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Reuben
01-31-2002, 08:06 PM
I haven't found any traditional attacks that come close to resembling the straightforward hook. Some have said it's similiar to dealing with yokomen uchi but I beg to differ. Yokumen uchi involves the striking hand behind the elbow and has the knife edge of the hand as the contact point. With a hook the contact point is the fist and as the name implies it is hooked in so it doesn't seem practical to deal with it in the normal yokomen uchi way. Dealing it as a tsuki doesn't seem appropriate either as the punch is circular and has a wide reach outside the body so it can't be dealt with using the normal entering motion(tenkan?).

So is this a technique that has no traditional methods? I've learnt Aikido for 8 years but have not seen any defences against a hook. I think perhaps the only few ideas that i have in my head are
1. Ducking and then moving outside the blow to do irimi nage or some other similiar technique
2. This is seems a bit dubious and i think would require fiendish timing but is it possible to just step back leading the attack out of its focal point and then entering quickly after the fist of the hook starts to turn into uke's body?

Would appreciate a reply:)

:ai: :ki: :do:

Largo
01-31-2002, 08:19 PM
Hooks are extremely tough, no matter what art you do. Responses (from what I've seen and done) seem to be either soaking or distancing. Hooks are too short and usually to fast to just "dodge" (note: this is about real hooks...not haymakers). Also, their path makes a lot of traditional blocks or deflections invalid if they are even fast enough to be in the way.
If you ever watch boxers, they soak hooks to the head in their guard position. However, if you aren't wearing gloves, that can hurt you worse than the straight shot.
Body hook soaking is a bit easier...but still, just taking shots ain`t fun.
Naturally, best is not to be in range... to be either too close (move to grappling or elbows) or further back. A muay thai tang (a kind of knee strike...but your upper body shifts back) works sometimes (I've seen it...but never managed to move that quick).
Anyways...not sure if this helps, since these weren't really aikido meathods.

Largo

shihonage
01-31-2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Reuben
I haven't found any traditional attacks that come close to resembling the straightforward hook. Some have said it's similiar to dealing with yokomen uchi but I beg to differ. Yokumen uchi involves the striking hand behind the elbow and has the knife edge of the hand as the contact point. With a hook the contact point is the fist and as the name implies it is hooked in so it doesn't seem practical to deal with it in the normal yokomen uchi way. Dealing it as a tsuki doesn't seem appropriate either as the punch is circular and has a wide reach outside the body so it can't be dealt with using the normal entering motion(tenkan?).

So is this a technique that has no traditional methods? I've learnt Aikido for 8 years but have not seen any defences against a hook. I think perhaps the only few ideas that i have in my head are
1. Ducking and then moving outside the blow to do irimi nage or some other similiar technique
2. This is seems a bit dubious and i think would require fiendish timing but is it possible to just step back leading the attack out of its focal point and then entering quickly after the fist of the hook starts to turn into uke's body?

Would appreciate a reply:)

:ai: :ki: :do:

Senshido tapes (www.senshido.com) have excellent demonstrations on defenses against all kinds of attacks (TUC set 1).

They involve closing your center or opening up, jamming, depending on the nature of the punch. Very interesting/realistic stuff.

The instructor doesn't take double-takes, he doesn't always go slow, but sometimes realtime, and he just DOES it.

Reuben
01-31-2002, 11:50 PM
Although I appreciate techniques from other martial arts outside Aikido, I really want to be proven wrong about Aikido being unable to deal with hooks. Anything that doesn't require direct strikes or injuring the other opponent would be good with the fluidity that is so characteristic of Aikido.

Besides I'm just a student and can't afford tapes such as those with my current budget. And I don't have a credit card;). Senshido seems effective enough from the pictures i've seen but they too closely resemble street fighting for my liking(i'm not saying it's not effective i'm just saying it's not in my taste). Kneeing groins seem totally against my philosophy of self defence.

It is impossible that samurai had nothing against any tom dick and harry's hook? I don't believe i'm the first to have thought of this and it is rather absurd if a well established art such as Aikido was found to be incomplete?:freaky:

:ai: :ki: :do:

guest1234
02-01-2002, 12:04 AM
I'm thinking a good place to figure out a way is on the mat with a study buddy, or if all else fails, a sempai or sensei...

the options you first mentioned sound to me like what we are taught to do to yokomen and tsuki, or to a roundhouse if the teacher is feeling more like dragging the attack into 20th century attack terms... but that is how I interpret it, anyway...ask anyone who knows me, I'm terrible at punches (I have been accused of hitting like a girl, though usually not more than once by the same partner):D

Andy
02-01-2002, 12:05 AM
Maai & irimi.

shihonage
02-01-2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Reuben
Kneeing groins seem totally against my philosophy of self defence.

It is impossible that samurai had nothing against any tom dick and harry's hook? I don't believe i'm the first to have thought of this and it is rather absurd if a well established art such as Aikido was found to be incomplete?:freaky:


Attacker: Hey Reuben, I'm about to attack you.
Reuben: Okay sir but please no kneeing in the groin. Or ripping off my ears. Or hair grabbing. Or eye-gouging.
Attacker: Okay, if you say so sir.
Reuben: How kind of you, Attacker. Also, no hitting, please.
Attacker: How about a round of chess ?
Reuben: I'm game ! (gets socked in the head)

guest1234
02-01-2002, 12:46 AM
My main concern with kneeing groins, is, well, er :blush:, it is a rather smallish target. Sorry:(

When I went away to college, my brother, a SAC in the FBI at the time, offered to teach me self defense. 'OH BOY, OH BOY' I thought, jumping at the chance to learn really neat things. He taught me to fake a faint, step on the instep, and run like hell screaming "FIRE". He especially cautioned against going for the groin, pointing out difficulting in hitting a moving target often higher than a short person effectively reaches, and that should I miss, my intent would be clear evileyes and would only make him less happy with me.

unsound000
02-01-2002, 05:23 AM
I've taken some boxing and I'm taking jujitsu. YOu have two options with a hook. Bob and weave or hug the bastard. Both worked for Ali and are non-violent. Hugging a boxer really tightly and not letting go tends to confuse them. A hook is a very short range punch. It can't be thrown from a distance so you will know that the guy is coming at you but you won't see the punch til it's too late. If someone comes at you like this, either back away or get ready to make a new friend with hugging (boxers like to say "clinch" cuz it's more manly);). I know you may want a throw but it's not going to happen with this punch.

Originally posted by Reuben
I haven't found any traditional attacks that come close to resembling the straightforward hook. Some have said it's similiar to dealing with yokomen uchi but I beg to differ. Yokumen uchi involves the striking hand behind the elbow and has the knife edge of the hand as the contact point. With a hook the contact point is the fist and as the name implies it is hooked in so it doesn't seem practical to deal with it in the normal yokomen uchi way. Dealing it as a tsuki doesn't seem appropriate either as the punch is circular and has a wide reach outside the body so it can't be dealt with using the normal entering motion(tenkan?).

So is this a technique that has no traditional methods? I've learnt Aikido for 8 years but have not seen any defences against a hook. I think perhaps the only few ideas that i have in my head are
1. Ducking and then moving outside the blow to do irimi nage or some other similiar technique
2. This is seems a bit dubious and i think would require fiendish timing but is it possible to just step back leading the attack out of its focal point and then entering quickly after the fist of the hook starts to turn into uke's body?

Would appreciate a reply:)

:ai: :ki: :do:

L. Camejo
02-01-2002, 06:38 AM
Hi Reuben,

I'm sorry to see that you've been doing Aikido for 8 years and have never come across a realistic response for a hook.

It's also kinda sad to see that no one could provide a good Aikido response either.

One possibility (which works under resistance) is to enter inside the arc of the punch and, turning with the punch, break the attacker's balance downward in a circle.

At the point of breaking balance, reverse the direction of a punch by utilising ikkyo or nikkyo with a strong pivot of your hips and a large swing of your arms across the attacker's body. At this point you have the person in an ikkyo or nikkyo lock, bent over, head pointing to the ground. What happens next is up to you - takedown, throw, pin - your choice.

Another example (which also works with a resisting attacker) is a powerful irimi to get you inside the arc of the punch. Atemi to the face on entry (making the attacker run into your hand almost) and then do shihonage from the inside.

Basically, what Andy said also is very true - maai and irimi.

I'll try to get pictures to show you what I mean. Words just don't do justice to explain techniques like this one. But I hope this is of some value to you.

Masakatsu Agatsu
L.C.:ai::ki:

Ghost Fox
02-01-2002, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by unsound000
Hugging a boxer really tightly and not letting go tends to confuse them. A hook is a very short range punch. It can't be thrown from a distance so you will know that the guy is coming at you but you won't see the punch til it's too late. If someone comes at you like this, either back away or get ready to make a new friend with hugging (boxers like to say "clinch" cuz it's more manly);). I know you may want a throw but it's not going to happen with this punch.



I don't know if this is aikido, but I did it during Jiyu waza (free technique) and the Yudansha seemed to approve.

You step into clinch and cover the distance fast. You hug :blush: your uke slipping your arms under his. Pivot keeping hara to hara contact and sacrifice throw. Both of you will end up on the ground with nage lying on top of uke:blush:.

I've seen it done in jujitsu, and Graeco Roman Wrestling. It's feels almost like a hip throw. It catches most people by surprise, but you have to be really committed to entering.

****************
Originally posted by Aleksey Sundeyev


Attacker: Hey Reuben, I'm about to attack you.
Reuben: Okay sir but please no kneeing in the groin. Or
ripping off my ears. Or hair grabbing. Or eye-gouging.
Attacker: Okay, if you say so sir.
Reuben: How kind of you, Attacker. Also, no hitting, please.
Attacker: How about a round of chess ?
Reuben: I'm game ! (gets socked in the head)



Now thats funny:D

Reuben
02-01-2002, 07:28 AM
Haha when i mean i don't like groin kicks it means I don't want to do it to other ppl.:) Not that i want to receive it either haha but u know what i mean. I appreciate the sarcasm :roll eyes:

Quote from L. Camejo
One possibility (which works under resistance) is to enter inside the arc of the punch and, turning with the punch, break the attacker's balance downward in a circle.
End quote

So u mean the entering is like yokomen? But doesn't the hook end up hooking inwards so how do you actually enter inside a closed arc?
I look forward to seeing images of this as i find it tough to imagine it. As you said words don't do it justice.

As with Maai and Irimi it seems quite a plausible defence which was something like the 2nd alternative which i mentioned or is it somehow different? So distance wait till the focal point of the punch has been passed, move in quickly then irimi? Correct me if I'm wrong! :confused:

Ghost Fox: How about against multiple attackers? Wouldn't the falling on the ground make you vulnerable?

Btw, thank you for all your replies and keep them coming!
:ai: :ki: :do:

bcole23
02-01-2002, 10:49 AM
(please excuse glaring errors and paraphrasing, just read meaning :P)

Haymaker:
other wise known as wild stupid punch from way outside.

Hook:
Mean nasty punch.

Boxers are very centered, very quick, and don't want to kill you with one strike. From the Budo of Japan, you were supposed to strike with the upmost intent on killing your oppenent. Boxers will tag you with punches so quick, you can barely see them. That just stuns you so they can lay you out. They use feints, body movement, and even :eek: maai.
I think most people miss the point of Aikido. If you look at it from the point of fighting, then you can go no further than simply doing technique. Find the budo. Learn to control, not just uke, but everything. That includes the environment, uke, yourself, etc.
There are a myriad of responses to this punch. It depends on so many factors.. What is the proper technique to use against a hook? Punch him in the nose! Nobody got killed right?

.
.
.
<digression>
I really get the feeling that 90% of the people in Aikido have never been in a real fight where someone is trying to get you no matter what.
I had a friend in high school that was relatively small, about 5'6' 120lbs. But he was so good at fighting, he'd hit you about 10 times before you could get anywhere near him.
</digression>

NOTE on post from above.
Since when did self defense mean that one cannot harm their attacker? In a perfect world, I can do Aikido just as well as Osensei. But I can't. If the attacker is more proficient than me and I can't get away etc..etc.. then I can use everything in my ability to resolve the situation. I'm not going to get killed trying to hold onto ideals that I'm unable to enact in the real world yet, but I'll do my best.

また今度、
ブランドン

lt-rentaroo
02-01-2002, 11:03 AM
Hello,

I recommend Tenchinage. Here's how you do it. If hook punch is with right hand, you enter towards uke's right side, using your left hand to "cut down" against the hook punch. At the same time, you deliver atemi to uke's forehead, nose, or chin with your right hand (open palm). The initial "cut down" with your left hand will unbalance uke, the atemi combined with the final Tenchinage movement to the left will plop uke on his backside. This works equally well if uke delivers a right and left hook punch in rapid succession.

I've done it, it works. Nothing fancy about it, just simple body positioning and balance taking.

shihonage
02-01-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by bcole23

<digression>
I really get the feeling that 90% of the people in Aikido have never been in a real fight where someone is trying to get you no matter what.
I had a friend in high school that was relatively small, about 5'6' 120lbs. But he was so good at fighting, he'd hit you about 10 times before you could get anywhere near him.
</digression>



Ah-ha ! Precisely.
I've had a few of these encounters, which usually ended up in me having a brand new blackeye.
What didn't occur to me at the time is that I for some reason thought that I was BOUND to strike back.

I wonder what would happen if I just maintained distance thus forcing either a dedicated strike or no strike at all.

[Censored]
02-01-2002, 12:51 PM
Although I appreciate techniques from other martial arts outside Aikido, I really want to be proven wrong about Aikido being unable to deal with hooks. Anything that doesn't require direct strikes or injuring the other opponent would be good with the fluidity that is so characteristic of Aikido.

You want stop an attacker, without injuring them? Let them hit you until they get bored, then buy them an ice cream cone.

Let me suggest an alternative. Meet a tight hook with a tighter hook, and meet a tighter hook with a straight.

It is impossible that samurai had nothing against any tom dick and harry's hook? I don't believe i'm the first to have thought of this and it is rather absurd if a well established art such as Aikido was found to be incomplete?

Aikido is 70 years old. Rest assured the samurai did not use it.

guest1234
02-01-2002, 01:57 PM
OK, I'll admit to being slow, and not really knowing anything about boxing... so I did at least try to watch a little in a movie, and I better understand (I think) what several are saying about maai...

For an effective hook (or any other move, for that matter?) it does look like a boxer needs to be standing a lot closer than I'd want someone to be near me unless we were on friendly terms.I mean, goodness, to stand that close to someone kind of implies wanting to hit or be hit (or both) I would think.:eek:

Or he needs to step in to close the gap and then hit me... so isn't the way to work with that either keeping a good distance to start with, or move (in, around, whatever) with the movement he must make to close the distance, not waiting for the hook? wouldn't waiting for the hook kind of be like standing in place for the shomen strike in shomenuchi ikkyo?:confused:

I think the distance we usually keep in training wouldn't work if you wanted to actually box, a boxer would keep trying to close the distance and we would keep trying to increase it. Or at least they looked a lot closer to me. Of course, movie boxing is probably no more real than movie Aikido...

bcole23
02-01-2002, 03:17 PM
Any good fighter or MA (if properly angry at you) will chase you down if you run, try to back you into corners or against walls, and generally try to get you in a bad way while keeping themselves safe. The best technique as always is 話わざ (hanashi waza) or speaking techniques.

Barring that, the ability to give an opening to your attacker that you can take advantage of is a skill that should be developed. The Book of Five Rings by Musashi extrapolates this idea very well. These are the tactics and strategies of combat that many Aikidoka (or Taekwondoka etc) don't even think of until after they get their black belt.

In MA, you get your black belt when you have learned the basics of the art. So when you get your black belt, you are really a beginner. Aikido is just so different and deep, that it takes years to learn the basics. Learning the multitude of variances of power, speed, intent, environment, height, arm/leg length, footing, price of rice in China, and other things is what takes so long in learning Aikido.

But your question is what is the proper technique for defending against a hook. Maybe go to your sensei and ask what is the proper way to blend? After you've harmonized, technique will naturally flow from there.

So, how would I blend with a hook? Use timing and distance, then enter. Be like light spilling into a room through just a crack in the door.

Then buy your attacker ice cream. Some of my best friends are the ones I've had fights with.

気をつけって!
ブランドン

bcole23
02-01-2002, 03:28 PM
BTW, you'd definitely be suprised at how fast a boxer can close on you and how far away they can hit you from.

and..
アイスクリムをとてもおいしいね!?
私は全部食べるしまっただろう!

(I hope that says:
Ice cream is delicious eh!?
I'll suppose I'll eat it all.)

Brandon

shihonage
02-01-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by bcole23
アイスクリムをとてもおいしいね!?
私は全部食べるしまっただろう!

(I hope that says:
Ice cream is delicious eh!?
I'll suppose I'll eat it all.)


Let me just say this -

アイス とても, ただろう! ヒ!? ヘ全部食,
驍オ とても .

bcole23
02-01-2002, 03:48 PM
<B>
アイス とても, ただろう! ヒ!? ヘ全部食,
驍オ・とても </B>

日本語が勉強しますの好きです。

I didn't quite get your post..
<romaji>
aisu ??temo, ta darou! hi!?
Zenbu tabe takeshi ??temo
</romaji>
I think I might be using the wrong encoding on my browser cuz some of your characters turn up a little weird.

You gotta give me some help here..

( hi in katakana??)

shihonage
02-01-2002, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by bcole23

I think I might be using the wrong encoding on my browser cuz some of your characters turn up a little weird.

You gotta give me some help here..


Sorry, I simply copy-pasted some of your characters in random order :)

By the way they look like garbage on systems with no Japanese language support installed.

bcole23
02-01-2002, 04:57 PM
Yeah people who type in Japanese are annoying, I know.. :D

However, to keep on topic.

How to defend against hooks.

Don't stand behind your buddy when he's fishing.

er..

UKE: throws right hook
Nage: steps to the right while turning 45 deg. and draws (not grab) punch while atemi to the head thus throwing uke.

Check out some video of Inoue Sensei. He's got some vids that will show you just what you're looking for I believe.

shihonage
02-01-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by bcole23

How to defend against hooks.

Don't stand behind your buddy when he's fishing.


:)

bcole23
02-01-2002, 05:23 PM
You'll notice in this picture the perfect body positioning, the extension, the living calmness..
You'll also see the opposite.

[Censored]
02-01-2002, 05:41 PM
But your question is what is the proper technique for defending against a hook. Maybe go to your sensei and ask what is the proper way to blend?

By all means ask your teacher, but also consider this: would you ask a boxer how to reverse a sankyo?

bcole23
02-01-2002, 06:13 PM
By all means ask your teacher, but also consider this: would you ask a boxer how to reverse a sankyo?

Ahh yes. I imagine a boxer would say they'd punch the snot out of them. Boxing is not a martial art. Aikido however, is. Martial artists tend to think about these things where as in boxing, tae-bo, or yoga, you learn how to box, burn, or bend better, respectively.

I wouldn't ask a boxer this question because it's not in his realm of knowledge. However, it is in Aikido. I would be fully justified in asking.

But if you ask a boxer, "What would you do if someone tried stepping around to get behind you?" he/she would have an answer.

I believe the big question to ask is,
"When do we start learning to deal with drunken boxing?"

Well, we're not going to be seeing much drunken boxing except from Mr. Chan. So by incorporating boxing, grappling, and tae-bo into our everyday practice, we can be better able to defend ourselves against the average tae-bo black belt on the street.

Aikido is growing. Maybe there is no "kao no hook tsuki waza" but it's all there. There is no set do this, do that. That's what O-sensei means by encompassing the universe. Many of the master have said that you first learn the form or way, then you must remove yourself from the self-imposed bindings that puts on you to truly become free to embody the way.

Umm, I'm not being articulate today, but you get the gist I hope.

Brandon

bcole23
02-01-2002, 06:35 PM
:eek: I just realized what a glaring error I made in my last post.

Well, we're not going to be seeing much drunken boxing except from Mr. Chan.
The time when the majority of altercations take place is happy hour!!
:p
:confused:
:freaky:
:dead:

shihonage
02-01-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by bcole23
:eek: I just realized what a glaring error I made in my last post.


The time when the majority of altercations take place is happy hour!!
:p
:confused:
:freaky:
:dead:

Thankfully the only time I was punched by a drunk, I managed to block both of his haymakers.

Drunks are easier to defend from.

Reuben
02-01-2002, 11:14 PM
Brandon: Yeah I totally agree with you in the sense that the black belt is just the beginning of your journey.:) Not that i'm implying there's an end of the journey but just that it's only then can you begin to touch beyond the surface of Aikido.

I will ask my Sensei on Tuesday.

I remembered when I was a little boy and asked him what do you do against kicks. I still can't remember exactly what he did but he just caught my kick and then pressed a nerve point somewhere on my calf and next thing i knew i was on the floor in pain trying not to shout out.

I hope there's no repeat of this ;) Haha Oh man my sensei is a sadist. He must have got it from his friend Fujita.

Ciaoz!

jimvance
02-02-2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by bcole23
Boxing is not a martial art. Aikido however, is.
I am not a boxer, but I would consider boxing a martial art, as much as wrestling or sumo or judo. In western terms, most sport evolved from military training. We see ancient Greek infantry combat still in practice on rugby and American football fields.
People practicing Aikido think they are martial artists, when most are not being martial and a very few are being artists. I really hate the term "martial arts" and how cliche it has become. If you really want to get picky, Aikido is not a martial art (bugei or bujutsu) but a martial way. It is budo, which does not really have a succinct Western translation. Nuff said.
Any good combat system relies on intelligence, feedback, knowing what the other guy is doing. When Aikidoists bring up the subject of boxing, we get real antsy because most good boxers could beat the stuffing out of us. We try to apply wrist grabs and sweeping forehead strikes to someone who moves fast, doesn't mind getting hit a couple of times, and dishes out combination punches. No wonder our "technique rationale" doesn't work. So we talk about ma-ai and timing, like that is going to save our bacon when we are cornered with nowhere to run. Do we train ma ai as if we were cornered with nowhere to run? Get backed into the ropes with someone punching your solar plexus and try to do shihonage. We are at a disadvantage because of training differences. And that is our greatest strength.
Boxing is a sport. There are rules. Like not hitting someone on the back of the head. Like not covering their gloves with yours. Like not biting ears (couldn't resist). Using this as intelligence gains the upper hand against a boxer. Boxers don't know how to fall down very well. Joint locks are not allowed. Foot sweeps and hip throws are illegal.
Here's a strategy against a hook. I am going to get hit using this strategy because boxers are good at hitting things. When I get within striking distance of a boxer, I will cover their hands with mine, maybe as they are taking a swing. I will move quickly or spin him around to get behind him. Then I will use a hadaka jime (naked choke) to subdue him as I drag him to the ground.
Is it Aikido? Not technically. But it isn't boxing either. That is half the battle. Exploiting tactical weakness is the basis of all technique. Creating tactical weakness while exploiting it is real aiki. Kobo ichi.

Jim Vance

Erik
02-02-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by jimvance
Then I will use a hadaka jime (naked choke) to subdue him as I drag him to the ground.


I'd been planning on suggesting that they "tackle the fothermucker", but your explanation works too.

evileyes

unsound000
02-03-2002, 02:06 AM
This is exactly what you need to do. A takedown. Very little style points here and little art to see but effective. I got the impression Reuben wanted some cool wrist lock or throw that sends uke out 10 feet. This ain't going to happen with a trained fighter. From what I understand, the pretty, peaceful ideals of aikido (and other arts) kind of go out the window when you have some trained person that is cooly trying to take your head off. A more budo attitude takes over. Jim makes sense.



Originally posted by Ghost Fox


I don't know if this is aikido, but I did it during Jiyu waza (free technique) and the Yudansha seemed to approve.

You step into clinch and cover the distance fast. You hug :blush: your uke slipping your arms under his. Pivot keeping hara to hara contact and sacrifice throw. Both of you will end up on the ground with nage lying on top of uke:blush:.

I've seen it done in jujitsu, and Graeco Roman Wrestling. It's feels almost like a hip throw. It catches most people by surprise, but you have to be really committed to entering.

****************


Now thats funny:D

Largo
02-03-2002, 02:57 AM
I loved the last couple of posts.... good comments on techinique, and about the whole "boxing and wrestling being martial arts".
As far as strengths of boxers and kickboxers (sorry...don't know anything about wrestling...and it shows) is that they fight extremely well trained, in shape fighters. Anybody can take on an overweight drunk (provided you aren't that drunk either).
If martial arts are about strategy, isn't devising and executing a plan technically part of our art? Just because I do aikido, does it forbid me from coming up with something new? (Then again, every time I think I have, it's either not a good idea, or somebody else thought of it first and does it better ;-) )

Largo

p.s.- on the whole knee attack bit... tangs are aimed for the solar plexus...which is a beautiful place for any atemi

guest1234
02-03-2002, 10:05 AM
I have a question about saying things along the lines of "well, what we do in class doesn't/won't work 'in the street' " :( , or that we can't expect to do techniques when faced with a trained boxer or wrester wanting to take us down: (and I probably have the details wrong, someone from Ki Society feel free to correct me :confused: ), but on Koichi Tohei Sensei's first tours to the US, when he was introducing the art of Aikido to very large Americans, did he not essentially do randori against multiple (5 or 10??) trained Judoka and/or wrestler (or boxers?) during his demonstrations? How was his Aikido different that it worked against trained attackers who were not chosen as ukes, but rather came to the demo to prove Aikido did not work?

jimvance
02-03-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by ca
I have a question about saying things along the lines of "well, what we do in class doesn't/won't work 'in the street' " :( , or that we can't expect to do techniques when faced with a trained boxer or wrester wanting to take us down: It won't work. Kata by definition is prearranged, with a "winner" and a "loser". This is what allows us to train using deadly intent. Even randori is not true to life, since it has a different intent than shiai. Neither are physical conditioning methods used to enhance what nature has given us, which is what founded sport.
I don't think training in budo prepares us directly for combat, that is not its goal. Indirectly it plants the seeds of combative intent and intuition, so that people who practice budo have an extra edge on the minimum prerequisites (strength, quickness, etc.), proportionate to the length of time spent training. In other words, budo training allows us to cheat on nature.
This was the unspoken message in my first post. Aikido does not compare to boxing because it is a martial way, budo, not a martial sport, or even a bujutsu. Mike Tyson is not looking for the Tao, regardless of how many books he read in prison.

(and I probably have the details wrong, someone from Ki Society feel free to correct me :confused: ), but on Koichi Tohei Sensei's first tours to the US, when he was introducing the art of Aikido to very large Americans, did he not essentially do randori against multiple (5 or 10??) trained Judoka and/or wrestler (or boxers?) during his demonstrations? How was his Aikido different that it worked against trained attackers who were not chosen as ukes, but rather came to the demo to prove Aikido did not work? Don't forget that these Americans came to him, and were probably "checked out" beforehand by Tohei's guys. These tours were only fifteen years after the end of WWII, in an America rife with anti-Japanese sentiment. Aikido does have sharp edges and painful joint locks used on judo men changed some minds. My first Aikido teacher learned that in the early sixties. Watch the film "Rendez-vous with Adventure" and compare it to the stories you are hearing. I sure have heard a lot of different ones.

Jim Vance

Reuben
02-03-2002, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by jimvance
It won't work. Kata by definition is prearranged, with a "winner" and a "loser". This is what allows us to train using deadly intent. Even randori is not true to life, since it has a different intent than shiai. Neither are physical conditioning methods used to enhance what nature has given us, which is what founded sport.
I don't think training in budo prepares us directly for combat, that is not its goal. Indirectly it plants the seeds of combative intent and intuition, so that people who practice budo have an extra edge on the minimum prerequisites (strength, quickness, etc.), proportionate to the length of time spent training. In other words, budo training allows us to cheat on nature.
This was the unspoken message in my first post. Aikido does not compare to boxing because it is a martial way, budo, not a martial sport, or even a bujutsu. Mike Tyson is not looking for the Tao, regardless of how many books he read in prison.

Don't forget that these Americans came to him, and were probably "checked out" beforehand by Tohei's guys. These tours were only fifteen years after the end of WWII, in an America rife with anti-Japanese sentiment. Aikido does have sharp edges and painful joint locks used on judo men changed some minds. My first Aikido teacher learned that in the early sixties. Watch the film "Rendez-vous with Adventure" and compare it to the stories you are hearing. I sure have heard a lot of different ones.

Jim Vance

Well if you looked at it on the other side of the coin, if these ppl were full of anti japanese sentiment i would think they would have given it their all in trying to beat this so called Japanese master and once again proving that Japanese can be beaten.

Largo
02-04-2002, 01:21 AM
I have a question about saying things along the lines of "well, what we do in class doesn't/won't work 'in the street' " , or that we can't expect to do techniques when faced with a trained boxer or wrester wanting to take us down:
I glanced back over my last posts, and I guess it does kinda look like I was saying that a boxer could take down an aikidoka. Trust me, I don't think that at all (if a boxer or a kickboxer could take down an aikidoka that easily I wouldn't let my sensei toss me around like a rag doll:disgust: ) I've found that things do work...just sometimes not the way we expect.

Ghost Fox
02-04-2002, 08:07 AM
I'll just want to expand a little on what Largo stated.

What you do in real life situations is going to look nothing like what you do in the dojo. It's similar to the difference between Randori and Waza practice. During a waza uke and I are trying to work on and perfect a particular technique, be it Koshinage or what have you. If you ever watched Randori you almost never see a pure technique being performed. What you see is body movements and concepts coming into play. You see hybrid of wazas, strange mergers of various wazas.

I really don't know what I would do against a boxer, I really don't know what I would do in a fight period (It's been such a long time, and not as angry as I used to be.). Each time that I engage in a confrontation it's completely new. All I can do is keep my maai, try to stay as relaxed as possible with all the adrenaline flowing through my veins. Try to keep the thoughts of choking under pressure out of my head. Be patient, wait for my opening, and launch in with wild abandon.

I do think what you learn in the dojo can work in the street, as long as you remain free flowing and not try to make an attack or defense conform to something you are used to in the dojo.

******

Originally posted by Reuben


Ghost Fox: How about against multiple attackers? Wouldn't the falling on the ground make you vulnerable?



I do agree it's not the most ideal position to be in. If you land correctly you're almost in a runner's start pose (lunge), and can get up relatively quickly. I actually performed the technique in randori once when I got caught with an uke being to close to perform a standard waza. The other ukes were so surprise to see their partner fly threw the air that they all leapt back to avoid being hit. The awe continued long enough for me to roll over the uke's body and get into a better position.

Peace and Blessings.

Chuck.Gordon
02-04-2002, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Reuben
Kneeing groins seem totally against my philosophy of self defence.

Hmm. I guess you have to really look at how you define self-defense, then. In the dojo, we study for the ideal. In the street, when the feces hit the fan, I believe the best strategy is to be open to ANY strategy that keeps you alive and in one piece.

That said, no, the groin's simply not a good target, I think. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

More to the topic, first, while studying any traditional budo (including aikido) will give you some great tools that can be adapted to use in self defense, the fact of the matter is that MOST budo is simply not suited to self defense in this day and age.

Good budo training SHOULD teach you excellent timing, control of your space, awareness, stability, movement etc etc etc.

However, most budo is a snapshot, or a series of snapshots out of time.

Traditional attacks in aikido and the attacks you might face today can overlap and can have much similarity, but there are things in each that simply do not.

I know of aikido dojo teaching defense against modern (boxing/street-fighting/etc) attacks, and that's a good thing, but it's something added to the art (not a bad thing, either) and not really part of the core curriculum.

The argument can be made that a 'living' budo must adapt, change, incorporate new ideas and techniques. This line of thought would lead one to examine critically any dojo that ONLY taught the trad. attacking methodoligies.

I believe both sides of that coin are valid. I thing the trad. stuff must be preserved, but that there's no wrong in finding ways to adapt trad. theory and practice to modern situations.

Then, the answer to your question "How to deal with a hook" is to experiment, to build from the basics you already know (and after 8 years should have a solid grasp upon).

ANY attack can be analyzed and deconstructed using the concepts you already know. Then apply those concepts to what you learn about the attack. This presumes of course, that you must learn HOW to throw a proper hook in order to reverse-engineer it and learn to counter it.

A dear friend who's done aikido for many years has recently begun playing with some of us 'dark side' folks and was in his first newaza situation a while back. His partner, a judo sandan, easily pinned him and kept him from doing much but squirming.

He lay there panting and asked the judoka what he was doing wrong. Judoka says "You do aikido, you do very NICE aikido. Just do aikido here."

A light clicked on above the aikidoka's head ... almost visibly! He started applying the principles and ideas he already knew.

While he did not (indeed, likely might not ever) instantly defeat the judoka, he DID find the going much easier and gave back pretty well. He even got the judoka on his back, pinned him and kept him down for a considerable time. Since then, his newaza has gotten much better.

It is impossible that samurai had nothing against any tom dick and harry's hook? I don't believe i'm the first to have thought of this and it is rather absurd if a well established art such as Aikido was found to be incomplete?

Ehh. Tough question. Systems of jujutsu used by Japan's warrior class and later by Japan's middle and commoner classes did include a wide range of attack and defense concepts.

Understand that the average foot soldier probably was handed a spear and his drill instructor said "Sharp end goes that way, blunt end goes this way, don't break ranks, don't stick your buddy" and sent him off on his merry way. Any additional training was of the life-or-death variety or possibly occured back in the barracks comparing survival notes with his buddies.

Only in times of peace did they have enough time to really do any serious martial arts study.

The higher class the samurai/bushi, the more opportunity he had to train in an organized fashion. And even then, the better-trained samurai corss-trained extensively.

Understand that what you are studying in aikido is, while a discrete whole, still largely incomplete in terms of 'what the samurai did'. Ueshiba and his students removed much and replaced much that was present in older jujutsu systems he had studied. Same thing in judo or other systems.

Why? Many reasons. Some of them pertaining to the same things I talked about above. Times changed, techniques were adapted, changed, dropped, added. No system of budo is completely free of that sort of evolutionary shift.

And none is fre of the process of synthesis, of having bits grafted on from other ryuha.

For a very nice overview of 'what the samurai did', in terms of jujutsu, read Serge Mol's excellent book "Classical Fighting Arts of Japan" as well as Diane Skoss' koryu budo series and Karl Friday's "Legacy of the Sword".

Chuck

Chuck.Gordon
02-04-2002, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by jimvance

...get picky, Aikido is not a martial art (bugei or bujutsu) but a martial way. It is budo, which does not really have a succinct Western translation. ...


Ehhh ... I have to disagree. Aikido is budo, yes. It is also a part of the bujutsu and bugei.

The line is so blurry as to be damn near indistinguishable.

The use of "do" in martial systems in Japan came about long before Kano named his art Judo and WAY before Ueshiba named his art aikido.

It is a reflection and extension of the personal and spiritual changes we effect through training in the bujutsu. We study bujutsu, we live budo.

Justu and do are facets, and are not, indeed, discrete concepts. Both are part of bugei.

Otaki Risuke of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is well-known for using 'do' when referring to his arts. So are other such folks.

When we seperate the do from the jutsu, we're drawing a very artificial line, and one not easily maintained.

If you study say, Toda Ha Buko Ryu for 20 years and as result, find great inner peace, grow spiritually, evolve as a person, have you only done 'jutsu'?

If you study say, ASU aikido for 20 years and, in a fight, successfully defend yourself and loved ones, have you only done 'do'?

Using 'do' and 'jutsu' as discriminators in describing Japanese martial systems is largely a Western affectation and was probably largely spawned by the writings of the late Don Draeger.

He tried valiently to explain, in Western terms, some things that were very alien to us back then. And did a damn good job.

However, in the years following, more avenues have opened for Westerners to study budo, more research has occured, more analyses been done.

What we find today, is that DO and JUTSU are not seperate, they are indeed so intimately intertwined that it is simply impossible to say "This is DO and that is JUTSU!"

And it smacks of a certain arrogance (please understand, I'm not calling YOU arrogant, only the attitude one finds in certain organizations) in certain budo circles. "We are a more highly evolved system! We do blahblahDO, not that nasty, barbaric blahblahJUTSU!"

It's just not a valid way to examine things.

In terms of aikido, Ueshiba created a very beautiful, powerful system of jujutsu which, in later years, he opted to call 'aikido' ... however, there is no concept in aikido that did not exist before he synthesized his art.

That did not make what he taught any less jujutsu. It is still jujutsu and could easily be considered Ueshiba-ha Daito Ryu, except that he opted not to call it that (again, only in later years. Many of his early students were taught Daito Ryu and the early shihans received DR menkyo.)

What he did was create a system that reflected his personal needs and motivations, one that fit his religious and philosophical bent.

And this, ultimately, is what we each must as we study the budo.

Chuck

PeterR
02-04-2002, 11:47 AM
Hi Chuck;

Two very good posts in close succession - slow weekend? :rolleyes:

Chuck.Gordon
02-04-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
Hi Chuck;

Two very good posts in close succession - slow weekend? :rolleyes:

Heh! Slow Monday.

cg

jimvance
02-04-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Chuck Gordon
And it smacks of a certain arrogance (please understand, I'm not calling YOU arrogant, only the attitude one finds in certain organizations) in certain budo circles. "We are a more highly evolved system! We do blahblahDO, not that nasty, barbaric blahblahJUTSU!"

It's just not a valid way to examine things.
This was the point I was trying to make in regards to Western vs. Eastern disciplines. As westerners, we tend to get real interested in something that sounds oriental, and give it special status. This exclusivicity (?) is has now been translated over to the JUTSU/DO groups; what happens next? Organizational elitism?
I would use your example above, that if a dedicated boxer or wrestler used his experience in the ring in order to "find great inner peace, grow spiritually, evolve as a person", they have done budo.

I understand the point you were trying to make in the differentiation of DO and JUTSU, and agree with your intent. In my post, I guess I meant that aikido is typically identified as budo because it espouses similar philosophical and aesthetic ideals in its exponents, more than the technical and group identification ideals inherent within bujutsu. So I would generally still consider Toda ha Buko ryu as a bujutsu, even though I know its long term adherents are doing budo. I still hate the use of the word "martial arts" though. My fondest wish is that someday someone will come up with a better translation for what we do.

Jim Vance

bcole23
02-04-2002, 04:01 PM
.....I still hate the use of the word "martial arts" though. My fondest wish is that someday someone will come up with a better translation for what we do.

[sound of clapping]
:D

deepsoup
02-04-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by bcole23

[sound of clapping]
:D

Was that the sound of both hands clapping, or just the one?

Sean
x

PeterR
02-04-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by deepsoup
Was that the sound of both hands clapping, or just the one?

[sound of gagging]
:D

bcole23
02-04-2002, 05:27 PM
One hand. It's quite easy to do..

Just clap with your fingers against your palm

Now go into the woods with an axe and infrared goggles at night and make sure you weren't followed. Double check with the goggles to make sure you're alone. Then, chop a tree *almost* down and rig the axe so it will fall and chop down the tree when you're out of hearing range.

Now go get some pistuteschuuga (pistacio) ice cream and see if you can hear the tree fall with your soul.

Reuben
02-04-2002, 08:59 PM
Ok you completely lost me there

:confused:

Well I just feel that sometimes classifying everything although it does helps us define the world(this is not in reply of the other posts but just a thought that came up), doesn't need to be so in all circumstances. Whether aikido is a form of jutsu that is called do or a true do is rather irrelevant.

It's like looking at a piece of modern art and say I see 'minimalism' in it while another sees 'conceptualism'. If you ask the artist on what it means, he will most probably reply, 'you see what you see!'.

So in other words Aikido just is, it is up to you how you define it. How some Shihan defines Aikido is not necessarily the same as how you define Aikido. And that's an important concept here. If you think Aikido as a form of self defence, so be it if that's the aspect you want to concentrate on, if you think it's a way of life, to each his own!

I think this is very clear in the fact that I think O Sensei did not stop his students founding their own schools and if I'm not mistaken encouraged Shioda to do so. It just means that these people have decided that they want to personalize Aikido to their own needs and have reached a sufficient level to do so.

So i guess i have come to a sort of mini enlightenment on the subject. I will practice Aikido according to how I feel about it and not worry about being 'true' to Aikido.
:D

Cheers.

Thalib
02-05-2002, 10:36 AM
I haven't read most of the posts, but I'll just write in my thoughts here...

In the dojo I trained, it is very important to train in applicative techniques. Basic techniques are important to learn the principles. These principles are then applied to conditions that are not familiar during basic techniques.

The basic hitting attacks are probably not the way the people are going to hit you, but the directions are.
Shomen : cutting in line with the center
Yokomen: cutting the center from the sides
Tsuki : cutting through the center
These attacks have covered our sphere.

What should be paid attention to is not the type of the attack but the direction of the attack. For example, we know that shomen is a downward motion, but in real life, an attack could be an upward motion like an uppercut. Tsuki in aikido is always towards the hara (abdomen), but in real life it could be a punch or a knife to the face, chest, even through the back.

Thalib
02-05-2002, 11:00 AM
Shomen and uppercut, even though opposite in motion, they go through the same path. Tsuki, jab, or straight may have different targets or purpose in attack, but all of them cuts through the centerline.

Yokomen and hook, it's like the difference between the shomen and uppercut. A hook goes upward or straight from the sides, but the target is still the same and the path it takes is still from the sides towards the center.

The centerline here is the attacker's target, the point of explosive impact, the strongest portion of the attack. The two things that are usually done is either cut the attack while it's still at its infancy or make the target disappear. This contributes to the ura and omote of the waza.

Of course basic techniques may not apply to other-than-basic-attacks, but if it is understood why the technique was done the way it was done (understanding the principles), the answer will come naturally.

In the dojo I train, the following are principles that are used for other attacks:
Shomen-
uppercut, axe kick (balchagi in TKD), hitting people over the head with a bottle (or with any object)
Yokomen-
hook, roundhouse kick, hitting people over the head with a bottle (or with any object)
Tsuki-
straight, jab, front kick (mae geri)

Andy
02-05-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Thalib
Tsuki in aikido is always towards the hara (abdomen)
Maybe in your own limited version of aikido...

Thalib
02-05-2002, 11:18 AM
The importance of learning these applicative techniques came out of necessity. My sensei have to deal with a bunch of soldiers that are very skeptic and asks a lot of what-ifs.

Of course the techniques can't be shown nor told through these posts. The only way is if we only could train together. But it involves in understanding in the principles of the attack.

All those hitting attacks, no matter how fancy or elaborate they are, have one principle in common, they have a target that they want to hit. Without this target, they will be hitting emptiness and you have nothing to fear.

Other applicative techniques that we learn in the dojo involves being threatened with a knife while standing up or sitting down (in a bus) around the abdominal or the neck area while being restricted (being held by another person, hand hold, or collar hold).

This also arrive from the necessity that public transport in my country isn't safe. And that knife to the throat is usually also substituted with a sickle (like in the sickle and hammer flag). And a sickle, although far apart than a knife, still have a sharp edge that needs to meet it's target.

Other applicative techniques that we learn also involves getting out of choke-holds, wrestling/jujutsu/judo style tackle, arm-bar, and many other grappling attacks.

Thalib
02-05-2002, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Andy

Maybe in your own limited version of aikido...

I was only referring to the basics. Of course it is sometimes specified that it is "hara-tsuki". There are "jodan-tsuki" (upper area), "gedan-tsuki" (lower area), and there are also "shomen-tsuki" and "yokomen-tsuki".

Tsuku, the verb, means to stab. Tsuki is the noun. Of course the attack tsuki could go anywhere, could even go where the sun don't shine.

I hope, Russo-san, you have read the rest of my post (as you see it is part 1 of 3), before you make any assumptions of the version of Aikido I am learning.

akiy
02-05-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Thalib
Tsuku, the verb, means to stab.
Actually, the verb "to stab" in Japanese would more be "sasu." Although the verb "tsuku" can refer to a stabbing motion, it's more directly translated as "to thrust" in my mind.

-- Jun

Thalib
02-05-2002, 12:46 PM
Thank you Akiyama-san on enlightening me on that subject. "Thrust", that is a good explanation.

douzo yoroshiku onegaitashimasu:p

Jem8472
02-06-2002, 01:57 PM
Hello all, good thread you have here. I have decided to post a couple of URL's which are from an Aikido site for the club I train at.

The main site address is
www.aikido-dynamic.co.uk

A couple of videos which have a hook attack in them, they are:
www.aikido-dynamic.co.uk/Video/strikes/strike2.htm

and:
www.aikido-dynamic.co.uk/Video/strikes/strike3.htm

My sensei is into defending against all types off attack, not just the traditional Aikido. If it is to be used now then it has to be adapted to be able to defend against new fighting strikes. (Hope that makes sence)

Jeremy

jk
02-06-2002, 09:26 PM
Gee Thalib, I thought you were just going to say: "Grab a barstool and hit him with it." :)

Actually, Thalib's dojo seems to do much the same thing we did in hapkido, way back when...it was a lot of fun, and quite useful.

One caveat though...there is a difference between a hook thrown (by me, for example) in regular practice, and a hook thrown by an experienced boxer. Likewise, there is a difference between learning how to defend against a knife in the dojo, and receiving a knife attack from a well-trained blade fighter. Try not to let your training against "realistic" attacks in the dojo, useful as it is, lull you into a false sense of confidence. It's a big bad world out there, and s**t does indeed happen...

Regards,

Thalib
02-09-2002, 12:56 PM
Very true...

That's why we're really appreciative of people that have taken previous martial arts in our dojo.

Sometimes I feel bad when we have to practice with kicking techniques and we have people that have the slightest idea on how to do a simple kick...:p

Most people in our dojo are mostly from TKD, then Karate and Pencak Silat, and some Kung Fu.

Edward
02-09-2002, 11:34 PM
In my understanding, you can never use Aikido techniques as taught in the dojo in a real fight. If you think how to defend myself in such or such situation, you will loose beforehand. Concentrating to master the basics is the best way. In a real situation, if you really assimilated the basics (I haven't yet), you will keep an "empty" mind when facing the attacker, not anticipating any specific techniques, and your body will know what to do and how to respond, even if the attacks were not similar to the ones practiced in the dojo.

Cheers,
Edward

Reuben
02-18-2002, 09:04 PM
Wise thoughts Edward. That's what my Sensei said too. Told me not to worry about it but sometimes I just feel kinda impatient.:)

You want something to be effective immediately and stuff like that but i guess if Aikido was the chosen martial art of my choice, I shouldn't be looking for that;).

Btw Jeremy, thanks a lot for the links. Kinda confirmed that what i thought of was right and when I asked my Sensei he did something similiar though with slight variations as in the depth of the entering but i guess that's all just subjective.

And sorry for the late reply...Been pretty under the weather lately...

Does Aikido protect against the flu?;)

shihonage
02-18-2002, 09:23 PM
Steven Seagal's "Path beyond thought" tape shows his no-nonsense defenses against punches and kicks.

He teaches that in class, and its great.

RobTrim
02-19-2002, 09:29 AM
No disrespect to Jem8472 or your dojo, but those clips show what i would more acurately describe as 'Haymakers'. Where as a 'hook' would be a lot tighter in form and involve a much closer Ma-ai.

I've been looking at this hook defence for a whilt too, and I do think the kind of outside blend with the arms as shown in those clips is quite close to something I'd do.

I do think REALLY drilling these kinds of attacks are very benificial to more realistic self defence (if that's what you're after) but could probably be classed as quite advanced techniques. The reason for this is that a good foot and fist man - as we are all aware - will not lunge, or over-commit himself to a single attack but rather use set-up shots, feints and deception to close in for 'more powerful' strikes.

Basic kihon level Aikido usually will start with much more static exercises and Uke's throwing a lot of commitment into strikes to approximate Nage/tori performing a successful blend. There is nothing wrong with this, as - if done correctly - it will show where Uke's body and limbs will end up if they were going full speed and had just been 'Aikido'd'!

This does however show the perceived difficulty us junior grades see when confronted by a good, relentless, skillful 'boxer' (Using that term as a catch-all for people that REALLY know how to use their fists) who does not over-extend or 'sell' their punches.

Regardless of the advanced nature of these defences, I can see the value in practicing defences against 'neater' punches like hooks and uppercuts - even at slow to meduim speed - to get the feel of where te-sabaki (I thinks that's hand movements) and atemi could come into play in order to assist the blending process.

Rob.

Lyle Bogin
02-28-2002, 02:58 PM
I think the biggest danger is not in any single punch but in combinations. The rule of combinations is that you need to be in range. You can miss once and recover...but there is no logic in throwing a series of punches if the person remains beyond your range. So, to eliminate the danger of combinations, it may be best to stay out of range. The striker must now try to reach for you. It is at this point the application if techniques that rely on commitment make more sense.

Also, I belive you can slip irimi techniques like slipping punches. A slip is an attack that travels back up along the line of your opponents attack, which lands due to dominant position, reach, and/or speed. Should it not be possible to apply the concept of slipping to irimi? Are slipping and irimi the same thing?

Has anyone ever tried a roll and hook? It is when you roll (as in bend your body forward and to the side) under your opponents hook and strike him as you come back up and into your centered stance. I believe kokyunage could be performed in a similar manner.

As for an uppercut, well they are very hard to deal with, but they are also a bit hard to throw. They come up the middle, and a nice tenkan should be able to help you gain superior position. In boxing they can be avoided with a lean back but in kickboxing that sets you up for a knockout roundhouse, so you have to learn to roll it off with a tight tenkan like movement so that it misses you and grazes your arms. Catching the crook of someones arm is hard to do, since the upper cut really comes from the legs.

In a sparring match punches tend to be measured and a lot more difficult for an aikido person to get their techniques around. But in a brawl, most folk like to go for the big swing, even if it a good clean swing, because their blood is up.

I agree with those who believe a tight lead hook is the most dangerous punch. I have been knocked down by it and have used it to great effect, particularly after taking my opponents vision/attention with a right/left cross. I look forward to experiment with aiki defenses when my skills improve, but for now a cover and counter will have to do.

Just some thoughts from a kickboxer turned aikidoka.

Reuben
03-03-2002, 06:22 AM
Damn i don't really understand the slipping part.

Regarding the roll and a hook yeah i did something similiar in jujitsu and i also did a roll and a kick. Though usually I just dealt with it by distancing or entering to the side.(don't think u can change direction when u're rolling). The jujitsu sensei scolded me for chickening out but i didn't really care.

A little story to go with this.:)
I was but a white belt and the sensei knew i already held a black belt in aikido. He then wanted to spar with me for some reason and insisted that i used his 'jujitsu' techniques. That was just plain unfair but i think he lost quite a lot of face when i kept on doing 'chicken' techniques like hit and run boxing little jabs and little kicks to his knee. Then i moved in and hooked and got him in the jaw(he claims to teach a street style jujitsu so he incorporates all these punches). And it was bleeding i immediately said sorry and he kinda scolded me but then after that he just played dirty. He was like scolding me and talking to the students about how u shouldn't hit the face blah blah blah and then when i let my guard down he did a slap kick to my knee. The idiot! That's why i quit jujitsu(not that i'm saying jujitsu is bad but just the teacher). If my sensei is so dirty i'm not going to bother learning from him.

Regarding ur kickboxing training i was just wondering, did u find the transition to Aikido difficult? Did u have to unlearn your principles such as no direct blocks and things like that? I know a lot of ppl who find the movements of Aikido totally alien to them and they struggle especially if they do things like taekwando. I found the form of jujitsu and hapkido i learnt a bit difficult to adapt though of course there were similiarities but my problem was reversed(aikido to another martial art). My free sparring problem always remained the same, I always jabbed and probed and then kinda avoided their attacks until they got annoyed since i was unable to use any Aikido techniques. My sister learnt shotokan karate and she too found it strange to blend into the attack when she started Aikido.

I still remember my jujitsu sensei screaming, 'come and attack me!' and i was like 'why don't u attack me?". unpleasant experience.

Just wanted to know ur thoughts on this.

Reuben
03-03-2002, 06:27 AM
Thalib:
Oh and where would a slap kick go under ur classification?

It seems logical to enter outside.

Bruce Baker
03-03-2002, 08:55 AM
I have read many of the responses to this topic, and it comes down to deflect, interrupt, or neutralize.

Deflect involves learning to move your hands faster than the person throwing the punch. One method is the whip. You learn to throw your hand out like a whip, and pull it back even quicker, and quicker. Speed training, this is sometimes found in stories of those older sensei's who knew Bruce Lee and tell stories to our third generation of MA.

Interrupt. You can't move as fast as the hook, so you use the scared reflex to move your body, also known as training to get the hell out of the way! If your training in Aikido teaches you anything, it is to react when violent motion comes your way. The timing of reaction in your training should be aimed at automatic responses that do not involve thought. Being of the old school, I usually take the first punch, which activates the fear factor, switching into anger, then to please God don't let me kill this stupid bastard. At that point, even the fastest punches slow to visible angle and direction. Adrenelin is an amazing equalizer!

Neutralize. That could be as easy as not fighting, getting in gear with the fear/flight instinct, or as others have expressed ... go inside, go outside, or hitting the knee/ inner leg to give your suri ashi training chance to work. Did you ever try to punch someone under your waist level? Kicking usually comes to mind, but if hit inside of the inner thigh, or correct angle to the knee, you find you have entered into Don Draeger's basic defense technique, one of Budo's classic writers.

Your attitude of passiveness will almost always keep you out of these situations, but when it happens ... please don't do a spinning heel kick and almost kill the guy like one of my highschool students who was blindsided by a hook from the rear?

Lastly, raise the bokken and face the foe. My first teachers son in law was training to be a Navy Seal. We were trying to neutralize a knife attack with blade out against the forearm being waved in an infinity/figure eight. The only way to directly protect/ interrupt was to raise the bokken, or lower the bokken. Hitting the top of the arm tightens the hand, hitting the bottom opens the hand, dropping the knife. This method of kife attack also resembles a hook punch, so raising the Bokken is preferred, which also numbs the forearm.

There a numerous speed exercises, sticky hands to train hand and eye coordination, but sooner or later ... you will take a punch. How you respond is the important thing ... without anger, or violence in your mind.

Now ... take all the advice, recommendations ... and see if you can apply it to your Aikido training? That is what you were looking for? Wasn't it?

Talk to your teacher about this, see if he/she has other ways to help your training.

Thalib
03-03-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Reuben
Thalib:
Oh and where would a slap kick go under ur classification?

It seems logical to enter outside.

Your meaning of a slap kick is the one that you hit the side of the opponent on the side right. The movement is from the outside towards the inside. If I get the meaning correctly, then it is similar to yokomen uchi (side attack).

- yokomen -
Attack comes from the outside towards the center. Naturally will hit the side of the target, if face to face with the target; could hit the front if passing through the side of the target.

- shomen -
Attacking the center directly by downward/upward movement. Naturally will hit the top/underside of the target.

- tsuki -
Thrusting attack. Attacking the target by going forward/backward motion. Naturally will hit the target inline with the attack.

Lyle Bogin
03-05-2002, 09:45 AM
"Regarding ur kickboxing training i was just wondering, did u find the transition to Aikido difficult?"

The hardest part was not the physical techniques. It was realizing the meaning of practice and learning to extend and relax.

I think that problems transitioning from one style to another are not exeactly what they seem to be. The real problem, IMO, comes from thinking that because you hade some expertise in one style, you should automatically have it in another. You are really just another beginner. I don't think any of the beginners are thinking something like "boy it's really hard to adapt my raquetball game to these aikido techniques". It's new, it's dissimilar, so it's hard.

"Did u have to unlearn your principles such as no direct blocks and things like that?"

No. You never need to unlearn something. Only to have the mind of a beginner when approaching new things. If you "unlearn", then how can you apply the wonderful things you already know to make you new skills that much better?

Thalib
03-05-2002, 05:04 PM
That's a very good term, "mind of a beginner". Always willing learning, never arrogant and always think to be humble.

It is true, because when you think you know everything, that's when you start not knowing anything anymore, stop learning. My sensei always give us this lecture. It is easier said then done, because by my standards, I am pretty arrogant.

But what I like is that I am always reminded of this one way or another. When my head isso high up that it is on cloud number nine, there is always an incident that brings me back down to earth.

Brian H
03-06-2002, 09:24 AM
pepper spray

Lyle Bogin
03-06-2002, 11:00 AM
Pepper spray work well, unless ofcourse the wind blows the wrong way.

Jim ashby
03-07-2002, 04:58 AM
Pepper spray is a good idea. Unfortunately illegal in the UK.
Ahh well.
Have fun.

Abasan
03-07-2002, 06:31 AM
Nothing is more scary then attempting to spray that pepper spray... only to find it has lost all of its pressure... piffle... puff puff.

Fire extinguishers comes to mind too...

I'm not recommending spitting your way out of a fire... but at least with some solid techniques in your head, you might get out of the first situation, alive.

Ghost Fox
03-07-2002, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Jim ashby
Pepper spray is a good idea. Unfortunately illegal in the UK.
Ahh well.
Have fun.

Its only illegal if you get caught.evileyes

jk
03-07-2002, 09:22 AM
Well, if you can't/won't use pepper spray, why not splurge on a xenon bulb, lithium-batteried flashlight (like them SureFires)?

120 lumens in the eyes is not very pleasant...and it might work a lot better if you stun gun them in the privates at the same time... :D

Oh, wait...that wasn't very aiki...

Thalib
03-07-2002, 07:23 PM
That wouldn't be very Aiki...

But, at least you'll walk out in one piece...

Reuben
04-24-2009, 03:31 AM
Anyway several years have passed since I started this thread and noticed that it's the first hit when you google Aikido against hooks. I also notice the large amount of views this thread has seen which does indicate that this is perhaps a very common problem.

I am still actively practicing Aikido (so have some 15 years of Aikido now) and have recently taken up other martial arts (CMD and BJJ).

The more I delve into the matter here, the more I find it hard to find an appropriate counter to a proper hook or even just boxing in general. I have had the opportunity to train with proper boxers and I note several things


You are seldom attacked with a hook right from the bat unless the guy is crappy/drunk. It is usually a follow up from a combo such as a jab
A proper hook as I understand it is tight and short range. It's a close-range punch. There is no way to 'enter' into the arc of the hook if it's done properly.
Ducking under is an option but it is not easy to do this with an irimi


I have trained in several Aikido dojos, many of them reputable and when thrown a hook, I find that unless they are ready for it and I'm not going full out with my hook (which isn't all that great to being with), they are unable to capitalize on it and usually end up just blocking it (which is fair enough I suppose).

Even with quick jabs and such, because of the lack of commitment from the attacker, traditional Aikido techniques do not seem to be effective unless the attack is out to destroy you in one shot.

The best I could manage is to continuously slap away the jabs and try to maintain ma-ai by circling around. There are times where I will manage to get a quick grip on one of the attacking hooks but in his pull back I will lose it. I constantly felt on edge as the moment I lost my concentration, I risked being knocked out. It was a horrible feeling despite my attempts to remain calm. It just simply takes a lot more concentration to simply just 'react' to his attacks.

There were some instructors that after my hook, they will try to 'take me down' and sure that may work against a boxer, but similarly
a) a proper sprawl is easy to do against this and it's risky
b) A takedown isn't one of the usual techniques taught in Aikido (yes yes I know a hook isn't either but it's a very common attack in rl)

Now I'm no O-Sensei or anything but afaik, even in other boxing based disciplines, you are not expected to dodge these things on a consistent basis, what more move in and redirect the hand? Are we relegated to just slapping these jabs away and be locked in a stalemate? I did ponder briefly if this was indeed Aikido since there is the opportunity for you to avoid conflict if he's not committing and stalemating does seem to be a plausible outcome.

I really am now at a crossroads in Aikido where I am tired of hearing 'do enough traditional techniques and you'll get the real techniques without thinking'. This just strikes off as 'I don't know what to do, just train'. I have been doing this for a good number of years now and have tested this against other experienced Aikidoka and have not found an acceptable solution.

I have youtubed it and tested those applications and only find them useful in incorrect hooks. Perhaps my skill level isn't enough so i really really humbly seek this forum's feedback on this matter. I also note that the Aikido greats all went through that 'tough patch' like Gozo Shioda who actively sought out fights and Morihei who practiced in many different martial arts and also 'duelled'. It seems that without this trial of fire, your average Aikidoka is not equipped with the necessary fight perception (even in randoori), to perform Aikido at a reasonably practical level which was one of the reasons why I started taking other martial arts to see how these 'fight' perceptions are translated to Aikido effectiveness.

It does help somewhat in that I can perceive attacks a lot faster and be much more calm when being attack after having sparred in other martial arts in more realistic environments which imo does translate to better Aikido. However, there is still no answer to a boxer who may be really raring to hurt you, but isn't going to open up with just one big punch, but instead a barrage followed by a finisher.

I know Aikido is one of those arts that require many more years of experience compared to others, but it sucks that someone can go into six months of boxing or something similar and have more ready skills than someone with more than a decade of experience.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-24-2009, 04:25 AM
Hi,

Maybe this helps, no magic pills but the following has worked for me :

Yes, the hook usually comes after the distance has been closed with a combo, i.e. jab-cross then hook. What I've found is: go for the opponent as he throws the jab, don't let him throw the cross, counter the jab and irimi asap, close distance and grapple him. You should be the one who is controlling the maai and the deai, not the boxer.

If the boxer is throwing uncommited strikes, that makes you the one who has to be commited, i.e. the boxer is throwing half assed jabs and feinting... give him the biggest shomen ate/uchi, yokomenuchi, right cross/whatever you can deliver and continue putting pressure on him. Enter and cut, enter and cut, enter and cut... pressure, pressure, pressure rinse and repeat. Make him play your game, don't play his game.

Aikido is alot % atemi, you need "heavy" hands that make him afraid of exchanging strikes with you. Take away from him his will to fight.

There's a lot more of things that can be done against boxing techniques and tactics, but have in mind this is not an easy task. Lots of blood, sweet and tears before you can use aikido to defend yourself from a competent boxer who wants to hurt you.

Ed. A takedown is Aikido too :)

Reuben
04-24-2009, 04:40 AM
Hi,

Maybe this helps, no magic pills but the following has worked for me :

Yes, the hook usually comes after the distance has been closed with a combo, i.e. jab-cross then hook. What I've found is: go for the opponent as he throws the jab, don't let him throw the cross, counter the jab and irimi asap, close distance and grapple him. You should be the one who is controlling the maai and the deai, not the boxer.

If the boxer is throwing uncommited strikes, that makes you the one who has to be commited, i.e. the boxer is throwing half assed jabs and feinting... give him the biggest shomen ate/uchi, yokomenuchi, right cross/whatever you can deliver and continue putting pressure on him. Enter and cut, enter and cut, enter and cut... pressure, pressure, pressure rinse and repeat. Make him play your game, don't play his game.

Aikido is alot % atemi, you need "heavy" hands that make him afraid of exchanging strikes with you. Take away from him his will to fight.

There's a lot more of things that can be done against boxing techniques and tactics, but have in mind this is not an easy task. Lots of blood, sweet and tears before you can use aikido to defend yourself from a competent boxer who wants to hurt you.

Ed. A takedown is Aikido too :)

Your strategy does sound interesting. If I understand it correctly, its to use atemi to open him up?

I actually tried doing strikes to the boxer but as they had a tight guard and the traditional strikes actually leave you open to a big sock in the body or face...for e.g. shomen uchi or yokomen uchi. I feel that this would be exactly the response he is waiting for.

Jabs are half assed in nature but that by no means that they're slow or without a lot of pain behind them :( They're used to keep distance and to control the space in front of them so that you cannot enter easily as well.

What technique would you use to move in from the jab? A jab, cross combo is very quick and in sparring when he throws it, it's usually *tap tap* on the gloves rather than any usable interval between them. If there's any intervals, it's usually after he finishes a combo and backs off slightly. I note that in boxing there's the opportunity for using the minute intervals between his combos to 'counter punch', perhaps there's an atemi I could throw in to break his concentration and follow up with an Aikido technique? Takes balls of steels though and risks getting socked in the face as well esp when we don't train for it in normal practice.

You have a good point about him playing your game, and it seems to involve putting similar pressure on him as well. How to do this still rather eludes me.

Thanks for your comments it does seem we're getting somewhere.

Also a takedown seems to be a very important tool but it's also something we don't really train in Aikido that much plus we do risk getting caught into a ground-fighting situation which not all of us are prepared for unless we cross-train. We can probably even divorce Aikido completely from this equation if we are to rely on takedowns to these kinds of attacks.

Flintstone
04-24-2009, 04:49 AM
This is from an encounter between Tadashi Abe and Minoru Mochizuki:

Tadashi Abe -- "Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?"

[...]

Minoru Mochizuki -- "Attack me as you like!"

Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange You have openings everywhere" Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

Reuben
04-24-2009, 04:56 AM
This is from an encounter between Tadashi Abe and Minoru Mochizuki:

Tadashi Abe -- "Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?"

[...]

Minoru Mochizuki -- "Attack me as you like!"

Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange… You have openings everywhere…" Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

Who is kicking who? Lol if I get it correctly, this means, play dirty?

I actually had an experience of this when trying out jujitsu. The teacher asked me to spar with him and being from an aikido background I knew nothing about striking or sparring but what I knew was that I couldn't do committal attacks if I didn't want to get into trouble.

So I went around, doing little itty bitty knee kicks and quick jab combos which he couldn't do much about. He lost patience at his new student (me), and came straight at me, I instinctively stuck my hand out and he kinda...ran into my punch into his chin (i'm taller than him by a bit so a my shoulder level punch goes right to his face).

His mouth bled a bit and I apologized profusely....and he was berating me for 'punching him in the face' and he pretended to talk to the spectator students around him when he sneaked a nasty knee strike to my knee (when I had already let my guard down as I thought it was over).

Not something I would call 'respectful'. Kinda equivalent to offering the guy a beer and then smashing it on his head....

Needless to say, I didn't return to his class after that experience but let's stick on topic here :D

Flintstone
04-24-2009, 05:04 AM
I don't believe Mochizuki played dirty here. That's just awase. Good Aikido principles to me ;)!!

Reuben
04-24-2009, 05:21 AM
I don't believe Mochizuki played dirty here. That's just awase. Good Aikido principles to me ;)!!

true but even from the description of the encounter the attack does seem to be of the one box sure kill type which aikido is well placed to defend against. Not the quick combos I am having problems with.

Flintstone
04-24-2009, 05:38 AM
true but even from the description of the encounter the attack does seem to be of the one box sure kill type which aikido is well placed to defend against. Not the quick combos I am having problems with.
Yep. Probably you're right here.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-24-2009, 05:43 AM
Your strategy does sound interesting. If I understand it correctly, its to use atemi to open him up?
From opeing him up to grappling techniques to putting him to sleep and everything in the middle. It depends.

I actually tried doing strikes to the boxer but as they had a tight guard and the traditional strikes actually leave you open to a big sock in the body or face...for e.g. shomen uchi or yokomen uchi. I feel that this would be exactly the response he is waiting for.

You need to set up your strikes. A big, telegraphed shomen from 3 m away is not going to work, but after a pair of solid jabs from you that make him cover and shield... that's another thing.

Jabs are half assed in nature but that by no means that they're slow or without a lot of pain behind them :(
Get used to the pain.... this is a martial art. What did you expected?

They're used to keep distance and to control the space in front of them so that you cannot enter easily as well.

You have to get used to keep distance and control the space in front of you too. The one who becames best at this aspect of the game is the one who is controlling the encounter.

What technique would you use to move in from the jab?
Depends what is available at the moment.


A jab, cross combo is very quick and in sparring when he throws it, it's usually *tap tap* on the gloves rather than any usable interval between them. If there's any intervals, it's usually after he finishes a combo and backs off slightly. I note that in boxing there's the opportunity for using the minute intervals between his combos to 'counter punch', perhaps there's an atemi

No, the window of opportunity for the atemi is between the jab and the cross, like here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qezgb_F6060)

I could throw in to break his concentration and follow up with an Aikido technique? Takes balls of steel though and risks getting socked in the face as well esp when we don't train for it in normal practice.
It seems you are getting the idea. :)

You have a good point about him playing your game, and it seems to involve putting similar pressure on him as well. How to do this still rather eludes me.
With aiki.

Thanks for your comments it does seem we're getting somewhere.
Only two cents from a kickboxing & TKD mediocrity.

Also a takedown seems to be a very important tool but it's also something we don't really train in Aikido that much plus we do risk getting caught into a ground-fighting situation which not all of us are prepared for unless we cross-train. We can probably even divorce Aikido completely from this equation if we are to rely on takedowns to these kinds of attacks.

Aikido is infinite, don't get trapped in standing vs ground false dichotomy. It's about the principles.

Reuben
04-24-2009, 05:51 AM
It just seems rather unfortunate that these things are not generally covered in most syllabuses even all the way to black belt. Many people learn Aikido for self defense and I think its only right for more emphasis to be placed in such situations. Not all of us are Ueshibas who can create and adapt their own martial art, we need certain fundamentals to build from which are lacking in normal aikido syllabuses. The learning process does not need to be so lengthy imo if there was a way to incorporate this all in into regular training

gdandscompserv
04-24-2009, 12:03 PM
i think it's only possible to defeat the hook at a higher level of consciousness. You pretty much have to be able to "read it" before it comes. If you can read it coming, then you can enter inside or outside. It's very difficult to pull off. Blocking is more reliable.

David Yap
04-25-2009, 12:18 AM
Anyway several years have passed since I started this thread and noticed that it's the first hit when you google Aikido against hooks. I also notice the large amount of views this thread has seen which does indicate that this is perhaps a very common problem.

I am still actively practicing Aikido (so have some 15 years of Aikido now) and have recently taken up other martial arts (CMD and BJJ).

The more I delve into the matter here, the more I find it hard to find an appropriate counter to a proper hook or even just boxing in general. I have had the opportunity to train with proper boxers and I note several things


You are seldom attacked with a hook right from the bat unless the guy is crappy/drunk. It is usually a follow up from a combo such as a jab
A proper hook as I understand it is tight and short range. It's a close-range punch. There is no way to 'enter' into the arc of the hook if it's done properly.
Ducking under is an option but it is not easy to do this with an irimi


I have trained in several Aikido dojos, many of them reputable and when thrown a hook, I find that unless they are ready for it and I'm not going full out with my hook (which isn't all that great to being with), they are unable to capitalize on it and usually end up just blocking it (which is fair enough I suppose).

Even with quick jabs and such, because of the lack of commitment from the attacker, traditional Aikido techniques do not seem to be effective unless the attack is out to destroy you in one shot.

The best I could manage is to continuously slap away the jabs and try to maintain ma-ai by circling around. There are times where I will manage to get a quick grip on one of the attacking hooks but in his pull back I will lose it. I constantly felt on edge as the moment I lost my concentration, I risked being knocked out. It was a horrible feeling despite my attempts to remain calm. It just simply takes a lot more concentration to simply just 'react' to his attacks.

There were some instructors that after my hook, they will try to 'take me down' and sure that may work against a boxer, but similarly
a) a proper sprawl is easy to do against this and it's risky
b) A takedown isn't one of the usual techniques taught in Aikido (yes yes I know a hook isn't either but it's a very common attack in rl)

Now I'm no O-Sensei or anything but afaik, even in other boxing based disciplines, you are not expected to dodge these things on a consistent basis, what more move in and redirect the hand? Are we relegated to just slapping these jabs away and be locked in a stalemate? I did ponder briefly if this was indeed Aikido since there is the opportunity for you to avoid conflict if he's not committing and stalemating does seem to be a plausible outcome.

I really am now at a crossroads in Aikido where I am tired of hearing 'do enough traditional techniques and you'll get the real techniques without thinking'. This just strikes off as 'I don't know what to do, just train'. I have been doing this for a good number of years now and have tested this against other experienced Aikidoka and have not found an acceptable solution.

I have youtubed it and tested those applications and only find them useful in incorrect hooks. Perhaps my skill level isn't enough so i really really humbly seek this forum's feedback on this matter. I also note that the Aikido greats all went through that 'tough patch' like Gozo Shioda who actively sought out fights and Morihei who practiced in many different martial arts and also 'duelled'. It seems that without this trial of fire, your average Aikidoka is not equipped with the necessary fight perception (even in randoori), to perform Aikido at a reasonably practical level which was one of the reasons why I started taking other martial arts to see how these 'fight' perceptions are translated to Aikido effectiveness.

It does help somewhat in that I can perceive attacks a lot faster and be much more calm when being attack after having sparred in other martial arts in more realistic environments which imo does translate to better Aikido. However, there is still no answer to a boxer who may be really raring to hurt you, but isn't going to open up with just one big punch, but instead a barrage followed by a finisher.

I know Aikido is one of those arts that require many more years of experience compared to others, but it sucks that someone can go into six months of boxing or something similar and have more ready skills than someone with more than a decade of experience.

Hi Reuban,

CMD as in Crazy Monkey Defense taught at KDT by Vince Choo sensei? If so, ask Vince sensei to teach you the Vince Morris' Kissaki-kai techniques. IMO, that will take you further up the path of aikido.

You are trying to compare aikido techniques with other MA using the hook punch as an example. Spiritually, the answers are already in your post.

A couple of weeks ago, we have a 6th dan karate visitor at our dojo. He showed and taught us the fluid and soft side of karate - take-downs, grapplings, locks, etc. - all innate movements from the karate kata. A couple of enthusiastic blackbelts who have had only sport karate experience requested for video shoot so that they could learn all these stuff in his absence; his response to them was "go learn aikido" and compare the movements with the karate kata. Empty the cup, sometime a punch is more than a punch, a block is more than a block and a kick is....

Aikido for self-defense :rolleyes: I have your share of experience with some armed-chair instructors here.

Happy training

David Y

Michael Douglas
04-25-2009, 04:39 AM
This is from an encounter between Tadashi Abe and Minoru Mochizuki:

Tadashi Abe -- "Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?"

[...]

Minoru Mochizuki -- "Attack me as you like!"

Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange… You have openings everywhere…" Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

So Abe, who was amazed Michozuki would allow him to hit him anywhere ... kicked Michozuki as he barged forward ?
Is that right?
The moral of THIS story : hit the aikidoka when he advances with poor guard?

Flintstone
04-25-2009, 06:11 AM
So Abe, who was amazed Michozuki would allow him to hit him anywhere ... kicked Michozuki as he barged forward ?
Is that right?
The moral of THIS story : hit the aikidoka when he advances with poor guard?
Actually it was Mochizuki Sensei who kicked Abe Sensei when the last tryed to punch the former. Mochizuki just "awased" the punch and kicked Abe. Isn't it what Aikido is about? Awase?

Peter Chenier
05-11-2009, 01:49 AM
Boooooo...too much thought into this topic. Hooks are easy to defend against. 99% of the time the guy throwing them is no boxer or karateka. Which means he is way off balance. Which means it's a one punch deal. Raise your lead hand in a shomen like move half way up like your going to ask a question in a classroom...
when you stop the hook...well that's another topic all together.

Cheers all

Ps I've stopped this attack in real life on more than one occasion..It's easy

Pss A trained fighter is a different deal altogether..but then again most trained fighters are not in the business of attacking folks in the street

Cheers

Peter

dps
05-11-2009, 07:28 AM
Keep your mai, gokyu, atemi to the face, irimi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-V4dXZMwwE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideosearch%3Fhl%3Den%26ie%3DUTF-8%26q%3Daikido%2520gokkyo%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwv%26um%3D1&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW_oQEiXgWQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu4qOrThhE

David

ramenboy
05-11-2009, 01:31 PM
you mean like this?
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r179/ramenboy_01/hook.jpg

Josh Astridge
06-21-2009, 04:32 PM
Hey there, i just thought I'd put my opinion in there.

If someone is really angry at you and wants you dead or concussed or whatever, remember that (well, at least in my cases) the person has a lot of adrenaline pulsing through them.

Adrenaline seems to make people get tunnel vision of some degree..
i remember when someone tried beating me up that he went for a straight jab from standard 'boxer' stance and as soon as i moved out of the way and wasn't directly in front of him he couldn't see me.

at which point i nailed him in the face.

maybe if you're fast then you could just do irimi steps and move out of the way and out of his then-limited vision?

(hoping he hasn't conditioned himself not to get too angry)

Domo arigatoo.

Michael Douglas
06-22-2009, 06:11 AM
... and as soon as i moved out of the way and wasn't directly in front of him he couldn't see me.
As funny as this sounds I have to agree it can happen!
The angrier your enemy the more tunnelly his vision *might* be,
but you can only take advantage of it momentarily. Very good point though Josh and mostly ignored in discussion :) .

Dunken Francis
06-22-2009, 03:41 PM
Not trying to state the obvious here, but if keeping a safe mai-ai doesn't work/isn't feasible, try kicking. Legs tend to be longer than arms. I know most Aikidoka don't 'study' kicking, but like it or not it's an important part of self defense, so shouldn't be ignored.

philippe willaume
06-23-2009, 09:32 AM
I really think Demetrio has the jest of it.

After the whole point of conservatively fighting from a guard/organised position, is not to expose yourself to counters, being able to defend easily and having a safe base to launch attack from.
There is really no point of getting to all that trouble if it is too launch a hay-maker from there and that is true fro a jab or cross or a take down attempt.

You kick or punch, if possible getting closes to follow with an elbow knee or grappling.
As Duken said a diagonal kick, round house kick, teph, chass bas are good options, just as modern boxing or old Mendoza block wedge and counter or a MMA/BJJ DL or SL take down (or tenchi at the leg or aikiotchi)
But I think it is not that important compared to understanding that whatever atemi you do you need to move to the right place, and that to before you gain that place or you make them extend you will have to trade blows

Here is a few boxing video that explain to deal with different type of boxer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4Uo9kMpRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhypYu6sjg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhZVo9L-E1M
or usual boxing defence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0nz9BBFvLk

Or more for MMA settings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLy-9JwYOgE

basically this is how they set up their how game so we can use that to set up our aiki game when thing have not started to well for us and our game plan

seank
06-24-2009, 12:48 AM
Something to ponder... the easiest way to throw a trained boxer of their game is to change your stance. There is nothing quite like the expression on a boxer's face when they've been tagging someone in an orthodox stance to have it turned southpaw on them.

It won't work on everyone but its enough in many cases to trip them up slightly. It forces an orthodox boxer to work to the outside and vice versa.

I've been booted out of a ring or two against a boxer by using elbows and knees in answer to the "rip". Its not considered good form, but there are few people that will take several elbow strikes full on to the forearm without thinking twice about the next punch.

I do remember some advice given to me whilst training in kyokushin, and that was to never engage a boxer in a straight up punching match.

I would agree on a few of the posts suggesting that you need to control the distance and the timing. Boxing is very much about rhythm, timing, distance and power (should be familiar to every martial artist out there) - if you can disrupt or control one or more of these you have at least one in on your opponent.

philippe willaume
06-24-2009, 03:15 AM
Something to ponder... the easiest way to throw a trained boxer of their game is to change your stance. There is nothing quite like the expression on a boxer's face when they've been tagging someone in an orthodox stance to have it turned southpaw on them.

It won't work on everyone but its enough in many cases to trip them up slightly. It forces an orthodox boxer to work to the outside and vice versa.

I've been booted out of a ring or two against a boxer by using elbows and knees in answer to the "rip". Its not considered good form, but there are few people that will take several elbow strikes full on to the forearm without thinking twice about the next punch.

I do remember some advice given to me whilst training in kyokushin, and that was to never engage a boxer in a straight up punching match.

I would agree on a few of the posts suggesting that you need to control the distance and the timing. Boxing is very much about rhythm, timing, distance and power (should be familiar to every martial artist out there) - if you can disrupt or control one or more of these you have at least one in on your opponent.

Yes it is matter of using what they do to gain advantage on each other to develop our game instead of playing what they are good at.
Now it could be argued that sokumen irimi nage is nothing more that a particular way of finishing a cross, elbow or hook

That being said you may very well do aikido against a defensive boxer and to an onlooker it will look more like old English pugilism than aikido or boxing, at least for a while.

phil

ChrisHein
06-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Now, it's funny to me that people even try to solve boxing problems with Aikido technique. But I remember having these questions myself, and being really frustrated.

Aikido isn't a boxing style. If you want to box a boxer, you must learn to box. Aikido has 3 good answers to facing a boxer: shomen, yokomen and tsuki. Done with a weapon you'll be way ahead of most boxers by using just these three simple strikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4mIHzZCv-g

If you don't have a weapon, and are going to face a boxer, what's wrong with learning to box? Even for those who believe boxing can be defeated by empty hand aikido, they will tell you it's going to take years.

3 months in a decent boxing gym and you'll learn to outbox 80% of the people you'll encounter in the "streets".

Boxing is a good system for: well, boxing, and Aikido isn't. As A student of Aikido you should pander to the systems strengths. Dealing with boxing strikes, unarmed, isn't one of them.

DonMagee
06-25-2009, 12:02 AM
Now, it's funny to me that people even try to solve boxing problems with Aikido technique. But I remember having these questions myself, and being really frustrated.

Aikido isn't a boxing style. If you want to box a boxer, you must learn to box. Aikido has 3 good answers to facing a boxer: shomen, yokomen and tsuki. Done with a weapon you'll be way ahead of most boxers by using just these three simple strikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4mIHzZCv-g

If you don't have a weapon, and are going to face a boxer, what's wrong with learning to box? Even for those who believe boxing can be defeated by empty hand aikido, they will tell you it's going to take years.

3 months in a decent boxing gym and you'll learn to outbox 80% of the people you'll encounter in the "streets".

Boxing is a good system for: well, boxing, and Aikido isn't. As A student of Aikido you should pander to the systems strengths. Dealing with boxing strikes, unarmed, isn't one of them.

I'm not sure I need aikido to teach me how to beat a boxer with a baseball bat. It's kinda obvious.

wideawakedreamer
06-25-2009, 12:51 AM
I agree with Don. :D

I'd like to say I'd use either my bokken or arnis stick, but I don't know if I'd have the heart to actually whack someone on the head with them. I think I'd just feel sorry and say, "how about you and I just have beer together? It would hurt a lot less (unless you drink too much)."

ChrisHein
06-25-2009, 01:04 AM
Everyone thinks the weapon does all the work. That is until they need to use the weapon and it pops out of their hand, they find themselves at an ineffective range or they get it taken away from them...

It goes without saying that your last option should be fighting. This is whether you plan to do that fighting with or without a weapon.

philippe willaume
06-25-2009, 04:05 AM
Hello
I think part of Chris point is about knowing how to use the bat so that can expert it to work reliably and consistently.
Legal usage of weapon varies from place to place so according to where you are in the world you can get away with using weapons and I feared for my life.
I would not be surprised if in Texas, your SD case would not be harmed if your aggressor died of lead poisoning.

Where I think I may not be in agreement with chris, is that I think we have all we need in aikido. The thing we miss is practise and may be an idea or where to go.

If you do have atemi in your aikido, they should really be worth your while so the need to be delivered in range and in balance, basically as if you meant to strike. when we cut with the bokken or with the Jo we do not do it over extended and half-heartedly, why should we not do the same with our head, punch, kick, elbows and knees?

And that a 屠ab or 田ross蚤 swing a hook, if they are done with a full gather are exactly the same a shomen yokumen or study with a pass, provided that your shomen and yokomen are not too pants. (though we could that if the gather is a normal step, it is more a direct front hand or rear hand that a jab or a cross)
The problem is really when the puncher is conservative and gathers only by small steps, it does not work so well any more.

The think is that we do not have to find a technique straight away and if we stay at a moderm boxing range we are going to get our arse kicked in biblical proportions.
However we can use our atemi to cover our movements and to get in and out of distance and get stuck in fro a throw or a pin when we have an opening, really the same ideas of the EBKB of old.

What I am really trying to get at is that 3rd form (kata dori) ikkio from solid/static; if our initial step is irimi,we are going at exactly the same place as if we had been slipping a punch on the outside.
And the atemi is the same as a direct rear end.
The only difference is the patting down of the punch in the back end in the slip.

phil

ChrisHein
06-25-2009, 11:15 AM
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by "we have all we need in Aikido".

This is something I say all the time. Aikido is a great system of martial arts, and doesn't lack anything in it's range. In the way that I understand Aikido, I think it is a remarkably complete system.

However it doesn't teach all ranges and types of fighting. But no system does. In fact (and I ponder this one often) if you put all ranges and aspects of fighting into one system, it would be impractically large.

Boxing is a very specific skill set. It is different then simply striking. Shotokan Karate is a striking system, however it is not a boxing system either. Boxing involves two people trading blows in a specific way. Learning to box is a unique skill, and Aikido doesn't teach this anymore then Aikido teaches ground fighting as done in submission wrestling.

If we are talking about fighting, specifically with the intent to do harm, Aikido is complete, and has answers to problems faced in boxing.

However what few are allowing for, is their desire to prove that Aikido is better at boxing then boxing. There is this desire to "Aikido" the boxer. A desire to beat the boxer at his own game. This is not possible. Boxers are good at their game, and it's a game that Aikido teaches nothing about.

DonMagee
06-25-2009, 01:26 PM
Everyone thinks the weapon does all the work. That is until they need to use the weapon and it pops out of their hand, they find themselves at an ineffective range or they get it taken away from them...

It goes without saying that your last option should be fighting. This is whether you plan to do that fighting with or without a weapon.

My point was two fold.

1) It is obvious to anyone that having a weapon is a huge advantage. And even allows untrained children to beat up adults. For example, in grade school I beat up a high school student with a hockey stick. He was bullying me and I got so upset I hit him with it. He never bullied me again.

2) Claiming a weapon allows you to defeat any attacker will require you to actually take that weapon with you everywhere. I'm not prepared (nor legally able) to carry a sword everywhere. I'm not inclined to carry a large stick everywhere. It's like I tell guys who want to carry guns. Make sure you pick one you can carry. A 22 in your pocket is more useful then a 45 in your closet.

I'm going to simply state that if you are unarmed and you give me a baseball bat and say lets fight, I'm going to win. I don't need any kind of weapons training to win. I'm just going to hit you repeatedly with it. The advantage being that I have no problems hurting someone who wants to hurt me. I see demo's all the time with guys disarming armed opponents, but those people are rarely actually trying to hurt someone.

Yes, having training is only going to make you better at using a weapon. So yes, it would be a good idea to train with the weapon you carry ever single day. However, consider why you train everything else.

Far to often it seems the answer to defeating any kind of sport fighter is simply "grab my katana", or "well I'd use my jo". If the unarmed portion is so useless, what is the premise of training it at all? You don't see judo guys looking at the striking in their art seriously or attempting to practice it. Nor do they do that with their weapon work (Hey it's all in the kata's right?)

This is the basic premise of MMA training. My bjj system has a horrible system of striking, so I'll go find a striking coach who can teach me Mauy Thai. Obviously that won't me he's the best striker and grappler in the world, that comes down to the person, but he did pick styles that were top notice in teaching those skills. Is aikido top notch in teaching unarmed defenses against strikes, and if not, then why practice those defenses at all?

ChrisHein
06-25-2009, 06:29 PM
Jean Jacques Machado went to a Dog Brothers fight (full contact stick fighting) threw his weapon away at the beginning of the fight, double legged his opponent, who was armed with a stick. Then submitted him.

It's no guarantee that having a weapon means you'll beat someone. There are lots of tough guys who just might take that weapon away from you as soon as to look at you.

The premise of MMA is a good one. And like I said, if you want to beat a boxer at boxing, learn to box.

Aikido is not useless unarmed. However it's not as sophisticated as other arts specializing in unarmed fighting. This is where I start to get tangential, I don't believe the techniques of Aikido were ever designed to deal with sophisticated unarmed situations. However I do believe they were designed too, and work very well in armed situations. The "unarmed" techniques in Aikido are much more akin to traditional Koryu style techniques which work around weapons problems.

As far as carrying a weapon goes, if one wants they can always be armed. Look around you there are hundreds of weapons right this second. Pick something up, a broom, a fire extinguisher, a kitchen knife, a bottle, there are almost always weapons, or things that can be used as weapons around you.

I wouldn't recommend Aikido for someone interested in unarmed strikes or unarmed defenses against them. Like I said take boxing for 3 months!

DH
06-26-2009, 11:44 AM
Jean Jacques Machado went to a Dog Brothers fight (full contact stick fighting) threw his weapon away at the beginning of the fight, double legged his opponent, who was armed with a stick. Then submitted him.
That’s great and probably no surprise too many I know. But a stick is not a knife. Taking a hit is different from being stabbed and cut.

It's no guarantee that having a weapon means you'll beat someone. There are lots of tough guys who just might take that weapon away from you as soon as to look at you.
True, but toughness is a quality gained from experience in training in mixed venues against full resistance and from having experienced life threatening situations. Neither of which is something really learned well in the vast majority of dojo.

The premise of MMA is a good one. And like I said, if you want to beat a boxer at boxing, learn to box.
This is untrue and witnessed in MMA bouts. I will say from personal experiences with several boxers who ended up knocked out or on their asses that I never learned how to box a day in my life.
Aikido is not useless unarmed. However it's not as sophisticated as other arts specializing in unarmed fighting. This is where I start to get tangential, I don't believe the techniques of Aikido were ever designed to deal with sophisticated unarmed situations.
Starting around the mid 90's the ability that prevailed for me was in fact -aiki- and not the use of jujutsu based MMA on my part that won the day. Of course people need to have learned how to fight, but aiki in the hands of a fighter is an extremely potent weapon that can do a lot of damage.

However I do believe they (aikido techniques) were designed too, and work very well in armed situations. The "unarmed" techniques in Aikido are much more akin to traditional Koryu style techniques which work around weapons problems.
No actually they are a poor representative of both sides of the equation. I have yet to ever meet anyone conversant in Koryu who would agree with any measure or degree of aikido being representative of the good use of weapons nor their unarmed techniques being akin to koryu methods for dealing with weapons. In fact they are typically seen as antithetical to a Koryu approaches. IME I have not found aikido waza to be effective in unarmed response to an attack with weapons for the simple reason that I have yet to see anyone in aikido use a weapon in a manner I consider to be effective in the first place. Why is it people try to make aikido a fits all art? It was never meant to be that in the first place. So where is the surprise?
If they do exist somewhere, I would love to see them. You would need know and understand how to really use weapons in order to train and understand how to defend against them-don't you think? If you disagree can you point me to any source in aikido for effective use of weapons compared to Koryu in an attack form? I would love to see it and possibly meet them.
And going beyond that there are men who have taken koryu into freestyle use of various weapons trained in freestyle- I think you would have a lot of fun meeting someone with a deeper understanding of weapons and what they can do before you state aikido can handle that sort of pressured environment, Chris.

As far as carrying a weapon goes, if one wants they can always be armed. Look around you there are hundreds of weapons right this second. Pick something up, a broom, a fire extinguisher, a kitchen knife, a bottle, there are almost always weapons, or things that can be used as weapons around you.
Were you to agree that some classical arts have very valuable lessons in the use of weapons than you might agree that the use of improvised weapons use can be approached rather well from some classical approaches to the use of weapons. Many of the principles transfer over quite well. There is no substitute for testing and the use of armor to more freely express in a more pressured environment.
I wouldn't recommend Aikido for someone interested in unarmed strikes or unarmed defenses against them. Like I said take boxing for 3 months!
I find boxing (while I am a fan) to be fine for use in most cases. But I find it limiting as an approach for unarmed combat in general and would never advocate it over the broader range of what's available today in MMA. Not the least of which will be the eventual use of internal power and aiki...in Aikido
Cheers
Dan

ChrisHein
06-26-2009, 04:52 PM
Dan Harden,
How about a video of you dealing with a boxer using your aiki skill?