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Buck
09-07-2008, 10:12 AM
I've realized all the good discussions on Aikido are in heaven. I just wanted to share. I came across this clip which I think is out of the norm of the countless numbers of Aikido clips on YouTube, and it is not the typical Aikido demo because of the lack of traditional garb and speed. We all know that Hakama and gi hides and obscures movement in what your watching. And the street clothes provide a sense out-of-the-dojo and in every daily life experience.

I think it is a good clip and provides a different way at looking at Aikido effectiveness, that has been discussed lately, against common street attacks where the attacker is unaware of the Aikido trained target. The attacks seen in the clip represent 99.9% of what will be experience in the street in most places in the world. The clip doesn't show all the common attacks someone might experience, but they are the major ones -the clip gets you the idea.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7yn0XOSMQ&feature=related

Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2008, 11:00 AM
against common street attacks where the attacker is unaware of the Aikido trained target

sorry to be negative Phil, but the attacks were very obviously pre-arranged by the two participants. My guess is they also probably did several takes as well until they got them looking the way they wanted.

Just because it is outside and the speed and dynamic movement (power) has increased over what we normally do in the dojo, does not make it any more realistic.

We perceive that, but it is not what I have/do experience in reality.

Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2008, 11:23 AM
Phil,

Wanted to provide you an example instead of simply being negative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dknjl1JlJaY&feature=related&resnum=3

When you start talking spontaneous and reality, there really is no good way to train it 100% "unknown"

However, this example, which is also scenario based, like the ones in your video is a little more non-compliant and the exact time, distance, line of attack, and the actually attack are unknown.

The High Gear suits also allow for more reality in the attacks, allowing the attacker to pretty much attack without fear of really doing any real damage to the uke.

What happens most of the time in reality is that attackers close distance in a variety of ways, from verbal (socially), to attempting to off balance with mass and multiple attacks or feints in an attempt to disrupt and overwhelm.

The key to it is it is not one linear attack as we typically practice in Aikido, and that is what is shown in your example albeit it is outdoors, in street clothing, with more power and speed.

I think it is key to remember that aikido was designed by the founder not as a system primarily geared towards fighting but refinement of self...you know the party line.

As such, isolated out are many factors that would serve as distractors from the goals of aikido.

It is why many will contend that it is not a "full spectrum" system.

Aikido is the equivilant in the Military as Marksmanship training on the range. It is where you learn the most important parts of using the weapon, posture, balance, breath control, site picture. The basics upon which you base things on. However it is not "combat shooting".

On the range adding speed, noise, targets popping up and down...all start increasing the pressure...yet you are still on the range, with many known factors.

This is what I see in the video you posted.

For a military situation, we would put our soldiers with weapons in scenarios where they have to work with team mates, interact in a more unknown, spontaneous situation to more approximate reality.

I hope this makes sense.

You have to be careful drawing the conclusion that what you see in that video is "more real". Yes, to a degree it is, but still very controlled. If those guys did not put actual "aliveness" into there scenarios, then chance are, the would get into "overload" very quickly once spontaneity and pressure (aliveness) was factored in.

Hope this helps.

DH
09-07-2008, 12:12 PM
Phil
You might note that the lack of "taking ukemi" changes the dynamic in the receiving body; both its structural integrity and how it reacts spacially to the guy trying his schtick on you. Normal people do not act like the trained preconditioned jumpers in the martial arts. And trained fighter?? They're a different planet all together.
If someone opts for video example #1 (yours) as good Aikido, well...have fun
If they mistakenly call it good martial arts? Well...I just feel sorry for them. They are either being deceived or are deceiving themselves. Again though. Its the internet, everyone thinks their opinions are equal, because of their own particular experiences. It may look that way, but it only looks that way.

Michael Douglas
09-07-2008, 02:26 PM
Great video find Philip, I like it.
It is much much better than most of the aikido adverts out there.

(but ... maybe it could be retitled to : "What to do when camp bloke tries slowly to hit you with a fish outside the gay bar".?)
:straightf Joke, don't hit me.

I think it is a good clip and provides a different way at looking at Aikido effectiveness, that has been discussed lately, against common street attacks where the attacker is unaware of the Aikido trained target. The attacks seen in the clip represent 99.9% of what will be experience in the street in most places in the world.
I don't think so.
I mean, not once does it show someone trying to punch the other in the face really really hard, then punch him with the other hand, then punch him some more.
I'm sure someone might think the video shows that, but in my opinion it never does.

Buck
09-07-2008, 05:15 PM
I mean, not once does it show someone trying to punch the other in the face really really hard, then punch him with the other hand, then punch him some more.
I'm sure someone might think the video shows that, but in my opinion it never does.

You can't show every possible street (crime) attack, but what you can do is highlight and then make the adjustments. The choice to use weapons in the demo is a step up from empty hand. You can deal with both attacks similarly. Street punks etc. often use weapons to intimidate and for control of the victim. If you remove the weapon from the attacker's hand and instead see it as a closed fist you would have a bar fight situation- in the honest bars.

What I was getting at is the clip really shows Aikido outside the traditionally framed expose demo- nothing wrong with that. Such demos can be misleading to the general viewing public about the street effectiveness of Aikido. Because the setting of many such demos are traditionally framed traditionally with all the Japanese trimmings. The clip being done in regular clothes and on the street (outside where people can see themselves being there) the viewing public can see themselves in those situations in the clip, they can relate to it. They say to themselves, ya, I can see how that works, I can see myself doing it. Rather then looking at a showcasing of cultural demo of a martial art steeped in martial arts tradition, and not relating personally to Aikido by making similarities in their daily lives.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-07-2008, 05:31 PM
The clip done in regular clothes and on the street (outside where people can see themselves being there) the viewing public can see themselves in those situations in the clip, they can relate to it.

But does not make it real not realistic.

The regular clothes and street like location for the clip may be gives you a sense or reality in what is shown. However it is still a staged demo, nothing more. There is no show of fighting skills in the clip, it shows choreographic skills.

Maybe these guys can fight, but the video you linked does not prove anything about their fighting or self defense skills.

Aikibu
09-07-2008, 05:42 PM
I agree for the most part what has been posted about the video Phil but for different reasons. The style of Aikido in the Demo is the typical "start soft finish hard" form.No Irimi No real Atemi No attempt by Uke to use combination/counter attacks.

I have got to buy me a few of those suits Kevin!!!

William Hazen

Buck
09-07-2008, 05:44 PM
sorry to be negative Phil, but the attacks were very obviously pre-arranged by the two participants. My guess is they also probably did several takes as well until they got them looking the way they wanted.

Just because it is outside and the speed and dynamic movement (power) has increased over what we normally do in the dojo, does not make it any more realistic.

We perceive that, but it is not what I have/do experience in reality.

Of course Kevin, (and those joining us) what demo or clip isn't of any art. But that doesn't make the techniques ineffective or unrealistic.

Kevin, we talking about civilian life, everyday daily life of the common man or woman viewing this. millions of people around the world do Aikido based on the traditional demo, so I am aware of that too. I like that the clip demo'd with all the trimmings of Aikido and went with common dress and location.

I have said this before that it is a shame someone wasn't able to film an Aikidoka in a hot situation where they are attacked on the street. I am sure there might be a clip out there some where. But the reason I think there isn't a clip (assuming there isn't one of one on the street) is due largely to Aikido's philosophy. Aikidoka on a whole don't go out looking for a fight or place themselves in a situation of street violence. Yes, am aware of the Aikido dojo- stormers, and how they defeated many, but I am talking in terms of O'Sensei's vision for Aikido and not what an individual who chooses to do what they want with Aikido on their own, i.e. use Aikido in a competition fight. I am talking about capturing digitally an Aikidoka handling a street punk I think is rare. I would like to see clips of Aikidokas in a hot situation.

Buck
09-07-2008, 06:03 PM
Phil
You might note that the lack of "taking ukemi" changes the dynamic in the receiving body; both its structural integrity and how it reacts spacially to the guy trying his schtick on you. Normal people do not act like the trained preconditioned jumpers in the martial arts. And trained fighter?? They're a different planet all together.
If someone opts for video example #1 (yours) as good Aikido, well...have fun
If they mistakenly call it good martial arts? Well...I just feel sorry for them. They are either being deceived or are deceiving themselves. Again though. Its the internet, everyone thinks their opinions are equal, because of their own particular experiences. It may look that way, but it only looks that way.

Dan, I see where you are going. But please keep in mind the clip's value is in what I have posted before this. The clip is a model. The arguments you and others have laid out concerning objectivity, perspective, etc. is what philosophers and psychologist have being discussing for thousands of years, and is required fundamental study in the universities. The reason for the clip what to show the closest emulation of Aikido applied in a hot street situation vs. in a traditional setting.

I appreciate you philosophical argument, though one thing I learned as a learned person is to stay out of philosophical agreements because at a point I wonder if the argument is for real, and are we thinking we are going foward, but we are really standing still never really going forward, etc. :)

Demetrio Cereijo
09-07-2008, 06:09 PM
I would like to see clips of Aikidokas in a hot situation.
Why?

Buck
09-07-2008, 06:15 PM
Phil,

What happens most of the time in reality is that attackers close distance in a variety of ways, from verbal (socially), to attempting to off balance with mass and multiple attacks or feints in an attempt to disrupt and overwhelm.

I think it is key to remember that aikido was designed by the founder not as a system primarily geared towards fighting but refinement of self...you know the party line.



Your first comment above, that is only one type of attack scenario commonly found in bar fights between males of high testoserone level and hearty doses of liquor in the gut. Typical stag liquor drinking male behavior.

You in your reality you didn't include attacks on women, situations such as muggings, etc. The clip is limited as well but I would say it does include other situations applicable. The clip isn't perfect.

yep that is the party line and if some people would figure that out, there would be less type of certain arguments and threads being started. :)

Buck
09-07-2008, 06:18 PM
Why?

So....we....wouldn't have to use clips that model an actual attack to show the effectiveness of Aikido. etc. But because of O'Sensei's Aikido's play book I think it is rare so we will just have to use what we got (the clip as a model) to show how Aikido works in a hot situation, (or argue about the effectiveness like a Bulimirexic) to the general public in a way they can best relate. :)

Demetrio Cereijo
09-07-2008, 06:32 PM
So....we....wouldn't have to use clips that model an actual attack to show the effectiveness of Aikido. etc. But because of O'Sensei's Aikido's play book I think it is rare so we will just have to use what we got (the clip as a model) to show how Aikido works in a hot situation, (or argue about the effectiveness until we throw-up) to the general public in a way they can best relate. :)

You've never been in a "hot" situation, you do not know what is a "hot" situation, you do not want to know what is a "hot" situation but you want see videos of people fighting for their lifes because you want to "show the efectiveness of aikido"...

Man, you are in need of professional help.

rob_liberti
09-07-2008, 06:39 PM
I've really used what I learned in aikido against someone really trying to take me down and not fall for me. I do think it works. I don't think it works like that video. That video does not represent 99% of all attacks for damn sure.

Lastly, I believe that what I knew wouldn't stand up to someone with a well trained body - and further that when my body is a well trained body - 99% of real attacks won't stand up to me.

I have to say I like the video though. It's the best of its kind I've ever seen.

Rob

Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2008, 07:58 PM
Phil wrote:

Kevin, we talking about civilian life,

I understand. There are some differences on why you are engaging and the situations. However fighting is fighting. The clips you provided were assuming attackers with an intent to severely hurt or kill. How does that differ from a civilian to military status. Knives and bodies work the same and all bleed the same.

I have said this before that it is a shame someone wasn't able to film an Aikidoka in a hot situation where they are attacked on the street. I am sure there might be a clip out there some where. But the reason I think there isn't a clip (assuming there isn't one of one on the street) is due largely to Aikido's philosophy

Probably. As an afinity group, Aikidoka are not generally involved in to many fights.

There are a few of us out there that have done aikido for a few years and use it in our jobs/situations.

I think the issue is this:

You view aikido as a "fighting style" the methodology and conditions you train in are assumed by you to some how be visibily distinctive and different than other "styles"

Bad logic, ask me how I found out.

From my perspective and guys like Kit Leblanc, Dave Valadez, Dan Harden and other...

We view aikido as a principle based methodology designed to instill certain habits and principles...it provides a framework and structure.

In a fight though...all skilled fighters start looking the same. You close distance, you clinch, you form frames, you irimi strike, kick, and do all that good stuff. It is hard to tell and aikidoka from a guy that has an afinity for Krav Maga.

Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2008, 08:10 PM
Phil wrote:

You in your reality you didn't include attacks on women, situations such as muggings, etc. The clip is limited as well but I would say it does include other situations applicable. The clip isn't perfect.

I actually chose the video I chose on purpose. I avoided any examples of ground fighting to avoid the grappling argument.

If I were dealing with attacks on women, muggings...you know true civilian "ambush" attacks I would have provided a tape on ground figthing since this is where typically go in those situations if you are still conscious. Your attacker wants you incapacitated, on the ground, with him on top executing his will.

But, that opens the whole Ground fighting issue.

Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2008, 08:15 PM
Phil wrote:

So....we....wouldn't have to use clips that model an actual attack to show the effectiveness of Aikido. etc. But because of O'Sensei's Aikido's play book I think it is rare so we will just have to use what we got (the clip as a model) to show how Aikido works in a hot situation, (or argue about the effectiveness like a Bulimirexic) to the general public in a way they can best relate.


All I can tell you is that if you asked Saotome Sensei about his "playbook" he'd probably get quite upset. Rob L I am sure can back this up as well.

Everytime I have ever been to a class or seminar he always preaches that we are not doing aikido we are trying to do technique. To him, a senior uschideshi, it is not about the "moves" or "playbook" but about the principles.

mathewjgano
09-07-2008, 10:04 PM
I think it is a good clip and provides a different way at looking at Aikido effectiveness, that has been discussed lately, against common street attacks where the attacker is unaware of the Aikido trained target. The attacks seen in the clip represent 99.9% of what will be experience in the street in most places in the world. The clip doesn't show all the common attacks someone might experience, but they are the major ones -the clip gets you the idea.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7yn0XOSMQ&feature=related

Hi Philip,
I really liked that video as a demonstration. It's one of the better demo's I've seen online...for the use of speed and ukemi somewhere other than a mat. It also showed some variety so all in all a good video in my view. I particularly liked the use of atemi in some of the movements.
As for your thread's question, I think the point Dan made about taking ukemi is the main reason it might not be described as an example of something "effective" or "realistic." My very limited experience is that many people will simply fall down or do "bad" movements which change the nature of nage's movement. In other words it's stylized because all the people in the video probably practice the same stuff together. Then again video representations always fall short. Even Kevin's video, where they're supposed to be able to go all out (more or less), it seemed to me the attacker stopped attacking. That doesn't mean it's not effective per se, just that I as a casual observer was able to see a moment where the attacker might simply have been processing what to do next (or even allowing nage to find his way in) instead of following through with another attack...and that happens often enough in Real Life.

mathewjgano
09-07-2008, 10:11 PM
You've never been in a "hot" situation, you do not know what is a "hot" situation, you do not want to know what is a "hot" situation but you want see videos of people fighting for their lifes because you want to "show the efectiveness of aikido"...

Man, you are in need of professional help.

I doubt you're characterizing this correctly, though I could be wrong. I'm betting Philip simply means he wishes he had access to raw footage involving Aikidoka so we could actualy see what it looks like in a "hot" situation. If I'm right, there's a huge difference between his intent and wishing people were at risk for the sake of proof.

Buck
09-07-2008, 10:38 PM
I doubt you're characterizing this correctly, though I could be wrong. I'm betting Philip simply means he wishes he had access to raw footage involving Aikidoka so we could actualy see what it looks like in a "hot" situation. If I'm right, there's a huge difference between his intent and wishing people were at risk for the sake of proof.

Thank you Matthew, that is correct, that is what I meant and mean.

Don
09-07-2008, 10:56 PM
It's a nice clip as far as it goes. I think Kevin's posts make good points about the differences in demos, sans hakama and dogi or not.

I've sometimes thought that in any attack there might be a chance at pulling off an inital technique more or less simply because the attacker doesn't know its coming. Notice I said chance. In addition to having the element of suprise, one would have to have requiste timing and speed and application of all those movement principles we learn in aikido. Miss any of those and you have to know how to deal with resistance. My limited experience says that unless we were to actively train in reality based scenarios that even with many years of aikido training it is likely that in a "real" situation, our ability to apply those principles can be compromised unless we can control our own impulses to engage (testostrone, ego, fight or flight reaction etc....). In my limited experience it is a very difficult thing to control and is a training aspect not normally dealt with in aikido training. We'd all like to think we'd act like 007 with those instinctive reactions but I don't think so, because most people do not train that way. At some point you realize the limitations of most aikido training. And its like George Leydard said....the chances of a street attack happening to 99% of all aikidoka is about 0.000001%. So, if you enjoy aikido, keep doing it. If not, stop. and if you want to slant your aikido training to something approximating marital aikido, well, you can do that in many ways......(insert the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many.........many threads on this here).

Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2008, 11:01 PM
The guys in my dojo keep telling me I need to go to George Ledyard's seminar when he comes to Baltimore. He apparently does quite a bit with weapons (shinai) dealing with the speed, power, and spontanaity.

I am hoping I can make it next year.

Buck
09-07-2008, 11:05 PM
So....we....wouldn't have to use clips that model an actual attack to show the effectiveness of Aikido. etc. But because of O'Sensei's Aikido's play book I think it is rare so we will just have to use what we got (the clip as a model) to show how Aikido works in a hot situation, (or argue about the effectiveness like a Bulimirexic) to the general public in a way they can best relate. :)

Kevin, I guess it wasn't clear to you, so it may not be to others, the phrase"Play book" was used as colorful language for what O'Sensei's intention was for the use of Aikido in self-defense situations. Which is the rational behind the reasoning for why we are discussing a choreographed clip as a model instead of non-choreographed self-defense situation clip.

Matt I agree and see Dan's point, but honestly that is getting down to the micro level of pointing out faults of things which brings up more counter "what ifs" and variables. And that is the snag with clips like this vs. a hot situation clip: say a security camera caught an Aikidoka being mugged in a parking lot and the attack is foiled by the Aikidoka- that type of "hot" situation. That type of clip would redefine the discussion on Aikido effectiveness and answer Kevin and Dan's concerns and others expressed in this clip.

------------------

Even though the clip with all its faults and short commings it does model effective Aikido techniques. But, a plus to the clip is the speed at which the techniques are done it. The clip generally shows what we all us Aikidoka know. I think it is good for that purpose. If Aikido was about people pointing a finger the direction of the attacker and the attacker who went flying 10 feet away in mid air as a result, then I would say Aikido isn't effective.

DH
09-08-2008, 12:38 AM
I agree and see Dan's point, but honestly that is getting down to the micro level of pointing out faults of things which brings up more counter "what ifs" and variables.

No it isn't. It's a discussion of a gross level of movement. Such as where, the attacker stops attacking in order to set up his body to take the throw. Over, and over and over.
I can only suggest due to the level of commentary being offered that you find men of video #2 and you go and try what you are advocating in video #1 and then come and show it
There are some lessons you need to learn, not the least of which is what a continouos postional flow with strikes and kicks, feints and set-ups actually feels like from someone who knows what they're doing. Someone who is going to be disctinctly unresponsive to much of anything of the level that guy was doing -all while giving him him a couple of fistfulls for his trouble.
You're in for a very short and profound lesson on many levels of what live training really means-that ain't it.

And that is the snag with clips like this vs. a hot situation clip: say a security camera caught an Aikidoka being mugged in a parking lot and the attack is foiled by the Aikidoka- that type of "hot" situation. That type of clip would redefine the discussion on Aikido effectiveness and answer Kevin and Dan's concerns and others expressed in this clip.
Actually you don't need a "hot" situation. There are a whole bunch of men who would be happy to give you as much "hot" as you could ever possibly handle, without you getting hurt much and they would even make sure you and they enjoyed yourselves while doing so, made notes and went and haad some beer after. Think of it like a free education without the hospital time needed to prove the point. It happens all the time in gyms all over the world.

The "re-defining aikido" you are looking for has been going on for many years and discussed to death by men who are exteremely well versed Phil-extremely.
Again, all due respect you seem to think your understanding is equal to men here who have been training for decades, and who have some interesting experiences they could share.
I would suggest, what you are discussing is such old news that I am surprised anyone is being polite enough to try and fill you in.
Try doing a search for the threads where these types of videos have been debunked by hundreds of posters with experience an understanding you might find beneficial

Even though the clip with all its faults and short commings it does model effective Aikido techniques.
I think most of the waza shown is more in line with some low level jujutsu waza, and it shows the static positions of a choreographed response well in keeping with the fixed and staid straight line and one step attacks offered.

But, a plus to the clip is the speed at which the techniques are done it.
So are these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK1q0mYOQVw&feature=related
It's called choreography. We're all just waiting for you to get what that really means


The clip generally shows what we all us Aikidoka know. I think it is good for that purpose. If Aikido was about people pointing a finger the direction of the attacker and the attacker who went flying 10 feet away in mid air as a result, then I would say Aikido isn't effective.

Actually I would be very careful just who you think that "we all" encompasses. You have active duty military, bjjers, mmaers some ex bad guys, bouncers, active duty LEO and many other men who have been in the S#$# real time.
For some reason, I'm thinking it's a pretty sure bet that Kevin's, Roy's, Don's and many others "aikido" would you see your #1 video's subject's waza undone so fast you would....uhm....er...want to put it on a video.

Of a secondary discussion about the power in the point of a finger, you might want to ask around about some men with real power. It isn't as fruity a discussion as you might believe, and leave you yet again with a very rude awakening.
I can only say once again that it looks as if all posters opinions of the various subjects here are all equal, Phil, but it only looks that way.

Kevin Leavitt
09-08-2008, 02:37 AM
Phil Wrote:

"Play book" was used as colorful language for what O'Sensei's intention was for the use of Aikido in self-defense situations.

What is your understanding of his use of aikido in a self defense situation?

IMO, it is much, much more esoteric and complex than is shown in any video of physicality.

I love the study of ma'ai. It is a very, very complex subject and one that I can personally discuss for hours (but it bores most people).

I personally think that he cared much more about the "be here...now" aspects of ma'ai and the realationship and awareness that occurs at that point than anything else.

This is a big reason we study sword, jo, and ikkyo...imo, not so much that people go around wacking one another, but because those things help us learn the concept and importance of ma'ai.

Ask any cop that makes a traffic stop. Any soldier that engages people on an interpersonal basis and they can discuss or relate to the importance of understanding ma'ai.

I think much of the importance of aikido is about this one concept...it starts and ends there. I think this is a big part of the lesson that O'sensei wanted to get across.

At least that is what I really get from studying aikido...it ain't about the physicality of fighitng.

Stefan Hultberg
09-08-2008, 04:06 AM
Hi everyone

There is much discussion of effectiveness and use "on the street". Many contributions seem to question aikido as realistic self defense. As far as I am concerned aikido is the lamborghini of martial arts, not easy to master, but what a rush when you've figured it out and all 12 cylinders are working in unison to propel you forwards at speeds you never imagined. True, other cars are easier to master and there we can find the workhorses - porsche/karate, audi/jutsu etc.

Now - if people are looking for easy and clear roads towards self defense I would not suggest aikido. In fact I would not suggest a martial art at all - try pistol-shooting or running - the most effective self defense systems. If you must look for effective self defense in the martial arts then by all means try karate, boxing, krav maga etc. At least in these martial arts there is a very clear belief that they represent effective self defense arts which means you can avoid endless discussions of what works on the street.

All this talk about street effectiveness seems to indicate much fear. In that case I would recommend aikido, however. Courage does not come from being able to defend oneself on the street but from the realization that you don't have to. All physical conflicts lead to damage - to yourself or your opponent. Avoid physical conflict!! In terms of self defense I would suggest three main techniques:

1. smile - you'd be surprised how many conflicts that can be avoided by not rising to the challenge

2. run - if conflict is unavoidable one should learn from rabbits, man they can run

3. if nothing else works do a qui-gon, you know the scene where he is fighting darth maul and sits down to meditate while waiting for a door to open. When you are threatened with violence, the smile doesn't work and you can't run - go down in seiza and start meditating - very few thugs would actually strike someone who sits quietly in meditation.

And now, my final point. If nothing works - allow yourself to be beaten up. You'd set an example that would last a thousand years!!

Best regards

Stefan

Stefan Stenudd
09-08-2008, 04:58 AM
At least in these martial arts there is a very clear belief that they represent effective self defense arts which means you can avoid endless discussions of what works on the street.
Love it :D

mjchip
09-08-2008, 06:11 AM
In fact I would not suggest a martial art at all - try pistol-shooting or running -

A common misconception and poor advice you gave above. "pistol-shooting" is a martial art that also needs to be continually trained. Just sticking a gun in someone's hands and asking them to defend themselves under pressure leaves them unprepared kind of like taking some random person, having them read a book on MMA, and then having them walk into a ring.

Avoid physical conflict!! In terms of self defense I would suggest three main techniques:

1. smile - you'd be surprised how many conflicts that can be avoided by not rising to the challenge

2. run - if conflict is unavoidable one should learn from rabbits, man they can run



Now, the above two recommendations are great advice!


3. if nothing else works do a qui-gon, you know the scene where he is fighting darth maul and sits down to meditate while waiting for a door to open. When you are threatened with violence, the smile doesn't work and you can't run - go down in seiza and start meditating - very few thugs would actually strike someone who sits quietly in meditation.

And now, my final point. If nothing works - allow yourself to be beaten up. You'd set an example that would last a thousand years!!


Now why did you have to go follow up two pieces of great advice with two awful ones?

Regards,

Mark

Demetrio Cereijo
09-08-2008, 06:53 AM
I doubt you're characterizing this correctly, though I could be wrong. I'm betting Philip simply means he wishes he had access to raw footage involving Aikidoka so we could actualy see what it looks like in a "hot" situation. If I'm right, there's a huge difference between his intent and wishing people were at risk for the sake of proof.

Probably, so I stand corrected.

Can I also ask for a real rape video to see if the anti-rape sd courses really work?

Keith Larman
09-08-2008, 09:29 AM
Now why did you have to go follow up two pieces of great advice with two awful ones?

Regards,

Mark

I think the point was an interspersal of humor with advice.

Or as one of my retired police officer friends like to say, train first in "GUNorRUN-Fu" if your primary concern is self defense. No doubt pistol shooting requires extensive training as well. But if the issue is the "ultimate" self-defense for the street, well, gun-fu wins hands down. Unless of course you're talking about "sawed-off-shotgun ryu". Then of course there is bazooka-jutsu. Hmmm, I also forgot about thermonuclear_device-do...

In all seriousness, for self-defense pepper spray (with some training of course) can be quite effective. And arts like Krav Maga tend to be very focused on precisely the scenarios you run in on the street. Or join the military and try out some of the combatives courses... ;)

Aikido for me was about expanding a toolbox. I've done other stuff and enjoy the difficulty of Aikido on top of what I'd done before. Sure, I think some Aikido folk couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack. Notice I said some, not all. And I've met no shortage of weekend warriors who train intensely on heavy bags in mean, nasty styles who would probably soil their shorts in an actual confrontation. Complex issue to say the least.

But I liked his post. I enjoyed the humor too. For myself I think Aikido has given me an enjoyable puzzle to work on. But then again I started aikido knowing how to give a quick strike to the kidney or a snap kick to dislocate a knee. Handy stuff for when the blend doesn't work quite right... ;)

gdandscompserv
09-08-2008, 10:06 AM
In all seriousness, for self-defense pepper spray (with some training of course) can be quite effective.
Yes. Be careful not to spray into the wind.:eek:

Keith Larman
09-08-2008, 12:29 PM
Yes. Be careful not to spray into the wind.:eek:

And I remember years ago watching a young woman with her first cannister of pepper spray shoot a little up in the air to see what it would be like if she let "just a little" get on her eyes and in her nose... I had suggested that she really didn't need to do that right as she did it... I backed away. She didn't. :crazy:

Demetrio Cereijo
09-08-2008, 12:53 PM
In all seriousness, for self-defense pepper spray (with some training of course) can be quite effective.

I've been at the wrong side of a pepper spray (don't worry, I was with the "good guys"). I'd suggest adding some physical skills as back up . Things do not always work like in the commercials.

DonMagee
09-08-2008, 02:23 PM
I've been at the wrong side of a pepper spray (don't worry, I was with the "good guys"). I'd suggest adding some physical skills as back up . Things do not always work like in the commercials.

I personally know a guy who rushed a cop while being tased and maced. It didn't slow him down all that much. In fact what put a stop to him was the 3 other cops hitting tackling him and using a nightstick as leverage against the back of his skull.

gdandscompserv
09-08-2008, 02:51 PM
I've been at the wrong side of a pepper spray (don't worry, I was with the "good guys"). I'd suggest adding some physical skills as back up . Things do not always work like in the commercials.
Do you have any recomendations as far as 'physical skills' that work against pit bulls?

mathewjgano
09-08-2008, 03:20 PM
Probably, so I stand corrected.

Can I also ask for a real rape video to see if the anti-rape sd courses really work?

That's a bit of a hyperbole. I don't think your average fist-fight equates to this and I think that's what is being described here. I'm usually the first person to tell people how utterly stupid I think fighting is. It's glorified everywhere and has probably been since the first person took power by force, but I get it, fighting and encouraging people to fight is bad...I'd say it with greater force except this is a public forum so my normal language wouldn't be appropriate. Suffice it to say I hate violence...you have no idea how much. I chose Aikido in large part for this very reason.
That said, yes if there is video of someone getting attacked and defending him/herself with having only Aikido as his/her training, I would want to watch it. Not so much (Not at all, just so we're perfectly clear) with the rape scenario, thanks.

DonMagee
09-08-2008, 03:28 PM
Do you have any recomendations as far as 'physical skills' that work against pit bulls?

I've had good success with a bull fighting approach. They charge, you step in and turn and kick them in the ribs/head. Repeat until they are no threat.

Ron Tisdale
09-08-2008, 03:34 PM
Dude, you tried that against a pit bull? :eek:

You are even braver than I thought!

I can't imagine that method working against a well trained attack dog...maybe pits aren't as bright as I thought...hmmmm...

:D Ron

mathewjgano
09-08-2008, 03:40 PM
1. smile - you'd be surprised how many conflicts that can be avoided by not rising to the challenge

The smile has been my most effective weapon. That and a demonstrative genuine concern for others. I was in a situation where I'm quite sure I was being sized up for a mugging with a homeless guy I "befriended" at SFO airport (I spent 3 nights there one time, who needs a hotel:crazy: ). It's a bit more complex than just smiling, but that was very much at the heart of it. This is where the ai of love starts to take meaning for me. Demonstrating power only reinforces the might makes right mentality and that's the deeper issue behind violence. If you can stop a conflict with something along the lines of a smile, it implies something far more profound and sophisticated/evolved (in my opinion, anyway).

gdandscompserv
09-08-2008, 03:57 PM
I've had good success with a bull fighting approach. They charge, you step in and turn and kick them in the ribs/head. Repeat until they are no threat.
:eek:
I can just see myself dodging traffic while dodging and kicking a pit bull. No thanks. I think I'll stick to chemical warfare.
PS. Good luck with a "kick" to the head. I have a friend who is a cop. He said it took three bullets to the head of a pit bull to put him down.

DonMagee
09-08-2008, 04:32 PM
Dude, you tried that against a pit bull? :eek:

You are even braver than I thought!

I can't imagine that method working against a well trained attack dog...maybe pits aren't as bright as I thought...hmmmm...

:D Ron

No idea if it was a trained attack dog or even a full breed. I was walking home from school in the 11th grade, a dog that used to growl and bark at me from behind a wooden fence finally broke free. He came rushing at me, I threw my books at him. He backed away and rushed again. Instinct took over and I stepped right past him (like a bull fighter) as he turned to re-engage I kicked him in the ribs. He yelped, backed up, came again, this time I was not so lucky. I lost a better part of my jeans and a bite that required a visit to the ER. I was able to get him to stop biting me by Stomping on his skull with my other foot. At that point fueled by anger I rushed and proceed to put my foot right down the pipe. At this point the dog decided it was time to flee and ran off. I limped to a friends, they called police and one of my parents who took me to the ER.

I remember this vividly because I almost had to get rabies shots. Lucky for me they found the dog. I believe a lot of my ability to win came from my Doc Martins.

That was just one of 3 dog fights I've been in. However, the last two were not severe. One with a poodle dog (who was scared of his shadow) and another with a golden lab who thought I was hurting his master during a friendly football game (Saved by the master).

DonMagee
09-08-2008, 04:33 PM
:eek:
I can just see myself dodging traffic while dodging and kicking a pit bull. No thanks. I think I'll stick to chemical warfare.
PS. Good luck with a "kick" to the head. I have a friend who is a cop. He said it took three bullets to the head of a pit bull to put him down.

I'd wager he missed and hit neck/jaw/body the first two times. Bullet + brain = dead. A single bullet would kill a grizzly if you could penetrate his skull.

Ron Tisdale
09-08-2008, 04:39 PM
Hey Don, glad you missed those rabies shots...I hear they're a killer! Worse than the darn dog bite!

Double :eek:

By the bye...I doubt then from the description the dog was trained. There is an excellent post on rec-martial.arts from some years ago that describes the pattern for trained attack dogs. And your best chance of surviving them. I'll look it up and post sometime in another thread, if anyone is really interested.

R

jennifer paige smith
09-08-2008, 05:26 PM
Not so much (Not at all, just so we're perfectly clear) with the rape scenario, thanks.

Yes, thank you. I concur.

That would bring this discussion that is laced with a touch of violence into the realm of pornographically violent and would be completely unwelcome, as far as I'm concerned.

jennifer paige smith
09-08-2008, 05:31 PM
The smile has been my most effective weapon. That and a demonstrative genuine concern for others. I was in a situation where I'm quite sure I was being sized up for a mugging with a homeless guy I "befriended" at SFO airport (I spent 3 nights there one time, who needs a hotel:crazy: ). It's a bit more complex than just smiling, but that was very much at the heart of it. This is where the ai of love starts to take meaning for me. Demonstrating power only reinforces the might makes right mentality and that's the deeper issue behind violence. If you can stop a conflict with something along the lines of a smile, it implies something far more profound and sophisticated/evolved (in my opinion, anyway).

Hi Matt,
It implies the 'musubi of ai' and has also been very effective for me.

Kevin Leavitt
09-08-2008, 05:33 PM
Phil,

Buddy of mine just sent me the link I'd forgotten about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYX1vthSrnI

This was a GI submission fight I did as a blue belt about 4 years ago. At the time I had about 10 years of TMA and about 8 solid years of aikido practice, and about 1 year in BJJ under my belt (self trained BJJ). So keep this in mind, as my BJJ sucks big time in this video.

I weighed about 225 at the time (not the 265 that Pablo posted!), but I did outweigh him by quite a bit! Pablo is a Purple Belt and a wonderfully skilled, athletic player.

Anyway....

Pay attention to several key things in the video. Look past the fact that it is a tournament and I dive into the guy several times and he stays on the ground, it is a strategy that works well for Pablo.

Here is what is important form a fighting or aikido standpoint.

Watch at at the beginning of the tape. Posture, I stay upright and relaxed, I am not playing the grappling game with him like alot of guys do. Watch his other tapes and you will see that he pulls guard easily when guys bend over.

I deflect his attempts to grip several times remaining relaxed and then move in to the clinch. I do good until I eventually bend over, break my posture then he begins to drag me into the guard. (:25)

We then roll around in the guard. Me with terrible posture trying to gain control of the situation. At about 1:00 I start to settle down in the guard and work on his arms. At exactly 1:20 you see I gain control of his left arm across his body and begin to work on Sankyo. The sankyo creates "some space" and I get away a little. He shrimps back into the guard. (1:33).

I continue to work on the sankyo from around 1:33 - 1:45 when he finally breaks free from it and re-establishes guard.

Today, I don't do that so much as it is wasting my time to get out of this guard. Sankyo was cool and all that, but as you can see it did not do much to improve my position which was still to be in his guard. I a real fight, His buddy would have clocked me right?

Anyway, back in the his guard and at (1:49) I catch his arm again fumble with sankyo and end up in Ikkyo at (1:51) Good ikkyo, but I am still in his guard, so I ikkyo him right back over on his back and we reset...of course...in the guard. I go right back into Sankyo AGAIN!

What you can't see at around 2:00 is that my right hand has his left in Sankyo. You can see it there at around 2:15 as he moves his hips up to attempt the arm bar. Actually I think the Sankyo prevents him from gaining the arm bar...this time I do manage to break free and go back to standing. (2:25)

From an Aikido perspective...I'd say that I was successful some what at this point. I grappled with a very experience (albeit much lighter) opponent and it resulted in my standing and him on the ground.

But this is Grappling so I throw his legs to the side for a sweep and dive right back in on the ground (2:38)

Into side control, then he shrimps right back to the Guard.

This time I do okay, posture up, and go right back to standing with him on the ground. (3:00)

Back to the ground, we roll around a little bit longer, bunch of crap happens..I am searching again for his arm because by this time I am convinced that I am going to submit Pablo with an Sankyo...even though it appears that he is going for a arm bar at around 4:00...I don't care as I am in there hunting for that hand. (Remember, I outweigh him by alot).

Around 4:4 or 4:45 I am on top of him with my right shin across his face. Sort of have "some" control...not much, really unstable actually...but alas...at 4:48 I am going for that arm again. Looks like this time I am going to lay a decent sankyo on him!

Doesn't work, but I do manage to get away again to standing. (success from a combat perspective?) 4:57

then you watch Pablo scoot around the floor while I take a break.

Well 30 seconds of that, then dive right back in for more ground fighting at 5:38. Actually I remember getting kinda frustrated and pissed at this point. (This was a "no time limit" "fight to the finish" grappling fight) So I get pretty violent in his guard trying to upset the situation. At 5:43 you actually see me kinda cross face pablo with a right forearm (Sorry bud).

We screw around a little more in the guard at 6:00 I pick him up and slam him down to loosen him up Pablo messes around trying for a leg bar, then manuevers back into the guard and me right in to his triangle choke for his finish.

How much "aikido" was in there? None if you ask me. Lots of jiujitsu and a few things the aikidoka are familiar with such as sankyo and one ikkyo.

I think the techniques were "okay" they disrupted Pablo, he was not used to them and I used them probably to defend off quite a few of his submission attempts, but he was never really in danger of being submitted by me.

What I think was successful was the fact that I broke away at least three times from the grappling situation and went back to standing.

I try to do this in tournaments as it is my personal philosophy that this is the goal. However, it does not win submission fights, and it does not help if your "job" is to subdue your opponent, which I failed to do.

Today, I don't really waste time on doing the sankyo in this position, as I now know how to use myself more efficiently to get out of the guard (or never get in it), and to gain control of the dominant position before attempting those cool wrist locks.

Anyway, forgot about this and thought some of you might like to see an "aikidoka" doing Grappling.

gdandscompserv
09-08-2008, 05:53 PM
I'd wager he missed and hit neck/jaw/body the first two times. Bullet + brain = dead. A single bullet would kill a grizzly if you could penetrate his skull.
That's not what he said. He said he nailed him in the head all three times.

L. Camejo
09-08-2008, 07:17 PM
What was the point of this thread again???

:D

Buck
09-08-2008, 08:39 PM
Kevin,

Thanks for taking the time and effort in sharing that. :)

gdandscompserv
09-08-2008, 08:55 PM
What was the point of this thread again???

:D
Sorry.:o

Stefan Stenudd
09-09-2008, 03:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYX1vthSrnI
This was a GI submission fight I did as a blue belt about 4 years ago.
Thanks for sharing. Very interesting. I was much more impressed by your work in the match, than your opponents. The other guy just remained on the ground, waiting for your initiatives. In many martial arts, that would be judged as passivity.

I admire your principle of wanting to get up, and I am sure that it's correct strategic thinking. It is also a choice that makes for better adaptivity to a wider variety of match rules.

Quite interesting also to see your use of sankyo and ikkyo. Have you also tried other aikido techniques in grappling - such as nikyo, kotegaeshi, or any of the aikido end pinnings?

Again, many thanks for sharing the video and your enlightening comments on it.

Kevin Leavitt
09-09-2008, 07:47 PM
Stefan,

Thanks of the kind comments. Yes, Grappling is a sport, so it was a beneficial strategy to for him to remain on the ground. As mentioned many times before, as long as we keep thing is the right perspective, there is much that can be learned from grappling.

It also begs the question about "what is effective?" It really does depend on the situation. I'd agree in many respects I was successful as I "dominated" the guy sort of for 6 minutes without him submitting me and broke free several times, and could have walked away.

However, if my job as to subdue him to prevent some other harm, or to arrest him...would I have fell short?

Hard to say, but that is why I believe it is important to train with various endstates in mind.

Other techniques?

Pulled a kotegaeshi the other day from a lapel grab. It usually only works once and then the are on to you. It does good at establishing kuzushi from standing.

Also I do a modified wristlock, nikkyo ALOT especially standing when pummelling, from the mount, and from side control. I grab that alot when doing arm bars as well.

The key to doing them though is proper control of dominant position, or hip control. If you don't have it, they won't work very well for a submission.

This video outlines that pretty darn good.

Thanks Again.

Stefan Stenudd
09-10-2008, 02:26 AM
The key to doing them though is proper control of dominant position, or hip control. If you don't have it, they won't work very well for a submission.
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, so please elaborate. Do you refer to the break-balance entry, where the opponent is removed from a position/posture where the hips give maximum support for movement of other parts of the body?

If so, I'd say that this is essential in any application of aikido techniques, and not just in grappling. Would you agree?

Very interesting to learn that you find frequent use for nikyo. That was my guess, which is why I mentioned it first.

Another question: Aikido end pinnings are almost always with uke belly down on the floor, and not on his or her back. Is that pointless in grappling, or next to impossible to accomplish?

Aristeia
09-10-2008, 04:57 AM
not Kevin, but here's my two cents.
Occassionally I'll catch an aikidoesque pin, face down controlling the arm vertically. Never on anyone with decent experience - even if I get the position they generally roll out before I can lock it in. Part of that is I think to do with their ooda loop - groundfighting is predicated on rolling your body around, twisting it in and out of good and bad positions. Where as standing there is a possiblity perhaps to get more advanced on the pin while they still think it's a standup game. who knows.

I will say though that the BJJ move known as omoplatata is pretty much an aikidoesque pin - the key difference being that it is done with your legs pinning their shoulder, not your arms - which in actual fact frees the arms up to control the hips and prevent the rollout.

FWIW

Kevin Leavitt
09-10-2008, 09:14 AM
"Control of hips" is a wide open subject. I will discuss more on it later as I have time. But, essentially Fooks covers it well. Yea, OODA loop getting inside or ahead is what is key. I'd say the stuff I did in the video was an attempt to disrupt his OODA loop. Never got ahead of it though, we were pretty neutral i'd say.

Aikido pins vs JJ pins?

Well again, perspective and assumptions are all a big part of "what really works".

What works in Comp JJ effectively doesn't always translate well to street and vice versa.

I think the best thing in the world is Knee on Belly or Knee on Back. Good control position and you have mobility.

Comp JJ is not concerned about mobility so much as submitting them. There are tradeoffs I think between mobility/flexibility (the ability to adapt or deal with Mulitiple Opponents) and your ability to control/submit.

Finding the balance is key.

I think having your opponent facedown is always preferable than face up. Again, rules and situation dictate.

good discussion.

I will talk about more later tonight.

DH
09-10-2008, 10:14 AM
I will say though that the BJJ move known as omoplatata is pretty much an aikidoesque pin - the key difference being that it is done with your legs pinning their shoulder, not your arms - which in actual fact frees the arms up to control the hips and prevent the rollout.
FWIW
I will say though that the BJJ move known as omoplatata is pretty much a daito-esque pin;) more in line with imobilizing the shoulder with your bodyweight (through the leg intitially but "fixing it" in place with body weight transfer) where the person cannot change his postion to undo it.
Where as in many aikido stand-up locks the body is not based, therefore most can be reversed with relative ease. So as a cogent strategy I wouldn't see an aikido connection in it at all.

Aristeia
09-10-2008, 12:30 PM
Where as in many aikido stand-up locks the body is not based, therefore most can be reversed with relative ease. So as a cogent strategy I wouldn't see an aikido connection in it at all.I was thinking more of the seated pins - while not having the same bodyweight aplied as omo - they do offer more stability and focus on the shoulder.

Kevin - totally agree about the knee ride - I think it's one of the most under utilised positions in BJJ given its usefulness for non comp applications. Remember a few years ago we had a gasshuku - Moriteru Ueshiba and came over with a few others. Arai Sensei became my firm favourite the minute I saw him drop to a back ride after a particular technique...

DonMagee
09-10-2008, 01:56 PM
I LOVE knee riding people. Knee on belly, knee on back, knee on neck, it doesn't matter, I love it!

DH
09-10-2008, 02:03 PM
While I agree with the knee-particularly on the neck- I think side mount with elbow, and then...a knee "in the head" is a wonderful case for brain acceleration and the guy going nu-nights.;)

Kevin Leavitt
09-10-2008, 05:31 PM
Dan Harden wrote:

Where as in many aikido stand-up locks the body is not based, therefore most can be reversed with relative ease. So as a cogent strategy I wouldn't see an aikido connection in it at all.

can you explain a little more about "as a cogent strategy I wouldn't see an aikido connection in it at all."

I don't understand.

Thanks Dan.