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bajanaikikai
09-24-2008, 05:18 AM
Hi fellow aikikai, greetings from Barbados. i was wondering if anyone has any input they can share on henka-waza and keishi-waza techniques or where i can find any information on them.

grondahl
09-24-2008, 05:38 AM
What kind of Aikikai? Your henka may be my kihon or vice versa..

Stefan Stenudd
09-24-2008, 07:21 AM
I posted some henkawaza and kaeshiwaza basics here:

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikidobasics-henkawaza.htm

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikidobasics-kaeshiwaza.htm

sorokod
09-24-2008, 07:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_SB0TqvUb8

bajanaikikai
09-24-2008, 10:48 AM
hi stefan,
thank you for those links on henka waza and keishi waza. they give very good information on which techniques can be applied in various cases. I also had a look at the link with your book but i realised that you only have a few pages in it covering the same two topics. Are there any books you would recommend that has detailed information on those same topics which explains how to perform the various techniques?

Janet Rosen
09-24-2008, 02:02 PM
I think the problem is, there is no hard and fast rule; the idea in a counter or change is that one thing does not work/you meet resistance, and you flow until another technique literally presents itself.

sorokod
09-24-2008, 05:31 PM
you flow until another technique literally presents itself.

Are you saying that kaeshi-waza presents itself to you without any training?

Janet Rosen
09-24-2008, 09:44 PM
Are you saying that kaeshi-waza presents itself to you without any training?

It depends on what you mean by "any training."
Without any training in the sense of training that says "a botched this leads to that"? Yep.
All training should be about finding openings. You may not act on them, but you should be noting them and seeing where the opportunity arises for another technique, regardless of whether you are being nage or uke at the moment.
And I do think there is a lot of value in slow freeform practice with a partner that allows these things to develop.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-24-2008, 10:49 PM
and you flow until another technique literally presents itself.
... or you make it appear.

Another clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFgx5cr6lDI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFgx5cr6lDI)

sorokod
09-25-2008, 04:54 AM
All training should be about finding openings. You may not act on them, but you should be noting them and seeing where the opportunity arises for another technique, regardless of whether you are being nage or uke at the moment.


How did you learn techniques (waza, kaeshi-waza, whatever) in the first place? According to the posts all training is just about finding openings on which you often will not act.

Stefan Stenudd
09-25-2008, 10:14 AM
Are there any books you would recommend that has detailed information on those same topics which explains how to perform the various techniques?
Sorry, I don't know of any such books. Maybe somebody else on this forum has come across one?
In my Attacks in Aikido, there's really no more about kaeshiwaza and henkawaza than you find on my website.
I might get around to making a few videos...

Well, I show some simple henkawaza in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIvsCZE7xAw

I regard kaeshiwaza as a way to refine the aikido techniques, so that they become less and less possible to counter. That means kaeshiwaza should by time be impossible to do - but that takes a lot of time.

And henkawaza is almost the same: shifting from one technique to another is a way to solve hard resistance against the initial technique.

Janet Rosen
09-25-2008, 12:14 PM
How did you learn techniques (waza, kaeshi-waza, whatever) in the first place? According to the posts all training is just about finding openings on which you often will not act.
No, I was specifically answering a specific question. Please try not to read more into my words than I've written.
Of course I learn in class, working with a partner, like everybody else.
The question had to do with changes/reversals.
My answer was intended to say that I do not believe that one has to learn how to do them via rote practice of "this fails so look FOR THAT".
In my experience, if you have your basics down to some degree, that when it comes to changes from one to another or to reversals, it should be possible to find what is there via slow partner practice rather than rely on learning a rote sequence, which to me is the antithesis of aikido.
My two cents.

sorokod
09-25-2008, 03:28 PM
As some of the linked videos indicate there is certain technical depth and richness to kaeshiwaza which goes beyond recognizing an opening.
If you believe that this stuff "is there" for you to find, then good for you.

CitoMaramba
09-25-2008, 06:44 PM
hi stefan,
Are there any books you would recommend that has detailed information on those same topics which explains how to perform the various techniques?

Kaeshi Waza are presented in Morihiro Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido, Volume 4.

Henka Waza are presented in Morihiro Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido Volume 5.

eyrie
09-25-2008, 06:48 PM
David, I think both approaches are equally valid. One as a training tool to inspire creativity, and the other an application of creativity backed by martial skill.

Joe McParland
09-25-2008, 11:39 PM
I regard kaeshiwaza as a way to refine the aikido techniques, so that they become less and less possible to counter. That means kaeshiwaza should by time be impossible to do - but that takes a lot of time.

You see your two hands holding my wrist mid-shihonage; I see you attacking me with morotedori. If your shihonage is impossible to counter, then there is a morotedori attack for which Aikido does not work.

That would be unfortunate for Aikido, no? ;)

sorokod
09-26-2008, 02:57 AM
then there is a morotedori attack for which Aikido does not work.

That would be unfortunate for Aikido, no?

Aikido is a martial discipline, it does not eat, drink, go on holidays or "work". It is not fortunate or "unfortunate".
It is you who do all the working with fortunate or unfortunate results to you.

MarkDole
09-26-2008, 03:24 AM
We regularly (but not too often) practise kaeshi waza and renzoku waza. It is normal in all Kobayashi Dojo and we have them in our examimation system (from 2nd dan).

sorokod
09-26-2008, 04:01 AM
Ignatius, I agree that the two approaches are valid, I also think that they are pretty much unrelated and complement each other into a whole thing.

Flintstone
09-26-2008, 07:03 AM
You see your two hands holding my wrist mid-shihonage; I see you attacking me with morotedori.
I think this is the point. Or one of them anyway...

Joe McParland
09-26-2008, 09:34 AM
Aikido is a martial discipline, it does not eat, drink, go on holidays or "work". It is not fortunate or "unfortunate".
It is you who do all the working with fortunate or unfortunate results to you.

Ummm, that was a bit literal and misinterpreted---but still amusing ;)

I'm hoping you do understand the point of the post though: A technique is an attack.

[Hope that doesn't bother the "There is no attack in Aikido" folks ;) ]

If there is a technique that cannot be reversed using Aikido technique (or principles), then there is an attack for which there is no Aikido-based defense.

If Stefan perfects a technique so that it cannot be reversed, we have to go back to the drawing board :)

sorokod
09-26-2008, 10:15 AM
Sorry for being pedantic but shiho-nage is not an attack and morotedori is not a technique

I understand, the uke/nage roles are artificial training aides and all that. All participants can choose to be nage but symmetry has to break when someone has to commit to an attack.

Flintstone
09-26-2008, 10:50 AM
Sorry for being pedantic but shiho-nage is not an attack and morotedori is not a technique
Not quite sure about that...

Janet Rosen
09-26-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm hoping you do understand the point of the post though: A technique is an attack.

Interesting point, Joe, and one on which I *mostly* agree.

The minute nage gives uke anything uke can resist, the technique has in essence become an attack which uke can apply a technique to.

Ideally in practice nage can do a technique giving nothing that can be resisted. I suppose if I had to specify having a long term goal in my own training, that would be it.

A lot of folks, myself included, work on body positioning, speed, angle, weighting, a whole lot of things to try to minimize openings, but because of using excess muscle tension in our bodies we still transmit somatic information to uke that she can feel it as an attack and use that energy to counter it. I'm *not* talking about resistance and battles of wills that deteriorate into grappling, but about softly feeling the other's energy and intent and making use of it.

My opinion, and YMMV, is that the only reason this does *not* happen in most dojos in most situations is a polite convention to make the training in the demonstrated technique go more smoothly. Which also has value; its how we get the "muscle memory" to integrate the movements of the techniques.

But we shouldn't let that lull us into thinking that our techniques aren't full of openings, and that a technique that is imposed isn't itself an attack.

Joe McParland
09-26-2008, 11:48 AM
The minute nage gives uke anything uke can resist, the technique has in essence become an attack which uke can apply a technique to.

Ideally in practice nage can do a technique giving nothing that can be resisted. I suppose if I had to specify having a long term goal in my own training, that would be it.

I thought about this a lot while and then after posting, Janet. There once was a thread wherein someone asked if nage could perform a technique without "adding" anything to what uke had offered. That really intrigued me. On self-examination, I saw that I'm still fairly primitive: I tug here, push there, or whatever is necessary to create that off-balancing, etc. But was it really necessary? How wonderful to minimize that with better leading and such.

In retrospect, though, that leading---or transmission of somatic information---is something that nage is adding / contributing to the equation. I suspect that a sufficiently sensitive uke can work with that as well.

In the end, how can Aikido be a balance restoring art if it itself is not balanced? ;)

Stefan Stenudd
09-26-2008, 02:33 PM
If Stefan perfects a technique so that it cannot be reversed, we have to go back to the drawing board :)
Don't hold your breath :)

About the timing, I teach my students that kaeshiwaza should be applied at the very moment when tori's movement turns from avoiding the attack into applying the technique - which is the moment when tori can be said to change from defender to attacker. The aikido technique can be described as kind of an attack, so that's the moment it is vulnerable to aikido strategy, i.e. the kaeshiwaza counter technique.
So, when doing kaeshiwaza, one should pretend to be the one attacked.

Maybe that's what you mean, Joe?

When I suggest that there is some way of developing one's aikido technique so that it can't be countered, I mean that it has to be done in a way that makes it impossible for the attacker to pretend to be attacked at some point in it.
Or one has to do the technique very forcefully.... ;)

Janet Rosen
09-26-2008, 05:58 PM
When I suggest that there is some way of developing one's aikido technique so that it can't be countered, I mean that it has to be done in a way that makes it impossible for the attacker to pretend to be attacked at some point in it.
Thanks for saying it better than I could!

Joe McParland
09-26-2008, 06:56 PM
When I suggest that there is some way of developing one's aikido technique so that it can't be countered, I mean that it has to be done in a way that makes it impossible for the attacker to pretend to be attacked at some point in it.

Well, my initial thought is this: If you don't want the attacker to pretend to be attacked, then either actually attack or actually don't attack---then there is no reason to pretend ;)

Otherwise, it's waza and we do what we have to do, no?

But still, if your adversary in this exercise is as skilled as an uke as he is as a nage---and his skills are integrated, meaning he can move freely between these roles instantaneously and without thought, which is presumably part of kaeshiwaza training---then his response to an atemi (whether real or a feint) need not ever be what you expect. ;)

We train to reach takemusu as nages; should we not do the same as uke?

Stefan Stenudd
09-28-2008, 06:31 AM
But still, if your adversary in this exercise is as skilled as an uke as he is as a nage---and his skills are integrated, meaning he can move freely between these roles instantaneously and without thought, which is presumably part of kaeshiwaza training---then his response to an atemi (whether real or a feint) need not ever be what you expect. ;)
Well, atemi - that's another thing...
A skilled uke would quickly respond to atemi as if it is an attack, simply because it actually is.
What I mean with an aikido technique that does not make uke shift to tori is one so smooth and aiki that uke doesn't even feel threatened by it. An extension of uke's attack energy, not triggering uke to react.