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MM
09-09-2008, 08:15 AM
From Aikido Journal 103 (Vol 22, no 2)

Stan Pranin replies to a Letter to the Editor from Patrick Lynch


The statement regarding Saito Sensei's being the "world's leading technical expert" may seem like a lot of advertising hype, but the words were chosen very carefully and supported with ample historical evidence in the introductory essay of Takemusu Aikido, Vol I. If you have read this essay and are not convinced so be it. Even if all may not agree, still a strong argument can be advanced for the statement that Saito Sensei is O-Sensei's "technical heir." While Doshu is indeed the "Leader of the Way," I consider his role primarily organizational and symbolic rather than technical.

The view that aikido techniques are preserved just as the founder created them at the Hombu Dojo is completely untenable. Vast differences can even be seen in the curriculum today compared with that of thirty years ago in the books published by Doshu and Koichi Tohei Sensei. The number of techniques taught has been greatly reduced and big, flowing movements have been introduced. Did anyone ever see O-Sensei perform iriminage the way it is commonly executed today? This is not to say that any one way of practicing or one type of technique is better than another. But it is clear that both the practice and techniques have undergone great transformations over the years.

Finally, your comment about the ken and jo not being taught at the Aikikai because there is "no room" is off the mark. Saito Sensei taught the ken and jo both in the old Hombu and the new Hombu building for about eight or nine years. O-Sensei forbade the use of weapons because he did not feel that the instructors at that time were competent to teach these weapons.

MM
09-09-2008, 08:17 AM
From Aikido Journal 103 (Vol 22, no 2)

An Interview with David Lynch


Shioda Sensei, like many other former students of O-Sensei, felt that O-Sensei's teaching was unsystematic, and he therefore devised his own set of basic exercises that were intended to make the art easier for the average person to learn. These basic exercises (hiriki no yosei and shumatsu dosa, for instance) are not found in other dojos.

MM
09-09-2008, 08:58 AM
The actual translated meanings might not be what we are using right now. Consider this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15055

and this one

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15054

So, if taisabaki isn't just body movements and timing isn't about actual timing and feelings aren't about well, feelings ...

If they are about core structural body manipulations, controlling an opponent's ki and intent, then, that changes quite a bit of the translated works ...

and not only that, but it starts to make sense of all these threads about structure and aiki ...

and ties them all into what some of the greats were saying and doing.

MM
09-09-2008, 09:03 AM
So, from this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14991

Where have all those seemingly normal tests that Ueshiba did throughout his life go?

Sure, the Ki Society states that they do "push tests", but do they do the same ones that Ueshiba did? Does uke push so hard that they slide backwards? Do they offer an arm and have uke try *anything*?

Yoshinkan? Shodokan? Iwama? Yoseikan? Any Organization? What happened to this fundamental exercise? Where in your Aikido is it?

MM
09-09-2008, 09:24 AM
Ueshiba: 1915-1919 and he started teaching. Was being regarded as strong. He only got better. Never any long time frames of training with Takeda.

Tomiki: 1925-1936 and he started teaching ... in Manchuria.

Shioda: 1932-1937 and then sent to China. Supposedly trained on and off for about ten years.

Etc.

Why did it take them so few years to become good? Tomiki had a background before he met Ueshiba and it did him no good. Ueshiba had a background when he met Takeda and it did him no good. If those backgrounds were so solid that they "helped" them get better, why was it that every one of them (Ueshiba meeting Takeda, Tomiki meeting Ueshiba, well, everyone meeting Takeda and everyone meeting Ueshiba) was tossed like a rag doll and treated as if they were children in the hands of a parent? Their prior training counted for nothing. Their prior training could do nothing to stop or counter anything.

So, Ueshiba, with all his prior "training" gets manhandled. But then goes on in less than ten years to become someone who manhandles. Tomiki with all his prior training gets tossed about effortlessly like a rag doll some 63 different ways but then in very little time starts tossing judoka around.

Why?

And then we get to Kisshomaru and Tohei ... Where are their students who turned the budo world upside down? Tossed men as ragdolls? Took on anyone and showed the merit of Aikido?

Who taught what?

MM
09-09-2008, 12:18 PM
From Aikido Journal 106 (Vol 23 No.1)


Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba even goes so far as to state that the main relevance of aikido in modern society is as a vehicle for developing better members of society more so than as a martial art.


More spiritual? You're doing Kisshomaru's ... well, one can't call it a martial art, can one? If it's developing better members of society, it really isn't aiki. Wa would be a better term, I think. Harmony of society? Did I get that right? But, even in the generic sense of the term, I can't really see it described as aikido. Anyone care to comment?

DH
09-09-2008, 12:38 PM
Ueshiba: 1915-1919 and he started teaching. Was being regarded as strong. He only got better. Never any long time frames of training with Takeda.

Tomiki: 1925-1936 and he started teaching ... in Manchuria.

Shioda: 1932-1937 and then sent to China. Supposedly trained on and off for about ten years.

Etc.

Why did it take them so few years to become good?


Because once you understand how to train your body and the means to move with it. The rest takes care of itself.

Once again for the incredibly brainwashed on the long learning curve track:

Takeda made 5 great men who's arts are drastically different from each other.
One of those was Ueshiba

Ueshiba made just a few greats who's arts are....?
drastically different from each other.

I never bought this 20 yr long learning curve stuff, I and others, and their students are living proof of that. All it proves to me is that teachers don't know how to teach or more importantly WHAT to teach.
That's it. Twenty years to get aiki is either incompetence, ignorance, or a lie.

MM
09-09-2008, 12:44 PM
Aikido Journal Issue 106

From an interview with Seishiro Endo.

The question was: What was Tohei Sensei's teaching like?


Overall I thought he made things easy to learn. Thinking about it now, though, I realize his teaching methods were influenced a great deal by Tempu Nakamura.


Which had greater influence on Tohei: Nakamura or Ueshiba? Seems like it was Nakamura. So, which aikido is Tohei doing?

ChrisMoses
09-09-2008, 12:55 PM
When I started training with Neil he told me that anyone who was any good at teaching could transmit *most* of what they knew in about 5-6 years to a good student. Note that I said *most* not all. I don't think he was talking about specific techniques here, but rather building a really solid foundation that can serve the student going forward. I think there's also a big difference between *mastery* after 6 years or so and having transferred the basic concepts and tools necessary to embody the art and continue their own development and improvement. I think a lot of *teachers* have a real problem with this idea. I know a few schools in town where as a student reaches this point in their training, the mind-games seem to creep in. I think it's the rare teacher who can both acknowledge this rather finite time line where there is a distinct master-student relationship and still remain relevant and supportive throughout the change in the relationship that naturally occurs. Too often it seems to become antagonistic. Like Dan said, 20 years is ridiculous.

ChrisMoses
09-09-2008, 12:57 PM
Which had greater influence on Tohei: Nakamura or Ueshiba? Seems like it was Nakamura. So, which aikido is Tohei doing?

Don't confuse the art with the teaching style/methodology. Toby Threadgill has talked about how his teaching style very much reflects his European fencing teacher, but the art he transmits is entirely TSYR. :)

MM
09-09-2008, 01:06 PM
Don't confuse the art with the teaching style/methodology. Toby Threadgill has talked about how his teaching style very much reflects his European fencing teacher, but the art he transmits is entirely TSYR. :)

I thought about that. And even thought about adding the quote from Tohei about the only thing Ueshiba taught him was to relax. But since I couldn't find the quote, I didn't want to mess with it right now. :) Sooo, I guess I'll have to dig up the quote and find the context.

Also, it seems Tohei and Ueshiba disagreed on other things as well if you take the Hawaii trip and Tohei out drinking all night example.

DH
09-09-2008, 01:17 PM
What Chris said

I did want to add one thing.
I have never....NEVER...stopped improving. My training with people who've been here for years has been credited with a series of power and sensitivity *jumps* in the early nineties, late nineties, 2002, 2005, and this very year. All that *they* define and tell me about. Why? I keep experimenting, researching, throwing away, and building on, year after year. My people have power -after three years or so- that is substantial, but I stay ahead of them, even though I continue to show them what I am doing.
So forgetting waza, the creative budoka can continure to grow in power twenty, thirty, forty years later. Mant of the besr aiki men have all said in later years "I am more powerful now than I have ever been."
sadly, most folks have not understand "what" they were saying, and "how" to get there.

ChrisMoses
09-09-2008, 01:26 PM
I thought about that. And even thought about adding the quote from Tohei about the only thing Ueshiba taught him was to relax.

Tohei also was kind of full of himself and seriously downplayed Ueshiba's influence.

Kind of like how Ueshiba was (gonna catch it for this one) kind of full of himself and downplayed Takeda's influence.

And like how Takeda was kind of full of himself and downplayed, er, SOMEBODY's influence. I mean, he downplayed it so much no one is really sure where DR even came from! :D

Demetrio Cereijo
09-09-2008, 01:35 PM
If it's developing better members of society, it really isn't aiki.

It's Judo, as Kano saw it.

MM
09-09-2008, 01:39 PM
I did want to add one thing.
I have never....NEVER...stopped improving. My training with people who've been here for years has been credited with a series of power and sensitivity *jumps* in the early nineties, late nineties, 2002, 2005, and this very year.


Yeah, I remember feeling a punch from you sometime last year and then another from you earlier this year. Very different. I kept trying to get Chris or Brian to volunteer to feel your "soft" punch, but they wanted nothing to do with the idea. :)


My people have power -after three years or so- that is substantial,


Huh. And all I got to learn was to step back. LOL! :D


but I stay ahead of them, even though I continue to show them what I am doing.


Nature of the game. It's why Takeda stayed ahead of Ueshiba and Sagawa. Why Ueshiba stayed ahead of Shioda and Tomiki. Unless one of them completely stops training, they progress.


So forgetting waza, the creative budoka can continure to grow in power twenty, thirty, forty years later. Mant of the besr aiki men have all said in later years "I am more powerful now than I have ever been."
sadly, most folks have not understand "what" they were saying, and "how" to get there.

That may change sooner rather than never. :)

ChrisMoses
09-09-2008, 01:56 PM
It's Judo, as Kano saw it.

Actually most budo that I'm familiar with specifically would either say this is THE goal or a very important aspect of training.

DH
09-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Yeah, I remember feeling a punch from you sometime last year and then another from you earlier this year. Very different. I kept trying to get Chris or Brian to volunteer to feel your "soft" punch, but they wanted nothing to do with the idea. :)


You know, because of my own proclivities- I think I tend to talk more about power delivery than the obverse-sensitivity.
They are one and the same. I don't train one over the other. I train me. What receives-feeds.
It is the sensitivity in touch that creates so many opportunities in grappling to delver that power, the power is just-there.

MM
09-09-2008, 02:02 PM
You know, because of my own proclivities- I think I tend to talk more about power delivery than the obverse-sensitivity.
They are one and the same. I don't train one over the other. I train me. What receives-feeds.
It is the sensitivity in touch that creates so many opportunities in grappling to delver that power, the power is just-there.

Erg, maybe next time I'm up there, we can discuss this a bit more. I think I'm missing something or it just seems like it. :)

DH
09-09-2008, 02:09 PM
Actually most budo that I'm familiar with specifically would either say this is THE goal or a very important aspect of training.

I don't see it as a goal at all. My goal is to win and defeat. To stop agression and make-safe. Mercy belongs in the hands of the victor sort of thing.

The production of good citizens etc, can be a side benefit, but there are just as many jerks in budo as anywhere else. And in the do arts, the non-tested arts- tend to attract passive agressive and abusive behaviour. Aikidoka seem to want to continually point that out all the time.

The reason I love Grapplers so much is that once you have learned through trial and error and constant failure, victory and falure don't mean sooo much that your personality is affected much by it either way.It's just another day at the office

DH
09-09-2008, 02:15 PM
Erg, maybe next time I'm up there, we can discuss this a bit more. I think I'm missing something or it just seems like it. :)

No your not;) .
Lines go in, lines go out,
What receives-feeds
What feeds-receives
While I am in the middle of me

How I effect change and affect you is what I am doing; negative / positive. I take away or add. And either way just support the opposite while -you- have to deal with the results.:cool:

gdandscompserv
09-09-2008, 03:13 PM
The reason I love Grapplers so much is that once you have learned through trial and error and constant failure, victory and falure don't mean sooo much that your personality is affected much by it either way.It's just another day at the office
Your statement reminded me of when I was a freshman in high school. The wrestling team had no 'heavyweight' at the time. The coach talked me into wrestling at that 'weight.' I decided I would try it as I really enjoyed wrestling. I only won one match that entire year. Interestingly, after the first few beatings, my ego got out of the way and I became a good student of the art. It became more about learning than it did winning or losing. My wrestling skills advanced rather rapidly after that. I always picked more advanced wrestlers to train with at practice as I felt I could learn so much more from them.

gdandscompserv
09-09-2008, 03:23 PM
No your not;) .
Lines go in, lines go out,
What receives-feeds
What feeds-receives
While I am in the middle of me

How I effect change and affect you is what I am doing; negative / positive. I take away or add. And either way just support the opposite while -you- have to deal with the results.:cool:
Treatise Seven perhaps?

DH
09-09-2008, 03:27 PM
Your statement reminded me of when I was a freshman in high school. The wrestling team had no 'heavyweight' at the time. The coach talked me into wrestling at that 'weight.' I decided I would try it as I really enjoyed wrestling. I only won one match that entire year. Interestingly, after the first few beatings, my ego got out of the way and I became a good student of the art. It became more about learning than it did winning or losing. My wrestling skills advanced rather rapidly after that. I always picked more advanced wrestlers to train with at practice as I felt I could learn so much more from them.
I always tell people I had to come home and practice and learn to use aiki in a judo dojo with a bunch friends, students and my wifes wrestling cousins. All of whom's advice to me at the time was "Dan, no offence man, but that fruitcake stuff isn't going to work.'
On any other day rolling and banging-not a problem. Aiki?-fail, fail, fail.
So, how'd I learn to train my body and use aiki? From the flat of my back.
Interestingly enough I still have a grappler training with me from back then-his name's Andy. The guy's from aikiweb who come to train here like him- all 290lbs of him. His opinion of this stuff...changed.;)

ChrisMoses
09-09-2008, 03:39 PM
I don't see it as a goal at all. My goal is to win and defeat.

Today, while the classical martial arts are being made available to the public and their techniques preserved, it is my opinion that the spiritual component - which should form the base of those techniques and give direction to practitioners - is missing.

and

I strongly hope that the spiritual component of the classical martial arts can make some positive contribution to our modern materialistic world.

Iizasa Shurinosuke Yasusada
12th Generation TSKSR Headmaster (as translated in the forward to "Katori Shinto Ryu, Warrior Tradition (2007)

and

If one were to remove the core element of bushido - the martial virtue of humility - from kobudo, all that would remain would be mere violence. Martial arts imbued with moral or humane sentiments are the only true budo.

Otake Ritsuke (p. 41, same source)

/just sayin'... :cool:

DH
09-09-2008, 04:03 PM
You missed my point Chris.
In that it's not *a goal.*
It is part of the training.
It's an end result that's created through good training with the right mindset. It happens.
Trying to make it a "goal" has for the most part made it an artiface in many places. It's what the do arts have stated as a goal for years, and have failed sometimes to pull off.
I offered the grappler model as a countepoint of modern men who manage to find it uplifting and life affirming in many ways. As Ricky noted as well.

Chris Covington
09-09-2008, 04:58 PM
Dan,

I'm a little curious about your statements. In one thread you seem to be saying two very different and contradicting things.

" Twenty years to get aiki is either incompetence, ignorance, or a lie."

Okay fair enough, but then you say of yourself:

"I have never....NEVER...stopped improving. My training with people who've been here for years has been credited with a series of power and sensitivity *jumps* in the early nineties, late nineties, 2002, 2005, and this very year."

Since 2009 is upon us it looks like you're talking 19 years (give or take) to get your aiki skills. So are you incompetent, ignorant, or lying? :)

Or maybe there really is no shortcut? All the tanren, solo aiki building, yijinjing, qi gong, standing under a waterfall, shiko, kata, suburi, or whatever else you may do, can only take you so far... you need time in.

DH
09-09-2008, 05:40 PM
Dan,

I'm a little curious about your statements. In one thread you seem to be saying two very different and contradicting things.

" Twenty years to get aiki is either incompetence, ignorance, or a lie."

Okay fair enough, but then you say of yourself:

"I have never....NEVER...stopped improving. My training with people who've been here for years has been credited with a series of power and sensitivity *jumps* in the early nineties, late nineties, 2002, 2005, and this very year."

Or maybe there really is no shortcut? All the tanren, solo aiki building, yijinjing, qi gong, standing under a waterfall, shiko, kata, suburi, or whatever else you may do, can only take you so far... you need time in
Hi Chris.
I don't do Chinese stuff. I don't know Baji from taiji to Xing-I. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I do Daito ryu aiki.
And no there isn't a contradiction to be found. In fact I said it pretty clearly. You're confusing the growth curve with initially *getting it*. There is a training method to get aiki that has not one thing to do with waza. Nothing. Some choose to do the jujutsu, aikijujutsu, aiki-no-jutsu, path. Others don't. You can do both aiki and mma jujutsu together as well.
If you call sweating your butt off, intensely training for hours, every day at home and at the dojo 20 hours a week a shortcut-then yes.
I call it shugyo. It doesn't take twenty years, it take about three to get it and then build from there. You only get better. And right here, you have hundreds of guys who have felt your teacher, Kiyama, Goldberg, Okomoto and others, many times. some are students, who have found the discussions we are having, and the physical comparisons to be valid, true and in their estimation how they have chosen to train. Having felt them, and also Saotome, Chiba and others in aikido as well and then feeling students of ours with one-three years and in my case up to fifteen, they have a pretty clear picture of what I mean.
I'm glad your happy with your training

Chris Covington
09-09-2008, 07:08 PM
Hi Dan,

"I don't do Chinese stuff. I don't know Baji from taiji to Xing-I. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I do Daito ryu aiki."

I never said you did Chinese stuff. I'm sorry if my post implied you did. You do Daito-ryu aiki? I thought you didn't do Daito-ryu? If you don't do Daito-ryu how do you know what you're doing is Daito-ryu aiki? Who did you learn Daito-ryu aiki from? For how long? I was under the impression you only studied breifly at a few seminars? You must be very skilled to pick up aiki at a few seminars for the open public! It looks like we have another Sagawa on our hands :)

"If you call sweating your butt off, intensely training for hours, every day at home and at the dojo 20 hours a week a shortcut-then yes."

Now here we agree. It's time in. There are no shortcuts to aiki, and solo training is just one of many tools you need to get it. You may get help on the learning curve but you still need to put in the time.

"I'm glad your happy with your training"

I am and I'm glad you're happy with yours.

MM
09-09-2008, 08:22 PM
Chris,
Hi. I started this thread with the topic of "aikido" and the various changes that have been made to them throughout the years. I really do plan on starting a thread soon about aikido and daito ryu. Could you either create another thread for your questions posed here or wait until I start that thread? (Really, though, if you did some research here on Aikiweb and on E-Budo, you'd find the answers to most of your questions.)

Thanks,
Mark

rob_liberti
09-09-2008, 08:22 PM
Chris.

Training aiki directly in 5 years the way Dan is showing it seems to get you way past what others do in 20-25 years. Dan is about 15 years past that level... But, I think if you have your own way to do this and don't want to drink the Cool aide, by all means, start inviting people from aikiweb to visit you and start impressing every single one of them with your power and ability to teach it without fail like Dan has. Or Mike, Or Aukuzawa.

If not, can we just make some "annoy the guy trying to help us" thread for people to pick fights and you can feel free to post there to your hearts content.

Rob

ChrisMoses
09-09-2008, 08:43 PM
You missed my point Chris.
In that it's not *a goal.*
It is part of the training.
It's an end result that's created through good training with the right mindset. It happens.
Trying to make it a "goal" has for the most part made it an artiface in many places. It's what the do arts have stated as a goal for years, and have failed sometimes to pull off.


Hmm, we're talking past each other a bit and I also feel you're contradicting yourself here.

From Wikipedia:
A goal or objective consists of a projected state of affairs which a person or a system plans or intends to achieve or bring about a personal or organizational desired end-point in some sort of assumed development.

I think the actual problem is that instead of personal development being a goal of training (meaning a desired endstate) it's approached as a part of training. In other words, train in budo with earnest and you will (possibly) become a better person *rather than* try to be a better person and as a result you will be a better budoka.

It can't be an end result and a part of training at the same time. I think we actually agree here Dan, but we might be talking past each other. I imagine that if you approached Relnick Sensei and said, "I want to train here so that I can defeat all opponents and learn to be the most efficient killer that I can possibly be" he would have shown you the door. That side of the arts (in the modern context) isn't the goal of the art, but it is a place you have to go to in order to approach the training with honesty.

As another example, while talking with our soke a number of years ago, he was adamant that one needed to train as if one was preparing to harm and kill, and yet he was equally adamant that the reason for training (the goal) was to become a better person. Ironically, it was only by entering into that very aggressive training paradigm is one able to make the actual personal improvements.

This year, I started doing trackdays with my motorcycle, and I'll be damned if you don't some of the nicest most genuine and honest people I have ever met out on the track. Why? Because as opposed to dojo martial artists (a term which certainly applies to me) these guys all really go out and put their life on the line with each other. You cannot take anything for granted in that environment and you cannot afford to suffer fools. Shinken shobu indeed. :)

Like I said I think we actually agree here.

phitruong
09-09-2008, 09:52 PM
No your not;) .
Lines go in, lines go out,
What receives-feeds
What feeds-receives
While I am in the middle of me

How I effect change and affect you is what I am doing; negative / positive. I take away or add. And either way just support the opposite while -you- have to deal with the results.:cool:

hot damn! I actually understood that! (couldn't do it, but understand it, ask me again in a year or two) spent a weekend picking up some very very basic stuffs from Mike. and what you have stated made perfect sense. damn! someone please smack me senseless because I shouldn't be infected by these sort of stuffs. It's going to mess up my aikido. we can't have that! can't have those aiki nonsense stuffs in my aikido. :eek:

:D

Erick Mead
09-09-2008, 10:35 PM
Dan,

I'm a little curious about your statements. In one thread you seem to be saying two very different and contradicting things.

" Twenty years to get aiki is either incompetence, ignorance, or a lie."

Okay fair enough, but then you say of yourself:

"I have never....NEVER...stopped improving. My training with people who've been here for years has been credited with a series of power and sensitivity *jumps* in the early nineties, late nineties, 2002, 2005, and this very year."

Since 2009 is upon us it looks like you're talking 19 years (give or take) to get your aiki skills. So are you incompetent, ignorant, or lying? :)

Or maybe there really is no shortcut? All the tanren, solo aiki building, yijinjing, qi gong, standing under a waterfall, shiko, kata, suburi, or whatever else you may do, can only take you so far... you need time in.Um. Yeah. Mindful time . The first quote you gave has Dan contradicting Sagawa, whom he quotes on the value of solo tanren -- and crusty as Sagawa seems in Kimura's recounting -- he does not come off as a liar, and I discount the two other alternatives.

Mr. Murray's comments funneling your comments elsewhere notwithstanding, your perspective is valued here.

Upyu
09-10-2008, 02:12 AM
Um. Yeah. Mindful time . The first quote you gave has Dan contradicting Sagawa, whom he quotes on the value of solo tanren -- and crusty as Sagawa seems in Kimura's recounting -- he does not come off as a liar, and I discount the two other alternatives.

Mr. Murray's comments funneling your comments elsewhere notwithstanding, your perspective is valued here.

I disagree that Dan contradicts Sagawa Erick.
Frankly Sagawa contradicts himself several times throughout the book if you want to be factual.

Sagawa said he "grasped" the secret to Aiki at 17.
What Sagawa most likely referred to as "Aiki" in his later years, and said that it would take 20 years or more to "get," is the end result of refinements and complexities added on that increase the power/delivery/manipulation/efficiency of the fundamental concept he grasped at 17.

Which is why he spent so much time experimenting on different training methodologies. Honestly, after reading the book, I got the impression that he spent a good 20 years just looking for the correct training that would supplement the skill he got at 17 ;)

MM
09-10-2008, 07:44 AM
Don't confuse the art with the teaching style/methodology. Toby Threadgill has talked about how his teaching style very much reflects his European fencing teacher, but the art he transmits is entirely TSYR. :)

Chris,
Found the article where Tohei is interviewed. It's from Aikido Journal Issue 107. Below are the relevant bits.


At the same time I was continuing my training at the Ichikukai. I used to stay there overnight and practice zazen and misogi. The training focused on achieving a kind of enlightened state in which both body and mind become entirely free from restraint. It was exhausting, and afterwards I would rush to aikido practice, already dead tired. To my surprise, I found that in that state people who could always throw me before were completely unable to do so! It didn't take much effort to throw them, either.


and


I thought about Ueshiba Sensei and realized that he was indeed relaxed when he did his aikido. It was then that I suddenly understood the real meaning of "relax."
My aikido continued to progress as I continued with my misogi and zazen. After six months or so I was even sent to teach at places like the military police academy in Nakano and the private school (juku) of Shumei Okawa. No one except Sensei could throw me. It took me only half a year to be able to achieve that degree of ability, so I think taking five or ten years is too slow.
Even now most people are trying as hard as they can to learn techniques, but I was learning about ki from the beginning.


and


While I was with Ueshiba Sensei I was also studying under Tempu Nakamura. It was he who first taught me that "the mind moves the body." Those words struck me like a bolt of electricity and opened my eyes to the whole realm of aikido. From that point on I began to rework all of my aikido techniques. I threw away techniques that went against logic and selected and reorganized those I felt were usable.
Now my aikido consists of about thirty percent Ueshiba Sensei's techniques and seventy percent my own.


As you can see, Tohei himself states that he didn't learn "ki" from Ueshiba and that he only used about 30% of Ueshiba's techniques.

MM
09-10-2008, 07:57 AM
Ueshiba: 1915-1919 and he started teaching. Was being regarded as strong. He only got better. Never any long time frames of training with Takeda.

Tomiki: 1925-1936 and he started teaching ... in Manchuria.

Shioda: 1932-1937 and then sent to China. Supposedly trained on and off for about ten years.

Etc.

Why did it take them so few years to become good? Tomiki had a background before he met Ueshiba and it did him no good. Ueshiba had a background when he met Takeda and it did him no good. If those backgrounds were so solid that they "helped" them get better, why was it that every one of them (Ueshiba meeting Takeda, Tomiki meeting Ueshiba, well, everyone meeting Takeda and everyone meeting Ueshiba) was tossed like a rag doll and treated as if they were children in the hands of a parent? Their prior training counted for nothing. Their prior training could do nothing to stop or counter anything.

So, Ueshiba, with all his prior "training" gets manhandled. But then goes on in less than ten years to become someone who manhandles. Tomiki with all his prior training gets tossed about effortlessly like a rag doll some 63 different ways but then in very little time starts tossing judoka around.

Why?

And then we get to Kisshomaru and Tohei ... Where are their students who turned the budo world upside down? Tossed men as ragdolls? Took on anyone and showed the merit of Aikido?

Who taught what?

Quoting the above to put it in context as I add to the list.

Tohei: 1940 - Noted as being only 6 months before teaching.

Aikido Journal Issue 107
An Interview with Tohei


At the same time I was continuing my training at the Ichikukai. I used to stay there overnight and practice zazen and misogi. The training focused on achieving a kind of enlightened state in which both body and mind become entirely free from restraint. It was exhausting, and afterwards I would rush to aikido practice, already dead tired. To my surprise, I found that in that state people who could always throw me before were completely unable to do so! It didn't take much effort to throw them, either.


and


I thought about Ueshiba Sensei and realized that he was indeed relaxed when he did his aikido. It was then that I suddenly understood the real meaning of "relax."
My aikido continued to progress as I continued with my misogi and zazen. After six months or so I was even sent to teach at places like the military police academy in Nakano and the private school (juku) of Shumei Okawa. No one except Sensei could throw me. It took me only half a year to be able to achieve that degree of ability, so I think taking five or ten years is too slow.
Even now most people are trying as hard as they can to learn techniques, but I was learning about ki from the beginning.

DH
09-10-2008, 08:54 AM
No one except Sensei could throw me. It took me only half a year to be able to achieve that degree of ability, so I think taking five or ten years is too slow.
I think Mark and Rob got it right
Sagawa stated he got it early, the rest was refining and experimenting to continually improve. Ark got it quickly as well. We have to couple this with Sagawa's quote that once he started to actuallly teach in his later years-(he openly admitted to holding back, and further stated Takeda told him too), that "his guys were sarting to get it" -though apparently only Kimura was putting in the work to really excell, then Sagawa died.

I join that information with recent events where hundreds have gotten out to feel Ark, Mike, Rob, me, and from what I am hearing now Howard. Does anyone have any idea how many guys with twenty, thirty, forty years-in who have felt us, then looked at us and essentially said..."We missed it. We missed getting aiki."
Yet none of us are saying it takes that long?
Let' see,
We got it, you didn't
We are stating it doesn't take that long, you are saying it does.
hmm.....
This includes Sagawa people, Kodokai, Roppokai, Aikido, several Koryu, Karate, Kali, Taiji, Bagua, etc..From what I have heard-to a man- all we have said was. "It's great stuff isn't it? Want to learn how to do it?" That aint bad.

We accept the slams, for the simple reason we know how it is to hear the message, and then see yourself completely undone by the physcal experience. We know its pretty tough to be sacrificing and cranking in the hours and travel time to Japan, working on technique #164 variation b. in your art, ten years on your way to enlightment and have some guy tell you...."that ain't it" and "that ain't gonna get you there." And then demonstrate power and sensitivity that is undeniably "it", and for some the likes of which they have never felt.

I have made peace with the realization that men need to believe in a decades long learning curve. It reinforces their choices and validates their training while explaining their low level of real understanding. Most of the guys I have met, admitted later that they "knew" there was some sort of magic, and they had been trying to work-it-out through learning more waza. Never realizing it didn't have a damn thing to do with waza in the first place.

Dan Harden wrote:
Lines go in, lines go out,
What receives-feeds
What feeds-receives
While I am in the middle of me
How I effect change and affect you is what I am doing; negative / positive. I take away or add. And either way just supports opposites while -you- have to deal with the results.
*****************************************
Phitruong writes
hot damn! I actually understood that! (couldn't do it, but understand it, ask me again in a year or two) spent a weekend picking up some very very basic stuffs from Mike. and what you have stated made perfect sense. damn! someone please smack me senseless because I shouldn't be infected by these sort of stuffs. It's going to mess up my aikido. we can't have that! can't have those aiki nonsense stuffs in my aikido.
In fect your Aikido? How about in about 5 years making it stunning to both feel and experience.

I'm not surprised that you understood it. I see it as two conversations
a) those who haven't felt it
b) those who have
Group b understands the references made by group b and can talk about it.
to group a its a different language.

MM
09-10-2008, 09:13 AM
Continuing along the lines of how certain people changed Morihei Ueshiba's aikido ...

From Aikido Journal Issue 108

Stan is talking overall about weapons and aikido.


It is, however, a historical fact that the founder prohibited the practice of the ken and jo at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo, EXCEPT for Saito Sensei's classes. A rather revealing fact, I would say! Should it then be surprising that the Hombu Dojo of today has publicly stated -- I refer to the published comments of Dojo-cho Moriteru Ueshiba and 8th dan Masatake Fujita -- that weapons training is not part of aikido?


Interesting isn't it. Aikikai Hombu states weapons training is not part of aikido -- all in the face of many years of historical proof that Ueshiba *did* work with weapons *and* trained people in weapons.

Really, some of the changes to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido are significant.

DH
09-10-2008, 09:32 AM
Continuing along the lines of how certain people changed Morihei Ueshiba's aikido ...

From Aikido Journal Issue 108

Stan is talking overall about weapons and aikido.

Interesting isn't it. Aikikai Hombu states weapons training is not part of aikido -- all in the face of many years of historical proof that Ueshiba *did* work with weapons *and* trained people in weapons.

Really, some of the changes to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido are significant.
Does it make more sense in light of the fact that many koryu people have openly stated that aikidoka do not understand weapons and shouldn't be teaching them?

It's pretty hard to sit through this -starting at .017

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aL15DEJfWZ0

Or that at the 50 anniversary of Takedas death and the subsequent Daito ryu demonstration, Kondo and his guys did a sword demo similar to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyO-jptgjx8&feature=related
and Mochizuki was disgusted and chastized him, telling him "You Daito ryu guys know nothing of sword!" and then had his own guys go to their cars and get their swords and do a demo.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-10-2008, 10:00 AM
Tomiki: 1925-1936 and he started teaching ... in Manchuria.
...
Tomiki with all his prior training gets tossed about effortlessly like a rag doll some 63 different ways but then in very little time starts tossing judoka around.

Then he spent some years as POW in a russian cam and developed some kind of "aiki-taiso" (btw, here's an old film (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8) where he demonstrates "judo taiso") but, as Prof. Goldsbury stated time ago:

3. The reference to Tomiki Sensei and competition appears on pp.184-188 of "Aikido Ichiro", by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. Doshu explains that Tomiki Sensei became a professor at Waseda University in 1954 but often came to visit the Founder in Iwama and Tokyo. Tomiki Sensei was a POW in Siberia and developed a system of aiki-taiso, probably to stay alive, and explained his system to O Sensei. In Kisshomaru Doshu's words,

"On seeing this (sc. Tomiki Sensei's system), my father said,

"If you call this sort of thing "Aiki", it will cause problems."
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10426&postcount=15

Problems? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Erick Mead
09-10-2008, 10:27 AM
Frankly Sagawa contradicts himself several times throughout the book if you want to be factual.

Sagawa said he "grasped" the secret to Aiki at 17. ... Honestly, after reading the book, I got the impression that he spent a good 20 years just looking for the correct training that would supplement the skill he got at 17 ;)Kimura's accotun says he grasped the "concept" at 17 not the secret. I wrestled with the notion of how to make a technique work even if someone resisted me using all their strength since my Teens. The difference between noticing these things for yourself and having someone tell you is enormous.

And he is a bit contradictory but only facially so, and his cirticism of seomthign on the one hand and lauding it on the other has a definite point. He heavily ciriticizes people jumping and diving on the basis of senioirty as opposed to being properly thrown. He is not therefoer being critical of the role of ukemi in sensing the nature of the aiki to be employed in nagewaza. He is very clear that while tanren are exteremly valuable in teaching the body proper movement (particularly work with the sword), that the aiki is properly taught in critically FEELING one's way through ukemi made necessary by proper technique. It is the same point Amdur made about the reversal of the nage uke roles from the koryu teaching model.

- If you swing a bokuto a lot you will realize many things. That is the important part <of swinging the bokuto.> You will become able to do many other things in your training. However that is only building of the body and no matter how much you do this, it will not allow you to be able to do Aiki by simply pursuing these kinds of exercises. <Aiki> is separate. You must FEEL as much as you can when you take my hand. I learned much by being thrown by Takeda Soukaku and gained understanding about many different things through this processs. You must be this sharp! Spirit is extremely important when fighting. And to never tense up.

- I once thought that being able to render < an opponent helpless,( implying draining them of their power)> no matter where I was touched or held on my body was everything. One day after many years of building my body through solo training, I was suddenly able to do Aiki with my body. I remember thinking at the time that always training and forging the body was extremely important. But this kind of realization is not something that can be taught. All you can do is to watch me <carefully> and absorb what you can.

His points about the nature of the "FEELING" speaks to me in my experience to some of the biomechanical aspects of the art I ahve studied and related -- furitama, tekubi furi and resonance, likely effects on reflex receptors, and the inherent structural dynamics that are keyed to those. Those are things that I have felt and do feel, and have thought about a great deal.

- Aiki is extremely difficult. Not everyone can do it. However if you <wish to achieve it> you have to train bit by bit in a manner that will allow you to achieve it. If you give up and simply go do your own thing, you will <never achieve aiki> and will cause you to stray even further <from the path>

... - Aiki is not mysterious. There is a logic to it. I immediately apply Aiki when executing my techniques and Kuzushi <my opponent.> I am allowed to do as I please because I have applied Kuzushi. I studied long and hard on what to do if I was held down strongly and unable to move. It was because of this that I was finally able to do Aiki with my Body (Tai Aiki.) You must research and study this.

Sagawa is very clear that the value of tanren in readying the body is necessary, but no substitute for a separate and critically minded building up of pieces of understanding of what is occurring in the engagement -- which at some point blossoms forth into a realization of Aiki in the body.

For what it is worth, because you are kind enough to more forthrightly relate the Aunkai tanren than some others have been with their approaches, I can see in the Aunkai tanren a number of elements of structure, movement and mechanics that I also see in different form in the kokyu undo and illustrated in waza, and therefore have some reason to see value in them. Shintaijuku for instance may be seen as a "tight" torsional form of which ude furi is a "loose" pendular form. The mechanics are directly related -- and, loosely speaking, the shintaijuku exercise substitutes moment resolving to torsional stress for moment resolving to angular velocity. But I won't belabor that further here.

MM
09-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Then he spent some years as POW in a russian cam and developed some kind of "aiki-taiso" (btw, here's an old film (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8) where he demonstrates "judo taiso") but, as Prof. Goldsbury stated time ago:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10426&postcount=15

Problems? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Tomiki created his "competition" after the war. In fact, there is an article in Aiki News about why he created it. I don't remember where, but the overall reason was because Tomiki wanted aikido to progress and things were being banned. So, to get it into the university system, he had to have competition. Hence, he created something to further aikido in universities.

Understand that Tomiki was both a Judo and an Aikido student. His views definitely show through in both areas. In other words, his "aikido" is influenced by Judo and what he did in Judo was influenced by his aikido.

As for what Ueshiba thought of Tomiki's stuff ... I'd look for quotes from the founder himself or from students around at that time to validate things. Kisshomaru was known to "change" history to further his own ideas of aikido.

ChrisMoses
09-10-2008, 11:28 AM
As you can see, Tohei himself states that he didn't learn "ki" from Ueshiba and that he only used about 30% of Ueshiba's techniques.

Yes, I've read those too. To be blunt, I think that was his ego talking and that he was severely discounting OSensei's influence in his own development. As some context, my first Aikido school was founded by one of OSensei's last uchidehsi. Obviously during that period Tohei was a huge influence in the uchideshi as he was the head instructor. After the split, the founder of my former school left to help form the Ki Society with Tohei as he felt he represented the will of OSensei better than the nidai doshu. However, after only a few years, he left that organization to found his own style in large part because he felt that Tohei's ego had gotten out of control and he was no longer honoring the contributions of OSensei in favor of claiming credit for himself. Now certainly this wasn't stated in such explicit terms, but it was clear if you knew how to listen. ;)

DH
09-10-2008, 11:56 AM
because he felt that Tohei's ego had gotten out of control and he was no longer honoring the contributions of OSensei in favor of claiming credit for himself. Now certainly this wasn't stated in such explicit terms, but it was clear if you knew how to listen. ;)

Like this
I studied a little Daito ryu too...Ueshiba Morihei
Maybe he learned more from his teacher than just how to relax after all...
I think many were listening to OSensei intently, but unfortunately few knew how to hear real well.

MM
09-10-2008, 12:10 PM
Yes, I've read those too. To be blunt, I think that was his ego talking and that he was severely discounting OSensei's influence in his own development. As some context, my first Aikido school was founded by one of OSensei's last uchidehsi. Obviously during that period Tohei was a huge influence in the uchideshi as he was the head instructor. After the split, the founder of my former school left to help form the Ki Society with Tohei as he felt he represented the will of OSensei better than the nidai doshu. However, after only a few years, he left that organization to found his own style in large part because he felt that Tohei's ego had gotten out of control and he was no longer honoring the contributions of OSensei in favor of claiming credit for himself. Now certainly this wasn't stated in such explicit terms, but it was clear if you knew how to listen. ;)

It could be his ego talking, true. But, it's kind of hard to reconcile that it's a lot of ego talking when he tells the story about his judo experience, getting trashed by others, then working on his own, and going back to be better. He talks about studying elsewhere at the same time as studying aikido. The part about that is where he says his misogi and zazen were "exhausting". I only know certain exercises that will do that to you while doing zazen. And he goes on to talk about how he never really understood Ueshiba's spiritual talk and didn't ever need to. Probably one of the few articles that didn't use circular speech to try to imply things. :)

So, I think there's some merit to what Tohei is stating. How much? I don't know. But, clearly he changed things when he formed his Ki Society organization.

As for the claims and ego. I'd imagine that was a tough time for aikido when Kisshomaru and Tohei split. I can certainly see where each would have pushed their own backgrounds and agenda to make sure that they received students. Not saying right or wrong ...

DH
09-10-2008, 12:13 PM
It was because of this that I was finally able to do Aiki with my Body (Tai Aiki.) You must research and study this.this fits in with my signature paraphrased quite as well.
If you know how to do it - it helps you understand it.

You can tie it into what Kodo said as well... that once you understand "whole body aiki' the jujutsu or waza doesn't matter, it becomes free flowing. He also discussed his opinions of aiki fitting into -all- jujutsu but that some jujutsu matched with the use of aiki better. Interesting that he differentiated as well. I wonder where I heard that before I just read it last night....hmm...
He is of course is only speaking of his personal experiences and opinions. It's presumptuous to think he knew -all- jujutsu, or had figured out how to apply it in -all- jujutsu. Maybe other modern guys found "other jujutsu" that they could worth just fine.
His point, well made I think, is getting lost in waza, 1,2,-1,467...is ridiculous as it is not the way to learn aiki. Never was.
It's pointless to debate it with waza guys on their 1,468th technique. They have no ability to "see" it and will keep collecting waza in hopes of getting the stuff.
The questions remain -is there a shorter path to learn whole body aiki?
Why did Kodo, and Sagawa, and Takeda practice solo waza-and finally admit to not teaching it and withholding it.
And what was all this preparing the body, and whole body aiki talk all about if they were so concerned with waza in the first place?

I have my answers and know which way to train. Which for some strange reason is resonating with others who did the same thing, and now with students from all walks who want it
I think Sagawa addressed the Kata kings real well in me signature line..

ChrisMoses
09-10-2008, 12:14 PM
Like this

Maybe he learned more from his teacher than just how to relax after all...


Yup, just like I mentioned on p1:

Tohei also was kind of full of himself and seriously downplayed Ueshiba's influence.

Kind of like how Ueshiba was (gonna catch it for this one) kind of full of himself and downplayed Takeda's influence.

And like how Takeda was kind of full of himself and downplayed, er, SOMEBODY's influence. I mean, he downplayed it so much no one is really sure where DR even came from! :D

:)

DH
09-10-2008, 12:22 PM
Hi Chris
On the one hand I want to say "Yup Exactly!"

On the other hand Takeda really did an amulgum of koryu-not pretended to dp them. And he at least pointed to something other than himself.
If ever....ever....a guy wanted to push an aggenda and a soke title he could have done it- in spades.

His impact on Ueshiba was defining, worthy of more than a causal reference.

As for Tohei? I dunno, that video of him with the big American was pretty awful, so what he got from Ueshiba or later from someone else might be understandable. It sure doesn't seem like Ueshiba was much interested in teaching.

I think we might be talking a litte past each other again while essentially agreeing.

MM
09-10-2008, 12:39 PM
I'm leading up to a thread with Ueshiba, aikido, and Daito ryu so, i'll get there soon. :)

Right now, I'm building the base for that thread. Tossing out bits of stuff to show things. But, I agree, Ueshiba owed Takeda a lot. I think more than most people realize.

For now, I'll just steer back to the aikido changes stuff for a bit ...

The thing with Tohei is that he states he was learning somewhere else while learning aikido. And he sort of shoots past everyone there in 6 months. Either he really understood Ueshiba (he stated he didn't), his body was a genius at doing, or he was being taught right (either by Ueshiba or someone). Since no one else at the dojo skyrocketed like Tohei and Tohei's own words that he was doing zazen that was "exhausting", it's sort of easy to say that he was learning "ki" elsewhere and not from Ueshiba.

Tomiki had a Judo influence.

Shioda, well, Shioda went back to the Daito ryu influence.

Tohei had the Ichikukai.

Kisshomaru didn't follow his father's footsteps.

Mochizuki had other influences.

Each one looks different from the other. Yet they are labeled aikido. But, really, which student is noted as being closer to Ueshiba's techniques than any of the rest? Okay, which two?

So far, as Ellis noted and it's talked about in Aiki News/Journal, Takuma Hisa tried to keep faithful to Ueshiba and Takeda. In doing so, his organization is labeled more Daito ryu than aikido. And Saito.

However, we are talking techniques and not the art itself. If we had to consider the art itself as Morihei Ueshiba envisioned it, I think we have to look elsewhere than any of his students. That's another thread... coming soon. :)

vjw
09-10-2008, 12:44 PM
I join that information with recent events where hundreds have gotten out to feel Ark, Mike, Rob, me, and from what I am hearing now Howard.

As luck would have it, I was asked by some DR guys if they could use my dojo for a seminar with Howard Hopkins. It was great to meet him and feel what he has. In my opinion, if you have not felt it you have little or no chance of doing it. I'm looking forward to seeing him again.

I think the internet and forums like this are great for Aikido and the martial arts community. I try to keep an open mind. I read what everyone has to say, decide which people I think have something that can help me with my training, then I plan how to get to meet them. It's frustrating not having them easily accessible but if I want to check them out I believe the onus is on me to go to them. I have no right to demand that they visit me. All I ask is that if I track them down and get my body in front of them, that they show me the goods and help me on the path to getting "it".

Here's hoping that we all get it someday,

Vic Williams

DH
09-10-2008, 12:47 PM
Takuma Hisa tried to keep faithful to Ueshiba and Takeda. In doing so, his organization is labeled more Daito ryu than aikido.
According to whom?
Do you think many in Daito ryu consider him more Daito ryu-like than aikiso? Or more aikido like?
In the years before Tokimune's death the heads of the Takumakai were actively pursuing a re-alignment with Tokimune's syllabus and thier own soden. Which ended when Kondo took over. So it appears at least their opinion was in keeping with a Daito ryu alignment.

ChrisMoses
09-10-2008, 01:09 PM
On the other hand Takeda really did an amulgum of koryu-not pretended to dp them. And he at least pointed to something other than himself.
If ever....ever....a guy wanted to push an aggenda and a soke title he could have done it- in spades.

I suppose I'm looking at all of the 'history' about the Aizu clan and the long (completely undocumented) tradition of Daito Ryu that can only be traced back as far as Takeda Sokaku. So I agree that it is a bit different, where Ueshiba and Tohei seem to present themselves as the origins, Takeda points backwards towards a past that we have a lot of speculation about (like the possible links with TSYR for example). Let's say for the sake of argument that he did study TSYR and that really did form the basis of what we now know as Daito Ryu, why not say that explicitly? Hopefully my comment is a bit clearer now.

His impact on Ueshiba was defining, worthy of more than a causal reference.

Certainly.

As for Tohei? I dunno, that video of him with the big American was pretty awful, so what he got from Ueshiba or later from someone else might be understandable. It sure doesn't seem like Ueshiba was much interested in teaching.

My understanding of that (through Bernie Lau) is that he was expressly told to not hurt the guy and the guy seemed bound and determined to hurt himself. Like has been mentioned before however, it looks like OK judo and not aiki. As we both know, real aiki doesn't make for good video though... ;)

I think we might be talking a litte past each other again while essentially agreeing.

Very possible, hopefully we're a bit closer now. I'm really not trying to argue with you here.

MM
09-10-2008, 01:13 PM
According to whom?
Do you think many in Daito ryu consider him more Daito ryu-like than aikiso? Or more aikido like?
In the years before Tokimune's death the heads of the Takumakai were actively pursuing a re-alignment with Tokimune's syllabus and thier own soden. Which ended when Kondo took over. So it appears at least their opinion was in keeping with a Daito ryu alignment.

Right now, I'm going by Aiki News/Journal. There were articles about Hisa and about his organization. Most everything pointed towards what you posted -- Daito ryu and trying to re-align with Tokimune.

Beyond that, no one (statistically speaking) in aikido ever points to Hisa as an "aikido" guy or the Takumakai as an "aikido" school/flavor/whatever.

I think the main reason is because Takeda distinctly took Hisa and his group as his students and then gave Hisa the menkyo kaiden.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-10-2008, 01:56 PM
Tomiki created his "competition" after the war.
Started around 1958.

As for what Ueshiba thought of Tomiki's stuff ... I'd look for quotes from the founder himself or from students around at that time to validate things.
Yes, and of course being cautious about if those quotes are about randori system or aiki taiso system. Context is everything.

rob_liberti
09-10-2008, 08:53 PM
the Hombu Dojo of today has publicly stated -- I refer to the published comments of Dojo-cho Moriteru Ueshiba and 8th dan Masatake Fujita -- that weapons training is not part of aikido


Suppai Budo!

ChrisMoses
09-11-2008, 11:38 AM
And like how Takeda was kind of full of himself and downplayed, er, SOMEBODY's influence. I mean, he downplayed it so much no one is really sure where DR even came from! :D

Chris is quoting himself (and referring to himself in the 3rd person...), uh oh, it's one of THOSE days...

This part of my quote was brought to my attention as being incorrect and I have to agree. My comment was poorly written and implies something I did not intend (that Sokaku Takeda made up Daito Ryu all by his lonesome). Daito Ryu is far too complex to have been created by one person in one lifetime, but there is evidence that what Daito Ryu was before Sokaku Takeda and what Daito Ryu is after Sokaku Takeda is (potentially at least) quite a bit different. This is far too complex a topic for this thread, but I'd encourage folks to check out this archived thread on e-budo (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-10792.html) which covers many of the complex (and mysterious!) issues that my overly short post glossed completely over. :)

DH
09-11-2008, 12:12 PM
And others still hold that he was the originator. That the art was an amalgam of -Taakeda's- koryu studies (unlike Ueshiba's myths Takeda -actually- had them, with records and stories to support them) as well as his observations and years of musa shugyo and fighting, and not a collection other extent Daito ryu knowledge within the Aizu.

The information cited in that thread is probably no longer strictly believed by several who participated in it. There has been on going research. Ellis's book will be out soon.;)

As for the complexity-I have thought and argued for years that much of the so called complexity is extraneous. 2,800 waza with variations? Please!
I think the more obvious truth behind Sokaku and others "never repeating a technique" (ala Ocham) is that the body method (as cited by Sokaku, Kodo, and Okomoto) was paramount. After learning whole body aiki, ya made stuff up on the spot! It is also the most probable response as to why all five branches are so different in their syllabus.
Daito ryu's power is its aiki. as noted by Kodo you can use it in anything. It "fits" better in some aikijujutsu waza over other jujutsu, but it works in everything. Of course he wasn't doing the modern stuff like some of us are-but had he been? Who knows? Maybe-wham! No problem.
Daito ryu's body skills-if you can find people that have it in any meaningful level- are among the best in the world. That is the worth Of Daito ryu- not hundreds if not thousands of more jujutsu waza.

Michael Douglas
09-12-2008, 06:52 AM
Then he spent some years as POW in a russian cam and developed some kind of "aiki-taiso" (btw, here's an old film (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8) where he demonstrates "judo taiso") ...
Thanks for the film Demetrio, it is really excellent demonstration of physical jujutsu techniques !
Which techniques though?... He called this 'Judo taiso' did he?
It looks to me like a rundown of mostly aikido techniques, but done rather properly.
Can someone translate the japanese characters intruducing the film and chapters please?

MM
09-12-2008, 08:48 AM
I have started a thread about Ueshiba and Daito ryu here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15100

In it, I put forth the idea that Ueshiba was still doing Daito ryu until the end of his life. The primary reason being that he was still doing Daito ryu's aiki. Due to other circumstances, he distanced himself from Takeda and stopped using the name, "Daito ryu".

I also note that all of the students and student's students of Takeda do various techniques. Even in this thread, I note that the students changed things.

So, tying all of my threads together, it isn't hard to note that the common theme of all of the greats (Takeda on down) used what people label as "aiki", specifically Daito ryu aiki since it was Takeda that made it famous.

As to the title of this thread ... Which Aikido Are You Doing? It is sort of a trick question. Because comparing the schools of Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc, then you find that all of their techniques are different. They *all* changed things in that regard.

The *core* though, always remained the same. Takeda's Daito ryu aiki.

If you look at it in that light, it doesn't really matter which school you are training in -- as long as it has the core component, aiki. Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, Okamoto, Tomiki, Shioda, Tohei, etc, etc, etc. As long as the core component of Daito ryu aiki is there, it's aikido. We can *all* do whatever flavor/school/etc we want when that core component is there. Aiki is formless until someone puts it to a form.

The real question, as I have posed in another thread, Real Techniques Not Taught To Everyone, is does your school have the core component of Daito ryu aiki. If it doesn't, why not?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15098

It's time to ask the hard questions. Time to hold our teacher's teachers accountable for their teaching, even if they are no longer alive. Time to ask why Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei all got great in 5-10 years or less. But, yet, their students never got great. Time to look to the research and see that Daito ryu aiki was *the* common theme to them all and that it *was* withheld from a lot of people, both in Japan and outside Japan. Time to start putting the core back into the arts and schools so that both Aikido *and* Daito ryu will be what Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, all envisioned and lived.

Which Aikido are you doing doesn't matter and shouldn't matter. It's just your outward physical expression of the core skill of aiki coming through. Takemusu aiki. As Ueshiba stated, "I am aiki!". We all should be.

There should be no divisiveness, no haves and have-nots, no hidden training for a select few. There should be training and those that put the effort in, will advance. In 5 years, those that put the effort in should be strong, hard to throw, and have relaxed power. Not 20 years, not a lifetime. In 10-15, they should be par with Tohei, Shioda, Tomiki. I worked with someone who was working towards 15 years (pretty sure. Close anyway) of training in this stuff (No, not Dan or Mike or Akuzawa) and in my best opinion, he would rival Tohei at the very least.

It is a singularly major experience to train with someone who has real "aiki" which brings an understanding to many of the experiences written about the greats. Becoming great no longer is seen as being out of reach. What school you train in no longer is a conflicting issue - there is room for all.

After awhile, though, I hope that the oft repeated phrase is "I am aiki" instead of "I do XYZ Aikido" or "Which Aikido do you do?"

Allen Beebe
09-12-2008, 09:14 AM
Thanks for all of the work Mark!

Allen

rob_liberti
09-12-2008, 11:58 AM
There should be no divisiveness, no haves and have-nots, no hidden training for a select few.

I'm not with you there. I have personally had to kick people out of my aikido classes. Some people should not be given any more power. The responsibility of the teacher is to:
1) Be a good enough judge of people to know who to give more power too
...and maybe...
2) provide some method to help Fix the people who are so damaged that they should not be given power - like would wrestling to the point of dealing with some deep rooted insecurities in a productive way (as opposed to bravado)

Something to think about...

Rob

MM
09-12-2008, 12:02 PM
I'm not with you there. I have personally had to kick people out of my aikido classes. Some people should not be given any more power. The responsibility of the teacher is to:
1) Be a good enough judge of people to know who to give more power too
...and maybe...
2) provide some method to help Fix the people who are so damaged that they should not be given power - like would wrestling to the point of dealing with some deep rooted insecurities in a productive way (as opposed to bravado)

Something to think about...

Rob

Hi Rob,
We agree. I don't include those kinds of situations because they are in every martial art. It is something that those teaching must deal with at various times. I was being more broad in terms of those that are in the dojo and have been approved.

Allen Beebe
09-12-2008, 02:23 PM
I think it is important to note though that Rob and Mark have the integrity to either fix a problem or openly expel the problem. This is a world apart from duplicitously saying or acting "as if" one is doing something that one is not.

I think the kind of twisted logic* that allows a sensei to "black ball" a student, or students, (either through aggression or neglect) is the same type of twisted logic that allows a sensei to deceive students en mass while only delivering the "real deal" to one or none . . . and sleep peacefully at night.

*I think there is a "logic" of sorts present here. These individuals are, in all likelihood, maintaining some sort of narrative that, in their mind at least, justifies their (non) action.

Keith Larman
09-12-2008, 02:38 PM
My understanding of that (through Bernie Lau) is that he was expressly told to not hurt the guy and the guy seemed bound and determined to hurt himself.

I'm a little late to the party, I know, but I've been told the late Rod Kobayashi was told the same thing by Tohei with respect to that event.

Just fwiw.

rob_liberti
09-12-2008, 03:55 PM
Just to make something abundantly clear - I personally withnessed someone 220-230 lbs attacking with strength (not with aiki) at someone 110 lbs in Dan's dojo, and the 110 lb person did so significantly better than what I saw Tohei sensei doing in that video. He certainly had something, but it wasn't as amazing as I once thought it was.

Rob

DH
09-12-2008, 04:10 PM
Hi Rob
Absolutely. And taking into account the caveat - that he was told not to hurt the person -is meaningless to me.
Had he the skills he could have handled him without hurting him, and done so in a -very- dlear and definitive manner. This is not a demonstration that anyone should be pointing to, or proud of.
To those that are now getting it and are out there feeling men with power and skill. Imagine beaming Tohei up and replacing him with any number of ICMA master level teachers, or even with Mike, Ark or me. What do -you-think that engagement would have looked like were we told not to harm him.
I never bought it, I sttill don't. Maybe Tohei got better later in his career.