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Jake_Colburn
08-06-2008, 12:45 PM
Hi,
I'm new.

Just a little background, I have not taken any martial art before but i have been interested in aikido for a while now and i will hopefully start on the 8th at aikido of diablo valley. I spar with a friend of mine that i have known since i was a toddler and we go at it for fun he has taken karate as a kid but not long. I asked him if i could use what i learned in aikido when we spar.

I was wondering if i could seriously wound him with some flips i noticed that the person gos wit the fall so they are not hurt. If he didn't go with the move or something because i know bruises happen but i would feel absolutely horrible is i hurt him badly.

Thank you,
Jake Colburn

dalen7
08-06-2008, 01:00 PM
Aikido messes with joints - so yes you can easily hurt someone if not careful.

Peace

dAlen

Ron Tisdale
08-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Please train for a while (at least 6 mos to a year) before you start messing around with your friend and aikido.

A) You might give aikido a bad name, even after 10 years ;)

B) You really should train under an instructor for a period before beginning to share...you may not be aware of certain types of injuries that can occur, or how to modify the waza not to cause injury. Shiho nage comes to mind...if you cut their hand away from their shoulder, they could be really ticked off.

Best,
Ron

Jake_Colburn
08-06-2008, 01:26 PM
Thank you Ron and Dalen

When i spare with my friend i will stick to our standard free style sparing :)

Jake

Ron Tisdale
08-06-2008, 01:32 PM
That said, there's nothing wrong with noticing where you might find opportunities to lead someone into a throw, or ways to take someone's balance without actually doing a waza. There's a ton to learn in sparring...even how to breathe, how to hold your body, what movements work...etc.

Best,
Ron

Cyrijl
08-06-2008, 01:57 PM
I don't think aikido's really going to change he way you spar. At least not for a while. But at any rate, if you are sparring you should always make sure you are being safe regardless of the ruleset.

DonMagee
08-06-2008, 02:02 PM
I say go for it. As long as the moves you use are within the ruleset you lay down before sparing. It will probably have very little effect at first, but it will be a learning experience.

It might slow your process in learning aikido, but it will improve your process of learning how to fight with similar movements.

Jake_Colburn
08-06-2008, 02:21 PM
Well its not really a rule set its more first one to say give. (also if any blood)

Its sparring in one since but there is no rule set use what ever until one says give. That is why i would use aikido he uses some karate moves on but we kinda both just taught each other how to fight im not gonna say were good or anything but we more do this for fun and also to pass the time we wrestle punch just anything we do to win kinda.

We use freestyle with bare fist no protection.

Jake

mickeygelum
08-06-2008, 02:49 PM
Why ask, just do it....:rolleyes:

Jake_Colburn
08-06-2008, 02:58 PM
I like what Ron and Don said in their last posts. I think i will just use it in moderation, and be careful when i am. I will also not use much until about 6 months to a year like Ron said.

I do have one more question. Since I'm just starting aikido i was wondering what i should look for Aikido of diablo valley is close to me and has a 5th level Dan. I considered many factors of distance/gas and High rank of Dan but what else should i look for? I also want to train quite a bit because i start college in December and until then i have a ton of free time and would like to make that time as productive as possible. I am still going to continue after December but i just will have to make more time to practice rather than have it free.

Thank you all for your advice.
Jake Colburn

Ron Tisdale
08-06-2008, 04:08 PM
Try the dojo before you decide. Try classes in all the ones you are willing to travel to. See how the students relate to each other, and how the instructor relates to the students.

Listen a lot, and then at some point be willing to just invest in one situation for a while. You'll learn things over time that may make you change your mind about when, where, under whom it is best to train. But the only way to learn those things...is to train somewhere, under someone.

It's kind of a fun process!

Best,
Ron

DonMagee
08-06-2008, 06:15 PM
Well its not really a rule set its more first one to say give. (also if any blood)

Its sparring in one since but there is no rule set use what ever until one says give. That is why i would use aikido he uses some karate moves on but we kinda both just taught each other how to fight im not gonna say were good or anything but we more do this for fun and also to pass the time we wrestle punch just anything we do to win kinda.

We use freestyle with bare fist no protection.

Jake

This concerns me greatly. Productive sparing should always have rules. This helps focus and develop the participants and make the sparing productive. These rules do not need to be MMA or Boxing or Olympic judo. They do not need to be restrictive or nonrestrictive, but they must exist and define a clear purpose for the session.

For example, the purpose of bjj sparing is to learn to flow better in your grappling, so we remove the things that lesson that goal and decrease training time (strikes). MMA fighters sometimes isolate their sparing into standup, clinch, and ground and pound/grappling. This helps them focus on a important area of their training.

You should really identify and put down rules, even if they are few.

Now that said, I'm sure you have rules, you just don't realize you do. I will demonstrate. If we were about to spar would it be ok for me to grab you and gouge your eyes or rip your ear? Can I bite you? Kick to the grion? Grab to the groin? Can I grab your head by the ears and beat it into the ground until you give up? What about downward strikes to the base of your spine? Can I grab and break your fingers?

Beyond all that, how hard am I allowed to go? Am I punching for knockouts or just to show you that you have an opening? When I get my submission, do I break that arm/wrist/ankle/knee/neck or take you to the point of tapping?

All these things need to be discussed and rules should be in place before productive sparing can happen. You and your partner need to know if you are playing tag, trying to knock each other out, or hitting each other hard enough to keep it honest.

That is not to say you should ban 'dangerous' moves. I have spared with guys where some 'illegal/bad/dangerous' moves were allowed. Usually to reinforce or prove a point.

I personally would not want every sparing match to be a drop down drag out fight. I know for sure I wouldn't even want 1/3 of them to be like that. I want most of my sparing to be isolated to a subset of fighting at a moderate pace. And a small part of my sparing all inclusive again at a moderate pace. Then when I go to compete I kick it up to full speed with the rules I plan to compete under. If I was a non-competitor, I'd probably do the same thing once every 6 months or so, to keep it honest so to speak.

Kevin Leavitt
08-06-2008, 06:54 PM
Don gives some good advice. You have to define endstates, objectives, set the conditions and parameters in order to engage in any meaningful discourse.

Kinda like saying chess and checkers are the same because you have the same number of pieces, on the same board, but one is playing checkers and the other is playing chess...is there any meaningful interaction going on?

Typically as practiced, karate and aikido approach "conflict" in two slightly different ways (most of the time). So as you guys come at it together, unless you've defined things adequately...you probably won't do much meaningful, and end up arguing that each of you doesn't understand the other.

Janet Rosen
08-06-2008, 07:52 PM
Jake, I've never been a member of ADV but have visited several times over the years for seminars and feel comfortable totally recommending the dojo. The instructors are very experienced and have created a dojo atmosphere that is very safe and welcoming but the way they teach and the principles they stress are "the real deal", not watered down. I also like that they have always been very open about sharing their space and students with visiting instructors from a variety of styles, including not purely aikido - this may seem confusing to a newbie, but it means they are themselves still open minded, learning and growing, where a lot of dojos have a close minded "us versus them" attitude.

Jake_Colburn
08-07-2008, 01:27 AM
Now that said, I'm sure you have rules, you just don't realize you do. I will demonstrate. If we were about to spar would it be ok for me to grab you and gouge your eyes or rip your ear? Can I bite you? Kick to the grion? Grab to the groin? Can I grab your head by the ears and beat it into the ground until you give up? What about downward strikes to the base of your spine? Can I grab and break your fingers?

Beyond all that, how hard am I allowed to go? Am I punching for knockouts or just to show you that you have an opening? When I get my submission, do I break that arm/wrist/ankle/knee/neck or take you to the point of tapping?


Ok i see what you mean Don this has enlightened me a bit i guess me and my friend spar with a kind of unspoken rules, were not try to kill each other but make each other better.I think we punch to show an opening neither i nor him have ever knocked each other out. For the joints and limbs i think the worst we done is kick the leg out from each other not breaking them insurance purposes and all that would cost us for just sparing :) . We don't spar too often like this any more but we will spar like once a month just for a bit of fun. We always had like the uncle/ i give rule and it stops there so we don't hurt each other badly.

Janet i really appreciate you post i haven't really met some one i can ask about ADV i was hoping to find some one who has been there. Tomorrow mourning I am planning on visiting to find out more about the dojo's location and how much i can train there ect.

Jake

ChrisHein
08-07-2008, 11:36 AM
If you two rough house on a regular basis, and don't hurt each other, then throwing Aikido into the mix likely isn't going to hurt anyone.

Aikido people love to talk about how Aikido is the most gentle martial art in the world enabling you to take down even the most aggressive attacker without hurting them. Then 2 minutes later they'll tell you how Aikido techniques are very likely to dislocate your joints...

Truth is very few Aikidoka ever spar. for the ones that do, first time they spar is usually their last. This because both guys go at it as hard as the possibly can. Throwing all reason and understanding that they are just training out the window. The will both get pretty banged up.

Then they run to sensei who informs them they are not ready for such sparring (cause likely he isn't either). Then they talk about how cool O-sensei was, and that's the end of it.

If you guys are used to sparring, and know how far you can push each other, you are going to be no more unsafe with a few new techniques. In fact, you'll probably find that you can't often use the techniques, then you'll decide they don't work, and you'll be back for a new post that starts like this:

"I can't use Aikido techniques while I spar!"

I've got an answer for that one too, I'll be waiting.

Jake_Colburn
08-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Chris i think i understand what you mean kind of. It isn't just techniques aikido teaches if I'm correct.

Though i am kind of left in the dark about it. So until i learn more i have no way of understanding what you mean.

From what i read, and from what i think your post is getting at is that aikido also teaches you to judge your attack and respond accordingly and its more than just techniques?

-Jake

DonMagee
08-07-2008, 12:52 PM
To put it this way...

Using aikido techniques in sparing is a challenge it itself. You are more likely to fail at it then actually hurt someone.

At least that is how it has been for me.

Jake_Colburn
08-07-2008, 01:22 PM
Well this would lead me to the question, then how is it useful in a fight. I understand judging the attackers and such but like if the techniques fail a lot then i don't understand how it would help in a real fight or am i missing a key factor ? I'm newbie so just trying to understand more and as much as i can.

Alfonso
08-07-2008, 01:56 PM
Janet, thanks for the kind words!

Jake, I hope to meet you sometime at the dojo, and maybe help to answer some of your questions.

I think you may have a lot of fun with us and no worries, "fight questions" are ok.

Lan Powers
08-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Gotta karate friend in Lubbock who spars with her dojo-buds quite a bit. One of these guys is a ni-dan (2'nd degree black belt) in aikido who likes karate /sparring/etc. a lot too.
Very revealing, i think, was her description of how he incorporates aikido movement and entering into the match. He CAN but usually WON'T incorporate joint-focused techniques like kotegaeshi into his sparring for the simple reason that most folks will "fight" the movement instead of moving with it to keep safe.
"I can get out of this...owwww" Resistance is very valuable to training, but uncontrolled......lots of potential for injury.

There is a reason most training starts compliant, then adds progressive resistance. (without "competing" )

Be careful and keep you BOTH safe.
Lan

Jake_Colburn
08-07-2008, 02:04 PM
Oh cool a person from aikido of diablo valley. I am planning on visiting the 6:30 class tonight i was going to come the early one dad needed the car....

-Jake

salim
08-07-2008, 02:10 PM
Here somewhat of an example of Aikido and sparring. Anyway, it's interesting to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

Jake_Colburn
08-07-2008, 02:24 PM
Salim shaw wow that is an interesting watch.

DonMagee
08-07-2008, 02:39 PM
It is not that the techniques fail, it is simply that they are not the easiest to pull off. I have had some success with some aikido style techniques in sparing, but they are few and far between for me.

Jake_Colburn
08-07-2008, 03:03 PM
Ah so it's hard to pull off i see.

BWells
08-07-2008, 03:54 PM
Hi Jake, I'm another ADV student (thanks for good word Janet and hi Alf). I'll be at the beginning class on Friday so we can talk in more detail but in general I have two comments on sparing.

1. Most aikido ends up with someone taking ukemi (falls), so if you are playing using aikido and neither of you are comfortable with falling, you need to gear it down and be careful.

2. In my view the connection to the attacker, blending, maintaining my own center and taking the attackers balance are much more what aikido is about, rather than doing techniques. If I take your balance I have a whole lot of techniques I can use, but if I'm just trying to do a technique, especially against a striker, I'm liable to eat a fist and right now my wife has me on a diet so I should not be doing that!

Jake_Colburn
08-07-2008, 04:10 PM
Wow two AVD students nice to meet you both.

Bruce that explains a lot. As you can tell I have a ton i need to learn :eek: :eek: but i am wanting to put in a lot of time.

I am looking forward to being tossed around like a doll and learning as much as i can. I should be stopping by tonight to look at the place :) for i may have to take bart once and awhile.

And Bruce don't violate your diet with someones fist :freaky: .

Ron Tisdale
08-08-2008, 11:06 AM
Hi Chris and Don,

While I agree with what you said relative to not making the aiki waza work in sparring (hence my A), the problem is those times when it does work. It is often dramatic, sudden, and possibly quite injurious on those few times...if you buddy can't take falls, or realize what's happening and choose to go with it at the right time.

Best,
Ron (at least, on some of the few times I've been there, that's what happened)

Enrique Antonio Reyes
08-09-2008, 11:48 AM
If you two rough house on a regular basis, and don't hurt each other, then throwing Aikido into the mix likely isn't going to hurt anyone.

Aikido people love to talk about how Aikido is the most gentle martial art in the world enabling you to take down even the most aggressive attacker without hurting them. Then 2 minutes later they'll tell you how Aikido techniques are very likely to dislocate your joints...

Truth is very few Aikidoka ever spar. for the ones that do, first time they spar is usually their last. This because both guys go at it as hard as the possibly can. Throwing all reason and understanding that they are just training out the window. The will both get pretty banged up.

Then they run to sensei who informs them they are not ready for such sparring (cause likely he isn't either). Then they talk about how cool O-sensei was, and that's the end of it.

If you guys are used to sparring, and know how far you can push each other, you are going to be no more unsafe with a few new techniques. In fact, you'll probably find that you can't often use the techniques, then you'll decide they don't work, and you'll be back for a new post that starts like this:

"I can't use Aikido techniques while I spar!"

I've got an answer for that one too, I'll be waiting.

This is the most realistic answer for me. Nice one Chris.
I wonder what's your answer to the latter question?...

One-Aiki,

Iking

Martin Goodyear
08-16-2008, 11:41 AM
Hi all,

How about one of you gloves up and puts on headgear, then goes at the other with varying degrees of intensity. The ungloved aikido chap can then do his thing.

Gloves make a mess of sword-hands. Also, with a clear aggressor, the aikido person can keep to the spirit of not getting drawn into a brawl - just finish the job at hand.

Martin.

P.S. A warning on the gloves issue. I once heard about some kung-fu guys using gloves as an excuse for their poor performance against some muay thai guys. The thai boxers said OK and took their gloves off, then gave them a proper hiding.

lbb
08-18-2008, 09:59 AM
Well this would lead me to the question, then how is it useful in a fight. I understand judging the attackers and such but like if the techniques fail a lot then i don't understand how it would help in a real fight or am i missing a key factor ? I'm newbie so just trying to understand more and as much as i can.

Uggggh...the groaner....

Jake, in my opinion aikido can be plenty useful in a fight if you don't give a damn about your opponent. It won't be very useful to you as a newbie, though (nor will any other martial art, but for a different set of reasons). Why do you want to study aikido, anyway? Are you under constant physical threat? If so, there are better ways to deal with it than starting study of an empty-hand martial art. Do you want to study so that you can pick fights with others? You're not going to really develop that skill set in the dojo, either. You need to step back and identify what problem you're trying to solve, before you decide if aikido is the tool.

Oh, and before you say, "Well, I want to get fit and learn how to handle myself in a fight (just, y'know, in case) and focus my mind and become enlightened and improve my coordination and develop my stamina and..." Think about it. If you walked into a hardware store and said, "I want a tool that will drive nails and paint a house and tell me if something is level and drill holes and dig a ditch," the people in the store would think you were crazy. Martial arts is no different -- it's a practice engaged in by human beings, it ain't magic.

Michael Douglas
08-18-2008, 12:48 PM
[QUOTE=Mary Malmros;213835... If you walked into a hardware store and said, "I want a tool that will drive nails and paint a house and tell me if something is level and drill holes and dig a ditch," the people in the store would think you were crazy. [/QUOTE]
Well actually they'd be rubbing their hands with glee, and trying to sell him tons of expensive gizmos.
But that's off-topic here.

I second Martin's suggestion of ONE putting on gloves and a head/face protector and the other one 'doing aikido' or whatnot to him, it's the only way it makes sense.
And VIDEO please, m'kay?

lbb
08-18-2008, 01:29 PM
Well actually they'd be rubbing their hands with glee, and trying to sell him tons of expensive gizmos.


And you'd be saying, "No no no no I said A tool A tool A ONE SINGULAR TOOL!!!" And the Grizzled Old Hardware guy would sigh and say, "Son..."

gregg block
08-23-2008, 08:27 AM
It is not that the techniques fail, it is simply that they are not the easiest to pull off. I have had some success with some aikido style techniques in sparing, but they are few and far between for me.

A stunning strike would to need pave the way for my technique to be effective in a realistic situation. Without a good atemi I just don't see this stuff working, but then again i'm a striker at heart and my aikido needs some work..

bankai
08-29-2008, 04:00 AM
A stunning strike would to need pave the way for my technique to be effective in a realistic situation. Without a good atemi I just don't see this stuff working, but then again i'm a striker at heart and my aikido needs some work..

I think you`re correct there. aikido works best with a strike. if nothing else to take their balance.

I don`t think you should try using it for a while,however. My arguement is, as of now, you don`t know what you don`t know. For example, if you do do a hip throw and drop to your knee you might break his neck.

That being said Aikido principles are in most martial arts. Everyone makes it sound like all these arts are different but I think they are just branches off the same tree. Aikido being one of those brances.

gregg block
09-05-2008, 03:07 PM
I think you`re correct there. aikido works best with a strike. if nothing else to take their balance.

I don`t think you should try using it for a while,however. My arguement is, as of now, you don`t know what you don`t know. For example, if you do do a hip throw and drop to your knee you might break his neck.

That being said Aikido principles are in most martial arts. Everyone makes it sound like all these arts are different but I think they are just branches off the same tree. Aikido being one of those brances.

In a realistic situation I doubt I would use Aikido at all. I think I would instintively return to the striking art I spent 20 years in not where I've spent the past 4..Though I think the last 4 will hopefully help me avoid such situations at all..gb

Kevin Leavitt
09-06-2008, 12:19 AM
FWIW. I don't believe you use any "art" or "style" to fight with, you use the skills and experiences gained from them. Thus you use yourself.

Seems like a minor detail, but I think framing things in a "art" centric perspective becomes limiting both in training and in reality.

lbb
09-06-2008, 07:01 PM
FWIW. I don't believe you use any "art" or "style" to fight with, you use the skills and experiences gained from them. Thus you use yourself.

Seems like a minor detail, but I think framing things in a "art" centric perspective becomes limiting both in training and in reality.

Doesn't seem minor to me! It seems like a fundamental truth.

Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2008, 04:38 AM
Agreed, it is not minor to me either Mary.