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rob_liberti
09-02-2008, 11:59 AM
Here is an entire thread dedicated to the tired theme of why Dan Harden should post videos of himself. Please by all means post all of your new insights and strengthened arguments as to why he should and refuses to do so right here and not in every other thread he is in.

Rob

rob_liberti
09-02-2008, 12:05 PM
I believe I have become Dan's secretary....

Coffee Mr Harden?

MM
09-02-2008, 01:05 PM
This is the Aikiweb... and yes Dan you are presenting a paper...There are some of us who will never get to experience what you have to offer personally, or through some of your students. We can only go by what you present here. Given the number of modern media tools available I just don't understand your "reasons" considering the amount of energy you put into advocating your methods and how simple you state this practice is to learn. Let's just take a look at your "peers"

Mike Sigman-Online with vids
Ark- Online with vids
Obata Sensei-Online with vids
Kondo Shihan-Online with vids
Mark Murray!!! :) Online with vids


Well, to be fair, Mike hasn't really posted vids in quite awhile. Most of what you find are his early training vids.

Ark does post some stuff, but Rob probably posts more.

And me? Egads! I suck big time. I shouldn't be on that list. Heck, I think Chris Moses' vid looked a lot better than mine. You should make a list of people-who-don't-have-anything-but-are-training and then I'd make that list. :)


Like I said you spend allot of time and energy advocating "it" here... but respectfully... You marginalize those out there who don't have any "first hand experience" and may never experiance it.


I think that in the next year to two years, some of us will be out and about. Things are changing and I had expected it to be in the next 5 years, but it might be sooner than that.

It's already been proven that someone who isn't training in this stuff directly can still do the exercises and get better -- provided that they do work with someone to get corrections every so often (anywhere from every 3 to 6 months) and that they put the work into it.

For those who haven't had the chance to train with Mike, Ark, or Dan, don't lose hope. I think there will be opportunities to get into this type of training in one form or another.


If you found another way to discuss your concerns without denigrating Yudansha who do not practice the way you do, and backed it up with helpful 'presentations" (something to his credit Mark Murray has tried to do)


Erg, ack, and :eek: Please, William, don't use me as a lever. I respect Dan's choice on the no-vid thing. But if you want to try to change his mind, please don't use me in the attempt. I don't mind putting myself out there on vid for other aikido people to take a look at and I'll probably do some more, but not if I feel like it'll be used to try to get Dan to post vids.

Dan's a smart guy (most of the time :) ). If you give him some solid, good reasons, at the very least, he'll think about it. You never know, he might change his mind.

Aikibu
09-02-2008, 01:49 PM
Well, to be fair, Mike hasn't really posted vids in quite awhile. Most of what you find are his early training vids.

Ark does post some stuff, but Rob probably posts more.

And me? Egads! I suck big time. I shouldn't be on that list. Heck, I think Chris Moses' vid looked a lot better than mine. You should make a list of people-who-don't-have-anything-but-are-training and then I'd make that list. :)

I think that in the next year to two years, some of us will be out and about. Things are changing and I had expected it to be in the next 5 years, but it might be sooner than that.

It's already been proven that someone who isn't training in this stuff directly can still do the exercises and get better -- provided that they do work with someone to get corrections every so often (anywhere from every 3 to 6 months) and that they put the work into it.

For those who haven't had the chance to train with Mike, Ark, or Dan, don't lose hope. I think there will be opportunities to get into this type of training in one form or another.

Erg, ack, and :eek: Please, William, don't use me as a lever. I respect Dan's choice on the no-vid thing. But if you want to try to change his mind, please don't use me in the attempt. I don't mind putting myself out there on vid for other aikido people to take a look at and I'll probably do some more, but not if I feel like it'll be used to try to get Dan to post vids.

Dan's a smart guy (most of the time :) ). If you give him some solid, good reasons, at the very least, he'll think about it. You never know, he might change his mind.

Please reread my original post. I think you took some of it out of context I did not say you were great just that in order to better describe your experience you actually took the time to share it...Feeling Used to get at Dan....LOL Man I can't actually believe you said that. ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! A Web Machiavellian I am not. :) And (two) I gave him solid good reasons as have others ad infinitum.

And Rob I make a sincere request and you call it "tired"?

Thanks Buddy. :) I am surprised that if you're tired of the question then it follows perhaps that you agree to the following tired old premises regarding Dan's Training

A. Why do people keep asking for more descriptive information over and over and over again...

B. Why do any posts regarding the subject quickly turn into a referendum on the "effectiveness" of modern Aikido visa vis Grappling... IMA... MMA...Nuclear Weapons...The Street...Boxing...The Joker...Ninjas...Vikings...Pirates....Really Mean Big Guys with super human strength...BJJ... Light Sabers....

C. Why over the years should people have to read the same old arguments from the same old people about what is "wrong" with Aikido and how to fix it.

You see Rob "wrong" is a point of view expressed by Dan, You and others Ad infinitum...

Until you can figure out a way to share what you know without knocking what others don't Then be prepared to continually be asked the same question over and over again by those who do not have the luxury to hang out with Dan. Heck at least Ark and Mike and others travel around to share "it" some of them even go to different countries. Koji Yoshida (My Sensei) has a website and travels around the world 10 months out of the year to share what he knows of our Aikido. I am not saying Dan has to do that...What I am saying it's getting to be a pretty thin excuse to hang out in your barn and expect the world to come to you. :)

William Hazen

MM
09-02-2008, 02:03 PM
Please reread my original post. I think you took some of it out of context I did not say you were great just that in order to better describe your experience you actually took the time to share it...


Oh, so now I'm not great? Pretty soon you'll say I'm downright horrible. ;) :D

Seriously, I got the gist of your argument there. I just didn't like seeing my name up there with the others.


Until you can figure out a way to share what you know without knocking what others don't Then be prepared to continually be asked the same question over and over again by those who do not have the luxury to hang out with Dan. Heck at least Ark and Mike and others travel around to share "it" some of them even go to different countries. Koji Yoshida (My Sensei) has a website and travels around the world 10 months out of the year to share what he knows of our Aikido. I am not saying Dan has to do that...What I am saying it's getting to be a pretty thin excuse to hang out in your barn and expect the world to come to you. :)

William Hazen

As I noted, William, I do think things will change in the next couple of years. I know I travel around from work -- in fact, I should be in San Diego around the first week of November. I probably won't have a vehicle, so my options of going to meet people will be slim. But if people want to meet me, I'm all up for it.

Mark

gdandscompserv
09-02-2008, 03:12 PM
I would love to see Dan on video simply because I think he is doing what Osensei was doing as far as power generation. However, I really don't think it would be very helpful to me in learning that kind of power generation. His post's here on aikiweb and elsewhere have me convinced that he has the 'secret' of aiki.:cool:

phitruong
09-02-2008, 04:10 PM
maybe Dan isn't photogenic so he doesn't want to post any video. for example, I looked fat on camera so I don't own one much less have a video camera. or maybe Dan is low tech (since many reference on barnyard activities) like me who wouldn't know how to operate a video camera and couldn't tell the different between a mp3 or avi, but we sure can tell the different between an AK-47 and AR-15.

videos would be great, but video with written explanation, like rob john, would be even better. sometimes, I only need a hint or two to work things out. :)

Kevin Leavitt
09-02-2008, 05:29 PM
videos I think are of very limited value as most of this is based on senory input or feel. Even watching Ark and Mike at the seminars what not all that useful. It requried them to come around and adjust you or have you feel it in them until you captured it in feel. then you had to do it over and over again until you kinda got the jest of it.

Then you go home with Video and attempt to replicate it. Get confused, make some progress, but like Mark said you need to get adjusted every 3 to 6 months as you will lose some of it and need to be adjusted again, and again.

It is a process I believe that requres feel and direct feedback.

Kevin Leavitt
09-02-2008, 05:32 PM
Oops sorry Rob, just realized that the purpose of the thread is to convince Dan to post videos...not discourage him. I appologize has this is not a part of the topic.

I would like to see some video footage of Dan to be honest. Again, I stand by what I said above. However, I do believe it would be helpful to at least watch his body language and get to know him a little better through watching him move. There is much I think that we could tell in the non-verbal communication and watching him do things that would lead to a better understaanding.

Please post something Dan.

Just caution everyone that you won't see much that can be learned from watching the video, but would be helpful for other things if you know what you are looking for.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-02-2008, 07:07 PM
I'd like to put a face to the name. Trying to steal techniques will be fruitless and critizising his performance pointless so I'm not interested in these aspects.

Buck
09-02-2008, 08:10 PM
I had no idea nor do I understand why anyone who says they have the missing piece or holy grail to make all Aikidoka better, and is going to teach it to all Aikidoka teachers be covert about it. It doesn't make sense that he isn't willing to validate his claims and creditability.

If people don't show the world what they got, we automatically discredit them. That is the way it goes. You have to have a business sense about you, otherwise sucker constantly. Martial arts isn't the stock market. In Martial arts and sports, you have to see what some one does, it is the cardinal rule. That is why there are tournaments and demos. You work out side of that and your creditability ends up in the toilet. People tested O'Sensei all the time what he did. If I am right O'Sensei was advertising anything like Dan is. He didn't have to, he proved to everyone on the mat. All great martial arts did and do. That is just the way it is. There is no virtual in martial art.

Also words are limiting. A picture is worth a thousand words. I am curious. Just hearing about it isn't the same as seeing what is happening.

I didn't know this was such a big deal but the simple answer is for him to gain some public credibility to what he says because he is broadcasting it to the world. It is to his benefit to do it. :)

mathewjgano
09-02-2008, 09:02 PM
It doesn't make sense that he isn't willing to validate his claims and creditability.
I think he's validated his claims by directly interacting with enough people that I'm already pretty convinced of his relative ability.

If people don't show the world what they got, we automatically discredit them. That is the way it goes. You have to have a business sense about you, otherwise sucker constantly.
Personally, I'm not a fan of cynicism. If I were in Dan's shoe's I might not post a video purely for the cynics. Heck, he might just be camera shy and I'd say that's reason not to post a video. As much as I'd love to watch how he moves to see what I could see, I don't blame him for not wanting to put himself on display just to satisfy Business Sense, let alone anyone but himself. If he doesn't feel compelled to do it, so be it. It sounds like he shares what he knows about as much as he directly can. That's pretty right on with me.
That said:
Dan please consider making a video demonstrating some of your exercises and drills. For sale, for free (I prefer the latter:D ), I'd love the chance to at least give some of them a try. Yes, feedback in real-time is crucial to serious study, but I think a good many people would stand to benefit from learning even the most basic exercises you find to be so crucial to learning aiki, let alone a wider display of your methodology. I've long learned a lot by watching people closely. Maybe it's beyond my ability to understand the depth of what you'd be showing, but I'd be willing to bet I pick up something useful.
At any rate, take care all.
Matt

Buck
09-02-2008, 09:55 PM
This isn't the stockmarket and inside trading is a crime. I don't buy anything because just because someone says its the best. You don't buy a house or a car, etc. blindly because someone says too. Just because a bunch of carsales men tell you about a the car and how well made it is without seeing it, would you buy it. Same with a house.

If a buch of people tell you, hey I know this guy he is in the martial arts and his hands are deadly they are register with the police, and he can knock before you can blink. What are you going to think, he is that good. Probably not if you have been in the martial arts for a while.

It seems very strange that I sense there is this defensiveness to having Dan simply showing what he can do. It is really odd. That is a universal big red flag. It is like all these guys coming to Dan's defense are saying you must believe it exists because others have said so. weird.

If he isn't going to show what he can do how do I know he can do it. I want to see for myself, what is wrong with that! That is normal, but what isn't normal is expecting people to give it validation because someone says so. Why the mystery, why the street cup and ball game, or three card monty game? Why all the drama?

And there shouldn't be an issue at all. I don't know if it is real or not! I asked to see what the man has, and then I get you just have to accept it because we say so and so does he. No. I don't.

I just wanted to see what the guy had because he said he had it. It being something that would make all of us Aikidokas, grappler butt-kickers. He said he was equal to O'Sensei. Naturally, I wanted to see what us Aikidoka are missing. It like saying, "OK Mr. Door to Door Salesmen you sold me, now let's see this great product your selling.". And he says. "no you just have to believe it is a great product, and the other guys around him are saying its true, we heard it too. Well, until I see something, I can't give the man any validation or credibility to what he is selling. That is normal human nature, and being smart, educated etc. Otherwise, you've a canidate for Bubba's Sucker Club. :)

rob_liberti
09-03-2008, 09:26 AM
William,

I honestly understand your point. I've read that sincere point enough times that I got TIRED of reading it. I'm not taking it back. :)

However, I also appreciated your position and since I can't make Dan to put himself on a video, and I'm not good enough to make one myself worth a damn - I offered to come visit you the moment I had anything worth sharing. It won't be AS GOOD as seeing Dan but feeling what I'll share in person will give you as much of the experience you would like to have that I can possibly offer myself.

So yes, I'm your friend and being friendly. And your friends can get tired of the same old arguments. We now even have a wonderful place dedicated to discussing this particular point so it doesn't creep up in EVERY OTHER thread.

Rob

Keith Larman
09-03-2008, 09:57 AM
Being an information glutton I'd love to see videos. I buy good videos from different arts, I buy books, etc. Now I'm the first person who'll say you can't learn an art from a book but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading them. And yes, I think I learn *something* but I'm also under no illusions as to really understanding anything. I'm just a curious soul.

That said I can fully understand not posting videos. I don't like seeing videos of my own classes although I'm pretty sure nobody would be interested anyway since I'm nothin' special. And I know my sensei would be irate if I ever video taped and posted something without permission.

Anyway to me it is much like the work I do in sword restoration. I get e-mails every week from people who want me to teach them "how to polish" over the internet. Or by phone. Or by video. The reality, however, is that such a thing is impossible. And no matter what I recorded there would always be things missing and lost. It is an interactive thing, a back and forth of questions and answer coupled with direct experience. How it feels on the stones, the sound it makes, how the stone is shaped, the blade, and on and on and on.

So with all the requests I get from people who want to learn the grand total of people who have actually come to visit and watch while I work is... 3. The total who stayed longer than 1 hour? 1. The total who came more than once? 0. Sounds like Dan is doing better than me since Rob is apparently going back... ;)

I don't comment much in these threads because quite frankly I've not gone to train with any of these guys. I was hoping to find time to head up to a Pacific NW deal if Chris Moses gets Ark out again as I have some family up there that would allow me to work in a visit with them as part of the justification of the expense. But the reality is that if I was really and truly interested in learning these things I'd make the time (and I'm hoping I can, but the proof is in the pudding, neh?) So till then... As my dad used to say, either poop or get off the pot. And quit hassling about videos and the like. Either go visit these guys and find out what they're about or don't go. If you go you'll have a basis upon which to comment further. If not you guys are just arguing over things you can't possibly see eye to eye on because you haven't worked together.

For my part I've seen Toby Threadgill at demos. Extraordinarily impressive to my eyes. And some amazing things being done that truly strained my understanding of Aiki. I loved it. I can comment on that. I'd love to devote myself to that sort of thing, but we all make choices on what we can do and how much time we have to devote to these sorts of things. A daughter in second grade and hence not enough money (meaning time to devote) are my reasons. And Toby doesn't take on casual students nor would I even presume to ask knowing that he doesn't. I know better.

Anyway... I know the discussion will just flare up again... I just had to say that I just don't get it all. Either get out there and train with the guy or don't. Maybe Dan is totally full of himself or maybe Dan has discovered the hidden treasure of Aikido. Of maybe he's somewhere in between -- smart money is there of course. But until you get there hands on discussion after *so many discussions* already seems rather silly.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled stuff... Had to get that off my chest...

DH
09-03-2008, 11:34 AM
I've fully addressed the reasons why I won't do videos. All that is left to discuss is to challenge my personal integrity, motivations and stated goals.
That speaks for itself.
From the mid 90's to today I haven't changed my comments or views. As my understanding deepened my convictions did as well. Its been quite an interesting 18 yrs since I started down this aiki road. To address some of Keiths comments about possibly being full of myself. I think that is a hard case to make since I continually point to others-and those from cross cultures arts-like Mike, Ark, the ICMA, and some DR teachers etc.
I am no "fan" of any one person, including myself, as it is too narrow a focus. I am a fan and researcher of the method...and not the man
The only time the man as a singular entity comes to the fore is in the question of whether or not he can teach what he knows.
To address that question. I will once again point to some strong statements about Aikido™ that I have indeed made, or that others have made that I have supported. What was the outcome?
Teachers of aikido from 3rd Dan to 6th dan have tested both my skill, and my knowledge, and my ability to teach it others..and more importantly to them.
To a man, they...now all agree with me.

Nothing will end the controversy as it is a defining one. The open discussion and direct displays of these skills by men with the ability to demonstrate them are defining aikido as it is practiced today. It is unfortunate that it is divisive, but I believe that is unavoidable because it is so defining.
I have had some serious discussions with board moderators to find a way to discuss what is most possibly the most important shift that is going to occur in modern budo. Board moderators are concerned for several reasons. it is turning into a have and have nots, which is divisive, and since it is reaching a 100% conversion rate among those who continue to research it, it is ever increasing in its divisiveness. the only thing to do is try to be as understanding as possible and polite as possible while making some very direct statements that do not sit well with budo people from all walks, but prove to be, as it turns out, completely supportable in person.

To that end, those of us taking about it do what we can, when we can. Mike and Ark do seminars once or twice a year in remote locations. Ark with several at his location. I do maybe 6 a year but only at my location. I am thinking of expanding that and trying to coordinate something within my business and family obligations and my own training in another art.
Things are going to change-well they already are, as some serious teachers in Aikido, are now embracing training aiki for the first time in their careers. Aikido, is going to change for the better-in the opinion of your teachers with decades of experience. Three of your own 6th dans have considered it life changing and a defning moment in their own careers. Add to them hundreds of students both here and in Europe that will never go back to the way they trained aiki...ever.
I consider that very good news for all of us. So, while some consider it devisive and negative, I can only respond that change is sometimes difficult and painful, but often beneficial and in the end affirming. nd in this case, it is making friends, and benefitting many as it is occuring.
I'm looking forward to the future, but it wil never include Video. I see no compelling or constructive reason to do so since people struggle with their understanding with hours of hands-on personal instruction. I remain unmoved.

gdandscompserv
09-03-2008, 11:59 AM
thread closed.:D

Upyu
09-03-2008, 12:19 PM
If he isn't going to show what he can do how do I know he can do it. I want to see for myself, what is wrong with that! That is normal, but what isn't normal is expecting people to give it validation because someone says so. Why the mystery, why the street cup and ball game, or three card monty game? Why all the drama?
<SNIP>

Err...everyone's pretty much said you just have to feel it.
No one's saying you gotta buy it just cuz they said so.

Trust me, there isn't any denying this stuff once someone's tossed you on your ass like a baby doll. ;)

"BUT I gotta flllyyy all the way out there ...annd its so farrrr....and gas taxation is killing meeee"

then I guess you really aren't interested in the skills all that badly ;)

FWIW, Dan doesn't or didn't charge anything from what I understand. (If I didnt have access to the skills I would've been there in a heart beat! No charge... personal instruction in the how's why's etc?? that's a no brainer)
And considering the rarity of these skills, much less anyone that can actually teach it, no one has any excuse for not going to see one of these people if they really want the skills.

I'd quote the "Clear power" book again, but I think the rod's splintered by now. :D

Aikibu
09-03-2008, 01:06 PM
William,

I honestly understand your point. I've read that sincere point enough times that I got TIRED of reading it. I'm not taking it back. :)

However, I also appreciated your position and since I can't make Dan to put himself on a video, and I'm not good enough to make one myself worth a damn - I offered to come visit you the moment I had anything worth sharing. It won't be AS GOOD as seeing Dan but feeling what I'll share in person will give you as much of the experience you would like to have that I can possibly offer myself.

So yes, I'm your friend and being friendly. And your friends can get tired of the same old arguments. We now even have a wonderful place dedicated to discussing this particular point so it doesn't creep up in EVERY OTHER thread.

Rob

No worries Rob. :) I have already stated why Dan should document what he does in some fashion and the fact that you agree that these same arguments occur over and over again validates my reason for asking Dan to "show us(the readers) the money". :)

Sadly considering Dan's deliberate silence and his propensity to make provocative statements without anyone being able to reference his practice I am afraid these "no point of reference" pointless debates may continue.

Do not interpret this as some kind of challenge Dan and don't get stuck on videos... It's just a very simple request for documentation.

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-03-2008, 01:09 PM
Err...everyone's pretty much said you just have to feel it.
No one's saying you gotta buy it just cuz they said so.

Trust me, there isn't any denying this stuff once someone's tossed you on your ass like a baby doll. ;)

"BUT I gotta flllyyy all the way out there ...annd its so farrrr....and gas taxation is killing meeee"

then I guess you really aren't interested in the skills all that badly ;)

FWIW, Dan doesn't or didn't charge anything from what I understand. (If I didnt have access to the skills I would've been there in a heart beat! No charge... personal instruction in the how's why's etc?? that's a no brainer)
And considering the rarity of these skills, much less anyone that can actually teach it, no one has any excuse for not going to see one of these people if they really want the skills.

I'd quote the "Clear power" book again, but I think the rod's splintered by now. :D

And so the jerk chimes in...I have felt this power before I very much appreciate what Dan does and you're completely missing the point. But considering the very helpful context of most of your posts :disgust: I am not surprised.

William Hazen

MM
09-03-2008, 01:21 PM
I have felt this power before

William Hazen

Changing the subject, I'm curious who had this power that you felt? Not that I've been everywhere and done everything, but I don't know many that stack up to that level. Course, I'm not all that great with the Chinese martial artists either. But, just curious who it was if it's in the aikido world.

Mark

DH
09-03-2008, 01:23 PM
William
Is there any benefit in insulting people personally? I think we need to be done with that. I aplogize on the rare occasions I get personal. Please don't sully a thread. It's bad enough my name is on it already.

BTW, I think Rob J. made some good points, in that most budo people somehow...magically...manage to arrive at seminars they are truly interested in.
Plain fairs from coast to coast I just reviewed are around $380.00. Motels $50
There are several seminars a year offered with men with this power, who openly and activey teach it.
Since we are the ones arranging, coordinating, and giving our time to not only both back-up what we write, but offer support to those coming to train
The credibility issue doesn't seem to be ours.

William,
Where and with whom have you felt this power?

Aikibu
09-03-2008, 01:32 PM
I've fully addressed the reasons why I won't do videos. All that is left to discuss is to challenge my personal integrity, motivations and stated goals.
That speaks for itself.
From the mid 90's to today I haven't changed my comments or views. As my understanding deepened my convictions did as well. Its been quite an interesting 18 yrs since I started down this aiki road. To address some of Keiths comments about possibly being full of myself. I think that is a hard case to make since I continually point to others-and those from cross cultures arts-like Mike, Ark, the ICMA, and some DR teachers etc.
I am no "fan" of any one person, including myself, as it is too narrow a focus. I am a fan and researcher of the method...and not the man
The only time the man as a singular entity comes to the fore is in the question of whether or not he can teach what he knows.
To address that question. I will once again point to some strong statements about Aikido™ that I have indeed made, or that others have made that I have supported. What was the outcome?
Teachers of aikido from 3rd Dan to 6th dan have tested both my skill, and my knowledge, and my ability to teach it others..and more importantly to them.
To a man, they...now all agree with me.

Please provide references. :)

Nothing will end the controversy as it is a defining one. The open discussion and direct displays of these skills by men with the ability to demonstrate them are defining aikido as it is practiced today. It is unfortunate that it is divisive, but I believe that is unavoidable because it is so defining.

Sorry Dan but I don't agree with the divisive meme. Again it is a simple request to document and define what you are doing. I personally have no difficulty taking our Aikido "to the next level".

I have had some serious discussions with board moderators to find a way to discuss what is most possibly the most important shift that is going to occur in modern budo. Board moderators are concerned for several reasons. it is turning into a have and have nots, which is divisive, and since it is reaching a 100% conversion rate among those who continue to research it, it is ever increasing in its divisiveness. the only thing to do is try to be as understanding as possible and polite as possible while making some very direct statements that do not sit well with budo people from all walks, but prove to be, as it turns out, completely supportable in person. Again given this statement every pioneer or revolutionary has at one time or another put it all down on paper or otherwise fully documented the changes he wishes to make. It is only divisive in my opinion because of a lack of information.

To that end, those of us taking about it do what we can, when we can. Mike and Ark do seminars once or twice a year in remote locations. Ark with several at his location. I do maybe 6 a year but only at my location. I am thinking of expanding that and trying to coordinate something within my business and family obligations and my own training in another art.

That is good news and one can understand why you can only do so much hence again why not share it with as many as you can?

[Things are going to change-well they already are, as some serious teachers in Aikido, are now embracing training aiki for the first time in their careers. Aikido, is going to change for the better-in the opinion of your teachers with decades of experience. Three of your own 6th dans have considered it life changing and a defning moment in their own careers. Add to them hundreds of students both here and in Europe that will never go back to the way they trained aiki...ever.

Again Dan....Documentation. You mention "3 of your own 6th Dans?" Who??? I know every Nishio Affiliated 6th Dan in the United States... What branch of Aikido do these 6th Dans practice??? "Hundreds of students"??? Where?? Are there any affiliated Dojos? Do you have plans to handle the tremendous growth you see as your Aiki training revolutionizes Aikido and you get thousands of students...Do you have a Syllabus...Exam standards or grades... Teaching certifications...

I consider that very good news for all of us. So, while some consider it devisive and negative, I can only respond that change is sometimes difficult and painful, but often beneficial and in the end affirming. nd in this case, it is making friends, and benefitting many as it is occuring.
I'm looking forward to the future, but it wil never include Video. I see no compelling or constructive reason to do so since people struggle with their understanding with hours of hands-on personal instruction. I remain unmoved.

I completely agree and very much look forward the future of Aiki in Aikido. I sincerely wish you all the best in this regard and look forward to meeting Mark and Rob and hopefully you someday. :)

I hope my questions have moved you to look beyond the tree you are fixed on (aka video) to see the forest. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-03-2008, 01:39 PM
William
Is there any benefit in insulting people personally? I think we need to be done with that. I aplogize on the rare occasions I get personal. Please don't sully a thread. It's bad enough my name is on it already.

BTW, I think Rob J. made some good points, in that most budo people somehow...magically...manage to arrive at seminars they are truly interested in.
Plain fairs from coast to coast I just reviewed are around $380.00. Motels $50
There are several seminars a year offered with men with this power, who openly and activey teach it.
Since we are the ones arranging, coordinating, and giving our time to not only both back-up what we write, but offer support to those coming to train
The credibility issue doesn't seem to be ours.

Sorry Dan my mother is dying from cancer and her care is my priority. I stand by my comments to Rob. I am sure he means well but his people skills need work IMO

William,
Where and with whom have you felt this power?

Again one more time Taika Oyata Sensei of Ryu Te and Tanaka Sensei both here at various times in California. There are others as well...

Why do you ask? :)

William Hazen

Upyu
09-03-2008, 01:47 PM
And so the jerk chimes in...I have felt this power before I very much appreciate what Dan does and you're completely missing the point. But considering the very helpful context of most of your posts :disgust: I am not surprised.

William Hazen

I don't doubt that you have, but I haven't seen you make any meaningful contributions back when the mechanics were being discussed...
So one's got to wonder whether a) you got anything out of it
or whether b) you actually got to experience it in the first place.

I'd lean towards a).

頭を使わないとねぇ -> どっかで聞いたセリフ

Aikibu
09-03-2008, 01:49 PM
I apologize to Rob. Please delete the post Jun.

William Hazen

Keith Larman
09-03-2008, 01:54 PM
To address some of Keiths comments about possibly being full of myself. I think that is a hard case to make since I continually point to others-and those from cross cultures arts-like Mike, Ark, the ICMA, and some DR teachers etc.
I am no "fan" of any one person, including myself, as it is too narrow a focus. I am a fan and researcher of the method...and not the man

Just in case it wasn't clear I wasn't saying you were. I was commenting on the perceptions by others here on the board that seem to range from one extreme to another. All that I was trying to say that unless they get on the mat with you all the discussion is ultimately moot.

And I can't imagine why you'd want to do videos anyway. This stuff ain't learned from videos or websites. It is sweat on the mat.

MM
09-03-2008, 02:17 PM
And I can't imagine why you'd want to do videos anyway. This stuff ain't learned from videos or websites. It is sweat on the mat.

Don't forget sweat at home, too, with solo exercises. :)

MM
09-03-2008, 02:21 PM
Sorry Dan my mother is dying from cancer and her care is my priority. I stand by my comments to Rob. I am sure he means well but his people skills need work IMO

Again one more time Taika Oyata Sensei of Ryu Te and Tanaka Sensei both here at various times in California. There are others as well...

William Hazen

Sorry to hear about your mother, William. Wish you the best of luck in her battle.

I don't remember you mentioning them. Must have missed that post. Thanks for the reply.

DH
09-03-2008, 02:28 PM
Hi Keith
No worries there. I knew what you meant and was addressing it as a possible question from the readers.
Did you get my P.M.?

DH
09-03-2008, 02:34 PM
Again one more time Taika Oyata Sensei of Ryu Te and Tanaka Sensei both here at various times in California. There are others as well...

Why do you ask? :)

William Hazen
Because I like to make referrences of who someone thinks has power. I then know who to check out
You had mentioned your sensei who travels around teaching and who has it. Is he one of these men?
If I at least know a name I can look up videos...:D

Hey sorry to hear about your Mom. I feel your pain. I lost my first mom at 18 and my step mom a few years ago.
Now that you went first:
I built an in-law apartment here, and my mother in law died in our arms in my home. Now I help take care of my father-in-law who is 86.
Now add to the mix that I own my own business in a tough time in construction. So I do seminars...here, I have also seriously curtailed my own training in another Koryu I train in on the other side of the continent.
Again, I feel your pain.
Getting -my- picture?

Keith Larman
09-03-2008, 02:37 PM
Don't forget sweat at home, too, with solo exercises. :)

Absolutely, but only after, not before...

Keith Larman
09-03-2008, 02:54 PM
Hi Keith
No worries there. I knew what you meant and was addressing it as a possible question from the readers.
Did you get my P.M.?

Yup, working on a reply. Complex question, actually...

Aikibu
09-03-2008, 03:34 PM
Because I like to make referrences of who someone thinks has power. I then know who to check out
You had mentioned your sensei who travels around teaching and who has it. Is he one of these men?
If I at least know a name I can look up videos...:D

Yeah I understand... When Oyata Sensei and his folks asked if there were any videos books or a website he could look at of you I sadly had to tell him no. :)

Hey sorry to hear about your Mom. I feel your pain. I lost my first mom at 18 and my step mom a few years ago.
Now that you went first:
I built an in-law apartment here, and my mother in law died in our arms in my home. Now I help take care of my father-in-law who is 86.
Now add to the mix that I own my own business in a tough time in construction. So I do seminars...here, I have also seriously curtailed my own training in another Koryu I train in on the other side of the continent.
Again, I feel your pain.
Getting -my- picture?

Sure do Dan...:) We're both a couple of dudes just trying to make a life on this small speck of dust in the vast universe. :)

God Bless You. :)

William Hazen

DH
09-03-2008, 04:02 PM
And to give you and idea of how forthcoming I am being with you William. Most people who currently train with me-don't even know what I just told you. I don't talk about it.
There is a genuiness that you are being offered here my friend, because even though I am not going to do what you ask, and I don't partcularly like the manner in which it is being pressed- I respect the one doing the requesting. I trust that it doesn't escape your attention, either now or in the future. ;)

Aikibu
09-03-2008, 06:52 PM
And to give you and idea of how forthcoming I am being with you William. Most people who currently train with me-don't even know what I just told you. I don't talk about it.
There is a genuiness that you are being offered here my friend, because even though I am not going to do what you ask, and I don't partcularly like the manner in which it is being pressed- I respect the one doing the requesting. I trust that it doesn't escape your attention, either now or in the future. ;)

Your trust is appreciated Dan and will not be taken for granted.

William Hazen

tuturuhan
09-03-2008, 08:37 PM
William,

Where there is an end there is always a beginning. Where there is a beginning there will always be an end.

Each of us, travels an individual road. Yet, each of us, are human in the mortality we are share...

Best wishes,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Aikibu
09-03-2008, 11:34 PM
William,

Where there is an end there is always a beginning. Where there is a beginning there will always be an end.

Each of us, travels an individual road. Yet, each of us, are human in the mortality we are share...

Best wishes,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Thanks Joseph. :)

William Hazen

Jim Sorrentino
09-04-2008, 09:54 AM
Hi Dan,

I've added the bold text to your statement below:

Teachers of aikido from 3rd Dan to 6th dan have tested both my skill, and my knowledge, and my ability to teach it others..and more importantly to them.
To a man, they...now all agree with me.

Nothing will end the controversy as it is a defining one. The open discussion and direct displays of these skills by men with the ability to demonstrate them are defining aikido as it is practiced today. It is unfortunate that it is divisive, but I believe that is unavoidable because it is so defining.
[snip]
Aikido, is going to change for the better-in the opinion of your teachers with decades of experience. Three of your own 6th dans have considered it life changing and a defning moment in their own careers.

In the interests of "open discussion", who are those three aikido 6th dan? Thanks in advance ---

Sincerely,

Jim

rob_liberti
09-04-2008, 12:41 PM
I have personally trained with a 6th Dan aikido person at Dan's barn. Who just emailed me and asked if Dan is having class next Saturday. So if you show up to the barn ...

Asking Dan to put HIMSELF on a video has Dan talking about his own personal boundaries. That is still a silly thing to devote a lot of discussion to, but at least it is not in EVERY OTHER thread anymore.

If 6th dan level aikido people start publicly announcing such things, I'm sure both Dan and I will be happy to bandy about their names.

Until then, Dan's "open discussion" was clearly about HIS PERSONAL business (family situation).

This comes to you from the press secretary for Mr Harden. :)

Rob

BK Barker
09-04-2008, 12:59 PM
Well... you wont see me reply to many posts especially about doing aiki but I understand both sides of this video topic. Yes I like to look at video but in all honesty I feel that unless someone knows or has an idea of what is being shown in these video's it will do nothing more then create a lot of misconceptions and misguided attempts/thoughts on this subject. Sure it's awesome to see some of the power but to see and feel it in person is the ultimate in my opinion. I respect everyone's views on it but I see more of a benefit of not just watching them and trying to figure out what is being done with or without commentary because of everyone's different ability to comprehend spoken/written word. At least in person you get to experience what is being said/taught/explained while being corrected.

Dan thanks again to you and your students I look forward to being able to work with you again sometime.

"Tiltright"

Jim Sorrentino
09-04-2008, 01:50 PM
Hi Rob,If 6th dan level aikido people start publicly announcing such things, I'm sure both Dan and I will be happy to bandy about their names.

Until then, Dan's "open discussion" was clearly about HIS PERSONAL business (family situation).No, it was about what Dan is doing and/or teaching, and its relationship to aikido. Here is what Dan said:Nothing will end the controversy as it is a defining one. The open discussion and direct displays of these skills by men with the ability to demonstrate them are defining aikido as it is practiced today. It is unfortunate that it is divisive, but I believe that is unavoidable because it is so defining.I understand and respect Dan's unwillingness to post videos. What I do not like is Dan's use of anonymous testimonial authority to support his arguments. If Dan and his students/proteges/acolytes want to keep their training private, that is their privilege --- but it's not private anymore if he and they talk about it on an open forum, and even less so if he and they use "hints" of authority (6th dan, over 40 years of training, studied with Ueshiba M.) to support their positions.

Sincerely,

Jim

rob_liberti
09-04-2008, 06:02 PM
Well, it just a matter of degree. Nothing he is saying is inaccurate just not as detailed as you would prefer. It is as much detail as he can provide without speaking for people who did not give him explicit permission to do so. I see it as a respect thing as opposed to a sneaky thing.

Heck, I'm not too anonymous! You can call my house or visit me. When my son is sleeping I'll work out until I have to go to work the next morning.

You know me and I'm telling you such people exist and I know who they are. It's just not cool to put their names out for the public. I expect at least one of these people to do their own talking about Dan soon enough. We'll just have to wait for that to happen first.

Rob

rob_liberti
09-04-2008, 06:05 PM
I don't know but I'd bet if Erick Meade and his teacher were to all get together with Dan to demonstrate all of their individual abilities that Dan would consent to doing it on film.

Jim Sorrentino
09-05-2008, 12:17 PM
Hi Rob,

You know me and I'm telling you such people exist and I know who they are. It's just not cool to put their names out for the public. I expect at least one of these people to do their own talking about Dan soon enough. We'll just have to wait for that to happen first.I believe you --- but how sad it is that someone could achieve the rank of 6th dan in aikido, and yet not have the independence of character to state openly that he or she is exploring and researching the depths and boundaries of the art. One of the main reasons that I continue to study with Saotome-sensei is that he has always supported my efforts to improve my aikido, no matter where those efforts might lead me.

Sincerely,

Jim

Howard Popkin
09-05-2008, 12:47 PM
Hello,

If you may notice, I really only post here about seminars, fishing, beer drinking and the like, and this is why.

It is ridiculous to ask Dan or any other Daitoryu practicioner to post videos. Why you ask ?

Let me bottom line this for you guys:
1) If he did :
a) You wouldn't know what he was doing
b) You wouldn't be able to see what he was doing
c) It would look fake, as if the uke jumped across the room or smashed themselves into the floor.

Every person whom I have met says that Dan's skills are great. These techniques are just different then those in aikido.

For those of you who are going to yell at me, I said DIFFERENT. I didn't say better or worse. That is for you to decide.

First time I met Okamoto, he threw me literally across the room like he was swatting a fly. "All too easy" as Vader said.

First time I met Ole Kingston of Denmark(wheelchair bound), he beat the crap out of me for a few hours. I couldn't believe that someone on a wheelchair could do that. I had studied karate, just, and american jujitsu for 18 years at that point, in addition to 6 plus years in a different style of Daitoryu, but I still didn't know how to use body aiki.

Hence the practice.

Stop the nonsense arguing, go grab someone who says they know Aiki.

If it feels like what you are used to, they don't know it. If you fall into a black hole, get whiplash because the back of your head hit your spine, and it feels like your legs were kicked out from under you by a horse...all the while the thrower hasn't really moved or expended any energy....then practice with that person, alot :)

Oh, yea....one other thing......if they twist your wrist unti it screams pain.....different stuff. Not that they can't, they just usually choose not to.

No, I don't believe that you can explain it all with physics, diagrams, and chatter. You need to practice in a certain way, with certain posture, specific load bearing practice, relaxed movements, etc for a while to get this stuff.

One thing that I might disagree with most people in on is that while the solo training will surely make you progress faster, it is still a long hard road to get good at this stuff. These guys like Dan who are giving you a road map to it should be thanked, not yelled at by people who have never seen it or felt it. Most people have not really seen Aiki and shouldn't make judgments until they have.

Also, Dan WORKED his behind off to get where he is. Be thankful he wants to teach it. There are a few who don't want to teach it. They just beat up their uke's for their own practice so they get better while all you get good at is ukemi of one form or another.

Hope that helps.

Howard

P.S. The only reason you guys got this out of me is because the tuna aren't biting today :)

MM
09-05-2008, 12:49 PM
Hi Rob,

I believe you --- but how sad it is that someone could achieve the rank of 6th dan in aikido, and yet not have the independence of character to state openly that he or she is exploring and researching the depths and boundaries of the art. One of the main reasons that I continue to study with Saotome-sensei is that he has always supported my efforts to improve my aikido, no matter where those efforts might lead me.

Sincerely,

Jim

Uh, Jim. I read that and went OMG. Really. I'm not trying to be a wisea--, you know the phrase, but that came across as really condescending. Especially to anyone who has put in the time and effort to achieve 6th dan. That's an accomplishment few make. I really respect that. And to say that it's sad or that they don't have the independence of character? Egads, Jim.

These people just might be open about exploring the depths of the art, but just haven't talked with anyone about certain things. Or they might have personal reasons for withholding certain things. There's a thousand reasons, all of them good. In your quest to find out who these people are, I think you crossed a line Jim. At least the post reads that way to me. If I'm wrong, I certainly apologize. And I hope I'm wrong.

Mark

ChrisMoses
09-05-2008, 12:55 PM
If it feels like what you are used to, they don't know it. If you fall into a black hole, get whiplash because the back of your head hit your spine, and it feels like your legs were kicked out from under you by a horse...all the while the thrower hasn't really moved or expended any energy....then practice with that person, alot :)

My favorite part is when their eyes bug out :eek: then they do that blinky thing where they try to figure out what happened. Had a couple of those moments with a new (to me) person last night. Good times (and a good post Howard, thanks).

rob_liberti
09-05-2008, 01:29 PM
I simply think that some people are not leveraging the speed of the internet.

They also serve who stand and wait...

Rob

MM
09-05-2008, 01:32 PM
First time I met Ole Kingston of Denmark(wheelchair bound), he beat the crap out of me for a few hours. I couldn't believe that someone on a wheelchair could do that. I had studied karate, just, and american jujitsu for 18 years at that point, in addition to 6 plus years in a different style of Daitoryu, but I still didn't know how to use body aiki.


Howard,
There's a letter to the editor in Aiki News Issue 98 by Ole Kingston. It talks about his meeting Okamoto sensei.

Mark

Jim Sorrentino
09-05-2008, 02:30 PM
HI Mark,Uh, Jim. I read that and went OMG. Really. I'm not trying to be a wisea--, you know the phrase, but that came across as really condescending. Especially to anyone who has put in the time and effort to achieve 6th dan. That's an accomplishment few make. I really respect that. And to say that it's sad or that they don't have the independence of character? Egads, Jim.

These people just might be open about exploring the depths of the art, but just haven't talked with anyone about certain things. Or they might have personal reasons for withholding certain things. There's a thousand reasons, all of them good. In your quest to find out who these people are, I think you crossed a line Jim. At least the post reads that way to me. If I'm wrong, I certainly apologize. And I hope I'm wrong.You're wrong. According to the materials published by the International Aikikai Foundation, "The Hombu examines and appoints Shihan from among persons who are 6th dan or above, and who are proficient in practice and instructing." (See Article 16, http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/regulation/international.htm.) I will not cite to the many discussions of the meaning of "shihan", but I hope you will agree that at the very least, a shihan is someone who is deemed qualified to research the art. And while not all 6th dan are shihan, all shihan are (at minimum) 6th dan. So when Dan and Rob L. tell us that three aikido 6th dan are training with Dan, and it profoundly affected their practice, it gets my attention.

Argument from authority is not an effective tactic; it only works if it is unquestioned. If people choose to rely on the authority of others to support their arguments, then I will ask who these authorities are. As I said to Rob, I respect people's privacy. But that privacy disappears when someone on an open forum cites an anonymous authority to support an argument. If these people want to keep their training private, it's really quite simple for them to say, "Look, please do not mention that I train with you." It would be a narrow and self-serving method of honoring that request if the person training them does not reveal their names, but does state a significant identifying fact about them, like their high rank.

And I'm not being condescending to these people. As I understand it, an aikido 6th dan has a responsibility to the art to explore it, develop it, and interpret it. If the 6th dan chooses to do that privately, that is his or her business. But if the 6th dan publicly lends the authority of his or her rank to that effort, while otherwise remaining anonymous, then I will ask why someone who has achieved a certain level of independence doesn't act accordingly.

I accept your apology. :)

Sincerely,

Jim

Howard Popkin
09-05-2008, 02:44 PM
Mark,

Thanks. I have that letter :)

Chris,

Cool isn't it :) I love it when they are about a foot taller then you. It makes it that much better.

Be back up your way in November, just after Thanksgiving, I think.

Hope to see you again. Dinner was a good time !

Howie

rob_liberti
09-05-2008, 03:20 PM
"a narrow and self-serving method of honoring that request" is fine by me... I still say just hold on and wait a little longer...

I am actually not aware of 3 6th dans, just 1, and some of the other people who were anonymously mentioned. But that shouldn't matter so much. I have not seen a lie yet. I assume the truth is being told until I have proof otherwise.

Rob

DH
09-05-2008, 07:40 PM
Jim
I never said three 6th dan are training with me.
I said three 6th dans have experienced the results of this training method. I don't mind your antagonism. but you scrupulously insinuate there is dishonesty,fine. You don't like me citing anonymous sources, fine too. WE ALL GET IT...

I still find it odd that you are even surprised by the statement though- considering your recent experiences. Do you see any 6th dan you can think of that can handle a serious and equally trained (time-in) MMA adept? Name please____________________.
Do you think -you- or an Aikido teacher you know can handle Ark while they use aikido?
Do you think any Aikidoka you know can handle me while they use aikido?
Name please________________
I am looking for some one you know, anyone you know -in Aikido- who can handle someone who trains internal and trains MMA while they just use Aikido as a defense. Name____________________.

And if you have a name- what percentage of Aikido do you suppose that person represents? How small a percentage are we willing to tolerate from you in an argument before we suggest you concede the point?

If not, whats the beef? Three of the teachers I mentioned were quite undone and two are training to learn these skills. With different people. Which until they state so publicly are no ones business.
Again the point is the training, not the people
I cite them to discuss the point. Enough folks- including the students of those teachers-really don't care that you think I'm a liar. The point is being made anyway and folks are going out to train with different men willing to teach this.
The reason? Who cares about the levels reached by others? We have all seen great MA ers, so what!
They are after their own.

.

DH
09-05-2008, 07:43 PM
Guys, can you talk about your training and just leave me out of it. Share your opinions and view if you must, but I am increasingly uncomfortable with seeing references to me in so many threads. Much less a thread with my name in the title. Yuck!
I tell folks in private and in public to go test everywhere-you're not conveying that message all too well here.
How about talking about "the idea." The idea that there is a training method for internal power-aiki- that is put forth by Ark, Mike, Ushiro, and is in ICMA, Daito ryu etc?
That's the real point isn't it? To see it beyond a singular person. I keep saying it over and over. Go out and test, train, study, train some more. Don't EVER buy into just one guy.

Buck
09-06-2008, 12:25 AM
It is ridiculous to ask Dan ... to post videos.



If a man hangs a sign publically saying he can improve your golf swing, he has the informercial magic to do it, and a bunch guys say yea, we heard, and a few say, yea we know, you say, OK show me. You say, let's see it. But, the guy who is selling you that pitch says no I am not going to show to you. What are you going to think?

What are you going to think of the guys who back him up?

Why is it so difficult to get this guy to do what he should, what is right, why all the resistance and excuses not too?

I have already wrote him off. I don't care how good other people say he is, I don't care if Dr. Phil gives him the OK. We have this thing in society, it as very strong thing that exists on the street to the boardroom, it is called, let's see what you got. If you don't show it, your written-off. No excuses. I don't make the rules.

Basically, if the guy is going to play street cup and ball, and play uses political campaign strategies spin that would rival RNC and the DNC on the net, he isn't going to get my vote. If you can back up what you say fine. If you can't then start awalking. But we will not know ever will, rumors of mysterious abilities are so intriguing, and fun too. If he isn't going to show his cards this thread should be closed, there is no reason to continue play cat and mouse. As the saying goes, either put up, or shut up. It's nothing person it is just how society "rolls."

I really think we need to be brought back to the reality of our society.

rob_liberti
09-06-2008, 05:58 AM
Following all of the norms in society is clearly the best approach to being "normal". When you are working on becoming "exceptional", following norms doesn't typically work so well - so it seems to me a silly point you are making given the context, but...

I was reading Dirk Gently again recently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Gently's_Holistic_Detective_Agency
It's a silly book and all, but it struck me that maybe the way Dirk convinced people that he was psychic is the best way. He just continuously denied it while seeming to display such abilities.

(The difference here is that aiki training is an easily verifiable thing - you just usually have to travel to some degree to experience it yourself.) But I think I'm going to try Drik's approach from now on myself.

So good for you, Buck. I think that is the best approach for you and anyone else who feels entitled to videos of a specific person doing aiki.

My new position to such people is: "there is no such thing as aiki and no special training to attain it - let's just work out together." Please by all means write this "aiki nonsense" off - and when you get ahold of someone who is so obviously moving very differently and effectively - please attribute it to being more of a "Michael Jordan" to aikido than any _completely made up training method_.

Further, I strenuously deny that I am going anywhere today to go train such a made up training method all day long and that I will be working on what I learn at home every chance I get for hours and hours.

If we should ever meet, the reason why I am moving so differently and effectively is that I was outside washing my car and a golden cloud surrounded me...

Rob

MM
09-06-2008, 07:23 AM
Following all of the norms in society is clearly the best approach to being "normal". When you are working on becoming "exceptional", following norms doesn't typically work so well - so it seems to me a silly point you are making given the context, but...

I was reading Dirk Gently again recently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Gently's_Holistic_Detective_Agency
It's a silly book and all, but it struck me that maybe the way Dirk convinced people that he was psychic is the best way. He just continuously denied it while seeming to display such abilities.

(The difference here is that aiki training is an easily verifiable thing - you just usually have to travel to some degree to experience it yourself.) But I think I'm going to try Drik's approach from now on myself.

So good for you, Buck. I think that is the best approach for you and anyone else who feels entitled to videos of a specific person doing aiki.

My new position to such people is: "there is no such thing as aiki and no special training to attain it - let's just work out together." Please by all means write this "aiki nonsense" off - and when you get ahold of someone who is so obviously moving very differently and effectively - please attribute it to being more of a "Michael Jordan" to aikido than any _completely made up training method_.

Further, I strenuously deny that I am going anywhere today to go train such a made up training method all day long and that I will be working on what I learn at home every chance I get for hours and hours.

If we should ever meet, the reason why I am moving so differently and effectively is that I was outside washing my car and a golden cloud surrounded me...

Rob

LOL! I thought it was a silver cloud with golden farts?

Buck
09-06-2008, 09:56 AM
All right, I sounded rude and impolite, the love of cheap beer tends to...well turns off the self- post checker. I wasn't fair, I admit. It really isn't the way I feel as an Aikidoka should sound or the aggressive tone I used did earlier.

Allow me a second chance to say what I feel in a better way. I don't know Dan or anyone else associated with him. Dan pretty much said his Aiki...do will make an ineffective Aikido effective, even effective against grapplers etc. He was going to enlighten all Aikido teachers on his aiki. He said too that he had the abilities of O'Sensei. His tone was that he was the savior of a lost Aikido. I felt he slapped Aikido in the face in the house of Aikido, and in angered me. Because of that I wanted him to "put up or shut up." I thought it was cowardly of him to gather his posse to sit behind computers and take pot shots at Aikido. I did take it personally. I felt Aikido was the butt of one big nasty cruel joke by arrogant _______ (fill in the blank).

I understand those who say that Dan increased their skill, but I don't know these people or their experience. I have never seen these people before or after Dan's instruction or Dan's skill. It is very reasonable to take the position on this that I have. I have nothing to judge, evaluate, or analyze, I don't have a reasonable go-by. I don't think it is unreasonable to take this angle on Dan and his group. I can't blindly accept anything reasonably something that someone or a group says without being able to experience it. I was never good at believing in religions or cults where it be God, gods, aliens, aiki/ki being special super-natural forces, etc. I have to see it, experience it, etc. For me if someone say it they have to back it up with evidence, proof, etc. It isn't possible for me to just accept it because someone said it was real. I don't believe in ghosts or vampires etc because someone says they do and they have seen it. I am not willing to drink the Kool-aid, that is just the kind of person I am.

I just got a bit pissy on how I said things and that is not really what I think Aikido is about.

Upyu
09-06-2008, 11:01 AM
It isn't possible for me to just accept it because someone said it was real. I don't believe in ghosts or vampires etc because someone says they do and they have seen it. I am not willing to drink the Kool-aid, that is just the kind of person I am.

I just got a bit pissy on how I said things and that is not really what I think Aikido is about.

Err...then why even have an opinion until you meet the guy?
Dan isn't the only one with these skills running around. Just go and look for someone that's been named as having the skills. Generally most people get that something's different once they've been tossed around. That part at least, isnt rocket science.

rob_liberti
09-06-2008, 05:13 PM
There is a video of Chen Bing displaying aiki. Watch the videos in that thread. What's the problem?

Rob

DH
09-06-2008, 10:00 PM
Phil
Exaggeration and misquotes rarely serve their purpose. This isn't presidential politics. There is hardly a single statement in your post that is accurate.
Since your entire post is confrontation based on hurt feelings and anger you have- all based on a false premise- the only thing left for me to do is either question your intentions or your cognitive capabilities.

There is no point in arguing false assertions. Please re-read my statements and posts. Then if you choose to collect yourself and address the discussion in a more reasonable manner I may choose to engage in an intelligent dialogue with you.
Other than that I'll let your posts speak for themselves.

gdandscompserv
09-07-2008, 12:13 AM
Doka of the day here:
The spiritual essence of the Heavens and Earth,
Congealing becomes the Way of the Cross-Shape "+".
Harmony and Joy make up the Floating Bridge
That binds this world together.
- Morihei Ueshiba

Hmmm...the way of the cross-shape huh?

phitruong
09-08-2008, 11:43 AM
Let me bottom line this for you guys:
1) If he did :
a) You wouldn't know what he was doing
b) You wouldn't be able to see what he was doing
c) It would look fake, as if the uke jumped across the room or smashed themselves into the floor.

If it feels like what you are used to, they don't know it. If you fall into a black hole, get whiplash because the back of your head hit your spine, and it feels like your legs were kicked out from under you by a horse...all the while the thrower hasn't really moved or expended any energy....then practice with that person, alot :)

Also, Dan WORKED his behind off to get where he is. Be thankful he wants to teach it. There are a few who don't want to teach it. They just beat up their uke's for their own practice so they get better while all you get good at is ukemi of one form or another.

Hope that helps.

Howard

P.S. The only reason you guys got this out of me is because the tuna aren't biting today :)

Second what Howie said on video.

I can't believe you brought a horse with you. I remembered the getting kicked feeling, but didn't realize you brought helper. next time, I have to call in animal control first. :freaky:

Howie, have you try to use some of the aikido folks as bait (not me of course), they might get the tuna to bite? :D

DH
09-08-2008, 12:08 PM
Hi Rob,

I believe you --- but how sad it is that someone could achieve the rank of 6th dan in aikido, and yet not have the independence of character to state openly that he or she is exploring and researching the depths and boundaries of the art. One of the main reasons that I continue to study with Saotome-sensei is that he has always supported my efforts to improve my aikido, no matter where those efforts might lead me.

Sincerely,

Jim

This a bit odd to me Jim. I don't think you should be making judgments of character now about yet another person.
By now now you know a few of the people I am discussing. One of them made several comments here. The others have chosen not to. I accept your repeated criticisms of me as nicely as I can manage but is it really fair to judge people who don't participate here?
Put it on me-not them.
One of these teachers made it abundantly clear that as he travels this winter teaching seminars he intends to openly discuss what he has experienced here with people in aikido, more importantly other teachers who are friends of his.
I intend on letting him speak for himself in a manner that he feels is more credible for him. He knows we write about it here on aikiweb. He expressed to me that not much is accomplished in this format. I pointed out- with a wink...."it got you here." To which he smiled.

This training, and resultant conversations have been in depth is much more relaxed and nice, and good friends are continually being made with those in your art. I continue to celebrate that and do what I can within my own limits to share various experiences we are having on this end.

DH
09-08-2008, 12:12 PM
Hello,

If you may notice, I really only post here about seminars, fishing, beer drinking and the like, and this is why.

It is ridiculous to ask Dan or any other Daitoryu practicioner to post videos. Why you ask ?

Let me bottom line this for you guys:
1) If he did :
a) You wouldn't know what he was doing
b) You wouldn't be able to see what he was doing
c) It would look fake, as if the uke jumped across the room or smashed themselves into the floor.

Every person whom I have met says that Dan's skills are great. These techniques are just different then those in aikido.

For those of you who are going to yell at me, I said DIFFERENT. I didn't say better or worse. That is for you to decide.

First time I met Okamoto, he threw me literally across the room like he was swatting a fly. "All too easy" as Vader said.

First time I met Ole Kingston of Denmark(wheelchair bound), he beat the crap out of me for a few hours. I couldn't believe that someone on a wheelchair could do that. I had studied karate, just, and american jujitsu for 18 years at that point, in addition to 6 plus years in a different style of Daitoryu, but I still didn't know how to use body aiki.

Hence the practice.

Stop the nonsense arguing, go grab someone who says they know Aiki.

If it feels like what you are used to, they don't know it. If you fall into a black hole, get whiplash because the back of your head hit your spine, and it feels like your legs were kicked out from under you by a horse...all the while the thrower hasn't really moved or expended any energy....then practice with that person, alot :)

Oh, yea....one other thing......if they twist your wrist unti it screams pain.....different stuff. Not that they can't, they just usually choose not to.

No, I don't believe that you can explain it all with physics, diagrams, and chatter. You need to practice in a certain way, with certain posture, specific load bearing practice, relaxed movements, etc for a while to get this stuff.

One thing that I might disagree with most people in on is that while the solo training will surely make you progress faster, it is still a long hard road to get good at this stuff. These guys like Dan who are giving you a road map to it should be thanked, not yelled at by people who have never seen it or felt it. Most people have not really seen Aiki and shouldn't make judgments until they have.

Also, Dan WORKED his behind off to get where he is. Be thankful he wants to teach it. There are a few who don't want to teach it. They just beat up their uke's for their own practice so they get better while all you get good at is ukemi of one form or another.

Hope that helps.

Howard

P.S. The only reason you guys got this out of me is because the tuna aren't biting today :)

Hey!!!I didn't even catch that post.
Gee how could it POSSIBLY happen that we see eye to eye.
What an odd, totally out of the blue occurance.
How strange!
Who could these other Daito ryu teachers be that don't teach!!
How can you know these things?
I wonder why that is? :D

Back to my grilled swordfish

MM
09-08-2008, 12:36 PM
Hey!!!I didn't even catch that post.
Gee how could it POSSIBLY happen that we see eye to eye.
What an odd, totally out of the blue occurance.
How strange!
Who could these other Daito ryu teachers be that don't teach!!
How can you know these things?
I wonder why that is? :D

Back to my grilled swordfish

Well, I guess you weren't fishing through the posts well enough. As you can sea, it didn't net you anything. Could have been a red herring, I suppose. And no, I'm not trolling for jokes. Just hooked on stupid puns and sinking fast. I'll just sail on by, now. No need to thank me, the scales are balanced. Guess, I'm fin-ished. I know some were waiting for that with baited breath. Yeah, yeah, I'm finally at the tail end of things. No, really. :D

Patrick Hutchinson
09-08-2008, 12:51 PM
I had a whale of a time at Dan's. Wait, that's a mammal...

DH
09-08-2008, 01:06 PM
Even if you were a little "pushy":D Hah!

But then I bet you thought I was going to fall for that...
hook, line, and sinker.

Okay, okay... I know when I am n the presence of my betters.

thisisnotreal
09-10-2008, 09:06 PM
Hi.
I just wanted to follow up on what Howie said.

I'm thinking this kind of a clip must've been what Howard meant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4tocGW15Q&feature=related

The 'uke' is seriously disrupted. His head snaps back.
The punch was nothing.(Was it?)


What could this guy do if he wound up?

And yeah. Video just raises more questions than answers.
And it does *look* fake.

my 0.02$

josh

gdandscompserv
09-10-2008, 09:59 PM
Hi.
I just wanted to follow up on what Howie said.

I'm thinking this kind of a clip must've been what Howard meant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4tocGW15Q&feature=related

The 'uke' is seriously disrupted. His head snaps back.
The punch was nothing.(Was it?)

What could this guy do if he wound up?

And yeah. Video just raises more questions than answers.
And it does *look* fake.

my 0.02$

josh
Yeah it does
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELCP6l0iGw&feature=related