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salim
09-23-2008, 01:22 PM
Judo, Aikido, BJJ, are all basically the same thing with emphasis on different aspects (e.g. ground fighting for BJJ, standing throws for Judo, wristlocks for Aikido). The main difference is the degree of aliveness or focus on live sparring.
I guess what I am getting at is whether we will ever see Aikido (or other Japanese jujutsu) movement where live sparring begins to be incorporated. The problem (from a functional standpoint) in Aikido is that even at its most free form, there is always an Uke and a Nage; one person always knows that they are the one applying the technique and the other is getting thrown or pinned. At some point (probably because of O-Senseis focus on spirituality later in life) the idea of purposely engaging in a competition or conflict was jugded as non-conducive in Aikido. This is especially interesting because many of O-Sensei’s early students were practitioners of other martial arts who lost challenge matches to O-Sensei. Additionally, there are stories of O-Sensei’s uchideshi fighting or taking challenge matches. As a matter of fact, it was generally suspected that Chiba Sensei in the early 90s would routinely engage in challenge matches with other martial artist; he often showed up to classes with cuts or in a brace and he is widely regarded as having a very “rough” style of Aikido (in fact some say they saw him choke one of his uchideshi out for not doing a technique correctly).
Anyway, I would like to hear if anyone has any opinions or thoughts on the possiblity of a more functional-based practice of Aikido or whether such a movement would simply lead, as some have suggested, to an Aikido that looked a lot more like BJJ.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-23-2008, 01:33 PM
Anyway, I would like to hear if anyone has any opinions or thoughts on the possiblity of a more functional-based practice of Aikido or whether such a movement would simply lead, as some have suggested, to an Aikido that looked a lot more like BJJ.

It will look like MMA if weapons (or weapon awareness) are not included and it will look like Dog Brothers gatherings if weapons or its possibility are present.

Ketsan
09-23-2008, 05:08 PM
Judo, Aikido, BJJ, are all basically the same thing with emphasis on different aspects (e.g. ground fighting for BJJ, standing throws for Judo, wristlocks for Aikido). The main difference is the degree of aliveness or focus on live sparring.


Apart from sparring I'd disagree with that statement. Superficially they're all basically the same thing, in actuality they're vastly different from each other, IMO.

Their goals and spirit/psychology they impart are all different and the way they work is also different.

salim
09-23-2008, 05:52 PM
Apart from sparring I'd disagree with that statement. Superficially they're all basically the same thing, in actuality they're vastly different from each other, IMO.

Their goals and spirit/psychology they impart are all different and the way they work is also different.

Really it depends on what your Aikido dojo's methodology. The spiritual aspects that you mention are not practiced in my dojo, totally removed. We deal specifically on the Aiki principles of redirecting the opponents energy. We're not traditionalist Aikidoka, that's the difference. So, yes those aspects of accepting Judo or BJJ redirecting energy concepts would seem foreign to your methods. My dojo would be consider heathens in the Aikido world. We don't like the Aikido religious aspects, just the physical applications of the art.

dps
09-23-2008, 10:26 PM
Judo, Aikido, BJJ, are all basically the same thing with emphasis on different aspects (e.g. ground fighting for BJJ, standing throws for Judo, wristlocks for Aikido). The main difference is the degree of aliveness or focus on live sparring..

The main difference between Aikido and Judo is the distance between the opponets when they engage.

Anyway, I would like to hear if anyone has any opinions or thoughts on the possiblity of a more functional-based practice of Aikido or whether such a movement would simply lead, as some have suggested, to an Aikido that looked a lot more like BJJ.

Shodokan Aikido
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY

David

salim
09-23-2008, 10:41 PM
The main difference between Aikido and Judo is the distance between the opponets when they engage.

Shodokan Aikido
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY

David
It's good to see aliveness in Aikido. Shodokan Aikido is probably one of the few Aikido styles that try to implement live training. I commend their efforts. You really see the resistance and it's effect when a technique is applied. Again, great to see this. Why is there a distance variant between how techniques are applied in Shodokan Aikido and Judo?

dps
09-23-2008, 10:55 PM
It's good to see aliveness in Aikido. Shodokan Aikido is probably one of the few Aikido styles that try to implement live training. I commend their efforts. You really see the resistance and it's effect when a technique is applied. Again, great to see this. Why is there a distance variant between how techniques are applied in Shodokan Aikido and Judo?

Different techniques using the body differently.

Judo:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?sa=N&tab=nv&q=google#q=judo%20kano&emb=0

Aikido:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY

ChrisHein
09-23-2008, 10:59 PM
Lots of other Japanese related martial arts incorporate sparring. Like Daido Juku, and Shodokan/Tomiki aikido.

The thing most people seem to over look is that a "fight" is the well from which martial arts systems draw their information, not the other way around. Fights are not based on systems, but instead systems are based on fights.

This means fights always look like fights, but often martial arts systems don't. If you want a more direct answer to your questions read above, Demetrio said it very succinctly.

Even if you want to avoid fighting(some claim this is their reason for studying Aikido), you must study/engage in fights, in order to learn to avoid it. A system is not a fight, so studying it does not make you a fighter, or even give you experience in fighting or avoiding them.

One learns how to walk by walking. Not by thinking about walking or asking others how they walk. You study martial arts to be a martial artist. The system cannot teach you anything beyond what it is, it can only point the way, you have to follow the path.

salim
09-23-2008, 11:12 PM
These guys have stepped up their live training to being very close to what you may experience, to a lessor degree on the streets of America. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

dps
09-23-2008, 11:21 PM
You can see the difference in the following videos:

Kano and Judo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArRoSOtWZ9U

Tomiki and Aikido;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5118263008082625345&ei=o7rZSKWGL4Xc-AHy_ZiaCw&q=tomiki&vt=lf&hl=en

O'Sensei and Aikido;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-dYF-QpLXA

Notice the space between the bodies.

David

mwible
09-24-2008, 10:01 AM
We don't like the Aikido religious aspects, just the physical applications of the art.

So your dojo doesnt like Aikido. It likes Aiki-Jujitsu.

salim
09-24-2008, 10:51 AM
So your dojo doesnt like Aikido. It likes Aiki-Jujitsu.

We like Aikido, but not religious Aikido. We're not traditionalist modern Aikidoka (hence the use of religion). Aikido techniques are just that, Aikido techniques. I respect those who chose Aikido religion, but we would cringe at the thought of Aikido religion methodology as a requirement in our dojo. Everyone in the dojo would probably stop training if that were the case. Thankfully we have a fantastic sensei who's sole purpose is to share his knowledge of the wonderful techniques that Aikido has to offer.

We're more interested in good health, exercise and developing long lasting friendships. We also enjoy learning great self defense techniques while learning to use our bodies in news ways (incorporated BJJ instructor once a week). Religion for us would really be unappealing with our Aikido.

Ketsan
09-24-2008, 10:03 PM
Really it depends on what your Aikido dojo's methodology. The spiritual aspects that you mention are not practiced in my dojo, totally removed. We deal specifically on the Aiki principles of redirecting the opponents energy. We're not traditionalist Aikidoka, that's the difference. So, yes those aspects of accepting Judo or BJJ redirecting energy concepts would seem foreign to your methods. My dojo would be consider heathens in the Aikido world. We don't like the Aikido religious aspects, just the physical applications of the art.

We don't teach them either and we are "traditionalist" Aikidoka, whatever that means.
I'm talking partly on a technical level. Judo is about correctness of technique and applying strength in a tactically sound way, it's use of the Ju principle.
In Aikido we're trying to do something far more advanced and our training methodology reflects that, no amount of sparring will help you develop the skills we are trying to develop.

What I'm really thinking when I say spirit of is an attitude that seems to be passed on somewhere along the line that I've only seen in Aikido. Aikido seems to produce people that are very alert and very switched on off the mat.
To be blunt, when the Judoka I've met train they're thinking about winning or loosing Judo competitions against other Judoka, Aikidoka tend to be thinking about not getting beaten up when they're off the mat and they keep that attitude off the mat and because of it they can become really quite fierce and down right scary even though they're usually the nicest people you could ever wish to meet. Along with this goes a deep sense of personal responsibility.
That is something I'd worry would change if we changed our training.

salim
09-24-2008, 11:23 PM
We don't teach them either and we are "traditionalist" Aikidoka, whatever that means.
I'm talking partly on a technical level. Judo is about correctness of technique and applying strength in a tactically sound way, it's use of the Ju principle.
In Aikido we're trying to do something far more advanced and our training methodology reflects that, no amount of sparring will help you develop the skills we are trying to develop.

What I'm really thinking when I say spirit of is an attitude that seems to be passed on somewhere along the line that I've only seen in Aikido. Aikido seems to produce people that are very alert and very switched on off the mat.
To be blunt, when the Judoka I've met train they're thinking about winning or loosing Judo competitions against other Judoka, Aikidoka tend to be thinking about not getting beaten up when they're off the mat and they keep that attitude off the mat and because of it they can become really quite fierce and down right scary even though they're usually the nicest people you could ever wish to meet. Along with this goes a deep sense of personal responsibility.
That is something I'd worry would change if we changed our training.
I really value live training and I have a new found respect for incorporating BJJ instruction into our Aikido training. I'm too damn old to worry about winning sport competition or macho stuff. I'm almost 40 and good health and learning excellent body movement for good, sound, self defense is our objective.

Most of the guys I train with are professional engineers and scientists. We are a group of 39 to 59 year old men. Some have Judo backgrounds from the early days, some boxing and a couple guys recently learned BJJ from the past few years. The guys with Judo backgrounds are so much more different from what you have experienced. It's never about been about winning or sport competition in our dojo. The 50 year old guys really like BJJ, because it's not about strength. It's about how to move your body efficiently on the ground and executing a technique, much like Aikido standing up (redirecting energy on the ground.) That's the beauty of it. These guys would cringe if that had to depend on strength. They love Aikido/BJJ mixture just as much as I do. It's a lot of fun. Awesome experience, learning how to use your body in ways you may never have imagine.

We're past the stage of adrenaline, sports car, knockdown, power house. We just want to learn effective self defense, live training methods that will help us increase or maintain good health. Maybe even safe a love one or our own life.

Amir Krause
09-25-2008, 08:50 AM
salim

I believe I discussed the free-practice \ Randori \ Shiai issue with L. Camejo while responding to a previous issue you posted:
http://http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=213609&postcount=55 (response in the Full Resistance thread)
Yet, previously in the same thread you seemed to decide I had no idea:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=213529&postcount=39 (previous response)

So, please ignore this response too.

The problem (from a functional standpoint) in Aikido is that even at its most free form, there is always an Uke and a Nage; one person always knows that they are the one applying the technique and the other is getting thrown or pinned...

Anyway, I would like to hear if anyone has any opinions or thoughts on the possiblity of a more functional-based practice of Aikido or whether such a movement would simply lead, as some have suggested, to an Aikido that looked a lot more like BJJ.


There are some Aikido traditions which incorperate free-play. This is true at least for the Shodokan and Korindo Aikido styles, and to the best of my knowledge, it is also true in quite a few other Dojos who choose to add some type of free-play to their regular practice.

As far as I saw so far, this type of practice does not make Aikido look like Judo or like BJJ.
We still choose not to practice "ground fighting".
And, We prefer striking attacks to grabs, thus our typical distancing is quite diffrerent from Judo.

Amir

salim
09-25-2008, 09:35 AM
salim

I believe I discussed the free-practice \ Randori \ Shiai issue with L. Camejo while responding to a previous issue you posted:
http://http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=213609&postcount=55 (response in the Full Resistance thread)
Yet, previously in the same thread you seemed to decide I had no idea:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=213529&postcount=39 (previous response)

So, please ignore this response too.

There are some Aikido traditions which incorperate free-play. This is true at least for the Shodokan and Korindo Aikido styles, and to the best of my knowledge, it is also true in quite a few other Dojos who choose to add some type of free-play to their regular practice.

As far as I saw so far, this type of practice does not make Aikido look like Judo or like BJJ.
We still choose not to practice "ground fighting".
And, We prefer striking attacks to grabs, thus our typical distancing is quite diffrerent from Judo.

Amir
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. Accept my apologizes. I understand your ideas and it's well taken. Your opinion is valued.

rob_liberti
09-27-2008, 10:29 PM
Just curious, since you feel they are basically the same thing.
Do you believe that the goal of aikido is to do least harm? How about judo and bjj?

I think they and all other martial arts are basically the same thing to a certain degree of course.

Rob

salim
09-27-2008, 10:56 PM
Just curious, since you feel they are basically the same thing.
Do you believe that the goal of aikido is to do least harm? How about judo and bjj?

I think they and all other martial arts are basically the same thing to a certain degree of course.

Rob
Yes, I believe that Judo and BJJ were develop to do less harm, subdue the attacker. When you look at the history of both Judo and BJJ, the originators of these arts were smaller, not as strong and used redirection of the opponents energy, using various locks. The differences is the Aikido's religious spectrum went further than Judo or BJJ. Almost extreme in it's methodology.

Kevin Leavitt
09-27-2008, 11:14 PM
The methodologies are really all the same....at the core it is jiujitsu. Least harm or most harm....JJ is JJ is JJ.

It is the choice of the person applying and the level of skill that pretty much determines the whole least harm thing.

I don't think you can practice exclusively least harm, if you do, I think you end up with a dangerous lack of skill that actually ends up causing more harm.

The whole spirtual/relgious thing I think gets objectified way too much.

Budo is about hard training. Spirit is built through hard, realistic training, that is how you build, refine, and calm it.

Not through some pseudo feel good process that is essentially hollow.

SeiserL
09-28-2008, 07:32 AM
Budo is about hard training. Spirit is built through hard, realistic training, that is how you build, refine, and calm it.

Yes, what he said.
A kindred spirit.
Thank you.