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DH
10-03-2008, 10:20 AM
What is wrong with this picture?
Why and how would this never happen were both parties to have a connected body and ki?

[Editor: Link to image and attached image deleted]

Gernot Hassenpflug
10-03-2008, 10:49 AM
What is wrong with this picture?
Why and how would this never happen were both parties to have a connected body and ki?

[Editor: Link to image deleted]

Hmm, looks like tori is bracing on the back leg, locking his upper body tight, and probably using momentum. Uke... well, who cares, although if he had connection his structure wouldn't be broken by tori doing this type of thing.

If tori were applying internal strength (rather than simply training it, for example), he wouldn't have his feet flat on the ground.

Best regards, Gernot

David Humm
10-03-2008, 11:25 AM
What is wrong with this picture?
Why and how would this never happen were both parties to have a connected body and ki?

[Editor: Link to image deleted]Dear Dan,

Many thanks for (not) taking the time to ask if I had any objections in you using a picture of myself and one of my students in a post which poses a negative connotation on the quality of what was being done. Much appreciated.

Is common courtesy a virtue you value ? Obviously not.

Just for your information Dan, the uke, a good friend of mine, is an accomplished Kyokushinkai yudansha, and an ex Soviet soldier (para) I'd suggest if you'd like to know what "connected body and ki" actually feels like, I suggest you should likewise train with a middle senior full contact karateka as your uke; someone like the person in the picture, who understands how, when and where to routinely resist.

Feel free to post your own images of such training for us to critique.

--Dave

Upyu
10-03-2008, 11:40 AM
Dear Dan,

Many thanks for (not) taking the time to ask if I had any objections in you using a picture of myself and one of my students in a post which poses a negative connotation on the quality of what was being done. Much appreciated.

Is common courtesy a virtue you value ? Obviously not.

Just for your information Dan, the uke, a good friend of mine, is an accomplished Kyokushinkai yudansha, and an ex Soviet soldier (para) I'd suggest if you'd like to know what "connected body and ki" actually feels like, I suggest you should likewise train with a middle senior full contact karateka as your uke; someone like the person in the picture, who understands how, when and where to routinely resist.

Feel free to post your own images of such training for us to critique.

--Dave

Oh man...
Here we go again :D

Ad hominem? Check
References or appeal to "experience" and/or authority? Check

If you're going to defend yourself, why not start by explaining exactly why the pic shown could be correct? ;)

David Humm
10-03-2008, 11:43 AM
Shouldn't you be in the dojo or something rather than wasting valuable time on the internet ?

Gernot Hassenpflug
10-03-2008, 11:46 AM
Many thanks for (not) taking the time to ask if I had any objections in you using a picture of myself and one of my students in a post which poses a negative connotation on the quality of what was being done. Much appreciated.

... now I feel stupid :uch: So much for taking things in good faith!

David Humm
10-03-2008, 11:53 AM
Gernot, forget it mate..

My point has been expressed, there's nothing more to say on the issue.

Thanks for the PM.

DH
10-03-2008, 12:00 PM
Dave
Why did you post the picture? Were I or anyone to have commented favorably and patted you on the back would it have illicited a request for permission on a public board? I mean it sincerely when I say no insult was intended.
I think you missed the point, and got defensive. No where did I question cooperation, did that really need to be said? If I thought it needed I would have mentioned it. Do you think that anyone...anyone here thought this was a snapshot of a fully resistive engagement? Come on Dave give the readership some credit. We all know what we are looking at and have all been there. FWIW, there are many of us out here who have our own experiences with very capable fighters. Some of our experiences are more relevant than others. So let's not go there.

Kata
I agree that we can get snapshots of just about everyone in the Japanese arts-myself included were I to do a kata within the Tori/ ukemi model- and discuss them. But we are discussing them -as a model.
What are we discussing?
The model.
Were the person to be exhibiting ki or internal power his response after his strike and in his body, his weightedness would be different, and the result of being overcome would not result in that *type* of structural failure, even as an uke. This is not to damn him-you just made a point of his capabilities (I'll concede the point as I haven't felt him)-but to dissect the ukemi model and the need to collapse to make waza look like it typically does. He is clearly NOT connected here in any way. So I assume you are in fact conceding that point.
Or are you proposing that what you are attempting to do in the kata would look the same were he to be fully engaged?
Were he to have internal power before, during, and after? Would it look like this?

[Editor: Link to image and attached image deleted]

Lets assume he is awesome and exhibits internal skills. Then the series is still making my points-he gave it up, to do the kata. Hence;
What is wrong with the picture?
No Ki, not internal power exhibited in order to make a waza work.
Which means it can be discussed as the waza it is as a snapshot, and ask...what is wrong with this picture.

rob_liberti
10-03-2008, 12:20 PM
What is wrong in this picture is that the first character where I expected to see "ai ki do" does not look like "ai". I expected it to look more like they have it on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiki_(martial_arts_principle)

Yes, I'm being a stinker.

Rob

David Humm
10-03-2008, 02:24 PM
What is wrong in this picture is that the first character where I expected to see "ai ki do" does not look like "ai". I expected it to look more like they have it on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiki_(martial_arts_principle)

Yes, I'm being a stinker.

RobMy dojo was shared at the time with another art and they rightfully shared the shomen along with the walls, which are not clear in the picture, there rested naginata and yari.

Oh and to Dan. Thanks for your comments but let me say I don't expect adoration from anyone least of all from people I don't know.

Perhaps I posted my pictures to help promote my dojo at the time, perhaps I like looking at myself in a skirt - whatever the reason(s), and they are my reasons whatever they may be however; courtesy cost nothing. Something you seem to be left wanting a great deal of.

Dave

C. David Henderson
10-03-2008, 02:45 PM
"If you're going to DEFEND yourself, why not start by explaining exactly why the pic shown could be correct?"

Why should he be put in a position to have to defend himself gratuitously? Why should he and his students be grist for a discussion mill? Why wasn't he asked? That was his point.

Seems like a natural reaction to me. FWIW

DH

Haowen Chan
10-03-2008, 03:13 PM
What is wrong in this picture is that the first character where I expected to see "ai ki do" does not look like "ai". I expected it to look more like they have it on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiki_(martial_arts_principle)

Yes, I'm being a stinker.

Rob

...err, it doesn't say ai ki do. It's the name of the dojo.

Aikibu
10-03-2008, 03:46 PM
I can't wait to see a picture of Dan executing the correct form...:)

Now back to watching the grass grow!

William Hazen

rob_liberti
10-03-2008, 04:45 PM
I think most people's aikido will not be appreciated *here* in the non-aikido section. I think you can take just about every single one of the pictures from the random aikido shots and get the same reaction *here*. I can see why the guy is upset. But is there a rule about using them? Are they off limits unless we are writing glorious reviews?

Rob

Mike Sigman
10-03-2008, 05:06 PM
I can see why the guy is upset. But is there a rule about using them? Are they off limits unless we are writing glorious reviews? egads.... if ever I saw an opening for someone to use Rob's pictures and dissect them, that's it. ;) I.e., I think we should respect *everyone* and use discretion in dragging them into unsolicited analysis. What goes around often comes around, so let's be fair. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

David Humm
10-03-2008, 05:26 PM
... is there a rule about using them?None what so ever, unless of course you discount being courteous in taking the time to drop a quick PM or email.

rob_liberti
10-03-2008, 06:25 PM
I didn't say that I cannot see why the guy is upset.

If someone seriously posted a picture of me doing aikido in the non-aikido section and criticized it, I would probably join them. I might ask who is that handsome guy with the terrible structure? But that's me. And if it "comes around" I'm pretty sure I know how I'll handle it.

However, I will in the future try to hold myself up to the high standard set by Mike's infamous online courtesy.

Rob

Mike Sigman
10-03-2008, 06:33 PM
However, I will in the future try to hold myself up to the high standard set by Mike's infamous online courtesy.Another call for moderation. Pure ad hominem.

rob_liberti
10-03-2008, 06:55 PM
Why would you even suggest this wasn't sincere? Aren't you the model - the one who *never* goes to personality or politics - that we are all supposed to aspire too? Maybe I misunderstood how you see yourself. My humble apologies.

If it were me, I wouldn't mind my picture being dissected. I CAN see why someone else might mind. It's not a rule, to my knowledge. And a picture of someone else in general doing aikido would work just as well - I'm sure.

Can we all agree to replace the face of that picture with what you imagine my face looks like?

Rob

Aikibu
10-03-2008, 07:56 PM
Another call for moderation. Pure ad hominem.

I agree. It's hard to believe anyone could be so mean to you! :)

And thus... without much notice by the karma creating masses... A subtle shift takes place in the Universal Cosmic Consciousness of Love... Restoring Harmony once again...:)

Mastery Defined!

William Hazen

DH
10-03-2008, 10:13 PM
Hey, I'll be the first to apologize if using the pics was in poor test. I just didn't see it that way. As I said there was no ill intent, so an apology is easy, Sorry Dave.

Since the intent was to discuss body principles and not people-next time I'll photo shop the faces out, or use graphics. On the whole I can go through the pics here and use any 50 or 60, one after the other, to show the same points anyway. The argument being "volume makes the standard" in order to discuss bodies in motion, in budo movement. Oh well.

David Humm
10-04-2008, 04:24 AM
Dan, I still think you're missing the point I originally expressed.

I'm not looking for you to apologise, I wasn't originally asking for an apology, I was miffed because you saw fit to use an image of mine whilst asking other people to critique what you thought was wrong with the technical aspects of the waza.

Are you my teacher? Do you and I study the same method of aikido? So, what gives you or anyone the right to sit in judgement of what my students and I do when we train? The answer Dan is "none"

However; had you dropped me a short PM or email expressing your wish to include a picture of mine in this thread, you would have seen absolutely no objection, instead, I'm pointed to your post by a fellow aikidoka who likewise thought it was discourteous.

Now, my point about including the information about Konstantine (the uke) was to illustrate that working with students who actively resist in addition to having good quality atemi often results in techniques that don't fit the "text book" image.

I worked for seven years as a Prison Officer and during that time managed to restrain offenders with a number of aikido waza, non of which looked anything like what happens in the dojo - see my point ?

--Dave

DH
10-04-2008, 08:08 AM
Dan, I still think you're missing the point I originally expressed.

I'm not looking for you to apologise, I wasn't originally asking for an apology, I was miffed because you saw fit to use an image of mine whilst asking other people to critique what you thought was wrong with the technical aspects of the waza.

Are you my teacher? Do you and I study the same method of aikido? So, what gives you or anyone the right to sit in judgement of what my students and I do when we train? The answer Dan is "none"

However; had you dropped me a short PM or email expressing your wish to include a picture of mine in this thread, you would have seen absolutely no objection, instead, I'm pointed to your post by a fellow aikidoka who likewise thought it was discourteous.

Now, my point about including the information about Konstantine (the uke) was to illustrate that working with students who actively resist in addition to having good quality atemi often results in techniques that don't fit the "text book" image.

I worked for seven years as a Prison Officer and during that time managed to restrain offenders with a number of aikido waza, non of which looked anything like what happens in the dojo - see my point ?

--Dave
Dave
Fair enough, but in much of your reply you miss my point as well. Were I to use any fifty photos it would prove the same point. It's why the style or the people don't matter.
We alll move that way until we are trained not to. It doesn't have anything to do with what your teacher told you to do that is correct, or the waza. Your teacher more than likely does the same things. It is more along the lines of what typical movement in Japanese Budo involves ; where the weight is when attacking and when being thrown. In that light the photo becomes an example...of everyone. There is no critique of waza, or execution of waza. When I put photos with blacked out heads or a graphic (which I hesitated doing because people will debate the "realness") and people discuss
them who train this way, you will here agreement of how and why it is typical, and not what they strive to move like anymore. Further, what they are doing to prevent it from happening.
Here's another take on it. After a few years no one who trains this way will have a body that will look like that guy while attacking-even when they are fully cooperating, and no one will ever look like that, even when they were taking ukemi.

I am quite sure you can beat people up-many can. That's not the point either. So assuming your awesome, and assuming you are spot on in what your teacher taught you, maybe i am talking about something else, that is a critique of us all, in motion. and of a better way to move.
No style, no teacher, no arts waza, matter.

MM
10-04-2008, 08:21 AM
I dunno. If pics or vids are made available to the public, then they're public. The "public" is huge and encompasses the world. If you put them out there, they will be discussed in some aspect. For example, I put vids out there. People can link to them anywhere on the Internet and discuss them in various blogs or forums. Anyone can totally trash them or praise them.

But, to get upset that someone is talking about them? Like I said, I dunno. I made them available and should have the courage to accept the reactions, both good and bad. But, that's the way I look at it. YMMV, I guess.

Course, it could be that I still think my stuff is crap and I'm just a beginner. If I had 20-40 years invested, maybe I'd look at it a bit differently. Then again, we all talk about having the beginner mindset and supposedly being able to learn from white belts. So, maybe I still wouldn't get upset. Like I said, I dunno.

I didn't take the post negatively on any of the people pictured. I didn't even know it was you until you posted. And, for what it's worth, it looks like you were teaching. So, uke giving up his structure -- sure. Many is the time that has happened to illustrate a point. But, then the question is, just what parts of the structure were given up and what would it look like if uke had not done so.

As an example of mine, here's the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSKMkqJvWmY

Okay, so I've lost structure at 0:16-0:18 and also at 0:42-0:44. Well, to be fair, I don't have great structure to begin with, but I really, really lost it at those points.

Now, I regain structure at these points: 0:38-0:40 and 0:45-0:47. So, what changed? It's a look at anyone who loses structure and how they did so. And it's a look at what the interaction would look like if they kept structure.

You can replace me and my uke with anyone in the world and it isn't personal. It's a matter of looking at what constitutes structure, how it looks when it's there, and how it looks when it isn't.

There's also this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmiUhdoUHbI

My uke is trying to not use structure but yet give a good attack where he isn't over committing himself. So, pointing to me (tori), I can see a couple of places where my structure sucks. At one second (almost to two seconds), if you look closely, you can tell that my spine isn't centered correctly, I have a bit too much weight in one leg, and my left shoulder raises up way too much. But, you could replace my face for anyone and the fact remains that there are places where structure is held and it isn't. Doesn't matter why, just that it is.

David Humm
10-04-2008, 08:43 AM
Dave
Fair enough, but in much of your reply you miss my point as well. .Actually, with due respect to you, I didn't miss anything, I chose to respond reinforcing my perspective. I don't see the point in either agreeing or disagreeing with your particular point of view, you've already posted the picture (without the courtesy of asking). Its as simple as that.

Now I'm quite happy to move on, if you wish to keep rehashing the issue by trying to justify yourself then we go round in a further pointless exercise.

--Dave

rob_liberti
10-04-2008, 09:37 AM
I actually can no longer follow your point.

If the point was "ask first" - that makes sense, and you apparently got the last word which seems important to you.

If the point was that things in real life don't look like standard waza - which I thought you were trying to say in the previous post (right before you wrote "see my point") - then in THIS section of aikiweb, we actually discuss what the body looks like using aiki regardless of if you are doing waza or just plane old fighting. So I don't think there will be too much moving on from that particular point.

Maybe we can move on by asking:
1) so can we use the picture to talk about aiki now?
2) if not, any volunteers? I have no pictures of me doing aikido to upload. If someone has one, by all means, feel free. (try to airbrush me to looking more handsome if at all possible though!)

Rob

David Humm
10-04-2008, 10:01 AM
..//.. you apparently got the last word which seems important to you.

Sarcasm = Fail

You'll have to excuse me while I go do something more important like train for my next deployment to Iraq.

Mike Sigman
10-04-2008, 10:08 AM
Sometimes I feel like I'm caught in a Star Wars movie where I'm watching some of the characters turn evil as The Force they attempt to conquer becomes too powerful and it conquers them! Mwahahahahahahahahahaha! :hypno:

;)

Mike

rob_liberti
10-04-2008, 10:32 AM
Oh my gosh...

Okay, well my advice would be if someone shoots at you in friendly fire, shooting them back 4 or 5 times after they try to explain themselves will probably start drawing negative attention to you despite your having been shot first.

Mike, I guess I'm just confused. It seems like we have one of those situations where I think - we'll which one is it? Are you the pentagon of internet virtue where you can sit and judge others from on high or not? If I say I'm trying to live up to your standard then I see 2 choices for you. Choice 1, assume I am sincere and then your offense to what I wrote is misplaced. Choice 2, decide I am insincere then I assume that means that that is the way you see yourself and then your offense to many, MANY, MANY (did I say MANY?) others is misplaced. But I could be wrong. Is there a third option? You got my apology already. Do you also need the last word?

Maybe I am just struggling with new aiki power and it is clouding my analysis. Did that happen to you? Maybe you are still clouded. How would you know? This can be the reason why this kind of power is so hidden...

Rob

David Humm
10-04-2008, 11:08 AM
Okay, well my advice would be if someone shoots at you in friendly fire, There's no such thing as "friendly fire"

When were you last involved in a fire fight as a matter of interest?

MM
10-04-2008, 11:41 AM
There's no such thing as "friendly fire"

When were you last involved in a fire fight as a matter of interest?

Dave,
I think most took Rob's post as an analogy of sorts. And I think, Dan, Rob, and I have tried to be nice. Dan apologized. Yet, this last post of yours seems like you want to keep stirring up trouble. I hope that isn't the case. Because what does it matter when Rob was "last involved in a fire fight"? Does being involved in gun battles have something to do with discussing structure? Did I miss something here?

And according to U.S. military reports, major news agencies, and U.S. politics, there is such a thing as "friendly fire". Google shows 3.63 million hits for it. There's a wiki page for it. It's quoted quite often in discussing wars. Unless, you want to argue with all of that ... I don't see how your statement that there isn't any is valid.

David Humm
10-04-2008, 11:48 AM
Oh for pitties sake.

Are you for real, honestly?

Have someone you know shoot at you, see if it feels "freindly"

MM
10-04-2008, 12:34 PM
Oh for pitties sake.

Are you for real, honestly?

Have someone you know shoot at you, see if it feels "freindly"

Yep, for real. Rob took an analogy that most people understand and you tried to turn it into some sort of qualifications for Rob. When called on it, you now seem to want to downplay me with some "have someone you know shoot at you" response. The analogy stands, your dissection of it does not. But, I'll let you have the last word if you want and I'll stop being off topic.

Mark

akiy
10-04-2008, 10:49 PM
I have moved the above posts to this thread as well as removed the links to the image and the attached images themselves.

I have been out of town for eight days (with limited time for Internet access) and will not return until tomorrow night. I have not had nor will I have time to fully address what I see in this thread. Suffice it to say that the behavior exhibited by some in this thread sorely disappoints me and the behavior is not one that I wish to condone.

-- Jun

Wagnerphysed
10-05-2008, 10:09 AM
This is a website that provides accurate information on copyright.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

Here is what is wrong with using a picture that is posted to a website and express consent was not given, it is a violation of copyright law.

Beyond that, from a picture, criticism was doled out as to a teachers ability to perform his art, which further criticizes his ability to teach and may negatively impact his lively hood. This amounts to liable - Defamation of Character.

David, the elements that must be present for you take legal action in the US are:

1. Has to be a statement, in the case of liable it must be written, that is false
...in this case it is an attack on your ability to perform your art and therefore teach.
2.The written statement must be published to a third party.
...in this case the forum counts.
3. You must have suffered personal or professional damage.

Your ability to perform your art is what is in question here. You most certainly must have established that in order to teach. In a comment to others here on the forums, your credibility as a teacher has been brought into question. If you lose even one student as a result or fail to gain a student as a result, you may be able to prove #3.

Dan, check with a lawyer to see if if this is BS. I'm sure you must have a follower who has legal experience. In the meantime, I'd watch my 6, when it comes to what I post about others, if I were you.

Aikiweb, Jun, you moved this discussion to a completely new thread indicating you are not only aware of this indiscretion, but approve of it. IMHO, you should have done something to sanction the use of David's picture without his express consent. I believe the obligation is not a legal one, but an ethical one.
In addressing the ethical implications, there are the loyalty implications that go along with trust when someone posts a picture to your site. Do you tell them ahead of time that their picture may be used to discredit their abilities and that they post at their own risk? Why would anyone post a picture to Aikiweb when such a breach of trust and law is at the very least ignored and at the very worst encouraged?

DH
10-05-2008, 01:17 PM
Since I was the original poster I would like to see the thread closed after this post.
After much private discussion-I think it was a mistake in judgement for me to have used pictures that someone didn't intentionally put up for discussion. That's why I apologized to Dave. Dave said he didn't need an an apology he just wanted to point out that it was in bad taste. Done and agreed.
Think of it like this. People are putting up pictures to share their training and experiences. Not to have them critiqued.Since my *intentions* were never to single out people- I only wanted to discuss body movement- it makes my error in judgment-all the more obvious.

Body movement as a model
I would like to try it again, but this time using graphics. Why graphics instead of pictures? Even were I to block out faces it would still leave guessing, as to what dojo and what art. I am hoping to make the discussion art neutral and people neutral. So with graphics I can leave out all arts, all individuals and just talk about the human frame in movement and motion.
So once again, I'm sorry for even attempting to
use pictures as an approach.
I hope no one else feels the need to enter into the discussion. It really was between Dave and I to resolve. I hope this can be more of an amicable end to a bad idea.

DH
10-07-2008, 08:19 AM
Dear readers
The following is a Juns comments on Video in one of his sticky's
Hi everyone,
I've been noticing an increase in the number of posts consisting basically of links to videos (eg to YouTube). Although I can certainly understand the use of videos as a discussion point, I find videos in and of themselves more a supplement for discussions.

Therefore, I would like to ask of all of you: Rather than just posting links, please add your thoughts to the videos. For example, your thoughts could answer questions such as:
• What is your interpretation of the videos?
• Why are these videos important to you in the thread?
• How do these videos contribute to the discussion at hand?
• How do these videos reflect your own thoughts in the thread?
Please let's try to use links to videos to further discussion by using them as supplementary points to discussion rather than replacing discussion itself.

Thanks,
-- Jun
I've noticed this is a very common policy well in keeping with the standard set on most other forums and boards. Some of whom have whole sections devoted to posting and comments on video and pictures. It is worth noting that discussions of video and pictures has been going on for as long as the net has been in existence. Critiques of waza, and effectiveness and motion has been reviewed of all manner of arts, to include boxers and MMA.
After checking with an attorney it appears that it is perfectly fine to comment on materials submitted to a public site by one of the parties appearing, or even by any third party. The discussion of copyright has nothing to do with that. The infringement of a copyright has to first demonstrate a copyright existed, and further that financial damage was caused and people taking part in public exhibitions and having the material critiqued is perfectly fine. It greats more complicated with people having their images from a private venue without their knoweldge, but the activity being discussed being critiqued is still not the issue, its the person placing an image withoot authorization that is the issue. So the standard of what is to be acceptable is really set on any given board.

The fellow, who wrote in of potential legal issues and suggestions to sue, is himself a student of a well known teacher who is setting a new standard to control his arts teachings through legal means and has mentioned it in a series of interviews-his ideas of defemation of character in discussing pictures is highly unusual.

It seems Judo, MMA, BJJ, Boxing, CMA and many other arts openly and willingly discuss their abilities in public venue across all boards- third party being the typical means to do so. Thousands have been doing this on Aikiweb, Ebudo, Empty flower, Judo forum, for years. Could we get some feedback on what readers think about the use of public pictures, videos and commentary? I've already made a personal choice of what direction I am taking. Could we get a clear(er) idea of policy for the site?

Aikiweb has certainly been on the cutting edge of a lot of information these day. I noticed continual references back to this site from all manner of forums; Judo, ICMA, E-budo, MMA, Bullshido, etc. What sort of standards are we looking at regarding the discussion of ....well...everything?