Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

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[Shane Marcum]

As I'm sure most will agree, the "Twenty Year Technique" has numerous variations. Some dojos appear to teach it directly in line with Irimi Nage, while others may start students with it and Shihonage as their initial projections.

I have a very technical question relating to the technique. I have been more successful using this technique against shomenuchi by following irimi-tenkan-pivot. By this I mean entering off the line to the outside as the attack comes in; cutting down on Uke's attacking arm and securing the neck against my shoulder as I tenkan; and depending on the momentum, pivoting at the end as I bring my arm up, then down across the face, neck, and upper body.

Does anyone else perform this technique in this manner?

[mickeygelum]

Mr. Marcum,

I know it as Aiki-nage...as you said, it has numerous names and variations.

Train well,

Mickey

ps.....(whispers)...and it does not take twenty years...:D

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi,
I'm not shure about what technique you talk. And I have never heard of a "Twenty Year Technique".
Is there picture or movie clip on you tube?

Carsten

[sorokod]

Does anyone else perform this technique in this manner?

Probably. Check out YouTube.

[Ketsan]

Sounds like irimi nage ura to me.

[Carsten Möllering]

maybe

I thought of a form of sokumen irimi nage = naname kokyu nage?

Carsten

[C. David Henderson]

Sounds like irimi nage ura to me.
That's what I would say.

DH

[gdandscompserv]

Does it look anything like this?
http://www.aikibatto.com/aikido/video/stenudd_aikido_shomenuchi-iriminage.wmv

[ChrisHein]

We do that technique and simply call it: shomen uchi Irimi nage. We call a million different techniques kokyu nage though.

We translate it as breath throw, or spirit throw. Although I hear it called the "twenty year technique" often, because it's suppose to take 20 years to perfect. However that's true of all Aikido techniques. Some people have 50 years in, and will still tell you they don't like their kokyu nage.

I think it's one of the most commonly shared techniques among the Aikido systmes.

[Shane Marcum]

Does it look anything like this?
http://www.aikibatto.com/aikido/video/stenudd_aikido_shomenuchi-iriminage.wmv

Ricky,

Yes, it is the second on performed in this video by Stenudd Sensei. Although, his footwork in the video is different than what I describe. That's where my question lies. Is my way wrong, or just "another way" of doing it.

[Marc Abrams]

Shane:

It sounds like a good technical start. I frankly use to consider all techniques to be 20 year techniques. Now that I am finishing my 20th year, I now call then 30 year techniques! Shoshin- Beginner's Mind. Never stop learning a technique.

Marc Abrams

[Carsten Möllering]

Yes, it is the second on performed in this video by Stenudd Sensei. Although, his footwork in the video is different than what I describe. That's where my question lies. Is my way wrong, or just "another way" of doing it.
Ok, we call it irimi nage and our footwork is the same. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=rsMemmqLyqA)

I can not imagine how irimi nage can work if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning round?

Carsten

[phitruong]

19 years were trying to figure out what to call the technique, 364 days to debate whether we should or should not include internal training to do the technique, and 1 day to get it done. if you are lucky it happens on leap year, then you got 2 days. :D

kokyu = breath power => internal power with movement as an after thought. *put on asbestos underwear* picture anyone??? ;)

[Carsten Möllering]

19 years were trying to figure out what to call the technique, 364 days to debate whether we should or should not include internal training to do the technique, and 1 day to get it done. if you are lucky it happens on leap year, then you got 2 days. :D It's the other way round here: On the first day of training we get to know the name and we are said that working on technique by itself is internal training. Everything is said with that. The next twenty years we are only practicing.
On leap years we practice a little more.

Carsten

[NagaBaba]

I can not imagine how irimi nage can work if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning round?

Carsten

The irimi nage can efficienlty work ONLY if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning. Other wise you create an opening and uke will spin out while you are doing tenkan. :p

[Ron Tisdale]

Mr. S and I are like minded there...I might not say *only*, but I would say most often.

Hi Dave...I see you lurking... :D

Best,
Ron

[phitruong]

i am more of a mind doing atemi with the shoulder. but this being aikido where we suppose to be nice and all, I'll just cradle his head on my shoulder. i seemed to have more difficulty with the technique, because it against my nature, which is deep down, i am not a nice person. ;)

[Flintstone]

The irimi nage can efficienlty work ONLY if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning. Other wise you create an opening and uke will spin out while you are doing tenkan. :p
Amen to that!

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi,
I love it, to be here. really do.
The irimi nage can efficienlty work ONLY if you secure ukes neck against your shoulder while turning. Other wise you create an opening and uke will spin out while you are doing tenkan. :pAmen to that!
Did you see the video I posted yesterday? We cut uke down by and while doing tenkan and turning. There is no opening because we conduct his movement and lead him in a way so he can't spin out.
Whe he is lead his coming up again, we lead his head to our shoulder and throw.

So don't you cut uke down in irimi nage "ura"?

If ukes head happens to be directly secured at our shoulder we don't turn but throw directly irimi nage "omote".

Carsten

[phitruong]

Hi,
I love it, to be here. really do.

Did you see the video I posted yesterday? We cut uke down by and while doing tenkan and turning. There is no opening because we conduct his movement and lead him in a way so he can't spin out.
Whe he is lead his coming up again, we lead his head to our shoulder and throw.

So don't you cut uke down in irimi nage "ura"?

If ukes head happens to be directly secured at our shoulder we don't turn but throw directly irimi nage "omote".

Carsten

ask a BJJ or Judo person to be uke then do the cut down approach then ask him/her about what he/she thought of the opportunity for legs take down or scissor kick take down. just a random thought.

[Flintstone]

ask a BJJ or Judo person to be uke then do the cut down approach then ask him/her about what he/she thought of the opportunity for legs take down or scissor kick take down. just a random thought.
Or simply ask someone good at kaeshiwaza, or someone that just have trained on it. Or in sutemiwaza, that is.

Ey, Carsten, even read CT saying Aikido simply doesn't work, so...

[Ron Tisdale]

If ukes head happens to be directly secured at our shoulder we don't turn but throw directly irimi nage "omote"...

Well, both omote and ura is done in the Yoshinkan with the head not going beyond the shoulder. Omote the head stays pretty much centered in my chest, ura the head still shouldn't (technically, in the Yoshinkan) go any further than the back shoulder. We do have some versions where uke is bent over more like what you are thinking of, but then instead of a large pivot we tend to body change cut down, body change and hit uke in the snozz, then throw them.

Different strokes and all that. I have seen some people who are VERY good at the style you describe, but I would say for *most* people (including me), there is just way to wide an opening without a compliant uke.

Best,
Ron

[Carsten Möllering]

ask a BJJ or Judo person to be uke then do the cut down approach then ask him/her about what he/she thought of the opportunity for legs take down or scissor kick take down. just a random thought.
Ah, I see your point!

We have that in mind: We guide uke (or we try to ;) ) in a way that he can't get the legs or do kaeshi waza or apply sutemi. You can achieve that and control uke very good by leading his shoulder. So he shows me his back when going down. An he is off balance all the time.

We have always had judoka, jujutsuka and also karateka practicing with us in our dojo. That helped a lot.
And we have had over the years some seminars of jujtutsuka to explore things like this in Detail.

@ Ron: ukes head is never going beyond the shoulder in our practice. Like in all other techniques we try to have uke always before our center.

I have trained with aikidoka from Yoshinkan who did irimi nage in a very similar way, like we do?

Carsten

[NagaBaba]

Ah, I see your point!

We have that in mind: We guide uke (or we try to ;) ) in a way that he can't get the legs or do kaeshi waza or apply sutemi. You can achieve that and control uke very good by leading his shoulder. So he shows me his back when going down. An he is off balance all the time.

We have always had judoka, jujutsuka and also karateka practicing with us in our dojo. That helped a lot.
And we have had over the years some seminars of jujtutsuka to explore things like this in Detail.

@ Ron: ukes head is never going beyond the shoulder in our practice. Like in all other techniques we try to have uke always before our center.

I have trained with aikidoka from Yoshinkan who did irimi nage in a very similar way, like we do?

Carsten

Unfortunately the reality is not so nice. While you cutting down and ‘leading’ uke, there is (and it is clearly obvious from video) the space between nage and uke. This space it is an opening where uke can counter. The counter can be done in many ways:
1. as previously described by attacking the legs. There is nothing nage can do about it, because he is not locking uke by any physical leverage. Uke is so far from nage’s center that nage can control him efficiently with his weight.
2. other nice counter for uke is simply to continue the spiral that nage started, turning in nage direction and then go completely out far from nage. I did it many times when I practiced with folks from that style and every time it was very big surprise and they were not able to find a way to avoid this opening. You don’t need to be very advanced karateka, practice judo or jj to do so simple spin out. Everybody will do it very successfully. LOL

3. this cutting motion doesn’t work with tall and heavy uke – nage is using here only power from shoulders and not from center.

From what I understand , in this way of doing iriminage nage expect uke to simply get up once when he is on the tatami, so nage can quietly apply iriminage. Underlined concept here is that uke is harmonizing with nage, and not countering. Again - uke must be trained like Pavlov's dog :D otherwise nage is kaput!

[sorokod]

Shoulder control with Irimi nage (straight, not ura) as Saito Morihiro used to do: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7ouo6auP9Fc&feature=related from about 6:40

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi and thank you for givin g food for thougtht!

1. as previously described by attacking the legs. There is nothing nage can do about it, because he is not locking uke by any physical leverage.One hand on ukes neck, shoulder, head. Other arm on ukes shoulder, upper arm, elbow: You can uke manage the way you want.
Uke never is far from nages center.

2. other nice counter for uke is simply to continue the spiral that nage started, turning in nage direction and then go completely out far from nage.Hm, I think I know what you mean. But the move, nage starts ist not a spiral. It's an attempt to slam ukes face to the ground.

I did it many times when I practiced with folks from that style and every time it was very big surprise and they were not able to find a way to avoid this opening. You don't need to be very advanced karateka, practice judo or jj to do so simple spin out. Everybody will do it very successfully. LOLYes indeed! You are rigtht!
That's one thing to be learned! As I said: It's important to lead the shoulder or upper arm of uke so he can't spin out or do something like that. If you know how to do that it's easy.

More interesting to me: You think there is a sholarship of Tissier Shihan and Endo Shihan in the USA? (> "that stile")

3. this cutting motion doesn't work with tall and heavy uke -- nage is using here only power from shoulders and not from center.It's difficult with tall and heavy uke. But it works if you know how to do it. May I ask you: Where did nage touch you? Shoulder, neck, temple?

From what I understand , in this way of doing iriminage nage expect uke to simply get up once when he is on the tatami, No, it's an attempt t to slam ukes face to the ground. Irimi nage - out of this situation - happens, if that doesn't work and uke ist getting up again.

uke in our training tries to get nage's legs or tries to spin out of the motion or tries to counter nage. That ist normal in our training.

In our practice cooparation isn't considered to be good ukemi.

Carsten

[odudog]

It's not necessary for the head to go to the shoulder. If you do the tenkan really well, uke will be completely off balance. I should know, for that is what happened to me at the Aikikai Honbu dojo by the Sensei for that class. It was done so well on me that I didn't feel a thing yet I was flat on my back with the ceiling spinning in my head. The video recorder in my head has serious gaps in it about how the technique was done but I'm positive that my head never touched his shoulder.

[jennifer paige smith]

Thank you for that video. Saito Sensei is an amazing treasure
whom we could all stand to learn from; even after his passing. His basics are incredible and inspiring.

I would like to add this video of Ikeda Sensei as another consideration in the concept/application/practice of Irimi Nage.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=80vrifS9yiI

Both of these teachers approaches are certainly worthy of study.

Best,
Jen

[Joe McParland]

Shoulder control with Irimi nage (straight, not ura) as Saito Morihiro used to do: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7ouo6auP9Fc&feature=related from about 6:40

Actually, Video #5 in that same Saito series starts with a few minutes of the same iriminage, but with more detail, some history, and an amusing anecdote :)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fOdOU96YzaE&feature=related

Video 6 of 6 starts right in with irimi---pun semi-intentional ;)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yfkDpgwAIYg&feature=related

[sorokod]

You are right, video #5 is more relevant to the discussion.

"...so this 5th dan from hombu tries to do irimi nage on an Iwama shodan...":)

[Flintstone]

Jennifer, Carsten, if you don't lock my head into your shoulder for irimi nage, I will just spin out of it, or roll out of it. That is, if I don't want to counter. I've always had. And I'm not that good at Aikido.

[grondahl]

More interesting to me: You think there is a sholarship of Tissier Shihan and Endo Shihan in the USA? (> "that stile")

I´m not american but I do know that there are teachers influenced by Yamaguchi sensei in USA (Gleason, Yamaguchi etc).


In our practice cooparation isn't considered to be good ukemi.


Now I know that your kidding...

[grondahl]

As for teachers influenced by Yamaguchi sensei or his students.

That would be Gleason, Suzuki etc.

I´m not american but I do know that there are teachers influenced by Yamaguchi sensei in USA (Gleason, Yamaguchi etc).

[Carsten Möllering]

Jennifer, Carsten, if you don't lock my head into your shoulder for irimi nage, I will just spin out of it, or roll out of it. That is, if I don't want to counter. I've always had. And I'm not that good at Aikido.
Thank you for announcing! :)
That gives me the chance to do an exception if we meet you on the mat. ;)

Anyway: Spinning out of a technique, simply going away, not following if not necessary are simple but good methods to help nage to improve his technique.

Carsten

[Carsten Möllering]

In our practice cooparation isn't considered to be good ukemi.Now I know that your kidding...
Hm, is it in Iwama Ryu? Don't think so?

Sorry: I don't get the point.

Carsten

[grondahl]

Aikido ukemi is by definition cooperative.

[jennifer paige smith]

And I'm not that good at Aikido.

Hey, I don't care who you think you are. You can't talk about my friend Alejandro that way!

Best,
Jen

[Flintstone]

Anyway: Spinning out of a technique, simply going away, not following if not necessary are simple but good methods to help nage to improve his technique.

And with that very intention it is done. No other. No ego here; nothing to prove.

[Flintstone]

Hey, I don't care who you think you are. You can't talk about my friend Alejandro that way!
Ok, you earned some beers! Go get them, I'll top the bill ;) !!

[jennifer paige smith]

Ok, you earned some beers! Go get them, I'll top the bill ;) !!

You might be sorry;) .

[Lyle Bogin]

I'll escape it even if you drill my head into your shoulder and secure it with iron rivets. You can do kokyunage without turning it into "choke-you-nage"... too much of a grip will just piss uke off and make him escape anyway.

A firm but cautious handling is what I find to be most effective against the widest range of ukes.

Saying is a "20 year technique" is like when the buddhists say "the manifestation of 10,000 things". It is not so much the number, but the implication of a very (perhaps infinitely) long time, just as "10,000 things" means everything.

[dalen7]

This technique is one of the techniques that I think is, from one view point, utterly useless.

If you have a sword and the guy is holding on for dear life...yes it has its points. Other than that it has perplexed me as a waste of time. (Sounds harder than I mean it...I know it can be useful for other things such as harmony and philosophical purposes I suppose.)

Sorry, not much to add to the thread, but this is one move that sticks out, as it were, in all the moves that I do as being kind of pointless. (again, for the most part, as I know it is as you make it.) ;)

Peace

dAlen

[Joe McParland]

This technique is one of the techniques that I think is, from one view point, utterly useless.

That's interesting. This Iriminage---or, Kokyunage, depending on your lineage---is one of my most effective standbys outside the dojo (used against non-savvy rough-housing friends). Practicing disappearing into that safe position behind an adversary and having them in a position to choke, control, or throw is quite useful ;)

[raul rodrigo]

I'm with Joe on this, Dalen. Irimi nage is very practical. Its one of my favorites.

[dalen7]

That's interesting. This Iriminage---or, Kokyunage, depending on your lineage---is one of my most effective standbys outside the dojo (used against non-savvy rough-housing friends). Practicing disappearing into that safe position behind an adversary and having them in a position to choke, control, or throw is quite useful ;)

Must have a different technique the name is applied to - we do something totally different. Sorry for the confusion! :)
You definitely dont have opportunity to choke with this move...though maybe if I analyze it more there may be an opening - hmmms, something to think about.

Peace

dAlen

[dalen7]

I'm with Joe on this, Dalen. Irimi nage is very practical. Its one of my favorites.

But for us irminage and kokyunage are, I would say, like night and day. As I mentioned, my bad, so to speak, as it appears we are not talking about the same thing. Guess it happens sometimes. :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
If i ever get a video camera, Ill put the move on youtube.
Again, its more for someone with a sword in their hand and the attacker is trying to hold on for dear life in order not to be knifed...and how to 'shake' them off.

As I mentioned, I may not be seeing the other full potentials for this move yet...which may well be true. ;)

Peace

dAlen

[Ketsan]

Aikido ukemi is by definition cooperative.

I'd say ukemi by definition is non-resistive, but I wouldn't say it is co-opertative unless you're using it to teach, in which case you're not recieving technique anyway.

[Harm-ony]

I think...
don't forget to 'unbalance' the uke first, and good timing o apply the kokyu nage, so uke has no time to find his balance again... and always keep our shoulders to be ralxed and breath normally....

Peace and Love, :)

unisba aikido club dojo bandung indonesia (http://www.ragap-aikido.blogspot.com)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Twenty year techniques? hmmm
I wonder where this myth comes from??

Does it REALLY take 20 years!!?

Tony