PDA

View Full Version : Grappling In Aikido


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


salim
07-25-2008, 06:08 PM
While browsing youtube for Aikikai clips, I came across this wonderful clip showing ground work that is very similar to Judo/BJJ movements from Sensei Masatomi Ikeda, 7th DAN, Aikikai Hombu. I was very happy to see these techniques expressed and demonstrated. I thought I would share this and would like to hear what others think.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=85Jxmles0Hk

eyrie
07-25-2008, 10:55 PM
Similar? Nah... that's just basic judo osae komi waza - in sequence: yoko shiho gatame (side 4-corner hold), kesa gatame (scarf hold), ushiro kesa gatame (rear scarf hold), kami shiho gatame (top 4-corner hold), kata gatame kami shiho gatame (shoulder hold + top 4-corner hold).

Looking at his wikipedia bio, apparently he is (was?) a 4th-dan in judo.

Buck
07-26-2008, 12:41 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. Groundwork was first discovered right after the first guy who fell to the ground in a fight and fought from there. That probably happen right after the first case of being caught having an affair with another caveman's woman. Or the first caveman stealing food from another.

I am not surprised to see the Judo moves at all. ( I don't practice Judo so I am going off that it was Judo ). Before BJJ and it's popularity there was Judo. I think it is a stable in all Japanese martial arts used in feudal times not to go to the ground which spawns the concept of, to defeat your opponent you must first be successful with kuzushi. You lose in Sumo if you go to the ground first before the other guy. Japanese martial combatants didn't want to go to the ground in all those centuries of war, right?

Spartans, Greeks and Romans had wrestling/groundwork. But, I don't think either of them as soldiers in combat wanted to go to the ground on the battlefield. I think that would be the last place the wanted to go.

BJJ made it popular for many people to think that it was an advantageous position to fight from to go to the ground and do ground work their way. And Kudos to that art for being good at it, in they arena. But it is sad to think that there might be any indication that people will think BJJ pioneered or was the father, mother of all ground work. And that- yes, fights do go to the ground - no other art ever thought and developed ways to fight when on the ground other than BJJ.

DonMagee
07-26-2008, 01:28 AM
It is defiantly judo, but with a judo background I'm not surprised. Of course if I was his coach, I'd have a few critiques of the technique displayed there by both people in the demo. Improper hand placement in a few instances, bent leg during the escape demonstration, and his hips where way up there in the air and not really connected at all.

Sorry, i'm getting ready to teach a judo class tomorrow, so i'm in the tell people what they did wrong mindset.

dalen7
07-26-2008, 04:20 AM
[QUOTE=Philip Burgess;212233]I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. /QUOTE]

I believe I see your point.

There is a generation now that cries out, "ITs the only art that can take someone bigger than you" - and then trailing off and faintly heard...if at all...is the statement, "if they dont know it to." (which of course everyone and their brother is learning BJJ now, so that aspect and magic of gracie taking down someone bigger is no longer there.)

As well as rules of the game.
Every game has rules - I suppose the only one to really win would be krav maga - if you call killing your opponent winning. Traditional Jui Jitsu maybe with eye gouging, etc. may stand a chance - as well as a Thai boxers elbow to the cranium if there wasnt a rule against that as he was being taken down. (Maybe there isnt a rule about that...but Im sure there is.)

So all in all, BJJ is the new mystical Kungfu of this century.
Yes, it works, but so do the other arts mentioned, within their context.

The rules set forth, in order not to maim and kill people have shown that for a sport - one against one - BJJ (mixed...key word) with other arts, is a fine art indeed.

I know, Im one of those quacky guys who things that your mindset is the best way to stay out of a fight - so in the end it really depends on what your going for.

As far as Judo and BJJ, Judo was taking all the biting edges off of jui jitsu in order to safely practice - and BJJ refined Judo. (but you all know this already, and many of you know it first hand as you train in BJJ and/or Judo.)

Aikido was a big step for me, as I have always been inclined to strike and kick, never was into the wrestling bit - but I have come around somewhat and am interested in the potential combinations of such arts as BJJ and Judo with Aikido.

In fact one of our test requirements is Suwari Sumo..though we have not even really been properly trained in it - its more like a free for all unfortunately. So Im taking clues from watching youtube in how to do escapes, etc. ;)

Peace

dAlen

James Edwards
07-26-2008, 05:01 AM
I like Mr. Burgess' point with the ground as being the last place someone wants to go especially on the battlefield. In my opinion ground work seems to only be useful when there is only one other opponent. With multiple opponents (like often assumed in aikido practice) it would be rather silly to end up on the ground.

Another point though. In jujutsu and judo you still have ne waza or ground fighting (I don't do either btw). Clearly then the Japanese still had a concept of ground work in their grappling martial arts. Just like the ancient Spartans, Greeks and Romans. They may just not do it on the battlefield as well.

Anyway thanks for sharing the video. I'm sort of glad I don't do ground techniques. It would still be great to learn, it just doesn't seem to be very dignified to practice :S

eyrie
07-26-2008, 06:08 AM
First off, I have to agree with Don. It's definitely Judo. It's the first 4 basic katame waza that you go thru in the sequence demonstrated. I would also agree that it was kinda sloppy. However, to give the benefit of doubt, it may be possible that he was only demonstrating shifting positions rather than the actual technique itself or the finer points of technique. So the hips too high may just be an exaggerated movement for demonstration, but I can't fathom the disconnectedness though.

While Phil has a valid point, my counter argument would be that knowing how to at least escape from the mount or guard is a useful thing, even if you don't want to engage in a full-on groundfight. But sometimes you just don't have a choice, and knowing how to extricate and counter on the ground is just another tool in your toolbox.

Sure it might not look like a very dignified practice, but if you somehow find yourself in a very undignified and compromising position, at least you'll know what to do with the SOB forcing himself on you. ;)

Marc Abrams
07-26-2008, 08:33 AM
Don:

As an ex-wrestler, I would love somebody to try and move on top of me like they did in that demo! :cool: Off to Boulder Camp! Everyone have a great week and train safely!

Marc Abrams

raul rodrigo
07-26-2008, 08:52 AM
While browsing youtube for Aikikai clips, I came across this wonderful clip showing ground work that is very similar to Judo/BJJ movements from Sensei Masatomi Ikeda, 7th DAN, Aikikai Hombu. I was very happy to see these techniques expressed and demonstrated. I thought I would share this and would like to hear what others think.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=85Jxmles0Hk

Similar to judo? It's the standard Judo katame waza lesson: yoko shiho, kami shiho, ushiro kesa, tate shiho. I was taught the katame waza that way.

salim
07-26-2008, 01:16 PM
Similar to judo? It's the standard Judo katame waza lesson: yoko shiho, kami shiho, ushiro kesa, tate shiho. I was taught the katame waza that way.

BJJ was derived from earlier version (pre World War II) of Kodokan Judo. There are many variations of Jujutsu schools (ryu). Jujutsu is the father of Judo, Aikido and Brazilian Jujutsu. If you look at a practitioner of BJJ and Kodokan Judo, they are almost the same. The original forms of Kodokan Judo uses a lot of the same techniques.

Ground fighting is important and no person can always insure that they will not go to the ground, better to know how to handle yourself in a situation like this as it arises. This is why you see a 7th dan Aikido sensi, Sensei Masatomi Ikeda teaching this to his students.

CitoMaramba
07-26-2008, 03:48 PM
Ikeda Masatomi Sensei used to be the resident Aikikai Shihan in Switzerland (based in Zurich). Unfortunately, some years ago, he suffered a stroke and has returned to Japan.

Buck
07-26-2008, 04:00 PM
Hey, I agree with what everyone said, and disagree with what I don't agree with:D. It is sad to see the lost of history, connection and education that is happening in MMA. I am not pointing any fingers or wagging a finger either. I am just observing a loss that I think will doesn't or couldn't occur. I think this is happening the greatest among fans who have little or no training. Those fans who like to watch the fights disconnected from the martial arts background and history. You can't blame new fans as these because the MMA techniques called the, rear necked choke, mount, triangle and with disconnected general martial terms like jujitsu turned into catch all terms for grappling, plus other color language increases the lack of martial arts context. At this point if "Mix(ed) Martial Arts" hadn't become so strongly identified and associated with the MMA fighting venue, it would be better to call it something like Mixed Ring Fighting.

I think history is important. I think connections to origins are important. I feel for those who are not given that information.

Fighting on the ground, I believe in the existence of gravity. And people do lose their balance and find themselves on the ground. It wouldn't hurt to be prepared. But it isn't a place I prefer to be. If I do find myself on the ground I prefer it to be in a ring or on a wrestling mat. The least favorable would be on the street (on the asphalt or concrete in a tight or confined space). If I had too, on the street, it would be on a nice sandy beach on a cool day. It's just that I place my bets on concrete vs. the human body. I hate it when your grabbed by the hair or head and your head is repeatedly smash or stomped into the concrete. The face and skull can only take so much of that. Not that I know that, it wasn't like it happened to me in the 5th grade (not as intensely as an adult experience) proceeding and resulting of a wedgie taking me to the ground.

Kevin Leavitt
07-26-2008, 07:48 PM
James Edwards wrote:

like Mr. Burgess' point with the ground as being the last place someone wants to go especially on the battlefield. In my opinion ground work seems to only be useful when there is only one other opponent. With multiple opponents (like often assumed in aikido practice) it would be rather silly to end up on the ground.

No doubt it is the last place you want to be in any fight. It is not an advantageous position to fight from in reality. In BJJ sport...yes...the sport rewards ground fighting.

You have to be careful with your logic and reasoning...the logic and reasoning you use is predicated on CHOICE of position. I could demonstrate to you in about 15 minutes on the importance of ground fighting for all close fights that do not involve weapons, (and some that do).

Another point though. In jujutsu and judo you still have ne waza or ground fighting (I don't do either btw). Clearly then the Japanese still had a concept of ground work in their grappling martial arts. Just like the ancient Spartans, Greeks and Romans. They may just not do it on the battlefield as well

ne waza is present in ALL good martial arts that consider the full spectrum of the fight. I do aikido, BJJ, and Judo. Doing all three has given me an appreciation of the emphasis that all three methodologies put on the various phases and dynamics of a fight. ne waza exsist in aikido, bjj, and judo. It is just we have "rules" or "paradigms" that cause us to have a different perspective from the training methodology used. Unfortunately, for those that have a limited view of the spectrum and "aliveness" of fighting, we tend to have a skewed view of things.

From looking at the video, it could be BJJ or Judo...the ne waza principles are exactly the same. I do agree with Don though that it is a little loose and based on how he mounts, hand position etc... he would get swept. However, at least he is doing it, and not bad for a old guy.

salim
07-26-2008, 08:09 PM
Kevin Leavitt understands the reality of self defense. I really appreciate his perspective.

CitoMaramba
07-26-2008, 08:33 PM
O-Sensei doing ne-waza:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/2038285023_3db492ae15.jpg

salim
07-26-2008, 08:43 PM
O-Sensei doing ne-waza:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/2038285023_3db492ae15.jpg

Awesome picture.

Buck
07-26-2008, 08:47 PM
:eek: I would dare ask how many Aikidoka under say 30 knew this existed.

dalen7
07-27-2008, 02:44 AM
O-Sensei doing ne-waza:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/2038285023_3db492ae15.jpg

Judging by the hair color it was in his younger years.
Do you suppose it was jiu jitsu he was still practicing there.

It all seems to be releated... Judo came from Jiu jitsu - BJJ from Judo - Aikido from Jiu Jitsu...so in the end if you learn BJJ and Aikido your probably leaning what we see O Sensei doing here...namely jiu jitsu.

So the circle is complete, all the things stripped out have become one again...cool. I could use some ground fight - in the same tokken, I like strikes and kicks (Im sure that was part of the whole Jiu Jitsu bit to...) but for now knees and elbows from Thai boxing seem to suffice in time of need. ;)

Peace

dAlen

Kevin Leavitt
07-27-2008, 07:41 AM
Ask me how my aikido got better during the 4 years I was stationed in Germany and had no aikido dojo to practice in?

I did BJJ.

Please don't read this as "you should go to BJJ to get better at Aikido".

That is not correct logic. As you will see the 4 to 5 years I spent away from the dojo, there were several aikidoka that grew PAST me in aikido while I was doing BJJ.

BJJ is not a efficient or fast way to learn the principles of aikido, if you want to be proficient at the curriculum of aikido.

I do think that Judo or BJJ provide a wonderful base of work to refine the learning of dynamics and principles we are trying to learn.

If I were to do it over again, I'd spend my childhood years learning Judo, then Mid Teens to early 20's doing BJJ, then move into aikido in my 30's.

Over generalization...yes...but that is how i'd probably do it if I could today.

CitoMaramba
07-27-2008, 09:21 AM
The picture I posted was taken in 1936, as part of the Noma Dojo series of photographs. According this article (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=626) by Fumiaki Shishida:
in 1928, Ueshiba changed the name of his martial arts school to Aioi-ryu Aiki Bujutsu. He again renamed his school Aiki-Budo or Ko-Budo, and finally settled with aikido in 1942.

Reading Nidai Doshu's writings about the early years of his father reveals that O-Sensei trained in Kito-ryu (one of the antecedent arts of judo) and judo itself, prior to training in Daito-Ryu. Words in parenthesis are mine..
From: The Life of O-Sensei in Aikido Online (http://aikidoonline.com/Archives/2000/may/feat_0500_dosh1.html)
...In 1901 when he was 18, the Founder took the first steps in the direction of achieving his driving ambition. He had come to Tokyo because he wanted to be a great merchant. He spent busy days working on a wholesale street, and studied jujutsu of the Kito Ryu at night. ...
(after service in the army, O-Sensei was asked to re-enlist and enter the military academy, but he turned down the offer.)
...Although he refused to enter the academy, he did not want to return to an ordinary life. Therefore the vigorous and spirited young man became a community leader in his village of Tanabe and managed the activities of his district. Kiyoichi Takagi, then just a third grade holder in judo, visited the Founder's hometown. The Founder put together a group at the Young Men's Club of the town and had Takagi teach. Takagi later became a judo 9th dan holder. The Founder himself studied judo with great diligence.

IMHO, I think ne-waza should also be included in training in the event that the conflict goes to the ground. At least the historical record shows that O-Sensei did train in ne-waza.

dalen7
07-27-2008, 09:47 AM
IMHO, I think ne-waza should also be included in training in the event that the conflict goes to the ground. At least the historical record shows that O-Sensei did train in ne-waza.

Im all for it now - but it seems Judo is stand up throw down and thats it. (You throw down the opponent you score a point, no?)

So I suppose its BJJ or something along those lines to compliment things.

Seeing we dont have any BJJ around here, suppose I will learn what I can from watching on youtube and practicing. (Who knows, maybe I will get Roy Deans "BJJ Blue Belt" dvd.)

- not to mention still the combo of Thai boxing in there.
As mentioned, it seems the 3 together would in affect give you jiu jitsu to some extent no?

Thanks for that pic...

Peace

dAlen

lifeafter2am
07-27-2008, 10:06 AM
I agree with a lot of what has been said here. Although, ideally, I don't want to go to the ground (and I train hard to not be taken down), I have trained in BJJ just in case I am taken down. Being that a fight is a very fluid situation, I think you should be trained for anything that may happen. No reason to not be well-rounded and at least take a few classes here and there in other styles, just in case.

Whether it should be taught in Aikido classes is not up to me, but I remember when taking TKD that we used to have a "guest" instructor a few times a month that would come in and teach other martial arts; my first experience with Aikido actually. The same thing occurred in my BJJ class, we used to have a guest Judo instructor come in once in a while. In fairness though these were both 5 day a week training schedules, which is not the case in most Aikido schools. If you are only already training 2 days a week in a style, I can't imagine having that replaced a few days a month with another style. I tend to pick the schools that train more. :)

The problem with it being taught in Aikido dojos has to do with how the instructor was trained. They can't teach it if they weren't taught it. So it is kind of a trickle down effect, and then you get, what I think you all call, aiki-bunny? :p

CitoMaramba
07-27-2008, 10:55 AM
Im all for it now - but it seems Judo is stand up throw down and thats it. (You throw down the opponent you score a point, no?)
Actually there are other ways to score ippon, not just throwing, according to the International Judo Federation Rules (http://www.intjudo.eu/?Menu=Static_Page&Action=List&m_static_id=42&lang_id=2&mid=7&main=12):
20. Ippon
The Referee shall announce Ippon when in his opinion the applied technique corresponds to the following criteria:
a) When a contestant with control throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed.

b) When a contestant holds with Osaekomi-waza the other contestant, who is unable to get away for 25 seconds after the announcement of Osaekomi.

c) When a contestant gives up by tapping twice or more with his hand or foot or says Maitta (I give up!) generally as a result of Osaekomi-waza, Shime-waza or Kansetsu-waza.

d) When a contestant is incapacitated by the effect of a Shime-waza or Kansetsu-waza.

A memorable ippon via osaekomi was when Anton Geesink pinned Akio Kaminaga with kesa gatame in the finals of the openweight division during the Olympic debut of Judo in 1964.

Thanks for that pic...

You're welcome.

Cito

salim
07-27-2008, 11:00 AM
Roy Dean shows a pretty good example of Aikido and ground techniques and it's application.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg&feature=related

Bryan Sproles
07-31-2008, 03:11 AM
I believe learning to be able to defend yourself on the ground is an important skill - but as my Jujitsu sensei always told us, the ground is the LAST place on earth you want to be in a real fight.

If there are multiple attackers, even if you're very good on the ground, you're at a huge disadvantage and stand to be injured very badly....or worse.

Learn enough to get back to your feet as quickly as you can, or if that's not possible, maybe try a close quarters nikkyo or ikkyo if the chance presents itself (suwari-waza *was* the original "ground fighting", after all... :))

-Bryan

DonMagee
07-31-2008, 08:14 AM
[QUOTE=Philip Burgess;212233]I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. /QUOTE]

I believe I see your point.

There is a generation now that cries out, "ITs the only art that can take someone bigger than you" - and then trailing off and faintly heard...if at all...is the statement, "if they dont know it to." (which of course everyone and their brother is learning BJJ now, so that aspect and magic of gracie taking down someone bigger is no longer there.)

As well as rules of the game.
Every game has rules - I suppose the only one to really win would be krav maga - if you call killing your opponent winning. Traditional Jui Jitsu maybe with eye gouging, etc. may stand a chance - as well as a Thai boxers elbow to the cranium if there wasnt a rule against that as he was being taken down. (Maybe there isnt a rule about that...but Im sure there is.)

So all in all, BJJ is the new mystical Kungfu of this century.
Yes, it works, but so do the other arts mentioned, within their context.

The rules set forth, in order not to maim and kill people have shown that for a sport - one against one - BJJ (mixed...key word) with other arts, is a fine art indeed.

I know, Im one of those quacky guys who things that your mindset is the best way to stay out of a fight - so in the end it really depends on what your going for.

As far as Judo and BJJ, Judo was taking all the biting edges off of jui jitsu in order to safely practice - and BJJ refined Judo. (but you all know this already, and many of you know it first hand as you train in BJJ and/or Judo.)

Aikido was a big step for me, as I have always been inclined to strike and kick, never was into the wrestling bit - but I have come around somewhat and am interested in the potential combinations of such arts as BJJ and Judo with Aikido.

In fact one of our test requirements is Suwari Sumo..though we have not even really been properly trained in it - its more like a free for all unfortunately. So Im taking clues from watching youtube in how to do escapes, etc. ;)

Peace

dAlen

I just want to touch on something here. By nature of training in krav maga, traditional jujutsu, etc doesn't mean you are instantly going to beat a sport fighter in a fight (not that you were implying that, or at least I hope you were not).

Many of the deadly techniques and those described in your post are extremely hard to do in real situations. For example, eye gouging. If you can strike me in the face, then it is safe to say you can attempt an eye gouge, however, a well trained sport fighter is going to be hard to strike in the face. It reminds me of the many times I've had to demonstrate this to guys who were very sure that pinching me, trying to grab my groin, eye gouging, punching from under the mount, etc was going to defeat my grappling. Even with my subpar grappling, there lack of actual experience in physical confrontations was apparent and they were unable to do anything.

So yes, while you could use a downward elbow to the spine to stop a take down (see Royce Gracie v.s. Jason Delucia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI ) a proper takedown takes away the power of that shot ( see Royce Gracie v.s. Jason Delucia). And while a well placed knee to the face will knock out a guy as he takes a shot, a well place knee is not that easy if you haven't spared using that well place knee for a long time and drilled it into oblivion. Even in the example fight listed above, Royce was not really known for being good at takedowns, not compared to the good sport fighters of today.

My point is that sport fighters have very well drilled and well tested gameplans that hold up for the most part with the deadly added in. The deadly however is almost always not well trained, drilled, or tested. So when teh chips are down, most will probably be unable to uses it, or at the very least a sport fighter will be better at using it. (Reminds me of the time a guy bit me from in the mount, I sat up and poked my two fighters right on the bridge of his nose and asked if he wanted to keep his eyeballs).

dalen7
07-31-2008, 01:02 PM
(not that you were implying that, or at least I hope you were not).

I would pretty much agree with you - so your right I wasnt implying that. :D

Sport fighting is indeed what its name suggest and they train like any other athlete to be proficient, etc.

Krav Maga, etc. has its purposes, as you mentioned, for a whole different scenario.

And then there are regular brawls. The guys that take all of this stuff who are not 'sport fighters' and the rules can truly be flexible...depending on the set up of the situation and what is happening at the time. (its the great unknown to a certain extent.)

I have been in a couple of those situations - (regular fights...which really are not regular, but again depend on the situation at hand and its true immediate danger.)

Good post - its good to clarify.

Peace

dAlen

salim
07-31-2008, 04:42 PM
[QUOTE=Dalen Johnson;212239]

I just want to touch on something here. By nature of training in krav maga, traditional jujutsu, etc doesn't mean you are instantly going to beat a sport fighter in a fight (not that you were implying that, or at least I hope you were not).

Many of the deadly techniques and those described in your post are extremely hard to do in real situations. For example, eye gouging. If you can strike me in the face, then it is safe to say you can attempt an eye gouge, however, a well trained sport fighter is going to be hard to strike in the face. It reminds me of the many times I've had to demonstrate this to guys who were very sure that pinching me, trying to grab my groin, eye gouging, punching from under the mount, etc was going to defeat my grappling. Even with my subpar grappling, there lack of actual experience in physical confrontations was apparent and they were unable to do anything.

So yes, while you could use a downward elbow to the spine to stop a take down (see Royce Gracie v.s. Jason Delucia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI ) a proper takedown takes away the power of that shot ( see Royce Gracie v.s. Jason Delucia). And while a well placed knee to the face will knock out a guy as he takes a shot, a well place knee is not that easy if you haven't spared using that well place knee for a long time and drilled it into oblivion. Even in the example fight listed above, Royce was not really known for being good at takedowns, not compared to the good sport fighters of today.

My point is that sport fighters have very well drilled and well tested gameplans that hold up for the most part with the deadly added in. The deadly however is almost always not well trained, drilled, or tested. So when teh chips are down, most will probably be unable to uses it, or at the very least a sport fighter will be better at using it. (Reminds me of the time a guy bit me from in the mount, I sat up and poked my two fighters right on the bridge of his nose and asked if he wanted to keep his eyeballs).

Don,

That video clip should be a good learning lesson to all those who share in the true realities of self defense. Thanks for sharing.

salim
07-31-2008, 04:54 PM
Here is a clip of Jason Delucia using Aikido techniques in a semi sparring situation. This shows some real resistance, almost what you would expect in a real altercation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

salim
07-31-2008, 05:14 PM
I guess I should say attempting to use some Aikido techniques.

DonMagee
07-31-2008, 08:51 PM
Here is a clip of Jason Delucia using Aikido techniques in a semi sparring situation. This shows some real resistance, almost what you would expect in a real altercation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

Interesting video, while I see the aikido influence in there it is in the minority. Most of what he is doing looks like bjj to me :D

lifeafter2am
07-31-2008, 08:56 PM
Interesting video, while I see the aikido influence in there it is in the minority. Most of what he is doing looks like bjj to me :D

I concur. I see very little actual Aikido as there are even scenes when he is going after the attacker and forcing techniques.

salim
07-31-2008, 09:24 PM
I suspect that Jason Delucia is probably not a well season Aikidoist. Not sure if has has any dans. It's the first attempt of Aikido techniques that I have seen posted on the internet with real resistance. I think the most important thing to gain from this video, is the effectiveness vs non-effectiveness of an Aikido technique with resistance. Realities of a resisting uke is rarely shown in the Aikido world on the internet. I would love for someone to show full resistance and post it on the internet. No demonstrations, but full all out resistance while applying an Aikido technique.

One has to modify the technique to some degree to arrive at the same conclusion in some cases, due to the resistance.

lifeafter2am
07-31-2008, 09:32 PM
I suspect that Jason Delucia is probably not a well season Aikidoist. Not sure if has has any dans. It's the first attempt of Aikido techniques that I have seen posted on the internet with real resistance. I think the most important thing to gain from this video, is the effectiveness vs non-effectiveness of an Aikido technique with resistance. Realities of a resisting uke is rarely shown in the Aikido world on the internet. I would love for someone to show full resistance and post it on the internet. No demonstrations, but full all out resistance while applying an Aikido technique.

One has to modify the technique to some degree to arrive at the same conclusion in some cases, due to the resistance.

I agree, but, at least what I have learned, is defense against full on attacks. Not going after an attacker and muscling techniques. I am not saying that all techniques work all the time, but the type of resistance you are trying to show here isn't realistic in my opinion. When I have punch coming at me, the attacker doesn't know I am about to toss him, and won't recoil and re-center his body. I am not the most seasoned Aikidoka, but I have been out with people who have used Aikido before, and obviously the person didn't roll with the techniques.

Resistance is one thing, but this video is full on, I know what you are doing and I am resisting, which isn't realistic either in my opinion.

:)

salim
07-31-2008, 09:43 PM
I give him credit for showing a possibly 190 to 200 lbs human, not cooperating to a technique and attempting to apply Aikido techniques. Sure, it's a little sloppy and not well trained, but great to see the real resistance.

Trust me it's real resistance. I tested my sensei too many times and he can never applied a technique against me like many of the demonstrations that you see on the internet and my sensei is a 4th dan. He has to always modify the technique. I'm a pretty fast puncher and I have good kicks and he almost never can catch my hand to apply a technique exactly, always a slight modification. I studied Burmese Bando for about 5 years prior to Aikido, so we learned to punch and kick pretty well. I'm about 200 lbs and my sensei really had to modify his techniques for them to work. If I was really a violent person and apply those same punches with the same aggressiveness, I imagine he would have to modify even more. Jason's video is not far from reality.

lifeafter2am
07-31-2008, 09:53 PM
I give him credit for showing a possibly 190 to 200 lbs human, not cooperating to a technique and attempting to apply Aikido techniques. Sure, it's a little sloppy and not well trained, but great to see the real resistance.

Trust me it's real resistance. I tested my sensei too many times and he can never applied a technique against me like many of the demonstrations that you see on the internet and my sensei is a 4th dan. He has to always modify the technique. I'm a pretty fast puncher and I have good kicks and he almost never can catch my hand to apply a technique exactly, always a slight modification. I studied Burmese Bando for about 5 years prior to Aikido, so we learned to punch and kick pretty well. I'm about 200 lbs and my sensei really had to modify his techniques for them to work. If I was really a violent person and apply those same punches with the same aggressiveness, I imagine he would have to modify even more. Jason's video is not far from reality.

The odds of me being attacked by someone who is very well trained in both my techniques and in a striking art (such as yourself) are very, very slim. So I would not worry about it as much.

I am not attacking grappling at all, as I have trained in BJJ. I am saying that the particular video you showed did show great resistance training, but not street fight realistic. At least not the fights I saw (growing up in Miami).

:)

salim
07-31-2008, 09:59 PM
I understand now. I agree with you. I bet the mean streets of Mami have some pretty tough guys. lol

lifeafter2am
07-31-2008, 10:01 PM
I understand now. I agree with you. I bet the mean streets of Mami have some pretty tough guys. lol

Just a few. ;) lol.

Bryan Sproles
08-01-2008, 06:36 AM
IIRC, in that Delucia vs. Gracie fight, I think Jason referred to his style as Kung Fu (he was certainly wearing that type of uniform in his pre-fight intro and was wearing a sash typical of the Kung Fu uniforms I've seen, in his actual fight.)

I only remember maybe one or two fighters very early in the UFC's history (sometime between UFC 1 and maybe...5 or 6) who ever claimed their style as Aikido.

-Bryan

Demetrio Cereijo
08-01-2008, 06:58 AM
Interesting video, while I see the aikido influence in there it is in the minority. Most of what he is doing looks like bjj to me :D

The clip is from Jason's "Combat Aikido" series, discussed some time ago:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=109071 (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=109071)

Daniel Blanco
08-01-2008, 01:11 PM
Aikido is one art and grappling is another lets not confuse them.

DonMagee
08-01-2008, 02:06 PM
grappling is just a range of fighting that begins with the clinch (or even trapping range if you like) and extends to cover throwing, submissions, and ground work (controls and pins)

Many arts have grappling. Just like man have striking.

Kevin Leavitt
08-01-2008, 05:14 PM
to me "Art" connotates a creative expression of "self". You have many "arts" fine arts, theater arts....martial arts. Collectively and conceptually we call these things "arts".

However when you get down to the actual practice of "arts" you have "practices, methodologies, techniques, tactics, procedures that allow you to learn ways of performing, executing, or expressing yourself.

To me, by saying "lets not confuse the two"...you are taking a arbitrary and parochial view of the "whole" of the "martial arts", of which Aikido, BJJ, Judo and every other practice/methodology is a part of.

The division lines are really quite arbitrary based on philosophy, perspective, or experience.

I perfer to look at Aikido as a methodology, not as an art. As such it allows you to fully explore the conditions that you may apply to the situation as we incur say in Judo and BJJ and apply the principles of aikido and still be well within the "Art" of aikido.

I'd perfer to say "lets make sure we understand the conditions and constraints in which we are practicing" vice saying "lets not confuse the two arts".

There is a difference in this perspective which opens up a whole new way of thinking and learning. One that does not limit you by the paradiqms and habits of daily practice.

jennifer paige smith
08-03-2008, 02:57 PM
Here's a word brought to mind by Kevins good post above:

Praxis:
In Ancient Greek the word praxis (πρᾱξις) referred to activity engaged in by free men. Aristotle held that there were three basic activities of man: theoria, poiesis and praxis. There corresponded to these kinds of activity three types of knowledge: theoretical, to which the end goal was truth; poietical, to which the end goal was production; and practical, to which the end goal was action. Aristotle further divided practical knowledge into ethics, economics and politics. He also distinguished between eupraxia (good praxis) and dyspraxia (bad praxis, misfortune).
'Art',or 'Craft', or 'Method' all can be approached with this in mind ( or out of mind if you're really good. LOL)
Best,
Jen

salim
08-03-2008, 08:49 PM
Awesome Aiki(Aikido) techniques used in newaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkcToDyV7b8

salim
08-03-2008, 09:03 PM
The closes thing to Aiki techniques, used in a sports competition. Kazushi Sakuraba uses Aiki submissions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSWl8ZVQRb8&NR=1

DonMagee
08-04-2008, 07:46 AM
Not really seeing it, sorry. Looks like normal mma to me.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-04-2008, 08:00 AM
Salim,

Wrist twisting and elbow locking doesn't make Aikido.

salim
08-04-2008, 08:34 AM
Yes I agree it's not Aikido. I was not trying to imply that it's Aikido like the millions of demonstrations on the internet that we see. What I was trying to imply, is the Aiki principles being demonstrated with the wrist, hand grab. You will almost never see Aikido being applied in a real life self defense or sports fighting event like what we see on the internet. You have to modify your techniques for a real situation or sports situation. The Aiki principles remain the same, unbalancing your opponent and redirect his/her own inertia. Unbalancing your opponent can take place in newaza as though you were standing. To many times I have tested my sensei using Burmese Bando punches and kicks. He didn't apply the Aikido techniques as seen in a demonstration or the billions found on the internet, but Aiki methods were applied based on the situation that he was presented with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkcToDyV7b8

DonMagee
08-04-2008, 08:41 AM
I think there must be more to aiki principles then the basic principles of judo mixed with some wrist locks. If that's the case then judo and bjj are already aikido.

salim
08-04-2008, 11:41 AM
Sure there's much more to Aiki principles. I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu? I think this is what Roy Dean has been trying to demonstrate in his approach to martials arts in general. Roy Dean knows Aikido, he is a 1st dan, but incoporates Aiki in his BJJ. I think he has a great approach to Aiki and self defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg

salim
08-04-2008, 11:48 AM
Another great clip from Roy Dean using Aiki principles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y

Zach Trent
08-04-2008, 12:03 PM
Reminds me of the time a guy bit me from in the mount


Do wha??!! :eek:

I guess if you want to train for reals... but that is over the line in my training book. I really like your response ;) Then it becomes "exactly how realistic would you like for training to get, my friend".

Daniel Blanco
08-04-2008, 02:19 PM
Great Kevin, you have your opinion on Aikido and I have mine, agian I say Aikido and grappling are two different arts, and this comes from a professional Law enforcement Officer and Aikido Instructor.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-04-2008, 03:48 PM
I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu?

Maybe. What is the meaning of "Aiki principles" for you?

salim
08-04-2008, 04:25 PM
Aiki to me is unbalancing your opponent and redirect his/her own inertia, giving a person the ability to throw the opponent if possible. Applying submission techniques when possible.

Kevin Leavitt
08-04-2008, 11:08 PM
Daniel Blanco wrote:

Great Kevin, you have your opinion on Aikido and I have mine, agian I say Aikido and grappling are two different arts, and this comes from a professional Law enforcement Officer and Aikido Instructor.


no problem, everyone is entitled to their own perspectives and opinions, of course.

this comes from a Professional Infantryman, aikidoka, and Army Combatives Instructor :)

Have a great day!

Kevin Leavitt
08-04-2008, 11:12 PM
Salim wrote:

Sure there's much more to Aiki principles. I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu? I think this is what Roy Dean has been trying to demonstrate in his approach to martials arts in general. Roy Dean knows Aikido, he is a 1st dan, but incoporates Aiki in his BJJ. I think he has a great approach to Aiki and self defense.

I use the principles all the time in BJJ and Judo. The challenge in implementing the principles is the difference in timing and the assumed parameters and rules, that is what messes you up when you are learning things. Once you can come to grips with these conditions/parameters, you can start exploring the prinicples of aiki in everything that you do.

Even in everyday life, from walking down the street, carrying boxes, lifting, opening doors...it is universal.

DonMagee
08-05-2008, 07:33 AM
Do wha??!! :eek:

I guess if you want to train for reals... but that is over the line in my training book. I really like your response ;) Then it becomes "exactly how realistic would you like for training to get, my friend".

Yea, I put myself in weird situations now and again. Usually some guy wants to 'prove' something to me so I tell him to just do whatever he wants to. I'm not a bad ass or anything, I just know when these guys don't have what they think they do, and I want to help clear up any delusions they might have. Or more importantly, I hope one day I meet one that clears up all my delusions.

salim
08-20-2008, 09:44 AM
Is anyone familiar with Jiai Aikido located in San Diego, CA? It's my understanding they have a wonderful program, which includes grappling in their Aikido. There website has the below advertisement.

http://sandiegoaikido.com/video.asp?s=1

I would like to hear from individuals who have train in their dojo. Perhaps I will be in the area visiting and would like to workout in their dojo.

Flintstone
08-20-2008, 11:15 AM
I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu?
Just watch Mifune Kyuzo Sensei!!

salim
08-22-2008, 09:11 AM
When one sits and contemplates about the similarities of Aikido and BJJ, often you will find that BJJ is Aikido on the ground. The arm locks, wrist locks, motions of the body on the ground, just seem to be too familiar with Aikido. I know a lot of hardcore traditionalist Aikidoka will disagree. A slew of individuals will think I'm some sort of sport MMA advocate. I'm more intrigued with the application of arts that are similar. Arts that allow a defender to subdue an attacker without brute force or necessarily strong kicks and punches. Subduing an attacker to either make them stop or enough to escape is awesome, without having to beat them to oblivion. It's a peaceful way to resist attacks.

Often when a women is attacked, usually the women will find herself on her back. In that case a good arm lock or wrist lock would allow the women to subdue her attacker, maybe long enough to escape. I think Aikido and BJJ for purely self defense are great arts to learn for subduing an attacker.

Really if you remove all the prejudices, forget about sport MMA/UFC hype and closely examine BJJ, there is so much in common. Watching the body movements, arm locks, wrist locks, you see Aikido on the ground. Sure the philosophical/spiritual differences can be argued. I see BJJ just as peaceful as Aikido. BJJ is not about brute strength, powerful kicks and punches much like Aikido is not. Anyone can learn Aikido or BJJ, women and children. You don't need tremendous strength. Your attacker could be 100lbs heavier and you would have the ability to restrain them whether standing or flat on your back with both Aikido and BJJ. Restraining the individual in a peaceful way is humane.

Kevin Leavitt
08-22-2008, 08:51 PM
Salim Wrote:

Often when a women is attacked, usually the women will find herself on her back. In that case a good arm lock or wrist lock would allow the women to subdue her attacker, maybe long enough to escape. I think Aikido and BJJ for purely self defense are great arts to learn for subduing an attacker.

Yes...I agree...lots in common for sure.

However, as I posted in another thread a few minutes ago. This can illustrate a big difference in methodolgies between Aikido and BJJ.

In BJJ you spend alot of time learning positional hierarchy and dominance...this is important. It ain't the wrist lock that matters in BJJ, it is positional dominance. Wrist locks are secondary. In fact they may get you in trouble. Ellis talks alot about this in the other thread.

Wrist locks typically are used as a control device to loosen a grip, to take a weapon, or to gain temporary compliance for another more permanent control measure. (Cuffs maybe?)

using it as a strategy by a woman to subdue and get away...no..I agree with Ellis....you piss him off and have left no permanent control measure in place.

Anyway...positional dominance is foremost, and this is what I think is most distinctive difference in training BJJ and Aikido in the methodologies. Lots in common in principle, but we in aikido tend to over look this vital component or at least view it of lesser importance sometimes when training principles.

TheAikidoka
10-28-2010, 02:03 AM
Is nobody here practicing, suwari waza in depth anymore! Juat a point:) .

In Budo

Michael Varin
10-28-2010, 03:56 AM
I know this was from a few years ago, but I'm not the one who revived it...

Consider:
In BJJ you spend alot of time learning positional hierarchy and dominance...this is important. It ain't the wrist lock that matters in BJJ, it is positional dominance. Wrist locks are secondary. In fact they may get you in trouble.
And:
Wrist locks typically are used as a control device to loosen a grip, to take a weapon, or to gain temporary compliance for another more permanent control measure. (Cuffs maybe?) [emphasis mine]

The evidence is practically slapping us in the face!

For those interested in training and using aikido techniques practically, why don't we train them in the context in which they were meant to be effective?

Also worth considering is why the rear naked choke and the guillotine are the only "bjj" submissions that haven't significantly dropped out of the class of effective mma techniques, while the positional dominance taught in bjj is still highly relevant to mma.

Richard Stevens
11-17-2010, 01:41 PM
This is merely opinion, but to me, if you are training with "martial" intent and haven't added any basic groundwork to your training you're left with a glaring hole in your skill-set. Even light cross-training in judo or jiu-jitsu can make a big difference in your state of mind if you found yourself in a situation where you were forced to the ground.

My father was a pretty decent Judoka in his day and I learned a good deal from him when I was younger. I definitely don't consider myself a judo ace, but I feel comfortable going to the ground. I'm not foolish enough to think I can submit someone from my back, but I feel confident I can avoid any major damage while trying to get back to my feet or transitioning to a dominant position.

Obviously, most of us want to stay on our feet, but if we ended up on the ground wouldn't it be good to know how to get back up?

Dazzler
11-18-2010, 04:31 AM
Is nobody here practicing, suwari waza in depth anymore! Juat a point:) .

In Budo

Howdy Andrew

I'm sure there are plenty here that practice Suwari waza, although whether it is 'in depth' depends on what you mean by this..

Suwari waza and grappling, or more specifically ground grappling are to me very different things indeed.

Due to the diversity of opinions of what is and isn't Aikido on this site there will be those that will disagree with this - I can only speak from personal experience and always happy to read alternative views and consider them of course.

(This assumes your point was to draw some parallel between the topic and Suwari waza)

Regards

D

Dazzler
11-18-2010, 04:50 AM
Salim Wrote:

Yes...I agree...lots in common for sure.

However, as I posted in another thread a few minutes ago. This can illustrate a big difference in methodolgies between Aikido and BJJ.

In BJJ you spend alot of time learning positional hierarchy and dominance...this is important. It ain't the wrist lock that matters in BJJ, it is positional dominance. Wrist locks are secondary. In fact they may get you in trouble. Ellis talks alot about this in the other thread.

Wrist locks typically are used as a control device to loosen a grip, to take a weapon, or to gain temporary compliance for another more permanent control measure. (Cuffs maybe?)

using it as a strategy by a woman to subdue and get away...no..I agree with Ellis....you piss him off and have left no permanent control measure in place.

Anyway...positional dominance is foremost, and this is what I think is most distinctive difference in training BJJ and Aikido in the methodologies. Lots in common in principle, but we in aikido tend to over look this vital component or at least view it of lesser importance sometimes when training principles.

Hi Kevin

As usual I agree with much of what you say and always appreciate how you measure Aikido against the reality of your experiences.

I'd just like to pick out your comment that positional dominance is foremost in BJJ where as I think you are suggesting that in Aikido there is more focus on the wristlock itself.

I'd say this could be correct for some but not for all.

In my own experience the wristlocks etc are used to express the underlying principles of Aikido, for instance kamae or position in relationship to uke is particularly relevant to your post ..as is maai - range or distance.

So for instance a wristlock deployed with good kamae leaves tori in a better position than uke and with correct maai at the right range rather than cranking on a lock while in reach of ukes other weapons systems.

So really - positional dominance - the same thing.

Whats neat is that this doesn't in anyway detract from the effectiveness of the lock...a good lock deployed in a good place is just as good...if not better than a good lock deployed in a bad place.

Not everyone trains with this in mind - but from the quality of many of the posts on this forum - a whole lot of people do.

Regards...and apologies if this is topic drift.

D

ps - just seen date of your post ..a zombie thread restarted...sorry to quote you so far off your original...but you are still around so I'll leave this here as food for thought

Kevin Leavitt
11-18-2010, 11:45 AM
Hey Daren,

Yup still around here! I agree, positional dominance...or at least the principles of positional dominance are exactly the same.

In most of what we do in aikido and BJJ we are trying to affect the balance/center...or better yet, the spinal alignment of our opponent to such a degree that they are at a positional disadvantage.

For me at least, say for example, Kote Gaeshi, it is less about what you are doing to the wrist than it is using that as an access point to the spine...if you are doing it as an aiki exercise.

Of course, as you put weapons in the mix, you might intially be focused a little more on the immediate area of the wrist to control, but I believe that this is a short term tactical consideration and a more lasting/permanent solution is gaining positional dominance through control of the spine or core.

I think though, to split hairs....that the pedagogy of aikido tends to allow students to focus on the extremities and what we are doing with them and acheive some success and miss this point.

Whereas BJJ pedagogy tends to put focusing on the dominance of the core (basic or literal positional dominance).

In the end though, yes, I agree if you are training correctly you reach the conclusion that "positional dominance" is the commonality to success in real control of a person.

Marc Abrams
11-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Hey Daren,

Yup still around here! I agree, positional dominance...or at least the principles of positional dominance are exactly the same.

In most of what we do in aikido and BJJ we are trying to affect the balance/center...or better yet, the spinal alignment of our opponent to such a degree that they are at a positional disadvantage.

For me at least, say for example, Kote Gaeshi, it is less about what you are doing to the wrist than it is using that as an access point to the spine...if you are doing it as an aiki exercise.

Of course, as you put weapons in the mix, you might intially be focused a little more on the immediate area of the wrist to control, but I believe that this is a short term tactical consideration and a more lasting/permanent solution is gaining positional dominance through control of the spine or core.

I think though, to split hairs....that the pedagogy of aikido tends to allow students to focus on the extremities and what we are doing with them and acheive some success and miss this point.

Whereas BJJ pedagogy tends to put focusing on the dominance of the core (basic or literal positional dominance).

In the end though, yes, I agree if you are training correctly you reach the conclusion that "positional dominance" is the commonality to success in real control of a person.

Kevin:

Excellent point. As you know, I strongly emphasize that focusing on the extremities is a futile act. Control of the center IS the key to success, regardless of how you access and gain control over someone's center.

Stay Safe!

marc abrams

sakumeikan
11-18-2010, 07:06 PM
Awesome Aiki(Aikido) techniques used in newaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkcToDyV7b8

Sorry , this video is impractical in showing kote gaeshi as a defence against a pin.. Why would anyone pinned on their back face up try a kote gaeshi movement when there are openings for various arm locks?Any seasoned grappler /judoka would avoid the kote gaeshi attempt.Similarly the average judoka would not apply kote gaeshi.May I also state that in general Judoka do not use kote gaeshi in ne waza.

Randall Lim
11-19-2010, 12:11 AM
O-Sensei doing ne-waza:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/2038285023_3db492ae15.jpg

Never knew Newaza ever existed in Aikido.
Never knew O'Sensei ever demonstrated Newaza.

But this photo seems to be of O'Sensei in his younger days.
Any Newaza photos of O'Sensei in his golden years??

Randall Lim
11-19-2010, 12:15 AM
Sorry , this video is impractical in showing kote gaeshi as a defence against a pin.. Why would anyone pinned on their back face up try a kote gaeshi movement when there are openings for various arm locks?Any seasoned grappler /judoka would avoid the kote gaeshi attempt.Similarly the average judoka would not apply kote gaeshi.May I also state that in general Judoka do not use kote gaeshi in ne waza.

Yeah,. According to Judo competition rules, only joint-locks on elbows are allowed. So no Kote gaeshi in Judo Newaza.

Randall Lim
11-19-2010, 12:22 AM
For me at least, say for example, Kote Gaeshi, it is less about what you are doing to the wrist than it is using that as an access point to the spine...if you are doing it as an aiki exercise.

.

Yeah. I agree. For me, Kote gaeshi is not about twisting the wrist joint. It is about conquering Uke's centre & controlling his movement through the circular motion of his fore-arm. Not about the wrist.

Randall Lim
11-19-2010, 12:33 AM
Really if you remove all the prejudices, forget about sport MMA/UFC hype and closely examine BJJ, there is so much in common. Watching the body movements, arm locks, wrist locks, you see Aikido on the ground.

Is that "Aiki" in BJJ??

Randall Lim
11-19-2010, 12:39 AM
Sure there's much more to Aiki principles. I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu? I think this is what Roy Dean has been trying to demonstrate in his approach to martials arts in general. Roy Dean knows Aikido, he is a 1st dan, but incoporates Aiki in his BJJ. I think he has a great approach to Aiki and self defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg

The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

Do not compare Modern Sport Judo with Aikido, because the former has lost much of its "Ju".

Instead compare Traditional Kodokan Judo (where there is a strong emphasis on "Ju") with Aikido.

You will see that the secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

ChrisHein
11-19-2010, 10:55 AM
I think people have a hard time understanding competition. When a skilled man faces an unskilled man, it's easy and effortless for the skilled man to defeat the unskilled man. Even if the unskilled man is larger and physically more powerful. This is not competition.

However if both men have similar levels of ability, experience and physicality there will be struggle. This is the nature of conflict and competition, and no martial art system is beyond this fact.

Eric Joyce
11-19-2010, 11:57 AM
The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

Huh? Could you explain this? So how did the jujutsu masters of the past, that had remarkable skills before the advent of aikido, do this this then? Did they not have the "secret" yet?

Cliff Judge
11-19-2010, 02:52 PM
Huh? Could you explain this? So how did the jujutsu masters of the past, that had remarkable skills before the advent of aikido, do this this then? Did they not have the "secret" yet?

I think you have it backwards, actually - the jujutsu masters of the past DID have it - they just didn't call it aiki.

Aiki isn't something O Sensei or Sokaku Takeda invented, it was present in slightly different forms in many different arts. O Sensei's gift to us - and kind of a loaded gift, to be sure - was to create an art that took what was deep, inner, secret stuff in the ancestor arts, and plunk it down on the table on Day 1.

Eric Joyce
11-19-2010, 03:16 PM
I think you have it backwards, actually - the jujutsu masters of the past DID have it - they just didn't call it aiki.

Aiki isn't something O Sensei or Sokaku Takeda invented, it was present in slightly different forms in many different arts. O Sensei's gift to us - and kind of a loaded gift, to be sure - was to create an art that took what was deep, inner, secret stuff in the ancestor arts, and plunk it down on the table on Day 1.

That was actually my point. They did have it, in one form or another and they didn't need to do it via "aiki". What Randall stated was:

"The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

This statement, to me, was more absolute. Like you said, it was presented in different forms in many different arts.

Cliff Judge
11-19-2010, 07:18 PM
That was actually my point. They did have it, in one form or another and they didn't need to do it via "aiki". What Randall stated was:

"The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

This statement, to me, was more absolute. Like you said, it was presented in different forms in many different arts.

I apologize for getting what you had backwards backwards.

Eric Joyce
11-19-2010, 08:07 PM
I apologize for getting what you had backwards backwards.

No problem Cliff :)

Randall Lim
11-19-2010, 11:15 PM
That was actually my point. They did have it, in one form or another and they didn't need to do it via "aiki". What Randall stated was:

"The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

This statement, to me, was more absolute. Like you said, it was presented in different forms in many different arts.

The concept of "Aiki" is not limited to our Aikido techniques alone.

"Aiki" is present in any technique that allows a person to experience "Ju" with an attack.

For example: If your opponent pushes you, & you use his forward force/momentum (together with a little of your own force) to break his balance, you are actually using "Aiki" to experience "Ju" for yourself.

If a person truly wishes to experience "Ju" in his techniques, he has to use "Aiki".

"Ju" & "Aiki" are very closely inter-related. Their relationship is that of a "Cause&Effect" nature.

The use of "Aiki" allows you to experience "Ju".

Flintstone
11-20-2010, 02:15 AM
What Randall is calling Aiki here I call it... Ju.

Eric Joyce
11-20-2010, 09:08 AM
What Randall is calling Aiki here I call it... Ju.

I agree.

Eric Joyce
11-20-2010, 09:19 AM
The concept of "Aiki" is not limited to our Aikido techniques alone.

"Aiki" is present in any technique that allows a person to experience "Ju" with an attack.

For example: If your opponent pushes you, & you use his forward force/momentum (together with a little of your own force) to break his balance, you are actually using "Aiki" to experience "Ju" for yourself.

If a person truly wishes to experience "Ju" in his techniques, he has to use "Aiki".

"Ju" & "Aiki" are very closely inter-related. Their relationship is that of a "Cause&Effect" nature.

The use of "Aiki" allows you to experience "Ju".

Ahhh, no. I don't have to use "aiki" to experience "ju". Using your example, I am using the "ju" principle from beginning to end.

If that is what "aiki" is (putting that little extra force behind my technique) then the discussions on this board for the past 8 years have been a waste of time. You just defined it.

Randall Lim
11-20-2010, 10:21 PM
Ahhh, no. I don't have to use "aiki" to experience "ju". Using your example, I am using the "ju" principle from beginning to end.

If that is what "aiki" is (putting that little extra force behind my technique) then the discussions on this board for the past 8 years have been a waste of time. You just defined it.

In my opinion, "Aiki" is not about "putting that little extra force behind my technique". That experience would be "Ju".

"Aiki" principles help in the experience of "Ju".

Budd
11-21-2010, 01:11 AM
In my opinion, "Aiki" is not about "putting that little extra force behind my technique". That experience would be "Ju".

"Aiki" principles help in the experience of "Ju".

So, how does it work?

Randall Lim
11-21-2010, 07:24 AM
So, how does it work?

As long as you are able to blend or harmonise with Uke's force/energy/momentum/Ki ("Aiki"), and then effortlessly break his balance & counter ("Ju").

"Aiki" being the "Cause", and "Ju" being the "Effect".

This is what I mean when I say that the secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

You may not agree with me, but at least understand what I mean.

Flintstone
11-21-2010, 07:54 AM
Understood. That's Ju from beginning to end.

guest1234567
11-21-2010, 09:32 AM
At the end of the class our teacher sometimes let us do some grappling, kind of jiujitsu just to become stronger, it is good to train like that, everybody enjoys it a lot

Randall Lim
11-21-2010, 10:57 PM
Understood. That's Ju from beginning to end.

Then, in your opinion, what exactly is "Aiki"??

Eric Joyce
11-22-2010, 02:52 PM
I will make no attempts to define aiki but feel free to use the search button and you will find a lot of information. Just be prepared to be on the computer reading this stuff for a long time.

Something to think of Randall....why, if one can only experience ju through the use of aiki, does DR have a DR Jujutsu curriculum & a DR Aikijujutsu curriculum? Wouldn't their jujutsu be impossible to do without aiki if there is this cause & effect relationship? Just something to ponder.

Flintstone
11-22-2010, 04:24 PM
Then, in your opinion, what exactly is "Aiki"??
Already stated MHO before in the forum. Not mainstream I must admit, so I'm not surprised we don't think the same here. Not saying that your Aiki won't improve your Ju, just that it has little in common with it.

Randall Lim
11-23-2010, 08:03 AM
I will make no attempts to define aiki but feel free to use the search button and you will find a lot of information. Just be prepared to be on the computer reading this stuff for a long time.

Something to think of Randall....why, if one can only experience ju through the use of aiki, does DR have a DR Jujutsu curriculum & a DR Aikijujutsu curriculum? Wouldn't their jujutsu be impossible to do without aiki if there is this cause & effect relationship? Just something to ponder.

I guess, just because something does not include an element in its name, does not mean that this something does not have that element.

In this case, just because DR Jujitsu does not include "Aiki" in its name, does not mean that DR Jujitsu does not have "Aiki" in it.

I guess both names refer to the same thing. ,

Cliff Judge
11-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Something to think of Randall....why, if one can only experience ju through the use of aiki, does DR have a DR Jujutsu curriculum & a DR Aikijujutsu curriculum? Wouldn't their jujutsu be impossible to do without aiki if there is this cause & effect relationship? Just something to ponder.

I don't think he's saying that results are impossible, just that its not quite RIGHT if not done with Aiki. More like you can see / feel the difference when a master does a technique with Aiki vs a beginner muscling it, or someone in the middle doing something in between.

I also don't think the fact that Takeda created a set of kata and called them the "Aikijujutsu" series means that the study of Aiki in Daito ryu is confined to the stuff on that scroll. O Sensei found the techniques of the first scroll to be sufficient vehicles for exploration of Aiki, after all.

Eric Joyce
11-23-2010, 10:24 PM
DR jujutsu & aikijujutsu are not different names for the same thing. They are in fact...different. I think the disconnect here is that what some aikidoka think is aiki is really just ju. Don't take my word for it but research what DR aiki is/looks like and then compare it to aikido's aiki.

You may discover what you are calling aiki isn't what DR calls aiki & is in fact just another extrapolation of the ju principle. Just my 2 cents.

Randall Lim
11-24-2010, 01:28 AM
DR jujutsu & aikijujutsu are not different names for the same thing. They are in fact...different. I think the disconnect here is that what some aikidoka think is aiki is really just ju. Don't take my word for it but research what DR aiki is/looks like and then compare it to aikido's aiki.

You may discover what you are calling aiki isn't what DR calls aiki & is in fact just another extrapolation of the ju principle. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your input. I have always thought that they were both the same thing. Just one being the shorter form of the other.

Anyway, it is good that we are open for discussion.

However, I do remember reading from somewhere that Judo's founder Dr. Jigoro Kano once mentioned after watching an Aikido demonstration by O'Sensei that THAT was indeed true Budo.

Maybe Kano had been searching for the secret to easily achieve "Ju" in his Judo, but could not until he saw Aikido. Kano in fact invited O'Sensei to join his Kodokan, be did not because O'Sensei had already established his own school.

What do you think of this??

Flintstone
11-24-2010, 01:43 AM
That Kano thought aiki was a superior body skill than "just" ju.

grondahl
11-24-2010, 03:16 AM
I think that there is a big difference between reading Kanos statement about aikido like "aikido is THE true budo" and "aikido is A true budo"


However, I do remember reading from somewhere that Judo's founder Dr. Jigoro Kano once mentioned after watching an Aikido demonstration by O'Sensei that THAT was indeed true Budo.
.....
What do you think of this??

Demetrio Cereijo
11-24-2010, 05:38 AM
However, I do remember reading from somewhere that Judo's founder Dr. Jigoro Kano once mentioned after watching an Aikido demonstration by O'Sensei that THAT was indeed true Budo.

Maybe Kano had been searching for the secret to easily achieve "Ju" in his Judo, but could not until he saw Aikido. Kano in fact invited O'Sensei to join his Kodokan, be did not because O'Sensei had already established his own school.

What do you think of this??

I think accuracy is underrated in today's world.

In October of 1930, Professor Kano paid a special visit to the founder at the temporary Mejiro Dojo. I have heard it said that he even commented, This is what I call the ideal budo; that is to say, the true and genuine judo. After Professor Kano returned to his Kodokan he told one of his close associates:

To tell the truth I would like to have Ueshiba here at the Kodokan, but since he is a master in his own right, that is quite impossible. As a second choice I would like to send some of our own talent to train with Ueshiba and try to promote an exchange between the two systems.

A few days later he sent Minoru Mochizuki and Jiro Takeda to study under the founder. I have in my possession Professor Kanos very polite letter on the matter
Source: Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Aiki News #59

Cliff Judge
11-24-2010, 09:52 AM
DR jujutsu & aikijujutsu are not different names for the same thing. They are in fact...different. I think the disconnect here is that what some aikidoka think is aiki is really just ju. Don't take my word for it but research what DR aiki is/looks like and then compare it to aikido's aiki.

You may discover what you are calling aiki isn't what DR calls aiki & is in fact just another extrapolation of the ju principle. Just my 2 cents.

I am not familiar with differences between the syllabi, but my assumption is that the techniques on the jujutsu scroll can be performed with aiki, and that if I were to watch Konda Sensei perform them at an embu, he would be performing them with aiki.

Do I have that wrong?

Kevin Leavitt
11-24-2010, 01:49 PM
I have worked with a few exceptional judoka that seem to understand the concept of aiki as well.

Eric Joyce
11-24-2010, 07:11 PM
I am not familiar with differences between the syllabi, but my assumption is that the techniques on the jujutsu scroll can be performed with aiki, and that if I were to watch Konda Sensei perform them at an embu, he would be performing them with aiki.

Do I have that wrong?

Hi Cliff,

Let me be sure to state up front that I am not a DR practitioner, nor do I claim to be an expert in that art (so any who are, please feel free to correct any errors I make), but the basic answer to your question is... yes. DR jujutsu can be done with aiki too (but then it becomes aikijujutsu technically, no?) or it can be done without aiki... but even if done without aiki it's still jujutsu with the "ju" principle in place and active.

Flintstone
11-25-2010, 09:45 AM
I can play tennis with Aiki. That doesn't turn tennis into aikido...

ChrisHein
11-25-2010, 01:48 PM
I can play tennis with Aiki. That doesn't turn tennis into aikido...

Perfectly stated.

Chris Evans
08-21-2012, 08:41 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. Groundwork was first discovered right after the first guy who fell to the ground in a fight and fought from there. That probably happen right after the first case of being caught having an affair with another caveman's woman. Or the first caveman stealing food from another.

I am not surprised to see the Judo moves at all. ( I don't practice Judo so I am going off that it was Judo ). Before BJJ and it's popularity there was Judo. I think it is a stable in all Japanese martial arts used in feudal times not to go to the ground which spawns the concept of, to defeat your opponent you must first be successful with kuzushi. You lose in Sumo if you go to the ground first before the other guy. Japanese martial combatants didn't want to go to the ground in all those centuries of war, right?

Spartans, Greeks and Romans had wrestling/groundwork. But, I don't think either of them as soldiers in combat wanted to go to the ground on the battlefield. I think that would be the last place the wanted to go.

BJJ made it popular for many people to think that it was an advantageous position to fight from to go to the ground and do ground work their way. And Kudos to that art for being good at it, in they arena. But it is sad to think that there might be any indication that people will think BJJ pioneered or was the father, mother of all ground work. And that- yes, fights do go to the ground - no other art ever thought and developed ways to fight when on the ground other than BJJ.

ahh, interesting. Thanks.

Kevin Leavitt
08-21-2012, 02:38 PM
Interesting, but not an opinion shared by those of us in BJJ or Judo.

I'm always happy to discuss grappling and ground work since it is my passion. So please feel free to ask as it seems you have an interest.

lars beyer
08-22-2012, 02:42 PM
Interesting, but not an opinion shared by those of us in BJJ or Judo.

I'm always happy to discuss grappling and ground work since it is my passion. So please feel free to ask as it seems you have an interest.

Maybe its a stupid question, but do you think suwari waza is usefull in a ground fight ?

grondahl
08-22-2012, 03:07 PM
Maybe its a stupid question, but do you think suwari waza is usefull in a ground fight ?

Im not Kevin (and not even close to his depth of experience in bjj/sw) but: No.

Kevin Leavitt
08-22-2012, 03:12 PM
Not useful in the context of the exercise, but the principles of the movement are the same for Guard work. In fact, I was teaching a class last week and demo'd surwari waza and the connection to the guard. The basic movements and use of hips, center of gravity, and posture are the same.

Kevin Leavitt
08-22-2012, 03:14 PM
Also, if you look at knee on belly and transitioning to it, there are many good principles embodied in suwari waza

Kevin Leavitt
08-22-2012, 03:17 PM
Sorry for multiple post. If u are dealing with weapons and controlling your opponent on the ground, I think transitioning between levels, yeah good fundamentals in aikido drills and exercises. That said, it ain't fighting and there is so much more that must be considered...but foundational skills...yes much embodied in good waza.

lars beyer
08-22-2012, 05:12 PM
Im not Kevin (and not even close to his depth of experience in bjj/sw) but: No.

Ups.. sorry.. wrong post, right question..thanks..
:o
Time for me to go to bed.. thought I had asked you the question by mistake..

lars beyer
08-22-2012, 05:18 PM
Sorry for multiple post. If u are dealing with weapons and controlling your opponent on the ground, I think transitioning between levels, yeah good fundamentals in aikido drills and exercises. That said, it ain't fighting and there is so much more that must be considered...but foundational skills...yes much embodied in good waza.

Thanks, the reason I ask was a prison guard I trained with some years ago, he said he used suwari waza
techniques regularly when he had to subdue violent inmates and the fight went to the ground.

Kevin Leavitt
08-23-2012, 05:45 AM
Then it sounds like his interpretation of surwari waza was beneficial to him and he found context in the form and practice.

I personally have found much in similarity to what I do in BJJ or combatives foundationally manifested in aikido.

I think this is a very reasonable thing seeing how aikido is supposed to be based on sound foundational principles of basic and correct movements and realizing efficiencies.

However, while that is the case....I think there is a BIG difference between theory and practice.

I think this is why aikido and BJJ can be great complementary practices. My aikido practice places a priority on foundational skills, core, internal strength etc with a low priority on application, tactics, techniques, and proceedures. My BJJ practice places a high priority on tactical success using foundational skills, core, internal strength etc.

The issue is not the practices, but the practicioners that are usually not adequately experienced and jump HUGE gaps in understanding and reach conclusions about application and thus, misrepresent, or mis-apply what they are in reality learning.