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deathlinenetworks
08-26-2008, 10:56 AM
just wondering. is your dojo a non-profit organisation?

Ketsan
08-26-2008, 11:51 AM
just wondering. is your dojo a non-profit organisation?

Yep.

Marc Abrams
08-26-2008, 12:51 PM
Shin-Budo Kai in New York City is a not-for-profit entity.

Marc Abrams

Larry Cuvin
08-26-2008, 01:50 PM
Yes, Oregon Ki Society is non-profit organization.

Eric Webber
08-26-2008, 09:10 PM
Aikido West Reading (Pa) is not-for-profit.

grondahl
08-27-2008, 03:47 AM
Yes. I think that all aikido dojos that Im aware of in Sweden are non-profit (maybe one exeption).

Enrique Antonio Reyes
08-27-2008, 05:45 AM
There are a mixture of Non-profit and for profit dojos here in the Philippines.

I notice that Not-for-profit dojos are usually affiliated with Hombu and For-profit dojos are usually independent.

Does anyone have a similar observation?

One-Aiki,

Iking

Walter Martindale
08-27-2008, 06:07 AM
Profit? What's that?

crbateman
08-27-2008, 07:04 AM
I think the majority of the dojos are non-profit, whether set up accordingly or not. I think it just works out that way... :o

Jesse Legon
08-27-2008, 07:39 AM
Profit? What's that?

Haha! :D

Profit is the smidge of surplus money a club has until it spends it on new weapons/mats/trips etc.

Mary Eastland
08-27-2008, 08:14 AM
We are not non profit. I would say we are break even. ;o)
Mary

jennifer paige smith
08-28-2008, 10:47 AM
No

aikidoc
08-28-2008, 06:45 PM
Most modern dojos that don't give away ranks are "non-profit".

Goye
08-29-2008, 12:26 PM
Yep!!

Walter Martindale
08-30-2008, 02:41 AM
Haha! :D

Profit is the smidge of surplus money a club has until it spends it on new weapons/mats/trips etc.

Dojos I've been involved in had to be in established buildings, or they've had pretty major cash input from their chief instructor(s). (I've never had any cash to contribute) Generally speaking, the accounts have usually been in parentheses (negative). Frankly I don't know how most of them survive unless they're sponsored by a university or something (I've also been the treasurer of a dojo - it was definitely non-profit)
Cheers.
W

DH
08-30-2008, 07:27 AM
Taught in a church for free
I taught in a dojo (mostly judo) as one of five teachers-I taught jujutsu. While having the largest student base-I gave all the money to the main teacher who rented the space-till I quit.
Then taught out of my house for free
I now host visitors in a barn (since 1997) on my property for free while covering all the costs; mats, heat, lights, air conditioning etc.
I figure if someone hands me about fifty grand-I might reach the status of ...non profit.

Shannon Frye
08-30-2008, 12:15 PM
I think that, around here at least, being "non-profit" simply means that you filed the paperwork and found a awy around some taxes. We have bunches of so called "non-profits" around here (other than aiki) that charge just as much or more than other dojos. They'll stick it to you regarding fees, but are quick to point out their "non-profit" status.

Anymore, what does being licensed and registered as a "non-profit" really mean?

Shannon

jennifer paige smith
08-31-2008, 10:45 AM
For me the question is who do non-profits profit?

Shannon Frye
08-31-2008, 11:42 AM
For me the question is who do non-profits profit?

Good question. Here, I'd say mostly the people who own/run the dojo. For example, we have a dojo near me (I formerly attended) that has a youth sparring team. They travel to different tournaments as a team. The "dojo" is primarily a day care center during the day, and an afterschool program (still daycare) when they pick up the kids at their schools. They transport the kids o the dojo, run a 1 hour class, then give snack and homework assistance.

They claim that their "profits" go towards supporting the sparring team. Yet they make the parents pay for all expenses. All equipment must be purchased through the dojo (at a profit). Fun raisers are held throughout the year to raise more money for the "team".

They even have issued tax exempt statements, so their customers can get a tax deduction for the money they paid, under the guise of "non-profit".

They have 20-30 students (children), and are raking in money hand over fist. But they are non profit. I just don't get it.

Not knocking anyone with that status, but realy what does it mean to be non-profit? What benefits are there to being registered as non-profit? What requirements are there?

Shannon

gdandscompserv
08-31-2008, 03:41 PM
Not knocking anyone with that status, but realy what does it mean to be non-profit? What benefits are there to being registered as non-profit? What requirements are there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)

Fred Little
08-31-2008, 09:36 PM
Not knocking anyone with that status, but realy what does it mean to be non-profit? What benefits are there to being registered as non-profit? What requirements are there?Shannon

It generally means that:

1) No investor has an ownership interest in the enterprise and no investor receives dividends on the investment.

2) A not-for-profit may have a positive cash flow.

3) Certain government paperwork (state or federal) has been filed certifying these and other conditions

It does not mean that:

1) Nobody gets paid

2) That those who get paid get paid less than they would in a for-profit enterprise.

3) That money given is tax-deductible.

Some forms of grants to not-for-profits will actually require that all services provided for the not-for-profit are compensated at prevailing rates.

What the deal is in relation to each of these depends on what kind of legal "not-for-profit" status the entity has.

But in almost every case, "not-for-profit" does not mean that all labor is volunteer and nobody is getting paid. It's a good bet that if an organization goes ahead and files the paperwork, somebody is getting expenses paid at a minimum.

Grist for the mill.

FL

Chuck Clark
09-01-2008, 12:11 AM
Being not-for-profit also means that you're a public corporation and are subject to laws you may not be aware of... look before you leap.

Keith Larman
09-01-2008, 12:32 AM
...But in almost every case, "not-for-profit" does not mean that all labor is volunteer and nobody is getting paid. It's a good bet that if an organization goes ahead and files the paperwork, somebody is getting expenses paid at a minimum.

Grist for the mill.

FL

To help make this point I had an interesting experience a few years ago.

I help a non-profit dog training group (they provide dog training via a city program to pay for permits to allow the members a place to do their training for AKC showing). This small non-profit puts on one dog show a year. The club had been in doing this as a non-profit in the same place for over 60 years in the City of Pasadena. Everyone volunteers their time. Most of the money the group makes goes to etiher support the show they put on, pay for the permits, and also a major portion of fees go to the city. What's left over basically covers expenses. They also do volunteer stuff for city sponsored programs. And try to send a check to the local Humane Society if anything is left in the account at the end of the year.

Anyway, a bunch of years back a non-profit "kidspace" (patent pending, trademark, etc.) moved into the area. Cool. Took my kid as a matter of fact. One year they decided they wanted to put on an event the same weekend as ours in the same location. Never mind we'd been doing it on that same weekend for over 60 years... So there was a conflict. Kidspace wouldn't budge because they wanted to do their thing so the city arranged a meeting at the kidspace offices. So here I go with a club member to have this meeting to try to work something out. The offices are a wonderful building on the same premises. One wall was solid glass. Very cool! The carpet is lush and lovely. The furniture and tables in the meeting room are high grade wood. Computers on every desk as we came in. And lots of enthusiastic young people running around, most full time employees.

We had our meeting and they basically wouldn't budge. The lovely woman made a comment saying that they should be able to have their event because they're a non-profit after all. I pointed out that we were too. I also pointed out that the furniture and decorating in the building could have paid for a small businesses' operating expenses for a year...

As we were leaving the armored truck pulled up to collect the day's receipts. One city worker I was chatting with as we watched this in the parking lot said he thinks that on weekends they come twice...

And walking through the lot I saw that full time employee I had been speaking to in the building along with another employee. Both got into very nice luxury cars and drove away. I learned a lot about non-profits that day...

Now I don't mean this as a rag against Kidspace. Okay, maybe a little. It was jarring to say the least. And unpleasant. But the point is that they are non-profit as well. And they enjoy considerable "support" from major corporations and donors. And I'm sure they do good work although they treated us like warmed over pond scum for daring to complicate their perceived good works. 900-pound gorilla was the phrase used by one of the city personnel who happened to be there. However, as non-profits they are allowed to have offices, furnish them, spend wildly, pay salaries, and do pretty much everything a normal business does except show a profit that goes out as dividends or the like.

Lots of people are making lots of money. And they have really nice offices. And really a primo location subsidized greatly by the local government (read that paid for by the taxpayers).

But they are non-profit.

Yeah, I got a lot more cynical that day...

jennifer paige smith
09-01-2008, 03:22 PM
Well, my question was rhetorical, I admit. And my point is that non-profit doesn't necessarily make you a corporation doing good works. It is a corporate distinction with all the potential pitfalls and corruption to be found in a corporate environment.
Many believe 'non-profit- means providing for the benefit of others first. That would be my definition of Service, not my definition of non-profit.
Having said that, many non-profits do amazing work, just as do many private businesses.

Keith Larman
09-01-2008, 05:33 PM
For some deciding to become a non-profit is oddly enough a calculated business decision. Salaries can still be paid, bonuses given, etc.

For many groups being a non-profit is exactly a result them being good people trying to do good things. But sometimes even good things grow into bureaucracies that take on a life of their own and become just as much about self-preservation and enrichment "in order to continue to do good".

I've also had the great honor of having worked for a variety of charities in various capacities. Many are very good things. Some are more efficient than others. And some, well, it is amazing how many people have their hands out that don't really seem to be related to the overt mission of the charity...

So when it comes to dojo, well, I stopped worrying about non-profit vs. for profit a long time ago. Non-profit status makes sense in many cases when classes are held out of things like city owned facilities. Or church activity rooms. Or things like that. But if you're talking about a larger, more robust establishment with a dedicated space and more involved instruction, non-profit seems to make less sense. And frankly I think those who make the effort to be full-time instructors and offer up a professional service with consistent hours, well, I don't begrudge them making a profit.

And all that said... You should see the salaries many executives of non-profit charities pull down...

So to me it makes little difference. As long as it is above board either way it just doesn't matter to me.

jennifer paige smith
09-02-2008, 09:28 AM
For some deciding to become a non-profit is oddly enough a calculated business decision. Salaries can still be paid, bonuses given, etc.

So to me it makes little difference. As long as it is above board either way it just doesn't matter to me.

I don't find this odd in the least. It is exactly what a non-profit distinction is..a business decision. And, as in all things, one should discern situations case by case, if it is of interest or concern on a moral or ideological level.

I couldn't agree more about being above board in one's intentions and practices. As a 'professional educator' in the martial dicipline, I am sometimes asked to offer my teaching and lecturing services for free to non-profits. I don't do it simply because of that status, it isn't enough justification for free teaching in seminars where people are being charged good money and that money is not specifically earmarked for a cause beyond the perpetuation of the organization itself.

That is my rough line for now.

Keith Larman
09-02-2008, 10:02 AM
Yeah, I didn't word that all that well. Basically my point was two things. One is the common misconception of a non-profit is that it is somehow channeling all of its resources into some "good thing". Basically a charity, church, etc. The other is the misconception that the employees do what they for very little. Neither is necessarily true.

And I'm certainly not saying it is a bad thing either in many cases.

Anyway, the point being that being a non-profit tends to carry a "gloss" of nobility along with it that doesn't necessarily really reflect reality.

The other side of the coin is that non-profits still have to pay all the various payroll taxes. And since in my experience many aikido dojo that I know of that don't have non-profit status are often pretty close to making no profit as it is, well, it doesn't seem to me it makes much difference if they're for profit or non-profit. The end result is the same. Just different paperwork.

My $.02.

jennifer paige smith
09-02-2008, 11:48 AM
I thought you did a great job.
Thanks,
Jen

Walter Martindale
09-02-2008, 03:10 PM
FWIW
Fred Little's precis of not-for-profit characteristics is good.
I've been employed by "not for profit" organisations almost continuously since 1991. Present employer has about 10 full time staff, several other part time and fixed term contract staff, is funded largely from government grants, "charitable trust" grants, and commercial sponsors.
Most Aikido dojo I've been at were definitely not-for-profit, where sensei do the teaching so that they'll have people with whom to practice in their home towns when they grow up and disperse from their original dojo or when they inherit the dojo from the previous sensei, whether that's through retirement, succession through the sensei passing away, or whatever - fees at these dojos barely cover operating costs, and they're housed in community centres, churches, private homes, but rarely in rent-paying or free-hold properties.
W

Mato-san
09-03-2008, 07:13 AM
This thread should be placed in the Aikido will leave you in debt for ever negative section.

Dan O'Day
09-03-2008, 08:56 PM
Does anyone know whether all non-profits, like churches, get a free ride on property taxes?

Property taxes can be a big chunk of change. And the revenue collected covers a fair number of local and important services.

Those who don't pay property tax, regardless of whatever good works they may be doing, are definitely getting full subsidies paid for by the rest of the folks in a given locale.

That's never seemed right to me. Seeing as I could just start a Church of the Retired Deadhead and save $6,000.00 a year. Pull in some tax free big cash over the web and/or a cable channel. Mass up the dough and form a political action lobbying group and get some legislation written that favors the doctrine of the Gospels of the Retired Deadheads and by golly...oh well, no way...that could never happen in America.

In general, whther or not a dojo is a 501C makes no difference to me ( except for the property tax deal - I think all property owners ought pay it period ). As has been said here many times, nobody makes alot of money through aikido training.

Interesting how entities which begin with a clear and focused message and then struggle financially tend to keep their focus and message very clear. Start throwing the big bucks in and it won't be long before purpose becomes a murky vision.

Fred Little
09-03-2008, 10:06 PM
Does anyone know whether all non-profits, like churches, get a free ride on property taxes?

. Seeing as I could just start a Church of the Retired Deadhead and save $6,000.00 a year.

Minneapolis has fairly liberal laws in this regard, and the answer according to the city's website is (http://www.ci.mpls.mn.us/assessor/tax-relief.asp):

Probably not, unless you are an exceptionally motivated and detail-oriented Retired Deadhead with uncommon persistence:

What is, and how do I apply for, a non-profit or 501(c)(3) property tax exemption?

Organizations seeking 501(c)(3) exemption must file an exempt application for each parcel that may qualify. In order to receive exempt status, there must be a concurrence of ownership and use. The parcel must be used solely for the specified purpose for which the institution received its 501(c)(3) charter. This means that if the land, its improvements, or any part thereof is not used in accordance with stated purposes, the exemption will be reviewed and the ineligible property or portion of the property will be assessed for property taxation purposes. In accordance with Minnesota statutes, "Upon written request of the assessor, the taxpayer filing a statement of exemption shall make available to the assessor all books and records relating to the ownership or use of the property which are reasonably necessary to verify that the property qualifies for exemption."
501(c)(3) Applicant must provide proof to establish the following:

* Ownership - Deed and date (property owned prior to July 1 may qualify for exemption in the current assessment year)
* Use - Descriptions: pamphlets, brochures, letter explaining the function of the entity and how the property is being used
* 501(C)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code - Federal Certification of Non-Profit or Exempt Status from Federal Income Taxes
* Articles of Incorporation - Eventuality of Corporate Dissolution
* Synopsis of Organizational Function - Mission Statement and Organizational Purpose; Who are your clients?
* Minnesota Form 990 Income Tax Return - Who pays for the services provided by the organization?
* Occupants - Tenant lists, rent roles, outlining square footage, etc
* Property Tax Application -- a document completed by applicant and submitted with supporting documentation for exemption.

Emphasis added.

Best,

FL