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Will Prusner
08-14-2008, 03:54 PM
I've read alot of posts lately about resistance and atemi. After watching hours of video of the founder, I notice that because of the demonstrative nature of the footage (i assume), technique seems to have the desired result the first time, every time. Since we and our technique is all fallible, what would you call what you would do if a technique fails to produce the result desired? This question is being asked in the context of an unavoidable violent encounter, not during cooperative training on the mat.

If thats too vague, hypothetically, someone swings at your face (insert attack of your choice here). The situation for applying ikkyo (insert technique of your choice here) presents itself. You perform the ikkyo (chosen technique), but for some reason (maybe their balance was not taken or they were able to regain it) you find yourself holding the arm of an angry individual, hellbent on your demise, who is now more prepared to resist further technique.

Would you maintain proper posture and alignment and see what possibilities develop? Would you wait for them to launch another attack?

Would you throw atemi in order to open more possibilities for aikido
technique (and/or to break person's resistance) or maybe throw atemi and just keep striking until the threat was neutralized?

Would you revert to technique from another art you've studied, possibly some kind of stand up grappling (maybe like judo)? Would you throw atemi in preparation for this kind of technique?

Would you call a "do over"?:D

Would you still call it Aikido when it was all said and done?

I realize the actual response will vary according to which, if any, other martial arts you have studied, but i'm more interested in how you would classify your reaction to the worst case scenario, your aikido technique fails at a crucial moment.

In other words, what picks up where Aikido leaves off (if you believe it's possible for aikido to "leave off" at all)?

W.

ChrisMoses
08-14-2008, 04:08 PM
In other words, what picks up where Aikido leaves off (if you believe it's possible for aikido to "leave off" at all)?

W.

Jujutsu, which is why it should be the foundation for good aikido. Then when the super subtle stuff doesn't go down like you planned, you still have something besides good intentions... :)

Josh Reyer
08-14-2008, 04:16 PM
Technique will fail, but that's not the end of the aikido. As long as I have a connection with the opponent, the aikido continues. So ikkyo becomes irimi-nage becomes koshinage becomes kokyunage. It will probably not look pretty, not like all the demonstrations. But, ideally, the aikido should never start and never stop. It should always be in effect.

Conrad Gus
08-14-2008, 05:01 PM
My Sensei recently told me that truly effective aikido isn't the ability to make shihonage work on somebody trying to kill you with a knife or broken bottle. Applied aikido is the principles being applied in any situation, no matter what that might end up looking like.


diffuse the situation
run away
enter and atemi
go around and unbalance
et cetera


You're not going to execute a beautiful yonkyo on someone weilding a machete at your face. That's just crazy.

Alfonso
08-14-2008, 06:23 PM
Technique will fail, but that's not the end of the aikido. As long as I have a connection with the opponent, the aikido continues. So ikkyo becomes irimi-nage becomes koshinage becomes kokyunage. It will probably not look pretty, not like all the demonstrations. But, ideally, the aikido should never start and never stop. It should always be in effect.

I think this is a very good way of putting it. Waza are endings , set pieces for study.

Amassus
08-14-2008, 07:14 PM
I agree with the others thus far.

Aikido doesn't teach technique alone. All the principles behind the techniques are what will keep you safe. Dwelling on a technique will trap your mind and the end would be ugly.

Will Prusner
08-14-2008, 07:55 PM
...aikido isn't the ability to make shihonage work on somebody...

and

Dwelling on a technique will trap your mind and the end would be ugly.

Right, I agree completely. I'm not asking about forcing a technique or even being committed to a particular technique. To clarify, the technique fails, the person is now resisting. If they were caught off guard by the failed technique, they might be expecting something along the same lines if they launch another attack. Is the jig up? Is it time for Atemi in an attempt to get the juice flowing in a more conducive manner? Would you go on the offensive, or wait for them to make a move?

MM
08-14-2008, 09:06 PM
Somewhere it's written that Ueshiba talked about takemusu aiki. I guess one of the translations could be viewed as spontaneous technique.

This is not predefined technique. And most acknowledge that. So, spontaneous means something just happens. In that view, whatever happens, no matter what it looks like will be some sort of "technique". We train to recognize the principles behind the techniques, not to apply "techniques".

Now, we look to aiki. If aiki is something along the lines of "appropriately matching", then we can view aiki as something that happens inside you. No resistance in aikido, remember? So, there is an appropriate matching going on inside oneself that goes beyond resisting the attack.

Putting that together, when you have takemusu aiki, you have an instantaneously trained body that appropriately matches whatever attack, or force, is trying to affect you.

And, in that sense, there is never "what comes after aikido". It isn't really a matter of thinking that a technique fails and something else must follow. Rather it is training the body, mind, and spirit, to spontaneously and instantaneously match in a very relaxed, sensitive manner to create the appropriate response.

IMO anyway,
Mark

Hebrew Hammer
08-14-2008, 10:21 PM
Technique will fail, but that's not the end of the aikido. As long as I have a connection with the opponent, the aikido continues. So ikkyo becomes irimi-nage becomes koshinage becomes kokyunage. It will probably not look pretty, not like all the demonstrations. But, ideally, the aikido should never start and never stop. It should always be in effect.

Josh, great piece of writing here...I'd frame that if I were you and put it up on your wall....I'm gonna plagiarize it myself. :D

Dathan Camacho
08-14-2008, 11:05 PM
Very interesting thread. I'm not the voice of experience, but this thread reminds me of the cliche "failing to prepare is preparing to fail."

I would expect that if your training is solely comprised of kata, you'd be suprised by a situation where your technique fails, and it might catch you off guard. However, if you've incorporated randori in your training, maybe you'll have been in situations where your technique failed multiple times, and be better prepared to improvise?

Our sensei rotates us through 3 levels of training, roughly:

1) kata (the foundation)
2) randori w/ mild resistance (the application)
3) randori w/ full resistance (the reality check)

For level 3, uke wears boxing gloves and nage wears head gear and a mouth piece. =)

I really like this multi-level approach, because I think it helps me find out what I know, and more importantly, what I think I know, but really don't. =)

My sensei learned this approach from Meritt Stevens Shihan, who taught Aikido and self defense to the department of corrections officers in Ohio. I'm guessing that other dojo's have similar approaches?

Buck
08-14-2008, 11:12 PM
Somewhere it's written that Ueshiba talked about takemusu aiki. I guess one of the translations could be viewed as spontaneous technique.

This is not predefined technique. And most acknowledge that. So, spontaneous means something just happens. In that view, whatever happens, no matter what it looks like will be some sort of "technique". We train to recognize the principles behind the techniques, not to apply "techniques".

Now, we look to aiki. If aiki is something along the lines of "appropriately matching", then we can view aiki as something that happens inside you. No resistance in aikido, remember? So, there is an appropriate matching going on inside oneself that goes beyond resisting the attack.

Putting that together, when you have takemusu aiki, you have an instantaneously trained body that appropriately matches whatever attack, or force, is trying to affect you.

And, in that sense, there is never "what comes after aikido". It isn't really a matter of thinking that a technique fails and something else must follow. Rather it is training the body, mind, and spirit, to spontaneously and instantaneously match in a very relaxed, sensitive manner to create the appropriate response.

IMO anyway,
Mark

I look at mind, body, spirit and technique as a unified whole that has to take place for a well executed technique. I was taught that early on.

Mind is correct attitude, being focused, without distraction. There is that photo of O'Sensei with the staff over his head and the look in his eye says it all.

Body is unification of movement, coordination. You move as one unit. You train your body, to move as one unit. Naturally, we move segmented, disjointed, limbs and core don't work in sync. To move as one unit our limbs and core move together to generate the greatest power with the least effort or strain. This helps the body relax allowing it to moves unrestricted to generate power etc. We train our bodies to relax because we tend to tend to tense up naturally when exerting effort. This restricts our movements and motion.

Spirit is the right energy, it is the willingness to do the work. To go the extra mile. To be willing to use 110%.

Technique, alone I was told, is an empty shell, it needs all the other things to make it work right. I don't think allot of people just single out technique and call that Aikido. Aikido is like being good at things like sports that take the mind, body, and spirit together in order to be good.

I think those few who only see Aikido technically and only focus on technique need to see what it takes to be good at that technique. It doesn't come over night.

There is no end to Aikido, just those who don't see the infinite matrix that is Aikido. And if your technique fails, which mine does, it isn't because you need to get a patch to fix it. If your technique is failing, you might have to look deeper inside yourself and find what needs to be looked at closer. Maybe there isn't enough spirit, mind, or body. Maybe you need a better teacher. Maybe you need to be a better student.

Aikido is endless that makes it complete, you can always improve on what you do. There are allways new levels. You can always grow and develop. O'Sensei did Aikido until he died, and so has so many others, all of them grew and developed. I think that is why calligraphy is so important. That is why Aikido is also an art. There is beauty in that.

I don't think there is an Aikido after-life. Aikido is endless, maybe it is just that some people aren't endless.:)

jennifer paige smith
08-14-2008, 11:17 PM
In the end, Aikido is in the heart.

Buck
08-14-2008, 11:32 PM
If you are really looking for a spot on, foot stomping, flag planting "end" to Aikido, O'Sensei gave it to us by saying that self-victory is the true victory. Who has come to that end?

Buck
08-14-2008, 11:49 PM
After a thought and playing with the Chinese magic ring set, maybe an end would be boredom, impatience, frustration, looking for short cuts, etc. that would be an end. No that would be a death. What comes after that is anyone guess.

Buck
08-15-2008, 12:03 AM
Now after a couple of shots of Patron Silver, and giving up on the rings, I looked up some Doka and by the spirits of the worm and Agave they guided me to this wise purport from Kisshomaru Ueshiba. "The aim of Aikido is a kindness of heart expressed through this spirit of budo." Wow, how great is that, I went to it spontaneously and instantaneously, must be Doka ki working inside of me.

This is Aikiweb's Doka for the day:
To command the forest of enemy blades arrayed before you,
Know that the enemy's spirit/mind is your shield."

- Morihei Ueshiba

It all works as one.

Will Prusner
08-15-2008, 01:46 AM
Thanks everybody for the interesting thoughts. I tend to agree with the idea that Aikido never really ends. Even after a violent encounter is over, the blending, matching, harmonizing continues. I also believe that if one is capable of being victorious over oneself, people and situations which once appeared threatening may not seem so much anymore. I find myself thinking about O'Sensei's 1925 satori moment, in which afterwards, technique played second fiddle to his true understanding of budo. I guess it was kind of a trick question, but I probably wouldn't have realized it if I hadn't asked. For me, If I am existing with Aikido principles, it is impossible for a technique to "fail", as one apparent failure is in actuality an opportunity for deeper understanding of myself and the world around me.

Bryan Sproles
08-15-2008, 03:00 AM
To me, the most obvious example of "if one technique fails, move on to something else" is Judo. Your opponent doesn't sit around waiting for you to throw them with a tai otoshi or koshinage.

I've been watching a lot of Judo from the Olympics lately, and if Judo means "gentle way", it sure doesn't LOOK that way :)

Most throws you see in Judo *are* ugly - very rarely do you see someone literally flying through the air as though he/she were a willing recipient of the throw, as you would see in practice.

Too bad they barred shihonage from Judo...talk about taking someone directly on their back -- ippon! :D

I agree with the idea of - if my ikkyo or nikkyo doesn't work, don't think about what to do next, because you probably won't have time. That's what practicing combinations is for :)

-Bryan

JamesC
08-15-2008, 07:41 AM
Would you throw atemi in order to open more possibilities for aikido
technique

Wait...atemi isn't aikido?:drool:

To me it seems like you're suggesting that if you don't succeed in neutralizing or projecting on your first try then whatever you do after isn't aikido.

That's kind of like saying that if you don't land your first elbow strike then you aren't doing muay thai.

Mark Uttech
08-15-2008, 12:22 PM
Onegaishimasu. Looking for what comes after is like looking for the answer to what happens after someone or something dies.

In gassho,

Mark

Trish Greene
08-15-2008, 12:51 PM
Wait...atemi isn't aikido?:drool:

To me it seems like you're suggesting that if you don't succeed in neutralizing or projecting on your first try then whatever you do after isn't aikido.

That's kind of like saying that if you don't land your first elbow strike then you aren't doing muay thai.

Wait...doesn't Atemi move their mind away from their strike, which then will allow you to enter?

BK Barker
08-15-2008, 04:37 PM
Wait...doesn't Atemi move their mind away from their strike, which then will allow you to enter?

Ahhhh..... I would believe Atemi could do much more then that and that you should enter no matter what... now how you enter would be in the way that you train. I bet I could safely say that some people train with more intent then others.

mickeygelum
08-15-2008, 06:18 PM
Now after a couple of shots of Patron Silver...(snip)...the spirits of the worm and Agave they guided me

This is usually how most disposable ukes apply for the position...:rolleyes:

Train well,

Mickey

JamesDavid
08-15-2008, 06:40 PM
In response to the original post. If the first technique doesn't work use a different one.
In this specific example. You have attempted ikkajo and they just stand there. Well lets assume you have managed to rotate their arm across the your centre. But you didn't get their balance and they didn't fall over. Enter with the point of your elbow to their face and finish off with a sokumen into the concrete. You could try the sokumen without the face strike but it won't be as reliable.

One aspect of your post that I find perplexing is that suggest that you might do something that isn't aikido. You shouldn't limit your idea of what self defense or aikido is. Even the most advanced parishioners in aikido are not so arrogant to think they can win encounters without atemi. Aikido footwork is designed to allow you to deliver powerful blows either with a weapon or without.

Will Prusner
08-15-2008, 08:04 PM
The Atemi question is interesting to me because (and please correct and educate me if i'm wrong), in my EXTREMELY limited experience, in class at my home dojo, the other dojos i've visited and footage i've seen online of dojos around the world, i've never seen an aikido class practicing full-contact strikes or doing any bag work (maybe the shotokan guys do, i really wouldnt know). So i'm drawing the conclusion that if atemi is used, it will most likely be drawn from another art or style that an individual has studied. For instance, if a person has studied Muay thai, I'd assume that there atemi is going to look rather similar to the strikes learned in their muay thai training, unless the Aikido sensei is committed to teaching a different way of striking (i've never really seen anybody get corrected on technicalities of striking form, like i'd expect in a more striking based art, like TKD). So if a person who has studied muay thai, uses a strike from muay thai, but uses it in accord with the core principles of aikido, we're still going to call it Aikido, right?

I heard O'sensei demanded his students have experience in another style before joining his classes. Could this be why?

BK Barker
08-15-2008, 08:11 PM
Maybe the question should be... does an Atemi have to a hard physical strike/motion to be effective.....

Will Prusner
08-15-2008, 08:19 PM
Maybe the question should be... does an Atemi have to a hard physical strike/motion to be effective.....

Right, I guess that has more to do with how you are trying to get their body to react, in which direction you want the center to move.

But in the interest of keeping yourself safe, even a weak strike, if thrown without some knowledge of correct striking form can lead to damage in the hand and wrist.

Buck
08-15-2008, 09:47 PM
Right, I guess that has more to do with how you are trying to get their body to react, in which direction you want the center to move.

But in the interest of keeping yourself safe, even a weak strike, if thrown without some knowledge of correct striking form can lead to damage in the hand and wrist.

For the weak strike, if you hold to the traditional closed fist strike with the knuckles, on a hard target, yes.

I don't know what types of strikes are outlined originally in Aikido, but for this discussion an open hand strike for example to or toward a soft can be very deceptive and effective even if it is a weak strike.

If you really look at it a effective strike to a soft target really doesn't involve allot of skill, and doesn't result injury. Unlike the traditional closed fist hand strike to a hard target improperly used results in injury. A open hand strike is more deceptive and more likely to get a reaction that will open or move the center. If you use a traditional close fist the reaction will be highly defensive because it is so recognizable, thus, the center is less likely to be accessible or moved. Most likely the defensive body reaction to an on coming typical close fist leads to protecting the center from moving in a bad way. We are talking about a single static hit, and not a wild barrage of flying fists traveling like a speeding freight train?

Martin Goodyear
08-16-2008, 04:37 AM
Jujutsu, which is why it should be the foundation for good aikido. Then when the super subtle stuff doesn't go down like you planned, you still have something besides good intentions... :)

Eloquentlty put. I really must get round to it.

Does anyone ever get the feeling that we're working backwards? This isn't a criticism, I rather like it. But aikido is an art of such high ideals that training tends not to focus on when we fail to smoothly lead our attackers mind and body into a just-stern-enough lesson on the error of their ways. So once you get a little way along the aikido road, "what if..." becomes an inevitable question for anyone who wants martial and art.

Roy Dean mentioned in a BJJ YouTube that you learn the moves, but it's the in-between-moves stuff that's really important. Same thing here, I think. I have found that teaching beginners who don't follow is a good way to start problem-solving, and can teach you about atemi opportunities.

On that note, regarding the scenario, a quick atemi wouldn't hurt (you, that is).

Nice thread,
Matin

JamesC
08-16-2008, 09:02 AM
Roy Dean mentioned in a BJJ YouTube that you learn the moves, but it's the in-between-moves stuff that's really important.

I think that's a brilliant observation.

Daniel Ranger-Holt
09-01-2008, 01:56 AM
But aikido is an art of such high ideals that training tends not to focus on when we fail to smoothly lead our attackers mind and body into a just-stern-enough lesson on the error of their ways. So once you get a little way along the aikido road, "what if..." becomes an inevitable question

And i think its at this point where you've been studying for a while and you are still asking the what if question, where you should take another art up to compliment the Aikido.

Just the way the original poster was describing the fight scenario, suggests to me too much thinking going on here. This is a common Aikido mindset, i had this. In a real fight situation, REAL fighting, it just doesnt work like that at all.

You definately wont have time to apply techniques in the way described. You will probably be smacked in the nose by then. It's happened to me lol... trying to use "Aikido Techniques" In a real fight. Don't bother.

Some Aikido Techniques may come through in a scuffle or confrontation, but never focus on using them in a proper street confrontation. Just see what natuarally comes out. Again, too much thinking going on.

After Aikido, i would say take up another art, something that actually teaches you to hit people back. A lot of people out there don't really care much for the Aikido founders principles of peace.

Amir Krause
09-01-2008, 05:36 AM
And i think its at this point where you've been studying for a while and you are still asking the what if question, where you should take another art up to compliment the Aikido.

Just the way the original poster was describing the fight scenario, suggests to me too much thinking going on here. This is a common Aikido mindset, i had this. In a real fight situation, REAL fighting, it just doesnt work like that at all.

You definately wont have time to apply techniques in the way described. You will probably be smacked in the nose by then. It's happened to me lol... trying to use "Aikido Techniques" In a real fight. Don't bother.

Some Aikido Techniques may come through in a scuffle or confrontation, but never focus on using them in a proper street confrontation. Just see what naturally comes out. Again, too much thinking going on.

After Aikido, i would say take up another art, something that actually teaches you to hit people back. A lot of people out there don't really care much for the Aikido founders principles of peace.

I think you are stressing an important point. If one thinks of techniques in a fight, then he is not practicing any M.A. during that fight.
In any fight, the martial artist "body" should respond with techniques the same automatic way it responds when you wish to go somewhere (only toddlers have to think on placing their legs, adults simply walk to their destination without thinking on how to walk).

This is a general truth, of all M.A. Aikido is no different, if anything, the Aikido path was knowingly chosen as one of the more difficult ones to implement. In Aikido most techniques are responsive and should change all the time as the situation changes, some arts are less dependent on this at low levels.

When done correctly, the techniques used in Aikido are very efficient, even against resisting opponents. If you are know enouugh enough (I am not but my teacher is) you can see variations of the mostly the same techniques, but with less potential for harm used in Judo contests. One should point out these techniques existed and were tested and adopted by multiple Jujutsu styles, long before Aikido. Calling them "Aikido technique" is vain.

However, if you can force your opponent into a technique, you are probably not in a S.D. situation, since you are the stronger person.
In my Sensei dojo, we tell trainees who act this way, and do the techniques correctly that they are doing nice Jujutsu, and should now progress to Aikido. Aikido is aimed at the situation in which you really are the weaker person, and size is also on his side. The principles of Aiki are supposed to give you this edge.
Thus, you need to be very cool and keep your calm while you utilize your technical superiority combined with the principles of Aiki to inverse a very difficult situation you would have been at, had you not been such a superb Martial Artist.
Oh, and of course, pray for luck and that the other guy is not as talented and experianced, otherwise you may find you really lost all advantages.

As for the original question - Aikido comes after Aikido, and even more - in between. Many friends told me the qualuty of any martial artist is mostly seen in his foot work, between techniques. By foot work they did not mean kicks - rather, movement. And again - Aikido is no different.

Amir

Robert Cowham
09-01-2008, 06:02 AM
Cheng Hsin has a range of interactive "games" which I think can be very instructive and applicable to aikido.

- one person tries to do a technique/throw etc and the other is not allowed to block but only to "yield" or receive in such a way as to nullify the technique. As soon as one is successfully applied (usually not that many seconds!), you swap roles.

- both people can try to do techniques on each other, but again you are not allowed to block a technique

- blocking is then allowed.

Note that all techniques must be done with effortless power - no muscling. People usually don't do the final level until they have quite a bit of experience as it otherwise degenerates into muscle contest.

There are other variations on this, I am scratching the surface above. However, it really does teach flow and being in the moment, and adapting from one moment to the next to what your partner is really doing.

For an alternative view, of flow, connection, reaction etc, see
Aikido vs Tango: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG_tnefyOcc

Robert

SteveTrinkle
09-02-2008, 03:51 AM
In our dojo, beer comes after aikido.

Tony Wagstaffe
09-02-2008, 04:36 AM
I've read alot of posts lately about resistance and atemi. After watching hours of video of the founder, I notice that because of the demonstrative nature of the footage (i assume), technique seems to have the desired result the first time, every time. Since we and our technique is all fallible, what would you call what you would do if a technique fails to produce the result desired? This question is being asked in the context of an unavoidable violent encounter, not during cooperative training on the mat.

If thats too vague, hypothetically, someone swings at your face (insert attack of your choice here). The situation for applying ikkyo (insert technique of your choice here) presents itself. You perform the ikkyo (chosen technique), but for some reason (maybe their balance was not taken or they were able to regain it) you find yourself holding the arm of an angry individual, hellbent on your demise, who is now more prepared to resist further technique.

Would you maintain proper posture and alignment and see what possibilities develop? Would you wait for them to launch another attack?

Would you throw atemi in order to open more possibilities for aikido
technique (and/or to break person's resistance) or maybe throw atemi and just keep striking until the threat was neutralized?

Would you revert to technique from another art you've studied, possibly some kind of stand up grappling (maybe like judo)? Would you throw atemi in preparation for this kind of technique?

Would you call a "do over"?:D

Would you still call it Aikido when it was all said and done?

I realize the actual response will vary according to which, if any, other martial arts you have studied, but i'm more interested in how you would classify your reaction to the worst case scenario, your aikido technique fails at a crucial moment.

In other words, what picks up where Aikido leaves off (if you believe it's possible for aikido to "leave off" at all)?

W.

Only way to find out is practice your aikido with an uncooperative partner or uke..... no one can say what they will do because its all hypothetical...

Its practised that way in Shodokan/Tomiki aikido kyogi.... albeit with some restrictions.....

Walter Martindale
09-02-2008, 03:15 PM
In our dojo, beer comes after aikido.

I prefer shower after Aikido, then beer...
W

gregg block
09-04-2008, 06:01 PM
Use whatever works in the moment. if its a strike then strike, if its a kick then kick. dont trap yourself in technique, it is only a better cage and not freedom. I think Bruce Lee said it best..

Christopher Creutzig
09-06-2008, 12:56 PM
After Aikido, i would say take up another art, something that actually teaches you to hit people back. A lot of people out there don't really care much for the Aikido founders principles of peace.

I think that's the wrong way round. First learn a more traditional way of fighting (i.e., one that to a non-negligible part relies on having an “opponent” and hitting them). Then you can start to learn Aikido.

I know I started the wrong way, too -- I only had about a year of some more competitive fighting before starting Aikido. As I progress, I tend to believe I start understanding why Taiso required some basic familiarity (at least shodan) with some other martial art from aspiring students.

deathlinenetworks
09-14-2008, 04:56 AM
if an technique don't work, change to another one as quickly as possible. if that doesn't work, start punching and kicking :)

Chicko Xerri
09-14-2008, 05:19 AM
There's always Paris

dalen7
09-16-2008, 03:23 PM
hmmm...gotta be fluid.
'Be the water grasshopper' :)

Guess its time to pull out the 'Mike Tyson' and rip their ear of with your teeth. ;)

You do what you have to in the moment that is given to you.

Aikido is a label, and like all labels/words, it points beyond itself...
...unless of course you want to make an 'identity' out of it - which in that case will make it fallible.

Most people get caught up in some ego game when it comes to martial arts. Those that get it, typically wont ever need to use it.

Change the way you think...change the way you feel.
Change the way you think, and realize that fights wont typically come to you. ;)

Its all a game, life is a game...well, life is the 'dancer' and we are the 'dance' as Eckhart Tolle nicely put it. ;)

What dance do you want to be...or what story do you want?
That of the kungfu master who kicks butt? ;)
Or do you really want the path of peace?

There is no right and wrong, its all experience...thats why we are here. Like God trying to experience himself outside of him/herself, as it were. ;)
Peace

dAlen

GeneC
12-13-2008, 04:18 PM
I'd say look at the different scenarios. Imo, there's ony a few (of course, we could all get lucky):


1. Both have no experience- somebody could accidentally get hurt.

2. one has alot and one has very little- Obviously the one with alot will win.

3. Both have some- again, somebody might accidently get hurt. Usually the one with the stronger will wins.

4. Both has alot. This is what we train for, where, up against a hardened criminal or a punk kid MMA monster on steriods, you'll need alot more than Aikido to help you. You have to be prepared to bite off extremities, scratch out eyes, poke out eyes, beat to unconsciousness, cheat in whatever way, etc., to win. Not to mention have great stamina and will to live. The key to survival is to NOT run out of gas, NOT get knocked out, NOT get on bottom of a guard, NOT get surrounded, etc. If you do, you're done. LIke that scene in Saving Private Ryan, in the upstairs with the American soldier from Brooklyn and the German, with the bayonette, there's nothing scarier than realizing that your opponent is stronger than you and is about to kill you and there's not a darn thing you can do about it.

Also, fwiw, I would NOT rely on BJJ to finish a fight. Most good fighters nowadays knows BJJ. Besides, at no time do you want to find yourself on the ground, especially on your back.

Btw, my supplement to Aikido is a CWP and 9 rds of .45cal hollowpoint. There's NO WAY I'm gonna go toe to toe with a kid half my age or a hardened institutionalized felon.

Sorry, but until Aikido becomes a complete MA, able to defeat all others, a supplement is needed. It's all well and good to speak about spiritual stuff, like Zen and defeating yourself, etc, but the hard reality is if you don't take out your opponent, he's gonna take you, right now. Before you can say,"Please, don't."

Aikibu
12-14-2008, 10:04 PM
Maybe the question should be... does an Atemi have to a hard physical strike/motion to be effective.....

No.

William Hazen

Aikibu
12-14-2008, 10:18 PM
In my limited experiance what comes "after" is weapons work preferably Iaido or Kenjutsu. If you can learn incorporate the sword into your practice you will learn timing.. Irimi..Maai and Kokyu at speed Learning how to enter Ken te Ken has done wonders for Randori. The tip of a sword is a great training aid for the advancement of ones Aikido especially with learning how to handle the striking arts (since that seems to be where this conversation may be headed. LOL) :)

The sword also trains your arms to relax and helps keep your posture correct too.

William Hazen

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2008, 10:20 AM
I'd say look at the different scenarios. Imo, there's ony a few (of course, we could all get lucky):

1. Both have no experience- somebody could accidentally get hurt.

2. one has alot and one has very little- Obviously the one with alot will win.

3. Both have some- again, somebody might accidently get hurt. Usually the one with the stronger will wins.

4. Both has alot. This is what we train for, where, up against a hardened criminal or a punk kid MMA monster on steriods, you'll need alot more than Aikido to help you. You have to be prepared to bite off extremities, scratch out eyes, poke out eyes, beat to unconsciousness, cheat in whatever way, etc., to win. Not to mention have great stamina and will to live. The key to survival is to NOT run out of gas, NOT get knocked out, NOT get on bottom of a guard, NOT get surrounded, etc. If you do, you're done. LIke that scene in Saving Private Ryan, in the upstairs with the American soldier from Brooklyn and the German, with the bayonette, there's nothing scarier than realizing that your opponent is stronger than you and is about to kill you and there's not a darn thing you can do about it.

Also, fwiw, I would NOT rely on BJJ to finish a fight. Most good fighters nowadays knows BJJ. Besides, at no time do you want to find yourself on the ground, especially on your back.

Btw, my supplement to Aikido is a CWP and 9 rds of .45cal hollowpoint. There's NO WAY I'm gonna go toe to toe with a kid half my age or a hardened institutionalized felon.

Sorry, but until Aikido becomes a complete MA, able to defeat all others, a supplement is needed. It's all well and good to speak about spiritual stuff, like Zen and defeating yourself, etc, but the hard reality is if you don't take out your opponent, he's gonna take you, right now. Before you can say,"Please, don't."

My sentiments exactly....... until you have had to face such a scenario...... you will never know.
Those of us that have KNOW and the rest are just guessing or think they know......
I look at aikido as being something I have added to my other experience and take that which is useful and discard the rest.
To be effective in self defence requires absolute will and nerve.
If you give up at the slightest pain you are in big trouble and may lose your life because of it...... be prepared, if not forget it as you will deserve everything you get!! And it will only be your fault if you are humiliated, badly injured or ...... dead!

Tony

mwible
12-15-2008, 12:29 PM
I would then (from the hypothetical encouner you described. i.e. a failed ikkyo) transition into whatever came easiest in that particular situation. But i find ikkyo to transition into Sankyo quite nicely if the transition is needed. So, i say that i would then transition into a sankyo; or possibly a kokyu nage, or move, lead, and apply kote-gaeishi. The options are endless. That is Aikido.

-in aiki,
morgan

GeneC
12-15-2008, 01:13 PM
The reality is, a bad guy chooses to engage you in a fight because he is a fighter (otherwise he'd ambush you or snipe you),that's what he does and there's a real good chance he's put folks in the hospital and a good chance he's beat somebody to death. He fights dirty and usually has a weapon and friends and he thinks he can take you. Also, it don't have to be about robbery either, so don't use giving up your wallet and they go away as a strategy. There's just as good a chance they're trying to get into a gang or they're already in a gang, but want to get promoted or they have to do this to prove themselves, whatever, but the point is, they have to take you out (or else they get taken out), no matter what. They're not gonna be effected by your ikkyo or shihonage or any Aikido move and there's a real good chance you'll not get a chance to execute a technique.
My point is, they're plan is to effect a 'street dissection/beat down/take out' as soon and as quickly and viciously as possible. One should be thinking the same thing. Am I saying to totally abandon Aikido? Absolutely not, but have a plan B( and C and D, etc).

Tony Wagstaffe
12-15-2008, 01:21 PM
I would then (from the hypothetical encouner you described. i.e. a failed ikkyo) transition into whatever came easiest in that particular situation. But i find ikkyo to transition into Sankyo quite nicely if the transition is needed. So, i say that i would then transition into a sankyo; or possibly a kokyu nage, or move, lead, and apply kote-gaeishi. The options are endless. That is Aikido.

-in aiki,
morgan

Not hypothetical Morgan ...... actually experienced..... when its multiple attack, kicks and punches coming in at all angles all at the same time, the only thing you can do is escape...... not fight fisticuffs as you will fail unless you can box at a very highly skilled level..... Any aikido technique as they are taught in most dojo would fail miserably.... the only thing that stopped it was the fact that I was carrying a well hidden tanbo by my taxi cab seat and managed to use it to great effect..... without that I would have been badly beaten and would have ended up in A&E no doubt of that!!

Tony

mwible
12-15-2008, 11:56 PM
Not hypothetical Morgan ...... actually experienced..... when its multiple attack, kicks and punches coming in at all angles all at the same time, the only thing you can do is escape...... not fight fisticuffs as you will fail unless you can box at a very highly skilled level..... Any aikido technique as they are taught in most dojo would fail miserably.... the only thing that stopped it was the fact that I was carrying a well hidden tanbo by my taxi cab seat and managed to use it to great effect..... without that I would have been badly beaten and would have ended up in A&E no doubt of that!!

Tony

I was responding to the main question of the post.

But i understand what you are saying. And i dissagree that most Aikido techniques would fail against a single attacker; but of course a single man would fail when surprised by many. Even a "BJJ" "MMA" guy would get his ass kicked.

mwible
12-16-2008, 12:03 AM
The reality is, a bad guy chooses to engage you in a fight because he is a fighter (otherwise he'd ambush you or snipe you),that's what he does and there's a real good chance he's put folks in the hospital and a good chance he's beat somebody to death. He fights dirty and usually has a weapon and friends and he thinks he can take you. Also, it don't have to be about robbery either, so don't use giving up your wallet and they go away as a strategy. There's just as good a chance they're trying to get into a gang or they're already in a gang, but want to get promoted or they have to do this to prove themselves, whatever, but the point is, they have to take you out (or else they get taken out), no matter what. They're not gonna be effected by your ikkyo or shihonage or any Aikido move and there's a real good chance you'll not get a chance to execute a technique.
My point is, they're plan is to effect a 'street dissection/beat down/take out' as soon and as quickly and viciously as possible. One should be thinking the same thing. Am I saying to totally abandon Aikido? Absolutely not, but have a plan B( and C and D, etc).

So people with real intent dont feel pail? How would just such a "thug" not be able to be led just like any other? I dont quite understand how he wouldnt be effected by an ikkyo or shiho-nage. The techniques work. That is why we study to become proficient at them. Aikido IS to be able to transition, to take your atackers energy, to lead, to inflict a level of pain attuned to there level of aggression. Aikido is not moves that simply look pretty. It is meant to HURT when you need it to.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-16-2008, 04:19 PM
I was responding to the main question of the post.

But i understand what you are saying. And i dissagree that most Aikido techniques would fail against a single attacker; but of course a single man would fail when surprised by many. Even a "BJJ" "MMA" guy would get his ass kicked.

Morgan I'm not saying aikido techniques don't work ...... Its all to do with how they are applied and when....... Against a single assailant they have a good chance of working...... the other thing you forget is that when people who are "high" on some illegal substance their pain tolerance increases and they [U]will[U] resist, you can bet your life on that!!...... Sadly many years ago I actually broke someones wrist when a punter got nasty with me and I just knew that no matter what I tried to do to placate him he was going to take my head off and grabbed my jacket to lump me one.....
I took his left wrist and arm into a wakigatamae/hijijime lock which he managed to worm out of so I just changed to a hard kotegaeshi which I know broke it as I definitely felt something "go" yet it took sometime of wrestling around the outside of the cab before I managed to take him down with a gyaku gamae ate/sokumen iriminage which gave me enough time to get in my cab and drive off quickly.......
What I do feel is that aikidoka who only practice with a compliant partner all the time...... really miss the point so they will never know what it could possibly be like in a real self defence experience...... As long as those that practice without resistance realise this I have no problems...... Its the delusional practitioners that have the problem as I see it.......
Tony

mwible
12-16-2008, 11:01 PM
Morgan I'm not saying aikido techniques don't work ...... Its all to do with how they are applied and when....... Against a single assailant they have a good chance of working...... the other thing you forget is that when people who are "high" on some illegal substance their pain tolerance increases and they [U]will[U] resist, you can bet your life on that!!...... Sadly many years ago I actually broke someones wrist when a punter got nasty with me and I just knew that no matter what I tried to do to placate him he was going to take my head off and grabbed my jacket to lump me one.....
I took his left wrist and arm into a wakigatamae/hijijime lock which he managed to worm out of so I just changed to a hard kotegaeshi which I know broke it as I definitely felt something "go" yet it took sometime of wrestling around the outside of the cab before I managed to take him down with a gyaku gamae ate/sokumen iriminage which gave me enough time to get in my cab and drive off quickly.......
What I do feel is that aikidoka who only practice with a compliant partner all the time...... really miss the point so they will never know what it could possibly be like in a real self defence experience...... As long as those that practice without resistance realise this I have no problems...... Its the delusional practitioners that have the problem as I see it.......
Tony

I understand what you are saying completely. And in Suenaka-Ha Testsugaku-Ho Aikido we train very much for the purpose of self defense; that is our main goal in studying. Of course the spiritual side comes into play, but i definitly get my Uke's to resist and use strength/ force/ speed regularly.

But i know what you mean about the druggies; thats why koky-nage/ shihonage/ and ikkyo are so great, because they dont even have to feel pain because you are LEADING them, where they like it or not, or wether they are coherant or not;) .

And I am becoming particularly fond of ikkyo lately :)

GeneC
12-17-2008, 01:06 PM
So people with real intent dont feel pail? How would just such a "thug" not be able to be led just like any other? I dont quite understand how he wouldnt be effected by an ikkyo or shiho-nage. The techniques work. That is why we study to become proficient at them. Aikido IS to be able to transition, to take your atackers energy, to lead, to inflict a level of pain attuned to there level of aggression. Aikido is not moves that simply look pretty. It is meant to HURT when you need it to.

As said before, a hardened felon is likely to be on some kind of drug and feel no pain and is not likely to punch thru you or over-extend, which'd be required 'to be led' (anyway, you should be prepared that they don't), right? A good fighter knows to keep a solid center as well. Besides, the more experienced hardened institutionalized felons on steriods and PCP (the worst case scenario ones we train for) will not stand there and go toe to toe with you. Their plan is more likely the shock and awe with pipes and chains or a gun and a partner. I don't know about you, but if he has a knife, I'm not going to be reaching for it. I intend on keeping my digits, etc.
Also, say you do an Ikkyo or Shihonage, then what? You think that's gonna end the fight? I'm pretty sure it won't. You have to be prepared to 'take him out' or kill them to stop them.

mwible
12-17-2008, 11:16 PM
As said before, a hardened felon is likely to be on some kind of drug and feel no pain and is not likely to punch thru you or over-extend, which'd be required 'to be led' (anyway, you should be prepared that they don't), right? A good fighter knows to keep a solid center as well. Besides, the more experienced hardened institutionalized felons on steriods and PCP (the worst case scenario ones we train for) will not stand there and go toe to toe with you. Their plan is more likely the shock and awe with pipes and chains or a gun and a partner. I don't know about you, but if he has a knife, I'm not going to be reaching for it. I intend on keeping my digits, etc.
Also, say you do an Ikkyo or Shihonage, then what? You think that's gonna end the fight? I'm pretty sure it won't. You have to be prepared to 'take him out' or kill them to stop them.

It is definitly not impossible to lead your opponent even if they do not over-extend. But if he IS on some kind of drug, he's going to be "out of it" atleast a little bit, so dont you think that would make him more likely to be sloppy and over-extend? And the steroids thing, sure that would make him stronger( depending on the amount of time of usage) but it wouldnt make him invinsible or not feel pain. And yes, if he has a shotgun, im screwed(unless he gets within arms reach); if he has a buddy and they both have knives, im screwed; but if he is a trained martial artist, and has been studying for atleast several years to be worth some apprehension, then why would he be jumping me in the back of an ally(but maybe thats a question for another time?)?

And i dont know about your style of Aikido, but in my style, a good shihonage with proper Kuzushi is probably going to atleast knock out the guy, or at worst cave in the back of his skull and result in a dislocated sholder; and a properly executed Ikkyo will slam his face into the pavement resulting in a prime opportunity for you to either submit him and call the cops, or just break an arm/ kick him in the face and knock him out/ etc. etc. Do you see what im saying? Sure there are a thousand what-if's, but i believe Aikido to work in most normal self defense situations.

rei,
-morgan

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2008, 11:23 AM
As said before, a hardened felon is likely to be on some kind of drug and feel no pain and is not likely to punch thru you or over-extend, which'd be required 'to be led' (anyway, you should be prepared that they don't), right? A good fighter knows to keep a solid center as well. Besides, the more experienced hardened institutionalized felons on steriods and PCP (the worst case scenario ones we train for) will not stand there and go toe to toe with you. Their plan is more likely the shock and awe with pipes and chains or a gun and a partner. I don't know about you, but if he has a knife, I'm not going to be reaching for it. I intend on keeping my digits, etc.
Also, say you do an Ikkyo or Shihonage, then what? You think that's gonna end the fight? I'm pretty sure it won't. You have to be prepared to 'take him out' or kill them to stop them.

Ask a Shodokan player and they will agree with you on that one ..... well I'm sure most would !
As for weapons .... well that's a tall order and if there is an opening to get out of it........ run!! .....If you can or put as much between them and you so that it makes it difficult as possible to get close to you unless you can even up the odds?.....
As for doing ikkyo or shihonage .......well try it on someone who has fighting experience, a knife and you will find it almost impossible...... unless he uses a "sword" movement which most of aikido is based on...... and that is pretty unlikely!!

I think Clarence brings up some powerful argument here and this is evident in his experence in life...... I have been practising aikido since 1974 hard and rergularly three times a week, weekends, plus Winter, Summer gasshuku for ten years solid in my early career in aikido and that at great expense!! It probably results in thousands of hours practice and I see it as addition to my self defence knowledge, not the all and be all, which I think some aikidoka have a problem with..... With all the aikido world's sprirtual and harmonious talk it seems to set the precedence on how it is taught?,,,,,, and to be honest my experience of traditional aikdoka is that they all seem to have something to prove? (well most of the ones I have met do)..... in a strange and almost denial kind of way that other attacks actually exist? Other than traditional attacks!!

How they would deal with an attack with shihonage or ikkyo tells me something .........that they haven't been in many real fights....... if at all!!
But that's just my opinion and I am entitled to that.....I'm going by what little I do know and I do know that the majority of aikido waza taught as they are taught in most dojo, without resistance, will not stand up to real situations ....... sorry!!
Tony

Tony Wagstaffe
12-19-2008, 09:19 PM
[ Sure there are a thousand what-if's, but i believe Aikido to work in most normal self defense situations.

[/QUOTE]

In all honesty Morgan what is a "normal" self defence situation?
I have never been in a "normal" self defence situation, in fact they have always been without warning and are very tricky and there are no absolutes as far as my experience has found.......
People on drink or drugs or a mixture of both can turn very nasty in a flash and can be extremely nasty and vicious without any concern for your well being...... you either take 'em out as fast as possible or suffer the consequences..... hopefully without doing anything extreme!! But that much depends on how much they want to cause you harm!! That has been my lot where things of this nature crop up and they occur right across the spectrum regardless of social standing! And being a cabbie you have no "back up" you are on your own!!
There are no absolutes.......
Tony

Kevin Leavitt
12-19-2008, 09:22 PM
...and they may have no concern for their own well being too! Tony I always enjoy your pragmatic view!

mwible
12-20-2008, 12:25 AM
[ Sure there are a thousand what-if's, but i believe Aikido to work in most normal self defense situations.



In all honesty Morgan what is a "normal" self defence situation?
I have never been in a "normal" self defence situation, in fact they have always been without warning and are very tricky and there are no absolutes as far as my experience has found.......
People on drink or drugs or a mixture of both can turn very nasty in a flash and can be extremely nasty and vicious without any concern for your well being...... you either take 'em out as fast as possible or suffer the consequences..... hopefully without doing anything extreme!! But that much depends on how much they want to cause you harm!! That has been my lot where things of this nature crop up and they occur right across the spectrum regardless of social standing! And being a cabbie you have no "back up" you are on your own!!
There are no absolutes.......
Tony[/QUOTE]

Where i live, a normal self-defense situation is pretty much anything goes except weapons. Most people dont carry one around; except me, i always have my trusty Gerber knife on me (and a rather large combat knife in my car):p

And i dont particularly find shiho-nage very practical for me either. But I completely dissagree with your take on the effective applications of Ikkyo; i think it is one of the easiest to use(next to sankyo for me). But then maybe our styles differ some on the technique in a way makes you discard its usefullness?
Not sure.

And im also not quite sure what we are arguing about anymore.

I find that theoretically (having never been assaulted by a drunk/ steroid user/ or anyone on drugs, and especially not PCP) Ikkyo works quite well. And i have ALSO tested it in class many times; most recently on a 5' 3" 350 lb man who recently joined our Dojo, and it worked quite nicely on him as well (just make sure and get Shikaku before he can grab you;) ; and also on various other people i have come across, including a few so called MMA'ers.

All im saying is that i believe in what i am studying, and in the linneage and training of my Sensei, and in the head of the organization i belong to, Sensei Roy Y. Suenaka. And i believe in what they teach.

rei,
morgan

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2008, 06:39 AM
In all honesty Morgan what is a "normal" self defence situation?
I have never been in a "normal" self defence situation, in fact they have always been without warning and are very tricky and there are no absolutes as far as my experience has found.......
People on drink or drugs or a mixture of both can turn very nasty in a flash and can be extremely nasty and vicious without any concern for your well being...... you either take 'em out as fast as possible or suffer the consequences..... hopefully without doing anything extreme!! But that much depends on how much they want to cause you harm!! That has been my lot where things of this nature crop up and they occur right across the spectrum regardless of social standing! And being a cabbie you have no "back up" you are on your own!!
There are no absolutes.......
Tony

Where i live, a normal self-defense situation is pretty much anything goes except weapons. Most people dont carry one around; except me, i always have my trusty Gerber knife on me (and a rather large combat knife in my car):p

And i dont particularly find shiho-nage very practical for me either. But I completely dissagree with your take on the effective applications of Ikkyo; i think it is one of the easiest to use(next to sankyo for me). But then maybe our styles differ some on the technique in a way makes you discard its usefullness?
Not sure.

And im also not quite sure what we are arguing about anymore.

I find that theoretically (having never been assaulted by a drunk/ steroid user/ or anyone on drugs, and especially not PCP) Ikkyo works quite well. And i have ALSO tested it in class many times; most recently on a 5' 3" 350 lb man who recently joined our Dojo, and it worked quite nicely on him as well (just make sure and get Shikaku before he can grab you;) ; and also on various other people i have come across, including a few so called MMA'ers.

All im saying is that i believe in what i am studying, and in the linneage and training of my Sensei, and in the head of the organization i belong to, Sensei Roy Y. Suenaka. And i believe in what they teach.

rei,
morgan[/QUOTE]

If thats fine for you Morgan then who am I to say what is right and what is wrong for you? All I know is what I know and I don't carry a blade in my cab or on my person as that would be tantamount to carrying a weapon with intent as far as the law in the UK is concerned!!
But I do carry a tanbo which I made from a busted jo of hard oak, which I can tell you has come in very handy on a couple of occassions!!
It is a choice of last resort and does even up the odds if a punter happens to be carrying a blade on their person, which I have experienced!! I can tell you now it was a very hairy, scary experience and one I would rather not encounter again, thank you very much!! Did I shit myself? Yes but I would'nt have stood a chance without my trusty home made tanbo....... I can tell you now that when him and his mates ran off shouting "f...k him!!" A rush of sudden relief and shakes from the adrenaline was quite welcome!!
As for the fare no bloody chance!!

And as for shiho nage ...... all for dreamers but nice to practice...... ikkyo maybe if your attacker has a funny hand chopping afflliction!!???

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2008, 06:51 AM
...and they may have no concern for their own well being too! Tony I always enjoy your pragmatic view!

Actually Kevin they dont!! ...... until a swift bang around the nut shakes 'em to the core!! No they dont like getting hurt!! but as you say when you have to deal with wolf pack mentality you have no choice..... and do they care for their own safety? Apparently not when they have tried to jump out of the cab when moving at speed!!
So when working at night I always make sure the anti runner/child safety locks are on and no one can get out!!...... except me.....;) :cool:

gregg block
12-20-2008, 07:32 AM
Anthony,
I agree with your posts here 100%. Good luck doing shiho. on someone who knows how to fight. When you can't reason with or run ;Atemi, Atemi,Atemi,Atemi,Atemi and did I mention Atemi!

Tony Wagstaffe
12-20-2008, 07:52 AM
Toni,
I agree with your posts here 100%. Good luck doing shiho. on someone who knows how to fight. When you can't reason with or run ;Atemi, Atemi,Atemi,Atemi,Atemi and did I mention Atemi!

Chuckle ;) :D :cool:

Take care Gregg,
Nice of you to say so but everyone to their own....... I think its best to go with ones own experience...... after all its all one has !! ha ha!
Its surprising what you can tweek out of people:rolleyes: :straightf

mwible
12-20-2008, 11:02 AM
If thats fine for you Morgan then who am I to say what is right and what is wrong for you? All I know is what I know and I don't carry a blade in my cab or on my person as that would be tantamount to carrying a weapon with intent as far as the law in the UK is concerned!!
But I do carry a tanbo which I made from a busted jo of hard oak, which I can tell you has come in very handy on a couple of occassions!!
It is a choice of last resort and does even up the odds if a punter happens to be carrying a blade on their person, which I have experienced!! I can tell you now it was a very hairy, scary experience and one I would rather not encounter again, thank you very much!! Did I shit myself? Yes but I would'nt have stood a chance without my trusty home made tanbo....... I can tell you now that when him and his mates ran off shouting "f...k him!!" A rush of sudden relief and shakes from the adrenaline was quite welcome!!
As for the fare no bloody chance!!

And as for shiho nage ...... all for dreamers but nice to practice...... ikkyo maybe if your attacker has a funny hand chopping afflliction!!???\

Haha, a funny hand chopping affliction:p

But yeah, its a bit different here in the U.S., with the second Amendment to our constitution, we hold the right to carry/ own arms. So i exercise my right every day with my Gerber;)

And that is very lucky that you had a weapon of your own in just such a situation.

And i agree, i would never use Shiho-nage unless something crazy happened and my attacker just kinda fell into it (but when does that happen?), haha.

But im a bit more agressive with my self defense and the application of Aikido, in a purely self defense situation(never to attack), if i need to grab an arm/ wrist to effect a lock (such as Ikkyo) then i am alllll for it.

Good talking with you.

in aiki,
morgan

gregg block
12-21-2008, 10:12 AM
Chuckle ;) :D :cool:

Take care Gregg,
Nice of you to say so but everyone to their own....... I think its best to go with ones own experience...... after all its all one has !! ha ha!
Its surprising what you can tweek out of people:rolleyes: :straightf

I am going with my own experience, thats why I agree with you. :confused: Your opinon(s) are not unique, just seem acurate to me based on my own experiences:sorry: