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TAnderson
08-15-2008, 02:58 PM
Nice clip of Chen Bing at a recent seminar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&feature=related

Tim Anderson

Dan Austin
08-15-2008, 11:21 PM
Nice clip of Chen Bing at a recent seminar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&feature=related

Tim Anderson

Wow. It says elsewhere that Chen Bing weighs 150 lbs, and he looks quite skinny in his other videos. The guy he's grappling with looks to be solidly over 200 lbs. Color me impressed.

Aikibu
08-16-2008, 11:30 AM
Nice clip of Chen Bing at a recent seminar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&feature=related

Tim Anderson

Very cool Thanks. Unlike most of these this one appears to demonstrate the real power of IMA.

William Hazen

mjchip
08-17-2008, 03:17 PM
To say that I'm impressed would be an understatement. Wow.

Mark

Hebrew Hammer
08-18-2008, 12:31 AM
I've watched it several times looking to 'see' where all that power came from...I might have to look into Tai Chi or some other Chinese Internal art...I've heard stories about this art but its quite different seeing it on film.

Alfonso
08-18-2008, 11:10 AM
Awesome

DH
08-20-2008, 11:12 AM
Here's another one from the same seminar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NznIJGakGJw
Like Dan A. said-note the weight difference.
Although he was only demonstrating potentials (the grappler is moving like a stiff crash test dummy) the power displayed never-the-less speaks for itself. I am so glad to see him and guys like Joe Chen playing, in a manner that demonstrates "classical power" while speaking to a more modern active audience.

gdandscompserv
08-21-2008, 10:03 AM
Why does Chen spend time manipulating his 'oppenent' before throwing him? (if that's what he's doing) Since the power is obviously there, why doesn't he just toss him upon contact?

DH
08-21-2008, 10:34 AM
Because for the most part throwing a grappler at first touch is by and large B.S.!
Wth a trained grappler; who is gong to move, adjust and change with every pulse he can feel or create himself-you grab whatcha can, when ya can. It can be fast, it can take some work. And I'd suggest never, ever assuming they are meat heads with flexed muscle.
Personally I think experienced Judo/jujutsu/wrestlers are the most underplayed MA'ers in the world. On any given day I'd put money on them against anyone.
I put the Chen clip #3 up is to show potentials. I think the kid looks good. I also thought the grappler wasn't doing much at all. If you go to you tube and look at push hands #1, and #2 you will se he was more or less doing the same thing over and over. In #3 he showed the set up and the throw. It's a demo, it ain't a fight..

Personally, I continue to separate the arguments ; MMA , and internal power as I did the former before the later, and remain a fan of both. I'm a broken record that way.
1. One side of me talks about internal power / aiki and that it is the best potential in the world in the martial arts. And it is thee single greatest advantage failing all else.
2. The other side of me would bet against an "internal art" up against a good MMA guy. As I said while it is a massive advantage, it can be overcome. One needs to be level headed about these things.

So why not marry the two?

BK Barker
08-21-2008, 10:55 AM
Because for the most part throwing a grappler at first touch is by and large B.S.!
Wth a trained grappler; who is gong to move, adjust and change with every pulse he can feel or create himself-you grab whatcha can, when ya can. It can be fast, it can take some work. And I'd suggest never, ever assuming they are meat heads with flexed muscle.
Personally I think experienced Judo/jujutsu/wrestlers are the most underplayed MA'ers in the world. On any given day I'd put money on them against anyone.
I put the Chen clip #3 up is to show potentials. I think the kid looks good. I also thought the grappler wasn't doing much at all. If you go to you tube and look at push hands #1, and #2 you will se he was more or less doing the same thing over and over. In #3 he showed the set up and the throw. It's a demo, it ain't a fight..

Personally, I continue to separate the arguments ; MMA , and internal power as I did the former before the later, and remain a fan of both. I'm a broken record that way.
1. One side of me talks about internal power / aiki and that it is the best potential in the world in the martial arts. And it is thee single greatest advantage failing all else.
2. The other side of me would bet against an "internal art" up against a good MMA guy. As I said while it is a massive advantage, it can be overcome. One needs to be level headed about these things.

So why not marry the two?

I don't know why.... but I really like and agree with your posts Dan... :rolleyes:

Officially Signed by.... "TiltRight"...:D

gdandscompserv
08-21-2008, 11:02 AM
Because for the most part throwing a grappler at first touch is by and large B.S.!
Wth a trained grappler; who is gong to move, adjust and change with every pulse he can feel or create himself-you grab whatcha can, when ya can. It can be fast, it can take some work. And I'd suggest never, ever assuming they are meat heads with flexed muscle.
Thanks for the response Dan. Usually you just ignore me. :D
I'm really trying to get a handle on the idea and potential of internal power, thus my many ignorant questions. Please be patient with me.
I was in my younger days a grappler and couldn't agree with you more concerning the difficulty in throwing a well trained grappler. I have however, been thrown quite speedily by other, more skilled grapplers. Almost upon contact. I don't know if it was by internal power or not. I'm guessing you would probably be able to toss me upon contact, hence my question. Are there those that you can toss upon contact and others that take longer to "feel' out?

DH
08-21-2008, 11:05 AM
I don't know why.... but I really like and agree with your posts Dan... :rolleyes:

Officially Signed by.... "TiltRight"...:D

Hey!!!
Well its hard to discuss two such deverse topics with both groups who think the other is less than. Sort of like trying to discuss it with a fellow with sticks, or knives, or swords for that matter.;)

DH
08-21-2008, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the response Dan. Usually you just ignore me. :D
I'm really trying to get a handle on the idea and potential of internal power, thus my many ignorant questions. Please be patient with me.
I was in my younger days a grappler and couldn't agree with you more concerning the difficulty in throwing a well trained grappler. I have however, been thrown quite speedily by other, more skilled grapplers. Almost upon contact. I don't know if it was by internal power or not. I'm guessing you would probably be able to toss me upon contact, hence my question. Are there those that you can toss upon contact and others that take longer to "feel' out?
You've changed so I stopped ignoring you.:D
Grappling is grappling there are all types of skill levels and rules. Sure I throw allot of people with ease.So what? I just don't think much about it, as I know there are guys who are not going down easy-particularly a few of my own. Then you can start adding punching and kicking. Anyone can get tagged. on the other hand I have a 290 lb. guy who has trained with me for 15 years-very soft, very sensitive and explosive. You can try throwing him, doing push hands or try hitting him etc. ...I'll buy the popcorn.
I remain very level headed when it comes to discussing actual fighting with this type of power. Again, two very different topics. It's why I keep telling folks this training is best looked at to make "you, a better you" in what ever it is you choose to do.
On any other day I'll do wrist-grab, gi-grab, classic mokuroku pretzel logic, one step, waza with ya. I just don't like it much.
Aiki power is universal.

gdandscompserv
08-21-2008, 11:42 AM
You can try throwing him, doing push hands or try hitting him etc. ...I'll buy the popcorn.
Oh yay!
I get pummelled while you eat popcorn.:eek:

mathewjgano
08-22-2008, 04:21 PM
Here's another one from the same seminar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NznIJGakGJw
Like Dan A. said-note the weight difference.
Although he was only demonstrating potentials (the grappler is moving like a stiff crash test dummy) the power displayed never-the-less speaks for itself. I am so glad to see him and guys like Joe Chen playing, in a manner that demonstrates "classical power" while speaking to a more modern active audience.

I know technique means very little, but would anyone agree with me that the initial movement in this clip is soto kaiten? Soto-kaiten-ish?

DH
08-24-2008, 03:39 PM
A bit of background on the grappler (attacker)-posted by his teacher on a ICMA forum. Again note it was still only a demo.

all,
I see most are enjoying the clip. For those asking about the background of the attacker. He is my student for the past 6 years in Chen Taiji and has an extensive background prior to Taiji. He was 1st place winner in the PA wrestling championships for 2 years in a row and took 2nd in Nationals. He also won the PA sambo comp.One of his main wrestling teachers was Olympic Gold winner Dave Schultz (RIP). Since training with me, he has worked as an Imminent threat specialist and bodyguard for many notable people, including: Lennox Lewis, Chris Tucker, Sean (Diddy) Combs, Saudi Royal Family. Mike also has about 80 pounds on Chen, Bing.

During the workshop we had a couple pro MMA fighters join in training. BY day 2, two of the guys didn't show because we trained too hard for them, They said they could not walk from the soreness in the legs.One of the others started as a non-believer and by the end of the day was amazed that Taiji was so applicable. Chen, Bing spent 2 days covering conditioning and applications. Basically he showed how the Chen guys prepare for competition and condition themselves

DH
08-24-2008, 03:42 PM
This is the same grappler playing with another Taiji guy-I think its Mike Martello -I'm not sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cel1-hIO_dc


This is the guy's teacher- I mentioned above- also playing with Chen Bing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NznIJGakGJw

Kevin Leavitt
08-24-2008, 05:00 PM
Wow, missed this thread last week when I was out of town. Very good stuff, this is what I have been looking for! Thanks.

Aikibu
08-24-2008, 06:36 PM
The Abe Sensei of Tai Chi???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU&feature=related

William Hazen

Who me??? Devil's Advocate LOL :D

Aikibu
08-24-2008, 06:48 PM
Here's another one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r59gWTzKSw&feature=related

After watching it you just may see some slight similarity between Aikido Practice and "Tui Shou". :) I enjoyed this clip very it was great to watch. We do something very similar called "sticky arms" ( I am not familiar with the Japanese Term) First with Nikkyo Then Ikkyo, Shomenuchi, and finally Kotegashi.

I still believe that very little separates us except our own bias. :)

William Hazen

Erick Mead
08-24-2008, 08:11 PM
...some slight similarity between Aikido Practice and "Tui Shou". I enjoyed this clip very it was great to watch. We do something very similar called "sticky arms" ( I am not familiar with the Japanese Term) First with Nikkyo Then Ikkyo, Shomenuchi, and finally Kotegashi.

I still believe that very little seperates us except our own bias.Way more than enough, unfortunately.

Since you probably will take benefit of it, and those committed to a tailspin bias will not, the "sticky" connection of this type is in shear. A point worth looking into for the open mind.

Josh Lerner
08-24-2008, 08:30 PM
This is the same grappler playing with another Taiji guy-I think its Mike Martello -I'm not sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cel1-hIO_dc

Close, but wrong Michael. His name is Michael Rosario-Graycar.

http://www.taijiboxing.com/bio_and_lineage.htm

Josh

MM
08-25-2008, 07:34 AM
Way more than enough, unfortunately.

Since you probably will take benefit of it, and those committed to a tailspin bias will not, the "sticky" connection of this type is in shear. A point worth looking into for the open mind.

Well, for those of the open mind, can you *do* "sticky" connection? It's easy enough to be an Internet armchair master, but being able to *do* in the real world is the deciding factor. Can you *do* everything you define so easily from the computer screen?

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2008, 08:14 AM
Interesting, we see a thread where the person under discussion even has his name in the title, and you do what? You post some non-pertinent clip of someone else?

That's not devil's advocate, that's just a non-sequitor...

Any comments on the subject at hand?

I found the clip unusual because you see someone stepping up in a way must of us do not. Seminar or not, seeing free play application of the skills in question is quite refreshing. Especially with someone well trained in grappling.

Best,
Ron
The Abe Sensei of Tai Chi???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU&feature=related

William Hazen

Who me??? Devil's Advocate LOL :D

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 09:27 AM
Interesting, we see a thread where the person under discussion even has his name in the title, and you do what? You post some non-pertinent clip of someone else?

That's not devil's advocate, that's just a non-sequitor...

Any comments on the subject at hand?

Ron

William's selection of Grandmaster Hyang shows a "compare and contrast".

Chen Beng is a "young man" with good foundation. But, obviously, he is using "external" more than "internal" energy. His use of "noise" and sound energy indicate a desire to impress his audience to what "they can relate to and understand".

In Hyang's tape we see the same "softness" as in "Mochida 10th dan Kendo, and in O"sensei. Pure sensitivity to energy and the direction of energy rather than external (muscular) energy.

The objective is to use the "sligtest" amount of energy to accomplish incredible results. It's not what you "see" it's what you don't see.

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2008, 09:50 AM
I disagree...I think William had no such serious intent what so ever.

I also disagree with your analysis of Chen Beng's performance being more "external" than "internal". But that is simply based on what I saw on the clip...it's not like I was there to feel it myself.

Best,
Ron
William's selection of Grandmaster Hyang shows a "compare and contrast".

Chen Beng is a "young man" with good foundation. But, obviously, he is using "external" more than "internal" energy. His use of "noise" and sound energy indicate a desire to impress his audience to what "they can relate to and understand".

In Hyang's tape we see the same "softness" as in "Mochida 10th dan Kendo, and in O"sensei. Pure sensitivity to energy and the direction of energy rather than external (muscular) energy.

The objective is to use the "sligtest" amount of energy to accomplish incredible results. It's not what you "see" it's what you don't see.

DH
08-25-2008, 10:12 AM
Well in keeping with my standard line
Watch the uke-not the teacher. It's all about the level of attack.

In Bings case the grappler was well versed, but still looked a bit stiff or "holding back" to me. Turns out he was it was just a demo. And a damn good one at that.

Hyang's ukes were not doing anything much but offering up direct force. Where I may disagree with some who criticize what they saw; The bounce, and double bounce? I have done it and had it done to me. WIth simple force coming back at you rapidly, you sometimes can't get your feet under you and the energy is still sending you back. When you land, you try to stay on your feet but the energy is still going back so you bounce again. It looks fake until you try to re-create it on your own, then you see yourself "launching" with your legs. Most guys who have played with internal have experienced it. Another aspect is the rapid feet going back. A more interesting way to look at it-is with that much energy going backward or "in" to the guy-apply that depth of energy to a focused punch.
What is important is to recognize its only a voluntary demo.
Were his students to be more engaged and absorbing and redirecting themselves it would not look nearly as dramatic-at all-but the power would still be the same.
So where Hyang's demo doesn't have the same credibility they are both none-the-less internal in nature. How on earth you would think Bings moves are external is beyond me. To use the admonition that you can "see it" is simply ridiculous. Just because you can see it, does not make it externally driven. Having had a 70 yr old master level Taiji guy unload on me...ya, the power is real. Its what the uke does it with it. I didn't let it send me, I absorbed and redirected so it didn't look as dramatic. However, nothing can take away the fact that it was the most power I ever had to deal with.
I wasn't concerned with how it "looked"-at the time!

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 10:50 AM
I also disagree with your analysis of Chen Beng's performance being more "external" than "internal". But that is simply based on what I saw on the clip...it's not like I was there to feel it myself.

Best,
Ron

Interesting...do you practice "push hands"? You may disagree, but, if you don't "internally practice" how do you know?

As for Chen Beng being "external". As long as you are alive and with a "body" you will exhibit "external" power through the muscles and sinews. You learn to become more and more efficient as your "external" body begins to die. You do so out of necessity. You do so at of wonder and awe. Certainly Chen Beng is much more advanced than the beginners he is dealing with. And Certainly, the intermediates are impressed "because the intermediates by popularity vote say he is good".

As such, developing "internal power" is a matter of "degree". It does not happen overnight. You begin with intent. You want to learn it. You hear rumors and you read about it. And then you get lucky. A teacher appears...

He opens the doors. But, that is all. It is up to you to go through the many doors that await you. As such, you discover, that the learning continues throughout your lifetime from your 20's. 30's 40's 50' and well into your 70's. Yet, the parameter is always "result".

If you can't take out the guy with the "slightist" of movements but he can do so with you...take lessons from him. I encourage you...

MM
08-25-2008, 11:05 AM
Interesting...do you practice "push hands"? You may disagree, but, if you don't "internally practice" how do you know?

As for Chen Beng being "external". As long as you are alive and with a "body" you will exhibit "external" power through the muscles and sinews. You learn to become more and more efficient as your "external" body begins to die. You do so out of necessity. You do so at of wonder and awe. Certainly Chen Beng is much more advanced than the beginners he is dealing with. And Certainly, the intermediates are impressed "because the intermediates by popularity vote say he is good".



Your "external" and "internal" definitions are extremely different than what quite a few of us here view it. Your definition and view are so at odds with what some of us have felt and experienced and trained that your definition and view is really quite simplistic and limited -- as far as conversation in this matter is concerned. Perhaps you have a better view/definition, I don't know. But the stuff you post hasn't shown that ... yet.

If you reread some of the threads dealing with our experiences with "internal" skills, I think you would come away with a much better idea of what we are talking about. It would help give you a frame of reference towards what we post. There's a baseline skillset thread here on Aikiweb. It's a good start.

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2008, 11:09 AM
Interesting...do you practice "push hands"?

What does that have to do with anything? I occationally get together with some friends and work in a similar format...I personally would not call it push hands. Something like the disciplined patterned practice I've seen from the Chen Taiji crowd I would consider more formal push hands. What I do is of low quality, and not at all formal. I think too many people go around saying "I do such and such", and too often they are people who have no clue of what "such and such" actually entails. Sign of the times, I guess.

You may disagree, but, if you don't "internally practice" how do you know?

What makes you think I don't "internally practice"? "Practicing Internally" is not tied to "push hands". Though push hands is one method people use to move beyond the static postures sometimes associated with developing internal skill.

As for Chen Beng being "external". As long as you are alive and with a "body" you will exhibit "external" power through the muscles and sinews. You learn to become more and more efficient as your "external" body begins to die. You do so out of necessity. You do so at of wonder and awe. Certainly Chen Beng is much more advanced than the beginners he is dealing with. And Certainly, the intermediates are impressed "because the intermediates by popularity vote say he is good".

It's statements like these that often turn me off to your writing style and commentary. I think I'll just bow out now. For what it's worth, popularity has nothing to do with MY opinions...:D

Best,
Ron

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 11:45 AM
[QUOTE=Mark Murray;214412]Your "external" and "internal" definitions are extremely different than what quite a few of us here view it. Your definition and view are so at odds with what some of us have felt and experienced and trained that your definition and view is really quite simplistic and limited -- as far as conversation in this matter is concerned. Perhaps you have a better view/definition, I don't know. But the stuff you post hasn't shown that ... yet.

/QUOTE]

Mark,

Four guys decide by popular opinion that they are going to build a house. They vote and agree as to the construction. None of them have ever built a house. They then tell the "contractor" with 45 years experience that he doesn't know what he is doing...

Perhaps, they do no more...

But, they should at least attempt to listen to someone who has practiced and taught martial arts for over 45 years. Especially when they are the majority of voices in the "popular vote".

Here is an example of "knocking the guy across the room". It was performed on a group of "preying mantis" gung fu guys in Rome, Italy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwuw6ctjlo

I would certainly like to see more than "words" in threads by someone like Dan or Mike, "knocking guys across the room". I say so with due respect. I would be the first guy to learn from these guys if they could show me a "greater power".

DH
08-25-2008, 11:49 AM
Hi Ron, Mark
What is more interesting for me is seeing you guys experience both scenarios with your training, then to see you start doing it; where your power bounces up or down (I know ts weird but power down can cause an up bounce as well) or drives people down, and then you start using it in a more of a grappling or live interchange where you can be light to heavy, sticky or driving and throwing. Then....I want to yak with you fellas about discoveries you've made!!

I found out -thanks to Josh- that the other video I posted of Mike G. He is a student of.........Chen Bing! and Chen Xiawang. Small world.

DH
08-25-2008, 12:03 PM
[QUOTE=Mark Murray;214412]Your "external" and "internal" definitions are extremely different than what quite a few of us here view it. Your definition and view are so at odds with what some of us have felt and experienced and trained that your definition and view is really quite simplistic and limited -- as far as conversation in this matter is concerned. Perhaps you have a better view/definition, I don't know. But the stuff you post hasn't shown that ... yet.

/QUOTE]

Mark,

Four guys decide by popular opinion that they are going to build a house. They vote and agree as to the construction. None of them have ever built a house. They then tell the "contractor" with 45 years experience that he doesn't know what he is doing...

Perhaps, they do no more...

But, they should at least attempt to listen to someone who has practiced and taught martial arts for over 45 years. Especially when they are the majority of voices in the "popular vote".

Here is an example of "knocking the guy across the room". It was performed on a group of "preying mantis" gung fu guys in Rome, Italy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwuw6ctjlo

I would certainly like to see more than "words" in threads by someone like Dan or Mike, "knocking guys across the room". I say so with due respect. I would be the first guy to learn from these guys if they could show me a "greater power".

Well I know any number of people who can do what that guy did in that video. He stepped out and pushed, with allot of slack in the body-the structure was not there so much of his energy was dissipated in himself- and pushed mostly with his upper body forward The mechanic is like a boxers weight transfer to one side (0.18 sec).He rebounds off the guy (at .25 sec) The effect on the uke was typical of the reaction of an external push. It isn't the same. You can also do it with more of a wave mechanic-that you see discussed in some quasi-aiki arts. Its more subtle and disruptive but isn't internal either.
I am sure the guy thinks he is doing an internal art though, not my problem.
Of further interest was watching his feet through the weight transfers. It is quite telling in many places. Two quick ones; his weight caused him to go up on the outside of his left foot twice while rocking-(55-58 sec and again at 1:02 and 1:09) ouch! And the push... pull back by the arm caused him to go up on his toes while pulling back (48sec). His weights in his toes at (59 sec).
He's a mess structurally against the loads presented.
These are indications of a lack- of first step structural stability and how to carry the weight. Steps that the body then begins to do more beginner level work with, til they reach an intermediate level.
I'd not argue the guy may have martial skills. No problem. I just don't see anything internal. Who is he?
As far as the 45 yrs of experience go. Two things.
a) You're talking to one with 40.
b) It doesn't mean either one of us knows everything about everything.

I am mindful that there is much to learn and I remain open till it is discounted. Thus I am narrowing the sources through the reduction of negatives.

Aikibu
08-25-2008, 12:11 PM
Interesting, we see a thread where the person under discussion even has his name in the title, and you do what? You post some non-pertinent clip of someone else?

My Box is larger than yours apparently...:)

That's not devil's advocate, that's just a non-sequitor...

See my above comment

Any comments on the subject at hand?

had you read the thread You would see I did comment on the Video...I also happened to see an opportunity to "contrast and compare" A whole thread was devoted to Abe's Sensei's filmed "internal dynamic" and When I saw this particular Grandmaster it stood out in perfect context and thus proves my point.

I found the clip unusual because you see someone stepping up in a way must of us do not. Seminar or not, seeing free play application of the skills in question is quite refreshing. Especially with someone well trained in grappling

Best,
Ron

We agree there....and I think I have made my point with regard to You Tube as well. Sorry you "took it" wrong Ron. My post was an excellent way for me to see where folks actual biases are in context. Abe Sensei got HAMMERED for showing much the same thing...

Again if it were not for these biases we might actually learn allot more from each other since there is a silver thread of unity that binds us all together...

We are all on the same path up the mountain.

William Hazen

Erick Mead
08-25-2008, 12:17 PM
Well, for those of the open mind, can you *do* "sticky" connection? It's easy enough to be an Internet armchair master, but being able to *do* in the real world is the deciding factor. Can you *do* everything you define so easily from the computer screen?Tegatana makes no sense for training UNLESS you can do or are working toward "sticky" with your hands, arms or other parts -- same as with a blade. On the other hand ( :D ) I stick well enough that ikkyo, nikkyo, kotegaeshi and shihonage, kaitennage may be done with the hand-heel, wrist or forearm connection not necessarily requiring use of any grip by my hands -- and of course whatever is being called kokyunage on a given day.
Sankyo, yonkyo -- still gotta grip -- but that is sorta definitional -- unless you count a straight transition to the sankyo osae, but that cheats the technique and is really hard to meaningfully distinguish from a close kaiten where you brace with the body instead of gripping the arms, and go for the drop pin instead of the throw. Uke needs fair warning on that though, otherwise its fairly short and sharp.

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE=Joseph Arriola;214414]

Well I know any number of people who can do what that guy did in that video. He stepped out and pushed, with allot of slack in the body-the structure was not there so much of his energy was dissipated in himself- and pushed mostly with his upper body forward The mechanic is like a boxers weight transfer to one side (0.18 sec).He rebounds off the guy (at .25 sec) The effect on the uke was typical of the reaction of an external push. It isn't the same. You can also do it with more of a wave mechanic-that you see discussed in some quasi-aiki arts. Its more subtle and disruptive but isn't internal either.
I am sure the guy thinks he is doing an internal art though, not my problem.


Well, Dan, I'm the guy. But, then you know that.
Now, show us your videos. Certainly, from your comments I can tell you "can't see". Of course, with your line of thinking, you won't because "you can't really tell unless you feel it".

Hmmm...so how can you judge me under your parameter of "you can't really tell unless you feel it...so I don't put up video".

Better, show me a few of your students that can "knock people across the room".

My name is Joe by the way. If you are ever in the SF Bay Area I'll let you teach a class. :)

DH
08-25-2008, 12:27 PM
[QUOTE=Dan Harden;214416]

Well, Dan, I'm the guy. But, then you know that.
Now, show us your videos. Certainly, from your comments I can tell you "can't see". Of course, with your line of thinking, you won't because "you can't really tell unless you feel it".

Hmmm...so how can you judge me under your parameter of "you can't really tell unless you feel it...so I don't put up video".

Better, show me a few of your students that can "knock people across the room".

My name is Joe by the way. If you are ever in the SF Bay Area I'll let you teach a class. :)
Oops..no I didn't! I don't know you or have ever seen you before.
And Joe, Had I known. I wouldn't have commented.
I thought you were comparing your teacher or someone you knew to the ones posted
I'm not interested in showing videos. I think I suck and would never presume to be teaching someone. I share the little I know with interested folks.
Then again I think most people teaching...shouldn't be either.
If I ever make it to S.F. I will look you up so we can play. I love sticks. I might be using them differently then what you'de expect as internal power works there as well. So that will be fun to experiment with.

Erick Mead
08-25-2008, 12:29 PM
The mechanic is like .. (0.18 sec).He rebounds off the guy (at .25 sec) The effect ... typical of the reaction ... a wave mechanic-that .. subtle and disruptive but isn't internal either. (55-58 sec and again at 1:02 and 1:09) ouch! And the push... pull back by the arm caused him to go up on his toes while pulling back (48sec). His weights in his toes at (59 sec).
You seem to be picking up some of those icky mechanical analysis habits from somewhere. ;) "Lie down with dogs, ..." eh? :D But that is merely negative. Care to lay out the affirmative distinctions in your own clip, with the accompanying analysis? You sure did a good job on his.

DH
08-25-2008, 12:34 PM
You seem to be picking up some of those icky mechanical analysis habits from somewhere. ;) Lie down with dogs, eh? :D But that is merely negative. Care to lay out the affirmative distinctions in your own clip, with the accompanying analysis? You sure did a good job on his.
Aren't you the one teaching by physics? Now if you only could do what you try to analyze we'd be golden. Try taking a stab at what's wrong with Josephs movement and how to correct it without using a single scientific word or phrase. I now a few guys who can actually do these things-rank beginners from right here at aikiweb, who could do it at the drop of a hat. Give it whirl. I'll go get the popcorn started
Since your teacher is now telling me what I am doing wrong on the net, I'm open. I bow to my superiors. I'd like to help you and your teacher try... and help correct me. There are some people who will fly down for this.
Have you talked with your teacher yet?

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 12:43 PM
I'm open. I bow to my superiors. I'd like to help you and your teacher try... and help correct me. There are some people who will fly down for this.
Have you talked with your teacher yet?

I'm ready to learn from you. Please come...bring your video so we can analyze frame for frame "how I can knock the guy across the room like you do".

How old are you by the way? Can you tell me a bit about your occupation? Your success as a father and husband? Money in the bank? I'm just curious do you believe mastery in life speaks of mastery in the martial arts?

This is Joe, by the way.

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2008, 12:45 PM
Hi William,

I'm sorry, I still don't see the connection. I don't presume to know your box, I can barely keep track of my own. The Abe Sensei discussion was quite valuable for me...but I don't see the connection between that and what we see in the initial clip posted here.

If you remember, I was quite impressed by Abe Sensei...in person. Not so much on the clip (please understand it's context) that started that whole thread.

Have I read *which* thread? I've read and contributed to both this one, and the Abe Sensei thread. Maybe there is a third one I am unaware of?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2008, 12:49 PM
How old are you by the way?

Non-sequitor

Can you tell me a bit about your occupation?

Non-sequitor

Your success as a father and husband?

Non-sequitor

Money in the bank?

Non-sequitor

I'm just curious do you believe mastery in life speaks of mastery in the martial arts?

I'm sure a new thread would handle these questions quite well...I'm equally sure from my knowledge of Dan that he would measure up just fine in anyone's book. Not that it has one whit to do with any of *this* conversation.

Best,
Ron (sigh)

DH
08-25-2008, 12:57 PM
I'm ready to learn from you. Please come...bring your video so we can analyze frame for frame "how I can knock the guy across the room like you do".

How old are you by the way? Can you tell me a bit about your occupation? Your success as a father and husband? Money in the bank? I'm just curious do you believe mastery in life speaks of mastery in the martial arts?

This is Joe, by the way.

If I ever head out that way I might give ya a call before. I've no issues with you at all.
Do I think Mastery of life equates with mastery of martal arts? No.
In fact, I think its ridiculous. I do very well thank you, I've been married for decades and I still "like" my wife and want to hang out with her, just got back from kayaking with the wife and kid. Though the economy is killing my particular business rght now I have enjoyed some measurable success here and there, and wheathered some hard times.
Of secondary concerns to a persons success would be the pursuit of material things, to relational things. How do you equate a scumbag defense lawyer, who is highly successful, who has 3 divorces and kids who hate him, with a prosecture with 4 kids and a wife with M.S. who is poor and they all love him dearly?
OR...most all of the amazing incredible martial artists from China and Japan who were poor by focusing on their arts or by happentance of war, economy, or a "cultural revolution" beyond their control?
It appears I measure a man by far different means.

Aikibu
08-25-2008, 01:09 PM
Well, for those of the open mind, can you *do* "sticky" connection? It's easy enough to be an Internet armchair master, but being able to *do* in the real world is the deciding factor. Can you *do* everything you define so easily from the computer screen?

I guess we'll see someday. ;)

I think we do "sticky" very well. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
08-25-2008, 01:14 PM
Hi William,

I'm sorry, I still don't see the connection. I don't presume to know your box, I can barely keep track of my own. The Abe Sensei discussion was quite valuable for me...but I don't see the connection between that and what we see in the initial clip posted here.

There was not meant to be a connection between those clips but between the Abe one and the one I posted. But I have already said as much in my prior post.

If you remember, I was quite impressed by Abe Sensei...in person. Not so much on the clip (please understand it's context) that started that whole thread.

Have I read *which* thread? I've read and contributed to both this one, and the Abe Sensei thread. Maybe there is a third one I am unaware of?

Best,
Ron

Hopefully I put you back on track. In the mean time I'll just enjoy reading about which blind man feels his part of the elephant is better and why. :)

William Hazen

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2008, 01:15 PM
There IS no elephant.

:D

Best,
Ron

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 01:17 PM
If I ever head out that way I might give ya a call before. I've no issues with you at all.
Do I think Mastery of life equates with mastery of martal arts? No.
In fact, I think its ridiculous. I do very well thank you, I've been married for decades and I still "like" my wife and want to hang out with her, just got back from kayaking with the wife and kid. Though the economy is killing my particular business rght now I have enjoyed some measurable success here and there, and wheathered some hard times.
Of secondary concerns to a persons success would be the pursuit of material things, to relational things. How do you equate a scumbag defense lawyer, who is highly successful, who has 3 divorces and kids who hate him, with a prosecture with 4 kids and a wife with M.S. who is poor and they all love him dearly?
OR...most all of the amazing incredible martial artists from China and Japan who were poor by focusing on their arts or by happentance of war, economy, or a "cultural revolution" beyond their control?
It appears I measure a man by far different means.

Well, I"m sure you know that I have been a lawyer for 28 years. I started college at 15 and went to the University of California, Berkeley and then to UC Hastings College of the Law. Of course, I went not for the school but to hopefully take lessons from Bruce Lee. I missed him by one year in 1973.

I've written several articles for Inside Kung Fu and Black Belt Magazines and their sister publications. And I've taught seminars around the world. My wife is a domestic violence attorney and a knife fighter in her own right. I am most proud of my two girls. We home school them. And of course, I have a bit of respect in my community.

Obviously, Dan, we come to martial arts and to life from completely differing views. I believe Qi is "the life force" and that the more you have it and can harmonize it, the more prosperous and happy you will be. I believe that everybody has "Qi". It's just that most people don't attempt hard enough to hone their skills. Yet, I believe that those who do, can look forward to learning well into their 80's. As such, I give greater credence to those "oldsters" who can still take out the 20 and 30 somethings.

Again, if you don't mind me asking "how old are you?"

Yes, please give me a call, I would certainly delight in you teaching a class. In fact, I will invite some of the local "masters".

DH
08-25-2008, 01:29 PM
Well, I"m sure you know that I have been a lawyer for 28 years. I started college at 15 and went to the University of California, Berkeley and then to UC Hastings College of the Law. Of course, I went not for the school but to hopefully take lessons from Bruce Lee. I missed him by one year in 1973.

I've written several articles for Inside Kung Fu and Black Belt Magazines and their sister publications. And I've taught seminars around the world. My wife is a domestic violence attorney and a knife fighter in her own right. I am most proud of my two girls. We home school them. And of course, I have a bit of respect in my community.

Obviously, Dan, we come to martial arts and to life from completely differing views. I believe Qi is "the life force" and that the more you have it and can harmonize it, the more prosperous and happy you will be. I believe that everybody has "Qi". It's just that most people don't attempt hard enough to hone their skills. Yet, I believe that those who do, can look forward to learning well into their 80's. As such, I give greater credence to those "oldsters" who can still take out the 20 and 30 somethings.
Again, if you don't mind me asking "how old are you?"

Yes, please give me a call, I would certainly delight in you teaching a class. In fact, I will invite some of the local "masters".

Sorry Joe
I find no credible logic to your post. Particularly in light of the lives of so many truly outstanding martial artists in history who would be discounted by your own measuring stick.
How does any of this relate to the thread?
I've seen nothing exhibited now in video or in writing that would (if qualifications have to be presented) give either you or Erick a ticket to enter the building-much less be given the floor to discuss the subject.
Vocation, interests, pedagogy, name dropping, science as a hobby, family history and bank accounts aside-Is there something else to offer?

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 01:50 PM
Sorry Joe
I find no credible logic to your post. Particularly in light of the lives of so many truly outstanding martial artists in history who would be discounted by your own measuring stick.
How does any of this relate to the thread?
I've seen nothing exhibited now in video or in writing that would (if qualifications have to be presented) give either you or Erick a ticket to enter the building-much less be given the floor to discuss the subject.
Vocation, interests, pedagogy, name dropping, science as a hobby, family history and bank accounts aside-Is there something else to offer?

Sorry Dan, Well when you practice another 15 years maybe you will see it. I'm also sorry you can't answer the simple question about your age.

Don't feel too insecure about your lack of achievements. There is always time until it is too late.

As for something else to offer, try listening to Eric a bit more. Being a pilot and a professional, I think he has a few more educated answers that you might appreciate. I certainly am open minded.

By the way, my name is Joe. I think the other guys you attempt to ignore should also remind you about their names. It's called respect and courtesy. :)

Best,
Joe

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2008, 01:58 PM
Don't feel too insecure about your lack of achievements.

Oh boy. In my best Ronald Reagan voice...

There you go again...

B,
R

DH
08-25-2008, 02:13 PM
Deleted
Peoples personal lives have nothing to do with the topic.
f you would like to start a thread about Jobs, marital and family histories, bank accounts and how you believe that has vetted you for a topic on MA-please go right ahead.
Please leave the thread to those of us having a discussion about the thread.

MM
08-25-2008, 02:35 PM
Sorry Dan, Well when you practice another 15 years maybe you will see it. I'm also sorry you can't answer the simple question about your age.


I certainly will love to see how far he's gotten in 5 years, let alone 15. However that is from a perspective that you will not understand because you haven't had the pleasure of training with him.


Don't feel too insecure about your lack of achievements. There is always time until it is too late.


ROTFL!!! That has to be *THE* funniest thing I've read in a long time. It's beyond hilarious. If I wasn't laughing so hard, I'd probably think it's sad.

Joe, not only for you, but for the rest reading this. Dan has more skill than I've seen in most everyone I've met. But, more amazing than that is his ability to teach and get people to have those very same skills he has. I have seen all the various stages that people are at while training with him. I've felt other people -- who showed up to train that had nothing like I did -- over the last year and a half get stronger and more competent in structure. I've felt people who have trained lots longer. You can see, tell, and feel the differences.

Some of these people have 5 to 15 years in a martial art and they've progressed more in a year and a half than in 10 years prior training. Not because of the prior training, either. But because of the ability of Dan to get people to *do* and his methodology. If you show up and train, you progress. There is no hidden agenda, nothing held back. And in his students, you see the progression levels from beginner to advanced.

He exemplifies what a student of Budo should be. As a martial artist, he's top of the class. As an instructor, he's even better. But, where he really shines is as a human being. There is no ego in training, no manner of bowing and scraping, no sense of superiority, and an atmosphere of learning by all. And then he does something beyond all that -- he gives his time and effort to pass on what he knows for free.

You really have no clue, Joe. I say the same thing to everyone who doesn't understand -- go train with Dan and experience things firsthand.


As for something else to offer, try listening to Eric a bit more. Being a pilot and a professional, I think he has a few more educated answers that you might appreciate. I certainly am open minded.

Best,
Joe

Erick doesn't have a clue. And he won't change that. Will you be different than Erick?

Mark

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 02:51 PM
I
Joe, not only for you, but for the rest reading this. Dan has more skill than I've seen in most everyone I've met. But, more amazing than that is his ability to teach and get people to have those very same skills he has. I have seen all the various stages that people are at while training with him. I've felt other people -- who showed up to train that had nothing like I did -- over the last year and a half get stronger and more competent in structure. I've felt people who have trained lots longer. You can see, tell, and feel the differences.

Some of these people have 5 to 15 years in a martial art and they've progressed more in a year and a half than in 10 years prior training. Not because of the prior training, either. But because of the ability of Dan to get people to *do* and his methodology. If you show up and train, you progress. There is no hidden agenda, nothing held back. And in his students, you see the progression levels from beginner to advanced.

You really have no clue, Joe. I say the same thing to everyone who doesn't understand -- go train with Dan and experience things firsthand.

Erick doesn't have a clue. And he won't change that. Will you be different than Erick?

Mark

Mark,

How do you know?
Why should I trust your opinion. How long have you studied? How long have you taught? Are you knocking people across the room?
This is called a resume.

With Chen Beng, I can see his technique. I can make my assessments based on my resume. I don't do so because a group of beginners get together and decide that "someone better" than them is better than the rest of us. But, then, you do not give credence to 1) resume 2) experience 3) or video.

As such, Why should I trust a beginner with 5-15 years training...who is learning from an intermediate. I invite you and Dan to come to San Francisco to teach a class.

You and the rest attack aikido and its great teachers. You don't see it as a complete martial art because you have not looked "in depth". This board has provided wonderful examples of "mastery". Yet, you choose to follow the "popularity contest".

Nonetheless I enjoy the randori. :)

Ron Tisdale
08-25-2008, 02:59 PM
Hey Mark,
Nice post. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Best,
Ron

rob_liberti
08-25-2008, 03:46 PM
Hi Joe, my name is Rob. I'm an aikikai yondan. As I understand it, I'm an intermediate by definition of aikikai rank - and my years in aikido is not in the 5 to 15 years range either. I can knock people with no structure across the room. If I can sucker someone with typical aikido skill into trying to put a nikkyo on me, I can probably get them to achieve a low orbit. :) I have let a BJJ instructor freely attack me for over an hour (almost 2) and shut his lame attempts to take me to the ground down completely.

However, I still feel I am a total beginner and that I suck when I compare what I can do to others I have respect for in marital arts. I was starting to think I must be martial arts retard or something until I met Dan.

Since I met Dan I feel like I'm making more progress than I ever did. I met people in Dan's class who after 1 year could do things I've never seen/felt anyone in martial arts be able to do with less than 20-25 years of intense training. I've been trying to dramatically alter my life so that I can get to Dan's class consistently. I have a 6 figure job, and a loving family as well. If that lends any further credibility to my opinion.

Anyway, I agree with you, Joe. I think Dan is probably intermediate. I think Sagawa was probably advanced. The difference is that I think most in aikido are not even on that scale. You may be on that scale. I don't know. But I would suggest that you consider my opinion to to be credible enough in terms of the level of aiki I have experienced.

Rob

MM
08-25-2008, 04:16 PM
You and the rest attack aikido and its great teachers. You don't see it as a complete martial art because you have not looked "in depth". This board has provided wonderful examples of "mastery". Yet, you choose to follow the "popularity contest".



Geez, Joe. Still with the not having a clue. Not one of us has attacked aikido or its teachers. There's a great many out there that I'd train with at the drop of a hat. People like Clark, Hooker, Ikeda, Gleason, Utada, Parker, Heiny, Ledyard, etc. The list goes on.

There's been tons of debate about aikido being "complete" or not. You weren't here.

There's been tons of posts about some great people in aikido. You weren't here.

If anyone hasn't looked "in depth" at aikido, I would imagine it to be you. How long have you trained in aikido? Who is your teacher? What seminars have you attended? How long have you been on AikiWeb? E-Budo? Aikido Journal? Where are your bonafides in the aikido world that you can claim "mastery" and call other teachers "intermediates"? Who sings your praises here other than yourself? Where are your students of aikido, since you claim over 40 years of teaching? Where are your videos of aikido? Why didn't you receive good reception on other martial arts boards like Empty Flower? Care to answer those questions?

DH
08-25-2008, 04:22 PM
Mark,
This is called a resume.

With Chen Beng, I can see his technique. I can make my assessments based on my resume. I don't do so because a group of beginners get together and decide that "someone better" than them is better than the rest of us. But, then, you do not give credence to 1) resume 2) experience 3) or video.
And all of which has pretty muck knocked you out of the discussion in my book-as your resume is in your body movments displayed. *Warning* this is not a personal attack such as the types offered by you in rebuttal. I am discussing your movement and skills.
Resume. Your martial skills may have some merit- I have no idea. Your physical movement dissplays an almost complete lack of understanding of anything internal or of aiki. I didn't need to see it, as thes previous discussions more or less proved it a while back. Can you explain how you were so out of balance in such a rudimentary and non pressing session? Or why so many who have trained this way can point out the obvious flaws and could even correct them in you by showing you how to retrain your body to have structure and utilize it in a more cohesive and even explosive manner?
I am reminded of some taiji people I saw trying to copy the "movement" of their teacher ad had the imitation of form down pat. It looked great. But alas, they had nothing and could be blow right through. Your body demonstrated that someone with real skills would simply take your strucutre apart with ease. YOu mught have the martial attributes to defend your weaknesses somewhat, but that's a separet issue Joe.
For purposes of this discussio we were talking about internal skills.
I think you have graciously dsiplayed for an increasingly large and educated audience-that you have none.
So thanks for that. Next?

You and the rest attack aikido and its great teachers. You don't see it as a complete martial art because you have not looked "in depth". This board has provided wonderful examples of "mastery". Yet, you choose to follow the "popularity contest".
Nonetheless I enjoy the randori. :)
Well most everyone here is IN Aikido Joe-under those teachers. ANd they have no intentions of leaving. They intend to get theres and fix Aikido, and then openly share with people who want to know and understand Aiki. Last time I checked Joe, "those people" you are cutting up just now? include a hell of a lot of aikido and CMA teachers, as well was Aikido, koryu, MMA, ICMA, students-many of whom are far along in years.

I think you have lost touch with just who it is that is having these discussions these days. It is a growing field of interest, and thus far the conversion rate is close to 100%. From some one who likes to discuss a scientific method, that is a pretty compelling statement from such a diverse group that doesn't know each other.
Dismissing it out of hand is beginning to sound pretty foolish.
In the mean time. lets be frank and argue the skills or lack thereof. and not cut each other up- shall we.

TAnderson
08-25-2008, 04:29 PM
With Chen Beng, I can see his technique. I can make my assessments based on my resume. I don't do so because a group of beginners get together and decide that "someone better" than them is better than the rest of us. But, then, you do not give credence to 1) resume 2) experience 3) or video.

Joseph,

Why not provide an analysis of what Chen Bing is doing in the clip? Your previous statement about external usage should be explained more I think given that Chen Bing has worldwide renown as an internal stylist and has won many push hands contests in China. Of course, that does not necessarily mean anything however I know people who have touched Chen Bing and I will take their word for it because I know their ability. I think you should qualify your statements by providing some detailed knowledge of internal usage.

On a side note, I have felt instructors who have trained from a few years to fifty years and I can tell you hours trained does not make someone capable. A friend of mine who has trained internal strength for ~7 years or so, far outpaces many instructors who have trained 20 plus years.

Tim Anderson

DH
08-25-2008, 05:25 PM
Joseph,

Why not provide an analysis of what Chen Bing is doing in the clip? Your previous statement about external usage should be explained more I think given that Chen Bing has worldwide renown as an internal stylist and has won many push hands contests in China. Of course, that does not necessarily mean anything however I know people who have touched Chen Bing and I will take their word for it because I know their ability. I think you should qualify your statements by providing some detailed knowledge of internal usage.

On a side note, I have felt instructors who have trained from a few years to fifty years and I can tell you hours trained does not make someone capable. A friend of mine who has trained internal strength for ~7 years or so, far outpaces many instructors who have trained 20 plus years.

Tim Anderson
I'd be happy with Joe trying to explain how his own body was such a mess in his own video? Why post it in the first place -it being such a poor representation. There are reasons why he looked like he did. How would he correct someone-is he even capable of seeing the failures as they occured? Even now in retrospect? Of further interest was Marks comments about EF and Joe not being welcomed there.

Again as with Erick or anyone else-much is made out of those not being able to discuss it -too much I think. Its as if were at a convention where everyone has to be acknowledged and accepted. What isn't talked about or discussed is the hundreds of people who now get it and agree and can spot things, or the hundreds of others who at least acknowldege something is going on and trust the folks they know who are training this way. I think it has proven to be a far more positive influence on aikido so far than negative. I refuse to let just a few detractors or some poor communication ruin what is proving to be so beneficial to so many. That's why I so freely apologize if things get negative. We all have to look at our own motives and goals. Why are we hare talking about these things? What are we trying to accomplish?

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 05:39 PM
I think you have lost touch with just who it is that is having these discussions these days. It is a growing field of interest, and thus far the conversion rate is close to 100%. From some one who likes to discuss a scientific method, that is a pretty compelling statement from such a diverse group that doesn't know each other.
Dismissing it out of hand is beginning to sound pretty foolish.
In the mean time. lets be frank and argue the skills or lack thereof. and not cut each other up- shall we.

Dan,

Gee I must sound like John McCain with his 7 houses...being out of touch and all.

But, Dan, I see you are a bit more confident now that the rest of your "young friends" have massed for randori. Popular vote, gang mentality still does not show or prove your skill. How old are you?

Yondan...hehehe. I bet, Rob must outrank Dan Harden. So, that doesnt say much for his inflated rank.

Come over and let's play. Show me your videos. You guys are good at being "movie critics" not so good at making videos, decent at acting though.

We aren't really tearing each other up. At least not in "words". :)

MM
08-25-2008, 05:58 PM
Dan,

Gee I must sound like John McCain with his 7 houses...being out of touch and all.

But, Dan, I see you are a bit more confident now that the rest of your "young friends" have massed for randori. Popular vote, gang mentality still does not show or prove your skill. How old are you?

Yondan...hehehe. I bet, Rob must outrank Dan Harden. So, that doesnt say much for his inflated rank.

Come over and let's play. Show me your videos. You guys are good at being "movie critics" not so good at making videos, decent at acting though.

We aren't really tearing each other up. At least not in "words". :)

Uh, Joe, you never do answer the questions, do you? You just post more hyperbole that goes nowhere. Do you have any clue as to ages, ranks, styles, depth, really, pretty much anything that has to do with aikido?

So, who are you to talk about aikido in such depth? Your videos don't have anything to do with aikido. So, where are your videos of aikido? Where are your videos to prove your skill in aikido? You post videos of arnis, so you aren't above posting them. Where are the aikido vids?

DH
08-25-2008, 06:04 PM
Hi Mark
That pretty much did it for me. The skills displayed were self explanatory. The attitude? Rather surprising. When there's nothing of substance to say- its personal attack time
Oh well.

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 06:06 PM
Uh, Joe, you never do answer the questions, do you? You just post more hyperbole that goes nowhere. Do you have any clue as to ages, ranks, styles, depth, really, pretty much anything that has to do with aikido?

So, who are you to talk about aikido in such depth? Your videos don't have anything to do with aikido. So, where are your videos of aikido? Where are your videos to prove your skill in aikido? You post videos of arnis, so you aren't above posting them. Where are the aikido vids?

Mark,

You are such in a hurry to become a master...

It is the student that asks the question. It is the teacher's prerogative to answer...especially when the student has trouble structuring the question. Train harder.

I've seen your limited attempts to show your experiments on video. Talk to me in another 20 years. Perhaps, then you will be better able to ask the right questions. Better yet, come to one of my classes. Bring Dan.

By the way, did you see the Kendo video, that was put on this board?

I will teach you whatever weapon you'd like to learn. I will even introduce you to some of the local masters.

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 06:22 PM
Joseph,

Why not provide an analysis of what Chen Bing is doing in the clip? Your previous statement about external usage should be explained more I think given that Chen Bing has worldwide renown as an internal stylist and has won many push hands contests in China. Of course, that does not necessarily mean anything however I know people who have touched Chen Bing and I will take their word for it because I know their ability. I think you should qualify your statements by providing some detailed knowledge of internal usage.

Tim Anderson

Tim,

I did provide analysis. Look at my original post. I talked about his leakage of "sound energy". I talked about how "hard" he was in comparison to Hyang, Mochido and O'Sensei.

You don't see a high degree of "softness". Look at his hands, specifically. They tense when he strikes/grabs.

There are levels of practice in using and developing internal energy. In the beginning, you are concerned with developing the "tube" that is used to emitt internal energy. It's all about structure.

As you get better, you rid yourself of the "crutch of structure". Stances and forms become the very obstacle to the next level of "internal" power. And then, When you think you have "it"...you return to honing structure. You then rid youself again. The process is spirical...yang to yin, yin to yang.

The proof is how you can "knock the guy across the room" better and with more ease with each cycle. (In the Kendo video...the practitioner's affirm this lifetime process)

Look at Hyang, Mochido and O'Sensei. They were at points in their aged training, where "structure" was absent. They were soft and fluid. They became void of structure.

With my own students, when they are dying to learn the internal, I tell them "no" learn to fight instead. When they have learned to fight, then I tell them learn the "internal" to be better fighters. And when they have learned "the various levels of the internal" I tell them to learn how to fight all over again.

rob_liberti
08-25-2008, 06:40 PM
Dan,

Gee I must sound like John McCain with his 7 houses...being out of touch and all.

But, Dan, I see you are a bit more confident now that the rest of your "young friends" have massed for randori. Popular vote, gang mentality still does not show or prove your skill. How old are you?

Yondan...hehehe. I bet, Rob must outrank Dan Harden. So, that doesnt say much for his inflated rank.

Come over and let's play. Show me your videos. You guys are good at being "movie critics" not so good at making videos, decent at acting though.

We aren't really tearing each other up. At least not in "words". :)

No one is saying Dan has rank in aikido. I am saying he has incredible ability to do and teach aiki.

Why do you feel my rank is inflated? I actually agree. But in my experience the aikikai system takes into account people growing into rank a bit.

I feel I need to study a lot more of what Dan is teaching so I can better execute what Saotome sensei, Ikeda Sensei, and Gleason sensei (as well as others like Ledyard sensei) are teaching me in aikido. I am starting to be able to perform beyond mind/body unification such that I can be doing somethings with my body and some different things with my mind - which is my working definition of yondan. I wasn't brilliant enough mentally or physically to steal that too well (meaning too quickly) from my aikido teachers. Dan's approach offered a much clearer path for me - and several others.

When you consider people's rank and what the commensurate ability to that rank is/was supposed to be I think MANY people in aikido are far over ranked. They tend to get rank by sticking around for a long time and rarely getting much beyond sandan ability. That was my perception before I met Dan. Now I just more firmly believe that. I hadn't realized that I had set my image of the "bar" too low.

Rob

PS

It seems clear that your feelings are hurt, but I haven't said anything nasty to you. Relax.

Aikibu
08-25-2008, 06:55 PM
Hi Mark
That pretty much did it for me. The skills displayed were self explanatory. The attitude? Rather surprising. When there's nothing of substance to say- its personal attack time
Oh well.

With all due respect Dan. You've been talking and critiquing others here for years, and you have yet to put yourself out there "on camera"? What point of reference do we dear readers have to draw on?

Heck you sure are quick to "jump on" Matsuoka Sensei, Abe Sensei, and a host of others...Sadly even though most say you have phenomenal skills of which I have no doubt... There remains that void between talking the talk and walking the walk. We dear readers eagerly await the day when you submit visual proof. :)

Again with all due respect...I can't wait to see your videos...:)

William Hazen

Upyu
08-25-2008, 07:12 PM
Heck you sure are quick to "jump on" Matsuoka Sensei, Abe Sensei, and a host of others...Sadly even though most say you have phenomenal skills of which I have no doubt... There remains that void between talking the talk and walking the walk. We dear readers eagerly await the day when you submit visual proof. :)

Again with all due respect...I can't wait to see your videos...:)


This is like.... the best thread as far as tabloid threads go.
I'm running out of popcorn guys! :D

Upyu
08-25-2008, 07:16 PM
Chen Beng is a "young man" with good foundation. But, obviously, he is using "external" more than "internal" energy. His use of "noise" and sound energy indicate a desire to impress his audience to what "they can relate to and understand".


Actually he did that to give himself a boost of power, "heng" and "ha" = store and release. Eventually you don't need the sound, but using it helps to more strongly activate the release mechanism.
Btw that's a bread and butter concept for Tai Chi (not just Chen) but you would know that wouldn't you, mr tai chi mastah :D

gdandscompserv
08-25-2008, 07:20 PM
I can't wait to see Dan's barn.:D

DH
08-25-2008, 07:29 PM
With all due respect Dan. You've been talking and critiquing others here for years, and you have yet to put yourself out there "on camera"? What point of reference do we dear readers have to draw on?

Heck you sure are quick to "jump on" Matsuoka Sensei, Abe Sensei, and a host of others...Sadly even though most say you have phenomenal skills of which I have no doubt... There remains that void between talking the talk and walking the walk. We dear readers eagerly await the day when you submit visual proof. :)

Again with all due respect...I can't wait to see your videos...:)

William Hazen

Hey Bud
No offense taken, but I'm giving you the rasberries anyway.

I could care less about videos, and have no interest in doing them whatsoever.
There is no "void" for me walking-the- walk that I can see. Why? It does not require me being vetting by you or anyone else. Every time one of you touched me, it satisfied you. It doesn'tchange what i was doing to walk that walk twenty years go, ten, or last week. Nor will affect what I will do tommorrow, next year, or ten years from now. I am a training madman, I was training in 8 hour sessions long before aikiweb or E-Budo and don't expect to change any time soon.

If I see people in front of me-I wire frame them and fix them and show them ways to improve their structure and move, If I see a video its the same thing. I actually avoid most all videos on the net and commenting on them. You just happened to see ones I replied to.
If folks are confident enought to call themselves teachers, or experts, and charge money for giving technical expert advice- then whats the beef? Joe here is a great example. If you tell people you are doing internal arts and you look like that-people need to know how that looks to others they know have real skills. Or in the case of him stating to Mark M. "I will teach you any weapon you want to know!" Thankfully some things speak for themselves.
In Aikido if teachers claim expertise in aiki, but are either a mess or seriously lacking, someone needs to cry foul. I think we have had quite enough nonsense foisted on us as MA students. The last people to complain should be those who self proclaim their expertise and charge for it with the tacit agreement that they will help YOU improve.
I make no such claims. I just help where and when I can. Seems to be working.
So consider, that way back William, I never asked to be vetted in the first place-you fellas more or less pressed for it.
I haven't changed.

sunny liberti
08-25-2008, 07:41 PM
roflmao!!!!

Rob, I'll make more popcorn . . . we need plenty for this thread! :D

Dan Austin
08-25-2008, 07:52 PM
I'll probably get "carded" for saying the obvious, but these threads have gone to hell anyway - they could be great if people would at least just stop responding to lawyers with mental problems.

MM
08-25-2008, 08:05 PM
I'll probably get "carded" for saying the obvious, but these threads have gone to hell anyway - they could be great if people would at least just stop responding to lawyers with mental problems.

Um, lawyers with mental problems? Isn't that redundant? :D

mjchip
08-25-2008, 08:05 PM
roflmao!!!!

Rob, I'll make more popcorn . . . we need plenty for this thread! :D

I just came back from my dojo and it looks like it's time for me to make some popcorn as well. I'm curious why every *internal* thread turns into a "call out Dan Harden" one.......

As an aside, no students came to class tonight so I had a treat......got to do 2 hours of solo training. This stuff continues to amaze me.

It is unfortunate but after only 17yrs of hard Aikido training my body is wrecked, the most serious damage being instability of both shoulders due to multiple dislocations, torn right biceps tendon, kneecap tracking problems, torn ligaments in one of my fingers, and a neck injury (that was actually from ground work with a BJJ'er).

The more I do the solo exercises the more I can feel my neck, back, shoulders permanently release tension. My shoulders are getting range of motion back but strangely seem more stable wrt posterior subluxation which has plagued them for the last decade or so. I've heard these exercises touted as "healing" and although initially skeptical, I'm starting to believe it!

The other strange thing is tonight I tried doing some weapons kata and I found my body getting really fatigued. It feels like the solo work is beginning to "rewire" things. Weird.....but cool.

Mark

Upyu
08-25-2008, 08:07 PM
I'll probably get "carded" for saying the obvious, but these threads have gone to hell anyway - they could be great if people would at least just stop responding to lawyers with mental problems.

in keeping with the entertainment tonight ->
http://www.extremelysmart.com/humor/lawyerjokes.php

DH
08-25-2008, 08:11 PM
Hi Dan
To be fair, I offered some critiques, some vidoes of chen, some commentary on why the vidoes look different, some comments on Joes and what he was lacking...
I got nothing back by way of actual discussion. All I got was attacks and requests for a Job application resume from an attorney with nothing to say-and nothing to show. Thanks for the support guys, but what aout some opinion of the videos?
So Dan, what did you see in the various videos of everyone?

Aikibu
08-25-2008, 08:45 PM
Hey Bud
No offense taken, but I'm giving you the rasberries anyway.

I could care less about videos, and have no interest in doing them whatsoever.
There is no "void" for me walking-the- walk that I can see. Why? It does not require me being vetting by you or anyone else. Every time one of you touched me, it satisfied you. It doesn'tchange what i was doing to walk that walk twenty years go, ten, or last week. Nor will affect what I will do tommorrow, next year, or ten years from now. I am a training madman, I was training in 8 hour sessions long before aikiweb or E-Budo and don't expect to change any time soon.

If I see people in front of me-I wire frame them and fix them and show them ways to improve their structure and move, If I see a video its the same thing. I actually avoid most all videos on the net and commenting on them. You just happened to see ones I replied to.
If folks are confident enought to call themselves teachers, or experts, and charge money for giving technical expert advice- then whats the beef? Joe here is a great example. If you tell people you are doing internal arts and you look like that-people need to know how that looks to others they know have real skills. Or in the case of him stating to Mark M. "I will teach you any weapon you want to know!" Thankfully some things speak for themselves.
In Aikido if teachers claim expertise in aiki, but are either a mess or seriously lacking, someone needs to cry foul. I think we have had quite enough nonsense foisted on us as MA students. The last people to complain should be those who self proclaim their expertise and charge for it with the tacit agreement that they will help YOU improve.
I make no such claims. I just help where and when I can. Seems to be working.
So consider, that way back William, I never asked to be vetted in the first place-you fellas more or less pressed for it.
I haven't changed.

Thanks raspberries go well with cream. All of what you said makes perfect sense but again I am not speaking for the folks who will get the lucky chance to work with you and to be honest there is only one of you. I have no doubt that when one of your top students visits me( as he promised when we talked A good Dude by the way) that he will represent you well.

Nope Dan I am talking about the folks here who will never be able to visit you....Look at it this way... We have on film over the last almost one hundred years every top Martial Artist and their expression. We talk about them all the time, and reference what they recorded on film. Doing so has helped thousands of folks understand them and their Art...

Why not you?

That is what I am asking you about and hopefully you'll change your mind one day. :)

William Hazen

DH
08-25-2008, 09:15 PM
Nope Dan I am talking about the folks here who will never be able to visit you....Look at it this way... We have on film over the last almost one hundred years every top Martial Artist and their expression. We talk about them all the time, and reference what they recorded on film. Doing so has helped thousands of folks understand them and their Art...

Why not you?

That is what I am asking you about and hopefully you'll change your mind one day. :)

William Hazen

Well, every top martial artist in the world should probably be on film I guess. That's why I'm not. I'll let ya know when I have something worth filiming.:rolleyes: Don't wait up.
In the mean time -from what I have seen-I wish more "top martial artists of the world" would reconsider the estimation of their own efforts.

rob_liberti
08-25-2008, 09:17 PM
I have no doubt when one of your top students promised to visit me that he will represent you well.

Jesus William! I sincerely hope you were not referring to me. I promised to visit you, and I will happily keep that promise. However, I am not in any way one of Dan's top students. I'm planning to go train there tomorrow. That kind of talk might get me a beating.

About the OP video. I see an awesome central pivot at 33-35. I notice his trunk twist without his right hip going around. I assume there is an aiki-age set up on his right hand side. I was surprised that his head was not so straight at 34. His ability to receive into his body with his bent knees is a lot better than mine!

Rob

tuturuhan
08-25-2008, 09:33 PM
Jesus William! I sincerely hope you were not referring to me. I promised to visit you, and I will happily keep that promise. However, I am not in any way one of Dan's top students. I'm planning to go train there tomorrow. That kind of talk might get me a beating.

About the OP video. I see an awesome central pivot at 33-35. I notice his trunk twist without his right hip going around. I assume there is an aiki-age set up on his right hand side. I was surprised that his head was not so straight at 34. His ability to receive into his body with his bent knees is a lot better than mine!

Rob

William and Rob.

Please invite me when Rob comes. I will most certainly come.

rob_liberti
08-25-2008, 11:06 PM
The deal I made with William was that when I make significant progress to the point that Dan doesn't mind me showing things I learned from him in totally watered down/lame way, then I'll be happy to come visit William and show what I've been learning. I'm interested in William's aikido approach to MMA as well. I respect his love for aikido, his approach, his honesty, and what I know about his history. Also, he has never randomly declared me over ranked.

Basically I decided that when I could perform Dan's super punch (I can't describe it that well) I would be ready. I'll come visit and as long as we are avoiding cracked sternums, I'll be happy play the knock each other across the room game with anyone William invites to the party.

So can we all be friends now? This is turning into bullshido. I'm having to go do a throw down for god's sake.

Rob

Dan Austin
08-25-2008, 11:19 PM
Hi Dan
To be fair, I offered some critiques, some vidoes of chen, some commentary on why the vidoes look different, some comments on Joes and what he was lacking...
I got nothing back by way of actual discussion. All I got was attacks and requests for a Job application resume from an attorney with nothing to say-and nothing to show. Thanks for the support guys, but what aout some opinion of the videos?
So Dan, what did you see in the various videos of everyone?

You have to realize you're dealing with "interesting" personalities that are simply locked as they are. To any martial artist it's clear that Erick's martial honor has been put to the question, yet he's avoided answering for his and his teacher's comments about your skills, avoided walking the walk and getting together as martial ethics would dictate, and yet he keeps posting as if it just hasn't happened.

As for Joe, I don't see anything like what I see with Chen Bing, but my opinion will be dismissed as will all others that disagree. The fact that he's oblivious to Chen Bing's impeccable credentials apart from what you can see him doing on video says everything it needs to say. He might credit that Chen Xiaowang is OK just because he's older than Chen Bing but who knows. ;)

Hebrew Hammer
08-25-2008, 11:27 PM
My God Ladds...all this passive aggressiveness is making me hungry! If I may make a few humble suggestions:

1) let it go...
2) no really....let it go.
3) Try blending once in while...this is Aikido isn't it? (I know I'm gonna be sorry for that comment). I'm all for good public discourse but gentlemen please feel free to take a thread or two off. :)

Have a nice day....

Aikibu
08-26-2008, 12:47 AM
Well, every top martial artist in the world should probably be on film I guess. That's why I'm not. I'll let ya know when I have something worth filiming.:rolleyes: Don't wait up.
In the mean time -from what I have seen-I wish more "top martial artists of the world" would reconsider the estimation of their own efforts.

You're making my point for me Dan. It's not you who says you're a top Martial Artist It's your students here... On E-budo and all over the Martial Arts Web (so to speak)

The opinion of a teacher's students is the only thing that matters Dan. Heck with all due respect if it was not for the testimony of your students here I would think you're just another Hot Headed Irish Blowhard like me. :D LOL

It's a whole other story with shameless self promoters like Dillman and you have to understand I have been there and done that and the great Martial Artists don't really have to say much... They let their teaching do the talking.

So again with all due respect I admire your humility but your excuse for not being recorded is still pretty weak. :) And weak is a word we Irish Mokes love as much as Cranberry Juice....Right Dan. :D

Take Care,

William Hazen

Aikibu
08-26-2008, 12:50 AM
Jesus William! I sincerely hope you were not referring to me. I promised to visit you, and I will happily keep that promise. However, I am not in any way one of Dan's top students. I'm planning to go train there tomorrow. That kind of talk might get me a beating. Rob
Well in that case I hope Dan beats you silly for coming out of the closet. I certainly did not refer to you by name. I promised I wouldn't remember ha ha ha ha ha. :D

See you soon I hope. :)

William Hazen

PS I said it out of respect for Rob Dan... So at least let him live. :D

Aikibu
08-26-2008, 12:55 AM
William and Rob.

Please invite me when Rob comes. I will most certainly come.

With all due respect Joseph I will meet you first. My Dojo is a place where folks from different backgrounds can share what they know and it's not THUNDERDOME!!! :)

As we used to say....

"I'm just a simple guy trying to make his way in the universe." Jango Fett Star Wars II Attack of the Clones

Namaste Sensei Joseph

William Hazen

Gernot Hassenpflug
08-26-2008, 01:38 AM
....Look at it this way... We have on film over the last almost one hundred years every top Martial Artist and their expression. We talk about them all the time, and reference what they recorded on film. Doing so has helped thousands of folks understand them and their Art...

Um.....! :eek: :crazy: :confused:

rob_liberti
08-26-2008, 05:33 AM
Well in that case I hope Dan beats you silly for coming out of the closet. I certainly did not refer to you by name. I promised I wouldn't remember ha ha ha ha ha. :D

See you soon I hope. :)

William Hazen

PS I said it out of respect for Rob Dan... So at least let him live. :D

I'm not sure you are getting this. It's a MMA dojo that is powered by aiki. I may be in the top 250 of Dan's all time students. But I don't see myself - and neither does anyone else - as one of Dan's top students. I'm not even Gleason sensei's top student in aikido.

Let me try to make this abundantly clear. When I think of some of the folks who actually are the top students there, I think about them doing these basically terrible striking drills with Dan and each other. I'm in no way shape or form ready to survive those drills - forget about when it gets more alive.

I'm holding my lines okay now. I get my structure going a whole lot sooner to when I first walk in the door as opposed to it taking 45+ minutes. I'm doing some nasty yoga stretches that are helping me get my trunk moving much more freely - pivoting around my spine so I can eventually do some of the aiki powered striking Dan does. And, I'm making decent progress. But there are many people training there who are FAR past me in ability.

I'm hoping I can get there more often and that my yoga and active isololated stretching will help me learn faster (by undoing many of the body issues that are in my way). I'm actually seeing that as a potential niche for me in the long run. I just may be the person you want to talk to if you would love to do what Dan or Mike or Aukuzawa are doing but you just can't figure out how to get the necessary flexibility to do it. And then again, maybe not.

In terms of the Chen Bing clip - my thoughts are what that guy did at 33-35 probably would power a pretty devastating punch - but I don't know if he can get his intent all the way to his hands. (maybe he can - I would like to see him hit someone)

Rob

MM
08-26-2008, 07:06 AM
I just came back from my dojo and it looks like it's time for me to make some popcorn as well. I'm curious why every *internal* thread turns into a "call out Dan Harden" one.......

As an aside, no students came to class tonight so I had a treat......got to do 2 hours of solo training. This stuff continues to amaze me.

It is unfortunate but after only 17yrs of hard Aikido training my body is wrecked, the most serious damage being instability of both shoulders due to multiple dislocations, torn right biceps tendon, kneecap tracking problems, torn ligaments in one of my fingers, and a neck injury (that was actually from ground work with a BJJ'er).

The more I do the solo exercises the more I can feel my neck, back, shoulders permanently release tension. My shoulders are getting range of motion back but strangely seem more stable wrt posterior subluxation which has plagued them for the last decade or so. I've heard these exercises touted as "healing" and although initially skeptical, I'm starting to believe it!

The other strange thing is tonight I tried doing some weapons kata and I found my body getting really fatigued. It feels like the solo work is beginning to "rewire" things. Weird.....but cool.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Glad to hear that the exercises are helping. And I'd have to agree -- the exercises feel like they rewire the body to work a different way. Cool on the one hand and a pain on the other. :)

DH
08-26-2008, 09:38 AM
Hey Rob
I have some visiting Internal Chinese MA ers coming tonight. One of whom -a bagua guy- has trained with Ark, one -a Taiji guy-who has trained with me several times when he is up here- he has some power you can see and feel. Those two are geat guys-they are bringing others as well.
I know you have felt WHJ, so this yet another chance to meet some decent players.

akiy
08-26-2008, 10:49 AM
Hi folks,

Can you all please stop hijacking threads to discuss so-and-so's personal skill abilities and go back to addressing the topic at hand?

I have to say that continuously witnessing multiple threads degenerate into this kind of personal discussion is quite disappointing. You're all adults. You've all been asked to watch both what and how you write. Yet, threads keep devolving into this kind of personal vitriol. I'm tired of it, really.

Shape up, people. STOP IT.

Thread closed.

-- Jun