Dissatisfied with current dojo's training style

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[xmahahdu]

Greetings! This is my first post--not a very nice topic to start my involvement with AikiWeb, but nevertheless.. I've been wandering around the forum for the past several months, anyway.

Getting into the topic... Let me start with one statement:
During first 2 months of my experience with aikido, I've done only 4 chances to complete ikkyo technique properly on someone. :eek:
Yes, that's true. 4 hours a week, and only four ikkyo up to today. I'm dissatisfied with all of training method, style, and environment... I had certain expectation from aikido, and I'm finding something else I didn't expect or want.

So how did I come to do only four ikkyo? Well, I'll start with the training curriculum of the dojo. For the past two months, Monday and Thursday, the first hour was spent for unrealistic hold-escapes that cannot be connected to aikido techniques, and the second hour was for the techniques--without any explanation for the details of movement. Three quick demonstrations, and I was left to be confused and clueless (as everyone else in the dojo was). I had to research and practice irimi, tenkan, irimi tenkan and everything else all by myself, because they were not taught. I've got hold of nikyo and sankyo through research and practice with my roommate who started aikido with me, but never ikkyo. (because ikkyo requires the space for someone to lie down on his stomach...which doesn't exist in my room) We never got into yonkyo and gokyo at all. And for weapon training, my dojo never went into suburi but directly went into kata, both for bokken and jo. Now sensei says that we will go into advanced techniques (which, unsurprisingly, were "application" of aiki taiso series:freaky: ), and will go back to basics only sparingly.

And the curriculum excludes not only the basics, but also sound techniques. I'm absolutely mudansha in every martial art, and I am physically weak, but I must say I have a good grasp of what type of body movement works, and I can tell it at one glance. I've owned several black belts in TKD sparring on the second day I tried TKD, just for the side information. :p
For example, I was told to make "a small circle" (would someone be able to recognize the current style I'm in, just from this phrase? :p ) with uke's hand while I'm standing upright in the end of shihonage. It never worked, leaving confused me and even more confused uke who stood there for 3 seconds and then suddenly jumped backward to the ground on her own.:confused: Through endless research, the completely opposite answer came out: lift the locked arm as if lifting the katana, causing uke to float, and cut down in whole-body motion (arigato gozaimashita, Shioda sensei!). It suddenly made sense: Daito ryu was based on the sword art! Then the thought came into my mind, why be obsessed with "small circle" dancing that professes to be practically quick and actually is nonpractical, when there's a proper way to use your muscle? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to "ki" explanation…)

Another example: I was taught to use "hand-waving" in front of uke's face when doing iriminage(or kokyunage, as it is called here). Of course it doesn't work. First, nobody feels threatened enough by that to lose his or her balance, and second, when you are far enough to use your hand to wave, uke's center is far far away from your center. When I resorted to secure uke's chin in front of my shoulder, as every reputable sensei here in AikiWeb suggested about the technique (yes, I do use search function), I was told not to. Why? Because it's a "different style".

Yet another example: my sensei taught sankyo as if it is a wristlock that can end the situation—just grab sankyo hold and bring that bad guy to police station! The thing is, I've read somewhere in AikiWeb about a police officer who thought the same thought and was basically owned by the lumberjack he tried to subdue (it was a link to a journal article). To my understanding, sankyo is a technique of kuzushi, destabilizing through floating, as nikyo is for destabilizing through sinking, not a permanent solution like ikkyo…or am I wrong? Then please correct me. That's the impression I got from Shioda sensei's books, anyway.

And yet another example: shomenuchi ikkyo. I was taught to stay there (as mentioned before, there's no care about irimi when receiving the attack), wait until it falls onto my head, receive it with slight bend of knee, and then do the ikkyo with the grabbed arm. Problem #1. Why wait when you can irimi toward the attack and kuzushi the uke, safely pre-empting the attack? Problem #2. I'm bending my knee with pressure on my head, so I'm unbalanced, and uke is perfectly balanced. Problem #3. Shomenuchi is basically sword attack. Would you like to stay there and then block it with your arms? Cuz I don't. ;)

And yet another example: when the topic was ushiro mawari(or ushiro ryotedori jutai, in Aikikai terminology) ikkyo, I was taught to turn my body toward the first-grabbed hand as soon as one hand is grabbed, not waiting for the second grab, and do the ikkyo from behind the uke, following the rotation of uke behind him. And guess what? Didn't work. And I know the reason why it does not work. First, I have to turn at least 270 degree in a quick turn, in order to get from the front of uke to the back of uke's arm, and that's only considering that uke is not moving after grabbing. (if he's keep trying to grab my other arm, the chase begins—and the faster person wins, not the technically-proficient person.) Second, uke is not subjected to kuzushi (he's totally balanced), so I can't do ikkyo on him. Third, if the other target hand disappears due to my turning, the natural thing for uke is to stop attacking, and I cannot force him to move. And fourth, the uke at the time was a guy who simply stops attack midway through when I start the technique, drives me insane, and says with a big nice grin, "that doesn't work". :freaky: I was tired at the fifteenth try and used the method in Stenudd sensei's video. Finally it worked. And I was told by sensei I was wrong. Wrong for not doing the given thing—which was impossible for me. I stood there skeptical, and sensei decided to give me some faith, so he tried that technique on my uke. My uke faithfully resisted his technique as he did with mine, and it took four full 360 degree turns for my sensei to finally bring the uke down. Then my sensei smiled and said, "See, it works." :freaky:

And to be fair, I had more chance than four times to execute ikkyo, of course. I must admit I was not skillful to get the technique working, so some part's definitely my fault. (But then again, who can jump up and start doing ikkyo when one was simply shown the technique for only a handful of times?) But one thing I know: ikkyo does not work with kuzushi—that is, it does not work when uke is stable. Whenever I try to practice ikkyo, the situation usually belongs to either one of the followings. First, I am told to do the impossible, as in the above case—kuzushi-less technique. Second, uke flaunts his or her diving skill (and it's ikkyo, mind you). Third, uke fully resists in the middle of the technique (usually when bending over), saying "I feel too tired to go down" or "okay, it works, now the other side" (and most of them are tired enough to bring me fully down to the ground and do the pins when they are nage… tempting me to do Ikkajo Ippondori-style atemi and spearlike-arm-shoving when they become resisting uke again :D ).

Am I an ego-bloated noob who think he knows everything? Maybe. But I don't intend to say I am holier than anyone else in my dojo. I simply want to learn the right thing, what I rightfully expect from martial art dojo, not dancing class or religious chapel. In my dojo, there's a guy from Yoshokai who had 6 years of training there. His technique works beautifully. Whenever my technique does not work, he advises me to change the angle of my posture slightly, and it works magically. (I consider him almost as a second sensei in the dojo :) ) Aikido is budo, "martial way" (If not, why O-sensei wrote the book "Budo"?). I came to aikido because I am not into brutal bone-bashing. And I believe aikido here, in where I am, is anything but martial. I might be too paranoid, but to my experience, harmony without strength sometimes simply does not work. I had hard time for nearly a decade through my school years (does anyone here know the Japanese word "ijime"?). I firmly believe in Nishio sensei's words that aikido is the way to warn and lead the violator of harmony to proper conduct through martial supremacy. Speaking of ki, spirituality, harmony (all the things prominent in my current dojo)—I'm not saying they are completely useless. They are useless only when it dominates everything else, martial aspect/sound technique/self-defense etc. Uke blends with nage's throw. The real attacker doesn't. What happens when spirituality takes over martial art? An ugly dance and a bunch of dancers who think they can subdue a robber without laying a hand on him…

Some might want to say "stop grumbling at not-your-dojo, go and join YOUR dojo." I believe they are saying the right thing. What rights do I have on dojo that is not operated by me? But the other nearest dojo is 3-hour-drive away, and I'm only a poor international student without car. Nearest Yoshinkan-style dojo, which I believe to be one that might satisfy my thirst for strong and valid technical basis, is almost half a continent away. And I like my sensei. He is a nice, friendly guy, having lots of things to learn from. That's why I do not post any information of the dojo. I'm left with love of aikido and disillusion of unfeasible training…

Phew! That was long. I apologize if my tone was too self-righteous or flame-throwing. I just wanted to let it all out, what is bottled up in the bottom of my heart, to people who know and care about aikido… Thank you. Please correct me about techniques I've discussed here if you disagree. I would be happy to learn. Just to add a little direction to "discussion"... how's your training in detail? Have you ever felt that it is not feasible? How do you react when that happens? (or do you not expect any "feasibility" and instead look for spiritual value? I agree to disagree on this part... whether I agree or disagree with your approach to aikido does not change the fact that you are facing aikido as sincerely as I do. Each to his/her own.)

Domo arigato gozaimashita.

[Flintstone]

Only two months?

[xmahahdu]

Only two months?

Can you clarify it more? Economy of words usually leads to proliferation of misunderstanding:freaky:

Is it that I am impatient to complain about not learning the proper technique after only two months? Or that I am not qualified to talk about technique or training method? I believe two months is enough time for one to get an idea or two about the training environment. And I believe not learning basic is enough reason to complain about. Imagine if you are taking Karate, and your teacher put you directly into kata and kumite without properly explaning basic punch, block, kicks, footworks, and stances. :D

If it was neither, and was meant to be a neutral question affirming the duration of times I learned aikido, I apologize.

[Mary Eastland]

So leave....
Mary

[B.J.M.]

Lots of Aikido dojo's and lots of different ways to train.

It's a good idea to watch a couple of classes at a dojo first before signing up; especially a basics class, (if they have one).

Talk to the sensei there, better yet, talk with the students. How the senior students move and behave on the mat will give you a good idea about the type of training that goes on at that school.

Two months of training, huh. I have been training for ten years without a break and I still feel like an absolute rank beginner, which is a good sign. Oh, I still haven't learned how to do ikkyo correctly either. Guess I better keep training.........

Basically, you aren't going to, realistically speaking, going to "get" a technique in Aikido in two months.

Find a good school, a good teacher, and train. Just train.

Good luck.

[xmahahdu]

Lots of Aikido dojo's and lots of different ways to train.

It's a good idea to watch a couple of classes at a dojo first before signing up; especially a basics class, (if they have one).

Talk to the sensei there, better yet, talk with the students. How the senior students move and behave on the mat will give you a good idea about the type of training that goes on at that school.

Two months of training, huh. I have been training for ten years without a break and I still feel like an absolute rank beginner, which is a good sign. Oh, I still haven't learned how to do ikkyo correctly either. Guess I better keep training.........

Basically, you aren't going to, realistically speaking, going to "get" a technique in Aikido in two months.

Find a good school, a good teacher, and train. Just train.

Good luck.

Shoshin... that's what I've been forgetting. Thank you. :)
I agree I am too nervous about not getting it right, but I didn't expect to "get" it just in the snap of the eye... I just wanted to practice in a way that I could get it after many years(however long it takes), without building bad habit(no footwork or forcing the technique, to name a few).

And still, I can get at least a glimpse of how correct technique works, can't I? For example, I can already put a working nikyo confidently on my uke when it's katadori or katatedori, though I know I'm far from making the movement totally mine.

As for training... I've been doing thousand (sometimes up to two thousand) suburi everyday combined with various footworks, and understand what you mean by "keep training"... The improvement is extremely gradual, but perceptible. Just to tell you that I'm not one of all-for-words-and-none-for-action...:)

[Voitokas]

It is too bad that there are no other dojo around for you to try! (Although I agree with Brent that two months is too early to accept frustration). Are there any nice sempai who might work with you before or after class or during open-mat? This is sometimes the best way to learn techniques when they don't come around a lot in regular class (and a good way to get to know your fellow aikidoka).

Give it a few more months? Best of luck...

[xmahahdu]

It is too bad that there are no other dojo around for you to try! (Although I agree with Brent that two months is too early to accept frustration). Are there any nice sempai who might work with you before or after class or during open-mat? This is sometimes the best way to learn techniques when they don't come around a lot in regular class (and a good way to get to know your fellow aikidoka).

Give it a few more months? Best of luck...

Thank you! The good thing is, although I might be frustrated, I don't have any thought on giving it up anytime soon within next four year of my college. I often change techniques to make it work while sensei is not looking, and not all techniques are unfeasible--I have a lot to learn. Even those unfeasible gives me a sense of proper technique--what not to do. :D If something's not working, I have plenty of resources to refer to, such as Total Aikido, which I can study and then make it work at the next class' review time. And not to forget the nice sempai from Yoshokai whom I mentioned above.

[Ketsan]

Please believe me when I say I am have no intention to belittle you here. I have been where you are and I have also seen things from the other side of the coin.

Empty your cup. "I had certain expectation from aikido, and I'm finding something else I didn't expect or want."

After two months you don't even know what Aikido is but you're trying to hammer Aikido so that it fits into your expectations and that really isn't going to work.

There's a story I like about a man that goes off to Shaolin to learn Kung Fu. For a year his teacher just has him slapping water in barrels. Every day he fills the barrels and slaps them until they're empty. Eventually he gets grumpy because he believes he's not being taught properly so the teacher sends him home to see his family.

Of course his family want to see what he's learned in the year he's been away. He tells them that he's learned nothing, they don't believe him and keep pestering to demonstrate what he knows.
Eventually he looses his temper and slaps the kitchen table, which is a well built oak table, breaking it in half.

The point being that the teacher knew what he was doing even though the student didn't. In fact the student wasn't even aware of what he was being taught. No doubt though the student had all kinds of ideas about what the teacher should have been teaching until he slapped the table and realised what he had been taught.

[xmahahdu]

Please believe me when I say I am have no intention to belittle you here. I have been where you are and I have also seen things from the other side of the coin.

Empty your cup. "I had certain expectation from aikido, and I'm finding something else I didn't expect or want."

After two months you don't even know what Aikido is but you're trying to hammer Aikido so that it fits into your expectations and that really isn't going to work.

There's a story I like about a man that goes off to Shaolin to learn Kung Fu. For a year his teacher just has him slapping water in barrels. Every day he fills the barrels and slaps them until they're empty. Eventually he gets grumpy because he believes he's not being taught properly so the teacher sends him home to see his family.

Of course his family want to see what he's learned in the year he's been away. He tells them that he's learned nothing, they don't believe him and keep pestering to demonstrate what he knows.
Eventually he looses his temper and slaps the kitchen table, which is a well built oak table, breaking it in half.

The point being that the teacher knew what he was doing even though the student didn't. In fact the student wasn't even aware of what he was being taught. No doubt though the student had all kinds of ideas about what the teacher should have been teaching until he slapped the table and realised what he had been taught.

Another lesson of life.. Another moment to review myself.
Thank you. :) I should put my ego aside and learn to learn...

[Toby Bazarnick]

Another lesson of life.. Another moment to review myself.
Thank you. :) I should put my ego aside and learn to learn...
It's natural to be impatient - part of the game.

When you have to be self-critical, my recommendation is to beat yourself up over easier techniques than ikkyo. That technique is the most difficult/elegant movement in aikido.

Once your ikkyo "works" tell me where your teaching and I'll come join your dojo.

[Voitokas]

Yeah - we're only allotted one golden ikkyo out of a few hundred at first, so it may be a while. But the first time you do it perfectly (by accident, and with no idea how), you're hooked on trying to find it again. I think that as we get better they come more and more often, but I'll have to get back to you on that one in twenty-five years:) [For what it's worth, when the good ikkyo fairy does visit, uke's balance is completely taken from nage's entrance. Sometimes it's better not to analyse techniques as we learn them, but rather just let the pattern make a home in our body - for me anyway.] Have fun!

[Amir Krause]

Had there been another Dojo around, I would have recomended you to go there and learn. By now, you dislike the current dojo and will not learn there. I do not know if it is the teachers fault, or yours, or just a lack of matching. All are possible, and you are far from being qualified or experianced enough to give a realistic evaluation. But this is the situation.

As it is, I still suggest that you go and learn another M.A. from a teacher you will learn from. It will be better for you, even if you will decide to continue with Aikido in 4 years.

Just to add a little direction to "discussion"... how's your training in detail? Have you ever felt that it is not feasible? How do you react when that happens? (or do you not expect any "feasibility" and instead look for spiritual value?

I was extremely lucky and found a great teacher, at least for me. Even today, over 15 yrs later, I study with him.
So, I did not have any of your problems.

When I thin a technique is not feasible, I will ask Sensei about this. He may show me it works, and I mis understood someting. At times, he may tell me there is a different methodical purpose for the practiceor show me the missing peice left untaught and he explains his reason in leaving it out to me (as a lesson in how I should teach).

From this point of view, I could think of multiple situations giving you that impression. From a teacher who does not know Aikido at all (maybe even learnt with a fake teacher), to a great teacher working in a very methodical way and a student who insists on running ahead prematurly.

Good luck

Amir

[Nick P.]

Frustration is good.
Putting it aside and remembering you are there to learn is better.

Do you trust the teacher?
If the answer is anything less than a solid "Yes", do youself a favor and begin looking elsewhere for a new teacher.

But, as mentionned above, your cup must be empty there as well.

[Larry Cuvin]

Sak,
After going through different techniques trying to learn the correct way, you will definitely come across a whole bunch of different way how not to do it because it doesn't work. At some point, you'll get this "aha" moment where the moons and the stars line up and the technique works. You savor the moment and commit the things you did right to memory, and do it again and again. Just keep in mind that no matter how polished and effective your technique is, there is always room for improvement. As far as practice is concerned: practice does not make perfect...only perfect practice makes perfect. Have someone who knows show or correct you.
Looks like you've had some other martial arts training before so like Alex said "empty your cup" and be an interested beginner.
Good luck.

[Flintstone]

Can you clarify it more? Economy of words usually leads to proliferation of misunderstanding:freaky:

Is it that I am impatient to complain about not learning the proper technique after only two months? Or that I am not qualified to talk about technique or training method? I believe two months is enough time for one to get an idea or two about the training environment. And I believe not learning basic is enough reason to complain about. Imagine if you are taking Karate, and your teacher put you directly into kata and kumite without properly explaning basic punch, block, kicks, footworks, and stances. :D

If it was neither, and was meant to be a neutral question affirming the duration of times I learned aikido, I apologize.
What I meant is that two months is not enough time to find out what Aikido is all about. Or at least your Sensei's Aikido.

I've been there couple of times, and I changed dojos. Now, every now and then I go to train in the old dojo and learn new things.

I began in an all-too-soft-very-often-unrealistic style dojo. After one year I become frustrated because techniques were not working (read they were hard to grasp), so I changed to a "hard style (whatever that means)" dojo where I'm still training. Much easier to learn, much more "realistic (same applies here)". Now when I train in the old gym I get things faster, and guess what, some things are coming to have more sense. A lot of it, actually.

Shoshin. Yes. That's the key. And a bit of shock therapy too.

Best.

[C. David Henderson]

Sak,
...At some point, you'll get this "aha" moment where the moons and the stars line up and the technique works. ... As far as practice is concerned: practice does not make perfect...only perfect practice makes perfect.


I agree with this whole post; but this particular portion reminded me why I sometimes think to myself, "Grace beats perfection; grace happens when I'm not grasping for it."

The empty cup gets a splash of something fine, from who knows where.

Naturally I want more of that taste, and try to recreate what just happened.

Naturally it doesn't taste quite the same, even if repitition contributes alot to actual learning (though often not in the way I thought it should).

But these moments do arrive from time to time. I find them sublime.

DH

[SeiserL]

If I felt that much frustration, I would leave.
If my student had that much frustration, I would encourage them to leave.
If its not a match, its not a match.
Why vent? Accept and act accordingly.

[xmahahdu]

After a night's sleep, I could think more clearly. And I regret it. Why didn't I slept over it?

Tiny bits of frustration have been boggling my mind ever slowly building up... Leading to one stressful day's thoughtless, compulsive blurting out...

I apologize to everyone who read my childish venting.
I will take this as a pivot for me to grow up as a person...

I wouldn't say I am that frustrated as everyone thinks... Actually, I'm usually happy and content with current training.
Then I become overly enthusiastic and perfectionistic, extremely stressed out at not-working technique, at diving uke who makes sensei's demonstration unclear, at resisting uke who wouldn't let me do the technique for once, etc.. I'm afraid to pull back the class schedule by asking same technique for weeks, for most people are sempai who are eager to learn something else. (it's club dojo, and nearly everyone else has dropped out in the middle of the semester, leaving only me and two other newcomers.) And for ukemi, I don't know how to tell sempai "can you resist a little when receiving sensei's technique, not falling down before the technique actually went into effect?" without creating any hard feeling or finding myself in the lecture of "no resistance in aikido"...

And I try to learn as someone who knows less than everyone else. I try.
But you see, I am a Doubting Thomas by nature, and I can't help but question what is given, instead of receiving it non-judgementally. For example, after I read Homma sensei's "No Suwariwaza techniques at Nippon Kan" and corresponding forum article here, I did some research, and found out that my sensei's sensei indeed had shoulder injury that limited his range of movement. Since then, he taught extremely small movements as "better working and more efficient." So, whose words are right?

I had nobody to ask about these kind of things, and had I have a chance to ask it to someone who does not see me as a heretic for doubting the instruction and does have expertise with objectivity to answer it correctly, I would have been content, knowing which way to go. (I'm a remnant of asian education, so I'm always afraid to ask questions, lest I am punished for asking "stupid" things.) Even if I'm doing it wrong, as long as I know what is right, it wouldn't matter. But I don't know which way should I go, and everyone including myself is pushing me to choose one or another...

Now I know that the problem is within me. And I think it is better for me to harmonize than to try and find others who can harmonize to me. Now I'll take some time to sit down and to think how I can change... Thank you, everyone.

p.s. Would someone please advise or answer my curiosities about things I mentioned, such as nikyo/sankyo as kuzushi or small movement's efficiency/inefficiency? I know many people would just say "practice, and you'll understand" but as Mr. Cuvin said, only perfect practice makes perfect.. It would become completely different practice if I practice sankyo as kuzushi or as wristlock.

[C. David Henderson]

Sak,

Please allow me to offer a response to one of your questions -- if you resist a sempai's technique, it may, depending on the circumstances, be unsafe for you.

P.S. I don't think you need to apologize for anything.

[lbb]

Actually, I'm usually happy and content with current training.
Then I become overly enthusiastic and perfectionistic

Your techniques will never be perfect. I'm surprised that you didn't learn that in the first week of TKD. Let it go.

[Janet Rosen]

My understanding of at least one high ranking USA instructor's focus on large movements is that he felt it was easier for beginners to see and do.
Since all of it is based on the hips, center, and weighting, to some degree "small vs large" arm movements shouldn't really matter. Personally, as an older person, I prefer smaller more economic movements that are energy-efficient and closer to natural body movement. YMMV.

[DonMagee]

I just have a few things to add.

My ikkyo works. It took me 3 or 4 years of trying it, but the last few weeks I've got a lot of guys in bjj class with it during sparing. My secret, I stop trying to do an ikkyo and I start trying to push their elbow though their face (ok, more to it then that, but that is how I stumbled on my solution). It's not pretty, but it gets the job done.

Have you discussed your questions with your instructor? You should feel free to ask him simply and politely, "why?". Don't settle for because, press the issue. However, be prepared to be able to explain why you feel the other way works. Its like I tell my computer students, there is no reason to explain why my way is better if their entire reasoning for their way is simply "The internet told me to do it this way".

Maybe aikido is not what you really want, just what you think you want. You said you tried TKD and found it lacking. You also said you do not enjoy bone on bone. That makes me think you are looking for grappling arts. I suggest maybe trying a judo, jujutsu, or bjj school. See if their method of practice is what you are after. I tell you this because some people just respond better to some times of training methods. For example, I have to spar full on to learn a technique. I can drill all you want, but I can never pull it off until I spar and attempt it a lot in sparing. I get the same results if I drill it a handful of times or for a month. But I know a few guys who have much greater success though just drilling. If they drill like me and then spar they fail, but if they drill like no tomorrow then spar it works for them.

This is similar to how fighters adopt their tactics and techniques. I recently had a training partner comment how he learns better from another student rather than from me because that student fights like he fights. I know exactly what he means. He is fast and explosive, very open with lots of space. I am slow and calculating, I close the space carefully and remove all of it (the space). Then I isolate and finish. My setups are not going to be much use for him. They way I control an attacker will not really lend itself to how he attacks a controlled attacker. I respect that while I may be higher rank than him with more experience, I can not instructor him better then his other training partner, who is just as experienced as I, but with a style better fitting of his personality and body type. I guess I just don't believe in that Japanese idea of uniformity in everything.

Maybe you might just find something else you enjoy, or maybe you will find out how much you love your aikido school. Maybe you will find out you need both. In all those cases however, to properly learn you are going to need to as a previous poster said, empty your cup. That said, the proof is in the pudding. If you genuinely try it their way and you can't get it to work, then you are justified in asking why. If everything I know about holding a pin says I need to keep my hips low, and a new teacher tells me to keep them high, I'm going to test it. But I'm also going to ask why this is not working. However, I'm also trained well enough to allow myself that room and take my whoopin when I'm wrong.

[Voitokas]

Although, being more experienced, Don might feel comfortable asking directly, a few months might not be long enough to have practised before breaking protocol. I think that I would wait it out rather than confronting your sensei about why you haven't found the techniques yet. Like, a year, at least, and maybe more! (Annoying advice, I know, but if you're looking for self-defence in a hurry without any philosophy or practise behind it, you could buy some pepper spray or a gun...). Based on some of the things you wrote in your original post, I wonder if you might have too fixed an idea of what you want aikido to be. I agree with Larry and David and Alejandro about trying to meet your teacher's interpretation of the art with no preconception. You could ditch it if it's not what you want, but I think you should stick with it! And I wouldn't try sparring much in the first couple of years (release the flames!:D ); you can get some bad habits going with what works off the right off the bat rather than learning the techniques the slow-but-right way. Try to smile more on the mat, too - it'll make you feel better!:)

[ChrisHein]

If you find a teacher you believe in, do whatever he says. It doesn't matter if you think it's good way to train or not, he knows more then you, he is the teacher, you are the student.

If you don't believe in your teacher, leave. If you don't believe in him, he cannot teach you anything. You are wasting your time, and his.

There is really nothing more to say on that subject.

[xmahahdu]

Thank you many times for those who gave me advice, technical(I'll experiment with whole body movement and ikkyo based on those advises) or otherwise. It was helpful shaping my stance of mind relaxed and open.

I'm trying to change. I already gave up my expectation, and I will try to learn what my teacher gives me with whole belief. I already stated that in the previous posts(as my mind gradually changed), and everybody's point was valid on the matter. I appreciate it.

But even after I stated my change, I keep stumbling upon posts that say I should simply drop out. Mostly before I stated my intention to change, but the opinion is still out there. I know it was not intended to be animosity but to be sincere opinion, and I also understand my baubling was not an acceptable type that deserves warm good-luck (another thousand thanks to those who nevertheless gave me courage to go on). But everytime I see them, the overwhelming feeling from them is one of discouragement... I believe everyone had newbie time :) and many would understand that uncertainty the newbies have.. And how one feels when one's fallen into a hole and people begin to throw stones into the hole in order to encourage one to move and get out of it... Like when I was sincerely trying to get the technique while pausing time to time to see how others do, and my sensei stopped me altogether and advised me to simply watch in seiza throughout the practice(it was not too long from when I started aikido)...

[Amir Krause]

Thank you many times for those who gave me advice, technical(I'll experiment with whole body movement and ikkyo based on those advises) or otherwise. It was helpful shaping my stance of mind relaxed and open.

I'm trying to change. I already gave up my expectation, and I will try to learn what my teacher gives me with whole belief. I already stated that in the previous posts(as my mind gradually changed), and everybody's point was valid on the matter. I appreciate it.

But even after I stated my change, I keep stumbling upon posts that say I should simply drop out. Mostly before I stated my intention to change, but the opinion is still out there. I know it was not intended to be animosity but to be sincere opinion, and I also understand my baubling was not an acceptable type that deserves warm good-luck (another thousand thanks to those who nevertheless gave me courage to go on). But everytime I see them, the overwhelming feeling from them is one of discouragement... I believe everyone had newbie time :) and many would understand that uncertainty the newbies have.. And how one feels when one's fallen into a hole and people begin to throw stones into the hole in order to encourage one to move and get out of it... Like when I was sincerely trying to get the technique while pausing time to time to see how others do, and my sensei stopped me altogether and advised me to simply watch in seiza throughout the practice(it was not too long from when I started aikido)...

Sak

I believe all of those like me who suggested that you leave that dojo, had no wish to discourage you. We are simply aware that different people need different teachers and methodologies (see Don excelent post about this).

If your current Aikido teacher is not the right one for you, your staying with him might not be just a waste of time but even counter-productive.

Note, he could be a great teacher, and you might be extrmly talented student. It does not mean you must match.

I'm afraid to pull back the class schedule by asking same technique for weeks, for most people are sempai who are eager to learn something else
Do not be afraid to ask to relearn the same stuff. In our dojo, when Sensei asks if we would like to move on, it is us vetrans (Yundasha mostly) who ask to train the current exercise a little more, and the les experianced students who wish to move on, thinking they trained enough (while we, who were there, know otherwise).

And for ukemi, I don't know how to tell sempai "can you resist a little when receiving sensei's technique, not falling down before the technique actually went into effect?" without creating any hard feeling or finding myself in the lecture of "no resistance in aikido"...
Very simple - do not ask to resist. Ask Sensei to demonstrate again, much more slowly. In some dojos, you may also indicate your own misunderstanding of some part and asking an explenation about this. But this is a question of Dojo manners which differ from place to place.

But you see, I am a Doubting Thomas by nature, and I can't help but question what is given, instead of receiving it non-judgementally.
Doubting is also in my nature. And many of us Israelis around here must test the techiques against resistence long before they even finished doing them 100 times.
This requirses a suitable Sensei who is able to show he can pass through the resistence with ease, and has multiple solutions, then tell you that you should start the way he taught and maybe after the 1000th time, try against resistence once again, and then he will teach you a variation.
My Sensei also knows to explain the mechanics of the movement and the reasons it should work, as well as common errors and options\variations and why\when should one choose them (by now, over 15 yrs later, I know some of those answers too).

sensei's sensei indeed had shoulder injury that limited his range of movement. Since then, he taught extremely small movements as "better working and more efficient."

To my understanding small movement is better, at advanced level. It takes less time and still has the power. Further, if you can do small you can enlarge with ease when needed.
However, at beginner level, small movement might result in not using your body, only the hands, that is an error. Hence, a beginner learns large movements and reduces them with time (in Korindo, we have a specific way of teaching to move to assist in this process).

Good luck
Amir

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

I am skeptical of the Karate Kid attitude that "You do things that seem to have nothing to do with martial arts for years, and then one day you have superhuman powers!" It's a nice story about slapping water for months and then coming home and accidentally breaking the solid oak table with your newly-acquired strength, but it's just a story. (Don't get me wrong, Karate Kid is a fun movie!)

I think this highlights part of the problem with a total lack of sparring/free-form practice in most aikido: there is no feedback other than highly-subjective notions. I remember BJJ being very refreshing: I got pwned, they showed me a few techniques, and suddenly I was getting pwned to a noticeably lesser degree, and so on.

On a sidenote, I'm pretty sure you didn't actually overwhem a black belt in TKD on your second day. That was probably more the fact that people often aim to be juuuust a little bit above the newer students' level, because while it is sometimes interesting to try for comparison, you don't learn a whole lot by being instantly destroyed by an expert every time.

All that said, I also happen to agree that it is highly problematic to try to apply notions of what you think is best after just a couple months. You generally have to *do* before you can analyze.

[Ketsan]

It's a simplistic story but it's basically true in my experience. You don't know what you've learned until you try it out.

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

It's a simplistic story but it's basically true in my experience. You don't know what you've learned until you try it out.

You also don't know what you haven't learned until you try it out.

[mari]

Few years ago, I moved to a different country, and naturally to a different dojo. I came from a very dynamic, very physical way of practicing, to a mellow, slow-paced practice with lots of talking. I cannot say that I don’t get frustrated at times and wish I still practiced at my old dojo where my gi would get drenched with sweat after each practice… What I gained from practicing at my new dojo is a more refined movement with a better understanding of what am I doing and why.
So I guess what am I trying to say is, instead of doubting your teacher, open your mind and learn :) He obviously has been running a dojo for a while and you are a beginner – my bet is that you could learn a lot from him, if you give him a chance.

[Toby Bazarnick]

My ikkyo works.
Dagnabbit Don...I want to learn ikkyo and yet I swore I'd never move to Indiana!
It took me 3 or 4 years of trying it, but the last few weeks I've got a lot of guys in bjj class with it during sparing. My secret, I stop trying to do an ikkyo and I start trying to push their elbow though their face (ok, more to it then that, but that is how I stumbled on my solution). It's not pretty, but it gets the job done.
"Not doing" is great - makes sense to me. After 3-4 years, there definitely has to be more to your ikkyo than pushing their elbow through their face! ;)
If you genuinely try it their way and you can't get it to work, then you are justified in asking why.
I totally agree, and would add that talk is cheap - just honestly attack them and then sensitively feel the response.

Definitely be very careful/compassionate with whom you work in this way. Many people do not want to train with such intensity - also, many aikidoka may not be interested or able to physically, emotionally or psychologically handle this sort of challenge to their technique.

When you really push your (and your instructor's/partner's) limits, you can learn about aikido.

Do they get angry and shut down? Do they revert to over-controlling (laying out a crazy BJJ joint lock)? Can you keep doing aikido instead of dissolving into some MMA swordfight? Do they revert to muscle? If so, can you stay safe while thwarting their attempt to use muscle on you? Is it easy to do a simple tenkan and take center when they push you? Can you de-fuse the anger/fear, without placation, while still staying connected? That's the fun stuff.

Talented, personally-balanced, high-level partners will (hopefully) accurately guage your ability level and adjust their feedback to you. The best ones know how to turn off their egos and never pummel you, but perhaps let you walk into their fist. My sensei is a master of this now (I understand he was more traditionally unsympathetic of openings in the past).

The challenge you give is a gift to these people and the feedback they give you is your reward. After a while, you will learn how to be a challenging (more honest) uke while maintaining safety/connection. Your challenge will not be to interpret the technique, but to develop sensitivity through learning ukeme (I think this is the heart of the art of aikido).

Thankfully, it's soooo much easier to learn from the spontaneous movement related to someone's technique "working" (or not!) in response to your sincere, non-spastic attack. So learn through ukeme. Faith in aikido technique comes from honest, safe, and at times, tenacious ukeme. Never stop attacking.

Similarly, avoid doing fake ukeme (jumping, flipping, falling and rolling for no reason). That stuff is a total disservice to you and nage. Wait for a reason to move; feel the threat that provokes action. Don't accept a fake attacks (like attacking with their faces, grabbing your wrist and then just standing there, wide open, etc.). Without reality, we're forcing each other to dance; that aikido only works in the dojo.

Initially, this way to work can look and sound very brash. It's really not though... It becomes pretty obvious when someone is doing this to learn the technique versus trying to be more macho or "to win". Just be sincere in wanting to learn. You will encounter the macho nuts, egoists and sadists too - best to give them aloof ukeme and then avoid them forever. You can't learn much from someone who won't learn.

Again, definitely be very careful and compassionate with whom you work in this way - I can't stress that enough. People can easily misinterpret your intentions - many aikidoka are not be interested or able to physically, emotionally or psychologically handle this type of training.

[JRY]

wow, alot of good sound advice :)

Uke taking good ukemi and just going is important for the first few months. you learn where to put your hands and feet and get a feel of the technique. On a deeper level, while you're putting on the technique, have a constant awareness of where your hands are, your hips, the shape of your body and likewise your partner body.

taking ukemi is just as important, for now training is not to resist. just go and feel partner's technique and any stiffness in your body. learn to make your body light. Ultimately taking ukemi and doing technique is like the same.

well.... that's a small part of it anyway. also doing it is another matter :P

My first experience of Aikido was in a little club in Japan where the senior student normally takes the class and an instructor from Hombu would come over a few times a month. Likewise I was very skeptical about his teaching method and capability of the senior that was teaching. I felt that NOWAY could this really work or he could move me. But when someone gives a commited attack/ doesn't pull tanden back, there is a difference in the energy given.

I let my ego get in the way of my training and looking back, I COULD HAVE learnt alot from that senior.

re your question, Aikido teaches to move from the center. personally I believe big movement is important in the initial stages of training to emphasise this feeling of the center. Of course over the years this movement gets smaller and smaller but the center is still moving :)

my quick 2cents :P
all the best in your training

[DonMagee]

Dagnabbit Don...I want to learn ikkyo and yet I swore I'd never move to Indiana!

"Not doing" is great - makes sense to me. After 3-4 years, there definitely has to be more to your ikkyo than pushing their elbow through their face! ;)

I totally agree, and would add that talk is cheap - just honestly attack them and then sensitively feel the response.

Definitely be very careful/compassionate with whom you work in this way. Many people do not want to train with such intensity - also, many aikidoka may not be interested or able to physically, emotionally or psychologically handle this sort of challenge to their technique.

When you really push your (and your instructor's/partner's) limits, you can learn about aikido.

Do they get angry and shut down? Do they revert to over-controlling (laying out a crazy BJJ joint lock)? Can you keep doing aikido instead of dissolving into some MMA swordfight? Do they revert to muscle? If so, can you stay safe while thwarting their attempt to use muscle on you? Is it easy to do a simple tenkan and take center when they push you? Can you de-fuse the anger/fear, without placation, while still staying connected? That's the fun stuff.

Talented, personally-balanced, high-level partners will (hopefully) accurately guage your ability level and adjust their feedback to you. The best ones know how to turn off their egos and never pummel you, but perhaps let you walk into their fist. My sensei is a master of this now (I understand he was more traditionally unsympathetic of openings in the past).

The challenge you give is a gift to these people and the feedback they give you is your reward. After a while, you will learn how to be a challenging (more honest) uke while maintaining safety/connection. Your challenge will not be to interpret the technique, but to develop sensitivity through learning ukeme (I think this is the heart of the art of aikido).

Thankfully, it's soooo much easier to learn from the spontaneous movement related to someone's technique "working" (or not!) in response to your sincere, non-spastic attack. So learn through ukeme. Faith in aikido technique comes from honest, safe, and at times, tenacious ukeme. Never stop attacking.

Similarly, avoid doing fake ukeme (jumping, flipping, falling and rolling for no reason). That stuff is a total disservice to you and nage. Wait for a reason to move; feel the threat that provokes action. Don't accept a fake attacks (like attacking with their faces, grabbing your wrist and then just standing there, wide open, etc.). Without reality, we're forcing each other to dance; that aikido only works in the dojo.

Initially, this way to work can look and sound very brash. It's really not though... It becomes pretty obvious when someone is doing this to learn the technique versus trying to be more macho or "to win". Just be sincere in wanting to learn. You will encounter the macho nuts, egoists and sadists too - best to give them aloof ukeme and then avoid them forever. You can't learn much from someone who won't learn.

Again, definitely be very careful and compassionate with whom you work in this way - I can't stress that enough. People can easily misinterpret your intentions - many aikidoka are not be interested or able to physically, emotionally or psychologically handle this type of training.

Good advice here, but seriously, my ikkyo is probably the ugliest ikkyo you ever will see. But it does work in the context I need it to work in ( a grappling match).