Daito Ryu's Aiki, Structure, and Leverage

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[Rocky Izumi]

If uke's structure is better, no angle will change the outcome -- it won't work. Resistance is for those who don't have good structure, and if they don't have good structure, then kotegaeshi will work. Changing an angle is just jujutsu. yeah, it'll work for those resisting (see above sentence). But come into contact with someone who has structure and angles don't matter.

Reread Ellis Amdur's post here on AikiWeb about Tomiki holding his hand out to judo players. No amount of angles will work on someone who has structure, or as some people call it -- aiki.

Want to make kotegaeshi work with resistance -- work on having better structure/aiki.

Having the correct angular position in relation to Uke is a key part of aikido and probably what you mean by "aiki."

PS I am unsure what you mean by "aiki." It seems like you are using it as a catchall for something that makes things work in aikido. This is not a flame, just a question for clarification. Rock

Rock

[rob_liberti]

Having the correct angular position in relation to Uke is a key part of aikido and probably what you mean by "aiki."

PS I am unsure what you mean by "aiki." It seems like you are using it as a catchall for something that makes things work in aikido. This is not a flame, just a question for clarification. Rock

Rock

I actually think the terms go something like this:

Internal Power - maintaining the 6 (some say 8) harmonies of intentions (which is easiest to do with good structure).

Aiki - applying that internal harmony to someone touching you and bringing them into your harmony.

Here is my basic opinion on all techniques:

As long as one has superior internal harmony (intention ability) their technique (like nikkyo) should work. That typically means the person with the better structure. And that is why we say things like it's best to do kokyunage first, get uke's mind on their balance and off of resisting technique for a split second (of "uke's focus betrayal" - my term) before applying the technique. As structure and intention improves relative to uke, you can get away with less kokyu nage and move into what I would consider kokyu rokyu - and some call aiki.

Rob

[Chris Parkerson]

If uke's structure is better, no angle will change the outcome -- it won't work. Resistance is for those who don't have good structure, and if they don't have good structure, then kotegaeshi will work. Changing an angle is just jujutsu. yeah, it'll work for those resisting (see above sentence). But come into contact with someone who has structure and angles don't matter.

Reread Ellis Amdur's post here on AikiWeb about Tomiki holding his hand out to judo players. No amount of angles will work on someone who has structure, or as some people call it -- aiki.

Want to make kotegaeshi work with resistance -- work on having better structure/aiki.

I can appreciate the development of structure as well as the use of geometric angles. But no single study is the final cat's meow in performing Aiki-type techniques. What ever happened to the old adage , "give me a lever long enough and I can move the world?"

[rob_liberti]

Chris,

Well I believe that the point is that there pretty much isn't any lever long enough to move me if you aren't doing it with structure at least as developed at mine.

Rob

[Chris Parkerson]

Chris,

Well I believe that the point is that there pretty much isn't any lever long enough to move me if you aren't doing it with structure at least as developed at mine.

Rob

agreed, unless we use an inanimate lever (machines have their own structure, right?)

The issue in this thred appears to be one of intent. Is the opponent using structure to hide his center of gravity (I.e. Punking you) or is he using structure to be cooperative as defined by Kevin.

Yes, I use my relaxed structure to make my own leverage come from the bottom of my feet and perhaps even longer with mental extension. The longer the lever, the less force is experienced at the location of my grip.

[Chris Parkerson]

Chris,

Well I believe that the point is that there pretty much isn't any lever long enough to move me if you aren't doing it with structure at least as developed at mine.

Rob

Rob,

You got me thinking a bit here. I recently moved my refrigerator and did so with little effort. Now it has great structure. It has a wide four cornered base, a good amount of weight and no joints or soft tissue.
I used a variety of physical principles to do so. One of them was to bypass both its weight and "grounded structure". If anything, I used its structure to make my work less difficult. I used the refrigerator's structure against itself.

I also recently felled a 35 foot tree. One principle I used was the same as with the fridge. I loaded its structure (floated it) until I could drop enough weight on it that it could not remain erect.

Now KG can be performed the same way against cooperative structur and often against pinking structure., I can drop a good 240 pounds on a specific point in space via relaxation. Even against a static posture, the timing of (1) connection to the center, (2) the slight float and (3) the dropping of 240# of weight is pretty massive. It can bend large men at their waist (or hurt their lower backs). I suggest that I have (1) bypassed structure or (2) defeated it.

Now if the biped structure moves, well all movement has weakness as Jen states, and that is why we have many techniques.

[rob_liberti]

I keep reading this senitment and it is just not true.
I just had someone tell me that a horse cannot completely over power them so why would they think that someone with internal power and aiki could.

The answer is simply that a horse (or a refrigerator as the case may be) is not trained to instantly weaken the person trying to manipulate it.

The ONLY way you are not going to get weakened is if you have comparable intentions/structure as the uke with internal power and aiki. That's it. Your body cannot make a big enough lever. And even If you use a stick, it is reasonable that I can probably weaken you through the connection of the stick - but I'd have to train specifically for that for a while! :)

Rob

[MM]

Having the correct angular position in relation to Uke is a key part of aikido and probably what you mean by "aiki."

PS I am unsure what you mean by "aiki." It seems like you are using it as a catchall for something that makes things work in aikido. This is not a flame, just a question for clarification. Rock

Rock

Hi Rock,

Rob L. posted some definitions about "internal power" and "aiki" that I think apply. But, let me see if I can clarify a bit.

When I work with some peers in aikido who haven't trained at all in the "internal power" exercises, then I'm finding that they can't get wrist locks to work on me. I've stood on one foot, sideways with my hand extended and they can't get kotegaeshi to work, no matter what angular position they take. (Obviously, weight matters here. If someone decided to jump onto my outstretched hand, I'm going to drop my hand down. There's no way I can hold up that kind of weight on an outstretched hand, but then that isn't kotegaeshi.)

BUT, I can't do that with peers that are working on the "internal power". I have to have both feet on the ground and work at keeping structure because my peers are just as good as I am at "internal power".

AND when I work with those who have much, much better "internal power", I find that it doesn't matter what I do, kotegaeshi works for them -- anytime, anyplace, anywhere. Angular position is not a factor. Plus, those that have excellent jujutsu skills can overcome my structure because, well, I've only been doing this for a little over a year. My "internal power" sort of sucks still. Good skill can overcome it. Give me a few years and I don't think that'll be a factor.

I think that angular position is jujutsu. Having very good angular position can create some excellent jujutsu, but I'm starting to believe that it isn't necessarily "aiki" as it relates to what made Ueshiba powerful. Adding "aiki" to jujutsu creates some remarkable things, though. :)

Mark

[Chris Parkerson]

I keep reading this senitment and it is just not true.
I just had someone tell me that a horse cannot completely over power them so why would they think that someone with internal power and aiki could.

The answer is simply that a horse (or a refrigerator as the case may be) is not trained to instantly weaken the person trying to manipulate it.

The ONLY way you are not going to get weakened is if you have comparable intentions/structure as the uke with internal power and aiki. That's it. Your body cannot make a big enough lever. And even If you use a stick, it is reasonable that I can probably weaken you through the connection of the stick - but I'd have to train specifically for that for a while! :)

Rob

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the response. I suspect that your statement about becoming "weakened" is not about telekinesis or quantum influences so I suspect you are simply talking about what has been called "the four levels", i.e., skew the "levels" and the structure becomes unstable.

Now, I first encountered the CMA-style of internal structure back in 1975 (I was 22 years old) when a senior student of William C. C. Chen bounced me a good 20 feet. I went airborne and landed on my arse. It did make an impression on me and set me into a pretty serious study of CMA. At least as serious as my budget could handle.

But Rob John, Mike Sigman and Dan have all told me I do not have the structure they are talking about. I have to admit that I discontinued my CMA structural training because a "kink" in my low back got worse over the years and my structural training exercises did not heal the muscular imbalance that (on some days) allows me hardly any resistive structure at all. Nevertheless, "in adversity comes opportunity", as the fortune cookie says.

I have found structure that bypasses my own kinks through relaxation and in spite of my inherent structural weakness. I have bypassed my own potential structure with a structure of necessity.

Yesterday, Moe Stevens, his son and grandson came out to help haul away the wood I had cut down from that tree I mentioned. It was a bad day for my low back muscle imbalance. Nevertheless, I and two others lifted a 13 foot twisted branch with a base diameter of 10 inches and a tip diameter of about 3 inches. It weighed about 300 pounds.

The guy in front lost his footing and dropped his end. I was in the middle near a curve in the wood. As it fell, it began to torque and a 6 inch stub with a 6 inch diameter dug into my ribs. Now gravity and torque with 300 pounds of mass attacked my ribs. For the first nanosecond, I braced.

By the second nanosecond, I instinctively became what I call "single weighted" with my center of gravity over my weighted leg. This gave me the ability to sink, extend my unweighted leg and absorb the force without getting my ribs broken or falling and landing on my arse again. No bruise this morning either.

So, my bad back and its inherent lack of structure, was bypassed by my ability to use three principles. (1) Tai Chi-style walking, (2) riding energy without losing posture and (3) "suck in and spit out" using redirection under a crisis.

That branch was fresh live wood (no rotting). Its structure was sound. Yet, I never became unstable when it struck me. I see the same principles hold with KG under randori conditions. Only, I turn the tables. I use my relaxed weight and specific points to overwhelm someone else's structure. If they can step out of it, I suggest I made the movement too big. If done well, it is not about my structure as much as it is about my subtlety. It is just physics.

By the way, I would love to continue this discussion in real time and face to face. I am sorry I missed the Akuzawa seminar. I had business that got in the way. But if you want to attend Hal von Luebbert's seminar in Ohio, I am sure Moe and Hal would give you the podium for a period of time to show us what you mean. They are both great guys with no agendas or attitudes.

[tuturuhan]

Creating Opening II

Joint and wrist techniques are far more effective against a weapons attack. This is what most joint locks and throws were originally intended...as "secondary defenses" to the armed attack.

The weapon "offensively" enhances and multiplies the force of the attack with the added dimension of distance and technology (hand vs. wood vs steel point and edge). Certainly, if given the choice we would all use a gun vs. a stick in a life or death encounter. Certainly, with two armed opponents the "primary offense" is using the weapon at hand.

Yet, the addition of the weapon in terms of distance, creates an "additional joint" that allows greater leverage to apply technique. It is a potential achilles heal. The tip of the weapon (bo, jo, bokken, nunchaku) moves with speed and variance. BUT THE HAND that is holding it no longer moves with speed. It is locked into place given the holding of the weapon.

Thus, the weapon itself can be used as a "lever" to uproot the wrist, elbow and shoulder as the attacker continues to hold onto the weapon. (Archimedes said "Give me a long enough lever and a fulcrum and I can lift the earth). The length of the weapon creates a greater magnitude of potential energy.

As to the "empty hand", I always tell my students, "Pop'em in the head first and then apply the wrist technique/throw."

[rob_liberti]

Chris,

I'm sure you have developed some sort of structure. I think Dan (and the others) have probably taken it a bit farther than most. If you have so much more structure than your uke to the level I'm aspiring to then I would assume you need to be on my side of this debate that structure/internal harmony/and the skills to bring others into your own harmony is the most important aspect and that compared to that leverage doesn't matter much.

I'm willing to show anyone what I'm talking about. I think it would probably best that I actually get a bit further in my own development before I am granted center stage at someone else's event for any amount of time! But I'll continue to improve and if you are still interested in some time, then by all means I'll come and share.

Rob

[Chris Parkerson]

Hi Tuturuhan,

If you read my last post, I would be interested in knowing if what I am speaking about is similar to your "Female" energy. To be specific, I only provide resistance until I feel a connection with the force coming at me.... The I blend with a suck-in or baqua foot motion, redirect the force and spit it out (uproot) of drop weight on a throwing point.

[tuturuhan]

Hi MTL, Chris,

Structure to no structure, form to formlessness...mass to energy...energy to mass.

Yin/female energy is deep, dark and hidden. She absorbs your attack by using the "circle", a black hole. In her formlessness, their is an intelligence that subtly guides and directs. Before you know it you are trapped in the "center" of her web.

You cannot harm her. She is a wisp of wind, water that envelopes the most pointed of swords.

Yang/male energy is "structure and form" birthed by major Yin. It is the vessel by which female accomplishes her bidding. She is "the face that launches a thousand ships". She is the Goddess Kali, death and destruction are in her wake. Birth and creativity is her hope.

[rob_liberti]

Popping someone in the head first before applying a technique does what? Breaks the uke's structure... When you "create an opening" you are just "de-structuring" someone BEFORE you apply a lever which means leverage is seconardy in importance. I'm sorry if I'm belaboring this point. I've been primarily communicating to a 4 year old and I'm developing a habit of breaking things down to simpler and simpler terms.

Rob

[jennifer paige smith]

My pleasure. We educators (I'm only an educator wannabe at this point) have to stick together. :D

I really like this part! It speaks to a big part of my own raison d'etre, if I may get a bit French. :p And I agree sharing what we each experience of our training is a pretty cool thing. I know this kind of forum is no substitute for hitting the mat, but it does offer so much food for thought.
Take care,
Matt

You can get as french as you'd like. so long as you keep your tongue in.:D

Raison d'etre:
You are here for no other purpose than to realize your inner divinity and manifest your innate enlightenment.-OSensei

Now that I'm so wise, I'll leave you little people to your talk. Ha-Ha.

[jennifer paige smith]

Popping someone in the head first before applying a technique does what? Breaks the uke's structure... When you "create an opening" you are just "de-structuring" someone BEFORE you apply a lever which means leverage is seconardy in importance. I'm sorry if I'm belaboring this point. I've been primarily communicating to a 4 year old and I'm developing a habit of breaking things down to simpler and simpler terms.

Rob

"Open your mind. Use your mind. Think. Think. Think."
- A 4 year old I know

Ya know, when we have such developed skills and such confidence in them, what does it hurt to relax one's position for a moment and take a little bit in? Maybe it turns out to be simply poetry, maybe it doesn't resonate with you, but maybe it might open a door to friendship and communication among exploring people. If not, you've got everything you already know to return to.
-A 39 year old I know

[tuturuhan]

"Open your mind. Use your mind. Think. Think. Think."
- A 4 year old I know

Ya know, when we have such developed skills and such confidence in them, what does it hurt to relax one's position for a moment and take a little bit in? Maybe it turns out to be simply poetry, maybe it doesn't resonate with you, but maybe it might open a door to friendship and communication among exploring people. If not, you've got everything you already know to return to.
-A 39 year old I know

Jen,

"A Whack on the Right Side of the Brain" Eureaka!!! (Hmmmm...copyright infringement?)

Best,
Joe

[rob_liberti]

Jennifer, I think I paid my dues listening to the leverage and finesse approach! I don't think I would have come to my new opinion if I weren't open to being convinced awaay from what I already knew...

If somone wants to make a compelling argument on why leverage is just as important as structure then I'm still waiting for it. It's just so basic. You need good structure to apply leverage...

[jennifer paige smith]

Jennifer, I think I paid my dues listening to the leverage and finesse approach! I don't think I would have come to my new opinion if I weren't open to being convinced awaay from what I already knew...

If somone wants to make a compelling argument on why leverage is just as important as structure then I'm still waiting for it. It's just so basic. You need good structure to apply leverage...

Those are pretty cheap dues.

But I get where you're coming from and I genuinely wonder what your next opinion will be.

Thanks

[tuturuhan]

Jennifer, I think I paid my dues listening to the leverage and finesse approach! I don't think I would have come to my new opinion if I weren't open to being convinced awaay from what I already knew...

If somone wants to make a compelling argument on why leverage is just as important as structure then I'm still waiting for it. It's just so basic. You need good structure to apply leverage...

Simple...try erecting a structure without leverage.

[Chris Parkerson]

Popping someone in the head first before applying a technique does what? Breaks the uke's structure... When you "create an opening" you are just "de-structuring" someone BEFORE you apply a lever which means leverage is seconardy in importance. I'm sorry if I'm belaboring this point. I've been primarily communicating to a 4 year old and I'm developing a habit of breaking things down to simpler and simpler terms.

Rob

popping someone in the head or anywhere else may I'd may not create instability. In my early "yang" years around 1980 I wrote an article in "Survival Magazine". Part of the article demonstrated how structure could jam a front thrusting kick and uproot the kicker perhaps damaging his rear knee in the process. My stomach was developed for that purpose but my low back pain definitely prevented me from becoming awesome with such skill.

Still, in the mid 1990's during the earlly UFC craze, one competitor was perturbed that I had ground skills and once we stood up again, he plugged me by surprise in the gut with a short fist. This time I kept structure and let both feet "ungrip" the floor. It moved me about 2" straight back and there was no penetration.

In the early 2000's I started to get good with standing rooted and absorbing blows with relaxed energy that absorbed the force without losing stability.

Now days I prefer to just ride the energy with posture and Tai Chi style weight shift, the five style step and a bit of Baqua circle.

All of these forms of energy can neutralize a punch or kick.

But if you stretch out your arms and try to catch a 240 pound weight your stability is going to go down the tubes unless you are the incredible hulk. A good KG canpriduce enough force to overwhelm in the same manner as long as you are accurate. Far enough away to maximize stress on the structure yet close enough to keep joe's feet glued to the ground via friction.

[Chris Parkerson]

If somone wants to make a compelling argument on why leverage is just as important as structure then I'm still waiting for it. It's just so basic. You need good structure to apply leverage...

With the utmost respect for you and your years of training,
please consider the destruction of the Spanish Armada as an example of leverage without structure.

The Spanish galleons were large, strong, heavy and powerful. Great Structure. But they were decimated by wind and water... both structureless like Joe is talking about yet very powerful.

That the wind could blow on unbending masts while the sea uprooted their balasts, is the key. their very structure was what defeated them as Yin forces won the day.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hmmm, who has said that the structure Rob is talking about is not flexible. A reed has structure...but it bends in the wind.

B,
R

[clwk]

I just had someone tell me that a horse cannot completely over power them so why would they think that someone with internal power and aiki could.
Rob, if you are going to indirectly cite my comments, then please get them right. I will be happy to continue this discussion proper on the 'Daito Ryu and Harm' thread -- as soon as Dan responds to me.

I do want to make it clear that I was *not* saying a horse could not overpower me. On the contrary, it certainly can. What I said is that I have a greater power/skill differential over my two-year-old than a horse does over me. This was in response to your statement that Dan (yes, you were talking about Dan in particular) is to me as I am to my two-year-old. The main point of my remark had to do with the extremity of using a two-year-old as an example of the level of domination possible.

I think it is especially disingenuous for you to talk about 'internal power and aiki' as a factor I disregard. I have been very clear that I think those buzzwords are important. The point I think you may be missing is that in order for your hypothetical 'aiki master' to be as much better than our bumbling Dad than the Dad is better than the two-year-old -- then Dad has to be very bumbling indeed. For every incremental gain Dad makes in skill and power, then the 'aiki master' actually has to be better by the *square* of that increase in order to keep the ratios the same. The whole flaw in your argument is in assuming that Dad cannot possibly have any skill/power of his own. If you really stop and think about your premise, it becomes absurd very quickly -- because what happens if the 'aiki master' has a two-year-old son of his own? Imagine the über-aiki-master you would have to hypothesize to make *this Dad* look bumbling.

The reason I mentioned the horse was not as an example of lack of power or even lack of 'skill'. If you think a horse is comparable to a refrigerator in any way, you really must avoid ever being near one -- or you *will* get hurt. My point is that your argument posits someone who is simply exponentially better than *everyone*. I thought and continue to think it is a silly position. You may label this as 'one-upsmanship', excessive precision, or twisting and stretching words. However, I don't see any way to engage in a substantive conversation without taking seriously the statements you make. The reason I do that is to find out whether you really mean them or not -- especially when they strike me as being so exaggerated. I would ask you to either use a similar level of precision when citing my arguments -- or else refrain from doing so, since I do not want to be an anonymous straw man in the service of your ongoing argument that *nobody else gets it*.

As I said, I'm happy to continue the substantive discussion in the other thread. I am leaving this comment here so that it appear near your remarks, but I wouldn't object or be surprised if Jun moved both your initial comment *and* my response to the other thread.

Again, no hard feelings. If Dan continues to decline to respond to my questions, then I will go ahead and discuss them with you. I hope you understand why I prefer to discuss what I consider to be exaggerated claims made for Dan with Dan himself, as a matter of common courtesy. That way, if Dan does feel the claims are exaggerated, we need not subject ourselves to a silly argument.

Chhi'mèd

[Chris Parkerson]

Hmmm, who has said that the structure Rob is talking about is not flexible. A reed has structure...but it bends in the wind.

B,
R

I do not think anyone has made that assumption. In fact, I suspect that everyone discussing the issue totally respects a well developed structure and would assume flexibility gives structure a distinct advantage.

Flexible structure, as seen in Sonin's Sambo tapes is beautiful and is likely what Joseph Arriola is calling form and formlessness but expressed in acrobatic wrestling style. But I have not seen any of Rob John's tapes that express this part of his skill set. What I have seen is horse stances and cross power strikes and kicks. Of the others, I have seen no tapes.

What I have been told is that structure is weak when expressed through "lead hand-lead foot" attacks (and I can only assume they include "lead hand-lead foot" defenses as well).. I have been told that single weighting and double weighting is different than what I am calling it and in the difference is the crux of the matter.

So I provided an absorbing-type (Systema-type perhaps) drill that included the fluid sequence of (1) providing enough resistance so that I can attach to Uke's the center of gravity (2) floating uke and his structure on initial contact, and (3) using the proper geometric point (defined by him as he is in motion) to drop my weight so that he either bends over, falls or hurts his back trying not to fall or bend over.

Now, I did this on one leg which negated the principles of "cross power" and the idea that the lead foot/lead hand style was inherently weak. After all, if you are on one leg (the right one) and you are using the right arm, there is likely very little cross power to employ.

What was probably not observed (except by the well trained eye) is how I used torque for momentum and the reaction of "gravity pushing back" that then got redirected into my arm (coming through my one-legged stance) to accomplish my goals.
Thus, an old guy with a bad back just used superior mechanical advantage (the principle of the two stroke engine i.e. piston and drive shaft) to counter my opponent's structure.

I PM'd Rob on this but did not get a response. Perhaps he got pre-occupied as I often do as weel. No harm done. Perhaps he would like to give his interpretation publicly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1G3A-ZGd1M

As you can see, as I absorb the blow, energy/force comes out of my body at various places but I did not lose structure either. Neither did I have to overthink the technique in the crux of battle.

To further explain, "throwing point" geometry is deefinitely there. You just do not have to dwell on it.

[Erick Mead]

Internal Power - maintaining the 6 (some say 8) harmonies of intentions (which is easiest to do with good structure). Not a quibble but a clarification of your terms of art. I know what I mean when I use "harmony" in a physical sense (and it has more than one physical meaning, though for related things).

What does it mean when you use it ?

[Erick Mead]

If somone wants to make a compelling argument on why leverage is just as important as structure then I'm still waiting for it. It's just so basic. You need good structure to apply leverage..., Well, it definitely ain't leverage, if it makes you feel better :D. The effective effort arm of the elbow joint for example in a curl is about 1" and the resistance arm is about 10" making 100 pounds of effort necessary to lift, by levering the joint, 10 pounds placed in the hand.

I just don't see a tactical percentage there. Obviously, most people can curl ten pounds, and have at least hundred pounds of elbow actuation available. The question then turn to mechnisms by which tha tsame joint system may be actuated to deliver its full 100 pound payload ...? Not as a lever ... Heavy weightlifters don't lever -- they snatch ... :eek:

[Erick Mead]

I PM'd Rob on this but did not get a response. It's because your mailbox is overstuffed and bouncing. :)

[Chris Parkerson]

, Well, it definitely ain't leverage, if it makes you feel better :D. The effective effort arm of the elbow joint for example in a curl is about 1" and the resistance arm is about 10" making 100 pounds of effort necessary to lift, by levering the joint, 10 pounds placed in the hand.

I just don't see a tactical percentage there. Obviously, most people can curl ten pounds, and have at least hundred pounds of elbow actuation available. The question then turn to mechnisms by which tha tsame joint system may be actuated to deliver its full 100 pound payload ...? Not as a lever ... Heavy weightlifters don't lever -- they snatch ... :eek:

hi Eric,

My pm to rob john was two months ago.
say I am a 4 year old when it comes to engineering. But my idea of the lever is like a crane more exactke. My erect posture has a counter weight that I lost perhaps 40,000 years ago. But my fat arse makes up for the lost tail anyways.

T-Rex would be my idea of a good crane. Big legs, small arms that do their work close to the center of gravity and a great counterweight.

So, I gave up one of my big secrets. Begin with simple machines (inclined plane, lever, fulcrum, etc) and transform them into complex ones (block and tackle; two stroke engine). Thesis: efficient mechanics can overcome someone who has better structure but lacks mechanical advantage.

[eyrie]

Perhaps Rob L was quoting Archimedes, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but there is more than 1 class of levers.... ;)

[rob_liberti]

I don't have a lot of time here.
1 - I do not mean to imprecisely cite anyone - but well it's the best I can do with the situation I have and well feel free to correct anything you feel is misrepresented.

2 - okay, try using a lever that has no structure -> well. actually too many people in aikido are already trying this. good luck with that :) The point here is that structure still freaken comes first.

I'll respond more as time allows.

Rob

[Chris Parkerson]

I don't have a lot of time here.
1 - I do not mean to imprecisely cite anyone - but well it's the best I can do with the situation I have and well feel free to correct anything you feel is misrepresented.

2 - okay, try using a lever that has no structure -> well. actually too many people in aikido are already trying this. good luck with that :) The point here is that structure still freaken comes first.

I'll respond more as time allows.

Rob

I am not sure if you saw my explanation of how wind and water (both structureless) defeated structure by creating a "coupling" on the masts/sails and the keel/ballast of the Spanish Armada, but the implications are still directly related to KG. In essence, we create a coupling by allowing friction and weight to keep uke's foot from moving while we use slight torsion of the arm to connect to the center of gravity and create instability with direction force. In the case of the Armada, wind and water created the coupling.

I would like to challenge you once more. You say that structure trumps leverage. Can anything trump structure? I have heard from my first day in the martial arts that the main tool in my quiver is my mind.... not my structure.

You have heard of the old joke about the two boxers. One kept beating the other even though he was weaker and slower. When the loser asked him why he kept winning, the victor simply said, "You box because you want to, I box because I have to."

Well, my buddy HAL von Luebbert had no choice in the matter. He was inducted into the original group of Special Forces (at age 16) back in the mid 1950's and then sheep dipped into the CIA as a field operative.

After surviving ops in Eastern Europe and Cuba, he left on bad terms. They pursued him lethally but he survived every attack. He has fought because he had to. His experience (1,000 orgnized bouts), along with his cunning and dedicated study of strategy, tactics and techniques, makes him very dangerous.

So, if a guy has structure but has the mental framework of fighting because he wants to rather than fighting because he had to, I would not put my money on him if his opponent was skilled at fighting for his life because he had to.

[rob_liberti]

Chris,

Well sure, mental intention trumps structure. Dan can hold his lines in all sorts of _seemingly_ structurally weak positions. But those mental intentions just end up resulting in an internal physical structure that is more difficult to see.

And I'm certain that if you want to use the leverage of a crane to move Dan you can -- but the crane has a huge structural base.

If you want to discuss the "size of the fight in the dog" compared to the "size of dog in the fight" type thing - fine but for my analysis. you have someone like Hal who won fights who most likely has better structure and leverage than the people he beat up.

If you want to use your own body to leverage me (viciously or not), I'll bet you have a remarkably harder time with that then your typical experience. Try it with Dan or I suspect Mike and you'll start to get the impression that if I had to focus my training effort on something "structure" or "leverage" you'll come up with "structure" an your answer.

Rob
(I'll get back to the others as time permits.)

[rob_liberti]

Those are pretty cheap dues.

But I get where you're coming from and I genuinely wonder what your next opinion will be.

Thanks

Sorry - been meaning to get back to this too.
I'm confused. How many decades of life energy do you have to dedicate to your art before the dues are no longer cheap?

My opinion will change when someone (and I'm not afraid to travel and meet people - even the "scary" people LOL) shows me anything beyond what I know and/or can do. I'm open to the idea of people telling me a friend can do something beyond. I'll just want to meet their friend. :)

So far most of the "other" things I was considering eventually learning in more detail like "soft tissue targeting" and "ground fighting" are now only interesting if they are powered by internal skills.

Having read your posts for some time, it is pretty clear to me that you also love aikido so I'm pretty confident that we'll eventually meet and I think you'll be quickly be very interested in my direction. Because frankly, I've tried so many of the others and nothing is generating the results that direct internal skills development does.

Rob

[Chris Parkerson]

rob,

I have no doubt that Dan, Mike and Rob John are highly prficient martial artists. And I am sure structure is key to their success.

I simply suggest that there is a whole spectrum of training that should be studied to maintain balance. I am sure Dan would agree.

Mental toughness
evasion, distance, angles and zone
striking points
speed strength
general strength and aerobic/anarobic conditioning
technical efficiency
strategy and tactics
timing
structural integrity
internal power
mental extension
mechanical advantage

As I grow older, my fight style has changed out of necessity.i play to my strengths and fight accordingly. To handle 30 year olds requires shrewdness.

I will give you an example. I think I can use pain compliance to destroy structure. But I had to go out of the box to find a successful method. Broken bones, nerve point striking, etc, may or may not destroy structure.
instead, i grab uke's upper lip. Now, it is pretty much impossible to "rip someone's lips off. Ears can rip off but i have never heard a lip ripping off. Now my grip ( thumb and forefinger) can slip off so I better train grip strength. Now train your throws from the lip grip.

It is a bit like leading a cow by a nose ring. You can push on a cow's stru ture all day long but you do not need much effort when pulling on the ring. With the lip grip, you can either crumble a guy or throw him. Strength and nerve point trumped structure.

[rob_liberti]

Chhi'mèd,

Listen bud. I don't have any interest in having a silly one up manship battle of words with you. I tried to qualify my statement with "completely" overpower - which you seem to have misquoted. It is abundantly clear you got my meaning - many times over. I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into perfecting my wording to your satisfaction. Frankly, I'd rather spend any time not with my kid on training solo exercises. I can say this, if you are wondering why Dan hasn't gotten back to you, I suspect he feels similarly.

The deal in that thead and in this one is that internal power and aiki skills provide enough power differential to make the silly and pretty much absurd "aikido techniques" actaully work in real life. That power differential is like the one between an adult and a small child.

You have 2 choices here. 1 - we can stay friendly, and you can HELP clarify and perfect my words to add value, and I'll continue to share my thoughts and knowledge with you as best as I can. 2 - you can end up on my ignore list which is currently is empty. Nothing personal, I am literally unable to put in the amount of time it would require to do things what seems like your way...

Rob

[rob_liberti]

Chris,

No argument on the spectrum. I was arguing that there was something that was the most important. And I am genuine about being willing to share with you. Last night it only took 30 seconds or so for me to hit decent level of structure and stability. Dan showed me the 2 on 1 hold you were talking about. I have had people do that to me before when wrestling with some friends - I didn't know the name. Anyway, my point about KG is that pretty much any angle you like isn't going to take my center - whereas - being drawn into someone elses harmony regardless of the angle/leverage has a very good chance.

Erick,

I am still trying to get back to your post. If I ever miss anything from you please don't take it as an insult and please feel free to remind me in PM. It takes longer for me to think about how to respond to you and well I'm distractable these days. :) I don't actually know right now how to best describe what I mean by internal harmony. I will continue to think about how to descibe what I mean.

Rob

[Chris Parkerson]

rob,
I would say you are lucky to be in Dan's backyard. While I have only had a couple of written correspondences with him, he seems to display professionalism, courtesy and devotion to hard and patient training.

I hope some day he and I can meet. I do suspect, we have some philosophical differences but that is what martial cosmopolitanism is about. If we were all the same, life would be pretty dull.

Structure as being most important?? Most of the time, yes. But pride cometh before the fall. Most of the great historic battles were won by weaker forces that had better strategy or some luck from a friendly god.

Remember the movie "The Patriot". Mel Gibson in the final battle said Cornwallis would take the militia for granted and would expect them to break and run. The continental army just had to wait and watch British ego self destruct their own superior structure Wow, strategy can trump structure too.

[rob_liberti]

strategy can trump structure too.

Of course it CAN, sure. But I would recommend the strategy of putting your focus where it is most likely to help - which is training structure, and then leverage based on that structure.

Rob

[Chris Parkerson]

Of course it CAN, sure. But I would recommend the strategy of putting your focus where it is most likely to help - which is training structure, and then leverage based on that structure.

Rob

We all approach the big elephant from different directions. The one you mention is foundational and great.

Now, if you ended up with a bullet in your back with a partial injury to the spine, (This is Hal's challenge among others. as mentioned in his website so I am not speaking out of turn), structure may not be your best and most useful place to devote the majority of your time. Indeed, every man once engaged in a fight notices quite quickly how little grip strength he really has (That's Hal talking).

How many of us who train have some sort of "inconvenient truth" within our crickety bodies that screams, "I am your greatest teacher. You are going to have to work around me. If you do not listen, you will end up in a wheelchair because of me."

My discussion with Jen's nature spirits have taught me to say, "If it hurts when you go like that, don't go like that." Getting repetitive stress injury from not obeying one's physical infirmities is foolish. One size does not fit all in training.

Perhaps your "joy of throwing" morphs into strategies to drag someone down to a ground fight where your superior grips, relaxations and strength can be maximized.

Or, perhaps like "Tuturuhan" you allow "yang" structure to have its way and be like water (form to formlessness) and keep a blade hidden for the coup de grace.

No one is a superman. Irony has it that once we really get good at using internal arts, we are also probably beyond the age of competition. If this were not the case, there would be people openly declaring they are internal-style fighters and they would be cashing in on the MMA money and such.

Oh well, my 2 cents for this morning.

[Ron Tisdale]

I highly recommend reading "neko no myojutsu"...translated by Karl Friday and others. It's in the Skoss' last book in their series, Keiko Shokon.

In my opinion, in essence, it highlights the issues with focusing on any one method to the exclusion of all others. And I think it is just good reading on top of that.

BUT...I also think it is a mistaken impression that anyone speaking positively of Internal Arts or whatever is suggesting that that should be the sole focus of training. There are some that are delaying other training until they get their foot in the door on those skills. Not my choice, but perfectly understandable if someone wants to really focus **for a time** on just that aspect.

If someone has been training for as long as Rob has, I tend to assume they have run through quite a long list of different things to focus on at different times in their training. If they then choose to focus on what some would call a *basic* area of strength training in Asian Martial arts...that makes perfect sense to me. If there are basic skills that enliven the arts that I missed (at least in terms of being able to really and concretely perform with them)...then you better bet I'm working on that.

Best,
Ron

[Chris Parkerson]

I highly recommend reading "neko no myojutsu"...translated by Karl Friday and others. It's in the Skoss' last book in their series, Keiko Shokon.

In my opinion, in essence, it highlights the issues with focusing on any one method to the exclusion of all others. And I think it is just good reading on top of that.

BUT...I also think it is a mistaken impression that anyone speaking positively of Internal Arts or whatever is suggesting that that should be the sole focus of training. There are some that are delaying other training until they get their foot in the door on those skills. Not my choice, but perfectly understandable if someone wants to really focus **for a time** on just that aspect.

If someone has been training for as long as Rob has, I tend to assume they have run through quite a long list of different things to focus on at different times in their training. If they then choose to focus on what some would call a *basic* area of strength training in Asian Martial arts...that makes perfect sense to me. If there are basic skills that enliven the arts that I missed (at least in terms of being able to really and concretely perform with them)...then you better bet I'm working on that.

Best,
Ron

Boy, well said Ron. I also look forward to reading that book.

Almost 40 years ago, I asked this question of myself....

Would I spend 10 years looking for the right martial master to train me ?
or
Would I train for ten years while putting the intention of finding the perfect martial master out into the universe.

I suspect it has been a little of both and that perfect martial master was a compendium of several folks, all well heeled in their specific take on things.

[HL1978]

Structure is good, but there are other ways of using the body. Its just one of a number of tools.

[rob_liberti]

Thanks Ron.

Just curious, have you actually seen Karl Friday doing kashima?

Chris, I'm not saying if you can't find the best people to help you give up or anything. Just saying after having personally tried a LOT of methods - more than many - and having made some progress that eclictic approach - given all of that experience - I would like to strongly suggest that there is something very important about structure and encougare people not to delude themselves looking for better leverage.

I'm honestly not clear if you were serious about offering my center stage at your event to show you, but I am serious about being willing to share what I'm talking about personally with you when I have developed myself enough to make the point clearly. If not, no hard feelings.

Rob

[Kevin Leavitt]

IMO, structure is everything.

[Chris Parkerson]

rob,

I am sincere. And I can probably get a timeslot at the upcoming seminar. Andit doesn't have to be you giving the demo if you are not comfortable with it yet. Just understand, most of thexattendees will be wrestlers and jujitsu/judo guys.

We just need to clear it with Moe and Hal. I really donor see an issue there. I'll inquire tomorrow.

[rob_liberti]

Okay - but just to be clear you didn't miss the part about "when I have developed myself enough to make the point clearly." did you?

Are you having your event next year? I'll be a lot closer to ready to have something worth sharing...

Rob

[Chris Parkerson]

Okay - but just to be clear you didn't miss the part about "when I have developed myself enough to make the point clearly." did you?

Are you having your event next year? I'll be a lot closer to ready to have something worth sharing...

Rob

Moe will be sponsoring many events now his "new/improved" dojo is completed. This has been his vision all along. His Retirement from high school coaching has given him the time to go full boar into hosting seminars.

Come on out and get to know us...

I am sure he would love to have Dan come out as well.

As far as HAL, well you never know what a year may bring with him. He was talking about getting a sailboat and heading out to sea 12 months ago. This could be his last public seminar for all I know. People who are born hunters just do not like grazing on the same pasture day in and day out.