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salim
09-29-2008, 10:59 AM
I came across an old video from the 1930's of two supposedly marital artists (it's a demonstration only). One is a wrestler and the other is a boxer (the boxing is awful). The ironic thing is that the wrestler utilizes what appears to be almost, Aiki like techniques, more like BJJ techniques combined. I wasn't sure what to make of this. Very strange combination on really old footage. I know some techniques from the old Kosen Judo schools, resemble BJJ of today. But maybe it appears to be almost Aiki a little, with at least one of the techniques. I was really surprised to see this. Maybe it's just me. I would like to hear what others think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI5HJVFt-Ys&feature=related

ChrisHein
09-29-2008, 11:07 AM
I think you should look into "catch wrestling".

Here's something to get you started.

http://scientificwrestling.com/

MM
09-29-2008, 11:24 AM
It is not aiki. It isn't even close to aiki.

DH
09-29-2008, 11:40 AM
Putting two wrestlers up on stage with one wearing gloves does as much good to forward your case of wrestling's superiority over boxing as does putting up two aikido guys in hakama with one of them holding a knife and calling it knife defense.

Now, I happen to believe that all things being equal- grapplers are the best fighters in the world, but I would NEVER substantiate that view by this stuff.

ChrisHein
09-29-2008, 06:40 PM
Now, I happen to believe that all things being equal- grapplers are the best fighters in the world, but I would NEVER substantiate that view by this stuff.

An armed man is a far superior fighter to a grappler.

Josh Reyer
09-29-2008, 08:20 PM
An armed man is a far superior fighter to a grappler.

Probably why Dan said "all things being equal", i.e., either neither men are armed or both men are armed. In either case, the grappler probably has the advantage.

Kevin Leavitt
09-29-2008, 09:55 PM
Which is why the US Army returned to a grappling based form of jiujitsu to base our program on. that and it allows for a competitive model which means guys like to do it and can measure skill and success somewhat.

DH
09-29-2008, 10:10 PM
Correct Josh.But to further the point I was making,

An armed man is a far superior fighter to a grappler.
This expresses as much presumption as putting gloves on a wrestler and then telling someone you defeated "a boxer."

An armed man is NOT a better fighter than a grappler. It all depends on the guy wielding the knife!

This is something that is apparently not understood by many supposed martial artists. It's why you see video's of dojo footage with giving a knife an aikido fellow in a hakama, and telling him to play the uke role of the "knife wielder" while you do your waza. Then having the participants come back and talk about how super-neato it was doing aikido on a challenger with a knife.
As an experiment in reality-you would be better off giving the knife to some young tough you can find on the bad side of town and tell him to go all out on you...than to putting a knife it into the hands of most MAers
You're not ever going to successfully handle a good man with a knife, you would end up dead. So you would never go on a public board and say look what I can do with a "knife wielder" with any more validity than those young men saying "Look at this here rastler and what he can do.....to a boxer."

DH
09-29-2008, 10:14 PM
Which is why the US Army returned to a grappling based form of jiujitsu to base our program on. that and it allows for a competitive model which means guys like to do it and can measure skill and success somewhat.
And manage fear
and learn to think while under stress
and learn confidence and freedom of movement under stress
To learn to relax and transition, feint, set-up- flow, and change without attachment as the conditions change.

Good grapplers, particularly those with experience with sticks and knives...are Shihan.
Martial artists just don't think of them in that way. Until they are taken apart by one.

Kevin Leavitt
09-29-2008, 10:17 PM
Yup, agree Dan. Actually the whole managing fear and stress/confidence thing...you know...budo thing...is actually the biggest reason we do this, but that fact is lost on the masses.

Ironically the Combatives Manual that my friend Matt Larsen wrote states this up front.

Stephen Kotev
09-30-2008, 08:19 AM
Yup, agree Dan. Actually the whole managing fear and stress/confidence thing...you know...budo thing...is actually the biggest reason we do this, but that fact is lost on the masses.

Ironically the Combatives Manual that my friend Matt Larsen wrote states this up front.

Kevin,

Any chance we can get our hands on that manual?

Cheers,
Stephen Kotev

Demetrio Cereijo
09-30-2008, 09:08 AM
U.S. Army Field Manual for Combatives (FM 3-25.150) (http://www.selfdefenseresource.com/combatives/articles/Combatives%20FM%203-25.150.pdf)
Chapter 1

gdandscompserv
09-30-2008, 09:34 AM
Martial artists just don't think of them in that way. Until they are taken apart by one.
I was 'taken apart' by one at a young age. I have never forgotten it.:D