Aikido and striking arts

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[Largo]

Hey all,
I was just reading some of the old posts...aikido vs. this and that art, and posts about the amount of striking in aikido and comparing it to boxing or karate.
Anyways, to make a long story short, I`ve studied a number of martial arts (feel free to check the profile) including Karate and Muay thai (still not down with the Tae bo scene though :D ). Based on a lot of the posts here, it doesn`t seem like many people do much in the way of striking, or say that they have previous experience in other arts, so they are okay.
This seems kinda surprising to me, as that in my dojo, we spend a fair amount of time training in atemi, and that the atemi in my Aikido dojo is actually stronger than in most karate dojos I`ve seen (and a heck of a lot faster too). So I`m curious about others who came from striking arts. What do you think of your dojo`s atemi? How would you rate it with your previous training?

[unsound000]

I've done kenpo and some other stuff. All of the emphasis in my current dojo is on relaxation, taking falls, proper technique, etc. The strikes are all "hidden" pretty much until black belt level. We practice some kicks...Basically the professor knows A LOT of atemi but he just focuses on the basic escape or lock or whatever. It used to drive me crazy because I could see all of the proper strikes that would fit within the technique and he would demonstrate a little ooocasionally so I knew he knew and just chose not to teach it. So, to answer your question the atemi for beginners is decent but not as good as an above average karate school. (Some of the shodans focus on atemi.) But the atemi gets awesome at 2nd or third dan when the professor starts fitting it in.

Originally posted by Largo
Hey all,
I was just reading some of the old posts...aikido vs. this and that art, and posts about the amount of striking in aikido and comparing it to boxing or karate.
Anyways, to make a long story short, I`ve studied a number of martial arts (feel free to check the profile) including Karate and Muay thai (still not down with the Tae bo scene though :D ). Based on a lot of the posts here, it doesn`t seem like many people do much in the way of striking, or say that they have previous experience in other arts, so they are okay.
This seems kinda surprising to me, as that in my dojo, we spend a fair amount of time training in atemi, and that the atemi in my Aikido dojo is actually stronger than in most karate dojos I`ve seen (and a heck of a lot faster too). So I`m curious about others who came from striking arts. What do you think of your dojo`s atemi? How would you rate it with your previous training?

[Tim Griffiths]

Originally posted by Largo
Hey all,
I was just reading some of the old posts...aikido vs. this and that art, and posts about the amount of striking in aikido and comparing it to boxing or karate.
Anyways, to make a long story short, I`ve studied a number of martial arts (feel free to check the profile) including Karate and Muay thai (still not down with the Tae bo scene though :D ). Based on a lot of the posts here, it doesn`t seem like many people do much in the way of striking, or say that they have previous experience in other arts, so they are okay.
This seems kinda surprising to me, as that in my dojo, we spend a fair amount of time training in atemi, and that the atemi in my Aikido dojo is actually stronger than in most karate dojos I`ve seen (and a heck of a lot faster too). So I`m curious about others who came from striking arts. What do you think of your dojo`s atemi? How would you rate it with your previous training?

My current sensei came from karate, so the atemi in the dojo is reasonable. No-one's punching holes in the walls, but we do train in atemi once every blue moon.

I think the purpose of atemi in aikido is different to that of striking in, say, karate. Take the atemi to the face at the beginning of katadori ikkyo as an example: the aim isn't to break bones, but to shift uke's balance backwards/sideways (and to give his other hand something to do). Similarly in the traditional way of doing shomenuchi ikkyo - the strike to the ribs is to take the balance rather than finish 'em off (see the photos in O-sensei's book).

This is modern aikido, of course. I get the feeling from the early aikibudo/Daito ryu that the idea was 'enter, smack them hard, if that ends it then fine, if not then do ikkyo or whatever'. Ueshiba softened up the atemi to aid in kuzushi.

Tim

[Thalib]

Not stronger, nor weaker, it's different but quite effective nonetheless. It is also quite efficient in the use of energy.

The atemi that I was taught was a natural movement of the body. Even though it might not hurt (actually it shouldn't), atemi in Aikido could bring down an opponent as well as any other Aikido techniques.

I've actually felt an atemi that didn't hurt at all, but I was actually thrown by the atemi.

[Ghost Fox]

I've done some tae kwon do and free style karate in my day. I have to say that the atemis in my dojo are almost nonexistent. The only time an atemi really show up is during jo and bokken dori. Every once in a while my sensei will point out atemis for a particular technique, but he does not like us to practice them in class. He feels they're too dangerous and that atemi take away with blending and fluidity of movement.

I have to admit it really doesn't stop me from slipping atemis into my waza, and my sensei seems to give me room to experiment as long as I'm careful. I agree with Tim that the primary purpose of atemi is not to cause physical damage to uke (Although it's a definite plus :D), but to aid in breaking the uke's kuzushi. I do agree with my sensei's point on atemi must not take away from the fluidity of a technique. When I throw an atemi it has to be nearly invisible, part of the overall movement of the waza, like an elbow in uke's back during Kotegaeshi tenkan or a quickly moving hand a quarter of an inch from uke's face. I don't think the atemi should break up the movement of the technique. Any pause provides uke an opportunity to regain his center and launch a counter attack.

:triangle: :circle: :square:

[Arianah]

Originally posted by Ghost Fox
I don't think the atemi should break up the movement of the technique.

When you are shown where to strategically place atemi, it will ultimately break up your technique . . . until it becomes interwoven with it. As with anything else, it has to become second nature with the rest of the technique before it is smoothly incorporated.
My sensei loves atemi, and uses it in nearly every technique, but it is so smooth that it moves like his technique has been executed without it, but you can either see it or feel the contact. So once again, it's just a matter of practice, practice, practice. (sigh) ;)

[ian]

As far as I'm aware, in aiki-jitsu (as in many traditional martial arts) there are 3 levels of training. In the first level it is very stationary with lots of strikes and almost kata like movements (but in pairs). In the second level there are less strikes and more movement. In the third level there are no (few) strikes and complete blending.

I've often wondered whether this is the best way to instruct with aikido as well, cos although belnding is the best (most effective) way to overcome an opponent, it is also difficult to get the timing and distance right and therefore it can be useful to have solid basics to drop back on. Also it helps to put the aikido techniques into context. (for example look at Ueshibas 'Budo' and you'll notice the tenkan version of ikkyo is effectively a defence from the irimi version of ikkyo which involves two atemis).

Ian

[shihonage]

Originally posted by ian
Also it helps to put the aikido techniques into context. (for example look at Ueshibas 'Budo' and you'll notice the tenkan version of ikkyo is effectively a defence from the irimi version of ikkyo which involves two atemis).


I always thought the ikkyo tenkan's purpose was to trip the attacker's buddies as they're coming to his "rescue".

[jimvance]

Originally posted by Largo
This seems kinda surprising to me, as that in my dojo, we spend a fair amount of time training in atemi, and that the atemi in my Aikido dojo is actually stronger than in most karate dojos I`ve seen (and a heck of a lot faster too). So I`m curious about others who came from striking arts. What do you think of your dojo`s atemi? How would you rate it with your previous training?
Tomiki and Yoshinkai Aikido train in atemi as a form of kata. The first techniques learned in the Tomiki Junana Hon Kata (or Randori no Kata) are atemi waza.
However, I think it is safe to say that atemi is not simply learning to strike. The Gorin no Sho talks about the difference between utsu and ataru. These are the root words for the names "uchi" and "ate(mi)". Without seeing and understanding the differences, I think most people do not have a clear and identifiable definition of atemi. Without knowing all teachers and teaching styles, I have no reference to make this a general observation, so please take what I say with a grain of salt (or several grains).
Ask yourself the question: When do the attacks (shomen uchi, etc.) stop being uchi (utsu) and become atemi (ataru)? How does this relate to karate or other striking arts?

Jim Vance

[Keith R Lee]

Atemi is a very good thing, and something we practice at my dojo often. This comes from having an instructor who is also a 6th dan in Karate. :p Not to drag this thread in a different direction but one thing I have heard from different shihans while abroad was to be sure that I don't get caught up in thinking atemi has to be a strike or even physical. I can't help but think of the Back to the Future movies, where Micheal J. Fox's character would go: "Hey! Look at the space shuttle!" The goons would turn and look and then he would hit them in the face.

Now while something that simplistic would not work the idea is sound. Atemi is often used to unnbalance one's opponent in order to follow up with a technique. I see no reason why it cannot be other things.

One time in the dojo, a woman, 1st kyu, was practicing 4 on 1 randori. At one point her gi got pulled fairly low on her shoulder, almost coming off. As she spun to the next uke, she opened her gi jacket wide(she had a sports bra/tank top on), the 2 ukes (both guys) heading at her both fumbled, and she tossed one into the other. Everyone at the dojo laughed. Great atemi.

[Creature_of_the_id]

hehehe, I like that story Keith.
one of my other favorite 'atemis' or distractions of this kind is clapping.
most if not all aikidoka and other martial artists are trained to respond the sound of a clap. we stop we, we bow, we sit and watch demonstration.
just before the attack clap your hands and watch your uke hesistate or become distracted for a moment.
also stops everyone else in the class and gets you some nasty looks from your instructor.. but it can be very effective.
;)