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Buck
09-21-2008, 04:38 PM
...regarding someone with love during attack is not spiritual, then what is?

At first sight upon reading the quote doesn't make sense to most anyone walking on the mat for the first time. Attack isn't normally associated with love. Have you ever heard someone say I am going to attack you with love? Love isn't thought of as spiritual very often when attacking. Turning the other cheek makes a whole lot more sense to many more than attacking with love being an act of spirituality.

Aikido's spirituality is unique. It is full of seemingly contradictions of vague poetic verses. A spirituality that may have never been intended to be followed verbatim, or standardize form as other religions are. There is no congreation etc.

Because of Aikido's unique spirituality that may in other instances lose all spiritual credibility because of it's conventional spiritual disconnections and at first glance what seems to be contradictions. Yet, it hasn't. Other religions have lost credibility for less.

Aikido students number the millions around the world, and are very dedicated to it and the spirituality as new students continue to join.

I feel that the power of those attracted to Aikido is in it's spirituality first then technique. That those seeking the spiritual element embrace for any number of reasons the seemingly disconnected spirituality. that is what is attractive, gives Aikido spirituality the mystique of the east, and it's individuality. And that Aikido spirituality isn't as dense or layered as well known religions. Aikido spirituality doesn't have all those complex arguments of existence and the dimensions of God, why are we here and all those classic thoughts.

I think this says allot about people. By attacking with love is a spiritual act may not be understood instantly, but neither are people and that is what makes Aikido spiritual in one way; intended or not.

Joe McParland
09-21-2008, 11:03 PM
Attack with love? Why not? We kill with love sometimes too, no? We kill suffering animals and sometimes people---including criminals, loved ones, would-be children, and even ourselves---with the best of intentions. People beat the shit out of each other in striking arts all of the time without their spirituality suffering for it---and with some of the same end goals as those we hold in aikido.

So, what makes you say, "Aikido's spirituality is unique"?

But moving past there for a moment, with specific regard to what "attacking with love" means to Aikido:

I can attack with love. I can attack with lust. I can attack with hate. I can attack with apprehension, fearful of unfamiliar or difficult ukemi. I can attack in a way so as to impress my peers or the instructor. I can attack in such a way as to thwart nage. I can even attack thinking, "Mmmmm... I LOVE COOKIES!!!" too.

Why not?

Because it's contrary to our training. That's why not.

Attacking or defending with anything in mind defeats the usual objectives of mushin, zanshin, takemusu, and their ilk. That warning would sensibly apply both to nage and to uke.

SeiserL
09-22-2008, 07:56 AM
I had learned that warriors don't attack because they hate the enemy, but because they love the people they are protecting.

I also heard that if you attack with the intent of helping another see the errors of their way, rather than ego control or fear, then the attack come from a good place.

jennifer paige smith
09-22-2008, 09:11 AM
"You don't cut the man. You cut the devil out of his Kharma."
-Terry Dobson

Joe McParland
09-22-2008, 09:18 AM
I had learned that warriors don't attack because they hate the enemy, but because they love the people they are protecting.

In my experience, a true warrior's circumstances put him in the situations to use his skills, but his skills operate without mind according to his training in the moment.

Love of right and justice may have a person train to become a police officer; the sense of duty may have him respond to a call; but, those things should not be on his mind when he draws and pulls the trigger of his service weapon.

I also heard that if you attack with the intent of helping another see the errors of their way, rather than ego control or fear, then the attack come from a good place.

Tomás de Torquemada?

KamiKaze_Evolution
09-30-2008, 05:11 AM
Both yes and not, love concept is actually available in scholar teaching beside spiritual and love is actually wider than human's thinking not only relationship.

Michael Douglas
10-03-2008, 11:07 AM
I agree with Joe.

Torquemada!

Don_Modesto
10-03-2008, 11:32 AM
What if love doesn't mean for Osensei what it means for us?

(Harmony certainly doesn't...)

Aikibu
10-03-2008, 12:49 PM
I can only answer for myself but the belief "Budo is Love" is the main thing that compels me to continue trudging the path of happy destiny up the mountain. :)

William Hazen

woodyard
10-17-2008, 02:02 PM
Aikido means many different things to many different people. In my forty years on this planet I have never once been involved in a physical altercation. Could it happen...maybe, do I train to prepare for this possibility, absolutely not. We all train for our own reasons but most of us live in countries that have evolved beyond the primal fight or flight reaction. So, in real life, the question in most cases is moot.

On the mat however...does one attack with love? What's your definition of love? My feeling is that you shouldn't be thinking about anything other than the movement when you're on the mat. By doing this you incorporate the piece of yourself that you're about to share with your partner into your movement. Isn't that what art is? Martial arts are no different. It's an expression of who you are. We've all trained with people and felt a special connection and we've also trained with people who rub us wrong or even where we felt no connection at all. Is one of these partners better than the other...I don't think so. Every time I train I express some different element of myself. Sometimes it feels good sometimes not. But what matters to me is that I'm connecting with myself and my partner and learning from it.

But most of the time I have no idea what I'm doing anyway...:)

judojo
10-21-2008, 07:07 AM
Dear Senseis, I know little of Ai but it is just the Love because the this is more on Mukuso or the charity in the in the religion of christianity. The churches always emphasize the flower of the fellowship. Reynaldo L. Albaño

Buck
10-26-2008, 10:57 AM
I took that quote that started this thread from someone else. It gave me the sense that if I was a newbie to Aikido that I might put it into my own context automatically. Instead of, perhaps, putting the meaning off until I learned more.

Keeping with that thought, I think Aikido is a wonderful thing. It is really a unique experience. I like the whole idea that when (suppose to, it doesn't always happen) that when you get on the mat and train the people are not out to hurt you. They are friendly and don't bully, haze, harass, and try and attempt to break you mentally and physically, kind of like a bootcamp etc. -well they aren't suppose too.

You can walk on the mat and not feel it is some kind of pseudo boot-camp where you will be turned into a fighting machine. But instead, you can train in an atmosphere much like a recreational sport to that of an exercise group to your liking.

I think that is the spirit of Aikido, I hope am right.

Harm-ony
11-01-2008, 01:20 PM
the spirit of 'love' attitude, not no destruct anything, just caring....
and 'acceptance' attitude in training....
to help us in 'relaxing' ourselves...
maybe... :)

Peace and Love,

Kevin Leavitt
11-01-2008, 03:10 PM
Dali Lama on Compassion. A very interesting read. Please read down through the interview toward the end on his comments on war and violence.

http://www.spiritsound.com/bhikshu.html

I tend to prefer to use the word Compassion vice Love as I think Compassion has deeper meaning when we talk about what it is we do (or try to) in Aikido.

Dan Richards
02-21-2009, 04:35 AM
By attacking with love is a spiritual act may not be understood instantly, but neither are people and that is what makes Aikido spiritual in one way; intended or not.

I wonder if dishonest and uncoordinated attacks are love? Are pulled punches full of love? Is a shomenuchi that swipes the side of the head - rather than cutting through the center - offering something that's "true" to nage?

Janet Rosen
02-23-2009, 11:08 PM
I don't think of "attacking with love" as meaning that I experience the emotion of love while attacking or directed at my partner. I think of it as giving the best, most sincere and in the moment attack that I can at the time. This action is a manifestation of love.
YMMV.

Buck
02-24-2009, 07:49 AM
I wonder if dishonest and uncoordinated attacks are love? Are pulled punches full of love? Is a shomenuchi that swipes the side of the head - rather than cutting through the center - offering something that's "true" to nage?

Being OT, I really think, it is more like this.

I think there is confusion with the word "love" which really IMO is to mean mercy instead of our western definition or concept of love (noun or verb).

The idea of mercy comes from traditional Japanese ethics that is in the Hagakure and is the 4th line in the Bushido oath: We shall have mercy upon others and do good to them. Mercy is a much better word. Perhaps, love is used it seems to be a langauge translation issue or lack of western philosophical education, or both. Maybe to O'Sensei not killing someone was, when translated to westerners, was love. At any rate it makes more sense and accuracy to use the idea of mercy. Love is so complicated as it is.

O'Sensei if he was a martial artist subscribed Japanese ethics and stuff. It was not obscure stuff, it was as common to him and all Japanese as the Golden Rule or what a Good Samaritan is too us.

I think not beating the stuffing out of your fellow students or trying to cripple them during training may fall under mercy thus appropriate training. And is what the new Japanese arts like Aikido, Judo, Karate etc. where trying to achieve as part of Japan's reforming it's self from feudal to civil. I strongly feel they where trying to do the same. Which I think translates to how our sports started such as gymnastics starting as warrior training to sports competition.

Within each person and dojo, there is a range of training and individual choices made in the intensity of training and training philosophy. Not always is there a match. But, there is I think a limit. I think you have to take training along the same lines as training in a sport. You have to be serious about it. You have to see it simply and honestly it for what it is, and not as something you want it to be or would like it to be. It isn't a fanciful romp in a field of daisy having a gentle breeze blow threw your hair and hakama. I don't think it is a bone crushing, blood squirting, flesh searing, Quentin Tarantino Smack Down orgy either. IMO, it is a Japanese sport and falls along the lines of, originating as, being and having a Japanese minded approached to modern sport. That would be to give 110% into it. IMMHAO.

If Aikido was about "love".... never mind I won't go there. :)

Buck
02-24-2009, 07:55 AM
Acronym Defined that I used: In My Most Humble Aikido Opinion. Or I just got happy making key strokes.

mathewjgano
02-24-2009, 10:18 AM
I'm not sure I'm reading the meanings correctly, but I get the sense that some folks have equated the idea of "attacking with love" as simply doing your best, and that doesn't seem to fit with my take on things. I think of that as sincerity. To me the love aspect of Aikido has to do with being other-regarding, regardless of the other. Situations dictate different responses (my loving action may still conceivably end an attacker's life), but what matters here is that our actions are shaped by a sense of concern for everyone, even those who wish us harm. It is too easy to write off those who cause us pain and to dismiss their value...in my opinion.
As for whether or not it's spiritual...I'll take the easy answer: "maybe.":D

jonreading
02-25-2009, 11:31 AM
I dont know as though I am sold on this, "attack with love," thing. I am familar with several references to warriors acting with compassion, which could include physical attacks. As part of my training, I seek to learn compassion for my enemy to help better judge my opponent. Compassion is what helps us see the other side of the story. Compassion is what directs my technique to either break my opponent or pin my opponent. Compassion is a critical component to learning how to resolve conflict, i.e. "what does my enemy want?"

For example, a warrior acting with compassion could assist another to commit sepuku, the resulting blow killing an individual. Or, a warrior acting with compassion could stay a killing blow while fighting a drunk person incapable of harming the warrior. Both of these examples demonstrate compassion from a warrior choosing how best to act in a situation.

"Living the Martial Way" is a great book that talks about similar concepts like honor and compassion. It's a great read for aikido people even though it is not an aikido book.

Janet Rosen
02-25-2009, 03:12 PM
I'm not sure I'm reading the meanings correctly, but I get the sense that some folks have equated the idea of "attacking with love" as simply doing your best, and that doesn't seem to fit with my take on things. I think of that as sincerity:D
Matthew, I know I did write something like that but what I wrote, or meant to, was that it attacking that way is a MANIFESTATION of love. What I mean is, an outward demonstration of being willing to engage fully and with an open heart. Which to me IS a part of love.

mathewjgano
02-26-2009, 02:13 PM
Matthew, I know I did write something like that but what I wrote, or meant to, was that it attacking that way is a MANIFESTATION of love. What I mean is, an outward demonstration of being willing to engage fully and with an open heart. Which to me IS a part of love.

Hi Janet,
I see what you mean now. Thanks for the clarification!
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
02-26-2009, 02:16 PM
I dont know as though I am sold on this, "attack with love," thing.

How so? I see what you're saying about acting with compassion, but what makes the difference between compassion and love to your mind?