Lyoto Machida and Aiki*

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[Stephen Kotev]

I was watching the Lyoto Machida vs. Tito Ortiz rebroadcast on Saturday night and I was amazed by the ability of Machida to avoid strikes and immediately attack openings in Ortiz. Many of Machida's movements were very Aiki* to me (* I mean this in the evasion, blending, avoiding sense not in the integrated internal skill sense) Machida was just never there and Ortiz could never really hit him. Machida had wonderful zanshin -- he maintained his focus and his connection to Ortiz and was thus always very aware of the potential for attack and was able to counter strike or evade.

O-Sensei died before I was born and there is no recorded images, to my knowledge, of him responding to ‘challenges' so I am unsure what he would look like outside of a demonstration format.

I wonder if Ueshiba Morihei would look at all like Lyoto Machida?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_0SiiUpyXQ (this is not the best example but the UFC pulled all the clips of the Machida -- Ortiz fight.)

Caveat: The purpose of this post is further the discussion of modern day examples of Aiki* it is not intended to rehash old conversations about MMA vs. Aikido, or Aikido is not about fighting. O-Sensei was challenged to defend himself and was held in high regard for his martial skill.

Regards,
Stephen Kotev

[salim]

Awesome display of Aiki. In a street self defense situation, Aikido would be applied similar to those elusive techniques to avoid being hit. Then either counter punch and then go for a choke or arm bar of sorts. Ultimately convincing the defender to leave you alone or completely surrender with some sort of lock.

[jss]

Indeed, Lyoto Machida has got quite some skill.

But although these MMA fights are probably as close to a honest and safe challenge match as one can get, I can't help but wonder how far it still is removed from a challenge such as Ueshiba would have fought:
1) no gloves (more of an issue with actual boxing gloves, though)
2) no ring (more zanshin needed to say the least)
3) anything goes
4) no referee to stop the fight
5) real chance of debilitating injury
to name just a few.

OTOH, I can also imagine that there were two kinds of challenge matches in the old days: the somewhat friendly/polite ones and the really brutal violent ones, with the latter being a lot less common and the former being not *that* dangerous. Is there any research on this?

[Stephen Kotev]

Indeed, Lyoto Machida has got quite some skill.

But although these MMA fights are probably as close to a honest and safe challenge match as one can get, I can't help but wonder how far it still is removed from a challenge such as Ueshiba would have fought:
1) no gloves (more of an issue with actual boxing gloves, though)
2) no ring (more zanshin needed to say the least)
3) anything goes
4) no referee to stop the fight
5) real chance of debilitating injury
to name just a few.

OTOH, I can also imagine that there were two kinds of challenge matches in the old days: the somewhat friendly/polite ones and the really brutal violent ones, with the latter being a lot less common and the former being not *that* dangerous. Is there any research on this?

Joep,

Thanks for your reply. I guess I should have added another caveat; I did not want to steer the conversation to a deadly vs. sport/rules arguement - I am more interested in exploring current examples of Aiki*. I think that if Machida were in similar circumstances he would move and evade similarly. Yes, rules change tactics but that is a topic for another thread.

I really don't know much about what the 'challenges' were that O-Sensei encountered but they had to be severe enough to garner the respect he carries to this day.

Regards,
Stephen

[Michael Hackett]

Remember that Machida is a highly skilled BJJ practitioner and through his jujitsu training is very, very familiar with aiki principles. I've heard a number of those guys who have trained in both aikido and BJJ say that BJJ is "aikido on the ground". That was the first time I've seen Machida in the ring (OK, octogon) and I was most impressed with his maai. Superb athlete!

[jss]

I guess I should have added another caveat; I did not want to steer the conversation to a deadly vs. sport/rules arguement - I am more interested in exploring current examples of Aiki*.
Well, I brought it up to discuss the viability of such an Aiki* approach in different sets of circumstances. Because there is a difference between facing an unknown challenger and facing someone whose fights you have seen and analyzed under a pre-defined set of rules: Aiki* is a lot easier when you know (to a reasonable degree) what to expect.
Problem is I don't have any actual fighting experience (sport or street fight, for that matter), so besides asking the question, I have very little of value to add. And besides that, it is your thread, so if you want to discuss the application of Aiki* and leave the choice for/against this tactic out of the discussion, that's fine by me.

[brunotex]

Remember that Machida is a highly skilled BJJ practitioner and through his jujitsu training is very, very familiar with aiki principles.

Hello Michel,

I dont think that he is considered highly skilled in BJJ. Ok, he is a black belt, but so is Wanderlei Silva. Nogueira (Minotauro) is skilled in BJJ...

He is a highly skilled karateka. He represents Shotokan Karate. His father and brothers are also well known karatekas in Brazil.

Regards,

[Stephen Kotev]

Well, I brought it up to discuss the viability of such an Aiki* approach in different sets of circumstances. Because there is a difference between facing an unknown challenger and facing someone whose fights you have seen and analyzed under a pre-defined set of rules: Aiki* is a lot easier when you know (to a reasonable degree) what to expect.
Problem is I don't have any actual fighting experience (sport or street fight, for that matter), so besides asking the question, I have very little of value to add. And besides that, it is your thread, so if you want to discuss the application of Aiki* and leave the choice for/against this tactic out of the discussion, that's fine by me.

Joep,

I follow you better now. True, knowing your opponent ahead of time makes a huge difference just as knowing that you will be fighting someone would be a huge benefit. The reason I mention Machida is that his 'style' of fighting is very unique. He does not stand and trade shots he constantly evades and blends. I think that this is a constant that would be relevant regardless (hopefully just as Aiki* is). So that is what I felt was worth discussing. If you look at his other fights he fights this way all of the time. Most folks just can't hit him and he can and does strike back. He put Ortiz down with a beautiful knee to the liver.

Machida is also one of the few MMA fighters to still train in 'traditional' MA. His father trains him in Shotokan Karate. He attributes his elusive style to his Karate training http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=news.detail&gid=11776&pid=519 so this makes him a very interesting fighter to follow. I feel his behavior and outlook is very much influenced by budo.

Best,
Stephen

[DonMagee]

Not just Shotokan, but apparently a family tradition of Shotokan. he is listed as a black belt in Machida Karate.

I remember an interview (I think in the prefight ads for that event) where he says his father told him he is samurai and that he has no choice but to fight.

He is a great example on how karate can be properly trained (and combined with ground work/takedown defenses) to work in MMA.

[Stephen Kotev]

Not just Shotokan, but apparently a family tradition of Shotokan. he is listed as a black belt in Machida Karate.

I remember an interview (I think in the prefight ads for that event) where he says his father told him he is samurai and that he has no choice but to fight.

He is a great example on how karate can be properly trained (and combined with ground work/takedown defenses) to work in MMA.

Hey Don,

Not to side track the thread but I thought this was an interesting quote from Machida:

"The main adjustment for me was adapting competition karate to fighting karate," he said. "There is a big difference. In competition you control the move, you don't use knees, and I competed for a long time. When I first got into MMA it was difficult at first because I wanted to control each move unconsciously."

Best,
Stephen

[gdandscompserv]

Hey Don,

Not to side track the thread but I thought this was an interesting quote from Machida:

"The main adjustment for me was adapting competition karate to fighting karate," he said. "There is a big difference. In competition you control the move, you don't use knees, and I competed for a long time. When I first got into MMA it was difficult at first because I wanted to control each move unconsciously."
That is interesting. He apparently adjusted quite well though.

[Michael Hackett]

Bruno,

I guess we have a different point of reference. From my view, a black belt in BJJ is highly skilled and I guess they are a dime a dozen in Brazil. I've only rolled with one BJJ black belt, a new one at that, and I was really impressed with his skill, control, finesse, and lightness. Heck, blue belts submit me at will too.

Machida sure packed a whallop, didn't he?

[jennifer paige smith]

I remember an interview (I think in the prefight ads for that event) where he says his father told him he is samurai and that he has no choice but to fight.
.

Which might be a difference between the Budoka and a Samurai. Thoughts?

[lifeafter2am]

I was seriously impressed with that knee shot to the liver, Tito just collapsed! (How I loathe Tito ... lol)

He is definitely a skilled fighter, but if you noticed there were more than a few times when the crowd was getting a little antsy, and starting to boo. Even though I was impressed with his style, the question is, is his style what the UFC wants because he doesn't brawl all out like the people are used to. I sure hope to see him fight again though.

[Aikibu]

Which might be a difference between the Budoka and a Samurai. Thoughts?

In short...

Samurai=Loyalty to a Master

Budoka=Loyalty to Budo

William Hazen

[jennifer paige smith]

In short...

Samurai=Loyalty to a Master

Budoka=Loyalty to Budo

William Hazen

Thanks William,
Those are similar to my thoughts. I framed the difference for myself as:

A Samurai serves man first.
A Budoka serves nature first.

I appreciate your definitions and they are good food for thought.

Best

[brunotex]

Michael,

I understand your point of view, and I think you are right. I was comparing his ground fighting with BJ Penn, Minotauro, Murilo Bustamante...

[Stephen Kotev]

I guess we got off topic... and relocated.

My intent was to discuss modern examples of Aiki* and correlate them to O-Sensei and his challenges. Typically, in 'effectiveness' arguments folks say Aikido is effective but we have little video record of Aikido 'in action' that is not a demo or dojo home videos. Normally, we understand that we may not pull off a 'text book' technique but we would apply the principles of Aikido to our current circumstances. I thought Machida was an excellent example of Aiki* in action. And if I wanted to be controversial, I may even say that Machida and Ueshiba Morihei Sensei would have moved similarly....

Regards,
Stephen

[Ron Tisdale]

Hey Stephen,
I liked that fight, and his style as well. As to anything else, I guess it's just a guess...

I do think that was a text book example of the appropriate control of ma ai, and a great example of an unfettered mind as well. I especially noticed that even though the crowd started booing, Machida did NOT seem to change his tactics...he just kept on winning :D

It must have been VERY frustrating for Tito...I can't imagine someone with his physical prowess facing someone who fights like shifting smoke...always in your eyes, yet you can't hit him, can't take him down. I'd love to see some training vids from Machida.

As to Aiki...well, the way I tend to look at that term now days, I don't know that it applies. One thing to note, from what I understand of Ueshiba's "tests", a lot of them seemed to have been based on pushing and pulling, not so much striking or evasions. Although there is at least one story of him facing a sword / kendo adept...I'm sure evasions came in handy there. I think a description of that event is on aikido journal.

Best,
Ron

[Stephen Kotev]

Hey Stephen,
I liked that fight, and his style as well. As to anything else, I guess it's just a guess...

I do think that was a text book example of the appropriate control of ma ai, and a great example of an unfettered mind as well. I especially noticed that even though the crowd started booing, Machida did NOT seem to change his tactics...he just kept on winning :D

It must have been VERY frustrating for Tito...I can't imagine someone with his physical prowess facing someone who fights like shifting smoke...always in your eyes, yet you can't hit him, can't take him down. I'd love to see some training vids from Machida.

As to Aiki...well, the way I tend to look at that term now days, I don't know that it applies. One thing to note, from what I understand of Ueshiba's "tests", a lot of them seemed to have been based on pushing and pulling, not so much striking or evasions. Although there is at least one story of him facing a sword / kendo adept...I'm sure evasions came in handy there. I think a description of that event is on aikido journal.

Best,
Ron

Hey Ron,

For all my years of training I have never heard any specific details about O-sensei's 'challenges' - the descriptions normally leave a lot to the imagination. It would be great to get some specific accounts of what actually happened. If you are correct and a majority of the 'tests' were about pushing and pulling then we could attribute his success to his internal skills.

I am more interested in the accounts that describe his responses to accomplished challengers.

I really think that Machida has a lot to offer. His use of ma ai, zanshin, feints ( as atemi) and a whole host of other skills are wonderful illustrations of Aiki* in an alive and resistive setting.

Best,
Stephen

[Lyle Bogin]

Boring fight, mostly. But nice timing. Would say say he great "kokyu" more than "aiki".

[Stephen Kotev]

Boring fight, mostly. But nice timing. Would say say he great "kokyu" more than "aiki".

Care to elaborate?
I have defined "Aiki*" in this thread as: evasion, blending, avoiding. If I use the aikiweb wiki definition (http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Kokyu) I don't follow you.

[DonMagee]

Boring fight, mostly. But nice timing. Would say say he great "kokyu" more than "aiki".

A good fight should be boring, until it is finished. At least in the japaneese mindset of fighting. One strike, one kill. So 90% of the time is waiting for that right moment to kill.

Basically that is what he was doing.

[Ron Tisdale]

My views of aiki and kokyu are pretty much the same now. Maybe some differences...it's still fuzzier than I would like.

I personally would no longer define aiki as you have in this thread. but that's just me...

Best,
Ron

[willy_lee]

I'm very pleased to have discovered this guy through this thread, I like his style a lot.

I've been looking at highlight reels of him on youtube -- there was one where he had what looked to me like a clear sayu nage/gyaku gamaeate -- looks like it just "was there" and he took it.
Pretty cool to see!

=wl

[Stephen Kotev]

My views of aiki and kokyu are pretty much the same now. Maybe some differences...it's still fuzzier than I would like.

I personally would no longer define aiki as you have in this thread. but that's just me...

Best,
Ron

Ron,

For the purposes of this thread I chose to define Aiki in a specifc manner. I am well aware of the hornet's nest that surrounds this term. For some dojo they define Aiki as evasion and blending only and I wanted to provide a modern example of that perspective. The comprehensive defintion of Aiki I'll leave to another thread.

Best,
Stephen