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MM
08-06-2008, 09:12 AM
I thought that there had been other posts about the core techniques in aikido. I did a quick search and couldn't find them to use as a reference. I'm pretty sure they're out there, though.

But, I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido and more importantly, why? Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?

Demetrio Cereijo
08-06-2008, 09:48 AM
But, I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido and more importantly, why? Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?

For me: Ikkyo, Irimi Nage, Shiho Nage and Tenchi Nage... in no particular order. Why? Everything you need is there.

For Ueshiba: I don't have idea.

MM
08-06-2008, 10:04 AM
For me: Ikkyo, Irimi Nage, Shiho Nage and Tenchi Nage... in no particular order. Why? Everything you need is there.


Hello Demetrio,

When you say everything you need, can you explain that a little more? I don't understand what you mean.


For Ueshiba: I don't have idea.

Yeah, I can understand that answer. :) I think a lot of people spend time trying to understand what Ueshiba did and why. Maybe someone will post their opinion, though.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-06-2008, 10:19 AM
More or less:

Ikkyo: For learning how to take uke's center and power generation.
Irimi nage: For learning how to enter without fear.
Shiho nage: For learning hot to spin without losing your own balance while keeping uke unbalanced.
Tenchi nage: For learning how to maintain opposite tension.

BTW. I'm also trying to understand Ueshiba, but it's still a work in progress so better keep things to myself :)

Allen Beebe
08-06-2008, 10:27 AM
Mark,

You are asking someone to post the Aikido's Gokui?

Allen

Demetrio Cereijo
08-06-2008, 10:31 AM
A bit late :)

http://books.google.es/books?id=_SX2IwAACAAJ&dq=secrets+aikido&client=firefox-a

MM
08-06-2008, 10:36 AM
Mark,

You are asking someone to post the Aikido's Gokui?

Allen

Hi Allen,

No. Just wondered what people thought of their syllabus, what techniques they deemed "core", and why. There's such a difference in syllabus throughout, but yet, there's also a similarity.

I wouldn't be surprised to find ikkyo listed many times. After all, it's seen throughout aikido. But why is it a core technique ... for each individual person?

Garth Jones
08-06-2008, 11:31 AM
In the two volume 'Best Aikido' by the current and former Doshus they divide techniques into 'fundamental,' 'basic,' and 'advanced.' They have a good explanation of why they make those distinctions.

Cheers,
Garth

MM
08-06-2008, 11:59 AM
In the two volume 'Best Aikido' by the current and former Doshus they divide techniques into 'fundamental,' 'basic,' and 'advanced.' They have a good explanation of why they make those distinctions.

Cheers,
Garth

Hi Garth,

Thanks! I don't have either volume. I recently ordered Aikido Shugyo and Takemusu Aiki. So, Best Aikido will have to get added to the to-be-purchased list. The book fund only goes so far. :)

Mark

Keith Larman
08-06-2008, 11:59 AM
... I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido

Aiki Taiso and ki tests.

and more importantly, why?

I've been consistently taught that they are the skills and movements underlying our waza. In the years I've been training I've not yet had reason to doubt it. Nor have I completely figure it out yet either...

The second reason stems from the first. I'm a student first and foremost. I'm not sufficiently enlightened yet to be making my own judgements (I'm firmly and unabashedly in the 'ha' level of my understanding of Aikido and I know it). My sensei studied directly with R. Kobayashi-sensei for decades. R. Kobayashi-sensei trained with Tohei-sensei among others. Who brings us back O-sensei... Or to put this another way... Cause my sensei said so...

Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?

Never met the man and I wouldn't presume to know his mind. But these things came to our group via Tohei-sensei and O-Sensei did think highly enough of him to make him Chief Instructor back in the day.

mickeygelum
08-06-2008, 12:06 PM
Mr. Murray,

Shodokan has the Junana Hon Kata, which is the core/basis for everything in our system. The Junana Hon Kata is the research of Professor Tomiki, thus the reduction to the basic techniques, from there everything else is built. Professor Tomiki's ability, rank and experience are already documented, I need not further elaborate.

Tegatana Dosa and Shichi Hon No Kuzushi, the foot/hand exercises unique to Shodokan, is a foundation for taisabaki and kuzushi. The practice of these skill sets will enhance posture, timing, speed and distance in execution of any technique.

Here is a link the Junana Hon Kata demonstrated by Sakai Sensei, at the 2007 World Games, this past August.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D48Ds8woSPs

I hope this helps.

Train well,

Mickey

MM
08-06-2008, 12:16 PM
Aiki Taiso and ki tests.


Hi Keith,

Thanks for the reply! Do you think there's specific Aiki Taiso that are more important? Or that they all build various skills and each is important for the whole development?

Personally, I'm getting more out of doing the wrist "stretches" right now than I am out of doing fune kogi undo. Not that I think fune kogi is useless, just that I'm still working out all the subtleties of that exercise. :)

MM
08-06-2008, 12:25 PM
Mr. Murray,


Please, it's Mark. Hope you've had a chance to get together with Holloway already. Tell him that I said he's a bum. :)


Shodokan has the Junana Hon Kata, which is the core/basis for everything in our system. The Junana Hon Kata is the research of Professor Tomiki, thus the reduction to the basic techniques, from there everything else is built. Professor Tomiki's ability, rank and experience are already documented, I need not further elaborate.


Thanks! I find that Tomiki was one of the quieter "geniuses" of aikido. It would have been nice to have met and trained with him.

I'm familiar with the junana kata -- I have a background (from years ago) in the Jiyushinkai. :) Although what I remember is slightly different from the youtube vid. What do you think of the koryu dai yon kata?

Thanks,
Mark

Keith Larman
08-06-2008, 12:59 PM
Hi Keith,

Thanks for the reply! Do you think there's specific Aiki Taiso that are more important? Or that they all build various skills and each is important for the whole development?

Personally, I'm getting more out of doing the wrist "stretches" right now than I am out of doing fune kogi undo. Not that I think fune kogi is useless, just that I'm still working out all the subtleties of that exercise. :)

I find all the exercises have their merits. Some are more complex than others, but they all have their place. And I often work on individual ones on my own time. Every now and then I'll position myself in front of a large mirror we have on the left side of the main wall in our training area. I've yet to get through the aiki taiso without making some mental notes on things I needed to improve/fix/look into further.

Too many consider the aiki taiso a warmup IMHO. I see them as the most critical part of the training. One thing I tend to tell my students is that the aiki taiso is a time when you can work on a large number of critical skills without some bozo yanking you around. And since there is no uke they should be able to do each exercise with precision, perfect balance and proper flow. And I've found that as I refine my form in the aiki taiso many problems during actual practice tend to go away all by themselves... Shoshin ni kaeru.

FWIW I remember being somewhat puzzled with the early discussions about "internal" stuff being lacking nowadays in Aikido. I thought that was exactly what the aiki taiso was all about all along. It has been beaten into my head that way for the time I've been training. I've since visited many more dojo and found there is quite a variation in how training is approached so I guess I understand the concern more now. That said I've met a lot of really great aikidoka who approach things differently. Lots of paths up the mountain and all that.

But it did reaffirm my personal focus on improving those basic things for myself as taught within our style... Focus on the "one-point"/hara/whatever you call it. Get that basic controlled tension. Let the ki flow from it. Stay relaxed but with control. Settle down into the ground in a solid fashion. Now start moving without losing any of those things... Critical things to every one of the aiki taiso right down to even the wrist exercises.

YMMV. Just the opinions of one fella and all opinions are my own responsibility... :)

dalen7
08-06-2008, 01:06 PM
Hmmm -

Sankyo, and...Sankyo (all roads lead to Sankyo if you want them to) ;)

- Nikkyo aint half bad either. :)

But here is kind of our base:

- Shiho nage
- Irmi nage
- UchiKaiten nage & UchiKaiten Sankyo...totally cool...
(also SotoKaiten nage)
- Kote gaeshi

- Ikko,
- Nikkyo
- Sankyo

Peace

dAlen

Keith Larman
08-06-2008, 01:35 PM
To kinda finalize my thoughts...

Watching someone who can really dance I think illustrates what I feel. The really good dancer isn't a good dancer because they know particular dance moves. Nope, they need to know them but ultimately it's all about *how* they do them. Most start by learning where to put their feet, where to put their hands, then how to move. At some point (hopefully) they stop just moving around like an automaton but start *dancing*. It is something completely transcendent from the actual "dance steps". The goal of most dancers is to learn to really *dance* in the sense of Fred Astaire gliding across the floor with Ginger Rogers flowing along in perfect harmony. Or a ballet dancer making the incredibly difficult look easy. But more than that; making it beautiful. Transcending the moves.

Or in music... Not just playing the notes in the right order, but making music. The notes aren't the music. The music is the synthesis of everything involved becoming a transcendent experience. Just listen to some of Duke Ellington's solo piano work... Reflections in D for example. Not particularly difficult but amazing in every subtle way. I can play it note for note, but it just ain't the same as when Duke plays it...

Aikido is I think very much a similar thing. Techniques are taught as a means of giving us glimpses as to what Aikido is all about. The techniques themselves are not aikido, merely means of discovering and exploring it. At some point I began to realize that for me it isn't the techniques that matter but the underlying structure that it teaches you about. And that underlying structure is all there in the aiki taiso and ki tests as well. So each technique isn't aikido nor are they as a set the "basics" of aikido IMO. They're more tools to find the real deal... So I go back to the ki tests and aiki taiso. Then practice techniques to try to put those lessons into action under more difficult circumstances. But if I can't do the aiki taiso or ki tests well the other stuff is pretty much a non-starter for me personally.

Again, just my opinions. Blame me. :)

mickeygelum
08-06-2008, 01:58 PM
Hey Mark,

Tuhan Holloway sends his regards...he spoke highly of you at dinner last night. I was able to show him my schools and what is available in the future. He mentioned that the proximity was ideal for all of us to get together on a regular basis. You, and your folks, are welcome to stay at my main dojo instead of seeking hotel accommodations. Tuhan is giving a introductory clinic this evening, everyone is really looking forward to it.

As for the Junana Hon Kata...yes, Jiyushinkai has its own interpretation as well as the Tegatana No Kata vs. Tegatana Dosa, yet they both derive from Ashi Waza. Tegatana No Kata focuses on fluid motion and body awareness, Tegatana Dosa focuses on application...taisabaki/kuzushi. Tegatana Dosa could appear to be a condensed version of Tegatana No Kata, depending on your perspective.

Koryu Dai Yon Kata...my favorite. I believe that it is the most powerful in terms of application of kata. 33 techniques in a minute and a half....:hypno:

Train well,

Mickey

Lan Powers
08-06-2008, 02:03 PM
Extremely well put, Mr Larman

Lan

Janet Rosen
08-06-2008, 03:31 PM
Where I currently train, folks start with and learn variations from "Basic Eight" which, I believe, probably came from Tohei Sensei/Ki Society? They are:
Katatori ikkyo
Katatori nikyo
Yokomenuchi Shihonage
Shomenuchi Kokyunage (which is everybody else's iriminage)
Tsuki Kotegaishe
Forward projection throw from a ushiro bear hug
Sankyo from ushiro wrist grab/hand to throat
Kokyu dosa

Joe McParland
08-06-2008, 08:23 PM
Extremely well put, Mr Larman


Seconded!

xuzen
08-06-2008, 10:35 PM
I thought that there had been other posts about the core techniques in aikido. I did a quick search and couldn't find them to use as a reference. I'm pretty sure they're out there, though.

But, I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido and more importantly, why? Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?

Shiho nage for me b' coz:

1) It teaches principle of tenkan very well
2) It teaches the principle of blending very well
3) It teaches the principle of non-resistance very well
4) all if not most of the principle found to work in aikido are found in shihonage
5) and... I am good at it.

Sorry don't know about M.Ueshiba.

Boon

Janet Rosen
08-06-2008, 11:21 PM
As I recall, the first techniques I was instructed in were shomenuchi ikkyo and katatetori shihonage and katatetori sumiotoshi, and the reason is I could backfall for months before I could roll!

I still think sumiotoshi is a nice basic technique because it shows the principles of entering and of kuzushi in a way a newbie can immediately see on a basic level.

Flintstone
08-07-2008, 06:41 AM
I would say Ippon Dori. It has irimi, it has atemi, it has control, it opens many doors to go on from it...

eyrie
08-07-2008, 07:03 AM
I was talking to someone the other day and the answer I gave was something along these lines. There are 6 basic joint-locks/pins (ikkyo-rokyo), and 8 basic throws (shiho, irimi, kokyu, kaiten, kotegaeshi, tenchi, koshi, juji), each of which can be executed from 3 basic grabs (katate, kata, ushiro) and 3 basic strikes (yokomen, shomen, tsuki). Rather than consider the 126 possible combinations, times 2 for omote/ura, plus variations, plus supplementary techniques, I would only consider the "stuff" in the middle to be the actual technique. So we're basically talking about 14 major (and common) techniques.

The "core" techniques, to me, are principal to the art, in terms of core learning principles. I think if you can understand the core techniques (and concomitant principles), you've pretty much got the gist of the art. But then I could be wrong.... :D

So, what I think are the core techniques are:
ikkyo - coz everything is ikkyo
shiho - coz the basis of all other throws is derived from an understanding of shiho
kokyu - coz no kokyu no aikido

No idea about Ueshiba.... can't ask him.

Angela Dunn
08-07-2008, 08:53 AM
Personally for me they are

Forward and backward roles (having a mind blank to what they are actually called at the moment)- simply from a safety aspect they are safer to land from when your begaining. Also if you can not forward role properly then how can you learn how to breakfall properly (as our class says a breakfall is just a role with a slap)

Shiho nage , most other throwing techniques I have been taught can be found from that

Ikkkyo- again any other pin can be found from that move

Sankyo- because I really like that move but also the throws at my level, if not found from Shiho nage can be found from Sankyo.

Mato-san
08-07-2008, 11:02 AM
I thought that there had been other posts about the core techniques in aikido. I did a quick search and couldn't find them to use as a reference. I'm pretty sure they're out there, though.

But, I wondered what people thought were the core techniques of their aikido and more importantly, why? Secondarily, why do you think they would be important from Ueshiba's point of view?

Hi mark, first off I am sure no-one would like to speak on behalf of Osensei.
I did read a post that said Aikido techniques would be looked at in 2 different lights. (Lynn Sensei from memory) some have principle value and some practical value, so for myself, you take away either principle or practical from every technique. "Core" for me would be the principle component . Like tenkan done well, irimi done well etc. The foundation is the core, I am sure any time your Sensei says that you are are doing kihon waza that you should open your mind and see practical or principle and internally process it.

ChrisHein
08-07-2008, 11:24 AM
The core techniques of Aikido are not uncommon in other traditional Japanese taijutsu. These techniques are at the very heart of controlling a person with a weapon, or freeing yourself up so that you can use yours.

MM
08-07-2008, 11:27 AM
Hi Mathew,

Thanks for replying!

Hi mark, first off I am sure no-one would like to speak on behalf of Osensei.



Of that, I do not doubt. :) But, really, what I was asking is what each person's interpretation of what Ueshiba would have thought. Not speak for Ueshiba.

For example, we see video of Ueshiba doing many techniques and have photos of him doing techniques. So, we know he did think some things were worth training. So, why do you think he thought that way about specific techniques? Really, all we have from Ueshiba is guesses, opinions, and theories at this point.

Mark

MM
08-07-2008, 11:28 AM
The core techniques of Aikido are not uncommon in other traditional Japanese taijutsu. These techniques are at the very heart of controlling a person with a weapon, or freeing yourself up so that you can use yours.

Hi Chris,

What would you consider those core techniques?

Thanks,
Mark

ChrisHein
08-07-2008, 06:47 PM
Kotegaishi, Shiho nage, Nikyo, Sankyo, Ikkyo, Irimi nage, Koshi nage, Kokyu nage, Kaiten nage, Rokyo, juji nage.

Bryan Sproles
08-08-2008, 01:44 AM
From what I've seen, read and experienced (with some previous JuJItsu training as well), in Aikido, I would say the core basics are:

Ukemi (mae, ushiro, yoko)

Kamae - basic stance

Tenkan - standard method of moving, helps blend with uke during techniques

Kokyu Ho - breath technique, standard exercise

Tai no Henko - Basic movements

Ikkyo - A very common technique to get uke to the mat. Can be done on its own, or in combination with many other techniques, e.g. -- nikkyo/sankyo -> ikkyo, ikkyo -> kotegaeshi, etc.

Nikkyo - Standard wrist lock for controlling uke

Sankyo - Another form of controlling uke

Shihonage - Probably my favorite (and best) technique - teaches how to tenkan, shift weight, maintain balance, sword movements (bringing the sword (elbow) up, and cutting down to throw.)

Finally, core...not techniques, but rather principles that *I'm* getting from Aikido:

circularity
zanshin
sword-based movement
moving from the hips

And finally for me, absolutely essential is an eagerness and willingness to learn :)

-Bryan

Mato-san
08-09-2008, 08:11 AM
Hi Mathew,

Thanks for replying!

Of that, I do not doubt. :) But, really, what I was asking is what each person's interpretation of what Ueshiba would have thought. Not speak for Ueshiba.

For example, we see video of Ueshiba doing many techniques and have photos of him doing techniques. So, we know he did think some things were worth training. So, why do you think he thought that way about specific techniques? Really, all we have from Ueshiba is guesses, opinions, and theories at this point.

Mark
I believe he thought that way about techniques because he was a Martial Arts connoisseur.

You can take a bunch of ushiro-tekubi waza, any sized bunch you like, if you are not doing correct foot movement, timing, distance and more importantly the principle behind the movement smoothly, the entire bunch is void. So the technique itself is just a single useless technique. Learn the principle behind that bunch and BINGO! You got loads of waza from that grab.

A solid foundation of principles makes a solid Aikido syllabus.

James Edwards
08-13-2008, 09:41 AM
Probably simple taisabaki. You need that for all techniques :D You can even apply the principle to other martial arts as well.

As with more defined "techniques" I would agree on ikkyo, shihonage, iriminage. Would also add sitting kokyu-ho, standing kokyunage and standing kokyu-ho (as in sokumen iriminage).

As with O sensei, in one of his books (probably "Aikido") there are some good pictures about what he thought was essential techniques. There's also that story of him and his student whom he only taught shihonage since it is apparently the foundation of all aikido techniques.

Mato-san
08-13-2008, 12:25 PM
shihonage done correctly is sacred? Yes, but how many ppl gonna relate to that? Or more importantly accept it! Most systems settle for the aikijujitsu style.

Mato-san
09-03-2008, 06:53 AM
Wish I was taught shihonage by Osensei. What story you referring to James? And who was the lucky student? I have my assumptions.

Suppose you do shihonage like a kotegaishi, you know the kotegaishi that roles back into the fist, now that would work pretty cool I think, not to mention effective. Not sure where that came from.

Flintstone
09-03-2008, 07:12 AM
Suppose you do shihonage like a kotegaishi, you know the kotegaishi that roles back into the fist, now that would work pretty cool I think, not to mention effective. Not sure where that came from.
Not sure I understand this... :confused:

Mato-san
09-03-2008, 07:53 AM
(I am not a huge fan of techniques done in words but)
Ok, take that shihonage and initially be blending and straight onto shoulder, then sliding down the arm with nice 45% (gurai) angle on the footwork toward the wrist (not blocking the yokomenuchi which results in having a collision of force) just mere blending (if you are too much inside it will be a block, if you are too far outside you missed the shoulder) then with perfect timing enter (with the wrist passing straight by uke`s centre) and fold that shihonage straight back into the natural curve of uke`s arm (the direct upside of the elbow) not outside, not inside.... straight DOWN.
Same goes for kotegaishi, a tad bit different but the same principle.

Basically blend with the shoulder not the wrist.

Mato-san
09-03-2008, 08:05 AM
Sorry, above I am referring to yokomenuchi shihonage

Takahama
09-04-2008, 12:28 AM
I've enjoyed reading all the interesting posts on this thread.

I'd like to express my own perspective on the topic, although I don't regard it as either vastly different from, or more correct than any of the others. It is based on my personal experience, and on what I have observed my teachers say and do during regular practice.

At the core of all technique is kokyu ryoku. Correct regular practice of kihon waza aims to develop one's kokyu ryoku, which is a lifetime's work.Training to improve one's kokyu ryoku apparently finishes only when we die. Kokyu ryoku is what fuels all technique.

There are some techniques which lend themselves ideally to the development of kokyu ryoku and so could be considered as the 'core techniques' of aikido. There are three main forms that we repeat. Almost every single class finishes with (and sometimes also begins with) one of these three forms:

- sitting kokyu ho.
- standing kokyu ho (ryo te mochi - two hands grabbing one wrist).
- tenchi nage.

When grabbing the wrist(s), uke is not half-hearted but takes a firm, honest and centered hold. This creates the best conditions to develop and study the use of kokyu ryoku.

When studying ikkyo, irimi nage and shiho nage, the fundemental way of doing so is to employ a firm wrist grab, again to provide an optimum opportunity to develop kokyu ryoku. This builds a solid foundation when it comes to studying shomen uchi, yokomen uchi and tsuki later in the class. The following wrist grabs feature mostly:

- Ai hanmi kosa dori (nana te mochi), ikkyo.
- Ai hanmi kosa dori (nana te mochi), irimi nage.
- Gyaku hanmi kata te dori, shiho nage.

Mato-san
09-22-2008, 12:11 PM
sorry micheal but just grab onto anyone who knows and like I said scratch and sniff

Mato-san
09-22-2008, 12:13 PM
Aikido is scratch and sniff