Instructors of low rank

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[what's my ip?]

Just wondering...
How do you respond when you outrank the person teaching a class? By a lot! What if everyone in the class outranks the person teaching? Just wondering if there's some hidden resentment or indignation, but dojo etiquette prevents you from showing it?
This happens here sometimes when an instructor is going to miss a class and asks a student to sub, and chooses a particular person that is always in class and is an avid and zealous student. But the person is very low in rank, a relative newbie. I figure the reasons that that person is chosen to teach are reliability and passion for Aikido.
Personally, I don't mind. Although I have noticed that it imparts a bit of over-confidence in his/her ability that should probably be tempered. But then I'm a big believer in humility.
My question is, how would you respond?

[gdandscompserv]

I would shutup and train.:D

[Kevin Leavitt]

But then I'm a big believer in humility.

Thus...your answer.

[Dan Rubin]

How do you respond....

To whom? To what?

[Aiki Teacher]

In our dojo, if sensei ask me to teach and a higher ranked student shows up for class, I generally hand over the class to him.

[Janet Rosen]

But if sensei specifically designates a lower ranked student, that's the decision.

[mickeygelum]

With all due respect, are you upset or jealous of the person appointed to teach class? I believe that I already have the answer..as you have posted anonymously.

I must echo that of the previous posters...SHUT UP AND TRAIN!

Mickey

[raul rodrigo]

If I was given by my sensei authority to teach a class, and someone senior to me shows up, I will still teach the class. It is the sensei's decision who will teach. If the senior doesn't like it, he can train somewhere else. I once chose to do otherwise, and was reprimanded for it afterward.

[what's my ip?]

I once chose to do otherwise, and was reprimanded for it afterward.

Paul, just to be clear, do you mean that you were asked to teach a class, but handed it over to someone senior to you, and then you were reprimanded for doing so?

[Ron Tisdale]

I think that is exactly what he means. If my instructor calls someone and asks them to teach, I don't care what rank they are. Or what rank I am. I came to train, so I train. If they choose to ask me to help, fine. If not, fine again. If they ask me to teach, I decline politely, and offer any assistence OTHER THAN taking over the class.

When the instructor appoints someone, regardless of rank, that is who is in charge. Period.

Best,
Ron

[SeiserL]

IMHO, they are the teacher, its their class.
What's the question?
Train.

[CitoMaramba]

I've always learned something new in every class I've been to, even when the rank of the teacher was nominally lower than mine.

[what's my ip?]

With all due respect, are you upset or jealous of the person appointed to teach class? I believe that I already have the answer..as you have posted anonymously.

Mickey,
No, my anonymity does not mean that I'm jealous or upset. Just that I want to be anonymous. I am not personally bothered that a 6th or 5th Kyu is teaching. I have a great time. I do, in fact, shut up and train; and I enjoy it.
There are plenty of Dan rank around here, as well as Ichi Kyu and Ni Kyu. No one is outwardly or visibly upset, or even bothered in the least. But there are some awkward moments. That's why I thought it would be interesting to hear a discussion about it.
I did ask, "how would you respond?", but I realize now that that question is leading, as though I want someone to say they would be upset. Forgive me for that. I didn't mean that.
Secondarily, though, I wonder how it affects the 6th/5th Kyu who is teaching. Is this a good thing for them to be placed in that position?
What about the dojo's Kyu who have been training longer? Does Sensei run the risk of losing students who are struggling to learn - will they be discouraged and quit?

[Peter Goldsbury]

Just wondering...
How do you respond when you outrank the person teaching a class? By a lot! What if everyone in the class outranks the person teaching? Just wondering if there's some hidden resentment or indignation, but dojo etiquette prevents you from showing it?
This happens here sometimes when an instructor is going to miss a class and asks a student to sub, and chooses a particular person that is always in class and is an avid and zealous student. But the person is very low in rank, a relative newbie. I figure the reasons that that person is chosen to teach are reliability and passion for Aikido.
Personally, I don't mind. Although I have noticed that it imparts a bit of over-confidence in his/her ability that should probably be tempered. But then I'm a big believer in humility.
My question is, how would you respond?

Hello,

Have you thought of discussing this with the instructor who is going to miss the class? The fact that "everyone outranks the person teaching" the class suggests a number of possibilities: that the instructor had a definite purpose in allowing such a low-ranked person to teach, or that he did not trust the higher-ranked students, or that he wrongly placed too much faith in the capabilities of the person he asked to teach.

In my opinion, you have not given enough information for a reasoned judgment.

Best wishes,

[Joe McParland]

Secondarily, though, I wonder how it affects the 6th/5th Kyu who is teaching. Is this a good thing for them to be placed in that position?
What about the dojo's Kyu who have been training longer? Does Sensei run the risk of losing students who are struggling to learn - will they be discouraged and quit?

What if...? What if...?

What if the junior student doesn't get that boost of confidence when he needs it or the reward when he deserves it?

What if the junior student doesn't take those initial steps on the path to become a teacher?

What if the junior student doesn't learn the lesson that he is already and always a teacher simply by virtue of his practice?

What if the senior student never learns the lessons regarding ego?

What if the junior student doesn't learn the true meaning of rank?

What if the senior student doesn't learn the true meaning of rank?

What if the dojo gains more students by virtue of the training method and attention to the development of junior members?

What if the senior students took this model forward someday when they have their own classes and schools?

What if ...? What if ...?

So silly, what if.

If your body is at practice, it would behoove you to have your mind there too.

[RoyK]

Depends on what type of teaching the person does. If the young instructor follows suit with the regular sensei and doesn't do anything "outside the box" then I wouldn't mind if a 5th kyu would give the class.
If, however, the person would use the opportunity to convey his ideas and commentaries on techniques on the expense of my training time, I would be pretty pissed.

[what's my ip?]

Hi Professor Goldsbury,

Actually, it's just a matter of convenience. For a number of reasons, such as time constraints and inability to make contact, other instructors cannot be scheduled.
Please help me provide enough information for a reasoned judgment. What questions do you have?

[what's my ip?]

What if...? What if...?

What if the junior student doesn't get that boost of confidence when he needs it or the reward when he deserves it?

What if the junior student doesn't take those initial steps on the path to become a teacher?

What if the junior student doesn't learn the lesson that he is already and always a teacher simply by virtue of his practice?

What if the senior student never learns the lessons regarding ego?

What if the junior student doesn't learn the true meaning of rank?

What if the senior student doesn't learn the true meaning of rank?

What if the dojo gains more students by virtue of the training method and attention to the development of junior members?

What if the senior students took this model forward someday when they have their own classes and schools?

What if ...? What if ...?

So silly, what if.

If your body is at practice, it would behoove you to have your mind there too.

Great answer, Joe! Thanks!

[Joe McParland]

If, however, the person would use the opportunity to convey his ideas and commentaries on techniques on the expense of my training time, I would be pretty pissed.

Spoken and heard freely here in a supportive forum where your opinion and your understanding behind it, at whatever level, are valued.

How ironic. :p

[NagaBaba]

5th kyu shouldn't teach a class, if there are other students with 1 and 2nd kyu around, that's for sure. It was clearly wrong decision of chief instructor.Such situation is not good for a dojo from pedagogical and technical point of view. Particularly it harms this poor guy, who had to teach a class.
If such mistake is repeated, it will lead to a real disaster.

[raul rodrigo]

Paul, just to be clear, do you mean that you were asked to teach a class, but handed it over to someone senior to you, and then you were reprimanded for doing so?

That's exactly what happened.

R

[Pauliina Lievonen]

I can't imagine this happening in our dojo really. I think a better solution would be that the easy to reach lower rank is asked to be responsible for opening doors and making sure the dojo is locked up afterwards, and asked to hand the class to the highest rank that happens to show up.

That said. if my teacher did ask a lower rank to lead a class for some reason, I'd shut up and train and show a good attitude about it to support the person leading the class. It's sensei's dojo, his rules.

kvaak
Pauliina

[DonMagee]

I've seen students I've trained in judo do better then students trained by one of my former teachers who is many ranks higher then I.

Some people have a gift when it comes to teaching (not saying I have it). Perhaps the instructor realizes this person will make a great teacher and wants to give him the experience.

[Aikibu]

Wow...In our Dojo everyone pretty much helps everyone else so what does it matter if one outranks the other? I mean I am there to make a connection with everyone right?

William Hazen

[Walter Martindale]

When I was a gokyu in one dojo I was asked to teach some classes. Our sensei was yondan, and at gokyu I was the only person who had any kyu or anything other than sensei. It was a NEW dojo, but I also carried with me a judo shodan and several years working as a professional coach in a "performance" (as in, against the clock) sport.
I didn't feel that confident leading Aikido stuff beyond what I thought I was beginning to know, but we were working on ukemi, fundamentals, ukemi, and fundamentals. And more ukemi.
(Sensei also had sankyu in judo and nidan at the time in kendo, and only let me loose on the practice because a) he couldn't make it, and b) I could beat him in judo-style newaza...)
But - it has to be looked at case-by-case. The sensei in your situation must have had his or her reasons. One of which being - you learn so much when you try to teach... Another being - he/she may have seen something in you and it's a test... It may also have been a test of the other students in the dojo to see how they'd react - perhaps some need to pull their necks in a little?
However - the response, as long as you're not doing anything out of the ordinary, should be for the higher ranks to take in what you're working on at THEIR level - not necessarily yours. Basics is still basics - the people who are best at any skill are best at the basics.
W

[mickeygelum]

Just out of curiosity, could your Sensei have been testing all of you?

Has your Sensei inquired, of you or others, about that period of instruction?

What was the reaction of everyone else?

It was not uncommon for Stevens Shihan to put a kyu-rank in front of the class, namely me, and direct them on what to address, then the higher kyu-ranks and dan-grades would give constructive criticism. To observe the student instructing, is self-evaluation of communication. Are your students understanding what you are teaching them?

Your original post appeared to be more emotion-laden, I apologize for the mis-interpretation.

Train well,

Mickey

[Mark Uttech]

'Acceptance' is a strong trait to develop in the dojo. The designated 'sensei' of a particular class, is simply the instructor of that class. It may be a learning experience for him/her. It is actually a learning experience for everyone.

In gassho,

Mark

[eyrie]

I agree with Peter Goldsbury. There isn't sufficient contextual information given for anyone here to provide anything other than a personal opinion.

However, irrespective of your instructor's motivations and reasoning for allowing a lower-rank to "take" the class, the generally appropriate response would be to "just shut up and train".

[NagaBaba]

However, irrespective of your instructor's motivations and reasoning for allowing a lower-rank to "take" the class, the generally appropriate response would be to "just shut up and train".

......or simply go home to have a beer? ;) :D

[eyrie]

... usually AFTER - along with any whingin' and bitchin'... um.. I mean "discussion and feedback" :D

[Nick P.]

5th kyu shouldn't teach a class, if there are other students with 1 and 2nd kyu around, that's for sure. It was clearly wrong decision of chief instructor.Such situation is not good for a dojo from pedagogical and technical point of view. Particularly it harms this poor guy, who had to teach a class.
If such mistake is repeated, it will lead to a real disaster.

With respect, I disagree. Part of any keiko is to follow instructions; teacher says do irimi-nage, you dont stand there and say "No, kote-gaeshi would work best." (of course you may think that, just dont do that).

I personally know of a 6th dan who teachs, by his own admission, a student who is his senior in years of training and ability though not in rank. Shihan said teach class, so the 6th dan student does as he is told.

Beer: agree, but after, not instead of, training.

[RoyK]

Spoken and heard freely here in a supportive forum where your opinion and your understanding behind it, at whatever level, are valued.

How ironic. :p

The difference is that you don't pay to read other people's form posts, and you can always choose not to read (or skimp through) long posts.
I had to sit through one class where a kyu ranked student lectured more than 50% of the class's time, and of course you don't get to argue back, or press the ignore button. You just have to sit in seiza, and take it with a smile. Well I guess that's sort of a mental practice too.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hi Professor Goldsbury,

Actually, it's just a matter of convenience. For a number of reasons, such as time constraints and inability to make contact, other instructors cannot be scheduled.
Please help me provide enough information for a reasoned judgment. What questions do you have?

One of the problems in an anonymous forum such as this is that the information given should not allow anyone to know who you are. Which is fine. The down side is that the information given sometimes does not really allow any one to make a reasoned judgment. In this case, one extreme is 'Shut up and train'; 'Find another dojo,' is the other.

The chief instructor is boss in his/her own dojo, but it would be very odd if the chief instructor consistently and systematically passed over all the senior ranks and asked the lowest ranked student to teach. I know that if I did this in my own dojo when I was absent, the members would quickly start looking for another dojo.

Hence my question: if it is of concern to you, have you talked to the instructor? If it is not of any concern, well, I was curious why you bothered to start the thread.

[Joe McParland]

The difference is that you don't pay to read other people's form posts, and you can always choose not to read (or skimp through) long posts.
I had to sit through one class where a kyu ranked student lectured more than 50% of the class's time, and of course you don't get to argue back, or press the ignore button. You just have to sit in seiza, and take it with a smile. Well I guess that's sort of a mental practice too.

You can stand on your head right now, right where you are!

... or you can want to stand on you head and be aggravated that you shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't be allowed to, or whatever else.

But if you find for whatever the reason that this isn't the time or place to stand on your head, then is it really worth the aggravation to dwell on wanting to be in a situation other than the one you are in?

If that's the practice that day, then that's the practice. Are you in or out? If you want to know why it was that way, then chat with the boss who created the situation. The conversation will likely be more refreshing than carrying around the question and the resentment.

[ChrisHein]

Some talented 5th kyus have more ability then udansha.

Some shodans have been shodans for 20 years.

Some magnificent Aikidoka refuse to test.

Some Sandans will die sandans for political reasons.

Some 6th, 7th and 8th dans really arn't that good.

Testing is testing, teaching is teaching, and rank is not all it's cracked up to be.

If a teacher has something to offer you, it really doesn't matter if they don't have any black belts, or 10.

Equally if they don't have anything to offer you, it doesn't matter if it's the highest ranking Aikidoka in the world, they won't teach you anything.

[what's my ip?]

Prof. Goldsbury,

Perhaps this thread doesn't quite meet Akiy's standard for instituting an anonymous forum; but I would not have posted it otherwise, so perhaps it does.

At any rate, it has generated banter, repartee, and controversy. And that's why I started it, really. I just wanted to throw a stone into the pool to watch the ripples. I didn't expect to fall in.

There are 3 classes every day on average. A morning class and 2 evening classes on weekdays; plus several classes on weekends. There are different instructors for most of those classes. The particular class I'm talking about does NOT involve the chief instructor. I believe that the main reason it happens in one class is because the instructor simply is unable to find anyone else, and because the 6th/5th Kyu person is passionate about Aikido and reliable - being attendant in nearly every class.

It has happened on more than one occasion, and, as most of the respondents in this forum have said, everyone is happy to train. No problem.

But there are awkward moments. Such as lining up before class, and the usual instructor is not present, and the Dan in attendance don't know that 6th/5th Kyu is going to be instructing... Or during class when 6th/5th Kyu interrupts a Nage and Uke to make technical observations...

It was these awkward moments that made me think of proposing this thread. The usual dojo etiquette of deference toward the higher rank is undone, and catches us momentarily off-balance. But as this discussion developed I thought of other ramifications: namely, the affect it has on the self-confidence of other Kyu; and on the ego of this person chosen to teach over them.

I haven't spoken to the instructor involved because when I started this I didn't think it was a problem. I just wanted to know what everyone thought. My first words were, "Just wondering..." But if others here think it is a problem; and can make a case that I should bring it to the instructor's attention, then I will.

Whether a reasoned judgment or a personal opinion can be made of this doesn't matter. Either is fine. But let me quote from Mark Uttecht to define how I feel, "'Acceptance' is a strong trait to develop in the dojo. The designated 'sensei' of a particular class, is simply the instructor of that class. It may be a learning experience for him/her. It is actually a learning experience for everyone."

[NagaBaba]

With respect, I disagree. Part of any keiko is to follow instructions; teacher says do irimi-nage, you dont stand there and say "No, kote-gaeshi would work best." (of course you may think that, just dont do that).

I personally know of a 6th dan who teachs, by his own admission, a student who is his senior in years of training and ability though not in rank. Shihan said teach class, so the 6th dan student does as he is told.

Beer: agree, but after, not instead of, training.
Hello Nick,
In this case we have 5th kyu 'instructor' :eek: This guy don't even know how to walk correctly, everything what he does is wrong even if he is very gifted and has black belt in judo/tkd/MMA whatever....
So you can't compare it to the relation shihan-6th dan instructor.
Believe me a beer is the only option in such situation.

[Nick P.]

Sorry, still dont agree Szczepan.

The head teacher chose him over everyone else; the relation between shihan and 6th dan is the same as the one mentioned by the original post, that is to say, the one(s) between teacher and student(s). Perhaps you and I might not LIKE it, but who are we QUESTION or DOUBT it? Remember, we too are the students of the teacher, so to say the teacher is incorrect is to say we know better than the teacher (again, we might think that, but I for one would never voice that opinion aloud).

Personally, I would rather attend class given by anyone, even un-ranked and THEN drink my beer than to simply go drink beer with no class at all....if there was no other choice in the matter.

>note< Hard liquor is equally acceptable ;)

[lifeafter2am]

Some talented 5th kyus have more ability then udansha.

Some shodans have been shodans for 20 years.

Some magnificent Aikidoka refuse to test.

Some Sandans will die sandans for political reasons.

Some 6th, 7th and 8th dans really arn't that good.

Testing is testing, teaching is teaching, and rank is not all it's cracked up to be.

If a teacher has something to offer you, it really doesn't matter if they don't have any black belts, or 10.

Equally if they don't have anything to offer you, it doesn't matter if it's the highest ranking Aikidoka in the world, they won't teach you anything.

Well stated!

[Daniel Blanco]

respectfully the highest ranking student should be teaching the class, thats the purpose of having a ranking system.

[lifeafter2am]

respectfully the highest ranking student should be teaching the class, thats the purpose of having a ranking system.

Although normally I would agree, again, rank does not translate to skill. Although it should in a perfect world, it does not in the real world.

:)

[Nick P.]

Riddle me this.

What is the difference between the head instructor...

-Cancelling class
-Asking his teacher to teach class
-Asking a visiting sensei to teach class
-Asking a visiting sensei from another art to teach class
-Asking the most senior student to teach class
-Asking the most junior student to teach class
-Asking a randomly selected student to teach class

Answer: none.

You trust your teacher to do the right thing as they see fit, or dont you? If you dont, why would you continue to show up for class and learn from them? This concept supersedes any and all rules we might think do or dont apply. It is a fundamental pillar of not just Aikido training, but all learning.

The input and control you have, as the student, is simple: show up to learn, or not.

Now, where is that drink we spoke of earlier. I could really use it about now...

[Joe McParland]

respectfully the highest ranking student should be teaching the class, thats the purpose of having a ranking system.

That is a very bold statement. Perhaps it would best be restated as "that's one possible purpose of having a ranking system."

In order to test an nine-year-old child for a kyu test, I asked him to run the class, from bowing in, running warm ups, basic exercises, ukemi, and then demonstrating his techniques---picking an uke from the line, demonstrating as nage and as uke---and then asking the class to practice with a clap of his hands. He joined the practice then, and I wondered about. I kept close watch on him and the time, letting him know quietly when it was time to send the students back to the line and to demonstrate the next technique.

The students range from 8 to a bit over 40. Everybody is comfortable with this and enjoys it because that's what I teach them.

If I don't have a varied warm-up in mind, I'll ask for a volunteer. It's hard sometimes to catch which kid's hand goes up first! I'll generally ask students to demonstrate techniques to their peers when they're getting close to test time and the technique is one from their own requirements. They're free to pick a peer or even to pick me as an uke for their demonstration---no problem. After all, when I demonstrate, I'll pick an uke, perform the technique from different angles so everybody has a fair idea of what's happening, and then give my uke a chance to toss me around a bit with that technique.

An interesting exchange happened once during a warm up: A child was leading and went off track from the typical order of wrist stretching sequence. The child's mother interrupted him suggesting the "proper order" and left the child a bit confused and on the spot. I interjected: "There is no fixed proper warm up in aikido. As you progress and work with different instructors, you'll see that everyone does things different ways. Always respect and follow who is at the front, regardless of what you think you know."

[That's not to say that if a kid gets lost that the audience won't give hints about what to do next. There are also plenty of occasions to remind the children to respect their elders and their ranking peers, etc. That was just one relevant example.]

So, what am I doing wrong? ;)

I think Ron Ragusa recently wrote an AikiWeb blog entry about knowledge getting in the way of learning. I recommend everyone giving it a view.

[cudbeworse]

maybe the answer is for you to step up and offer to teach since you're higher ranked.

your instructor might be relieved that someone more knowledgeable is making the effort.

[Lan Powers]

maybe the answer is for you to step up and offer to teach since you're higher ranked.

your instructor might be relieved that someone more knowledgeable is making the effort.

Privately, perhaps, but DON'T pipe up and offer to take his place in public.
I'd just train....
Lan

[Mary Eastland]

If I specifically asked someone to teach class in our absense I would want that person to teach....I don't care who else showed up...
Mary

[eyrie]

I believe that the main reason it happens in one class is because the instructor simply is unable to find anyone else, and because the 6th/5th Kyu person is passionate about Aikido and reliable - being attendant in nearly every class..... But there are awkward moments. Such as lining up before class, and the usual instructor is not present, and the Dan in attendance don't know that 6th/5th Kyu is going to be instructing... I don't get it... the instructor can't find anyone else besides this person, but higher ranking students are turning up to the class??? You bring up the rank hierarchy, but it seems to me that if none of the senior ranking people turning up know what's going on, it suggests to me either a communication issue within the ranks of your hierarchy or that the senior ranks aren't actively involved in the dojo operations, or something else is happening within your dojo that is hierarchically, organizationally or even culturally dysfunctional.

Or during class when 6th/5th Kyu interrupts a Nage and Uke to make technical observations... It was these awkward moments that made me think of proposing this thread. The usual dojo etiquette of deference toward the higher rank is undone, and catches us momentarily off-balance. But as this discussion developed I thought of other ramifications: namely, the affect it has on the self-confidence of other Kyu; and on the ego of this person chosen to teach over them. Let's leave the (perceived) ego issue aside for the moment... because, IF it were the case, I would consider this a management failure on the part of the instructor and the hierarchy of your dojo. I don't know what the specifics are, and why a low-rank kyu grade is allowed to take the class unsupervised. But if your senior ranks aren't stepping up to the plate and getting involved in the administrative, operational and teaching aspects of the dojo, so much so, that the instructor cannot get anyone else besides this person to take the class, then, to me, something is very wrong. And if the senior ranks aren't taking responsibility to nurture and develop the sempai/kohai relationship, I don't think it gives them any right to "pull rank". Never mind about any dojo etiquette of deference to rank being undone. From what you're saying I don't see it happening now.

I haven't spoken to the instructor involved because when I started this I didn't think it was a problem. I just wanted to know what everyone thought. My first words were, "Just wondering..." But if others here think it is a problem; and can make a case that I should bring it to the instructor's attention, then I will. My question to you is, and you don't have to answer, where are you within the hierarchy and do YOU feel it is an issue? Do YOU feel strongly enough that it is an issue? Does your hierarchical rank or even personal relationship with the instructor carry any weight and influence? It doesn't matter what anyone here thinks... we're not there and we don't know what the full context or culture of your dojo situation is.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Perhaps this thread doesn't quite meet Akiy's standard for instituting an anonymous forum; but I would not have posted it otherwise, so perhaps it does.

At any rate, it has generated banter, repartee, and controversy. And that's why I started it, really. I just wanted to throw a stone into the pool to watch the ripples. I didn't expect to fall in.

I see. This pretty much ends the conversation, at least from me.

[akiy]

Thread moved from the Anonymous forum into the Teaching forum as I believe it falls outside of the intended aim of the Anonymous forum.

-- Jun

[Daniel Blanco]

The rank system is in place for a REASON,

[Nick P.]

The rank system is in place for a REASON,

Agreed. So why did the head instructor choose to exercise their own judgment and not follow it so closely? The reasons for doing so must have outweighed the reasons for sticking with it.

If we take a 5th kyu student with one year of training and promote them to shodan, does anyone really believe they are further along in their training than the 1st kyu with 6 years of training (all things being equal, not some prodigy vs. less-than-average student)? Yes, the new shodan is now higher in rank, but both those students, and everyone who trains with either of them, would know where they each are on their paths.

Rank is important, and it is of no, little or questionable value at the same time.

Demote me back to unranked-kyu from my current nidan, and nothing really changes in my technique or training. No rank or title takes away, or adds, to my abilities.

[heathererandolph]

It would be best to treat the instructor with the same respect as you would any other instructor. It's only human to be disappointed, but if you are ever in his shoes you'll appreciate it if the students are watching you show a technique and are excited about being called to uki. If you set a great example for the other students to follow, then you will show a lot of maturity.

I'm not sure why your instructor would have chosen to have a lower level person lead the class. Surely this person has his/her work cut out for them as black belts, not to mention higher ranking black belts, are in the class and will be more judgemental than a class of lower belts!

[lifeafter2am]

The rank system is in place for a REASON,

What about people who don't want to test? They don't have anything to teach any of us?
:)

[Zach Trent]

Excuse me if I misunderstand, but aren't we talking about an instructor asking someone to teach one class for a special occassion vs. giving a regular time slot to a low ranking student?

Those seem like very different situations. As a non-kyu holding student I would feel a little odd about taking a set class from someone one belt above me when there are higher ranks in the dojo....

But if I knew it was just one class, a special occassion, I would probably have a lot of fun with it- especially if it were a nine year old! That sounds like an incredible way to prepare for testing- I think it is a wonderful idea.

But giving that nine- year old one of your regular scheduled classes..wouldn't that be a bit awkward for the other students? :)

Though, if I were learning a whole lot from said class- I hope I could overlook the rank difference! I guess if they were just uber awesome I could overlook it- tough to say when you consider ego, dojo norms and ettiquette, and Sensei's goals/reasons. Though, if I were perfect, ego and Sensei's reasons would not be an issue at all.

This is a challenging scenario for me to think about, personally. Though the beer makes a lot of sense!

[RoyK]

You can stand on your head right now, right where you are!

... or you can want to stand on you head and be aggravated that you shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't be allowed to, or whatever else.

But if you find for whatever the reason that this isn't the time or place to stand on your head, then is it really worth the aggravation to dwell on wanting to be in a situation other than the one you are in?

If that's the practice that day, then that's the practice. Are you in or out? If you want to know why it was that way, then chat with the boss who created the situation. The conversation will likely be more refreshing than carrying around the question and the resentment.

I chose to join the class rather than miss practice, yes. If I had known what was in store for me I probably wouldn't have, but leaving mid-class didn't really feel proper for me to do even though I felt like it's time wasted. I was further aggravated by the fact that he insulted me twice in front of the class, so I suppose not dwelling on the fact that I could be home doing something fun instead of having a crappy time on the mat was hard to do. Keeping a straight face was enough of a struggle.

However, despite this lousy experience, I don't see why lower ranked students shouldn't give class, as long as they stick to something everyone's familiar with and not try to invent the wheel on the spot. I think it'd be even better if the head instructor would tell them that.

[lifeafter2am]

I chose to join the class rather than miss practice, yes. If I had known what was in store for me I probably wouldn't have, but leaving mid-class didn't really feel proper for me to do even though I felt like it's time wasted. I was further aggravated by the fact that he insulted me twice in front of the class, so I suppose not dwelling on the fact that I could be home doing something fun instead of having a crappy time on the mat was hard to do. Keeping a straight face was enough of a struggle.

However, despite this lousy experience, I don't see why lower ranked students shouldn't give class, as long as they stick to something everyone's familiar with and not try to invent the wheel on the spot. I think it'd be even better if the head instructor would tell them that.

Well said right there, well said!

:)

[Joe McParland]

However, despite this lousy experience, I don't see why lower ranked students shouldn't give class, as long as they stick to something everyone's familiar with and not try to invent the wheel on the spot. I think it'd be even better if the head instructor would tell them that.

Well said right there, well said!

Well said or tongue well held---what is the difference?

The issue of dealing with your circumstances---including what you think should be, shouldn't be, could be, couldn't be, should have been, could have been, and so forth---is larger than this one case. It's everyday life for everyone, and people have thought about these situations for a long, long time.

Here's a koan that struck me as similar to where you are now:

Fifth Gate: Hyang Eom's Up A Tree

Master Hyang Eom said, "It is like a man up a tree who is hanging from a branch by his teeth; his hands cannot grasp a bough, his feet cannot touch the tree; he is tied and bound. Another man under the tree asks him, 'Why did Bodhidharma come to China?' If he does not answer, he evades his duty and will be killed. If he answers, he will lose his life.

1. If you are in the tree, how do you stay alive?

http://www.kwanumzen.org/misc/12gates.html

Sounds corny maybe, but does it sound familiar?

For me, the dojo---and aikido in particular, since that's my bent---is a good place to examine these things, and---if you're very lucky---a skillful teacher may force you to face them.

[Mark Uttech]

The rank system is in place for a REASON,

Onegaishimasu. So if a 5th kyu teaches an awful class, is there a ripple in the reason?

In gassho,

Mark

[Bryan Sproles]

I had something similar happen to me during my JuJitsu training. We had multiple white belts on the mat that day, and I was the ranking student at Gokyu (2 belts up from white.)

Our sensei needed to leave and would return, but he told me that until he returned, I was the one in charge. Not long after we started the lesson (I love shiho nage, so I began with that), one of our purple belts came in, but he was fine with me being in charge - just kinda fell in to what we were doing without making a huge fuss about it.

I would say that the only time it might be unwise to allow a lower ranking student to lead the class is if he or she is truly still a beginner - a student who still may not be confident enough in their ability to be able to show a technique because that can lead to injuries.

-Bryan

[Keith Larman]

Geez I'm beginning to think that I just don't take every second of my training nearly seriously enough. I mean, wow, one whole class that didn't result in any major revelations. I'm surprised I didn't catch the story on CNN... Lord, I'm sure glad the planet didn't stop revolving at that very moment of destruction of the cosmic balance! :D In the next few decades of training I fully expect to attend some classes that just weren't all that great. Hopefully I will be able to find the strength to go on after the devastation of having wasted maybe 1/10th of 1% of my total training time in my lifetime. Hopefully I can find it in myself to focus on the 99.9% of the rest of my training instead. :p

Seriously, I've had a couple times I've come home after a class where what I learned was that I have a difference of opinion as how to do a technique. Or that maybe that instructor is just not the instructor for me. But hey, if it's just a rare event, big deal... There's always something to learn.

If the instruction level is consistently poor then why attend at all? If it was a one-time or very rare thing, what's the deal with focusing on something minor like that. Get back on the mat and train some more.

[Janet Rosen]

The original poster did mention that the lower ranked person had been put into the position of teaching because s/he is at least reliable: able to show up consistently.
It struck me that perhaps that is the point the sensei is trying to make? :How is it that apparently the class day/time seems to work well enough that enough folks show up for the class, yet no senior student is able and willing to make the necessary time and energy committment to show up and teach? If it takes a "lowly" lower kyu student to demonstrate that committment, the class is his to teach.
I realize I'm speculating on less than full information but wanted to share this as another possibility.

[giriasis]

I am going to agree with Janet. I think your sensei is trying to make a point about reliability. He knows the 5th kyu will show up so he asks the 5th kyu to teach.

As far as etiquette is concerned here are a few situations I have been in.

First example:

Sensei can't make it that day and calls the dojo. The highest rank on the mat at the time that Sensei calls is a 3rd kyu. He asks 3rd kyu to teach. I was currently ranked 1st kyu at the time, I show up about 25 minutes into class, 3rd kyu asks me if I want to teach, I say, "no, you already started class so please go ahead and finish."

Second example:

Sensei is out sick and had made arrangment for instructors while he is out. Each of us dans and some kyus, are given a time slot to fill in for sensei while he is out sick. Saturday second class, it appears that the instructor is not showing. All the dans stand around and ask each other who will fill in. I volunteer. Right at the time when class is supposed to begin, the selected instructor, a 2nd kyu, shows up. He says, "oh no, you're higher rank, why don't you go ahead and teach. I say, "no, since sensei asked for you to teach you teach." 2nd kyu proceeds to teach.

Third example (just happened today):

I was asked by sensei earlier this week to teach the 2nd class on Saturday. I'm a freshly minted 1st dan. 2nd dan of about 3-4 years shows up. Awkward that I would be teaching a sempai, I ask him to teach. He says, "no, sensei asked you to teach. I showed to take class and train. Please teach." I proceed to teach.

In each of these instances, someone lower ranking was requested by sensei to teach. Each lower ranking person requests that the higher ranking person teach in order to defer to higher rank. However, higher rank person defers to sensei who selected the lower ranked instructor and tells lower ranked person to go ahead and teach.

So the rule in our dojo is if sensei doesn't show up and does not select someone to fill in for him -- The Highest Rank Teaches.

However,

If someone is selected by sensei, that person teaches regardless of who else is higher ranking. Most of the time the lower ranking person will ask the higher ranking to teach, but the higher ranking person still should respect sensei's request and tell the lower ranking person to teach.

That's it. It's nothing personal and no questions asked. Pretty much sensei will ask people to fill in certain classes, he starts from the highest ranking and goes down the list and also considers who might be there that day. In the 1st situation, I was never really reliable to show up on time and on a regular basis enough to be considered to teach. It was nothing personal and the 3rd kyu taught a great class.

If it really bothers you that much you need to talk to your sensei about it in private, but don't just complain come up with some solutions, i.e. offer to help create a list of all the higher ranking folks who would be willing teach and the times they would be available to teach.

[Keith Larman]

Let me give an "amen" to Janet's post. In our dojo we always have an assistant in class. But getting anyone in the yudansha rank to commit to assisting a class seems to be like asking people to pull their own teeth with pliers. But sometimes the enthusiastic kyu ranked student will commit, will be there, and will be a reliable presence. How is it that some of those lower ranked students always seem to have more time to commit to things?

Years ago I was put into the same position fwiw. I was assisting in a kids class then teaching the next class which was advanced kids. The sensei who was to teach the third class, our most advanced adults class warned me that he might not be able to make it. He explicitly told me to teach the advanced adults class should he not make it. I was in the yudansha level, but I was still hesitant to say the least since most of the people who attended back then outranked me considerably. His comment was something along the lines of if they can't make the time to be there regularly they shouldn't be teaching the class. Fortunately for me and my stress level I didn't have to do it. But over the years I've come to understand what he meant very well.

And I've assigned one of my yonkyu the task of teaching a technique next week. I have two goals. The first is to have him think about and prepare to teach -- it is always a learning experience trying to teach something. The second goal is to see how the other students deal with it. Will they show appropriate respect to their sensei (me) and their fellow student (and sempai) to practice earnestly and with sincerity.

[Rafael Martinez]

In our dojo we have a simple etiquette for this situation. First you must understand that the chief instructor asked a specific person to teach. He or she must have a reason for doing so. Whatever the reason all students should respect that decision. So on the day of the class if a higher ranking student arrives the lower rank out of courtesy will ask the senior ranking student to teach. The proper response from the higher ranking student is to decline. This acknowledges solidarity with the chief instructor and promotes harmony within the dojo, the forms have been followed. We also make it a point to only ask the senior most student. This offer is only made to one person for that day. Otherwise we would be working our way down the line.
Finally, it is understood that if the senior student decides to take the class he will have to answer to the chief instructor and explain why he went against his directive.
I hope this helps.

[Dieter Haffner]

All great posts.
But still, a 5th kuy should not be teaching class.

[Nick P.]

All great posts.
But still, a 5th kuy should not be teaching class.

...but who are you prepared to say that to? The chief instructor in your dojo who chose the 5th kyu, everyone in the room on that given day?

If I heard those words uttered from anyone, regardless of rank, I am ashamed to admit I would be stunned at just how arragont (or ignorant) that person is.
But perhaps that is just me....

[Mark Uttech]

Onegaishimasu. I believe it was Koichi Tohei who once said: "what you learn today you can teach tomorrow."

In gassho,

Mark

[Niadh]

All great posts.
But still, a 5th kuy should not be teaching class.

Why?
Sensei says teach.
Teach
IDK what rank you are. if asked to teach, teach, if not asked.
SHUT UP AND TRAIN

[Demetrio Cereijo]

For those who don't shut up and train: Kanshi.

That's all.
:D

[Walter Martindale]

All great posts.
But still, a 5th kuy should not be teaching class.

Well... Others have said - if sensei says teach, teach...

The gokyu can go through a bunch of basics (to the level he or she knows). The senior students can practice these basics at their level, the junior students can practice at their level. The gokyu leading the class can learn from teaching and observing the difference between the seniors and the juniors, and everybody gets ahead.

Just my $NZ0.02
Walter

[Zolley]

All great posts.
But still, a 5th kuy should not be teaching class.
I think there can be a good reason for asking a 5th kyu to teach the class.

When we were 5th kyu Sensei once said at the end of a training: "...and people with 5th kyu should start thinking about how they would teach the class." Within a couple of weeks, suddenly, all 5th kyus started to remember all the techniques' and their versions' names and what the base steps were called, what we needed to be aware of in order to roll nicely, etc.. We got never called out to teach a class but we could as well do it, because we thought about it, that was sensei's teaching for the 5th kyus.

If the lower rank student who teaches the class insults you (the higher rank aikidoka) then sensei will hopefully hear about it and draw the appropriate conclusions regarding that student's (self-)development.

Best,
Zolley

[Dieter Haffner]

All great posts.
But still, a 5th kuy should not be teaching class.If my teacher would ask a 5th kuy to lead class, I would be glad for her to get the opportunity and support her in every way I can.
It would be interesting to see how he sees and thinks about certain techniques.
In fact, I am planning to let the students teach a technique they favor the next time I substitude (if the teacher agrees with it). Don't tell them yet, it needs to stay a surprise. ;)

But to have a 5th kuy fall in, every time the instuctor can't make it, and when higher ranked people are present, is a bad idea IMHO.
The aikido initiator course (teaching children and beginners up to 4th kuy), regulated by the governement, requires at least 1st kuy. So you might say that a 5th kuy does not have enough luggage yet to be teaching it peers.

Now you might say:
- "But the 5th kuy is a very talented student that might turn out to be a great teacher one day.". Sure, but the instuctor should be present for support and adjustments when needed. But don't leave him alone in class.
- "But that 5th kuy is a 3rd dan in this other art". Sure, but tell him to teach some stuff of his own art (maybe something he thinks relates to aikido).
- "But teacher said so". Sure, but ask yourself (as a higher rank) what the reason that the teacher picks this lower rank over you. Then try to do something about it, not for yourself or your ego, but for the club.

When a 5th kuy is the first substitute for a class (when higher ranked students are present), there is/could be something wrong with the class/dojo.
Maybe the class hours fall really bad so that it is hard to be in class every time. Maybe some rescheduling is in place?
Maybe the 5th kuy is the best aikidoist/teacher the instructor has. But then the instructor should start to think why all these other students are not good enough.
Maybe the 5th kuy is the only person that is commited enough. If the sempai's can't catch the clue, the instructor should have a talk with them.

I do not pick on lower ranks (we all were lower ranks and still are lower ranks to many), but if you need to rely on the lower ranks, it might be time to think a few things over about your dojo.
Because after all ......a 5th kuy should not be teaching class.

Another thought:
Although "Shut up and train!" is a good answer.
Sometimes, as a sempai, you need to "Speak up and train even harder!". And not for your ego, but for the best of the club and trainer.

I hope this clarifies my previous post.

[happysod]

I'm off with the beer brigade I'm afraid...

I can see the benefits of having a lower kyu grade take the class if the instructor is there to monitor things - we give most of our kyu grades teaching practice before black belt.

However, if a low-grade kyu was consistently taking the class when there were higher grades present, unless they were a long term grade-dodger I'd wander off politely.

My time to train is, like most, limited and I don't consider being trained by a kyu grade on a regular basis a good use of it.

[Basia Halliop]

Part of the answer probably has to do with the difference between leading a class and teaching a class - not the same. In one case the person leading simply leads the warmups then demonstrates what techniques the class will practice in what order. In the other case the person teaching actually tries to communicate to the class how to do each technique, points out relevent steps and details, corrects those who make mistakes... not the same thing and which is more appropriate depends more on technical expertise than on anything else I can think of.

[Marc Abrams]

Teaching: Sharing with others with what we have learned from others along with our life experiences.

Learning: Opening ourselves up to experiencing something offered from somebody else, or a life experience.

I think that we all should be open to be able both teach and learn. Rank is not a requirement for either thing to occur. We should be open to learning from somebody with any rank (learning from positive, neutral or negative experiences) at the same time as being able to share with a person of any rank, what we have gained to date.

People get too caught up in rank, organizations, hierarchies, ..... for all of the wrong reasons. This situation usually stifles ones ability to learn from experiences.

Marc Abrams

[Will Prusner]

Sometimes I learn about Aikido from unlikely sources (like the zoo and fellow motorists). Sometimes unlikely concepts learned from Aikido prove invaluable in my daily life. The ability to learn, in my opinion has much more to do with the receptiveness and awareness of the student than the rank, experience or qualification of the teacher. There is no spoon. There is no "teacher", life is the teacher. The truth of Aikido, meditation, calligraphy, etc., is inside you, a teacher can only take you so far, before you have to continue the journey on your own, inwardly. For me, it is about personal responsibility, personal honesty, reflection and as accurate as possible analysis. Aikido and life, for me, is a highly individualized curriculum. If I can't or refuse to learn from somebody, anybody, any thing or situation, then I feel I am pretty screwed.

That being said, if Sensei brought a filthy, stinking, hostile Baboon into class and placed it at the head seat, I would try to understand and apply whatever I could from the encounter. My ability to learn is just that, MY ability.

That being said, I prefer a tall glass of chilled matcha green tea after practice.:cool:

W.

[rob_liberti]

Where I used to train in Japan it was literally an everyday occurance that a sandan uchideshi taught a class that was well attended by many 5th, 6th, and even a 7th dan. I thought it was a bit odd myself, so I asked. The answer was simply "it is his day to teach".

When I show up to Boston to see Gleason sensei and for some reason he is not there, I have had a wonderful time taking class from a person 3 ranks lower than me who took over class. I'm usually so happy to get to train and not have to worry about watching out for EVERYONE in the room like I have to when I'm teaching that I don't much care what is being taught and at what level of understanding. Who cares. I know what I need to work on, and I work on those things regardless of what techniques are being taught.

I would say that when I teach and people higher ranked than me are in class I don't normally correct them unless they want me to show them what I'm doing. I don't normally ask them up to demonstrate ukemi either - but if they want to do it, I might ask them up, and take their ukemi for the technique. It's all a bit silly really to worry about it.

I agree with the folks who suspect that the sensei for the OP is making a point about reliability.

The people who think that "rank" means ability to teach simply have not been around to many dojos where that is so clearly NOT the clase. There should be 2 separate ranking systems - 1 for martial ability, and 1 for teaching/coaching ability.

If the lower ranked student does try to make a technical point, I would hope that the senior student just take ukemi in the progressive resistance way and let the junior feel where they are straining - like you do for everyone else.

Rob

[ramenboy]

i guess i'm in the minority here, but hmmmm..... i've been to many classes where yudansha in class out rank the instructor because its 'his/her day to teach,' but the instructor is yudansha also.

the original post says that the instructor is a 'relative newbie.' but is there all the time. there's reasons there are people who have been trained as fukushidoin, and shidoin, etc. there are reasons there are programs in place to train teachers.

i agree that the situation could lead to a little overconfidence in the substitute teacher...

[Joe McParland]

Sooooooo much imagination in this thread, and so many assumptions.

If you want to know why the instructor did something, ask him.

[ramenboy]

...but who are you prepared to say that to? The chief instructor in your dojo who chose the 5th kyu, everyone in the room on that given day?

If I heard those words uttered from anyone, regardless of rank, I am ashamed to admit I would be stunned at just how arragont (or ignorant) that person is.
But perhaps that is just me....

the original poster wrote here asking for opinions, and so here we are, giving our opinions.

has nothing to do with arrogance or ignorance.

people are talking about how we should be open and should be able to learn from amyone. sure. that's probably true. i learn alot about my aikido working with beginners and intermediates during class. practicing with people of different levels helps you learn. BUT there's a big difference between learning about yourself and your waza in practicing with someone in class, and having a 5th kyu teach a class...

dieter, well said.

[Nick P.]

the original poster wrote here asking for opinions, and so here we are, giving our opinions.

has nothing to do with arrogance or ignorance.

people are talking about how we should be open and should be able to learn from amyone. sure. that's probably true. i learn alot about my aikido working with beginners and intermediates during class. practicing with people of different levels helps you learn. BUT there's a big difference between learning about yourself and your waza in practicing with someone in class, and having a 5th kyu teach a class...

dieter, well said.

Hi Jerome,

If I did not make that clear, than I apologize, but I was referring to what would be said in the dojo amongst one's peers, not in this forum (similar, but not the same). Hope that is clear now, and I stand by my statement, at the same time acknowledging that I failed to use said scenario as an opportunity to learn...how ironic!

Posts # 76 by William and # 77 by Rob: I could not agree more with, especially the baboon aspect.

As for the difference between learning about yourself and your waza in practicing with someone in class, and having a 5th kyu teach a class, I choose to see none.

[ramenboy]

Hi Jerome,

If I did not make that clear, than I apologize, but I was referring to what would be said in the dojo amongst one's peers, not in this forum (similar, but not the same). Hope that is clear now, and I stand by my statement, at the same time acknowledging that I failed to use said scenario as an opportunity to learn...how ironic!

Posts # 76 by William and # 77 by Rob: I could not agree more with, especially the baboon aspect.

As for the difference between learning about yourself and your waza in practicing with someone in class, and having a 5th kyu teach a class, I choose to see none.

hey nick
all clear here :p. no need to apologize. as i said, its an open forum, we're giving our opinions. i don't think anyone here would out and out say 'hey! wtf!' in said class. as joe said, i'd maybe approach the chief instructor and see if he'd offer an explanation (you know us westerners, always need an explanation :P)

baboons, yeah i've worked with a few of them too before, i'd only request that he have a cleaner dogi than the ones i've worked with. hahahaha

again, i believe there's a good reason there are programs out there to train teachers.

now we can fight this last point out in a death duel! in the octagon!!!! evileyes

[Nick P.]

I only fight in octagons that are on fire, rimmed with razor-wire.
Anything less is for wimps.
;)

[Will Prusner]

I only fight in octagons that are on fire, rimmed with razor-wire.
Anything less is for wimps.
;)

Vids or it didn't happen!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D har har!

[Nick P.]

No video...no sucker, er, I mean opponent has accepted my challenge yet.

As such, I remain undefeated in the RROF (Razor Ring Of Fire) (Patent Pending).

[Joe McParland]

No video...no sucker, er, I mean opponent has accepted my challenge yet.

As such, I remain undefeated in the RROF (Razor Ring Of Fire) (Patent Pending).

Tragic accident involving the camera man and the fire... Still working out the bugs. Whoops! :D

[ramenboy]

No video...no sucker, er, I mean opponent has accepted my challenge yet.

As such, I remain undefeated in the RROF (Razor Ring Of Fire) (Patent Pending).

aaaaah!!! you win, nick. i'm allergic to razor-wire..... :P

[Tinyboy344]

just ask sensei: "SENSEI!!! WHAT THE &^#% was that about!!!"

[Shany]

I don't think Ranks really makes the person better or worse, whatever he teaches, give the respect for him by participating and aiding your teacher.

[Andrew S]

We could expand this discussion to include "Why did O-Sensei award several non-aikidoka verbal 10th dans?", "Why did he leave Saito Sensei custodianship of Iwama?" and others, and the answer would be the same: we don't know what the intention was.
O-Sensei is no longer here to answer our questions, but the sensei appointing the low rank as instructor for the day is.

[dps]

An opportunity to train is an opportunity to train no matter who teaches it.

If it leads to a disaster then that is the fault of sensei.

Don't those who teach also learn from those they are teaching.?

David

[NagaBaba]

An opportunity to train is an opportunity to train no matter who teaches it.

If it leads to a disaster then that is the fault of sensei.

Don't those who teach also learn from those they are teaching.?

David
There is an old saying from Himalaya: If it is impossible to find a good instructor, better not to train at all.

[ramenboy]

There is an old saying from Himalaya: If it is impossible to find a good instructor, better not to train at all.

well said, szczepan!

[Mark Uttech]

There is an old saying from Himalaya: If it is impossible to find a good instructor, better not to train at all.

Onegaishimasu. Wow, I disagree completely. How in the world can a new beginner tell if the instructor one finds is good or not? One has to try.

In gassho,

Mark

[Shany]

Ueshiba has cleverly said that the path to Aikido learning should be fun and joyful.

this goes to whoever teaches you, 5th kyu, 2nd kyu, 8 Dan or whatever, Your Aikido doesn't come from the teacher, it comes from you, you are oblicated to find what works for you.

Some learn faster, some learn smarter, some learn slower and some keeping getting stuck for a long period of time.

Whoever teaches, merely give you a guiding line to this long path of Aikido, so ok, He does the technique not so good, so what.. that's his experience of Aikido, someday if you would find your self instead of him, teaching and someone else would think the same, what would you think about your self than?

"Never doubt the poorness of others as it will strike you at your vital parts of your soul." - Me!

[Aikibu]

Teaching: Sharing with others with what we have learned from others along with our life experiences.

Learning: Opening ourselves up to experiencing something offered from somebody else, or a life experience.

I think that we all should be open to be able both teach and learn. Rank is not a requirement for either thing to occur. We should be open to learning from somebody with any rank (learning from positive, neutral or negative experiences) at the same time as being able to share with a person of any rank, what we have gained to date.

People get too caught up in rank, organizations, hierarchies, ..... for all of the wrong reasons. This situation usually stifles ones ability to learn from experiences.

Marc Abrams

Amen

I think this post is also what Jun had in mind when he started Aikiweb. :)

Thanks Marc.

William Hazen

"The only thing a black belt represents is that you have the potential to be a good student" Shoji Nishio Shihan

[NagaBaba]

Onegaishimasu. Wow, I disagree completely. How in the world can a new beginner tell if the instructor one finds is good or not? One has to try.

In gassho,

Mark
Well, 5th kyu 'instructor' is not good. Even beginner should have such common sense.

[NagaBaba]

Ueshiba has cleverly said that the path to Aikido learning should be fun and joyful.

this goes to whoever teaches you, 5th kyu,
5th kyu student can't teach, but he can learn.

[Aikibu]

Well, 5th kyu 'instructor' is not good. Even beginner should have such common sense.

Perhaps...Perhaps Not...What if the 5th Kyu has a Sandan in Judo and a Godan in Karate...or experiance in Wu Shu or Gung Fu...

Heck we get students like that more often than not and everyone of them has a little common sense too...

One of things I love at seminars is watching "Aiki-Gods" (usually freshly minted Sandans) get knocked on their asses by "5th Kyu's" because the "beginner in Aikido" does not do Ukemi very well heh heh heh :D

Another old Himalayan saying... Those judging a book by it's cover... or a student by the color of his belt... May end up waking up looking into bright florescent lights. :)

William Hazen

[Peter Goldsbury]

There is an old saying from Himalaya: If it is impossible to find a good instructor, better not to train at all.

I do not think that Szczepan's 'old saying' should be dismissed so lightly.

I had a similar argument once with no less a shihan than Kazuo Chiba. Chiba Sensei's aim in creating his Birankai has been to create good teachers and he strongly believed that a lifelong commitment to an art like aikido was foolish unless the student found the teacher that 'fitted'. Chiba Sensei himself came across one of Kisshomaru Ueshiba's early books in a bookstore, saw what he had to say about O Sensei, and decided that O Sensei was the teacher for him. He sat outside the Hombu Dojo for three days and rest, as they say, is history.

My argument was that Chiba Sensei was young and 'foolish' at the time (though I did not put it quite in these terms) and had not yet made any decisions about what to do with his life. For those who had made such decisions, it was far too harsh to expect them to organize their entire future aikido existence around one teacher.

Both Chiba Sensei and myself were assuming that the student had made a lifelong commitment to aikido and that the keynote of this commitment was continuous, hard, daily training, not occasional appearance at seminars. Chiba's argument was based on his own experience; mine was based on mine. In fact my own lifelong commitment to aikido was largely formed as a result of training with him as teacher. Both views assume that you need a teacher who has the capability to take you further on the Way, if you like, than you think you can go yourself.

Best wishes to all,

[Will Prusner]

What if the 5th kyu has been training for 20 years and refuses to participate in the testing process. Would it be inappropriate for him to teach a class full of Sandans who have been training for only 3-4 years?

I'd take his class.

[SeiserL]

IMHO, there is something to learn from everyone, therefore the rank of the instructor may not be as important as the openness of the student.

[Basia Halliop]

Your Aikido doesn't come from the teacher, it comes from you, you are oblicated to find what works for you.

Wow, I really can't say I agree with that... at least not at such a beginner level (I can't say if at some point I'll start to feel differently)... My Aikido comes from my teacher more than from me :lol. It makes sense to experiment, sure, you have to ultimately take responsibility for yourself, sure, everyone is different, sure, you have to use your own brain and experiences, sure, the work is yours, sure, but it doesn't follow that if I just get together with a couple of random friends a couple of times a week, we'll magically reinvent a particular martial art between us. Why bother going to school, either? Math is purely logical, right, so if I just use trial and error I should come up with integral calculus eventually, no? The teacher teaches... that's why he or she is called a teacher. That's why we pay to join a dojo... for the teacher... you can get padded mats somewhere else if that's all you really want.

Perhaps...Perhaps Not...What if the 5th Kyu has a Sandan in Judo and a Godan in Karate...or experiance in Wu Shu or Gung Fu.

I think it might be pretty cool to take a class or two from them where they taught something from karate or judo.

Not saying I'd never ever take even a single class from someone who just started, or that I don't constantly learn masses and masses from people only a few years 'ahead' of me, or sometimes from someone 'behind' me, but to think that how much you learn doesn't depend tonnes on the experience and skill of your teacher? That you can learn as much from someone who just started as from a really good and experienced teacher? Yikes.

[ramenboy]

...Your Aikido doesn't come from the teacher, it comes from you, you are oblicated to find what works for you....

yeah hmmmm... i think this is a very common misunderstanding that many intermediate students have...

they miss the beginning of that comment, which is probably the most important...once you have a solid understanding of the basics, after years and years of study, maybe, MAYBE you can find a way of movement that works better for you.

of all the shihan i've had the opportunity to see, sure, they talk about making aikido your own, or finding out 'what works for you...' but that's AFTER Y0U'VE DEVEL0PED A G00D F0UNDATI0N.'

try to do a search on chiba sensei's explanation of transmission in martial arts. the concept of shu ha ri. its only after a long period of training the body, training the muscles in correct form, training the mind, that you finally see what works for you. you don't try a movement a couple of times and decide, 'ah, i think it works better like this...'

anyways, sorry if there's some thread drift here. but keep things in perspective. in order for us to learn aikido, or anything, we first need a good teacher.

the original post said the person in question is a 'relative newbie' who happens to show up alot. maybe the instructor's sending a message to to the others ranked higher to show up a little more.

like people have been saying in their posts, maybe the best thing to do is the tried and true 'hey sensei, what's up with that?'

[NagaBaba]

Perhaps...Perhaps Not...What if the 5th Kyu has a Sandan in Judo and a Godan in Karate...or experiance in Wu Shu or Gung Fu...

William Hazen
Of course such person should then teach Judo, Karate or Wu shu. why misleading ppl that he knows something about aikido? Or may be you assume that judo sandan knows automatically aikido ?? :confused: :eek:

[NagaBaba]

IMHO, there is something to learn from everyone, therefore the rank of the instructor may not be as important as the openness of the student.
Such approach is responsible of all this crap that we have these days in MA. I bet 1000$ you developed it in California :p

Following such bizarre logic I can open tomorrow a school of Daito ryu aikijujutsu, and if Kondo sensei will not want to learn from me I can safely say he has closed mind :D

[NagaBaba]

What if the 5th kyu has been training for 20 years and refuses to participate in the testing process. Would it be inappropriate for him to teach a class full of Sandans who have been training for only 3-4 years?

I'd take his class.
First of all, sandans that have 3-4 years of training, are incompetent in aikido. No kidding. Have you ever seen in your short life a sandan with such experience? You are creating an impossible scenario just to prove your point or what?

If the 5th kyu has been training for 20 years and refuses to participate in the testing process, let him continue his quiet practice in the dark corner of tatami. Teaching class is not his best occupation in the dojo.

[NagaBaba]

I do not think that Szczepan's 'old saying' should be dismissed so lightly.

I had a similar argument once with no less a shihan than Kazuo Chiba. Chiba Sensei's aim in creating his Birankai has been to create good teachers and he strongly believed that a lifelong commitment to an art like aikido was foolish unless the student found the teacher that 'fitted'. Chiba Sensei himself came across one of Kisshomaru Ueshiba's early books in a bookstore, saw what he had to say about O Sensei, and decided that O Sensei was the teacher for him. He sat outside the Hombu Dojo for three days and rest, as they say, is history.

My argument was that Chiba Sensei was young and 'foolish' at the time (though I did not put it quite in these terms) and had not yet made any decisions about what to do with his life. For those who had made such decisions, it was far too harsh to expect them to organize their entire future aikido existence around one teacher.

Both Chiba Sensei and myself were assuming that the student had made a lifelong commitment to aikido and that the keynote of this commitment was continuous, hard, daily training, not occasional appearance at seminars. Chiba's argument was based on his own experience; mine was based on mine. In fact my own lifelong commitment to aikido was largely formed as a result of training with him as teacher. Both views assume that you need a teacher who has the capability to take you further on the Way, if you like, than you think you can go yourself.

Best wishes to all,
Also, in short term, from strictly technical point of view, if a student learns from bad teacher, he will develop many bad habits. These habits will be very difficult(if not impossible!) to erase, even for very talented teacher - it will take much longer to erase then to teach the new, good one. So we may say, that the time, effort an money with bad teacher are lost for nothing and worse - you go under zero.

[SeiserL]

Such approach is responsible of all this crap that we have these days in MA. I bet 1000$ you developed it in California :p
Thanks for noticing.

Actually the approach started in Detroit, matured through the military, mellowed in CA, and is now in GA (with a strong influence of education, intellectual investigation, and lots of physical training).

And yours?

[Lyle Bogin]

Perhaps our dojo is unique in how openly everyone disagrees with one another (and I know it's not). I constantly face contradicting advice from my sempai. When I ask Imaizumi Sensei for advice, he often avoids specific answers or says "it depends". I also hear a lot of "he didn't used to do it that way". So that's what I look for in a dojo now...not a bunch of people doing things "correctly," but rather a group of practitioners that are all doing their own thing based on common basics.

Why not take classes from a person of lower rank? At least they take care of all of the organization so you can just work out.

However, when it really comes down to it, finding a great primary instructor whose technique you find absolutely compelling can't be made up for with a bunch of college club instructors.

[Chicko Xerri]

What is more concerning to me is not Instructors of low rank teaching Aikido, but rather, poorly trained Instructors granted high rank status lacking a broad spectrum of basic knowledge. In the past it was often the case for students of Aikido to practise 3, 4 or more times per week for 7, 8, or 9 years before trying for sho-dan. Today in that same time frame some Aikidoka reach 3rd dan, even 4th dan is not unheard of. If there was a degree of outstanding talent I would relent in my view,:) but the talent would have to be awesome. Setting the future agenda and direction of Aikido is in the hands of the high ranks. I hope the standard keepers of Aikido in the future, have this at heart. :)

[Garth Jones]

While there may well be folks promoted to 3rd or 4th dan after just a few years, I don't think it's common. I've trained for 20 years now, and in that time I've never met anybody who was promoted like that. The fasted time to shodan I've ever seen is about 3.5 years. He was in his early 20s, trained 5-6 days a week, went to every seminar and camp he could, AND had natural talent. There was no doubt that he deserved the rank.

I should say that all my training has been in various dojos in the United States (both USAF and ASU) - other groups may regard ranks differently.

Cheers,
Garth

[ramenboy]

What is more concerning to me is not Instructors of low rank teaching Aikido, but rather, poorly trained Instructors granted high rank status lacking a broad spectrum of basic knowledge. In the past it was often the case for students of Aikido to practise 3, 4 or more times per week for 7, 8, or 9 years before trying for sho-dan. Today in that same time frame some Aikidoka reach 3rd dan, even 4th dan is not unheard of. If there was a degree of outstanding talent I would relent in my view,:) but the talent would have to be awesome. Setting the future agenda and direction of Aikido is in the hands of the high ranks. I hope the standard keepers of Aikido in the future, have this at heart. :)

i couldn't have said it better myself.

again, that's why i've stated before, there's a reason there are programs in place to train instructors.

[Joe McParland]

[...] sure, but it doesn't follow that if I just get together with a couple of random friends a couple of times a week, we'll magically reinvent a particular martial art between us. Why bother going to school, either? Math is purely logical, right, so if I just use trial and error I should come up with integral calculus eventually, no? The teacher teaches... that's why he or she is called a teacher. That's why we pay to join a dojo... for the teacher... you can get padded mats somewhere else if that's all you really want.

Where did aikido, calculus, or any other thing that we can claim to know, to label, to learn, or to teach come from in the first place?

Calculus is a very apt example. Who taught calculus to Newton or Leibniz---two people credited with simultaneously and independently (in different countries) inventing what we call calculus? And if that was all there was, how did calculus (and all of mathematics) continue to grow, even today?

Who taught Newton or Leibniz calculus? Who taught O-Sensei aikido?

The answer is "yes," by the way: students, with the right circumstances, are discovering / inventing the principles calculus every single day! (See Wikipedia's note on the Moore Method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_method) for an interesting read.) Other students with different circumstances are only being shown techniques of calculus every single day. Both are happening with or without a teacher, every moment, somewhere on this planet...

The same is true of martial arts, of course.

[Aikibu]

So a 5th Kyu teaches (more like shares) a (as in ONE) class on something like rolling or a Kata or sword cutting...and we risk the entire Aikido World falling apart in a spasm of chaos and anarchy...

I don't think the thread started out this way but hey I guess it makes for light comedic reading. :)

William Hazen

I am just a Nidan myself but I am often asked to teach those of higher rank because of my abilities and experience (I have been teaching something or other for a very long time and it feels natural). I might get a Sandan this year I certainly meet the requirements for the exam....LOL

[Nick P.]

So a 5th Kyu teaches (more like shares) a (as in ONE) class on something like rolling or a Kata or sword cutting...and we risk the entire Aikido World falling apart in a spasm of chaos and anarchy...

...and brimstone and fire. And locust, lots of locusts.

[gdandscompserv]

Sokaku Takeda Sensei taught for many years all over Japan. Was this also a means of training himself?
Exactly. Teaching can be a way to train oneself. Teaching is learning and studying.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=77

[Basia Halliop]

Where did aikido, calculus, or any other thing that we can claim to know, to label, to learn, or to teach come from in the first place?

Calculus is a very apt example. Who taught calculus to Newton or Leibniz---two people credited with simultaneously and independently (in different countries) inventing what we call calculus? And if that was all there was, how did calculus (and all of mathematics) continue to grow, even today?

Who taught Newton or Leibniz calculus? Who taught O-Sensei aikido?

OK, if that's how you'd like to learn everything. To me it seems kind of akin to throwing out a couple of tens of millenia of human discovery and learning, but to each his own.

Newton's the one who spoke of standing on the shoulders of giants, by the way. He studied what had been discovered by those who came before him, and then extended it further.

[deathlinenetworks]

anyone can teach a class regardless of rank, just as long as that particular practitioner understands the art and won't feel cocky. but if you ask a student who has no martial art background and only joined roughly for 1 month and were asked to teach..... then i won't know what to say.

[DemonGibber]

I read about half this thread so i dont know if it was stated or not but anyone think it might be a test not only for the lower ranked person to show they can handle themselves but for the higher ranks not to get pissed n try to take over the class. Cause my opinion would you want someone in your close who is really quick to anger who knows how to hurt people i mean im an outsider an im not inplying that any of you ladies/gentlemen would but.... i would take it as a test

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Just wondering...
How do you respond when you outrank the person teaching a class? By a lot! What if everyone in the class outranks the person teaching? Just wondering if there's some hidden resentment or indignation, but dojo etiquette prevents you from showing it?
This happens here sometimes when an instructor is going to miss a class and asks a student to sub, and chooses a particular person that is always in class and is an avid and zealous student. But the person is very low in rank, a relative newbie. I figure the reasons that that person is chosen to teach are reliability and passion for Aikido.
Personally, I don't mind. Although I have noticed that it imparts a bit of over-confidence in his/her ability that should probably be tempered. But then I'm a big believer in humility.
My question is, how would you respond?

Ask to be his uke?

Tony

[SeiserL]

Low rank but high skill = fine
Low rank and low skill = not so good.
High rank and high skill = better

IMHO, it is less about rank and more about the skill of the instructor and the open mindedness of the students.

[Rocky Izumi]

Just to drive some of you nuts, I will make the comment that I have assigned youngsters of about 11-13 years of age to take over the teaching of the adult class. No, it was not to teach the senior adults about humility. It was because those youngsters were better instructors than the adults, for those specific areas. No one is best at everything. I would prefer that the best instructor for something teach that thing. In one of these cases, it was Ukemi. Another, it was the study of the Ken. Another was the warm-up exercises and how to do them correctly without injury.

Sometimes, it is not always the person who knows the most that is the best instructor for a group. Sometimes, a lower level instructor is able to communicate the issues better.

As you become more advanced, the blocks of understanding and blocks of movement by which you see things becomes bigger. This makes communication difficult between the instructor and student because they are talking two different languages. What is one movement for me may be five different movements for the lower rank. When this is the case, it is sometimes better for a lower rank who uses the same language to do the verbal instruction.

This is partly the reason for many Japanese instructors to not say anything when instructing. What they say will have no meaning to the student or will be interpreted incorrectly. If the student simply watches and learns, then the student can interpret the movement at their own level of understanding.

I guess this is a complex way of saying: "Just shut up and practice."

Rock

[Kevin Leavitt]

I think it depends on what you mean by "instruction". If it is a rote technical aspect...that is, say the basic mechanics of kotegaehsi. Then pretty much anyone that has been studying aikido for a year should be competent to teach it. You know, it ain't rocket science!

Howver, when you start talking about Aikido, which implies a comprehensive system of study of personal development...well then it requires a great deal amount of skill and wisdom that must be applied over the long run.

That, takes someone with a higher degree of experience and mastery that is usually measured in years, reflected typically through the awarding of rank.

[Walter Martindale]

Just to drive some of you nuts, I will make the comment that I have assigned youngsters of about 11-13 years of age to take over the teaching of the adult class.
(snip)

This is partly the reason for many Japanese instructors to not say anything when instructing. What they say will have no meaning to the student or will be interpreted incorrectly. If the student simply watches and learns, then the student can interpret the movement at their own level of understanding.

I guess this is a complex way of saying: "Just shut up and practice."

Rock
I've been one of those beginners that Rock has asked to teach class (to other beginners). At the time, having a year of Aikido and a judo shodan, I could teach what little Aikido I knew, and help with ukemi. Being a professional rowing coach with a post-grad biomechanics degree didn't hurt, either, but that's another story.

Re: the no talking instruction and practice - I guess the traditional Japanese instruction is being shown by research to be a very effective way to learn movement skills - it's called "intrinsic learning" - people learn more by observing a movement and then trying to repeat it based on what they've observed (sometimes it needs many demonstrations) but with NO COMMENTARY in the demonstration. R. Masters - do a google search on that name with Intrinsic Learning, and you should find lots of academic articles...

These days when I'm coaching, and developing coaching education programmes, I use "try this" and "try that" and "how did that feel", rather than give a great long explanation about how to do things.

Cheers,
Walter

[Phil Parsons]

I'm the lowest ranking instructor on the student-instructor rotation at my dojo, at 2nd kyu. When I teach, I just pick some techniques and try to focus on a theme, and then break people up into groups by rank so they can train on techniqes at their own level. I ask the students who are senior to me for some input when explaining a technique, as I am explaining it primarily for the sake of junior students.

As a senior student being instructed by a lower-ranking student, the most important thing to remember is that you should be supportive of the class and contribute to the training. Furthermore, keep it in mind that it is as much a learning experience for the instructor as it is for the students. If you have something to contribute to the instruction, offer it, but don't hijack the class.

[Rocky Izumi]

At some point, all chief instructors are instructors of people who will someday, hopefully, become instructors themselves. My job these days is to create good instructors. With that in mind, I realize that behavioural modelling is important in learning how to teach. However, so is practice. As such, I must ask the lower ranked person to teach while I practice so that I can observe how he or she teaches, then, after class or after the teaching period, I need to provide the lower rank with feedback on what they did. Lower ranks need to teach at times. If the chief instructor doesn't teach them how to teach and let the person practice, the chief instructor will never be able to take a break and go to teach a seminar somewhere or do other things. Students may pay me to teach. Usually, instead, I pay to teach. But even if they do pay, part of that payment is for the feedback after the person teaches and I can comment on what he or she did. Letting a person who is trying to learn to become a good instructor flounder around because I haven't given him or her decent feedback after observing his or her performance is quite wasteful of both of our times.

Rock

[Erik Jögimar]

I would respect sensei's choice in deshi to teach the class, and give the deshi the opportunity to learn. I'm new to teaching but it does help me put things into perspective, in my head.

That's how the Dojo works. You give, and you take. The student learns from sensei, and sometimes they give something in return and get something back from it in the process.

[Lyle Laizure]

Whoever is teaching should be given the same respect as the sensei. Even if that person is the lowest ranked person in the class.

[Walter Martindale]

Old Thread Alert!!!

[Daniel Blanco]

Teaching is also a learning process, as long as the student teaching can teach proper technics with confidence, but please lets not forget to respect who ever is teaching, because that is a challenge in itself and takes a lot of courage.