making an informed and educated decision based on medical facts presented to her by medical experts. Today, there is no personal liberty involved. The decision is pre-determined by the government without any input by experts educated in medical fact or realities.
If my wife were in danger, I would do just about anything to protect her. If any woman's life is truly in danger, and she chooses to end her pregnancy, she may have some explaining to do in the afterlife. I wouldn't give her a hard time about it, though. There are some subtle differences between the statements "If I have this baby, it'll be a huge inconvenience." and "If I have this baby, I could die."

I support a woman's right to do what she believes is right in cases of rape and medical emergency. I also believe in a woman's right to shoot the SOB that's about to attempt raping her. I'm not so sure that Obama would agree with me there...

Most folks that I've spoken with say something similar when discussing their views on abortion. There are rarely absolutes. There are instances where an abortion could save a human life, but that's not what proponents of abortion on demand are looking for.


See, according to your line of reasoning, 2 deaths are better than one. Right? So, who is more benevolent, you or Obama?

Christine said:

"This post isn't meant to tear anything (anyone) down, but that's just my cent."

and that's where the respect seemingly ended.

Ron Tisdale
12-04-2008, 05:45 PM
Most folks that I've spoken with say something similar when discussing their views on abortion. There are rarely absolutes. There are instances where an abortion could save a human life, but that's not what proponents of abortion on demand are looking for.

Humph, I just think a bunch of men have no right telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

Best,
Ron

hapkidoike
12-04-2008, 10:04 PM
Humph, I just think a bunch of men have no right telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

Best,
Ron

That argument is weak. Does a male OBGYN not have the authority to advise a woman about treatments for cervical cancer, or a female surgon somehow unable to preform a vasectomy? Just because you don't belong to a certain 'class' (by class I mean group, not necissarily in the economic sense) does not suggest that you ought not have an opinion about the behaviour or actions of that class. I've never been a coke fiend, am I somehow unqualified to tell my buddy he is screwing up if he becomes a coke fiend.

Just to be clear I am 'pro-choice', I just think this argument is a bit flawed.

peace
Bettis

lbb
12-05-2008, 07:55 AM
That argument is weak. Does a male OBGYN not have the authority to advise a woman about treatments for cervical cancer, or a female surgon somehow unable to preform a vasectomy?

I can't even parse that sentence.

(yay, yay, a religious war, how wonderful!)

David Orange
12-05-2008, 09:26 AM
Humph, I just think a bunch of men have no right telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

Not to mention a potential vice president who wanted to deny abortion rights to young women who had been raped or were the victims of incest.

That sounds pretty gosh-darned absolute to me, you betcha!

David

James Davis
12-05-2008, 12:32 PM
Humph, I just think a bunch of men have no right telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

Best,
Ron
I work next door to an abortion clinic, and I've seen two types of men that were telling women what to do with their bodies. That street goes both ways.

That's the trouble with the whole abortion argument. Some people think that it's a baby, and some don't. Some are fighting for the rights of women, and some are fighting for the rights of babies. Both types of people believe that they are doing the right thing.

It's when the ol' broad brush is whipped out and people on the other side of an issue start getting painted up that things get a little rough.

When people are referred to as "baby killers" or "religious nutjobs",often the listening has ended and the fighting has begun.

People have reasons for the beliefs that they hold dear, regardless of what those beliefs might be.

More patience, and less disrespect and ridicule from both sides, could make things really great on this site. Lashing out when someone hurts you is easy. I've been taught to do it ever since the first time another kid smacked me. It didn't work as well as aikido does.

Rennis Buchner
12-05-2008, 09:40 PM
Obama supports the concept of liberty, personal responsibility and a government that stays out of peoples private lives and decision making.

Reminds me of one of my relatives. My mother's aunt was a nun and eventually the head of the Sister of Norte Dame for, I believe, North America (might have been all of the Americans, It's been several years since I have seen that side of the family) for several years. Her whole family was very religious and several members went on to be nuns. She'd done the whole work in Africa thing and such and eventually was something of a heavy weight in her time, spending a chunk of each year working in Rome where she knew and worked with the pope often. Suffice it to say that to to just about everyone she was about as religious and as good a Christian as they come. Interestingly enough, and shocking to most pro-lifers I have talked to about this, she and the other sisters I had met were all very much pro-choice. Their point of view was that any choice in that regard was a decision between you and God alone and the government had no business getting involved or forcing their religious views onto anyone else.

Random food for thought,
Rennis Buchner

Guilty Spark
12-08-2008, 03:50 AM
If a man and women sleep together and the woman becomes pregnant and wants to keep the baby yet the man wants her to have an abortion and failing that, nothing to do with the baby or mother-should he still have to pay child support?
(IMO, no he shouldn't)

For those of you who say YES he should still pay it's his responsibility etc..etc..(and there will be some) turn it around.
If the mother wants to have an abortion but the father says NO i want this baby- should the woman then be forced to carry the child to term and give it to the father?

Ron Tisdale
12-11-2008, 08:17 AM
Problem is, I never said someone couldn't have an opinion. I'm referring to what for a long time, was a bunch of old, white, men making legislation about the bodies of 55% of the population, who at one point, couldn't even vote.

And you knew that...so let's not let the hyperbole get out of hand. ;)

Best,
Ron
That argument is weak. Does a male OBGYN not have the authority to advise a woman about treatments for cervical cancer, or a female surgon somehow unable to preform a vasectomy? Just because you don't belong to a certain 'class' (by class I mean group, not necissarily in the economic sense) does not suggest that you ought not have an opinion about the behaviour or actions of that class. I've never been a coke fiend, am I somehow unqualified to tell my buddy he is screwing up if he becomes a coke fiend.

Just to be clear I am 'pro-choice', I just think this argument is a bit flawed.

peace
Bettis

Ron Tisdale
12-11-2008, 08:20 AM
When people are referred to as "baby killers" or "religious nutjobs",often the listening has ended and the fighting has begun.

People have reasons for the beliefs that they hold dear, regardless of what those beliefs might be.

Problem is, you quote my statement, and then hyper-inflate it to make it sound like I have any sentiments like those you state above.

I don't. And I didn't mention either of those catch phrases in my statement.

Best,
Ron

James Davis
12-11-2008, 11:43 AM
Problem is, you quote my statement, and then hyper-inflate it to make it sound like I have any sentiments like those you state above.

I don't. And I didn't mention either of those catch phrases in my statement.

Best,
Ron

Sorry. No inflation was intended, especially not hyper-inflation. :)

Only the first paragraph was really meant as a response to your post in particular. In the rest of my post, I was commenting about the tone of some other statements I'd read in this thread.

I can only post during my lunch hour, and am sometimes pressed for time. I find that I'm a bit clumsy with online posting, and I wish we could just talk in person.

Ron Tisdale
12-11-2008, 12:52 PM
Dude, I'm clumsy in person too... :D

I've been doing 14 hour days in networking, level 1, level 2, and design of new projects. I've got visions of subnets dancing in my head. Boy, do I need some sleep.

Understood, and My Bad,
Ron

Toby Threadgill
12-11-2008, 02:05 PM
Aikido did not yet exist at that time. It is my belief that Ueshiba learned much from his experiences with violence in Manchuria, and everywhere else, and that it probably led him to realize the need for Aikido. In my opinion, he got older and smarter and decided to train accordingly. At least, that's based on what I read.

Yes. It is especially illuminating to note that after Ueshiba's troubling exploits in Manchuria the Chinese were going to execute him and Deguchi by firing squad. That sort of thing does tend to have a lasting impact on people.


These medical experts that offer abortions have something to sell. Billions of dollars worth every year.

Irrelevant......The same could be said of the worlds top cardiovascular surgeons and worldwide religion, couldn't it?

If my wife were in danger, I would do just about anything to protect her. If any woman's life is truly in danger, and she chooses to end her pregnancy, she may have some explaining to do in the afterlife. I wouldn't give her a hard time about it, though. There are some subtle differences between the statements "If I have this baby, it'll be a huge inconvenience." and "If I have this baby, I could die."

Commenting on the afterlife is rather presumptious isn't it? You assume "she" views such an abstract concept thru the same moral lens as you do, and that your moral lens is "right". Besides that careless quip, you're basicly making my argument for me.

I support a woman's right to do what she believes is right in cases of rape and medical emergency.

Oooookay....Then you believe Pub L 105-108 should be overturned. I agree.

However....If you're position is, abortion is killing a life, I am perplexed that you appear to justify abortion in the case of rape. Bear with me here......Is it not hypocritical to in effect say that a life created in a rape is less "worthy" of survival than one created in concensual union?

Philosophically, abortion is black or white. A non-viable fetus is either a separate individual or a biological part of the mother. Biologically the either/or question doesn't exist because a non-viable fetus is undeniably a part of the mother. In my opinion and the opinions of most Americans this and similar law should be based on biological fact instead of something so abstract and nebulous as philosophy.

That said, I can respect and at the same time disagree with someone who views all abortion as morally wrong based on the philosophical position that a fetus is a person.. What I can't fathom is the philosophical inconsistency that views a fetus as an individual person and then justifies destroying the fetus because the fetus was conceived in a rape. Such a position is philosophically inconsistent and seems intellectually flawed.....

FWIW....I may be vehemently opposed to the behavior and /or opinions of many Americans but I am just as vehement in my support of their right to hold those opinions and exercise their individual rights in promoting those opinions, as long as the exercise of said rights do not infringe on mine. That is liberty as defined and embraced by our founding fathers. As a supporter of liberty I may or may not not agree with the option of abortion in each individual case but its simply not my decision to make. The exercise of individual liberty concludes that we, as Americans, must let an individiual citizen and her doctors decide what's best for her. Such an immense personal decision should not be left to some legislator or government bureaucrat. Sure, some people will inevitably abuse the system but no system is perfect. The concept of liberty dictates that my rights as well as your rights should end where every other citizens rights begin.....including an individual womans right to make all her personal health decisions without meddling by you, me or the government.

Compromising liberty out of the fear that freedom will lead to the abuse of freedom has been the tool of dictators and a justification for tyranny for centuries. In the opinon of many, legislating control of a womans body is indeed a form of institutional mysoginy and tyranny.

Christine said:

"This post isn't meant to tear anything (anyone) down, but that's just my cent."

and that's where the respect seemingly ended.

Respect? Sorry, but this has nothing to do with respect. I simply refuse to let passive/aggressive statements go unchallenged. Go back and read her post. Christine accuses Obama of supporting the killing of people and then attempts to smooth over her attack by saying she doesn't intend to tear him down. If that is not typically passive/aggressive, I don't know what is.

The topics discussed in this thread are difficult and politically charged. In the past years they have been divisive because the tactics employed by both sides have demonized the other. Obama in my opinion signals the possibility of a more genuine and constructive dialogue. The cynics will continue their diatribe but it is my hope that their voices will be overwhelmed by that of new found optimism and its ensuing successes.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill

James Davis
12-11-2008, 05:40 PM
Commenting on the afterlife is rather presumptious isn't it? You assume "she" views such an abstract concept thru the same moral lens as you do, and that your moral lens is "right".

Notice my use of the word may...


However....If you're position is, abortion is killing a life, I am perplexed that you appear to justify abortion in the case of rape. Bear with me here......Is it not hypocritical to in effect say that a life created in a rape is less "worthy" of survival than one created in concensual union?
I don't say that abortion is a good thing in any case. I'm simply saying that I'm trying to understand what a woman is going through in that instance, and I'll not demonize her regardless of her choice. In my opinion, the rape is not the fault of the unborn child, and so the child should not have to suffer.


Philosophically, abortion is black or white. A non-viable fetus is either a separate individual or a biological part of the mother. Biologically the either/or question doesn't exist because a non-viable fetus is undeniably a part of the mother. In my opinion and the opinions of most Americans this and similar law should be based on biological fact instead of something so abstract and nebulous as philosophy.

Biological fact is that the zygote, embryo, fetus, kid, or whatever else we call it has its own genetic code. This fact doesn't make the decision any easier, but it's part of the whole.


That said, I can respect and at the same time disagree with someone who views all abortion as morally wrong based on the philosophical position that a fetus is a person.. What I can't fathom is the philosophical inconsistency that views a fetus as an individual person and then justifies destroying the fetus because the fetus was conceived in a rape. Such a position is philosophically inconsistent and seems intellectually flawed.....
Some women would give nine months of their life to raise the child, then give it up for adoption. Some would choose to raise the child as their own. Some women couldn't handle doing either of these, and I'm not going to get in their face about the most horrible decision they've ever made in their lives.

Women that use abortion as birth control every few months are an entirely different subject.

FWIW....I may be vehemently opposed to the behavior and /or opinions of many Americans but I am just as vehement in my support of their right to hold those opinions and exercise their individual rights in promoting those opinions, as long as the exercise of said rights do not infringe on mine. That is liberty as defined and embraced by our founding fathers. As a supporter of liberty I may or may not not agree with the option of abortion in each individual case but its simply not my decision to make. The exercise of individual liberty concludes that we, as Americans, must let an individiual citizen and her doctors decide what's best for her. Such an immense personal decision should not be left to some legislator or government bureaucrat. Sure, some people will inevitably abuse the system but no system is perfect. The concept of liberty dictates that my rights as well as your rights should end where every other citizens rights begin.....including an individual womans right to make all her personal health decisions without meddling by you, me or the government.

In the case of Planned Parenthood, often times doctors refuse to show the patient an ultrasound. That's not an educated choice.



Compromising liberty out of the fear that freedom will lead to the abuse of freedom has been the tool of dictators and a justification for tyranny for centuries. In the opinon of many, legislating control of a womans body is indeed a form of institutional mysoginy and tyranny.



Some are just trying to be a voice for kids that can't speak for themselves. No woman should have parenthood forced on her but, in this day and age, there are better ways to prevent parenthood than abortion.


Respect? Sorry, but this has nothing to do with respect. I simply refuse to let passive/aggressive statements go unchallenged. Go back and read her post. Christine accuses Obama of supporting the killing of people and then attempts to smooth over her attack by saying she doesn't intend to tear him down. If that is not typically passive/aggressive, I don't know what is.
Christine stated a fact. Obama supports partial birth abortion. She posed a question as to how this makes him an aikidoka.

In short, she stuck to the topic. Then, there's us, LOL.:D


The topics discussed in this thread are difficult and politically charged. In the past years they have been divisive because the tactics employed by both sides have demonized the other. Obama in my opinion signals the possibility of a more genuine and constructive dialogue. The cynics will continue their diatribe but it is my hope that their voices will be overwhelmed by that of new found optimism and its ensuing successes.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill



More genuine and constructive dialogue is a great idea. Just for the record, us "ignorant religious do-gooders" really are trying to do some good.

Respectfully +1 (Aha!):D

James

Toby Threadgill
12-12-2008, 03:37 PM
More genuine and constructive dialogue is a great idea. Just for the record, us "ignorant religious do-gooders" really are trying to do some good.

Respectfully +1 (Aha!):D

James

James,

Okay....I'll buy that. One do-gooder to another.

Toby Threadgill

Ron Tisdale
12-12-2008, 04:03 PM
Christine stated a fact. Obama supports partial birth abortion. She posed a question as to how this makes him an aikidoka.

Frankly, I personally fail to see how one has anything to do with the other. And I'm not sure *I* even support PBA. But whether someone does or not, does not to me, say anything about whether or not they do aikido.
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
12-12-2008, 04:05 PM
Women that use abortion as birth control every few months are an entirely different subject.

Hmm...

Are there ANY statistics, records or evidence that says that this actually happens? Or is this more hyperbole? Just currious. I honestly don't know (though I tend to doubt it).

B,
R

James Davis
12-12-2008, 04:52 PM
Hmm...

Are there ANY statistics, records or evidence that says that this actually happens? Or is this more hyperbole? Just currious. I honestly don't know (though I tend to doubt it).

B,
R

I haven't personally read any evidence, though I doubt clinics would provide it. I know of one person who engaged in this practice, and I can only assume that she's not the only one in the country that ever has.

Ron Tisdale
12-12-2008, 05:23 PM
She may not be the only one who ever has, but she certainly is the only one *I* have ever heard of.

Seems like an abberation to me...certainly nothing to base an argument on.

Best,
Ron