Christian Tissier: Ukemi

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[deathlinenetworks]

Question: How does Christian Tissier train his students? Their ukemi is just perfect (smooth, swift, fast, wonderful, amazing, etc) I mean, they make it looks so easy. Makes me think their tatami is made out of spring... How can we learn to fall like them? Is there any "ukemi secrets"?

[rob_liberti]

Of course.

Step 1, get thrown a lot by Christian Tessier
Step 2: repeat step 1 as often as possible
Step 3: get thrown a lot by people who have worked with Christian Tessier a lot
Step 4: repeat step 3 as often as possible

Rob

[deathlinenetworks]

when i get rich in the future, i'll fly to france just to get thrown by him and his students

[Mato-san]

Classic reply from Rob. I love the thread cause I find myself aspiring to take ukemi like these guys all the time.

[DanielR]

Improving my ukemi skills has been an obsession of mine for quite a while now, and Tissier Sensei's students are certainly up there.

I'm sure Rob's response was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I thought I'd just offer my perspective: the "getting thrown a lot" approach has done practically nothing to improve my ukemi, especially the so-called soft high falls. I was only able to achieve noticeable progress after I got a chance to train under instructors like Frank Ostoff Sensei and Jan Nevelius Sensei who have developed, as part of their wider approach to Aikido, a clear methodology for teaching ukemi. Playing with their senior students has been a great help. Still much room for improvement :)

Interestingly, it sometimes happens that when I get thrown by a really good nage, it almost feels like a good ukemi happens by itself. But for me this only started to take place when I got some important issues of alignment, relaxation and uke-nage interaction worked out to some basic extent. The flip side of being thrown like that though is that a good nage can sometimes compensate for uke's deficient ukemi skills. So as the instructors I mentioned above emphasize, it's an important part of the learning process for the nage to gradually "let go" of the uke and let them take care of themselves.

[bkedelen]

If you are interested in getting high level ukemi skills, just practice rolling and falling a lot. All you really have to do is take about six years off from trying to learn how to throw and spend it on learning to fall instead. This is of great benefit to the beginner because when you get back into trying to learn how to throw, you will then be able to attract the best people as training partners.

[jennifer paige smith]

If you are interested in getting high level ukemi skills, just practice rolling and falling a lot. All you really have to do is take about six years off from trying to learn how to throw and spend it on learning to fall instead. This is of great benefit to the beginner because when you get back into trying to learn how to throw, you will then be able to attract the best people as training partners.

Benjamin,
I would agree with this and I would add:
This is of great benefit to anyone at any level of practice for the above said reasons. And if the 'best people' were also training this way imagine how many wonderful people the art we would be generating.Now that's evolution!
Best,
Jen

[Mary Turner]

This is always easier said than done, but.. relax.

Also, I got some good advice recently about concentrating on "core" muscles to help achieve the rounded shape for a roll and to keep legs and toes from smacking too hard in a breakfall.

[bkedelen]

Someone PM'd me and reminded me of the critical point that ukemi encompasses far more than rolling and falling. This is an elementary concept which I should have begun looking into long before now. Rolls and falls are important, fun, and pretty easy to nail down compared to the rest of Aikido skills. Nevertheless, rolling and falling does not even encompass half of the body of skills to which the word "ukemi" refers. People who are interested in digging deeper into ukemi are going to have to develop seriously good attacks and work on the concept of "receiving" nage's technique without sacrificing the honesty of the attack. This type of real, sensitive paired training is, I think, significantly more challenging than learning the fairly simple solo gymnastics movements of rolling and falling.

[Daniel Blanco]

my advice would be to purchase the DVD on Ukemi by Sensei Donavan Waite ( USAF) would be a good start and intro. Knowledge of ukemi comes from developing a relationship with the mat, this is what i tell new students " the closer you get to the mat,the closer/friendlier the mat will be to you" you must relax and trust your Nage. Hope this helps.

[deathlinenetworks]

thanks for the advices everyone. I have the same obsession with Daniel Rozenbaum. I'll roll and fall as much as I can and look into the DVD. If one day I'm able to find a way and do it as beautiful as Tissier's students, WOOTZ.....! I'll spread it to everyone.... The beauty of Aikido.

[James Edwards]

No offence but why is Tissier's students' ukemi so special? In my honest opinion they are often quite showy and sometimes impractical.

There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.

[Flintstone]

There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.
Just think about concrete or asphalt...!!

[Mato-san]

your ability to fall should precede your ability to throw.
Some of his students take great ukemi that looks good and does damage, but others take nice ukemi that looks nice and is long term forgiving...both are are tobi ukemi

[jennifer paige smith]

tobi or not tobi, that is the question.

[NagaBaba]

No offence but why is Tissier's students' ukemi so special? In my honest opinion they are often quite showy and sometimes impractical.

There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.

I agree completely. What they do has nothing to do with aikido. It is a kind of healthy gymnastic - this guys and girls jump themselves without any reason. But what is worse, such artificial and exaggerated response to a technique has as result that nage learns false technique. When he goes to the other style dojo, where nobody jump for him like that he is completely lost.His techniques are not working even if his partners cooperate, but he has impression that they do full power resistance.And he takes it personaly and gets angry.....

In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.

[dalen7]

My Ukemi - well...not that good for sure.
In fact I hate taking ukemi for something as simple as Ikkyo, etc.
(It bothers my knee - specifically one side, so now I have to use one side all the time to protect the other knee.)

Would like to know how to do better Ukemi as well - guess I will see what happens. ;)

Peace

dAlen

[James Edwards]

In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.

That has happened to me once. We don't usually do flips with anything and one of the few things we do it for is when someone does kotegaeshi to the side and much faster than usual. So one day I was experimenting a bit as my friend practiced kotegaeshi on me and I flipped to receive the technique. Instead of letting me land, my friend changed the technique mid-throw and pulled me in the other direction. I was lucky I still landed on my shoulders and back. Then I got a scoulding for doing that with normal kotegaishi..

[mari]

I cannot disagree more with most of the replies, saying that Christian Tissier's Aikido is healthy gymnastics and that uke's falls are artificial and exaggerated response. If done correctly, like everything in Aikido, that kind of kotegaeshi will produce that kind of ukemi. If done incorrectly and uke doesn't play along, it will result in uke just standing there with their arm slightly bent. And that is true for all Aikido. Shihan Tissier works with a fast moving uke, you can't do that type of Aikido static. You need to get uke moving, if they don't move, you need different approach to kotegaeshi, a more standard approach if you want to call it. And not just kote gaeshi, any technique. If you have ever been on the receiving end of that type of Aikdio, and nage was doing the right thing, there is no way you'd call Christian Tissier's Aikdio gymnastics.
But you can't have a standard kotegaeshi done to you and try to breakfall it. That doesn't make sense.

[jennifer paige smith]

I agree completely. What they do has nothing to do with aikido. It is a kind of healthy gymnastic - this guys and girls jump themselves without any reason. But what is worse, such artificial and exaggerated response to a technique has as result that nage learns false technique. When he goes to the other style dojo, where nobody jump for him like that he is completely lost.His techniques are not working even if his partners cooperate, but he has impression that they do full power resistance.And he takes it personaly and gets angry.....

In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.

Please clarify.
Is this general opinion, or have you trained with Tissier and are speaking from direct experience?
Thanks

[NagaBaba]

I cannot disagree more with most of the replies, saying that Christian Tissier's Aikido is healthy gymnastics and that uke's falls are artificial and exaggerated response. You are reading too much in my post. I never said that 'Christian Tissier's Aikdio is gymnastics'. I said that ukemi of his uke is a healthy gymnastics.

If done correctly, like everything in Aikido, that kind of kotegaeshi will produce that kind of ukemi..
May be from your point of view ;)
But when you will get more ikkyo under your belt you will observe, that CT is using very wide circles. This kind of movement is not locking joints at all. Normally you can't lead anybody with such movement if he doesn't know what to do, if he doesn't have idea that he must follow nage.

For sure, you can't lift anybody on air with such movement.

So, the real connection nage-uke doesn’t exist and the successful throw is only possible when uke jumps by himself.
Speed of execution of technique has nothing to do with the necessity of flying in the air, attacker also can be very fast :D and match his movement with nage to redirect such large motion with no effort. That what we call 'harmony' ;)

So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.

[NagaBaba]

Please clarify.
Is this general opinion, or have you trained with Tissier and are speaking from direct experience?
Thanks
Direct experience.

[mari]

But when you will get more ikkyo under your belt you will observe, that CT is using very wide circles. This kind of movement is not locking joints at all. Normally you can't lead anybody with such movement if he doesn't know what to do, if he doesn't have idea that he must follow nage.

For sure, you can't lift anybody on air with such movement.

So, the real connection nage-uke doesn’t exist and the successful throw is only possible when uke jumps by himself.
Speed of execution of technique has nothing to do with the necessity of flying in the air, attacker also can be very fast :D and match his movement with nage to redirect such large motion with no effort. That what we call 'harmony' ;)

So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.

I will pretend that I didn't see the experience comment :confused:

You are right that you can't lock joints at that speed but that doesn't mean you can't move your uke by working on their balance, while still have full control over where they fall and how they do it.

Can you receive some of these techniques with a forward or a backward roll? Maybe. Depends on how well the technique is done. I saw below that you said you had direct experience with Christian Tissier, I haven't had the pleasure of being on the receiving end of his technique but I have practiced with people who try to learn from him. And to me it is just a different way to execute a technique. Not better, not worse. It is just different. I have to say that I like it a lot :D
In a couple of weeks, I will be able to practice for a whole month with people who learn directly from Tissier Shihan, I will make sure to try to take every technique rolling forward or backward and will let you know of the result :uch:

[Mato-san]

CT has a yokomenuchi/yoko type angle to his kotegaishi and seems to break ukes balance well before sending them over with it into tobi ukemi....it is similar to that seen in aikijujutsu and heaps of styles of Aikido, he probably couldn`t execute it from a toe to toe no momentum situation, but I am sure he has a lot of other answers from there though (not my type of kotegaishi but looks nice and who am I to criticize CT`s technique) if he were to release earlier probably the showy flip would not be so necessary, some of his kaiten nage is light and I think doesn`t require big ukemi like that, but some of his soto kaiten would be down right painful if you did not tobi into it.
So yeah like Jennifer said "to tobi or not to tobi IS the question!"

I like his technique a whole bunch and would love to get on the receiving end of some of his tornado type waza.

[jennifer paige smith]

Direct experience.

In that case, I would like it if you were to elaborate on your experience. For example, the length of your experience, or perhaps extent,would be a better word. Or the context. Was it a workshop, did you take Ukemi from Tissier , and what level of practice were you at when you had that experience?
Thanks. I'd appreciate it.

[ramenboy]

i have to agree w mariya and others here. no offence, szczepan ( we normally don't agree anyway! :P), its all good.

i think also, with someone of tissier sensei's caliber, just like like yokota, osawa and even berthaiume sensei, they'll throw you in regard of your ability to take ukemi.

[mari]

You are reading too much in my post. I never said that 'Christian Tissier's Aikdio is gymnastics'. I said that ukemi of his uke is a healthy gymnastics.


Uke's ukemi is only as good as nage's technique.

I am sorry I read too much into your words, I sort of take the post personally, like probably most european aikido practitioners would. We all at some point have idolized Christian Tissier :D

[Flintstone]

I am sorry I read too much into your words, I sort of take the post personally, like probably most european aikido practitioners would. We all at some point have idolized Christian Tissier :D

That's much of an overstatement, I believe. Me? No problem, some things I like, some not, like everybody. Just think that ukemi is too flashy and not much safe outside the dojo.

Best.

[Michael Douglas]

... I said that ukemi of his uke is a healthy gymnastics.
...
So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.
I mostly agree. Some of those techniques are even more safely received by gently sitting down, or ... reluctantly descending.

...In a couple of weeks, I will be able to practice for a whole month with people who learn directly from Tissier Shihan, I will make sure to try to take every technique rolling forward or backward and will let you know of the result :uch:
You might not have the chance, you might find peer-pressure encouraging you to somersault through the air at every opportunity.

I just watched these three vids, chosen randomly from the u-tube ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENSat0bmUpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtqoQu083kU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvwl-1nb-8U
The third one seems fairly sensible, the first two are very much demos. Even in the Dublin seminar we only see sensible efficient falling from (apparently, to my eyes) non-Tissier students.
By sensible I knida mean energy-efficient and striving for an end-point that isn't flat on the floor.

[NagaBaba]

In that case, I would like it if you were to elaborate on your experience. For example, the length of your experience, or perhaps extent,would be a better word. Or the context. Was it a workshop, did you take Ukemi from Tissier , and what level of practice were you at when you had that experience?
Thanks. I'd appreciate it.

Hello Jennifer,
How's going?
You are requesting a lot of info about me Without giving anything about yourself. Are you working for any secret service? marketing? church? :D
Let's simply say I've already practiced with CT before you was born...:cool:

[NagaBaba]

In a couple of weeks, I will be able to practice for a whole month with people who learn directly from Tissier Shihan, I will make sure to try to take every technique rolling forward or backward and will let you know of the result :uch:
They will not like it. As a next step, they will start to explain you how you have to behave 'correctly', so their techniques will be able to produce such flashy flips.Then you will have two choices:
1. be trained by them as a Pavlov's dog to react 'correctly' on particular signals
2. go home and practice aikido ;)

Kind regards

[NagaBaba]

i have to agree w mariya and others here. no offence, szczepan ( we normally don't agree anyway! :P), its all good.

i think also, with someone of tissier sensei's caliber, just like like yokota, osawa and even berthaiume sensei, they'll throw you in regard of your ability to take ukemi.
I agree, but very many of overzealous uke imagine that by such flashy flips they make looks better their instructor. From this moment, the practice has nothing to do with aikido and become healthy gymnastic.

[JO]

Hey Szczepan,

Why all the secrecy. She didn't ask you for state secrets, just to explain how much hands on knowledge of Tissier's aikido you have. Personnally I have no opinion as of yet. But I am going to Tissier's seminar in Montreal in two weeks. You going to be there?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

"Nothing works in Aikido, nothing"

C. Tissier. Aikido Today Magazine #43.
:)

[ChrisMoses]

"Nothing works in Aikido, nothing"

C. Tissier. Aikido Today Magazine #43.
:)

Looks like Tissier agrees with NagaBaba... :D

[jennifer paige smith]

Hello Jennifer,
How's going?
You are requesting a lot of info about me Without giving anything about yourself. Are you working for any secret service? marketing? church? :D
Let's simply say I've already practiced with CT before you was born...:cool:



Yes, I am an operative from the CIA. And now that I know you took Ukemi from Tissier Sensei over 40 years ago.........I'm even more curious. Honestly, I got the solid impression that you'd been involved in aikido for a lot fewer years than I, but that is only from online observations, your photo, and your bio.

My info is fairly complete in my bio. Yours is pretty, well,....incomplete........and I'm not keeping anything under my hat. You made a pretty big statement and I wonder where you're coming from. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Otherwise should one just toss in the hat when some unknown person says, "They suck." Don't think so.
People who I personally train with and have a good respect for admire Tissier Sensei very much. I'm attempting to balance the scales by weighing the gravity of your experience against someone like Bruce Bookman. That's why I ask. Again, it seems straight forward enough. Unless you just don't want to answer. then just say, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you." and I'll understand.

[NagaBaba]

Hey Szczepan,

Why all the secrecy. She didn't ask you for state secrets, just to explain how much hands on knowledge of Tissier's aikido you have. Personnally I have no opinion as of yet. But I am going to Tissier's seminar in Montreal in two weeks. You going to be there?
Hello JO,
I was last year, but now I'm pretty busy. So not sure I can make it.May be we can meet at Chiba sensei seminar? If yes, it will be terrific chance to check how you learned high flying ukemi a la uke of CT :p

[NagaBaba]

I'm attempting to balance the scales by weighing the gravity of your experience.
My weight is about 70 kg. How about Bruce?

[jennifer paige smith]

My weight is about 70 kg. How about Bruce?

I dunno. Maybe you can ask him yourself at the Chiba Seminar. He was Chiba Sensei's student for 16 years.Perhaps he'll be there.

[Nicholas Eschenbruch]

I have great respect for Tissier Sensei. And in every organisation, there are people who try to please the teacher by over-fulfilling what they assume are his expectations. Some fall for no reason, others injure people for no reason…

Some related points:
- I have seen Tissier Sensei grab Philippe Orban by the hair and hammer him into the mat with irimi nage right where they were standing. Orban Sensei certainly had the ukemi to deal with that, too.
- It is true some of his students get quite confused when you don’t follow the choreography. They might indeed then say things like “When you put this foot forward instead of the other one we cannot practice this technique.” and a few will give you a you-are-ignorant look while they say it.
- However, they certainly train against resisting ukes. One of his main points is that you should practice doing technique against centred resistance, rather than just change the technique.
- I trained at a Tissier affiliated dojo for two years, it was the most acceptable one around, but still I often hated their fluffy style back then. Today, however, I am immensely grateful for the general movement and posture awareness I learned there, especially through the ukemi.
- Finally: I know at least one person who permanently damaged their lower back by doing those extremely elegant backward “rolls” they do, a bit too often (legs outstretched, looks a bit like tipping a bowl that then comes back into balance). So that is my point for the OP.

I have been to a couple of his seminars, and he made a point of going around and throwing everybody. Go there and find out!
N.

[deathlinenetworks]

not expecting all these posts....

doesn't matter if the ukemi is too flashy, impractical, so on and so forth. The thought of doing something like that makes me happy. besides, is fun to learn something extra. Other than that, they get up so quickly after falling. saves time :)

[Don_Ellingsworth]

I was only able to achieve noticeable progress after I got a chance to train under instructors like Frank Ostoff Sensei and Jan Nevelius Sensei who have developed, as part of their wider approach to Aikido, a clear methodology for teaching ukemi.

I've had two seminars with Frank Ostoff Sensei. He is a wonderful teacher and my ukemi improved quite a bit after his seminar. And the way I teach ukemi was changed completly.

I had the opportunity to train with Tissier Sensei in 2003 when he taught at the Boulder Aikikai Summer Camp in the Rockies. (http://tinyurl.com/5e98rf) He and his ukes are amazing. Undeniably, taking ukemi for Tissier Sensei will keep you in shape. Some people criticize the French style of ukemi, but no matter what, you can never say they are lazy with their ukemi. So in answer to the original post, I'd say that one of the 'secrets' is to not be lazy. Don't 'make' nage push/pull you around. Instead, be an active participant in the movement.

One of my favorite ukes to watch (imitate) is Aiki Web founder Jun Akiyama. Perhaps he has some advice.

[deathlinenetworks]

Don Ellingsworth. Saw the video of the training on youtube. Looks fun.......

[Nicholas Eschenbruch]

One of my favorite ukes to watch (imitate) is Aiki Web founder Jun Akiyama. Perhaps he has some advice.

In fact, I only had the occasion to watch for one week in France once, but now that you mention it - that was very impressive. Jun, are you willing to contribute thoughts about ukemi and how you do it, or have you already done so somewhere?

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi,

I'm doing aikido in a Tissier affiliated dojo for over 14 years now. Since some years we no longer belong to the FFAAA of France but are a member of the German Aikido Federation with Christian Tissier and Endo Seishiro as our Shihan. Both of them disciples of Yamaguchi Sensei.
This debate about the ukemi of his uke sounds quite a bit strange to me. I registered to this forum just to give my opinion.

But when you will get more ikkyo under your belt you will observe, that CT is using very wide circles. This kind of movement is not locking joints at all. Normally you can't lead anybody with such movement if he doesn't know what to do, if he doesn't have idea that he must follow nage.
That's right: We try not to use the pain of locked joints to control an lead uke.
We try instead to use our legs and cutting movements of our tegatana. So if it works, we can control ukes center and lead him by kuzushi.
We try to do this in a way which leaves no opportunities to uke to decide wether to follow or not.

Even in ikkyo to gokyo we try not to move uke by the pain in his joints but by the contact we build up by bending ukes joints.

We often work with uke resisting to our techniques because they are designed to work and to move uke even if he doesn't want to.

For sure, you can't lift anybody on air with such movement.
This ist a misunderstanding of this way of ukemi: uke ist not at all lifted to the air, but in the contrary his center is led straight down. So he or she has to move around the pivot point of the technique.
To roll forward isn't possible because uke has to turn on the spot. And to roll backward isn't possible because of the kuzushi and the control of uke's center.
… If everything works right …;-)

So, the real connection nage-uke doesn't existGetting this connection between the centers of nage and uke is the main intention of our practice. Both, Tissier and Endo emphasize this very much. This is the core of our aikido.

and the successful throw is only possible when uke jumps by himself. It will definitely be corrected if uke jumps by himself. Such jumping is considered as a mistake in our aikido. Tissier doesn't like this at all.
He also corrects what he calls "Hollywood ukemi": Doing ukemi for show, moving without necessity.

Beginners, being not flexible enough to receive the techniques may sometimes jump to protect themselves. That happens.
But the more they progress the more they get skilled just to wait wether the technique will move them or not and follow nages leading. Then you can start working ...

For this you have to get flexible hips and relaxed arms. permeable arms we say. I hope it's the right word: We don't do anything with our Arm but letting through the contact between the centers. It's the same as nage.

So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.You said you trained with Christian, didn't you?
I can't realy understand how you then get to this opinion? Normally Christian handles his uke depending to there abilities. I assume you do aikido quite a time and could do good ukemi if necessary. So I don't know, why he left that expression to you and didn't throw you. I am at a loss with this.

Last to say: Here in Europe we are not on the fluffy side of the hill but are considered to be on the more "martial" side of Aikido. Tissier often is not accepted for doing an Aikido which stresses too much the effectiveness of the art.

Please excuse my english. I'm not used to talk or write in english.

Greetings,
Carsten

[jennifer paige smith]

Super great post Carsten. Thanks for that.
Sincerely,
Jen Smith

[JO]

I went to Tissier's seminar in Montreal last weekend. Here are my impressions.

It was a good seminar and I enjoyed the training and the somewhat different take on techniques that Tissier has compared to what I am used to.

As far as ukemi goes, the seminar was mostly on basic techniques so we didn't do much big ukemi. Tissier showed some interesting points in terms of positioning. In contrast to some of the comments here, he usually asked the uke to stand strong (not really resistance though since he would ask you to not push or pull).

On the down side, I found that he had a tendency to slowly set up the technique and then go into high speed for the finish. This pulled my wrist on kotegaeshi and my neck in Irimi nage. Not enough to injure, but enough to notice. The only way to avoid this would be to anticipate the throw and "jump". I personnally would have been more impressed if he had kept the slow pace to the end and showed more unbalancing and control of uke thoughout the move rather than have you stand there stable waiting for the finish and then BAM.

When he did demonstrate techniques at higher speed from start to finish, he certainly showed great timing and positioning. The ukes he used were from various Montreal dojos (including friends of Szczepan's, and I suggest he talk to Bob Saad for a more expert opinion of the seminar). Since they weren't "his" ukes, much of the commentary in this thread doesn't really apply.

[NagaBaba]

Hi,

Even in ikkyo to gokyo we try not to move uke by the pain in his joints but by the contact we build up by bending ukes joints.

A simple bending uke joints will not create any connection to his center. You have to lock one joint after another and then connect this locked joints together by using kokyu. Then you have you this builded 'stifness' to unbalance uke.
But in your style you are not doing that.


This ist a misunderstanding of this way of ukemi: uke ist not at all lifted to the air, but in the contrary his center is led straight down. So he or she has to move around the pivot point of the technique.

In other words uke must jump by himself on air. That what I'm saying from the beginning.Uke is creating movement , not nage. And if uke doesn't jump, the joints are severely solicitated - as JO wrote in his impressions from seminar.It means that no leading and no connection really exist between nage and uke.

Getting this connection between the centers of nage and uke is the main intention of our practice.

You said you trained with Christian, didn't you?
I can't realy understand how you then get to this opinion? Normally Christian handles his uke depending to there abilities. I assume you do aikido quite a time and could do good ukemi if necessary. So I don't know, why he left that expression to you and didn't throw you. I am at a loss with this.

Look at these comments:

JO wrote: I found that he had a tendency to slowly set up the technique and then go into high speed for the finish. This pulled my wrist on kotegaeshi and my neck in Irimi nage. Not enough to injure, but enough to notice. The only way to avoid this would be to anticipate the throw and "jump".

I think you are even not conscious that this is uke that have to create this connection in your style by jumping on air. And if uke is from other style, and doesn't know his role, connection will not be created by nage.So uke 'jumping' is completely artificial.

[NagaBaba]

I personnally would have been more impressed if he had kept the slow pace to the end and showed more unbalancing and control of uke thoughout the move rather than have you stand there stable waiting for the finish and then BAM..
That is exactly my opinion too.I had the same feeling from dynamic attack - my center wasn't affected right from the beginning.

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi or

moin as we say here
A simple bending uke joints will not create any connection to his center. You have to lock one joint after another and then connect this locked joints together by using kokyu. Then you have you this builded 'stifness' to unbalance uke.Stifness just brakes bones. It dosn't connect.
We indeed learn to lock joints and to break bones. But that's not the way which is preferred.
That ist very interresting: Stifness to us is a word which is antipodal to aikido.

In other words uke must jump by himself on air.No. Do you misunderstand me on purpose? (Right words for: You know it better but try to get me off guard?)
Uke is led by nage. Nage does the throw. Uke has the alternative to resist and break bones or neck. Or let oneself go an be led by nage.
Neverever jump by yourself, just let yourself be directed by nage. If your jump doesn't fit with nages technique it may cause injury.

And if uke doesn't jump, the joints are severely solicitated - as JO wrote in his impressions from seminar.It means that no leading and no connection really exist between nage and uke.Does it? Ok, I won't convince you. So may it be. ;)

Look at these comments: ... JO wrote: I found that he had a tendency to slowly set up the technique and then go into high speed for the finish. This pulled my wrist on kotegaeshi and my neck in Irimi nage. Not enough to injure, but enough to notice. The only way to avoid this would be to anticipate the throw and "jump".
I am very sorry, but I wrote something about uke who have to jump instead of having the ability of beeing led by nage.
But I admit: This change of speed and timing deserves a lot of practice.
And it should only be done with an uke who knows about the difficulties.

I think you are even not conscious that this is uke that have to create this connection in your style by jumping on air. Big Grin: Here in Germany our style ist a minority so we have to proove often that it works with uke who don't know that they have to create a connection by themselves.

And if uke is from other style, and doesn't know his role, connection will not be created by nage.So uke 'jumping' is ompletely artificial.Problem is: Uke from other style often are not able to give good ukemi and jump by themselves instead of giving in and be lead by nage.

Well okay: You have got your opinion. I won't change it. Are you aware, that you are not only talking about Tissier shihan but also about Endo Shihan and other teachers of hombu dojo? What about them and their "styles"?

It would be interresting for me to see examples of your teachers anD your way of ukemi. Can you describe or perhaps show the difference?

Greetings,
Carsten

[gabe]

Hi Jonathan... glad you enjoyed the seminar, we had fun putting it on. Did we get a chance to train together?

I share your experience w/CT setting things up slowly and then *BAM* though I disagree slightly w/your conclusion... I've found that you do have other choices than just "anticipate the throw and "jump"" when he does that. For me, the more I'm able to keep a unified *core* the easier it is to receive his technique. In fact, he doesn't like it when ukes jump for him, we have a tendency to move easily at my dojo, and he generally admonishes us to "let me do it" (-: The more I've been able to maintain my own center during the "setup" part of the technique, the more the ukemi works. It's interesting.

In any case, we are hoping to have him back again next year, and hopefully we will see you again!

gabe.

[Chicko Xerri]

Techniques in Aikido act on the Mind Body Center. One is mistaken to think techniques are executed on the extremities of the body only, hands, limbs and joints etc. True Aikido technique acts on that which motivates and initiates movement. Nikyo, Sankyo and other technique form shapes in the physical wrists limbs and body. But also internally. The truly effective technique acts on the Mind Body Center. Control in locking and unlocking this Center without pain in the joints and body should be our guide for technique advancement and it can come from sophisticated Ukemi.( the ability to become sensitive to changes within movement.) Higher level Aikido begins with high level Ukemi.:rolleyes:

[JO]

Hello Gabe,

We did train together a couple of times, unless there's another Gabe at your dojo. I'm the shodan from Quebec City with the short beard and long light brown hair tied in a braid. I was also at the seminar with Frank Doran last summer.

I think I know what you mean about finding the core, but I tend to think that nage should work a little more at making that connection. Especially when you are instructed to stand solid. I mean, for all the talking he did on the "code" and different types of training, he didn't really say much about how uke should attack (with the possible exception of the yokomen training where he specifically had us tracking the nage and trying to knock him in the head as he moved (even Szczepan would have appreciated that part, as I know from the number of times I've knocked him in the head).

[aikilouis]

[...]with the short beard and long light brown hair tied in a braid.

Why am I not surprised ? :)

[gabe]

Hello Gabe,

We did train together a couple of times, unless there's another Gabe at your dojo. I'm the shodan from Quebec City with the short beard and long light brown hair tied in a braid. I was also at the seminar with Frank Doran last summer.

I think I know what you mean about finding the core, but I tend to think that nage should work a little more at making that connection. Especially when you are instructed to stand solid. I mean, for all the talking he did on the "code" and different types of training, he didn't really say much about how uke should attack (with the possible exception of the yokomen training where he specifically had us tracking the nage and trying to knock him in the head as he moved (even Szczepan would have appreciated that part, as I know from the number of times I've knocked him in the head).

Ah, yeah, I remember now. I had a good time training with you. Lots of fun. Agreed on not much input re: how uke should attack, would be nice to have more information on that.

[Carsten Möllering]

Hi
... how uke should attack, would be nice to have more information on that.

I'm not sure whether I understand your statement: Which different ways to attack do you know?
Do you have different ways to deliver shomen uchi for instance?

The only attack I know where there is a discussion about different ways to understand it is yokomen uchi: Whether it's a long cutting movement (kesa giri) or short, narrow and sharp movement which comes near shuto uchi.

Interesting: What questions do you have about "how uke should attack?

Greetings,
Carsten

[gabe]

Hi

I'm not sure whether I understand your statement: Which different ways to attack do you know?
Do you have different ways to deliver shomen uchi for instance?

The only attack I know where there is a discussion about different ways to understand it is yokomen uchi: Whether it's a long cutting movement (kesa giri) or short, narrow and sharp movement which comes near shuto uchi.

Interesting: What questions do you have about "how uke should attack?

Greetings,
Carsten

It's not so much questions on what a shomen looks like, or a yokomen, or a tsuki, but... more on what a "good attack" looks like if you will. I'm sure there are several forum posts on just such questions, so I'd rather not stray too far off topic here.

Different teachers will tell you different things re: "how you should attack" it can be confusing, but is part of the process, finding the "principles" behind attacking w/little formal instruction on attacks.

[deathlinenetworks]

jumping while taking ukemi??? up till now whenever my instructor throws me, i'll just follow the flow. never knew you have to jump in order to do it. I've turned it into a habit of mine. If there's no momentum or power from a technique, I will not flip around. Will just fall normally.

[JO]

Since this thread started out discussing the quality of Tissier's ukes, I don't feel a discussion on what is expected of a good uke is too far off topic.

A good example is the meaning of "falling normally" if the technique has no momentum or power. In my default way of training, if a technique has no power or momentum I just stand there. What does it mean to "fall normally" if there is nothing making you fall in the first place. And I'm not even yet getting into adding any resistance against the technique or counterattacking.

The truth is there is no one way to attack in aikido and that what is expected from you can change from one dojo to the next. On top of that, even in a given dojo, the intensity and freeness of an attack will vary depending on the level of the uke, the level of the nage, whether it is a completely prearranged form or some level of jyu waza.

So in a seminar, when an instructor is surrounded by people who have never or rarely trained with him, it can be nice to know what is expected at a given time. When I am told to stand solid, I stand solid. Even as he throws me I continue to stand solid. If there is no power or unbalancing in the technique, I don't fall. If he's Tissier, I fall but my joint's get pulled a bit. With some instructors, my joint's don't get pulled but I learn to fly for short distances.

[Mato-san]

Good points about short distance and long distance ,pulls and all the rest of it. The topic interests me so obviously I have been playing with it on the mat.

From my own experimental probe into the realm I have played with holding on to nage for the entire throw (yes I have suffered whiplash before so I know when I really have to let go). I don`t request the same from my partners but I do ask they complete a throw the way it was intended to be.

There is a balance I believe.

Uke can let go early as can Nage, for safety.
Or Uke can hang on as can Nage. Depends how physical you want to get.

Or find the balance and just know.

As nage I would never hang on longer than they could handle, case by case.

[Carsten Möllering]

If he's Tissier, I fall but my joint's get pulled a bit. With some instructors, my joint's don't get pulled but I learn to fly for short distances.
Are you used to throwing uke straight down, vertical?
Or is it away from you, horizontal? "fly for short distances"
Or does ist depend? ;-)

I think both versions need different ukemi?

Carsten

[JO]

My answer to your question is it depends.

I agree the final look of ukemi depends on how the technique is done. However, with the best aikidoka I've trained with, you don't have to know what to expect or what is expected of you, you simply get thrown. The direction is not especially important, although it affects how you land.

The trouble I had with Tissier pulling joints had nothing to do with the direction of the technique. More the fact that he asked me to stand strong and then went through the joints at good speed and power. This requires quick reflexes on uke's part to keep up, which would be unnecessary if nage had proper control of uke's center.

[NagaBaba]

This requires quick reflexes on uke's part to keep up, which would be unnecessary if nage had proper control of uke's center.
Or uke must know the direction of the throw and will anticipate by jumping by himself as the ukes in this style are doing.

Opppsss... we are back to the beginning of discussion LOL

[Ron Tisdale]

Hey Mr. S!

quick question: If during normal training, uke learns direction of the throw from the nage doing the throw with less power, and less speed, while engaging uke's center...and uke therefore knows that nage can complete the throw...

How do you feel about a full power full speed demonstration with said uke anticipating the throw to avoid any possible injury?

In other words, Uke does anticipate, know nage will complete the throw, but they move in that fashion to protect themselves?

Not saying this is happening here, just trying to reason some things out.

Best,
Ron

[JO]

This discussion is steering towards one of my pet peeves in aikido, which is fear based effectiveness. That is techniques that work because uke is afraid for his health. In many situations, it may be the best possible response of uke to anticipate a throw to protect himself, but in my opinion this just demonstrates a flaw in nage's aikido.

My ideal aikido, which may or may not be achievable, is full contact and full speed but nobody gets hurt. I'm not quite sure how you achieve that, but fear based effectiveness is definitely not it. If nage can't throw uke without injuring him, he should stop and try again, even at high speed with uke resisting. Knowing that nage can hurt you is a good thing to remember, but using fear is a crutch, and a weak one at that, becuase if he can jump in anticipation, there is a chance he may be able to do something else. Better for uke to have no choice in the matter.

On a related side note. During the seminar with Tissier, I had lunch with a couple students of Donovan Waite. One mentioned that when Donoan would sense him anticipating the technique he would change it up and drill him in a completely different direction. Now there's a lesson in sensitivity. I've been thrown by Donovan before, he's one of the ones that has shown me how to fly :)

[Carsten Möllering]

My answer to your question is it depends.

I agree the final look of ukemi depends on how the technique is done. However, with the best aikidoka I've trained with, you don't have to know what to expect or what is expected of you, you simply get thrown.Yes, I agree. That' sthe wyay it should be.

I asked this question because some uke don't expect to be led straigh down an move their center away from nage. If they do so it causes trouble for them.

The trouble I had with Tissier pulling joints had nothing to do with the direction of the technique. More the fact that he asked me to stand strong and then went through the joints at good speed and power. Ok, thats another situation.

This requires quick reflexes on uke's part to keep up, which would be unnecessary if nage had proper control of uke's center.
Yes, quick reflexes are needed.
And a flexible, smooth center.

But never ever we try to work through pain or fear. And never ever we have our uke to anticipate our technique. That's a "sin" in our view.
We always try it to do just the way you describe it your teacher does: To control ukes center an lead him - without pulling joints or something like that.

I just tried to understand why you - and some others - made experiences with Christian which I can't really explain to me.

Thank you,
Carsten

[Michael Douglas]

...My ideal aikido, which may or may not be achievable, is full contact and full speed but nobody gets hurt. I'm not quite sure how you achieve that, but fear based effectiveness is definitely not it. If nage can't throw uke without injuring him, he should stop and try again, even at high speed with uke resisting.
Nice post Jonathan, great points you make. :)
Surely a great part of aikido is not trainable at full contact and full speed without cooperation or delusion. Hence the COOPERATIVE nature of almost all aikido practice. Surely it is fine to train this way?

One example : kote gaeshi ... to my mind this technique, aikido style, when fully applied with force and speed to a non-conforming non-anticipatory non-aikido 'attacker' who hasn't trained months/years to achieve very tough joints ... will result in injury or failure. One or the other. (It would NEVER result in a somersault in my opinion.)
I believe this is the intention of most aikido thechniques. The techniques themselves are only able to scrape into the 'non injurious' happy area when either : the uke predicts/anticipates to save himself OR the technique fails but the uke acts as if it succeeds.
Oh by the way, I don't believe Ueshiba ever intended his aikido to be non-injurious.

(Ikkyo I believe is ikkyo for a few reasons, not the least of which it is able to be practiced by newbies without the cooperate-or-break mindset required by a lot of the later techniques)

[Flintstone]

I believe this is the intention of most aikido thechniques. The techniques themselves are only able to scrape into the 'non injurious' happy area when either : the uke predicts/anticipates to save himself OR the technique fails but the uke acts as if it succeeds.
While not Aikido, there's some old footage of Don Angier Sensei demonstrating kotegaeshi and a) uke doesn't anticipate, b) the technique makes uke drop down in a flash AND c) uke is not injured at all. It's now fashionable to call that "IT". I think it's the way to go, not the flying ukes show we are so used to see...

[Michael Douglas]

Good find Alejandro, can you give us a link?

[Flintstone]

Good find Alejandro, can you give us a link?
Sure. Here they are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veyp1dl99Bw&feature=related (from 8:00 till the end)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNQl1MZSuKc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNQl1MZSuKc&feature=related)(continuation of the previous clip)

These two clips feature kotegaeshi, but the whole series is very instructive. Enjoy!

[Michael Douglas]

While not Aikido,...
Indeed. I was referring to the lead-return-wristtwist-somersault thing we see much more often in aikido.

Great vid, I like his careful explanatory style.

[jennifer paige smith]

While not Aikido, there's some old footage of Don Angier Sensei demonstrating kotegaeshi and a) uke doesn't anticipate, b) the technique makes uke drop down in a flash AND c) uke is not injured at all. It's now fashionable to call that "IT". I think it's the way to go, not the flying ukes show we are so used to see...

What you are describing as what Uke is not doing can also be described by what uke ought to be developing: musubi.

As aikidoka, all of the time in any role, we are to develop the same body of principles. In this instance musubi, or attentive connection/tieing, services the transmission system of the vehicle.

As an aikidokist, uke or nage, we operate in the same principles on the same vehicle and when we detect a gap we fill it in practice with a principled application. Again, on 'either side'. That is how I maintain my connection and my realness.

As far as fashion is concerned, I hear the 80's are in, too.:D

[Flintstone]

What you are describing as what Uke is not doing can also be described by what uke ought to be developing: musubi.
Thas, of course, your view. There's no possible musubi in that kind of application, IMHO.

As aikidoka, all of the time in any role, we are to develop the same body of principles. In this instance musubi, or attentive connection/tieing, services the transmission system of the vehicle.
That's your view. In my view, uke's role is to attack (no non sense). And uke's responsability is to learn how to take ukemi safely (and flying high in concrete is not safe in my dictionary).

As an aikidokist, uke or nage, we operate in the same principles on the same vehicle and when we detect a gap we fill it in practice with a principled application. Again, on 'either side'. That is how I maintain my connection and my realness.
Maintaining connection is the role of tori. Never uke's.

As far as fashion is concerned, I hear the 80's are in, too.:D
Good bless the 80's ;)!!

[Demetrio Cereijo]

That's your view. In my view, uke's role is to attack (no non sense). And uke's responsability is to learn how to take ukemi safely
While looking for kaeshi options.

Maintaining connection is the role of tori. Never uke's.
Not sure about that. No connection, no kaeshi. (imho, of course, respectfully etc.)

Good bless the 80's ;)!!
Yeah! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y_gzS3Q200)

PS. Travel cancelled due to work. Sorry.

[Flintstone]

While looking for kaeshi options.
You know we always agree in this particular.

Not sure about that. No connection, no kaeshi. (imho, of course, respectfully etc.)
Yes, that's right. But then I believe we'll agree that this is a different scenario that the one at hand. One thing is to maintain connection while looking for a suki to be exploited, and other very different thing is to maintaing connection to make tori look good.

PS. Travel cancelled due to work. Sorry.
No problem. My agenda is quite busy too ;). We'll meet at some other occasion.

[mathewjgano]

Maintaining connection is the role of tori. Never uke's.

It's not a matter of both maintaining connection? What would you call the intent/action of uke if not an effort at connecting and maintaining connection with nage? How does uke create kaeshi without maintaining connection?

[Flintstone]

It's not a matter of both maintaining connection? What would you call the intent/action of uke if not an effort at connecting and maintaining connection with nage? How does uke create kaeshi without maintaining connection?
Like I said to Demetrio:
Yes, that's right. But then I believe we'll agree that this is a different scenario that the one at hand. One thing is to maintain connection while looking for a suki to be exploited, and other very different thing is to maintaing connection to make tori look good.Ok, to make myself clearer: Uke's role is to attack. That's it. Maintaining connection is of course necessary for kaeshi waza, but then uke becomes tori, isn't it? Uke maintains connection to become tori, not to take a beautiful fall. Tori must not rely on uke maintaining connection. If tori's technique is working only because uke is maintaining connection... well, the technique is worth nothing. He cannot do it to an unexperienced uke. If OTOH tori's relying on uke maintaining connection to avoid injuring uke... well, that's speaks ill about tori's technique too (as an Aikidoka).

Many teachers I've met correct uke forcing him to keep connected so technique will work and look beautiful, NOT to look for the chance to apply a counter. That's my point. Excuse me for my poor English.

[mathewjgano]

Like I said to Demetrio:
Ok, to make myself clearer: Uke's role is to attack. That's it. Maintaining connection is of course necessary for kaeshi waza, but then uke becomes tori, isn't it? Uke maintains connection to become tori, not to take a beautiful fall. Tori must not rely on uke maintaining connection. If tori's technique is working only because uke is maintaining connection... well, the technique is worth nothing. He cannot do it to an unexperienced uke. If OTOH tori's relying on uke maintaining connection to avoid injuring uke... well, that's speaks ill about tori's technique too (as an Aikidoka).

Many teachers I've met correct uke forcing him to keep connected so technique will work and look beautiful, NOT to look for the chance to apply a counter. That's my point. Excuse me for my poor English.
Good points! And no worries on your english. It's my first language and I mess it up almost daily:) .
I think you make a great point about tori not relying on aite to provide connection. I can see where that sort of thing can lead to a lot of the problems people describe about aikido. On the other hand I can see where it might be useful for uke to really work hard on maintaining a connection. I wonder if this kind of thing might be more like an "active stretch" (for lack of a better phrase) to condition the body. There have been times when I have practiced shihonage as uke where I feel like i should simply disconnect, but instead I reach through my connection even more and suddenly nage has a more difficult time completing the movement; I begin to sense kaeshi/suki. But like I said, i think training like that is more about conditioning and playing around with a connection than about simple practical technique since we're usually going at slower speeds when I experience this.
I don't really know though. I train so little these days I'm beginning to think I should listen more than speak.
Thanks for the good thoughts!
Take care,
Matt

[jennifer paige smith]

Note to self: never allow aikido principles to enter ones consciousness while doing ukemi. LOL.

[Walter Martindale]

me bad - haven't read the middle two pages of this thread... Some sensei I've had say "Keep Your Grip!" while they take my wrist/arm/shoulder past it's not-so-flexible-any-more range. Others have the feeling that they should move in such a way that they take my balance without causing my grip to break off, and with me feeling that I have to hold on to save myself, until it's too late. I prefer the latter. Uke should feel as if in control until suddenly the floor is the safest place to be..
My take on it, ennyhoo.
W

[mathewjgano]

me bad - haven't read the middle two pages of this thread... Some sensei I've had say "Keep Your Grip!" while they take my wrist/arm/shoulder past it's not-so-flexible-any-more range. Others have the feeling that they should move in such a way that they take my balance without causing my grip to break off, and with me feeling that I have to hold on to save myself, until it's too late. I prefer the latter. Uke should feel as if in control until suddenly the floor is the safest place to be..
My take on it, ennyhoo.
W

I like the latter better as well. My sense is that in trying to maintain the grip/connection, uke is typically looking to penetrate nage's center (kaeshi) through the initial action. Of course, sometimes it simply doesn't make sense to stay connected if you can disengage. My earlier attempts at shihonage (as nage) come to mind. The somewhat common effect of new uke's walking out of my technique really showed more about my lack of understanding than theirs. For the sake of learning basic form I think it's ok to ask them to humor you, but eventually it should seem to uke that there is no option but to hang on or fall off...again, assuming uke can disengage. I think by definition, when someone has control over your center, they have control over your whole body and thus where it goes...apart from gravity itself which always wins in the end.
Also, if uke is good enough, relative to nage's ability, it has to be dialed back so nage can practice waza. If uke is not good enough, it's more a matter of staying engaged and full/upright as much as possible (maintaining the integrity of a grounded and expanding posture). My thinking is that this issue of relative ability creates room for slack and that it is directly proportional to how much slack there is in the connection that uke will have options. That might seem obvious, but I wonder if many aikidoka practice with a relatively high degree of slack in order to get a sense of flow whereas a judo guy will try to rip your arm from its socket (so to speak) straight away.
Anyhoo...there are my rambling thoughts after a long night of work.
Sweet dreams all,
Matt

[Michael Douglas]

With so many conflicting opinions here (no nasty arguments, which is good) I'd say that just in this one thread there is more than one martial art being discussed but everyone's calling it/them aikido. It makes things confusing.

[jennifer paige smith]

With so many conflicting opinions here (no nasty arguments, which is good) I'd say that just in this one thread there is more than one martial art being discussed but everyone's calling it/them aikido. It makes things confusing.

Personally, I found the same to be true in organizing what I was hearing and learning in aikido for quite some time. When I happened upon the connection of moving in principle, training in principle, relating in principle- my practice got a whole lot more cohesive, consistent, and informative. And now my ability to learn, copy instructors techniques, and teach people effectively is quite developed.

For example, back to musubi, if you move honestly in developed connection you may find a suki in Nages form, but nage will feel that also; in that instance no kaeshi will emerge but a deeper ,more connected throw immediately arises because the level of commited attack uke then provided. So were back to better aikido (not jumping around with no connection) with all honesty intact. It simply works.

[jennifer paige smith]

Many teachers I've met correct uke forcing him to keep connected so technique will work and look beautiful, NOT to look for the chance to apply a counter. That's my point. Excuse me for my poor English.

Agreed.

I guess you might call that situation ME-subi. As in, 'hey, look at me." :D

But it is the function of connection that informs us and then we can make an effective move toward kaeshi (nages center), which also may lead to a beautiful and powerful/functional throw if the suki is closed. That is then good connected information and not blind movement on anyones part.

[Mato-san]

me bad - haven't read the middle two pages of this thread... Some sensei I've had say "Keep Your Grip!" while they take my wrist/arm/shoulder past it's not-so-flexible-any-more range. Others have the feeling that they should move in such a way that they take my balance without causing my grip to break off, and with me feeling that I have to hold on to save myself, until it's too late. I prefer the latter. Uke should feel as if in control until suddenly the floor is the safest place to be..
My take on it, ennyhoo.
W
amen

[Mato-san]

Many teachers I've met correct uke forcing him to keep connected so technique will work and look beautiful, NOT to look for the chance to apply a counter. That's my point. Excuse me for my poor English. Try mixing the 2 maybe, just maybe you will find a balance....practical is in my opinion everything.. but don't ignore or disrespect the principles and/or foundation and the people handing you the obvious. BALANCE.
Peace out!

[JO]

A few comments to variuos ideas in the last few posts.

First I don't care if O-sensei considered aikido to be non injurious. That is my ideal, and at the very least I have met a small number of instructors capable of moving by 167 pounds like a puppet on a string, which gives me an idea of some things I would like to achieve.

Second. Kote gaeshi is the most often badly performed technique i can think of and I know several people who have sustained long term injuries because of that. Put it this way, if your throw completely depends on the painful twisting of the wrist and does not include unbalancing uke, then you really need to work on it because so much is missing.

The question of who is responible for creating the connection in aikido is trickier. At one level it is uke, if he stops attacking, all nage needs to to is walk away and maintain his awareness. At another level, nage needs the find the connection to uke's center during an attack for that is the only way to control uke and achieve something worthy of being considered aikido.

Kaeshi waza is a bit tricky in that the lines between nage and uke get blurred, which I find tricky because I don't consider aikido to be about fighting and if you no longer know who is attacking and who is defending, you're probably fighting (see above about walking away). From a training point of view kaeshi waza is necessary though. How can you say you understand the mechanics of a technique if you can't think of a half a dozen ways to counter it.

In the end, I think uke is responsible for continuing to attack so that there is a need for aikido in the first place. I agree that that attack, icluding any resistense or counters, should be done using the same "feel" as when your are nage, only the intent is different really. At any rate, it takes more, not less, skill to control and/or throw an attacker that is relaxed, has a strong center and knows how to blend with anything you try. That is what forces you to really do aikido and not just try to put on a technique.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Kaeshi waza is a bit tricky in that the lines between nage and uke get blurred, which I find tricky because I don't consider aikido to be about fighting and if you no longer know who is attacking and who is defending, you're probably fighting

Or solving the false dichotomy of attacker vs defender and reaching real harmony.
:)

[Mato-san]

well said jo

[jennifer paige smith]

Try mixing the 2 maybe, just maybe you will find a balance....practical is in my opinion everything.. but don't ignore or disrespect the principles and/or foundation and the people handing you the obvious. BALANCE.
Peace out!

Thanks. Thats what I'm sayin', too. Principles and foundation are practical. Anything else, well ...it is what it is.

Best,
Jen

[jennifer paige smith]

Or solving the false dichotomy of attacker vs defender and reaching real harmony.
:)

Agreed; through musubi, among other things.:)

[Mato-san]

we are doing CT thread here...so is the kaiten nage valid? Or should it be a simple mae ukemi with minimal slap/break? Is the soto kaiten worthy of a pretty fall?
Back on topic
Which waza in the CT syllabus are demanding these falls?

[Mato-san]

I love his soto kaiten

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Back on topic
Which waza in the CT syllabus are demanding these falls?

http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=5987385534280858789

[Mato-san]

ohhh yeah I have that flick too

[Mato-san]

may I mention the the dirty word Seagal....you should should check his flick....The path beyond Thought

[Mato-san]

Practical ikkyo...and a a nice building block.
You should also look at his kotegaishi with the the ken in this flick

[Mato-san]

chotto matte

[Demetrio Cereijo]

ohhh yeah I have that flick too

Then your previous question makes little sense to me. :confused:

[NagaBaba]

A few comments to variuos ideas in the last few posts.

First I don't care if O-sensei considered aikido to be non injurious. That is my ideal, and at the very least I have met a small number of instructors capable of moving by 167 pounds like a puppet on a string, which gives me an idea of some things I would like to achieve.

I agree with most what you wrote, but not with this statement.

If you remove the aspect of danger for health or life from techniques, automatically you remove martial aspect from art. When it happens you can't learn the real intent of attacker - and it implies that you can't learn how to control attacker right from the beginning, when the intent arise in his head......

Of course in that dojo we are trying to preserve save practice, but this is only possible because of cooperative nature of training. However, less cooperative training become, more dangerous situation will arise. The conscious of that relation is the most important for nage and for uke, this is the only way to preserve a good balance in practice.

[NagaBaba]

Hey Mr. S!

quick question: If during normal training, uke learns direction of the throw from the nage doing the throw with less power, and less speed, while engaging uke's center...and uke therefore knows that nage can complete the throw...

How do you feel about a full power full speed demonstration with said uke anticipating the throw to avoid any possible injury?

In other words, Uke does anticipate, know nage will complete the throw, but they move in that fashion to protect themselves?

Not saying this is happening here, just trying to reason some things out.

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,
As you can read in my response to JO, more you have cooperation from attacker, less you should need anticipation from him. It is not a case here.

Normally, when the attack becomes very difficult, nage will close almost all openings in this technique. Then uke has no choice, but anticipates to protect himself- and again, this anticipation should come from his internal feelings of nage work, not from learning intellectually what usually nage does in such situation!

What we see here, very cooperative attack, a lot of openings in nage technique and despite of that, large anticipation from uke.

Harmony with Universe is not preserved very well.;) :D :D

[JO]

Hey Szczepan,

An ideal is something that you aim to for without even knowing if it can be reached. My ideal would be to be able to control somebody trying to kill (extreme violent intent in the attack) me without the need to injure him.

I don't know what the best methods in aiming for this ideal are, but it certainly does not help to remove the martial aspects of the art. So I think uke need to attack, and as strongly as nage can hope to handle (at least some of the time). It is also important for nage to know where the risks of injury are in a technique, in order to avoid injuring his partner. But I still think the technique should work without needing the threat of injury. When people talk about great aikido throws by people like O-sensei they usually talk about making a grab and finding themselves on their backs without knowing how they got there. In such a case, fear and intent play no part, uke's brain has not even been given the time to process any information or emotion.

I think intense and very martial practice can be safely done if nage doesn't mind letting his technique fail once in a while. The truth is I've rarely if ever seen anybody get hurt by the uke, it is usually a careless nage that is not being sensitive enough to the position of uke that causes injuries. He forgets that the training is cooperative and that the resistance and counters are part of the cooperation and not an actual attempt on his life and limb.

[Michael Douglas]

An ideal is something that you aim to for without even knowing if it can be reached. My ideal would be to be able to control somebody trying to kill (extreme violent intent in the attack) me without the need to injure him.
Jonathan do you think M.Ueshiba's ideal was similar?

[NagaBaba]

Hey Szczepan,

An ideal is something that you aim to for without even knowing if it can be reached. My ideal would be to be able to control somebody trying to kill (extreme violent intent in the attack) me without the need to injure him.

Hi JO,
First of all, I would replace 'without the need to injure him' by 'to injure him as less as possible'.It is far more realistic for us, mortels LOL
Well, in my opinion, 'save practice' will never teach you to read intend of attacker and without such capacity, your ideal is technically not possible to reach.

[JO]

I'm not sure what O-sensei's ideal was on a technical level. From what I've read, he seemed to be focussed on things quite outside such "practical" matters. He lived in a world of spirits and gods and the divine that has little resemblance to the Universe as I understand it.

Szczepan, I'm not sure what you mean about detecting the intent of the attacker. Put it this way, you have a dojo, how do you instruct your students to behave as nage and uke, and how do you train them to read the intent of an attacker? I've trained with you enough to know that our training methods are not so drastically different, so what is it I'm missing in your opinion.

By the way, causing the minimum injury necessary is not an ideal, it is common sense. If you cause more injury than is needed to defend yourself, you may end up being classified as a violent criminal. The difference in having no injury as an ideal is that it makes you try to find ways, through increased skill and understanding, to deal with violence in ways that are less destructive than what you could have managed in the past.

[Ron Tisdale]

Jo, Ueshiba Sensei ***trashed*** some of his uke. Plain and simple fact.

Mr. S., nice post, more grist for the mill.

Best,
Ron

[davebradna]

Greetings.

I fall for Christian on regular basis and even though I am far from being any good at it, I still believe I have found a couple of point that might be of help.

1) control your legs: keep them together so that they make one pendulum instead of two, their vector should go in the opposite direction to the direction of your ukemi (looks as if they stay on the original spot) 2) the "focus of the technique" (spot where the technique is applied) and your spine should form one frame of reference (when your wrist, for instance, start to move and your spine doesnt follow, you wont get the result) 3) timing: if you wait for the technique to work, it is too late (Christian is one or two reference points ahead of his uke). Dont worry, its not faking, its actually still pretty much real, your articulation just get a chance to keep its shape. (in case of doubts, please combine this kind of practice with strong static technique by which you might verify)

Hope I was of help. Wish you great fun with your ukemi practice.

Dave B.

[WilliB]

1) control your legs: keep them together so that they make one pendulum instead of two, their vector should go in the opposite direction to the direction of your ukemi (looks as if they stay on the original spot) 2) the "focus of the technique" (spot where the technique is applied) and your spine should form one frame of reference (when your wrist, for instance, start to move and your spine doesnt follow, you wont get the result) 3) timing: if you wait for the technique to work, it is too late (Christian is one or two reference points ahead of his uke).

I have been doing this stuff for a long time, I am pretty comfortable being tossed around, and I have no idea what you are talking about here.

[guest1234567]

This thread was finished in 2008 but revived today.
I agree with most of the writers that Tissiers ukemis are very flashy and if you only know him from videos: he naturally chooses his best ukes for the videos.
I went to a few seminars with Tissier and assure you that he is a great tori, he throwed a 5th kyu from my dojo and it looked spectacular. But the only secret to fall like that is training as much as you can, be very relaxed and have confidence in your tori.

[amoeba]

Hej,
my teachers are also very much influenced by Tissier and I can only agree to what Carsten and others said earlier: no, you do not have to anticipate the throw, and you most definitely never, ever jump or throw yourself. The whole ukemi gets very strange then and it is one of the capital mistakes we have to stop most beginners from doing...;)

I have been falling like this for a few years now and after a while it becomes quite comfortable and natural. And secure, too - I've fallen when uke held both my hands so I couldn't slap - a bit awkward but in no way painful. I've actually tried falling without a tatami (though concrete is a little too hardcore for me), on a normal gym floor - no problem at all, normal forward rolls actually hurt more because I had more contact with the ground.

I don't know if I could fall like that from any throw, there's a lot of styles and Aikidoka that I haven't trained with yet. All I can say is that until now, I've never had any problems. And that that kind of ukemi is a lot of fun to do!
If I'm not thrown into a high fall, I just do a backwards ukemi - where's the problem? I don't decide how I fall, nage does. Unless it's a special exercise to train the breakfalls, obviously!

[davebradna]

I have been doing this stuff for a long time, I am pretty comfortable being tossed around, and I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Hey, thank you for your reply. I am only sharing my thoughts here, ok. Check out this video 1:22 (Bruno taking ukemi) and watch his legs. It almost seems as if he keeps them together and on the spot. That is what I ment by my rather long description. Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MIVo68o6Sg