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dps
10-02-2008, 10:30 AM
Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art before Aikido and before meeting with Takeda?

David

Stefan Stenudd
10-02-2008, 07:14 PM
Not to my knowledge - but there are many on this forum who know much more than I do.

aikidoc
10-02-2008, 08:11 PM
Unless you count Daito-ryu aikijutsu which he was licensed to do I believe. He held other licenses from what I have read but don't recall seeing anything stating he taught other arts.

jennifer paige smith
10-03-2008, 10:19 AM
I think one would need to decide for themselves the definition of martial art and then decide whether instructing in military service counted or whether one felt it is teaching Budo practice that is at the heart of the question.
Then the question could be answered in that particular context.

I might phrase my response this way: O-Sensei did teach warring arts in the military before he taught budo.

Chicko Xerri
10-03-2008, 10:34 PM
Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-03-2008, 11:19 PM
Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .

Never really thought of it that way but I believe (in a way) I share the same argument. Probably why we should never compare (nor contrast) Aikido with the other martial art forms.

aikidoc
10-04-2008, 12:32 AM
What are the references stating O'Sensei never considered aikido a martial art?

DH
10-04-2008, 12:44 AM
The Yagyu scroll he possessed was discredited by Yagyu sensei.
When he decided to become a teacher and hung a shingle Ueshiba's first and only art he taught was Daito ryu aikijujutsu. Which he handed out scrolls in until the late 30's he gradually changed the waza as he aged but never stopped doing Daito ryu aiki. Which is the power in aikido.
The name aikido was not invented by him. At a public exhibition of martial arts it was determined politely that Ueshiba;s stuff didn't fit, didn't look like Japanese Koryu jujutsu. So a committee created a category of arts called the way of aiki (aiki-do)
Since Ueshiba had already been hand copying the Daito ryu scrolls and changing the name of the art from Daito ryu Aiki jujutsu, to Aikibudo, to his family art names of Aoi ryu, he opted for this new category title as a name for the art.
1. It is widely recognized that Tohei and Kissomaru are credited for the syllabus now known as Aikido.
2. Ueshiba taught the military and assassins and there is ample evidence that he considered his art-martial. In every way.

Ellis Amdur
10-04-2008, 02:34 AM
Dan -
1. Incorrect. The Yagyu scroll was Yagyu Shingan-ryu. There was nothing for Yagyu to discredit. Different ryu. Also, I've never heard before that Yagyu sensei reviewed the certificate. Muto Masao, headmaster of YSR certified it as genuine Yagyu Shingan-ryu. Also, Ueshiba DID learn some Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and this was recognized by Otsubo shihan of Shinkage-ryu. See my (ahem) b o o k.

EA

DH
10-04-2008, 07:55 AM
Dan -
1. Incorrect. The Yagyu scroll was Yagyu Shingan-ryu. There was nothing for Yagyu to discredit. Different ryu. Also, I've never heard before that Yagyu sensei reviewed the certificate. Muto Masao, headmaster of YSR certified it as genuine Yagyu Shingan-ryu. Also, Ueshiba DID learn some Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and this was recognized by Otsubo shihan of Shinkage-ryu. See my (ahem) b o o k.

EA
Hi Ellis
I meant Yagyu Shingan when I wrote Yagyu-hey it was late here....
That said, I'll have to look it up but i am quite sure it was questioned. I think Yagyu Sensei said something like, it wasn't signed, or it looked fishy.

Regardless none of that was the point.The point was what he decided to do when he first taught.
Two things remain that were witnessed
When he met Takeda, he quite literally ended up crying in the corner.
Seven years later...when he decided to teach for the first time, he showed up in formal attire one morning at ayabe and announced to his nephew. "I am finally going to be a jujutsu teacher." From then on he taught Daito ryu.

Ellis Amdur
10-04-2008, 09:55 AM
Hi Dan - I think you need a macro of some kind, or better yet, one of those programs that the National Security Agency has. In their case, a button has already been pushed and when certain code words and phrases appear in an email or website anywhere in the world, the computers kick in and scoop up the email for examination. In your case, it would be simpler. Anytime anyone posts anything that asserts or questions that Ueshiba studed something else, or developed something else or that aikido was better than Daito-ryu, the program would kick in and would write, "No, no, no - crying in the corner - everything from DR - Shioda/Horikawa - real aiki - aikido projecting out." Heck, you could refer them to John Driscoll's essay which does a one-to-one correspondence with the various waza. 73% correlation post-war? Bing -one macro, link to John's essay, and we could go out drinking instead.

It's sort of like the judo forum where every time someone posts anything of BJJ, someone has to post that it came from judo - or more often, "all of it is judo newaza." Which isn't true. You change the rules, you change the sport, so why not change the name?
I'm not defending aikido, by the way. It's just that when I corrected the only factually incorrect thing in your post, you popped the macro at me, as if, in noting a factual mistake, I claimed that this meant that Ueshiba - aw heck - blah, blah, blah.

Oh, I'd talk more but I have to go. Every week I make the rounds of all the local churches to remind them that Christianity is just Judaism lite. They keep forgetting.
EA

rob_liberti
10-04-2008, 10:17 AM
Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?

Mark Uttech
10-04-2008, 10:31 AM
Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?

Onegaishimasu. Very funny Rob, before Jesus there was no Christianity. Before Christianity, there was no Jesus. On the other hand, before Aikido there was no 'O Sensei'. I've thought about it, and yes, this is the right answer.

In gassho,

Mark

Chris Li
10-04-2008, 11:31 AM
Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .

In "TakeMusu Aiki" (written well after the war), Ueshiba refers to Aikido as "budo" with great repetition.

Best,

Chris

sorokod
10-04-2008, 01:29 PM
Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?

Off-course, Jesus was a jew and practiced Judaism.

Ellis Amdur
10-04-2008, 01:50 PM
Sakyamuni practiced Hinduism. Is Buddhism Hinduism?
Abraham was a pagan. Is Judaism paganism?
Issac Newton practiced alchemy. Is Newtonian physics alchemy? Vasili Oshchepkov practiced judo. Is sambo judo?
Mestre Bimba practiced capoeira angola. Is capoeira regional capoeira angola?
Araki Mininsai learned Takenouchi-ryu. Is Araki-ryu Takenouchi-ryu?
Ono Tadaaki learned Itto-ryu. Is Ono-ha Itto-ryu . . . Itto-ryu?

rob_liberti
10-04-2008, 09:09 PM
Did these people all practice their early study, hang a single teaching their early study, and have someone else change the name of what they were teaching?

Rob

Rennis Buchner
10-04-2008, 10:06 PM
I meant Yagyu Shingan when I wrote Yagyu-hey it was late here....
That said, I'll have to look it up but i am quite sure it was questioned. I think Yagyu Sensei said something like, it wasn't signed, or it looked fishy.


It wasn't Yagyu sensei, but the "issue" you are bringing up is that supposedly the item in question was missing a stamp on it (if I recall correctly). There were any number of legitimate reasons that this could have happened and as Ellis said previously,Yagyu Shingan-ryu itself found nothing partciularly "fishy" about the document itself and found no real reason to question it. I think the tone of the comments on the "missing stamp issue" were originally in more of a "Yeah, this is the real deal. Hmm a stamp is missing, that's kind of odd, but yeah this seems real" nature rather than "Oh man, this stamp is missing. There is obviously something fishy going on here!". I believe Ellis and others have discussed the issue elsewhere in more detail and a bit of searching should pull up the info rather quickly.

Rennis Buchner

Ellis Amdur
10-05-2008, 01:09 AM
Rob - everyone of them was a profoundly ungrateful wretch, who, apart from their teacher and in the decades afterwards, never had an original thought, a creative impulse, or did anything different from their teacher whatsoever.They will all go down in history as mere copycats, inferior not only in technique, but also in moral stature. Their moral turpitude is so vast that it should, no it must be discussed ad nauseum, and and evidence to the contrary, must be expunged.
One of more ironic things is Tomiki Kenji. He learned judo, yes, but his Shodokan aikido came from - - - Ueshiba. But he changed it. Did competition. Still looks like Ueshiba's aikido. Kisshomaru was mad - why? Because he DIDN'T't change the name.
Well, he too is a being of vast and unimaginable moral depravity, for the opposite reasons, and we should devote endless hours of preoccupation talking about the same points here too.
Gosh, and let's get outraged about it too. Me, I'm mad on behalf of Lucy, the first human, who who never got full and proper credit - because everything we've done since is all based on her
DNA. Oh, and -
Yang learned Chen t'ai chi. Is Yang t'ai chi Chen t'ai chi?
Hao learned Chen t'ai chi. Is Hao t'ai chi Chen t'ai chi?
Wu learned Yang t'ai chi. Is Wu t'ai chi Yang t'ai chi is Chen t'ai chi?
Sheesh.

rob_liberti
10-05-2008, 07:21 AM
It just seems odd to suggest that every SINGLE example provided MUST be the same EXACT story and circumstances.

While the overall idea of 1 thing growing out of another is common, what I am reading here is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the situation where 1 thing simply got called something else without nearly as much "growing" as other *similar but but exactly the same* situations. That stands out in my mind as "questionable".

[rolling up my sleeves]
Did Quantum Computer Services become AOL?
Did BackRub become Google?
Did Jerry's Guide to the World Wide Web become Yahoo?
Did Computing Tabulating Recording Corporation become IBM?
Did Brad's Drink become Pepsi-Cola?
Did SBC become AT&T?

Were ALL of the name changes significantly more than just "rebranding" - every single one? No different circumstances in the bunch? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. I am fairly certain for instance that some of the things that say SBC had been doing right went very very wrong after they became AT&T and bought themselves that coveted stock ticker? Evolution doesn't have to be 100% for the better. Sometimes (many times) more popular does not result in better quality in some core beliefs.

Rob

C. David Henderson
10-05-2008, 09:18 AM
I think we are in danger of taking Ellis' examples out of the context of his original critique. I read it not as an assertion that O Sensei reached some threshold of "species differentiation" from Daito Ryu, which in the case of budo likely would be impossible for us to agree upon. I read it as a reaction to Dan's post, and perhaps as suggesting that it would be more useful for the historical details to speak for themselves with respect to the topic at hand. Am I confused? Wouldn't be the first time, nor the last.

DH

mickeygelum
10-05-2008, 01:51 PM
:hypno: ...:D ....:crazy:....:eek:

Joe McParland
10-06-2008, 01:10 AM
Onegaishimasu. Very funny Rob, before Jesus there was no Christianity. Before Christianity, there was no Jesus. On the other hand, before Aikido there was no 'O Sensei'. I've thought about it, and yes, this is the right answer.

Perhaps

Christianity is what one believes Jesus meant; and,
Aikido is what one believes O Sensei meant.

Andrew S
10-06-2008, 03:29 PM
I know this is post-Aikido, but I recall reading somewhere that O-Sensei awarded Hikitsuchi Sensei a certificate in a bo-based system that he had created. I'm curious as to the influences behind it - maybe it was not even Daito Ryu based?

jennifer paige smith
10-06-2008, 10:50 PM
Did Quantum Computer Services become AOL?
Did BackRub become Google?
Did Jerry's Guide to the World Wide Web become Yahoo?
Did Computing Tabulating Recording Corporation become IBM?
Did Brad's Drink become Pepsi-Cola?
Did SBC become AT&T?

Rob

:rolleyes: Do bee's be?
Do bears bear? :-)

Buck
10-06-2008, 10:57 PM
Ok, so did O'Sensei teach another budo "before Aikido and before meeting with Takeda [?]" I really don't care about the thing about the Christianity and Jesus and that whole chicken came before the egg laying thing and that snowball. Snowball? I care about kittens, and ya know what, that doesn't have anything to do with anything other then my little fluffy kitten Snowball who fell asleep on by lap and purring away peacefully. Yea, I know, I would never make it in the MMA. I am lover not a fight. That is a cat person who loves (like cares for) cats, but not their litterboxes.

So does anyone have an answer? Or does it show our obsession with lineage, and the need to know where things came from. Inquiring minds want to know, a hazzard of modern life. :)

jennifer paige smith
10-06-2008, 11:06 PM
I know this is post-Aikido, but I recall reading somewhere that O-Sensei awarded Hikitsuchi Sensei a certificate in a bo-based system that he had created. I'm curious as to the influences behind it - maybe it was not even Daito Ryu based?

Here is an excerpt of an article published by Aikido Journal in which Ellis Amdur describes the Bo practice done in Shingu by Hikitsuchi Sensei according to Clint George, who practiced extensively in Shingu.

I would like to add that this is also the understanding that I was given by Clint George when he first returned from Japan.

I would also like to comment that my teacher, Motomichi Anno Sensei, stresses the influence of Nature on the bo form that he transmits and that he also stresses this is what O-Sensei communicated to him as the 'Nature of Aikido'. Anno Sensei says it is 'based on Nature'.

From Aikido Journal-This scroll was entitled, “Bojutsu Masakatsu Agatsu” — True Victor is Self-Victory. Clint George, one of Hikitsuchi’s closest students, told me that the “Shingu bojutsu” had five levels:

Ikkyo — a fundamental solo form

Nikyo — a solo form that explored circular movement

Sankyo — a solo form that explored three dimensional, spherical movement

Yonkyo —Jiyuwaza — free, un-choreographed movement

Gokyo — Misogi no bo — a form that included techniques from the previous sets as well as those which had ritual, spiritual significance

According to Clint, Hikitsuchi disliked two person forms that were “long and dragged out.” Rather than kumibo kata, he would show waza applications derived from the forms. Hikitsuchi was much more concerned with what he called, kigata — “energy form” — the ability to spontaneously change as needed within one’s movements. Further, he emphasized inryoku — a “magnetic” power of attraction. This is a form of kiaijutsu, in which one sets up the opponent so that they conform to one’s will — the opponent is drawn into certain actions and positions that put him, inadvertently, at a disadvantage. Hikitsuchi’s bojutsu also focused on precision and clarity of technique, and he demanded an awareness of one’s openings, unified body movement and a feeling that one was in a real duel.

Hebrew Hammer
10-07-2008, 12:15 AM
Oh, I'd talk more but I have to go. Every week I make the rounds of all the local churches to remind them that Christianity is just Judaism lite. They keep forgetting.
EA

LOL...Nice quote during the High Holy Days Ellis...made me choke on my latte. :D I have a similar saying I use with my friends, "Inside every Christian is a Jew trying to get out!" one of my favorite quotes stolen from Full Metal Jacket and modified for my own diabolic means.

Flintstone
10-07-2008, 02:13 AM
According to Clint, Hikitsuchi disliked two person forms that were “long and dragged out.”
You surely don't mean Masakatsu Bojutsu was a creation of Hikitsuchi Sensei, do yu?

Mark Uttech
10-07-2008, 04:41 AM
:rolleyes: Do bee's be?
Do bears bear? :-)

Onegaishimasu. Yes! Not only do bees be, and bears bear, but bees also bear and bears also be!

In gassho,

Mark

rob_liberti
10-07-2008, 07:32 AM
I have a bit of trouble believing that Jesus would be all that thrilled with what has become of Christianity. I have pretty much the same trouble believing that O-sensei would be all that thrilled with what has become of aikido. I would further suppose that there are many scientists today and many famous scientists of the past who would not be all that thrilled with what has become of science today either.

But I do think the "followers" of the all of these have religious beliefs with an un-shakeable "faith" despite any and all evidence. There also seems to be a direct correlation with the amount of money some of the "questionable" yet "unquestionable" beliefs bring in with the amount of un-shakable-ness in those core beliefs.

Follow the Shoe! No follow the gourd!

Rob

Joe McParland
10-07-2008, 10:31 AM
I have a bit of trouble believing that Jesus would be all that thrilled with what has become of Christianity. I have pretty much the same trouble believing that O-sensei would be all that thrilled with what has become of aikido.

I don't presume to know any of the masters' minds, but I don't think it would be a big leap to imagine that Shioda, Tohei, Saito, his own son Kisshomaru, or any of the others, might have said the same thing (at least about aikido)---possibly even about each other. Wasn't there at least one occasion where O Sensei suggested that his own students didn't get what he was teaching?

I suspect people may be wondering if we've drifted off topic; I think we're still there for this reason: I'd ask if O Sensei was teaching a martial art at all, or if O Sensei was using martial arts---something in his own experience---to teach, to point to, or to express something else.

If it's true, then suspecting that O Sensei would not be happy with what has become of aikido gives life to the word "aikido" and puts our focus there instead. Perhaps O Sensei would not be happy with that.

Here's a question: If O Sensei found himself in your aikido school (for an arbitrary school, not specifically Rob's), do you think he would eventually rediscover / find his own aikido?

[Of course, as a proficient martial artist, O Sensei might have been irked if you didn't develop some martial technique along the way, just as a chaddo master might be irked if your tea tasted terrible, or just as a kyudo master might be irked if your arrows never found the target ;) ]

gdandscompserv
10-07-2008, 11:15 AM
Last week I went into the gymnasium to start setting up the mats for class. It was a bit stuffy so I opened the side doors to enhance airflow. Upon opening the door that opens to a small park I was greeted by six or seven children playing in the park. Oh, they said, do you teach karate? I smiled and said, "something like that, would you like to join?" Most of them were already barefoot so there was no need for them to remove their shoes. That night, there were eight children and a dog on the mat. I think Osensei would be pleased, and I'm pretty sure Jesus was pleased as well.:)

Joe McParland
10-07-2008, 11:24 AM
That night, there were eight children and a dog on the mat. I think Osensei would be pleased, and I'm pretty sure Jesus was pleased as well.:)

Hallelujah! - spoken in Japanese, of course :)

Andrew S
10-07-2008, 03:18 PM
From Aikido Journal-This scroll was entitled, “Bojutsu Masakatsu Agatsu” — True Victor is Self-Victory. Clint George, one of Hikitsuchi’s closest students, told me that the “Shingu bojutsu” had five levels:

Ikkyo — a fundamental solo form

Nikyo — a solo form that explored circular movement

Sankyo — a solo form that explored three dimensional, spherical movement

Yonkyo —Jiyuwaza — free, un-choreographed movement

Gokyo — Misogi no bo — a form that included techniques from the previous sets as well as those which had ritual, spiritual significance


Thanks, Jennifer.

So, if I understand this correctly, O-Sensei taught jo to simulate spear and bayonet techniques, and then awarded a bo system to a single student. Where did this system come from?

Flintstone
10-07-2008, 03:45 PM
Hallelujah! - spoken in Japanese, of course :)
Areruyaa! ? ;)

Flintstone
10-07-2008, 03:47 PM
So, if I understand this correctly, O-Sensei taught jo to simulate spear and bayonet techniques, and then awarded a bo system to a single student. Where did this system come from?
Take care, questions like this would (re)start a (not so) new Holly War in Spanish forums...:)

jennifer paige smith
10-07-2008, 05:44 PM
You surely don't mean Masakatsu Bojutsu was a creation of Hikitsuchi Sensei, do yu?

I surely mean that you are referencing a quote from Ellis Amdur's article in Aikido Journal (sorry if that fact wasn't obvious in the way the post was structured), in which he is discussing the Bojutsu form introduced to Hikitsuchi Sensei by O-Sensei as practiced in Shingu by my teachers and then myself and hopefully by my students if I'm doing my job well.

Hope that clear things up for you.

jennifer paige smith
10-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Thanks, Jennifer.

So, if I understand this correctly, O-Sensei taught jo to simulate spear and bayonet techniques, and then awarded a bo system to a single student. Where did this system come from?

Well, I would only say what my teachers have said and what I have personally experienced, which is that O-Sensei taught the Bo form and the Jo form ( again, I am referencing the Shingu lineage) as very flexible methods of weapons training which allowed the practitioner the most multi-dimensional weapons corollary to technique.

My teachers and I also express what we were left with through O-Sensei's Bo, calligraphy, and verbal teachings, which is this: it was inspired of Nature. Literally, I have been taught, the system O-Sensei transmitted at the time came from Nature. Our job as deshi has been to open our minds and to learn what this means.

If the question you are asking is 'what was the weapons lineage?', I will again quote Aikido Journal: " Hikitsuchi engaged in intensive training with Ueshiba, centered on the sword. As I described elsewhere, Ueshiba’s aiki principles are contained in three forms he adapted from Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. Hikitsuchi trained extensively in jukenjutsu as a young man, and was very skilled in both iaido and kendo. "

These are the teachings I have received. I sincerely hope they can be of some help in your understanding and practice.

Best,
Jen

jennifer paige smith
10-07-2008, 06:38 PM
I apologize for the multi-posting......here is a link to the Aikido Journal article I have been referencing. It is wonderful and informative. I hope you all enjoy it, too.

https://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1996

jen

Andrew S
10-08-2008, 03:07 PM
Take care, questions like this would (re)start a (not so) new Holy War in Spanish forums...:)
I wasn't expecting some kind of Spanish Inquisition...:D
If the question you are asking is 'what was the weapons lineage?', I will again quote Aikido Journal: " Hikitsuchi engaged in intensive training with Ueshiba, centered on the sword. As I described elsewhere, Ueshiba’s aiki principles are contained in three forms he adapted from Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. Hikitsuchi trained extensively in jukenjutsu as a young man, and was very skilled in both iaido and kendo. "


Thanks again, Jen.

jennifer paige smith
10-08-2008, 03:41 PM
Andrew,
My pleasure.
Jen