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Ketsan
07-01-2008, 09:06 AM
Kendo is a martial art that is not for self defense.

I'd dispute that, I'd say kendo is a sport. In kendo you do martially unsound things for martially unsound reasons. Like aiming cuts at bits of the body covered by armour purely in order to score points.

Also because only a good clean strike to a target area counts in matches, kendoka tend to ignore things like a shinai grazing across their arteries. In the match it doesn't score points but from a practical sword fighting point of view they'd be dead.

There's nothing practically martial about it.

DH
07-01-2008, 10:37 AM
Pointless debate.
The single greatest corruptive value that Kendo trained people infuse into Koryu like a virus is its footwork. Beyond that one can argue some other bad influenses in lack of cutting with the weapon instead of baching, but there are some positive aspects in Kendo, or at least -potential positives. While we do not do Kendo, we don kendo armor and go at it with Shinai, using Koryu trained methods. Were more people in Koryu to do so (and yes some do) they would learn certain inexorable truths.

As for sport having no value in a martial context, I will personally lay money down on Greco Roman wrestlers of my choosing up against any shihan you care to have step forward.

It's interesting what you can say in a different group, without needing any further amplification.
1. On any other day I could be standing in dojo of a certain nature and say
"Aikido, Iaido and Kendo have ruined the martial arts of Japan."
And it would illicit nothing more than a nod, an agreed understanding even to the point of being looked at and them saying ...and, your point is?
2. And I could be in a dojo or gym of another type and say .
"The traditional arts of Japan have lost all sense of combative value and response to live pressure."

And in both rooms I could say. "Isn't Judo good stuff.' and be understood.

Life rarely fits into the narrow little boxes many martial artists fit themselves into and later convince themselves they're practicing in big world of options.

DonMagee
07-01-2008, 03:06 PM
I'd dispute that, I'd say kendo is a sport. In kendo you do martially unsound things for martially unsound reasons. Like aiming cuts at bits of the body covered by armour purely in order to score points.

Also because only a good clean strike to a target area counts in matches, kendoka tend to ignore things like a shinai grazing across their arteries. In the match it doesn't score points but from a practical sword fighting point of view they'd be dead.

There's nothing practically martial about it.

Until you look at it from a stick fighting point of view. Then it becomes much more relevant. Would you want to have a kendo player coming at you when you both hold bokken?

The best thing about alive training and competition is that it makes you very good at doing a set of skills. The skills of a kendo player are basically avoiding being hit hard with a stick and hitting people hard with a stick. The sword effect is just to help preserve a culture. That is why judoka are good at throwing people in jackets, and boxers are good at punching people in the face.

It is my opinion that sport skills translate faster to other areas then non-sport skills. My reasoning has been well put forth in many threads on this forum. In a nut shell, sparing and/or competition breeds attributes that are hard to teach without (dare I say it) 'aliveness'. For example, reacting to a changing environment is much easier to do when you are training in a changing environment. I spent years learning how to deal with punches in TKD, aikido, etc. It wasn't until I took a few boxing classes that I actually learned how. What was different? In boxing my partner actively was trying to hit me in the face in ways I never even considered. In fact his goal was for him to not allow me to hit him and to hit me as much as possible. The entire time this was happening, I was being coached on what I was doing wrong and was feeling directly the results of my mistakes and successes. You learn quickly that things like walking straight back is a bad idea when every time you do it you get blasted in the skull.

You could say that boxing has no martial attributes because it is only a sport. But the striking, footwork, body movement, and even the strategy to some extent has been found useful in other areas of fighting (such as the sport of MMA). If it translates into a less restrictive environment like MMA, then it is safe to say it will translate into a even less restrictive environment. Sure, like boxers who enter MMA, there are other skills you need to learn. But their core is not wrong, it is very useful and this is because of the attributes they have learned though sparing.

Likewise I know a few judoka who never want to participate in randori (sparing). They are technically good. They can do good throws in a throw line against a partner who lends then their balance. Their techniques look great. But get them on the mat for some sparing and they fall apart. They have no concept of timing, countering, movement, etc. Their attempts to break balance are trivial at best. Their throws turn to slop and they are winded in no time at all. Simply put, they have not learned the skills they need to actually use judo. Anyone who takes the time to get those skills can use judo in any situation where they find themselves in a close clinch. You get used to adapting and feeling the balance, its a simple matter to just throw the person. Your brain just adjusts to the new input instantly and you act. The first time I started doing no-gi judo I was surprised at how good I was at it despite never actually practicing it. My body/brain just instantly found grips it liked and used those to throw instead of the gi.

Tim Fong
07-02-2008, 02:53 AM
I really enjoy this kendo clip
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQlx6CZMOo

That tsuki at the end, to me, looks like an application of bodyskill. But hey what the hell do I know about anything.

If kendo were still practiced with the ruleset in play in that video....sigh.

Best,
Tim

Ketsan
07-02-2008, 06:31 AM
Until you look at it from a stick fighting point of view. Then it becomes much more relevant. Would you want to have a kendo player coming at you when you both hold bokken?

The best thing about alive training and competition is that it makes you very good at doing a set of skills. The skills of a kendo player are basically avoiding being hit hard with a stick and hitting people hard with a stick.

I respectfully disagree.

I'd rather face a Kendoka with a bokken than an Aikidoka with a Bokken. A kendoka has lots of bad habbits that an Aikidoka doesn't have. For one thing a Kendoka will just stand there and get hit. Bobbing your head out of the way is great when you're just moving the scoring zone six inches out of the way of a shinai but it doesn't cut it (excuse the pun:D ) against an iwama ryu. You'd get your skull crushed or your shoulder broken.

Check out the vids on youtube, they get hit all the time but carry on regardless because it's not hit a scoring zone, they're really bad at not getting hit.

Kendoka simply don't have the defensive skills to cope with a bokken. They have very poor mobility compared to Aikidoka and they have no concept of getting off the line of attack.
Against a shinai this doesn't mean much but against an iwama ryu, which is basically a well balanced baseball bat, you're venturing into the realms of life and death.

Simply changing the stick used changes the skills you need and at the end of the day Kendoka do not possess a skill set that is usefull against an effective weapon because they're not focused on using one. They're excellent stick fighters if you ignore all the hits that don't score and the fact that their main stick is designed purely for safety rather than getting the job done. They're brilliant sparrers but less than brilliant fighters.

Getting back to the original discussion if you're going to call something a martial art then, in my opinion, it needs to have self defence value across a broad spectrum of attacks.

In fact I would define a martial art as a system of education that geared towards providing skill sets which are applicable (or at least intended to be) across the full range of possible attacks and the mental training to back up those skill sets.

Kendo doesn't IMO meet those critera, so for me, it's a sport. Same with Boxing, Judo, BJJ and MMA. So yes, I agree sports are teaching usefull skills in an effective way and may even be better than martial arts at teaching a certain level of martial competance, but by virtue of the fact that they are sports focused only on what can be safely done in competition they're not teaching compleat self defence skill sets.

To use kendo as an example here imagine what would happen if they threw out the shinai and started exclusively using bokken. Shiai would go out of the window over night and practicality would become the main concern and they would then in my book be studying a martial art.

Cordially

DonMagee
07-02-2008, 07:01 AM
I respectfully disagree.

I'd rather face a Kendoka with a bokken than an Aikidoka with a Bokken. A kendoka has lots of bad habbits that an Aikidoka doesn't have. For one thing a Kendoka will just stand there and get hit. Bobbing your head out of the way is great when you're just moving the scoring zone six inches out of the way of a shinai but it doesn't cut it (excuse the pun:D ) against an iwama ryu. You'd get your skull crushed or your shoulder broken.

Check out the vids on youtube, they get hit all the time but carry on regardless because it's not hit a scoring zone, they're really bad at not getting hit.

Kendoka simply don't have the defensive skills to cope with a bokken. They have very poor mobility compared to Aikidoka and they have no concept of getting off the line of attack.
Against a shinai this doesn't mean much but against an iwama ryu, which is basically a well balanced baseball bat, you're venturing into the realms of life and death.

Simply changing the stick used changes the skills you need and at the end of the day Kendoka do not possess a skill set that is usefull against an effective weapon because they're not focused on using one. They're excellent stick fighters if you ignore all the hits that don't score and the fact that their main stick is designed purely for safety rather than getting the job done. They're brilliant sparrers but less than brilliant fighters.

Getting back to the original discussion if you're going to call something a martial art then, in my opinion, it needs to have self defence value across a broad spectrum of attacks.

In fact I would define a martial art as a system of education that geared towards providing skill sets which are applicable (or at least intended to be) across the full range of possible attacks and the mental training to back up those skill sets.

Kendo doesn't IMO meet those critera, so for me, it's a sport. Same with Boxing, Judo, BJJ and MMA. So yes, I agree sports are teaching usefull skills in an effective way and may even be better than martial arts at teaching a certain level of martial competance, but by virtue of the fact that they are sports focused only on what can be safely done in competition they're not teaching compleat self defence skill sets.

To use kendo as an example here imagine what would happen if they threw out the shinai and started exclusively using bokken. Shiai would go out of the window over night and practicality would become the main concern and they would then in my book be studying a martial art.

Cordially

In the end, I only know what I have experienced. Personally, I have found that people who don't spar or in a non sport art usually (and in every single case I've personally encountered) are unable to leverage even the most basic of techniques against people who do spar. There are very basic fundamental skills they are missing to actually fight. I'm sure there are ways to teach those skills without sparing, but I'm willing to bet it takes multitude of years to do it. Sparing/resistant drills/competition will give you those skills in a very short time frame.

What we are really getting into here is the deadly vs sport argument. I can simply not believe that this argument still exists in 2008, it makes me very disheartened. I do not mean that as a shot or put down against anyone. I just no longer have the will to write down the information to debate it one more time. To me it has been proven beyond fact that 'aliveness' is the best method to teach someone to actively use martial techniques in a fight. At least as proven as the theory of gravity.

But for fun, I'll toss out a few links
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/ (start with 'Why Aliveness')

For the short version (more of a Q/A primer written by bullshido members) - http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&op=newarticle&id=254

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=matt+thornton&search_type=&aq=f (watch deilvery systems and styles, why aliveness, powerful yoga, timing sensitivity and drills, fundementals & performance, hell watch any of em)

http://vsa.vassar.edu/~aikido/jujitsumodernization.htm (some good reading by tomiki which touches on the subject during his talks on randori. In fact I believe he is even pointing to the need for MMA and simply stating that at the time it was impossible to develop such a system due to safety equipment. I can go deeper into this if you like but it is off topic.)

You can also just search up my old posts. If anyone wants to discuss the points made in those videos/articles, I'm happy to.

Ron Tisdale
07-02-2008, 08:32 AM
Hi Alex, have you actually tried this sparring with bokken against a kendoka?

I'd be really currious to hear the results! :D

Best,
Ron

Ketsan
07-02-2008, 08:43 AM
In the end, I only know what I have experienced. Personally, I have found that people who don't spar or in a non sport art usually (and in every single case I've personally encountered) are unable to leverage even the most basic of techniques against people who do spar. There are very basic fundamental skills they are missing to actually fight. I'm sure there are ways to teach those skills without sparing, but I'm willing to bet it takes multitude of years to do it. Sparing/resistant drills/competition will give you those skills in a very short time frame.

What we are really getting into here is the deadly vs sport argument. I can simply not believe that this argument still exists in 2008, it makes me very disheartened. I do not mean that as a shot or put down against anyone. I just no longer have the will to write down the information to debate it one more time. To me it has been proven beyond fact that 'aliveness' is the best method to teach someone to actively use martial techniques in a fight. At least as proven as the theory of gravity.

But for fun, I'll toss out a few links
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/ (start with 'Why Aliveness')

For the short version (more of a Q/A primer written by bullshido members) - http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&op=newarticle&id=254

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=matt+thornton&search_type=&aq=f (watch deilvery systems and styles, why aliveness, powerful yoga, timing sensitivity and drills, fundementals & performance, hell watch any of em)

http://vsa.vassar.edu/~aikido/jujitsumodernization.htm (some good reading by tomiki which touches on the subject during his talks on randori. In fact I believe he is even pointing to the need for MMA and simply stating that at the time it was impossible to develop such a system due to safety equipment. I can go deeper into this if you like but it is off topic.)

You can also just search up my old posts. If anyone wants to discuss the points made in those videos/articles, I'm happy to.

Actually agree with you. If anyone came to me and said they really wanted to master Aikido and asked what they should do I'd send them off to a Judo dojo for a couple of years and throw in some kickboxing for good measure in the hope they'd basically figure out how to fight. Then they'd have a decent foundation to build their Aikido on.

Ketsan
07-02-2008, 09:52 AM
Hi Alex, have you actually tried this sparring with bokken against a kendoka?

I'd be really currious to hear the results! :D

Best,
Ron

Not with a bokken, I'm not *THAT* mad, I've had enough broken fingers and bumps on the head as it is. :D
Four or five years ago, just after I started Aikido, I pratted around with a friend who does kendo and it was quite interesting. A shinai is quite a bit faster than a bokken but I did manage to do a couple of interesting things with my taisabaki in between getting bashed on the head.

My friend at one point just shouted "NO TURNING, NO SIDE STEPPING, NO SLIPPING PAST, LEAVE YOUR BACK FOOT WHERE IT IS AND NO ******* ATEMI!" at me.

A friend of mine who I train with used to do fencing and occasionally after Aikido I'd go to fencing with him and we'd cause havoc by not staying on pist. People would lunge at us and then find us standing next to them and be not very happy about it.

All in all my experience tends to be that you're reletively safe as long as you're good at moving and keep moving.

DonMagee
07-02-2008, 10:03 AM
If I remember right, dogbrothers.com has some good vids of guys fighting with bokken and other weapons. It's the closest thing I can think of on the internet to stick fighting to the death.

Ron Tisdale
07-02-2008, 10:35 AM
Hi Alex,

I'm afraid that I see a disconnect between what your previous post said, and what you are saying now...There seems to be a logical break. You postulate that facing a kendoka with a bokken would be advantagous to the aikidoka, yet

A) you won't try it
B) when you tried it with the shinai, you weren't quite as sucsessfull as

I'd rather face a Kendoka with a bokken than an Aikidoka with a Bokken. A kendoka has lots of bad habbits that an Aikidoka doesn't have. For one thing a Kendoka will just stand there and get hit. Bobbing your head out of the way is great when you're just moving the scoring zone six inches out of the way of a shinai but it doesn't cut it (excuse the pun ) against an iwama ryu. You'd get your skull crushed or your shoulder broken.

might indicate. And that is against a shinai! A couple of interesting things is nice, but if your head is getting bashed with the shinai, say 2 out of 3 times, I'd say you are likely to find the same thing against the same person with a bokken.

And 2 out of 3 times getting your head bashed in with a bokken is not very good odds. Especially if the kendoka get's the first two...

Best,
Ron (just fantasizing about the odd, I've really no good clue)

Timothy WK
07-02-2008, 10:42 AM
[re: self-defense] I would submit that most of this is just self confidence, awareness and common sense. These skills (except common sense, you can't teach that) are gained in any sport, marital or not. I do not need martial arts to know when I'm a bad area, I need common sense.
I would argue that the issue is more complex than "common sense".

For example, I used to live in a lower-middle class immigrant neighborhood in Chicago. This neighborhood didn't have the best reputation, particularly when compared with Chicago's newer, posh upper-middle class neighborhoods. But if you looked at the actual crime statistics, the crime rate in my neighborhood was actually much lower than in the up-scale neighborhoods. While gang activity and drug trafficking was certainly common in my old neighborhood, the types of crime the average person fears---random violence, sexual assault, and property crime---was much more prevalent in the posh neighborhoods.

Why? That particular neighborhood was occupied primary with families with strong community ties, which chilled a certain amount of random crime, at least in comparison to the more transient up-scale neighborhoods.

Sometimes the reality of a situation is counter-intuitive. The problem with "common sense" is that it is too often based on emotion, instead of objective fact or experience.

DH
07-02-2008, 11:10 AM
Dear Lord
Please save me from
Debates with people entirely inept to support their side of argument with something more than skill with words.
Books written about "combative concepts" by egg heads who have never had to suffer defeat or enjoy victories that have cost them-many times over.
Having to face the unfortunate reality that there are good coaches who have never faced a ring, but never-the-less can teach- as ugly a truth as that is.
Seeing good men who have grown fat on their laurels and are too afraid to accept truths or methods because it may invalidate their own.

Seriously though........:D,
I don't much care about the debate-I have been having it with so called martial "artists" for longer than some people have been alive -always knowing and showing, that a good wrestler can usually take them apart.
While it is always interesting to read a good writers views on combatives, then er...meet them, I'm much more interested in a good fighters views of combatives-even though maybe not written as well.

Experience can be a cruel teacher.
To the unwise, he gives the test first and the lesson after.

Aikibu
07-02-2008, 11:26 AM
Dear Baby Jesus,

Please give Dan Hardin the inspiration to write his own book with lots of pictures and perhaps with a few DVD's too so that he may share the blessings you have given him with the rest of us.

Please Baby Jesus Pretty Pretty Please. :)

William Hazen

DH
07-02-2008, 11:34 AM
Oh there are many...many more qualified to do so.
My knowledge may be "special" to some, but as yet,"unfinished" to many others-including myself. Personally, I can't wait to see where I am going to be with ten to twenty more years of research and practice.
I'd have my eyes firmly fixed...past what I can offer you, and what you can get for yourself.

mathewjgano
07-02-2008, 12:54 PM
While it is always interesting to read a good writers views on combatives, then er...meet them, I'm much more interested in a good fighters views of combatives-even though maybe not written as well.

Experience can be a cruel teacher.
To the unwise, he gives the test first and the lesson after.

I'll offer a counter-balance of sorts:
I grew up with guys who were probably better fighters than me. They actually got in scraps for fun (winning is fun after all), but I'll be hornswagled if they could articulate anything very useful beyond "kick his punk ass."
I'd also like to be a little pedantic and suggest experience has never been a teacher, only a tester. You can look up at the stars and still not see the light. People are generally to preoccupied to bother with much learning...uh oh...my misanthropy is showing.evileyes
...or was that my hypocracy?:D
Oh well, at least I'm stoic so I don't have to care.:p

Ketsan
07-02-2008, 05:08 PM
Hi Alex,

I'm afraid that I see a disconnect between what your previous post said, and what you are saying now...There seems to be a logical break. You postulate that facing a kendoka with a bokken would be advantagous to the aikidoka, yet

A) you won't try it
B) when you tried it with the shinai, you weren't quite as sucsessfull as

might indicate. And that is against a shinai! A couple of interesting things is nice, but if your head is getting bashed with the shinai, say 2 out of 3 times, I'd say you are likely to find the same thing against the same person with a bokken.

And 2 out of 3 times getting your head bashed in with a bokken is not very good odds. Especially if the kendoka get's the first two...

Best,
Ron (just fantasizing about the odd, I've really no good clue)

As Dan said, it's a pointless debate, but it's fun so no problem. :D

In response to A.

An Aikidoka has the advantage, that doesn't make it a wise thing to try. Two guys going at each other full pelt with essentially two product improved baseball bats...............you get the idea. :D It just doesn't seem like the kind of experiment you get to repeat, never mind repeat enough to find out who's right.
I play paintball too, you wont find me going out looking for gun fights to see if playing paintball gives me an advantage in a shoot out.
Not without decent smoke grenades anyway :D

B

Two points.

1. I'm way better now than I was five years ago when I originally tried this. I've had the benefit of five years of weapons work and tachi dori.
2. A Shinai isn't a bokken. I can make ten strikes in six seconds with a niten ichi ryu bokken which is about the weight of a shinai.
With a bokken built for contact like an Iwama ryu I can get about one strike a second.
I make the assumption that a kendoka will also be slowed down by using a heavier weapon.

So a slower Kendoka and a better Aikidoka. I reckon I'd have more of a chance against a Kendoka than an Aikidoka, maybe not much more but more. Against some Aikidoka that I've trained with I'd quickly suffer a serious case of death. :D
I have stuff a Kendoka doesn't have but a good Aikidoka has everything I have but more of it. Actually a lot of Aikidoka have way more than I have.

DH
07-02-2008, 05:38 PM
As Dan said, it's a pointless debate, but it's fun so no problem.

Against some Aikidoka that I've trained with I'd quickly suffer a serious case of death.
I have stuff a Kendoka doesn't have but a good Aikidoka has everything I have but more of it. Actually a lot of Aikidoka have way more than I have.

It has been my experience so far with various Iai, Kendo, Aikido, and kali, people, that they have been unable to even keep their weapons; swords, knives, and sticks- in their hands. Never mind what they intended to do with them.:cool:
Gives "causing no harm" and "protecting the attacker" a whole new spin-at least in the dojo and in your imagination.
Anyway, still a pointless and silly debate, but -in person- it can be lots of fun outside of kata seeing weapons go flying across the room, or hitting the floor.
"I see strengths and weaknesses in all sorts of places"
"I've met more than a few men with shocked looks on their faces."

So I think it's valuable to try a lot of things, before you judge. Or even before you maybe decide on a single training method.

Kent Enfield
07-02-2008, 08:28 PM
My friend at one point just shouted "NO TURNING, NO SIDE STEPPING, NO SLIPPING PAST, LEAVE YOUR BACK FOOT WHERE IT IS AND NO ******* ATEMI!" at me.
I'm calling bullshit on this.

Either you're making this up your friend didn't actually do kendo. Turning, side-stepping, and slipping are all essential parts of kendo, and leaving your back foot where it is is contrary to the most basic mechanics of kendo.

DH
07-02-2008, 09:38 PM
Kent
He may be talking about just suri-ashi only and not seeing the larger picture.

DonMagee
07-02-2008, 10:00 PM
Again, the dog brothers have spared with bokkens, full contact.

They do however wear helmets and hockey gloves. However, I'd assume you can still get knocked out cold (which is always a good test of ability).

DH
07-02-2008, 10:19 PM
Sparring 'full contact" with Bokken is meaningless. Were I them, I'd stay with what they know-sticks and knives.
What the dog brothers do or don't do is not the litmus test for all weapons or methodologies. No this is not me slamming them-I like there stuff in many respects. I think there are great lessons to be learned in full contact, but the lessons are by no means equal, and under various circumstances can even be entirely irrelevent.
Case in point: two men with little or no understanding of the design of a katana and what it was for and what the training goals for its use are to be bashing away-is almost meaningless, and proves nothing. They have no knowledge of what CAN or COULD be proved in the first place.
Their exercise has no value to me whatsoever.

Donning helmut and gloves and bashing each other over the head or hands with a bokken has no correlation to two expert or even moderately trained Koryu men doing the same using cutting and striking and using the skills of their ryu in fighting. First up they won't be bashing and they wont be doing anything full-on. Its stupid to expand that much energy when you need to pick people apart and cut.

If that doesn't get through to people- try this. Give the dog brothers their helmut and gloves and a bokken-give the man I select a katana. You may see a different outcome.

There are great lessons to be learned in different venues, they are most assuredly not all the same. I love live training-I love smart training...more.

eyrie
07-02-2008, 11:04 PM
I agree... a bokken is a wooden representation of a single-edged blade weapon.... NOT a club. Sure you can bash each other with a bokken and wield it like a club... but that ain't its purpose... and it misses the point.

A shinai is a training safety innovation, but it's still a representation of a single-edged blade weapon... and NOT intended to be wielded as a club like most modern sport Kendo people do.

DonMagee
07-02-2008, 11:12 PM
My original point was against the argument that kendo has no martial use because it is a sport. I said if you treat their training as a form of stick fighting, then it gains martial aptitude. This is reflected in that alive sparing. Beyond that my dog brothers comments are directed at the comments of being unable to get an accurate representation of ability with a stick because of the ability to ignore hits. I suggest bokken sparing, I was told it wasn't feasible. I gave a example of it actually being done and proving it is feasible.

It should be obvious by now that I'm going to always have this dialog with most people

Person: I can do X.
Me: really, can you do it against an alive opponent?
Person: (assuming they don't say yes) It is too dangerous.
Me: Really now? (I now give example of it being done or dismiss it as worthless).
Person: You just don't understand.
Me: I'm glad.

Tim Fong
07-03-2008, 03:05 AM
http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/bios_knaus.htm

Midway down the page are the comments regarding Japanese weapons vs FMA.

Kevin Leavitt
07-03-2008, 06:28 AM
Good discussion. I just thank God I don't have to fight any samurai on the street today!

Focusing on where your are and how you got there is an important thing to consider when evaluating "effectiveness" or "self defense".

It will usually shed light on the importance of said weapons, training methods, or testing of your skills in a particular area.

Rennis Buchner
07-03-2008, 07:03 AM
It has been my experience so far with various Iai, Kendo, Aikido, and kali, people, that they have been unable to even keep their weapons; swords, knives, and sticks- in their hands. Never mind what they intended to do with them.

Sadly I'd have to agree. Now as a martial artist, I rank myself pretty strongly on the "crappy" side of things. My body skills suck, my balance is terrible most of the time, I'm far too tense almost always. But despite that fact I've ended up cutting the bokuto out of the hands of a couple of kendo and iai 7-dans (while doing jodo, repeatedly for both parties), as well as several lower ranked yudansha in iai, kendo and aikido. The majority of these weren't of the "oh, I dropped my bokuto" variety either. We are talking fully air born, sliding half way across the dojo floor of large major city run budo-kan type of incidences here. Considering how bad my skills are overall and that all of these events happened years before I ever started considering that my body skills needed to be rebuilt, I can assure you that amazing technique on my part was probably not the reason for these "air born adventures". The frequency in which this was happening was one of my first clues that "something was missing" in most people's training today.

For what little it's worth,
Rennis Buchner

Ketsan
07-03-2008, 07:08 AM
I'm calling bullshit on this.

Either you're making this up your friend didn't actually do kendo. Turning, side-stepping, and slipping are all essential parts of kendo, and leaving your back foot where it is is contrary to the most basic mechanics of kendo.

He was trying to get me to move around in tsugi ashi and I was more interested in irimi tenkan, irimi kaiten and kaiten step.
Of course if you're trying to get in behind someone and you're in ai hamni you have to step with your back foot.

DH
07-03-2008, 07:21 AM
Hi Kevin
I think you are missing my point entirely, bud
Thee argument-which is and has been my argument for years-as it's a good one, is that live training teaches many valuable lessons.I also "go at it with bokken, also train in armor with shinai and have a wll full of various weapons in my dojo.

Is live training all the same? Hardly.
Any yahoo picking up a bokken and a whackin someone with it is NOT live training with any value.
Men trained in the use of Swords can enhance their practice and learn those valuable lessons in their live training.
Anything else is to presume that a couple of guys from backwater U.S can invent/ rediscover and or improve over some real genius who discovered their own "truths" in bladed weapons work many centuries ago and continually refined and worked it.

I suppose I could bring it home to you and say I know two guys in Kentucky who go at it and bash the hell out of each other other while wearing web gear and BDU's..They're doing live training too. You should go learn from them.;)
I think you and Kit have made a very strong point about people who are not LEO or Military do not fully understand that training environment. Good points, I have never argued them.

I don't presume. I think its a mistake for others to presume they have the first clue about training with Koryu weapons and what they are designed to do and how. Those that do might see the same humor in your discussion as I do. Then again, I have seen those that did with their weapons flying across the room. I didn't have to worry about "getting bashed with them."

Beard of Chuck Norris
07-03-2008, 07:46 AM
...

My friend at one point just shouted "NO TURNING, NO SIDE STEPPING, NO SLIPPING PAST, LEAVE YOUR BACK FOOT WHERE IT IS AND NO ******* ATEMI!" at me.

....

I disagree entirely with your kendoka + bokken comment. However, I think the point of "the artist" rather than "the art" is being overlooked!

As for the above bit:
If you are playing kendo then play kendo, if you want to have a sword/stick fight: do something else.
Turns are fine, side stepping is fine, slipping past someone is fine... and you can move your back foot... you can even use atemi (if you're sly ;)). Generally, for people brand new to kendo, it is simplified (as it still is for me by the way) in that primarily you should want to go forward. It's very hard to get a beginner to go forward actually, they tend to want to emulate something they saw Toshiro Mifune (in my case ;)) doing!

Kendo is really good fun, very hard and even more fascinating. Certainly made me more confident in how I use my body, which feeds directly into my aikido (which is rubbish! :D)

Mary Eastland
07-03-2008, 07:58 AM
It has been my experience so far with various Iai, Kendo, Aikido, and kali, people, that they have been unable to even keep their weapons; swords, knives, and sticks- in their hands. Never mind what they intended to do with them.:cool:
Gives "causing no harm" and "protecting the attacker" a whole new spin-at least in the dojo and in your imagination.
Anyway, still a pointless and silly debate, but -in person- it can be lots of fun outside of kata seeing weapons go flying across the room, or hitting the floor.
"I see strengths and weaknesses in all sorts of places"
"I've met more than a few men with shocked looks on their faces."

So I think it's valuable to try a lot of things, before you judge. Or even before you maybe decide on a single training method.

Dan, this seems like another way of saying "my way is better than yours."

Is that fair to go to a place where there is an agreement to train one way and then make your way better because you don't go by the agreed upon parameters?
I can make people have shocked looks on their faces but why?

Mary

Dennis Hooker
07-03-2008, 08:14 AM
I think what Dan is saying is (if I am wrong sorry Dan) if people are going to do something then do it right. I think it was Musashi that said ““Do nothing which is of no use” If folks want to play samurai OK just know what you are doing and why, but if they want to study an art then damn it do it.

rob_liberti
07-03-2008, 08:37 AM
I've had a bokken and a knife knocked out of my hands training with Dan. He gets his unbelievable center all the way to the tip of whatever he is holding and it moves lightening fast. It is shocking. And as I see it, unless you (in general) can do that too his way is better than yours.

If Mike Jordan wrote on a basketball forum (you know where they play basketball too) about seeing people shocked by his air time, they'd all just nod and say - yeah I can related to that.

Rob

DonMagee
07-03-2008, 09:20 AM
I find this bokken is only good for sword practice talk kind of silly. Regardless of it's purpose, it is a giant very hard well shaped easy to wield stick. I'm sure there are far better ways to beat someone senseless with it then pretending its a sword. Like learning how to stick fight with it.

Sword work is interesting, but ultimately not as practical from a self defense point of view as being able to fight with a stick (unless you live in a place that will let you carry a sword). I am not saying kendo is in the business of teaching stick fighting either. I'm saying their training method leads to a good level of skill in stick fighting. Other stick fighting schools out there that spar with 'real' sticks and contact (like the dog brothers) push this even further.

I think however we have gotten wildly off topic.

Mary Eastland
07-03-2008, 09:47 AM
I like my bokken as a weapon because of the shape and size of it ...I can use it for training and keep it around the house if I ever need it...
Mary

DH
07-03-2008, 09:59 AM
I didn't say a bokken is only good for sword practice. But it exists in this world as a safe(er) substitute to practice swordwork. If I wanted to use a stick-Id use a stick. Why not usiw a wooden gun replica to practice throwing it at someone instead of practicing firing it? That would be as valid to me as Bobby next door practicing "live training" bashing people with bokken and convincing himself he is validating anything at all.
By the way last week I "invented" this round circular object. I think it can be used to move heavy objects like wagons and things. I was going to patent it but it appears its been around for ages. Someone beat me to it.

Swords are not used like sticks. It's stupid to use them like that. Swordsmen use swords to cut and stab with control and finesses.
Sticks, can be used with equal finesses-or you can just bash with them and be happy.
As a staunch advocate for live training- folks start to lose me when they presume to understand all weapons and training goals and think they are equal, or just how they should be trained in that live environment. Its why for example, I am very cautious with any discussion of the needs of Military or LEO, as seen in the Military thread here. I feel that is best left to men who know the environment.

DH
07-03-2008, 10:14 AM
Hi Dennis
Yes that pretty well sums it up.
Its a hard fact that not all methods are equal nor all roads lead to the same place.
I take no more umbrage to encountering a superior martial art method, then I do to a superior stain removing laundry detergent.
I'd rather be the guy with the cleaner shirt.
I also don't habituate garages where the mechanic has a nifty uniform, and really cool polished chrome tool thingies...and can't fix my car to save his life. ;)

It's another reason I keep arguing for both live training and internal training BOTH, and why they absolutely fit every goal I ever encountered in aikido. Were they practiced together they would change the face of aikido into a powerhouse of true martial potential while retaining the higher goals, and spiritual aspects as well. And it need not look like the UFC to do so.

DH
07-03-2008, 10:47 AM
Hi Mary
No kiddo, I would never be doing something with agreed parameters and then switch it up. There's no need, nor excuse for being so rude. If you haven't gotten it yet from those writing in-we have fun and as much as possible- train safe.:D

Aikibu
07-03-2008, 11:22 AM
Hmmmmm....for perspectives sakes

Plenty of stories regarding Miyamoto Musashi's propensity to beat down Samurai with nothing more than a stick/bokken.

It did not seem to matter to him that they were armed with live blades. :D

Most of the time it appears he was making a statement (according to Keniji Tokitsu anyway) that it's does not matter what weapon you have at your disposal if your practice sucks from a technical standpoint.

William Hazen

DH
07-03-2008, 12:00 PM
Nor does Musashi say, or probably would say that they're all used the same. I think you might stop and consider he was making the point that he was using the stick as a stick and that his skill was perfectly manifested in the use of the stick as a stick.
He didn't try to stab the guy with it now did he?
Nor do you take a sword and bash people with all sorts of wasted energy. You cut them and stab them.

Once again my overriding point is that you can spend a hell of allot of time trying to figure something out with your buddies at the park, only to discover your reinventing the wheel and maybe missing out on a whole hell of a lot of information.
Bashing a bokken at someone is not sword work. Thus it is better to not use a sword shaped thingy in the fist place. Use a cricket bat. or various native American, or Indonesian wooden clubs. Hell even a big knotted stick. Why a sword shaped thingy, when you don't have a freakin clue how to use a sword in the first place?
Why?
Because you are trying to prove a point-that was essentially moot before you even began.

Mary Eastland
07-03-2008, 12:47 PM
Hi Mary
No kiddo, I would never be doing something with agreed parameters and then switch it up. There's no need, nor excuse for being so rude. If you haven't gotten it yet from those writing in-we have fun and as much as possible- train safe.:D
I guess somewhere I got the idea that what you do is like the UFC...maybe I interpreted live training as real, no holds barred fighting. I see now I was mistaken.
Thanks for the clarification...:)
Mary

DonMagee
07-03-2008, 12:51 PM
I never said stick fighting was sword work. I said kendo does not make sense in the form of sword work for self defense. But it lends itself well to learning stick work. So if you look at kendo as a form of stick work, it well works.

There are also plenty of reasons to use a bokken over a standard stick or jo. The grip, the guard, angle, shape, etc all lend themselves well to hurting someone badly. I am not trained in sword work, I do own a bokken, it's sole purpose is for beating someone who makes it to my bedroom before I can get to my closet and secure my firearm.

I think it is a mistake to think bokken = sword work. I have never ever ever said that if you can beat someone with a bokken you can beat them with a sword. In fact that would go against everything I stand for in the name of aliveness. Until you are fighting with a actual sword, you are speculating.

Again why a sword shaped stick? Because it is easier to wield then a regular stick, it gives more leverage, has a better grip, etc. It really isn't all that hard to see the advantages of a bokken over using half a broomstick.

If you use it in the context of a special stick weapon, make no illusions to using it as a sword (no cuts, just strikes) it can be a very very efficient weapon. To claim otherwise is just silly. I think the kendo I have seen does this to some extent, and that is why I feel it can build good stick fighting habits.

Kevin Leavitt
07-03-2008, 01:25 PM
Dan,

My post was not very clear and kinda jacked up, sorry. Did not mean to imply that disagreed with anything you were saying, actually I do agree with it.

Looking at the endstate of what it is that you are doing is important. If you are training with a bokken, then treat it like a sword. (which is something I don't know much about, hence my comment "I am glad I am not facing samurai")

I also agree with your comments here as well:

I keep arguing for both live training and internal training BOTH, and why they absolutely fit every goal I ever encountered in aikido. Were they practiced together they would change the face of aikido into a powerhouse of true martial potential while retaining the higher goals, and spiritual aspects as well. And it need not look like the UFC to do so.

When you define "Live" training though...I think you have to focus on the defintiion of what "live" is. I think there are various focuses on "Live". There is a "live" sport model, and a "live" tactics application model...as well as probably others.

I believe in an approach similar to this model the Marine Corps uses is a good approach to a holistic program. You have to approach training this way as we cannot simply invent any one particular event or process that captures it that would not be completely dangerous to train in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Synergy.png

Unfortunately, most people or schools don't take the time to look at training strategy as a integrated and multilayered approach.

Aikibu
07-03-2008, 01:42 PM
Nor does Musashi say, or probably would say that they're all used the same. I think you might stop and consider he was making the point that he was using the stick as a stick and that his skill was perfectly manifested in the use of the stick as a stick.
He didn't try to stab the guy with it now did he?
Nor do you take a sword and bash people with all sorts of wasted energy. You cut them and stab them.

Once again my overriding point is that you can spend a hell of allot of time trying to figure something out with your buddies at the park, only to discover your reinventing the wheel and maybe missing out on a whole hell of a lot of information.
Bashing a bokken at someone is not sword work. Thus it is better to not use a sword shaped thingy in the fist place. Use a cricket bat. or various native American, or Indonesian wooden clubs. Hell even a big knotted stick. Why a sword shaped thingy, when you don't have a freakin clue how to use a sword in the first place?
Why?
Because you are trying to prove a point-that was essentially moot before you even began.

Not trying to prove any points Dan really. Just trying to actually enhance your view a little bit,

By the way ALL our Aikido is practiced with either Bokken Jo or Ken ( our Iaido) there is no differance in the foot work or hand postion with Tai-Jitsu or Bokken or Ken. We feature allot of Ken te Ken randori though not to the Degree or Focus I've experianced with someone like Nathan Scott. In Fact as far as Ken te Ken Randori goes Nathan's folks are pretty darn good at it.

There is a world of differance to someones Aikido if they practice with weapons as an intergral part of thier training. I would bet that almost the same can be said your practice too though you do it at a far higher level. :)

William Hazen

Fred Little
07-03-2008, 01:59 PM
Bashing a bokken at someone is not sword work. Thus it is better to not use a sword shaped thingy in the fist place. Use a cricket bat. or various native American, or Indonesian wooden clubs. Hell even a big knotted stick. Why a sword shaped thingy, when you don't have a freakin clue how to use a sword in the first place?
Why?

Dan,

Maybe this is a question that you should ask the US Park Service mounted officers in Washington DC, since most of them seem to have replaced their traditional style billy clubs with bokken, although my guess is that their reasoning is pretty simple: they like the comparative advantage in reach and balance offered by a bokken, and a bokken just looks much, much cooler than a billy club, whether it's in the saddle harness or in use.

Best,

FL

DH
07-03-2008, 04:13 PM
I guess somewhere I got the idea that what you do is like the UFC...maybe I interpreted live training as real, no holds barred fighting. I see now I was mistaken.
Thanks for the clarification...:)
Mary
Mary
We do both. We are a koryu dojo that trains with classical weapons, then....we switch. You are not the only one who has mistaken what it appears to be two very different messages. On any given day you will see Keikogi and Hakama, then two hours later- sweats and t-shirts.
Wierd, I know.

DH
07-03-2008, 04:21 PM
Dan,

Maybe this is a question that you should ask the US Park Service mounted officers in Washington DC, since most of them seem to have replaced their traditional style billy clubs with bokken, although my guess is that their reasoning is pretty simple: they like the comparative advantage in reach and balance offered by a bokken, and a bokken just looks much, much cooler than a billy club, whether it's in the saddle harness or in use.

Best,

FL
Hi Fred
And are you proposing their cutting and using the Bokken like swords and have trained in sword? I thought not. Neither are the dog brothers Fred.
So contrary to what anyone may choose to state -since they have no experience or training in sword....regardless of the shape in their hand-they are none-the-less... bashing with a stick.

I suppose it's no different than waht you do- just bashing around with your naginata. I mean, after all its just a big peice of wood.
Let the dog brothers show you how to do it better.:D

on a serous note-Interesting tid bit, thanks

DH
07-03-2008, 04:38 PM
Not trying to prove any points Dan really. Just trying to actually enhance your view a little bit,

By the way ALL our Aikido is practiced with either Bokken Jo or Ken ( our Iaido) there is no differance in the foot work or hand postion with Tai-Jitsu or Bokken or Ken. We feature allot of Ken te Ken randori though not to the Degree or Focus I've experianced with someone like Nathan Scott. In Fact as far as Ken te Ken Randori goes Nathan's folks are pretty darn good at it.

There is a world of differance to someones Aikido if they practice with weapons as an intergral part of thier training. I would bet that almost the same can be said your practice too though you do it at a far higher level. :)

William Hazen
Hi Bud
Well as stated we do allot of work with weapons. We not only do live bokken work- once someone reaches certain level, we do it without armor freestyle-with blind side mutliple attackers with a guy having to respond-yes people can get hurt.
Add to that we also train outdoors in moonlight over rough terrain, roots and stumps, but have also trained in rough terrain in a raging blizzard almost thigh deep in snow.
If you add to that the shinai and armor work with guys getting very severely bruised and almost knocked out...
Add to that twin stick work at high speed with broken hands and knuckles,
Add to that knife work with knuckles arms kidney and chest bruises and facial cuts then yeah...
I think I can understand and appreciate your "enhanced" view of weapons or maybe not.:D it doesn't chang my point about the difference between bashing with sowrd shaped thingies and real swordwork.

DH
07-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Again, I am only trying to STRESS the point that two yahoos (no offense to the dog brothers I like much of their stuff) with no sword training picking up sword shaped thingies to do some live training by bashing each other has not one single thing to do with sword work.
If you "live train" a weapon fomat you should stay true to the attributes of the weapon. Otherwise you might as well take your wooden gun replica and throw it at people or bash them with it and call it "live gun combatives."

I don't know how to say it any clearer than that.

Fred Little
07-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Hi Fred
And are you proposing their cutting and using the Bokken like swords and have trained in sword? I thought not. Neither are the dog brothers Fred.
So contrary to what anyone may choose to state -since they have no experience or training in sword....regardless of the shape in their hand-they are none-the-less... bashing with a stick.

I suppose it's no different than waht you do- just bashing around with your naginata. I mean, after all its just a big peice of wood.
Let the dog brothers show you how to do it better.:D

on a serous note-Interesting tid bit, thanks

Hey Dan,

It's not quite the same. My naginata is made out of reasonably hard wood, as opposed to that crap they use for the bargain bokken at Asian World of Martial Arts, which is what they appeared to be packing.:D

Do the Dog Brothers allow kusarigama in matches? Or is that strictly Renaissance Faire?

Experience tells me this: getting bashed hurts immediately. Getting cut may not hurt at first, but by the time you know you're cut...

Well, you know.

Best,

FL

DH
07-03-2008, 04:55 PM
Still using the Ipe naginata? Inch for inch-that's some heavy stuff

DonMagee
07-03-2008, 05:09 PM
Again, I am only trying to STRESS the point that two yahoos (no offense to the dog brothers I like much of their stuff) with no sword training picking up sword shaped thingies to do some live training by bashing each other has not one single thing to do with sword work.
If you "live train" a weapon fomat you should stay true to the attributes of the weapon. Otherwise you might as well take your wooden gun replica and throw it at people or bash them with it and call it "live gun combatives."

I don't know how to say it any clearer than that.

I can't argue with you about that. However I have never claimed wood sword fighting is sword fighting. In fact I believe I said "if you don't look at it as sword fighting and instead look at it as stick fighting it's usefulness increases as a martial art." or something like that.

Just to be clear, I am saying that kendo teaches you skills that can be very useful for stick fighting. I was then told this was not the case that aikido teaches better stick fighting skills. Comments were then made that sparing was unable to test this. I pointed out the dog brothers do full contact stick fighting. I was then told this is not sword fighting.

To me this is like saying airsoft can teach good paintball skills if its looked at as a form of object propellant tag. Then being told it's not a system of training special forces. It is just confusing because I never said it was.

Fred Little
07-03-2008, 05:46 PM
Still using the Ipe naginata? Inch for inch-that's some heavy stuff

I'll tell Mongo you remembered him.

These days, I uusally reserve the Ipe naginata for solo work. I picked up one made of Ash for partner practice, but I'm still looking for something perfect in shirokashi.

You probably haven't seen Mongo Jr. -- matching bo in Ipe. Mongo Jr. is just enough lighter to be quite manageable, even at speed, so I take him out to play with others every week.

Best,

FL

Aikibu
07-03-2008, 06:30 PM
Hi Bud
Well as stated we do allot of work with weapons. We not only do live bokken work- once someone reaches certain level, we do it without armor freestyle-with blind side mutliple attackers with a guy having to respond-yes people can get hurt.
Add to that we also train outdoors in moonlight over rough terrain, roots and stumps, but have also trained in rough terrain in a raging blizzard almost thigh deep in snow.
If you add to that the shinai and armor work with guys getting very severely bruised and almost knocked out...
Add to that twin stick work at high speed with broken hands and knuckles,
Add to that knife work with knuckles arms kidney and chest bruises and facial cuts then yeah...
I think I can understand and appreciate your "enhanced" view of weapons or maybe not.:D it doesn't chang my point about the difference between bashing with sowrd shaped thingies and real swordwork.

Geez it's almost like you're turning this into a "johnson" contest. :D

Don't know much about bashing and the Japanese sword is not a good hacking implement it's made for cutting so I agree with you there.

As for the Harsh outdoor training Dude you're talking to an Ex- Ranger....One with steel and pins in his body and every knuckle in his hands broken at least once.

You have NO IDEA. LOL But hey since we seem to be comparing 'johnsons" :D

Seriously though you sound like a man after my own heart. :).

I have no doubt that your training regimen is top knotch and hopefully what you've started will spread for the benefit of Aikido.

Namaste'

William Hazen

Kent Enfield
07-03-2008, 06:35 PM
He was trying to get me to move around in tsugi ashi.
Stop digging; the hole's deep enough.

Tsugi ashi is also considered poor form in kendo, generally.

DH
07-03-2008, 07:10 PM
Geez it's almost like you're turning this into a "johnson" contest. :D

Don't know much about bashing and the Japanese sword is not a good hacking implement it's made for cutting so I agree with you there.

As for the Harsh outdoor training Dude you're talking to an Ex- Ranger....One with steel and pins in his body and every knuckle in his hands broken at least once.

You have NO IDEA. LOL But hey since we seem to be comparing 'johnsons" :D

Seriously though you sound like a man after my own heart. :).

I have no doubt that your training regimen is top knotch and hopefully what you've started will spread for the benefit of Aikido.

Namaste'

William Hazen
Oh heck No Bud
You were offering -quite appropriately i might add- a more in depth view of some of your training. I couldn't resist giving you a window into mine. No worries. I followed many of your responses to Kit and Kevin. I know who I am speaking to-and its why I called you bud.;)

Aikibu
07-03-2008, 11:08 PM
Oh heck No Bud
You were offering -quite appropriately i might add- a more in depth view of some of your training. I couldn't resist giving you a window into mine. No worries. I followed many of your responses to Kit and Kevin. I know who I am speaking to-and its why I called you bud.;)

Cool Bud er on the left coast we say Bro. :)

Take Care

William Hazen

Zornocology
07-22-2008, 01:08 PM
I may be stepping out of my league here but I have seen the kendo vs. aikido ken-waza (if that term can be used) from two different angles and have to say that I (as a kendoka) would gladely take on any aikidoka (at least any i have met in my own aikikiai) in a "sword" fight. First, coming from Kendo to Aikido, I find that the techniques practiced seem somewhat elaborate and roundabout rather than straight to the point and efficient like those in Kendo. Second, most Aikidoka don't get any actual combat experiece and when they do can't go full speed full power as you would kill eachother. Thirdly, there is a long time practicioner of Aikido in our Kendo dojo and ... I don't know how to say this politely... he has trouble...
That being said, perhaps when I learn more of the ken-waza from Aikido I can convince a member of my Kendo dojo to really put the two against eachother and see how it goes. :)

HL1978
08-04-2008, 08:49 PM
I may be stepping out of my league here but I have seen the kendo vs. aikido ken-waza (if that term can be used) from two different angles and have to say that I (as a kendoka) would gladely take on any aikidoka (at least any i have met in my own aikikiai) in a "sword" fight. First, coming from Kendo to Aikido, I find that the techniques practiced seem somewhat elaborate and roundabout rather than straight to the point and efficient like those in Kendo. Second, most Aikidoka don't get any actual combat experiece and when they do can't go full speed full power as you would kill eachother. Thirdly, there is a long time practicioner of Aikido in our Kendo dojo and ... I don't know how to say this politely... he has trouble...
That being said, perhaps when I learn more of the ken-waza from Aikido I can convince a member of my Kendo dojo to really put the two against eachother and see how it goes. :)

Depends on the rules of course. You could get aikidoka, or koryu practioners doing all sorts of techniques that in a kendo ruleset will never happen.

What happens if they preform kesagiri and strike do or kote with it?
What if they strike the shoulder area?
What if they attack the legs?
What if they throw or strike you?
What if the strike with the tsuka gashira?
What if they tsuki the do (formerly legal in kendo)?

If you want to see what I am talking about, watch an experienced kendoka try isshujiai with a naginataka for the first time. Suddenly some of the alternate kamae make a bit more sense since there is a need to protect the legs, and one might not expect tsuki to the dou (some places still practice it).

I will agree that if one is studying Japanese swordsmanship that there is a need to pressure test, but when one starts playing with more open rules, or in an environment where other techniques are allowed which one is unfamiliar with one shouldn't make assumptions.

Zornocology
08-06-2008, 12:55 PM
i don't believe i've been assumptive at all. I'm speaking from my own meager experience and saying that the techniques i have seen performed, practiced and taught in my aikido dojo don't appear to be ableto stand up to proper kendo techniques (IMO) and after I learn the aikido techniques a little more fully, I am willing to test this theory.