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salim
08-05-2008, 11:28 AM
Koshinage (hip throw) allows you turn your opponent while pulling him onto his hips then straightens his knees and throws him over onto his back.

A powerful technique with some many variations that can be applied. Perhaps one of the more aggressive techniques that is not practiced a lot in most Aikido dojos. I came across this interesting video showing variations. How often do you practice this technique in your dojo? Do you use the many variations?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_nJn8nu30

NagaBaba
08-05-2008, 12:04 PM
I don't understand what is aggressive in koshinage? How a technique can be aggressive? - I think only the living beings can be aggressive.

Koshinage is quite nice technique, but ther is nothing exciting about it. We do it in every class, sometimes 3-4 variations. Even the beginners after 2-3 month of practice can do it in very safe way.

It can be done against any attack and from any entry to an attack (i.e. from ikkyo->koshi, nikkyo->koshi, iriminage-> koshi, shihonage->koshi, juji-koshi etc.). So there are infinity of possibilities, at the end we can say that Aikido it is a Koshinage :)

akiy
08-05-2008, 12:16 PM
Perhaps one of the more aggressive techniques that is not practiced a lot in most Aikido dojos
Here's a poll I took a while back that shows that most aikido folks practice koshinage: How comfortable are you in being nage for aikido koshinage? - 12/8/2007
http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=404
Since I was curious, I am asking the following in this week's poll:How often do you practice koshinage (hip throws) at your aikido dojo? - 8/9/2008
Please place your vote in the poll on the home page (http://www.aikiweb.com) in the top right corner.

-- Jun

Lyle Bogin
08-05-2008, 01:07 PM
twice in 8 years...once with sensei Imaizumi himself, and once with a class lead by Warren Wynshaw.

Basia Halliop
08-05-2008, 03:35 PM
I don't see how it's aggressive either... ??

It doesn't even have any joint locks (or rather it can, but need not necessarily), so it's less painful or potentially damaging than a lot of techniques I can think of.

Sure, the fall is slightly different than a more horizontal throw, so you have to learn to fall, but I don't know if it's really worse than any other throw, if the person knows how to throw and/or you know how to fall.

In the USAF it's a required technique (or rather family of techniques) starting at 2 kyu and above, so not learning it isn't really an option. If someone has just started or doesn't know how to fall or whatever, they just practice the entrance and loading but don't follow through with the throw.

dalen7
08-05-2008, 04:13 PM
Its not required in our six kyu system until 3rd kyu.
Personally I would be happy skipping it.

Having said that, its not done that often, thankfully.
I have seen the higher kyus doing it - but in all honesty it seems that extra weight would be on your knee in this hip throw.

My knee has been recovering after getting hurt a couple weeks back...and the idea of techniques that put undue pressure to the knee isnt really my cup of tea. (But some people love these type of moves...suppose people that come to Aikido are more of the 'wrestling type' to begin with...I like boxing, so Aikido was an interesting move for me.)

Peace

dAlen

Aikilove
08-05-2008, 05:38 PM
Properly done you don't lift uke up in koshinage (like one often do, but not always, in judo waza). You just shift the balance over from one side to the other. No lifting and no undue stress on knees. Properly done that is.

/J

Tambreet
08-05-2008, 05:40 PM
We practice it fairly regularly, although it's not a requirement until brown belt. I like it, although I'll admit it's not one of my better techniques.

If there are beginners who can't take the fall, typically they will still attempt to throw as nage, but as uke, we will just load them up on the hip and then let them down.

dalen7
08-06-2008, 01:23 AM
Properly done you don't lift uke up in koshinage (like one often do, but not always, in judo waza). You just shift the balance over from one side to the other. No lifting and no undue stress on knees. Properly done that is.

/J

Thats good to know - I was under the impression it was like picking up and throwing a sack of potatoes. (Sorry couldnt think of a better example.) Well, maybe I can - it looked like a Judo type move...which all of Judo looks like a strain and struggle to me of carrying other peoples weight around. (maybe why I liked boxing?) ;)

Peace

dAlen

grondahl
08-06-2008, 01:49 AM
There are different versions of koshinage, some are more judoesque than others.

Thats good to know - I was under the impression it was like picking up and throwing a sack of potatoes. (Sorry couldnt think of a better example.) Well, maybe I can - it looked like a Judo type move...which all of Judo looks like a strain and struggle to me of carrying other peoples weight around. (maybe why I liked boxing?) ;)

Demetrio Cereijo
08-06-2008, 06:40 AM
Perhaps one of the more aggressive techniques that is not practiced a lot in most Aikido dojos.

Aggresive?...not.

Not practised a lot?... how do you know?

Dieter Haffner
08-06-2008, 06:57 AM
My teacher told me that koshinage is much the same as kokyo nage.
The difference is in the placement of your hips.
With koshinage, you put your hips in front of uke.
And uke 'stumbles' over your deriére instead of doing a nice roll.

salim
08-06-2008, 08:30 AM
Aggresive?...not.

Not practised a lot?... how do you know?

The pain when executed at full speed from a certain height can be painful. Really it depends on the person who is executing the throw. It can knock the breath out of you if you don't brake your fall correctly, even when breaking the fall it stings a little. For that reason and a little research on the net , some people shy away from it. Usually most schools teach Koshinage at slightly higher levels.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-06-2008, 09:51 AM
Pain in Koshinage? You need a nikkyo to yonkyo, with sankyo in the middle, renzoku.
:)

Stefan Stenudd
08-06-2008, 03:53 PM
I came across this interesting video showing variations. How often do you practice this technique in your dojo? Do you use the many variations?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_nJn8nu30
Ooops, that's me. Really, that's just a few examples of koshinage. It can be done in hundreds of quite different ways.

When I was young, I loved doing it (more than having it done to me...), but now I teach it quite rarely. I think any koshinage can reasonably be substituted with a kokyunage, as stated in one of the posts above. On the other hand, koshinage can be done so smoothly that it is in no way more "aggressive" than any other aikido technique.

It is my experience that koshinage is in most dojos (probably including my own) not practiced nearly enough to make it that smooth and comfortable. My first Japanese teacher, Toshikazu Ichimura, did it a lot - and he was very good at it. So did his teacher, Shoji Nishio, who actually told me that he introduced it at Hombu when he started to practice there.
Except for something in the 1935 film, I have not seen footage of Osensei doing koshinage. But I might just be forgetful.

Anyway, it is good to learn, since it is part of the aikido curriculum. But it takes some serious efforts to get reasonably skilled at it - both as tori and as uke.
The downside for tori is that it feels very awkward to do before that skill is reached, and the downside for uke is that ukemi is very uncomfortabel before tori reaches that skill. Kind of a Catch 22.

Aikilove
08-06-2008, 04:06 PM
FWIW. Saito M. sensei said that the founder told him that he loved koshinage, and that he wouldn't mind doing it all day long. There are a great number of basic koshinage from most attacks as Saito taught it. So Nishio might have "reintroduced" it into aikikai but most of his koshinage came from his judo background (even if he aiki-fied them). Still I wonder. Present doshu does them almost identicaly as Saito did...

When it comes to ukemi for koshinage, I personally find it to be an almost fail-safe way to teach high crash-falls. If nage just hold on to that one arm, then uke will land perfectly by default. The only thing one has to remind them of is to tuck that arm in under nage or grab nages arm or gi or something, so uke doesn't panic and stretches for the ground with that arm. That's when accidents happen.

/J

Sy Labthavikul
08-06-2008, 04:31 PM
We don't do koshinage at my dojo nearly as often as I'd like. Its just fun! The general consensus though is that it is a technique that is easily countered if you don't sufficiently distract uke with atemi or whatever first: you ARE basically turning your back to uke at one point, however short, so his attention better be elsewhere.

For ukemi we were taught to reach around nage with our free hand and grab his gi's lapel, so that it provides a pivot point to rotate around and ensuring you properly flip and land on a shoulder/side/better padded body part rather than your head, wrist, elbow, etc. The act of reaching around nage to grab also simulates uke's natural response to what nage's doing: he's gonna try to bear hug uke from behind.

Janet Rosen
08-06-2008, 07:56 PM
If there are beginners who can't take the fall, typically they will still attempt to throw as nage, but as uke, we will just load them up on the hip and then let them down.
{rant mode on}
This is the thing that has always bugged me about how it is taught: if it is not really meant to be a technique based on having to carry uke's weight, then why the heck is it considered valuable or right to teach people to do the technique that way???? If, as the judo folks keep telling me, the ukemi can be really easily taught and is no big deal, why do we make it a big deal and then mess up the technique by turning it into a static "load up uke" thing?
{rant mode off}

Stefan Stenudd
08-07-2008, 06:38 AM
If, as the judo folks keep telling me, the ukemi can be really easily taught and is no big deal, why do we make it a big deal and then mess up the technique by turning it into a static "load up uke" thing?
Insufficient training ;)

Flintstone
08-07-2008, 06:50 AM
Me myself I don't think it's such an aggresive technique. Like someone stated before, nikyo is way much more aggresive than koshi nage.

Really, I think it's all about fear of heights.

Or maybe by "aggresive" you mean "harmful". Then, yes, certain variations of it can be very harmful if done without a tatami mat under uke's breakfall. Not more than a careless sankyo anyway.

grondahl
08-07-2008, 03:00 PM
I think it´s because most aikido ukemi consists of uke "accepting" the throw rather than actually being thrown. But in koshinage you are actually thrown for real which scares people both as uke and as tori. Those who train judo get used to actually being thrown from the very start...

{rant mode on}If, as the judo folks keep telling me, the ukemi can be really easily taught and is no big deal, why do we make it a big deal and then mess up the technique by turning it into a static "load up uke" thing?

Basia Halliop
08-07-2008, 04:20 PM
I think it's just so you get a feel for where on your body they are supposed to be in contact with, and how to enter and set up the technique, what your posture and so on are supposed to be. Plus, as you're learning if you do it less than ideally you may end up with more of their weight on you then you're 'supposed to', so in that sense learning how could help avoid injury (e.g. to your back). At least that's what it seems like to me. In any case, I've found the exercise helpful.

Bryan Sproles
08-08-2008, 01:13 AM
I think it´s because most aikido ukemi consists of uke "accepting" the throw rather than actually being thrown. But in koshinage you are actually thrown for real which scares people both as uke and as tori. Those who train judo get used to actually being thrown from the very start...

When I was doing JuJitsu, koshinage was one of our 10 basic techniques from white -> yellow/green belt. It was taught more as a Judo-type throw (nage pulls uke in while spinning in to pull him over the hip.)

Nearly every koshinage I've seen in an Aikido dojo is from ryote tori, and has the uke coming around behind nage, with nage kinda sticking his butt out for uke to fall over. I've also almost never seen anyone *not* wearing a hakama performing it.

The fall for koshinage itself is actually not that bad if you're even moderately good at taking ukemi.

Now, ippon seoi nage (one armed shoulder throw - another of our basics in JuJitsu) was a *really* scary fall to take at the beginning, because taking the fall, your body almost rotates 180 degrees forward, and you *have* to tuck your head. For the beginners, we would load them up and let them fall off the side of the back, which was a little easier (but still kinda scary until you got used to it.)

-Bryan

grondahl
08-08-2008, 04:02 AM
Nearly every koshinage I've seen in an Aikido dojo is from ryote tori, and has the uke coming around behind nage, with nage kinda sticking his butt out for uke to fall over. I've also almost never seen anyone *not* wearing a hakama performing it.

In the iwama tradition we do several variations on koshinage, except the "koshinage specific"-entries from different attacks we also do it from more or less every ikkyo and shihonage entry. And sometimes from juji gatame.


Now, ippon seoi nage (one armed shoulder throw - another of our basics in JuJitsu) was a *really* scary fall to take at the beginning, because taking the fall, your body almost rotates 180 degrees forward, and you *have* to tuck your head. For the beginners, we would load them up and let them fall off the side of the back, which was a little easier (but still kinda scary until you got used to it.)

I have dabbled some in goshindo (a swedish light-mma system, hard contact to the body but with semi contact to the head), in one class a judo instructor made a class with lots of beginners do ippon seionage without problems. He did not even mention the ukemi, just focusing on the throw. No injuries and people did not even seemed to think that it was a big deal.

Aikilove
08-08-2008, 04:47 AM
Yes, Peter, but in ippon seionage nage controls the arm, and forces uke around in a "safe" spin. In many aikido koshinage, nage don't control "that" arm and uke has to make sure it's out-of-the-way and not between the mat and ukes weight.

That said, done right I still think koshinage is one of the safest and easiest way to train high break falls.

/J

justin
08-08-2008, 05:13 AM
heres a good video I think anyway of how the technique rolls over your hips instead of taking the pressure directly onto your knees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-FRjEfP94s&feature=related

rob_liberti
08-08-2008, 05:25 AM
I teach beginners to do koshinage all the time. I load them up, walk around with them, and let them down extremely gently. I do it a lot when teaching that technique so they get the idea that lining up your structure is more important than the uke going splat.

Let's face it. There is a lot of aikido out there that rush through the beginning and middle of techniques just to get the big dramatic/ego-satisfying ending. Koshinage tends to engender that issue to a more hyperbolic degree which works against the more desireable goal of unification with both people add to the overall movement.

My opinion of koshinage is that there are 2 spirals at work going on at the same time. One of the spirals is going parallel to the floor around nage, and the other is going perpendicular to the floor (up near nage, out and over and down uke, and back up nage).

The first toruble is getting the unification happening to some degree.

The next trouble with beginners is getting them to stand with enough basic structure to support someone else on their hip (assuming they are not going to master the 2 spirals right away).

The last trouble with many aikidoka is to get them to not completely finish spiral 1 before starting spiral 2. You have to be able to walk AND chew gum at the same time.

Really, these issues are the main issue with most of what I see being practiced at the "ha" level of aikido. Koshinage just makes it a bit more obvious.

There are some koshinages I avoid teaching. There is 1 in particular that when I take ukemi I find myself having to change how I'm holding on to nage 3 times to stay safe. I can't teach that safely to someone who doesn't have pretty good body skills built up. I also avoid teaching shihonage koshinage as I have never been able to determine any real value in it at all. Shihonage is interesting enough; why add extra danger for new people for lessons they could have gotten much more safely from other throws...

Rob

grondahl
08-08-2008, 07:01 AM
Yes, Peter, but in ippon seionage nage controls the arm, and forces uke around in a "safe" spin. In many aikido koshinage, nage don't control "that" arm and uke has to make sure it's out-of-the-way and not between the mat and ukes weight.

Then you start with the ones that allows you to control uke all the way ;)

On a serious note: If teaching beginners ukemi for koshinage, I usually start with throwing them in an "O Goshi"- like hipthrow and after that let them take ukemi for regular koshinage.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm


That said, done right I still think koshinage is one of the safest and easiest way to train high break falls.


Agreed.

Ron Tisdale
08-08-2008, 10:52 AM
Then you start with the ones that allows you to control uke all the way ;)

On a serious note: If teaching beginners ukemi for koshinage, I usually start with throwing them in an "O Goshi"- like hipthrow and after that let them take ukemi for regular koshinage.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm


In fact, some styles of aikido call that koshinage...that is the basic way they train the waza.

Best,
Ron (I like that one, myself...)

CNYMike
08-08-2008, 12:25 PM
Koshinage (hip throw) allows you turn your opponent while pulling him onto his hips then straightens his knees and throws him over onto his back.

A powerful technique with some many variations that can be applied. Perhaps one of the more aggressive techniques that is not practiced a lot in most Aikido dojos. I came across this interesting video showing variations. How often do you practice this technique in your dojo? Do you use the many variations?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_nJn8nu30

Our dojo doesn't do it very often, and I don't think it appears on any tests until second kyu or higher (Thank God).

As a technique, I don't like it because it assumes your attacker isn't significantly bigger than you, yet there's no way you could do it in that situation. You'd have to use something else. From a training perspective, I think it's not basic in Aikido for the simple reason that you will be hitting the mat dozens of times during the class anyway, and doing it from a high fall for the better part of an hour would be hard on anybody. It's one thing to be thrown to the mat and then grapple; it's another to be thrown that way fifty times in a row.

Makes me glad I've never been tested, because I don't like it. And given that I'm a little heavier than most in the dojo, they're probably glad I don't like it! ;)

Basia Halliop
08-08-2008, 04:01 PM
As a technique, I don't like it because it assumes your attacker isn't significantly bigger than you

How so? Do you mean taller or heavier?

yet there's no way you could do it in that situation

Do you mean there's no way you could do it if they _are_ near your size or if they aren't?

From a training perspective, I think it's not basic in Aikido for the simple reason that you will be hitting the mat dozens of times during the class anyway, and doing it from a high fall for the better part of an hour would be hard on anybody. It's one thing to be thrown to the mat and then grapple; it's another to be thrown that way fifty times in a row.

I think it partly just depends who's throwing you as well as on your own falls. I am finding the more I practice the fall the less uncomfortable it's gradually getting to be. I think it was one of my least favourite falls at first, though.

I've been working on koshinage lately and I think I mainly just like it 'cause it's so fun to do...

CNYMike
08-08-2008, 05:46 PM
How so? Do you mean taller or heavier?


Mostly heavier. There seem to be some things in Aikido that assume you and your partner are about the same size. The back stretch is one of them. Koshi Nage seems to be the other one. If the other person is too heavy, it wouldn't be a good first choice.


Do you mean there's no way you could do it if they _are_ near your size or if they aren't?


Aren't.

Having said that, IIRC, Best Aikido 2 shows some koshi nages as variations of other techniques. So I suppose if you're on your way to doing one thing and get stuck or miscalculate, you have to run with what you can do, and koshi nage might be one of them. But I still don't like it.


I think it partly just depends who's throwing you as well as on your own falls. I am finding the more I practice the fall the less uncomfortable it's gradually getting to be. I think it was one of my least favourite falls at first, though.

I've been working on koshinage lately and I think I mainly just like it 'cause it's so fun to do...

I've stopped doing the back stretch because even when I do it the liftee side properly, I keep crunching my partners. I'm just a lot heavier than most of the people I train with. I see the same problem with koshi nage. Of course, it's on some of the upper tests, so I can't avoid it forever. But I'll have to lose weight and/or improve my ukemi radically --- and it needs work already -- to get there.

Basia Halliop
08-12-2008, 09:40 AM
But I'll have to lose weight and/or improve my ukemi radically --- and it needs work already -- to get there.

Both good goals anyway - so maybe it'll be a good motivator :). Good luck.