Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

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[DH]

Iij = f (Ri, Aj)
-----------
f (Dij)

Interaction (I) between i and j is a function of repulsive forces (R) at i and attractive forces (A) at j, and an inverse function of the friction/distance (D) between i and j

Iij The interaction volume from i to j
Ri a parameter representing (repulsive) factors which are associated with "leaving" i (such as outmigration)
Aj a parameter representing (attractive) factors related to going to j (such as inmigration)
Dij the distance between i and j
:D

Smart alec
Ok Erik er...Dennis. All that does is recognize there is a force going out and potentially one coming in. It doesn't recognize how the force is being generated in, and from, i. Nor how it is either being met, changed, or redirected...within...the body of j.
Which is the heart of the matter since the results- changes everything.:cool:

[Dennis Hooker]

Smart alec
Ok Erik er...Dennis. All that does is recognize there is a force going out and potentially one coming in. It doesn't recognize how the force is being generated in, and from, i. Nor how it is either being met, changed, or redirected...within...the body of j.
Which is the heart of the matter since the results- changes everything.:cool:

:cool: Dan my boy, There is a model for that and it is called the Friction Factor but all this logic gets in the way of the human factor and we just can't model it very well. We can predict it somewhat but we just can't model model it with a hoot. .

[jennifer paige smith]

:cool: Dan my boy, There is a model for that and it is called the Friction Factor but all this logic gets in the way of the human factor and we just can't model it very well. We can predict it somewhat but we just can't model model it with a hoot. .

Hoo-Hoo. Hoo-Hoo.:)
http://www.usbr.gov(supposed to be picture of owl....here......)

[DH]

Hi Dennis
I long ago gave up. I've worked on it with two engineers I see often, who are stumped. One of whom told me what I was doing should be impossible. Both of whom go off on tangents way over my head. So I can track with you there. They can neither do, or explain what I do. I can do what I do and teach what I do, but I can't model it or explain it mathematically, nor do I care to. Even with one of them being shown to actually do some things to absorb forces, he was still at a loss, but was having fun doing it. He understood the door graphic with the pivot, and could explain it. He just couldn't figure out the spine and how it was supported. And the door model with the central ball bearing left him stumped.

What is more compelling and down right hilarious to me is to have people actually start doing it themselves.
We have three standard comments repeated often. Visitors are sure to say one, two ro all three.
1. What the F#$# is that?
When they feel us and how we move.
2. But I didn't do anything!
When they do things for the first time.
3. How come people don't know this stuff?
Typically said after a long training session.

I have had all three of them written in Kanji to place them on the wall, so we can point, but no one will know until we tell them which one they just said.
I don't think, in over 200 students that math could have or would have helped. Oh were it so easy....."Here see the math, just do that!":rolleyes:

[MM]

Sure, there are *some* paths which approach the same general vicinity... which could be miles apart, but that's not the purpose of this discussion... I think.

Perhaps we could all get back on topic... for those who have felt "it" (from whomever), and sorta understand what "it" is that needs to be worked on, or can now reasonably do "it" to some degree... what is the way forward to now bring "it" (back?) into *their* aikido. Or would some, like Mark M, have to leave Aikido™ to continue working at "it"?

Hello Ignatius,
I've been out of state for a week and just returned today. Been awhile trying to catch up on the reading material.

In regards to your question, I think it would really depend upon the organization and the dojo. I think of Itten and they can do things as a group that other places couldn't. Also, there are multiple people there working on aiki. It's a different place than an organizational dojo.

But, if you're one person in a dojo that is focused on learning techniques, then, no, you're just going to confuse your body and make the learning slower. For some, that's fine and they don't mind.

I'm not like that. I'm sort of stubborn and I gave it a year's long attempt, even though I knew aikido(tm) training and aiki...do training were conflicting and diametrically opposed at times. I still grumble at Dan's words of slow boat and 180 degrees in the wrong direction. I grumble because it is the truth and they are hard words to not only accept but understand. I'm a bit thick headed at times, so the understanding is slow to dawn on me.

Unless your training/dojo/organization already is working on aiki...do training (and there's probably only 1 or 2 in the whole U.S. -- if you're thinking that you already do this stuff, then I suggest going and rereading all the threads about it on E-budo and here because a lot of people said that. And when they finally got hands-on experience they said, crap, that isn't anything like what we're doing), then doing both aikido(tm) and aiki...do is going to be slow and at times it will set you back rather than help you forward.

That doesn't mean it can't be done.

[MM]

If that were all of it, why then do you suppose, some are seeing a difficulty in "doing" aiki...do while doing Aikido™? Some to the point that they felt it necessary to leave for a while?

I find this intriguing on a couple of levels and have some opinions of my own since 18 years ago I was one of you, and felt I had to leave to develop before I could come back. Rather state my experiences and opinions just yet I'd love to hear others opinions about what is happening in their bodies, and how it is affecting both them and their training partners..
Do you suppose, that as your body changes, you will continue to do waza the same?
Have you considered the effect your training may have in your body in later stages in regards to just how you an uke will interact?

In the first six months, I felt little to no change. I wasn't sure anything was working differently. In 6-9 months, there were moments of "huh" (sorry, inside joke). There were times when things worked very differently. Like say, standing with your back to a wall and having a person push directly on your chest with full force and not feeling it. Then having four more people line up behind the first and they're all pushing and you aren't feeling it. But, you can't step forward off the wall yet. In 9 months-1 year, there was a jump in strangeness. Taking a full force nikkyo and not feeling it yet being light footed and able to move rapidly. These are just a few examples.

I'm working on not having any wrist lock work on me. And if I accomplish that, how can I ever go back to viewing those locks the same? There will be no pain compliance nor control of my center through the locks. So, no, I will not continue to do waza the same. That's a given.

Later stages? I try not to dwell too much on that. I'm already grumbling enough. :D

[MM]

Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Going back to the title, something that Goldsbury sensei wrote sort of makes me wonder.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=210371&postcount=48


In one sense, the spread of aikido abroad has been the spread of the omote of aikido. The ura has been kept carefully hidden and perhaps this is something people have to find out for themselves.



Apologies for taking it out of context. But, this thread about Aikido™ and Aiki…do seems very applicable here.

So, for giggles and grins, let's just picture that mainstream U.S. aikido training has been only omote. Hence, we get Aikido™, as Dan describes it. And let's say that the ura brings us to Aiki…do. Again, we're looking at this in a hypothetical manner just to step outside the box, as they say.

If we look at it that way, who wouldn't want to pursue ura and go beyond omote to bring their aikido training to a higher level?

The sad part is that I think most people would still not get out and meet/train with Dan/Mike/Akuzawa. But, if some Aikikai shihan, or Doshu came to the U.S. and proclaimed to be teaching the ura, the U.S. aikido world would stand in line waiting for the seminars. Between the authority of Aikikai and the nature of being Japanese, most would either want to go or actually go.

And I guess that's the nature of things. The thousands that trained didn't get far because they weren't "special". They didn't get far because they either weren't shown the proper methods or they were and never worked at them. How far you get is in your hands with the proper training methods.

I do believe that these methods that Dan/Mike/Akuzawa are teaching are the training methods to build aiki. They aren't a shortcut and they don't invalidate Aikido™ per se. It is a matter of how *you* express the aiki. That is what integrates Aikido™ and aiki...do.

Shioda's expression of aikido didn't look like Tomiki or Tohei. Yet they were doing aikido. Yoshinkan coupled with aiki...do will give you another Shioda. Shodokan coupled with aiki...do will give you another Tomiki. For those that put in the solo work, the paired training, the time and effort. Not because someone has "special" talent that creates a master, a great.

Where are we at? At the junction. Because people like Dan, Mike, Rob, and Akuzawa opened up to help others along the way. And it isn't one or the other. There is no Aikido™ vs Aiki…do. The aiki...do builds the structure in the body which allows the expression of Aikido™ to show through. But, the caution label states that your expression of Aikido™ may not be the same ever again. If you look back, though, you'll find that you stand in good company. Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei, etc all brought their own unique expressions.

The choice is yours. Go or don't go. Your training is in your hands. But I can promise you this. In five years or so when those of us who have gone (and continued to train) finally get around to meeting people, those who didn't go are going to regret it and kick themselves over not going. Not because it's out of their reach -- it won't be. Those who have trained will help them. No, it'll be because they're five years behind. :)

[rob_liberti]

Hi Rob
Would you mind placing your last two posts in the "Aikido where are we at?" thread.
They are directly related to my request for that thread and would be a better resource point for those looking for guys like you, Mark, Chris, hunter, etc.who want to share aiki within their Aikido. After all you do still teach Aikido.

Well, as I recall my many many discussions with Mike:

1) I argued with Mike about personality more than anything else. There was a nicer way to say many of the things and there was no good reason to be a nasty pants.

2) I RARELY argued with Mike about internal skills. The only arguments we had about internal skills were:

(a) the level of how much was needed in aikido. I am now on his side about how much internal skills/aiki is needed for aikido to be truly effective. I have great appreciation for his help in getting me to see that. The linch pin for my reversal was that

1- I met someone who could deliver internal power while attacking and moving around in general. All of my previous experience was pretty much that some people had such power but pretty much only commanded it well when they stayed in one pace. Like they were almost stuck in a flower pot. Just don't attack the guy stuck in that flower pot over there - OKAY. Big deal. When I met Dan, my opinion of how to power attacks changed. That was very helpful and convincing - but still I thought well okay but how many people are trained like that - that I will have to deal with? 4 in the world, I can avoid them!!! I figured, heck I can shoot them if need be.

2- Dan's approach was that he could deliver such abilities to people in a much smaller amount of time than anyone else I had encountered AND HE WAS AND IS STILL DOING THAT.

Those things amounted to being the linch pin of my reversal on the subject. Had I not had those experiences, I would have continued to dismiss most of Mike's and others criticisms of aikido. The Nisho camp were dealing with MMA type attacks and watching Saotome sensei move around trained martial artists attacking him was impressive enough. Seemed like no one was teaching it any better or faster. Now I see a way to leverage that kind of finesse and more productive power development. I was given a lot of help and I feel responsible to give back and help convince anyone who is also serious about making aikido effective. Testing it that way will help me with my personal goal of applying those physical/mental principles to the spiritual understanding of aikido - which Osensei seemed pretty interested in teaching.

(b) how much was available with the aikido teachers. He has formally retracted his statements about how much aiki skills were available in some of the aikido teachers.

c) about TEACHING internal skills. I felt: So what?! You can theoretically teach someone faster - since you don't ACTUALLY do that, I'm not interested in your dismissal of us flawed aikido teachers. Seems reasonable even now.

If I could go back in time, I'd still take him on - on many of those issues - I'd just do it more constructively and be more of a gentleman about it. He kindly accepted my apology for not being a gentleman during our previous online discussions and we brought order to the force. :)

Rob

[DH]

Guy who trained with Ueshiba. He lived next door to the dojo.
Talking about so many of the things we have been bringing up here.
Listen at about 2:30 in to the video. He is talking about Saito sensei and himself among others pushing on O'sensei. I've read this stuff before; where someone cites things done by others, but they-the ones being referred to- never seemed to have discussed it much.
Anyway, its worth hearing.

Then listen about 4:50 in and you discover also why so few know these things anymore.
Its like being gay in the military; don't ask, don't tell.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JpWY58LWaRE

Also of interest is at the beginning pf the video his referring to Kokyu as an exercise, not a waza, but an exercise. And him asking the audiance if they do pushing as an exercise as well, sitting, standing etc.
Thanks Josh

[rob_liberti]

Interesting talk. I don't think many people would get it to any level of depth until they can makes sense of some of the phrases used like "just relax" and "do nothing" - and other ones needed along the way like "just feel", "no attachment", etc.

The levels of aikido are strength, technique, harmony, michi. My opinion of "just relax" and "do nothing" is that you can't get very far (considering those levels) starting with little other information than just relax" and "do nothing".

- Add years of trying waza with someone who has some degree of internal harmony and aiki who continues to help you with what it isn't (and maybe some hints like "keep weight underside", "vertical is main", "put your intention there", etc.) and you make SOME progress. Get to work with such people and steal by means of kinesthetic perception in ukemi and you get further. You can actually get somewhere reasonably impressive (intermediate level - technique and some degree of harmony) after about 20-30 years of that kind of thing.

- Have the chance of kinesthetic perception with such people as your ukes for concentrated amounts of time (like hours most days) and you make a lot more progress. You can probably get somewhere reasonably impressive (intermediate level) after about 10-15 years of that kind of thing.

- Actually train "central equilibrium" directly and "just relax" helps. You can take a short breath in, and let yourself melt a bit and only stay held up by all of the forces being mentally managed by means of intentions and you can start making some very good progress quickly. You can probably get somewhere reasonably impressive (intermediate level) after about 1-5 years of that kind of thing.

In this way, I am learning how to approach a "productive do nothing" because the additive forces of someone trying to attack/manipulate me are just managed along with all of my own forces without me being very aware of it.

To do this I had to work at learning to "feel" my body into proper structure as opposed to trying to "think" my body into proper strucure which would unfortuntely fight my own muscles. To do that I have not only started yoga, tai massage, and active isolated streteching, but also, I have concentrated on learning to "just feel".

To "just feel" I have had to really let go of the idea of "control" and of the ideas of "attachment to outcome". Basically a lot of the zen crap I read (that really added no value to my previous training) started to finally make a bit of sense. I had been in the "finesse to hide my structural weaknesses" stage. It was primarily all "technique". At the time, my thoughts about aikido resulted in a lot of "talking" which was a form of "control" which was "attached to the outcome" of avoiding someone getting to my weaknesses before I could take control of their weaknesses.

Getting into the "just feel" track to "just relax" seems like it can lead to the level of michi - but of course that seems like an attachment to an outcome and that puts me into zen-thinking that isn't helping much at present again... :)

Rob

[Erick Mead]

Interesting talk. I don't think many people would get it to any level of depth until they can makes sense of some of the phrases used ... steal by means of kinesthetic perception in ukemi 20-30 years ... kinesthetic percetion with such people as your ukes ... about 10-15 years ...

- Actually train "central equilibrium" directly ... forces being mentally managed by means of intentions ... about 1-5 years of that kind of thing.

... To do this I had to work at learning to "feel" my body into proper structure ... To "just feel" I have had to really let go of the idea of "control" and of the ideas of "attachment to outcome". May I point out, your progression depended on being able to "not think" and to "feel" accurately. There is no basis in your experience to judge that the progression of your experience and its deepening can be so trivially short-circuited - because you are building on a foundation. Also, it cannot be said that thinking about feeling as it occurred necessarily helped. It may even get in the way. Thinking is best when reflective and projective.

Speaking from experience as a pilot as well as from aikido specifically, there is A LOT of learning to be able to relax into riding the dynamic, rather than making the dynamic happen. The first action of control is always OVER-control. Control advances by iterated reduction of compensating (and usually opposing) errors. Competent control occurs when the error range is too small and fast for conscious control and the cerebellum gradually takes over.

The cerebral brain must think -- it is what it does, so give it proper, precise names and concepts to think about, for analyzing after action occurs, and get it OUT of the business of thinking about feeling AS it occurs. That's crosswired, and counterproductive. Getting accurate concepts for the cerebral brain to assess training and plan refined training is at least as important as proper attention to accurate feeling of the magnitude and direction of various forms of error.

[rob_liberti]

I agree that you think certain things to get to feelings and then you don't need to think so much anymore.

What had been happening was that I achieved some degree of hiding my structural weaknesses while giving myself a bit more time to think when the action got more and more intense. I used tricks about positioning myself relative to the attacker(s), and all sorts of tricks to set up the situation where I would have more structure than the attacker(s) due to my movement and technique relative to their attacks.

Now I can focus much more on what I consider the absolute (Dan's calls central equilibrium). I currently still find myself thinking through a long check list of where to set my intentions while I "not think" about anything else (other than why this image for this push as opposed to some of the the other images). Eventually, that feeling will be maintained and become second nature requiring no thought. As long as someone with some structure keeps pushing on me and testing me I should be able to feel pretty accurately.

This approach removes all of the other games I had been playing to buy time to think - and the games I had been playing to de-structure other people. So the approach short circuits a lot of wasted effort.

I don't think there is 1 person in Dan's barn who has been training as long as I have, and they are all pretty much better than me - even the guy who has about 1.5 total years of experience. And I'm not terrible; they are just making very good progress - which seems to prove - to me anyway - that they can "feel accurately" with way less foundation (or I should say they probably have much more foundation just way less time into foundation).

Regardless, "just relax" takes on a new meaning when you have a more concrete idea of what's taking over the job of muscular tension. Maybe the phrase should read "just relax movement muscles and set up whatever level of structure you need to manage your internal forces in harmony by means of mental intention". And to do that maybe the phrase "just feel" should be changed to "just think enough to get to the situation where you can just feel by getting past the need for control and attainment of most goals" - which is somewhat ironic as it is a goal in and of itself.

Rob

[MM]

Guy who trained with Ueshiba. He lived next door to the dojo.
Talking about so many of the things we have been bringing up here.
Listen at about 2:30 in to the video. He is talking about Saito sensei and himself among others pushing on O'sensei. I've read this stuff before; where someone cites things done by others, but they-the ones being referred to- never seemed to have discussed it much.
Anyway, its worth hearing.

Then listen about 4:50 in and you discover also why so few know these things anymore.
Its like being gay in the military; don't ask, don't tell.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JpWY58LWaRE

Also of interest is at the beginning pf the video his referring to Kokyu as an exercise, not a waza, but an exercise. And him asking the audiance if they do pushing as an exercise as well, sitting, standing etc.
Thanks Josh

It's amazing how many examples there are of Ueshiba using pushing as an exercise or a demonstration. Something the founder of Aikido is doing, yet has little place in today's aikido? Kind of weird. Guess it belongs up there with standing under a cold waterfall. :)

Mark

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

It's amazing how many examples there are of Ueshiba using pushing as an exercise or a demonstration. Something the founder of Aikido is doing, yet has little place in today's aikido? Kind of weird. Guess it belongs up there with standing under a cold waterfall. :)

Mark

Standing under a waterfall...? Other than to get a great picture, who would do that?

.

[rob_liberti]

I would stand under a waterfall if:
a) it were a hot day and the water was nice and cool and refreshing
b) it was a normal day, and the water was nice and warm and soothing to my neck and back muscles
c) if I were trying to work on my mental intention(s) and I wanted to focus all of my mental intention of every part of my body say rising up - and I thought it might help my concentration to have the water pooring down on me while I worked at it.
d) if had some ability to focus some internal heat and I wanted a "challenge" by doing this on a cool day under cold water.

Those are the only reasons I could come up with.

Rob

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

I would stand under a waterfall if:
a) it were a hot day and the water was nice and cool and refreshing
b) it was a normal day, and the water was nice and warm and soothing to my neck and back muscles
c) if I were trying to work on my mental intention(s) and I wanted to focus all of my mental intention of every part of my body say rising up - and I thought it might help my concentration to have the water pooring down on me while I worked at it.
d) if had some ability to focus some internal heat and I wanted a "challenge" by doing this on a cool day under cold water.

Those are the only reasons I could come up with.

Rob

...ahem,

That was a joke, Rob...

.

[rob_liberti]

Well I kind of assumed so, but in all seriousness, I would be all for options a-c. Option d only if I got really good at self-generating heat. Do you do that? If you care to comment but want this to go to PM that would be fine too... :)

Rob

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

Well I kind of assumed so, but in all seriousness, I would be all for options a-c. Option d only if I got really good at self-generating heat. Do you do that? If you care to comment but want this to go to PM that would be fine too... :)

Rob

look for PM

.

[Aikibu]

Whats wrong with standing under "waterfalls"??? I stand under waterfalls quite often... Only in Surfer Speak... we call them Tubes. :D LOL

William Misogi Blue Barrels Hazen

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

Whats wrong with standing under "waterfalls"??? I stand under waterfalls quite often... Only in Surfer Speak... we call them Tubes. :D LOL

William Misogi Blue Barrels Hazen

Yeah, but I bet you don't find yourself doing furitama, or torifune in those tubes. I mean, you'd probably get escorted off the beach and asked not to return. Of course, you might also find yourself worshiped or asked to start a new religion, but trust me, resist all temptations, as personal experience tells me it just aint worth all the government harassment, child support or other miscellaneous private lawsuits. Don't ask...

.

[Aikibu]

Yeah, but I bet you don't find yourself doing furitama, or torifune in those tubes. I mean, you'd probably get escorted off the beach and asked not to return. Of course, you might also find yourself worshiped or asked to start a new religion, but trust me, resist all temptations, as personal experience tells me it just aint worth all the government harassment, child support or other miscellaneous private lawsuits. Don't ask...

.

Bro you've been away from Cali for far too long. :D LOL

William Hazen

[Aikibu]

"The Aiki doth protest too much, methinks". - (Act III, Scene II). Hamlet

Bold Italics mine with apologies to Sir William Shakespeare.

Really Aiki Gods who cares...Why get caught up in semantics? Why worry about it at all....Why Harsh Jun's Mellow?

You guys get to spread the word So my humble suggestion is to do so not by just posting on Aikiweb but by going around and teaching what you know...

Dan with all due respect and I mean with all due respect... We get it... We really really do...So it's time for you to fish or cut bait... One can talk only so much...

You have an opportunity with the Web to show us and IMO that is the next step...Let's see it please and it's time to do a bit a traveling and spread the gospel of Aiki one Ikkyo at a time...

Talk is good but it does not change anything.

Respectfully,

William Hazen

[DH]

William
Could you please post that in the aikido, V aiki...do thread. I don't think it fits here.
if Jun wants to he can put my answer there to.
**************************

All due respect in return. What the heck do you think I have been doing bud? Do you know how many guys have come here? I mean. Heelloo!
I don't travel to do seminars, If I can it is for my won training in a koryu.
Why not go to Mike? or Ark?

I keep tryng to plan another seminar here again as I have been blasted with emails asking for one, but its been difficult to find time.
I don't do this for money, I do it for fun, and its interesting to me. So there isn't any compelling reason to "get out there" for me.
Talking about people experiences is interesting as well and a nce diversion from work.

[Ron Tisdale]

Actually, I **think** the cold water bathing is tied in to some of the holding mental intensions work in the internal training. Have others noticed the incredible amount of heat you can generate working at the standing postures and movements? What about affects on the "suit" that Mike S. speaks of? How might breathing, controlling your body temp under cold water, holding the mental intentions all play together to develop lines of power, control, suit, etc.?

Good questions anyway...

Best,
Ron

[Aikibu]

William
Could you please post that in the aikido, V aiki...do thread. I don't think it fits here.
if Jun wants to he can put my answer there to.
**************************

All due respect in return. What the heck do you think I have been doing bud? Do you know how many guys have come here? I mean. Heelloo!
I don't travel to do seminars, If I can it is for my won training in a koryu.
Why not go to Mike? or Ark?

I keep tryng to plan another seminar here again as I have been blasted with emails asking for one, but its been difficult to find time.
I don't do this for money, I do it for fun, and its interesting to me. So there isn't any compelling reason to "get out there" for me.
Talking about people experiences is interesting as well and a nce diversion from work.

Well forgive me for saying Dan but how about a little vid? Ya know the infamous You Tube or a privately produced DVDR showing how to integrate Aiki into Aikido.

Heck Mark Murry did it a tad and look at the great discussion it generated...

And sorry Dan but again with all due respect you chose to wear the crown... so you have no choice but to act like a King and find a "skillful means" to impart your experience upon your subjects.

The best of the Aikiweb is about sharing the knowledge my friend and with all due respect Bud you have been talking and talking and talking....:)

At least folks like Abe Sensei are on film. :)

Respectfully

William Hazen

[DH]

Well forgive me for saying Dan but how about a little vid? Ya know the infamous You Tube or a privately produced DVDR showing how to integrate Aiki into Aikido.

Heck Mark Murry did it a tad and look at the great discussion it generated...

And sorry Dan but again with all due respect you chose to wear the crown... so you have no choice but to act like a King and find a "skillful means" to impart your experience upon your subjects.

The best of the Aikiweb is about sharing the knowledge my friend and with all due respect Bud you have been talking and talking and talking....:)

At least folks like Abe Sensei are on film. :)

Respectfully

William Hazen
Well I'll pass the crown off to my betters, no thanks.
Come on William, Heck, I don't even call myself a teacher, I'm just checking stuff out like yourself. I've barely just begun. I'll see you in twenty more years. I still don't think I'll let anyone call me sensei though-I'll still be practicing.
a) Talking is fun but won't get it done
b) Video is useless and wont get it done either.
c) Training is the best, and unfortunately for many-still doesn't get it done.Why? It take too much effort for most peoples constitution and resolve.
I'll take c. one on one training, as I think its the best.

[Dunken Francis]

My feeling - to be shamefully brief amongst all this in-epth discussion, is that we should be looking at "Aiki-waza" (techniques, movement,kata and 'physicality') and Aiki-do (O Sensei's vision of a unified universe - however you will interpret that) as separate from a study perspective but ultimately integral to our art as a whole, and one of the key factors that distinguish it from other 'internal' arts.

[Erick Mead]

And sorry Dan but again with all due respect you chose to wear the crown... so you have no choice but to act like a King and ... "I thought we were an autonomous collective ..?"

[Erick Mead]

Actually, I **think** the cold water bathing is tied in to some of the holding mental intensions work in the internal training. Have others noticed the incredible amount of heat you can generate working at the standing postures and movements? What about affects on the "suit" that Mike S. speaks of? How might breathing, controlling your body temp under cold water, holding the mental intentions all play together to develop lines of power, control, suit, etc.Or .. that autonomic shivering ALSO evokes resonance radiating from the core muscles to the extremities... Tekubi furi and furitama, done right will also seriously warm you up. (at least I can see a potential physical training point to it, consistent with my views on aiki -- beyond bragging rights on who got hit on the noggin with the biggest chunk of icefloe coming over the falls...) :freaky:

[Fred Little]

Maybe it should be followed by "Here is a way to remain on your feet and neutralize everything I am about to do to you. Now let's try another." And so on and so on…till you made a martial artist that is potent on either side of the food chain.

Dan--

Your quote above is a good thumbnail summary of at least part of the aiki.....do method under discussion in this thread, taken from another currently active thread.

Truth be told, it breaks the unstated norm in virtually every aikido school in the United States.

A relatively senior student can do it in his or her own dojo or as guest instructor in another. (as Rob Liberti has discussed)

With virtually any other hierarchical or organizational dynamic in play, the result is social friction. That's not speculation, that's observation, at the level of individual students. My guess is that Rob will eventually find that the same thing is true at an inter-dojo or intra-organization level.

In the short-term, the normative attempt to marginalize the non-normative. Social norms typically outweigh functional norms in group contexts absent some arguably objective checking mechanism. There is no such mechanism in contemporary aikido practice.

In the long-term, the norm will either change or be revealed as an evolutionary dead-end, both functionally and socially. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on door # 2.

Now I'll just go clear off my desk so I can go on vacation, reboot my brain, and reset my attitude for the next year.

Best,

Fred

[gdandscompserv]

I believe Fred's summation to be accurate. Fascinating thought. Is the way Dan teaches (independantly and privately) the only way to learn some of these things? Can it be taught and learned under the constraints of your typical organizational structure? Interesting questions.

[rob_liberti]

Well, so far I think it can.

The people I train aikido with tend to have very good attitudes about new methods. Everyone seems to like it if I do Filipino Knife Combat after a little tanto dori. The new people like not being told to take ukemi but rather just get their resistance blown through. The senior folks like copying what I am practicing before and after normal class. I'm not teaching anything about it directly and I'm already seeing the way they hold their bodies changing while they do their aikido waza as nage and uke.

If only 1 other yondan (or higher) is interested in this approach that has their own dojo, then the second to the worst case scenario would be that I could join up with that person and form our own organization. Worst case scanario, I have seveal friends in other martial arts who are into this stuff too. I can join up with them if I want other people to train with. That's fine too. But, I don't think it will come to any of that. Quite the contrary, I think some people will learn it, and some will put a lot of effort into it. We'll see.

Rob

[Aikibu]

Learning and adapting from other Martial Traditions is built in to our practice of Aikido.

No worries here. :)

William Hazen

[ChrisMoses]

Learning and adapting from other Martial Traditions is built in to our practice of Aikido.

No worries here. :)

William Hazen

I love how Nishio Sensei begins his exposition on (seemingly) each technique in his video series, "This is how x-waza is done in 99% of Aikido. We have not done it this way in 30 years, this does not work..." All the time with that polite smile. ;)

/that is all...

[jennifer paige smith]

I love how Nishio Sensei begins his exposition on (seemingly) each technique in his video series, "This is how x-waza is done in 99% of Aikido. We have not done it this way in 30 years, this does not work..." All the time with that polite smile. ;)

/that is all...

A little like Fujitani Sensei who uses slightly less veiled emotion and calls it Junkido.

[stan baker]

It can hardly be learned one on one.

stan

[Erick Mead]

... new people like not being told to take ukemi but rather just get their resistance blown through. It comes down to a pedagogical argument. "Resisting" ukes at the newbie level are doing things premised on a known encounter, and thus if that is not the encounter, they

1) can't resist the actual encounter;

2) if they practice to resist the way they do to a known encounter -- it will get them seriously hurt;

3) NO newbie I have known has the patience to do an hour and half of straight kokyu undo -- because they do not understand that that is where the art in the martial encounter really lives

All waza are opportunities for kokyu undo -- even if they are not understood or even taught that way initially. One can even look at breaking out of the set waza paradigm as part of the necessary shu-ha-ri. "Skip to the end" does not necessarily accomplish the same purpose.

Waza may be packaging, (road map -- pick your metaphor) but it takes a really adventurous, non-normative individual to ignore some really off-putting packaging (even if there is some sweet morsel inside).

I've figured it out -- Dan is a durian -- an aquired taste in fruit, to say the least -- and banned on the trains in Singapore. :D

And for those who have not done a WESTPAC in Singapore, Indonesia or Malaysia -- here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian

[rob_liberti]

Well, this is an important aspect of aikdo and aiki...do - where are we at.

Bringing a new person into aikido is not easy. Lots of people who might have tried aikido these days grew up playing nintendo or whatever. Others are more interested in some form of "more power now" so they take Kempo or MMA or Krav, etc...

A good friend and I were discussing just the other day about numbers at large aikido seminars are on a downward trend. I see the first step towards not letting aikido die out more and more is to figure out how to keep a higher percentage of the people who do show up at the door.

When you get some new person in your aikido class, you can lose instant credibility if you have to teach someone how to react to your attempt to throw them. You can say grab here and don't let go, show them some simple aiki-game, or impress them with wristy-twisty for a while. But it is always more impressive to a new person who resists (all they will typically know - tight muscles = more stability and resistance) and you instantly blow through that - without hurting them or taking advantage of them, they think wow - I want that. The better you can do that from odd positions the more impressive. And I guess that's the point - make the best "first impression."

Rob

[phitruong]

I've figured it out -- Dan is a durian -- an aquired taste in fruit, to say the least -- and banned on the trains in Singapore. :D

And for those who have not done a WESTPAC in Singapore, Indonesia or Malaysia -- here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian

Are you telling me that Dan stink and full of thorny spikes and banned from any enclosed public area?

Do you know that folks who grow duran usually walked around with steel helmet, because the ripe fruits have the tendency to slide off the stem and make surprise drop on you? Do you also know that the seeds, which is Internal to the fruit, when roasted and consumed would create massive ki production where you must stay in open area and away from open flame? :)

Now I wondered if I should consume more duran to help me with my aiki...do. :D

[Ron Tisdale]

I see the first step towards not letting aikido die out more and more is to figure out how to keep a higher percentage of the people who do show up at the door.

Hi Rob, I'm thinking about this statement, and I think I disagree. I don't think aikido's "survival" depends on numbers at any more than a very superficial level (of course you need some amount of numbers to survive).

I *think* the nature of what we do has to change such that we actually teach kokyu undo, kokyu ho, aiki, whatever. To teach it, we must at least be on a path to being able to actually do it. Perhaps not in all situations, but certainly more often in unscripted situations. Less of the You Do This, I Do That, and You Fall Down.

Many people in today's world (and perhaps in any world) have little patience for the scripted nature of aikido...and it is *very* scripted. And yes, on those occasions where I can actually accomplish kokyu in a waza, and I'm training with a beginner (or sometimes almost anyone), I do have to be careful because the power can go from 0 to 100 in a really short time frame. The problem is the rarity of those moments, and the fact that I still depend WAY TOO MUCH on the scripted nature of the training to produce them.

If we could actually DO what we PORTRAY, Aikido would do just fine, don't you think? Even if there are 5 students per dojo, if each one of the 5 could actually DO, I don't think there would be any problem.

Best,
Ron

[Richard Sanchez]

Well, this is an important aspect of aikdo and aiki...do - where are we at.

Bringing a new person into aikido is not easy. Lots of people who might have tried aikido these days grew up playing nintendo or whatever. Others are more interested in some form of "more power now" so they take Kempo or MMA or Krav, etc...

A good friend and I were discussing just the other day about numbers at large aikido seminars are on a downward trend. I see the first step towards not letting aikido die out more and more is to figure out how to keep a higher percentage of the people who do show up at the door.

When you get some new person in your aikido class, you can lose instant credibility if you have to teach someone how to react to your attempt to throw them. You can say grab here and don't let go, show them some simple aiki-game, or impress them with wristy-twisty for a while. But it is always more impressive to a new person who resists (all they will typically know - tight muscles = more stability and resistance) and you instantly blow through that - without hurting them or taking advantage of them, they think wow - I want that. The better you can do that from odd positions the more impressive. And I guess that's the point - make the best "first impression."

Rob
Rob's last para reminded me of my first Aikido class. The instructor knew I had been contact karate fighter and said "Try to hit me". I did and they took him home in a cab. Was I embarrassed! I've remembered that for 35 years and have always tried to make sure that as a teacher I was as prepared as I could be to meet someone like the me I was then. I've been lucky so far.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Rob wrote:

When you get some new person in your aikido class, you can lose instant credibility if you have to teach someone how to react to your attempt to throw them. You can say grab here and don't let go, show them some simple aiki-game, or impress them with wristy-twisty for a while. But it is always more impressive to a new person who resists (all they will typically know - tight muscles = more stability and resistance) and you instantly blow through that - without hurting them or taking advantage of them, they think wow - I want that. The better you can do that from odd positions the more impressive. And I guess that's the point - make the best "first impression."

You could teach them the basics of jiujitsu to provide them a decent framework to build upon. They will also begin to develop the conditioning necessary to develop Aiki skills later on.

This does a couple of things. One, it allows them to pick up "gross" motorskills and learn the basics of martial movement, they learn how to respond externally to the core, and they learn some pretty good skills that are martially sound. On top of that, they are getting in shape and beginning to develop that nintendo body. Oh, you also grab their attention fast and they see and feel the value of the training that is not reliant on them standing a certain way as uke. They learn rapidily what is successful and what is not.

I find it interesting that in most pedagogies we start people out with core curriculum say as an Undergraduate before moving on to a masters and PhD.

However in aikido we seem to feel that it is okay to skip all that stuff and allow people to move on to PhD level development from day one.

I say this after spending 10 plus years in aikido only to go back to BJJ and now Judo to develop a sound base. The last 5 years have been a huge epiphany to me that I think I had it all wrong. I only imagine where I'd be if I'd started out 15 years ago in BJJ or Judo and the last 5 years in aikido!

One thing I like about Aunkai Bujutsu is that Ark seems to tie all this together in a pedagogy that actually makes alot of sense. There is good balance and structure there for those that accept the training and have the patience to sweat it out.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Richard wrote:

Rob's last para reminded me of my first Aikido class. The instructor knew I had been contact karate fighter and said "Try to hit me". I did and they took him home in a cab. Was I embarrassed! I've remembered that for 35 years and have always tried to make sure that as a teacher I was as prepared as I could be to meet someone like the me I was then. I've been lucky so far.

All I can say is watch this trailer:

http://www.thefootfistway.com/site_G.html

[rob_liberti]

You know I think the point here is that we can start aproaching the Ri level or the PHD level a whole lot sooner.

In fact, I believe we can set the bar a lot higher.

Rob

[Aikibu]

I love how Nishio Sensei begins his exposition on (seemingly) each technique in his video series, "This is how x-waza is done in 99% of Aikido. We have not done it this way in 30 years, this does not work..." All the time with that polite smile. ;)

/that is all...

He he he. :)

Funny thing about those vids is.... Thats how he thought about those techniques in the early 90's Some of them have changed a few times since then to better adapt to other arts ;)

So folks who buy the DVD's should realize that some of those techniques are no longer valid though they are still a good basic expression of what he did 15 or 20 years ago.

And don't get me started about his Senior Students who have taken the ball and run with it big time...Just like he dreamed they would.

Nope I am not worried about Aikido the Martial Art at all. :)

William Hazen

[Kevin Leavitt]

Rob,

Absolutely, I think we can set the bar higher, and you can get to that PhD level alot sooner. Provided that we provide a very good martial structure, and people understand what proper and appropriate martial responses are.

I think this is one of the greatest challenges we face when bring people off the street with no martial background at all. They spend years doing stuff cluelessly or incorrectly because they never developed "basic skills".

I know that Dan, Mike, and Ark, and Rob might differ with me on this. That is having people spend time developing "basic internal skills" and framework is important. Actually I agree with this, provided that it either is distinctly clear that it is developmental and NOT martial, (which all these guys have CLEARLY stated), and in the case of Ark (probably Dan too), it is accompanied by good solid martial training.

I think many times we confuse these issues and kinda half ass do developmental framework, structural training, and martial training...and then call it "aikido", and/or "martial art".

[ChrisMoses]

I think this is one of the greatest challenges we face when bring people off the street with no martial background at all. They spend years doing stuff cluelessly or incorrectly because they never developed "basic skills".

I'm actually facing a different problem. I recently began teaching "aikido" one day a week at a local Aikido school. So far, I don't have any complete beginners coming to my class, rather I have a mix of people with backgrounds varying from about a year to close to 10 years of training. Across the board I'm having to re-build how people do things. In some ways it would actually be easier to have complete newbies because you wouldn't need to spend so much time re-wiring how things work. I have similar issues with one of my Battou students who did kendo for quite a while, lots of habits to get rid of before we can really start conditioning his movements to be "Shinto Ryu." My task is complicated by the facts that I only have about an hour a week and I need to tailor my class such that you can squint your eyes, clap your hands, say you believe and still call it Aikido... ;) If it was my dojo to do with as I please, I'd just scrap the whole concept of "aiki" for a while and focus on basic bodywork (Aunkai basics) and basic jujutsu (with a big focus on kuzushi skills and awareness). After that foundation was in place, we could start looking at aiki.

So along those lines, and in direct relation to the topic of this thread, here's a question:

If (as Kisshomaru proposed in "Spirit of Aikido") OSensei's genius was not only his new vision/understanding of "AiKi" but also his new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*, if we intentionally change that paradigm (one of the defining attributes of OSensei's Aikido according to his son) is it safe to say we have indeed stepped away from Aikido™?

Discuss...

[Walker]

If (as Kisshomaru proposed in "Spirit of Aikido") OSensei's genius was not only his new vision/understanding of "AiKi" but also his new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*, if we intentionally change that paradigm (one of the defining attributes of OSensei's Aikido according to his son) is it safe to say we have indeed stepped away from Aikido™?

Discuss...

[Willard, bound, discusses the state of teaching with Kurtz sensei]
"They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound."
"Are my methods 'unsound'?"
"I don't see a 'method' at all, sir."

As you can probably guess, I think your attempt to be systematic with the material will produce results, but "once a week" will be tough -- especially if your students are engaged in other classes.

[rob_liberti]

Tohei went to external sources and then got promoted to 10th dan.

Rob

[Fred Little]

Tohei went to external sources and then got promoted to 10th dan.

Rob

And he brought in a lot of revenue.

FL

[ChrisMoses]

And he brought in a lot of revenue.

FL

And he kept his "new" training methods separate from the Aikido classes he was teaching (in the kenkyukai). If I'm not mistaken, his new training methods were also one of the sources of friction that led to the split... ;)

[rob_liberti]

So the 10th dan business seems to indicate a faith in the potential to do aikido to the 10th degree - and the rest seems to indicate certain decisions that I'm not sure I would make myself...

[Allen Beebe]

If (as Kisshomaru proposed in "Spirit of Aikido") OSensei's genius was not only his new vision/understanding of "AiKi" but also his new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*, if we intentionally change that paradigm (one of the defining attributes of OSensei's Aikido according to his son) is it safe to say we have indeed stepped away from Aikido™?

Discuss...

Hi Chris,

I suspect that Prof. Goldsbury will probably answer this question and others in his upcoming columns.

As for me, I think it is interesting that many, if not all, of the students that trained exclusively (the vast majority of their instruction and hands-on experience coming from O-sensei) or extensively with O-sensei, some how do a "different Aikido" than the "new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*" attributed to O-sensei by his son. How could that be?

It can be argued that Kisshomaru was also an extensive student of his father. But I suspect that Peter is going to show that Kisshomaru modified things, and then justified them in various ways, rather than attempting to "walk in his father's footsteps" as it were.

If this is true, then the cat's already out of the bag as far as stepping away from Aikido . . . maybe. For example there is lots of video on You Tube available now showing O-sensei doing lots of weapons work right up into the 60's . . . but that wasn't emphasized in Tokyo. In fact there are stories of O-sensei blowing his top (again) because folks there were trying to engage in weapons practice without instruction. Of course we know that that chastisement didn't stop folks from adopting, adapting, and/or creating their own weapons work.

Anyway, my question is: If O-sensei is doing weapons work and others are doing no weapons work or other weapons work, are the others following O-sensei's "new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*?"

Then there is the practical approach . . . Chris and I and many others I suspect have been told, "That's not Aikido!" Which raises the question, "What is Aikido?" And the (often unspoken) answer is almost always, "The Aikido I'm doing (of course)!" And I'm guessing this isn't going to change any time soon! ;)

[Fred Little]

And he kept his "new" training methods separate from the Aikido classes he was teaching (in the kenkyukai). If I'm not mistaken, his new training methods were also one of the sources of friction that led to the split... ;)

Christian,

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, he did not initially separate his "new" training methods, however, once the friction had arisen, he agreed to do so in an (ultimately unsuccessful) attempt to smooth things out.

If my understanding of the circumstances is correct, while great public emphasis is placed on differences in philosophical and methodological approach, we are talking about a family business, and it would be remarkable if rather more private familial issues didn't also played a role.

After all, Ueshiba K. and Tohei K. were married to sisters.

This makes the current heads of Aikikai Hombu and Ki no Kenkyukai first cousins, if I'm not mistaken.

Best,

FL

[ChrisMoses]

I suspect that Prof. Goldsbury will probably answer this question and others in his upcoming columns.

I'm hoping the same thing. I look forward to each one. :)

My own opinion is that Aikido™ is not OSensei's Aikido. Further, I think the closest thing to that would probably be Shin'ei Taido. But for all the talk about OSensei's vision, or his Aikido, I don't really think it exists, maybe never did except for him.

Then there is the practical approach . . . Chris and I and many others I suspect have been told, "That's not Aikido!" Which raises the question, "What is Aikido?" And the (often unspoken) answer is almost always, "The Aikido I'm doing (of course)!" And I'm guessing this isn't going to change any time soon! ;)

That's why I find it so freeing to respond with, "You're right, it's not, so do you wanna learn what I'm doing or not?" :D

[Allen Beebe]

I'm hoping the same thing. I look forward to each one. :)

Me too. You rock Peter! :cool:

But for all the talk about OSensei's vision, or his Aikido, I don't really think it exists, maybe never did except for him.

Careful there Pal . . . that's coming dangerously close to sounding Buddhist n sh**. :eek:

That's why I find it so freeing to respond with, "You're right, it's not, so do you wanna learn what I'm doing or not?" :D

What? But I thought it was you who told me that wearing no "support" was "freeing" and Rob told me it wouldn't matter as long as I had "good connection" and "proper structure" . . . :confused: and isn't it all about contradictory forces? "Pulling-up" while "hanging down," etc.?

[Eric Joyce]

Rob wrote:

I find it interesting that in most pedagogies we start people out with core curriculum say as an Undergraduate before moving on to a masters and PhD.

However in aikido we seem to feel that it is okay to skip all that stuff and allow people to move on to PhD level development from day one.

I say this after spending 10 plus years in aikido only to go back to BJJ and now Judo to develop a sound base. The last 5 years have been a huge epiphany to me that I think I had it all wrong. I only imagine where I'd be if I'd started out 15 years ago in BJJ or Judo and the last 5 years in aikido!

Hi Kevin or Rob,

I had the same thoughts several years ago as well. I have done Yoshinkan aikido for almost 5 years. After I moved, I found a jujitsu dojo close by that I joined. During that time, I had a few questions that were answered that I had on my mine from my previous training.

Here is a question I have for you...would it make sense for people to start in jujitsu before aikido to get a strong base? I am not saying this to cause controversy, but I was curious. I can say this, the training I did receive from my Yoshinkan days served me very well when doing jujutsu. I had a pretty decent base already, but some things opened my eyes. Now I am doing both Yoshinkan and jujitsu and loving it.

[ChrisMoses]

What? But I thought it was you who told me that wearing no "support" was "freeing" and Rob told me it wouldn't matter as long as I had "good connection" and "proper structure" . . . :confused: and isn't it all about contradictory forces? "Pulling-up" while "hanging down," etc.?

Now I'm confused, are we still talking about Aikido™ or Utilikilts (http://www.utilikilts.com/)?

[rob_liberti]

In all honestly, the only thing that you can rely on is to find a good teacher that meets your needs in ANYTHING and start with that. If you have all good teachers, then it depends on your mindset. You will become the mind you train. So:

I think starting with a good aikido teacher --> meaning who has aiki skills and can deliver is the best way to start aikido.

I think starting with a good MMA teacher --> meaning who has aiki skills and can deliver is the best way to start MMA.

I think starting and staying with with good teachers in general --> meaning who have aiki skills and can deliver them to both aikido and MMA and knife fighting, etc, and in doing misogi training and learning about the spiritual principles that they are physically and mentally manifesting is the best of all. And my feelings wont be hurt if no one agrees. And my mind probably won't change much either. I'll call that aikido and you'll have to be a total bad-ass to convince me otherwise. :)

Rob

[Allen Beebe]

Now I'm confused, are we still talking about Aikido™ or Utilikilts (http://www.utilikilts.com/)?

Our local Highland Games is tomorrow . . . Caber-nage anyone?

Highland Games question of the day: If Cabers had a minds, would they be subject to no-touch throws?

[Ron Tisdale]

One thing for sure Allen, I ain't touchin' that caber...

I'm not wearing a kilt either. A kanzu, or kikoi, but not a kilt...

:D

[Allen Beebe]

:eek:

;)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Eric Joyce wrote:

Hi Kevin or Rob,

I had the same thoughts several years ago as well. I have done Yoshinkan aikido for almost 5 years. After I moved, I found a jujitsu dojo close by that I joined. During that time, I had a few questions that were answered that I had on my mine from my previous training.

Here is a question I have for you...would it make sense for people to start in jujitsu before aikido to get a strong base? I am not saying this to cause controversy, but I was curious. I can say this, the training I did receive from my Yoshinkan days served me very well when doing jujutsu. I had a pretty decent base already, but some things opened my eyes. Now I am doing both Yoshinkan and jujitsu and loving it.

I don't believe there is any one definitive answer out there. Frankly I only have an opinion based on my limited experiences and I am by no means a master even remotely of jiujitsu or aikido with any depth at all...so please consider that in what I offer in opinion.

Like you my aikido skills did provide me a decent foundation to learn jiujitsu and vice versa. I am now getting involved in Judo as well which is opening up doors to things and methods as well.

My thoughts these days are pretty much in line with Rob Liberti. That is, get a good teacher.

I am not even remotely criticizing my teachers, who btw read aikiweb and post, so I want to point that out. (they know this, fwiw)

Good teachers can be in aikido and in jiujitsu, judo etc. I have been very fortunate to have found good teachers over the years.

Anyway, back to methodology.

Today if I could do it correctly/ideally.... I think Chris Moses is on the right track. I'd spend time doing basic development skills 15 or 20 minutes at the beginning of class, a big suck fest really and then tell people if you don't like suck...go home and do these on your own and it will suck less for you.

I'd also spend time on basic judo and jiujistu skills and get students up to a blue belt level in the first year or so. I'd also encourage competition and KI testing (if I knew how to do that...I don't).

From there I think I'd then "graduate" them to advance training to start working on aiki stuff maybe....however aiki along the lines of what Ark, Mike, and Dan do...not so much the shihogage, nikkyo, kaitenage technique focused aiki...but core stuff. KI testing would become emphasized more and more. Also continue to encourage competition in judo, jiujitsu, and grappling tournaments....maybe even push hands...who knows!

Once a good base was developed, then maybe we could start looking past all that competition and really start focusing on the whole philosophical, teaching, and transmission thing as students would now have a very broad base to have opinions and ideas.

(BTW...I am looking for a teacher or school that does all this...haven't found one) Ark comes the closest, alas he is in Japan!

The problem I have with the sole focus on internal training and exercises is that it is sort of like learning to use a hammer very efficiently for many years by pounding nails into a board over and over with no actual application. After you have this skill perfected, you THEN start trying to build a house, only to find out that you don't know how to use other tools or how to actually build the house! you are very good at a using a hammer though...one of the best in the world.

I think if you are looking at the Martial Aspects of Internal training, you have to do some stuff concurrently.

Yes, there are always trade offs...I will atest to that as a jack of many trades and a master of none! Heck there are only so many hours in the day!

[MM]

If it was my dojo to do with as I please, I'd just scrap the whole concept of "aiki" for a while and focus on basic bodywork (Aunkai basics) and basic jujutsu (with a big focus on kuzushi skills and awareness). After that foundation was in place, we could start looking at aiki.


Yep. Basically what I'm doing.


As for me, I think it is interesting that many, if not all, of the students that trained exclusively (the vast majority of their instruction and hands-on experience coming from O-sensei) or extensively with O-sensei, some how do a "different Aikido" than the "new *teaching methodolgoy/paradigm*" attributed to O-sensei by his son. How could that be?


That's an easy answer. They learned Daito ryu. :) They sure didn't call it "Aikido" until that name was designated later. And they all did different things, just like the Daito ryu students who came from Takeda.


Then there is the practical approach . . . Chris and I and many others I suspect have been told, "That's not Aikido!" Which raises the question, "What is Aikido?" And the (often unspoken) answer is almost always, "The Aikido I'm doing (of course)!" And I'm guessing this isn't going to change any time soon! ;)

Yeah, but anymore if someone says "That's not Aikido", I tend to take it as a compliment.

As someone told me, there's Budo Wallpaper and there's those that stand out from it. I guess I'd rather take a step outward, fall flat on my face time and time again than lean, or be stuck against the wall. I'm just stubborn like that. It's the Scottish blood in me, I think.

Mark

[Lee Salzman]

The problem I have with the sole focus on internal training and exercises is that it is sort of like learning to use a hammer very efficiently for many years by pounding nails into a board over and over with no actual application. After you have this skill perfected, you THEN start trying to build a house, only to find out that you don't know how to use other tools or how to actually build the house! you are very good at a using a hammer though...one of the best in the world.

I think if you are looking at the Martial Aspects of Internal training, you have to do some stuff concurrently.!

How good is your hammer if it can't build a house? Who let it past quality assurance? :)

"Internal" training benefits from progressive resistance to continually push your boundaries. How can you be continually progressive without eventually getting to the point of testing against escalating martial, or at least athletic, situations (Xeno's paradox maybe)?

This was a real problem for me with aikido. I was never lucky in finding sufficient resistance to really challenge the "internal" aspect of my training, except for maybe the occasional brute who comes into the aikido dojo once in a while (but then he is quickly ruined when sensei tells him he must "relax" and not use "strength"). I found the situation more favorable in BJJ and judo clubs, where there is enough honest resistance given to me to challenge me (though usually too much at the moment:eek:). I can take those defects home with me and spend time fixing them, so that when I come back they're at least lessened, if not gone, or better than ever. Ain't that the point of it? The one feeds the other and vice versa.

And without those resistance challenges, you're just following someone else's map to being the "grand ultimate aiki master of everything". People's subtle defects and strengths are individual, so why shouldn't the training be, according to observation and testing?

[MM]

You know, we've been talking about how some of us are dealing with learning internal structure and how that is affecting our aikido. Budd and Itten dojo kind of have a different setup than most. Ron is training in a Yoshinkan dojo. I've temporarily stopped aikido training. Etc, etc, etc.

But, none of us have asked the question of what did Mike or Dan or Akuzawa do when they started learning this stuff. Rob John is kind of an exception because he's learning at a place that teaches body structure. But, what happened to the other three when they started getting some structure?

Rob? (I don't think Akuzawa reads Aikiweb. But, I could be wrong.)
Mike?
Dan?

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

Rob will probably give more details, but the gist of it is, that 99.99% of all of us reading this would a) not have lasted one lesson, and b) would not have had the brains to figure out what was needed. Akuzawa apparently had a chance to feel his teacher once, and then had to figure out what to do to get such a skill.... basically he knew he had to just stand but had no instruction on how and what to do. His teacher just used to ask him, "what do you feel" but not give any hints or answers. So we consider ourselves lucky beyond the point of belief. [Abe sensei, from an older generation, is similarly reticent and similarly almost no-one gets anything from him that is really "something"].

[MM]

Rob will probably give more details, but the gist of it is, that 99.99% of all of us reading this would a) not have lasted one lesson, and b) would not have had the brains to figure out what was needed. Akuzawa apparently had a chance to feel his teacher once, and then had to figure out what to do to get such a skill.... basically he knew he had to just stand but had no instruction on how and what to do. His teacher just used to ask him, "what do you feel" but not give any hints or answers. So we consider ourselves lucky beyond the point of belief. [Abe sensei, from an older generation, is similarly reticent and similarly almost no-one gets anything from him that is really "something"].

Hi Gernot,

No disrespect to Akuzawa's learning abilities. :) But, I was wondering more along the lines of what happened *once* these three actually started getting some structure. Sort of like where some of us are at now. We are currently working a different training path to build a structure and at the same time we're training in an organizational martial art.

I don't have to have Rob's skill to know that if he joined an aikido class, not many could throw him or get him off balanced. So, then, he either has to purposefully let his balance be taken or be seen as a problem. At some point in their training, Akuzawa, Mike, and Dan had to have come across something like that. What did they do?

[HL1978]

Mark,

From my experiences in kendo, if an instructor is demonstrating something, I will let myself be unbalanced etc. If it is regular practice I don't let it happen as much as possible. There have been no complaints.

It probably helps though that most of the people I do kendo with have similiar rankings, don't care much about "budo hierachy," and know that I go to train with the Aunkai. On the other hand various students have asked me to bounce them around.

I plan on starting some BJJ shortly, so we will see what happens there.

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

Hi Gernot,

No disrespect to Akuzawa's learning abilities. :) But, I was wondering more along the lines of what happened *once* these three actually started getting some structure. Sort of like where some of us are at now. We are currently working a different training path to build a structure and at the same time we're training in an organizational martial art.

I don't have to have Rob's skill to know that if he joined an aikido class, not many could throw him or get him off balanced. So, then, he either has to purposefully let his balance be taken or be seen as a problem. At some point in their training, Akuzawa, Mike, and Dan had to have come across something like that. What did they do?

Heh, not sure how much of this should be public, so I'll keep it respectful. Basically, Ark figured out quickly that most seniors at the DR place he was at couldn't throw him. One senior ask him harshly what the heel he was there for, so Ark whispered in his ear, "To learn ... if there's anything to be learnt here" LOL

[Walker]

You know, we've been talking about how some of us are dealing with learning internal structure and how that is affecting our aikido. Budd and Itten dojo kind of have a different setup than most. Ron is training in a Yoshinkan dojo. I've temporarily stopped aikido training. Etc, etc, etc.

But, none of us have asked the question of what did Mike or Dan or Akuzawa do when they started learning this stuff. Rob John is kind of an exception because he's learning at a place that teaches body structure. But, what happened to the other three when they started getting some structure?

Rob? (I don't think Akuzawa reads Aikiweb. But, I could be wrong.)
Mike?
Dan?
I'm none of those three, but I do have a thought. I think that people who introduce "internals" from outside their tradition are going to run into another problem soon -- a technical syllabus that does not mesh with said internal dynamics. What ya gonna do then?

I think Toby Threadgill touches on this matter in his new interview on AJ, but if he doesn't it should be understood that the "nairiki" he discusses in the interview is tailored for the waza found in SYR and vice versa. In fact, the waza comes before the internal training not the other way around so the first introduction to proper body dynamics is from within the kata.

In the aikido I do. There is initial movement training ala Tomiki's and Shida's basic solo exercises and "internal" knowledge built off of that and with additional exercises, but again waza and internal training are mutually compatable and of a piece.

So what do you do if "transmission" ie. the tradition is broken or has been interrupted in your art? If you stick a supercharged engine in a bunch of waza that don't support it I am afraid you would have to dump the waza and go free form (ala Dan), incorporate a new set of waza (ala Itten dojo), or risk a car that still won't go because it has no transmission.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I have found nothing principally that conflicts with the internal training from aunkai with Aikido, Judo, or BJJ. Integrating it is a challenge especially in BJJ and Judo, but that has to do with me, and not what is being taught from Aunkai.

Now that said, if you have instructors that are teaching unsound things, and you "discover" that what they are doing is jacked up...well to me that is a different issue, and if it becomes too much of a contention, then maybe the "aiki" that they are doing is not so "aiki" after all.

[DH]

Bully for you Mark-what an excellent question.
I don't have time to answer today, but I would very much like to maybe later tonight or tomm-specifically how it relates to what happened to me in Aikido, then Daito ryu, then eventually leaving Aikido, only to later start to admire Ueshiba's ideals all over again.

Doug
I read the article. Its all a view, In various areas I agree- in others I disagree, with Toby.
I think you have heard it pretty clearly from Ark, Rob, Mike and myself, and I have heard it from a Chinese master level teacher who taught in Japan for over a decade and taught some of Sagawa's guys and he knew DR waza that if you truly understand internal-the vehicle is of far lessor importance. Waza becomes incidental. To think that certain things only work in your waza. or need to be trained-in your waza only- to get internal power expresses a certain level of realization that speaks for itself. It will not stand any testing of others who gained power but it in a different manner. I think you have to reach a certain level in your own training, then get out to meet real powerhouses in internals to understand both what it means and what it can do in order to see just how it's universal applicability can be true.

Aiki in Aikido is a great example. The Aiki in Daito ryu is the Aiki of aikido. Just expressed in a different manner for a proscribed (and I would bet, thoroughly planned-out) difference in outcome by Ueshiba for his AIkido vision. Something which I continue to admire. No I am not referring to Kissomarus aikido.

I continue to hope that those in Aikido™ who are now training this way, eventually make an indelible and undeniable stamp on the martial arts by reintroducing Aiki into their art and make it a power house.

One last thing
Man the net is interesting
Reading and corresponding with people is fascinating if you save their letters as the years go by. I have letters where men were arguing on E-budo against aiki-That Aiki was waza with "fine motor skills" that would not stand up to a pressured environment. In one, a certain fella was telling me I was kidding myself. That aiki was of marginal use in any serious encounter. Ten to twelve years later they now somehow magically agree and "knew it all along." Although it hasn't escaped my attention that the same people are still touting the only way to get there is through kata-usually their own. ;)

Many martial artists are a "circle the wagon," closed group type of people. For many men in Budo, they cannot even begin to imagine how anyone could learn aiki power outside of their own boxes. They couldn't- how could you?

[Allen Beebe]

Kevin,

I'm guessing that Doug doesn't disagree with you. He is making a slightly different point.

Using the engine metaphor, if one has an engine they can use it to make any number of things (motor vehicle, train, airplane, etc.). Basically an engine is a mechanism that facilitates the release of energy to create a specific type of mechanical force (if I'm not mistaken). Doug's point is that some engines and some engine driven mechanisms are specifically designed for each other. The potential benefit of this mutual pre-design is easy of use and possibly enhanced efficiency. So a particular Ferrari engine can work in a plane or a bumper car but it will probably work easiest and best in the Ferrari car for which it was designed. Of course the release of energy from the combustion of gasoline is relatively universal.

At least this is how I make sense out of what Doug presented.

Now if all I had was a engine using mechanism with no engine I'd be happy to get either an engine or the technology to create an engine. Then I could either convert the engine, or the mechanism, or make my own engine. Either way, maybe this is Doug's point as well, I'm retro engineering. Probably I won't come up with exactly the same thing as the original design, but maybe I'll come up with something even better! Who could tell? Certainly not I since I wouldn't know what the original was in the first place.

So you see, it all comes back to "What is Aikido, or Daito Ryu, or truth? Or, "What is Aiki and is that the force what holds a certain Aikido Action Star's hair piece on during those violet action scenes?

Allen

[DH]

Yet most many of the arts being discussed rely on sticking, stickyness, weight transfer, balance, mobility and taking center, absorbing ans redirecting, as well as atemi and ate waza, and locks, throws and chokes, it is not so different as a Ferrari powering a train though a chevy drive train. It's much simpler than that.

Another case in point -which I guess is experiencial- is just how many teachers have said. I can use that, I can see that in use in what we do...over and over.

Toby's points that are well made is that certain waza were probably created around certain internal applications being prequisit . And then were used as a mechanism to teach it. I think that's a point he made to me elsewhere as well, and its a good one. But it is singular to an art. I has asked him to consider the fact that there are more than likely many of "those singular things" everywhere, and many/ most would be just as relevent in the practiced fluidity of any art. Further that the results from one of those may be trained in solo or other paired forms-maybe with better results.
He can be and is more open in P.M. about some rather interesting things they do in that regard than on the net. He still has an obligation- as to be expected.
Overall, I think its easier to discuss body arts than weapon arts. There is far too much in common with two bodies contesting in a grappling format than with anaologies of engines and different drive trains that are all over the map.

[Allen Beebe]

Yet most many of the arts being discussed rely on sticking, stickyness, . . .

What? You mean to say that the toupee DOES stay on with Aiki? :p

I suspect there is probably a lot more in common within the IMAs than there are differences. This would account for the mutual recognition of attributes, and the general similarity in approach. On the other hand, I suspect that there is something to the "singular" approaches as well. This would explain why "art specific" internal practices have remained in tact over very long periods of time even though there has been ample opportunity for "cross pollination," synthesis, and uniformity.

Now, does specificity trump generality? I kind of doubt it because the generality is probably foundational. (Horse power is horse power) Could specificity trump generality if the generalities were equal? I suppose so. Still, it quickly starts to sound like one of those inane "Who's art can beat up who's art?" sorts of conversations . . . yawn!

Anyway, what do I know?

. . . sticking . . . . stickiness . . . I wonder how many of those old IMA guys use Aiki to keep their dentures in? :D

[Walker]

To think that certain things only work in your waza. or need to be trained-in your waza only- to get internal power expresses a certain level of realization that speaks for itself.

Right... and you seem to be the one bringing it up. See Allen's post.

If you want to reinvent the wheel each and every time, more power to you, but I seem to remember another "high level" CMA teacher who was quoted as saying something like, "What I am showing seems simple after I show it to you, but you could work for two lifetimes and not discover it." I'm sure he was just trying to set the hook.

And Dan, we all have all thought many things over the years and perhaps have been mistaken about various things including sword lineages and whatnot. So many contexts and nuances that get lost in the retelling. So much water under the bridge...

BTW- Grammar, spelling and syntax were getting a bit choppy in your post and I really can't say for certain I followed everything you were saying. You may think it is incidental, but it would be far clearer and more efficient if you cleaned that up a bit.

[Upyu]

I don't have to have Rob's skill to know that if he joined an aikido class, not many could throw him or get him off balanced. So, then, he either has to purposefully let his balance be taken or be seen as a problem. At some point in their training, Akuzawa, Mike, and Dan had to have come across something like that. What did they do?

Part of it is that Ark was never really affiliated with any organization.
Sure he was part of the "IMA research association" club whatever, but the instructor there pretty much gave him free reign to do whatever he wanted since he was part of their fight team and being coached by the JSDF instructor.

Even when he was in Daitoryu, he spent the first year or so letting himself get tossed around in order to figure out what Sagawa was trying to teach. (beyond basic jin paths etc)

Let's put it this way, going into a place and making yourself hard to throw isn't to difficult, but making yourself hard to throw, while being able to throw others with ease takes a lot of getting yourself dumped on your ass. Not because you're "taking" ukemi for the other guy, but simply because for a while, you'll mess up while trying to use the "other strength" to throw people, and end up getting dumped yourself.

Probably why these chinese said "invest in loss"

Short answer to your question:
Easiest way might be to leave the organization :D
Or goto a place where doing what you do is acceptable.

Personally I never cared much for ranks or orgs...and come to think of it, none of the guys that taught me and were good ever gave out any ranks :D

[rob_liberti]

On one side, there is something to the notion about a concentration on formality in lack of substance.

It rings true to me. The most important things I learned from aikido and from aiki...do were not during any kind of formal class. Generally, some sempai/sensei and I just worked something out by ourselves.

However, rank and other notions of formality help when things get bigger and bigger. I'm all about balance in this regard. YMMV

Rob

[Buck]

Boy, I feel that I my eyeballs ran a marathon whoo...am I tired.

The debate is interesting for me to a point. There is a lot of mental exercises with discussion to internal things, finite concepts, etc. all relating to power that I find myself wrestling with during practice and off the mat thinking about over a cup of iced coffee from McDonalds.

This is what I have come to. The internal things put out on the table. Either you have it or you don't. If you have it to what level. And do you really need it at high level- in terms of effectiveness. Either your technique is going to work or it isn't, and within that there has to be some internal principle working. Whether you know it or not, or purposely doing or it just is happening. I don't know if you need to intellectualize it so much, you know proving it on paper, well the net.

Internal principles are not exclusive knowledge. I mean people did them before they identified them with terms and other language. If you can do it, do you have to communicate it. Those who can do it, almost have a million different ways to communicated what they do in all sorts of different terms and langauge.

We also have to consider those who communicate internal principle, how good are they at doing them, and how good are they and communicating them to others. Here is the old looking for a sensei dilemma. Some senseis are good teachers and communicate well what they know and understand principles well, but can't do it as well. Then there are those who are the opposite, who are good technically, but not good teachers. And if your lucky you will find someone who is both.

How does someone with no or little knowledge of internal skills really know if someone directly is teaching them really does understand or has good internal skills? It is really easy to fool those novices seeking intensely internal skills to improve their skills- there is some kind of psychological thing that happens in that, that people will drop critical thinking and judgement accepting whole heartily anything taught to them at the real deal. They do this because they hear a good line and convinced by it, and thus that is what they want to hear. They really want internal skills so badly, they accept what they hears as the facts easily convince who they hear it from is an expert in internal skills because they talk a good talk. There is no one else or background knowledge/experience to make comparison to determine what is real and what isn't.

My point is we as humans and Aikidokas desire knowledge that leads to skill. I think we depend too much on others for that information and we don't depend on ourselves to discover internal principles- which are the result of discovery through practice. That practice is valuable in discovery being both incorrect and correct when we are attentive to it. What we need is attentiveness to our practice and the confidence that we can improve on our own, on what we do- good instruction is needed yes, but it is the dependence on that instruction. That is why Aikido is a challenge, and it takes so long to learn well.

FWIW

[Buck]

I think there is value in discovery, in working to get something. I mean there really are no secrets other then hard work which will eventually get you there. But many of us are in a rush, and want all the knowledge now, handed on a plate. But, we don't realize that those who are giving us knowledge of the internal principles didn't get them over night. It took them time to get them too. Anyone who is good at Aikido and understands the internal stuff, it took them time.

I believe the internal stuff that is suppose to make it all work isn't all that exclusive. Or it isn't all that important because from what I can tell it is more a matter of awareness, mindfulness in your practice to make things work better, and never being satisfied- you always are improving on your skill. This really is the same mind set of all serious athletes. Aikido isn't so much different when it comes to training, hard, dedicated, determined relentless practice to get to the top. We have that model to follow in O'Sensei, he made it to the top.


I enjoy Aikido for many reasons. I am really comfortable at being mediocre. I can't and iam not all that interested in doing all the work and sacrifice (getting the internal stuff), and I am not interested either in by-passing that and seeking out someone who will hand it to me - about me personally. I am too lazy to do either. :)

[rob_liberti]

How does someone with no or little knowledge of internal skills really know if someone directly is teaching them really does understand or has good internal skills? It is really easy to fool those novices seeking intensely internal skills to improve their skills- there is some kind of psychological thing that happens in that, that people will drop critical thinking and judgement accepting whole heartily anything taught to them at the real deal. They do this because they hear a good line and convinced by it, and thus that is what they want to hear. They really want internal skills so badly, they accept what they hears as the facts easily convince who they hear it from is an expert in internal skills because they talk a good talk. There is no one else or background knowledge/experience to make comparison to determine what is real and what isn't.

I think this was answered best in this post:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=209299&highlight=demonstrate#post209299

After you find someone to "hand it to you" you have to put in the blood and sweat. It's not like the Matrix... :)

Rob

[Gary David]

I think this was answered best in this post:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=209299&highlight=demonstrate#post209299

After you find someone to "hand it to you" you have to put in the blood and sweat. It's not like the Matrix... :)

Rob

Rob
You may have hit on it...it is just like the matrix. The construct that most Aikido folks are comfortable with is the view they have now, with the agreements and social structure currently in place. They like things as they are and who is to say this isn't ok? For folks like you and others it is not enough. I have been following this discussion now for years, with generally the same set of people involved. It doesn't appear that any kind of critical mass has been reached to drive a shift in the existing paradigm. Just recently I watched a couple of hours of a seminar by a quest instructor from Japan and his instruction was directed at this existing construct. Only once during the time I watched did he do anything (in my limited understanding of anything) that I would consider a key to understanding how the lower body should be functioning and he didn't talk to it as such.

I agree with you that there is more and that it can be achieved. I agree that it takes solo work to reach a base for achieving the goals that you talk of reaching. Once you re-program your body to accept the Aiki tools you still have to have them transmitted to you. Have fun and good luck with your journey.
Gary

[Buck]

I wouldn't go it to this normally, but I what I was getting at is that it is easy to sound good, to pick up a few tricks and con those unknowing poor souls into thinking they need to learn something special that is being offered. These poor souls not having anything at that time to tell them differently, believe it. Or they want to believe it.

How many people in sports use the term internal power. I mean the word internal power is really out dated, I mean really it is out dated. It is so obscure in our modern world as well. That lends to the "mystery of it" being the magic bullet.

Is there something we are really missing in Aikido, internal power? I don't think what ever is missing in Aikido isn't something that doesn't exists and in explained in modern sports. What we are missing (if we are) something if someone works hard enough won't find. The problem for some is that takes time and effort, and it is much easier than to be handed it.

The other thing I think is that some of use are accustom to be given information and we are not use to getting information another way. I remember a Professor in my 2nd year that say at the start of his class that there are two ways of teaching, one is to spoon feed the students. They other way is to get them to think on their own. He didn't like spoon feeding the students information, he felt that in this method you had to brake the information down into a mush that was palatable as baby food. This inhibits the natural thinking process because someone is already thinking for you. Honestly, that was the most important classes I took. Applied to Aikido it translates a guiding the student into discovery through practice, trail and error, and not braking down the information and spoon feeding,or dumbing it down it to the student. The student becomes solely dependent on the teacher for any and all information. The student isn't independent, the student is unable to learn and develop on their own from their own practice because they are dependent on outside instruction. When it is right there in front of them.

What I mean by that is, I remember this story, not too good, where this guy goes up a mountain and asks the wise man sitting at the top what is the meaning of life. The wiseman ponders and says something like you have the answer, it is inside of you. The guy is confused and frustrated with the answer because he wanted to be told the answer by the wiseman.

I wanted to expand on that I felt it is important. :)

[Upyu]

How many people in sports use the term internal power. I mean the word internal power is really out dated, I mean really it is out dated. It is so obscure in our modern world as well. That lends to the "mystery of it" being the magic bullet.


Er... how is it outdated?
The term has never really been used in western sports, except for the occasional reference to "core strength," "inner muscles," and the like. While those touch on some components that overlap on the "internal strength" that Rob L. is talking about, its still fundamentally a different thing.
I work out with a pro shooto guy over here in Tokyo. The guy could literally maul me on the ground, but I mean, that's been his bread and butter for the past 10 years. But does he have these skills? Nope. First words out of his mouth when I showed him some of the basic skills I have myself was "woah...that's weird, that feels totally different."
The mechanics with which you move the body, and consequently execute techniques through use of internal strength/mechanics are a complete 180 from how you normally use the body.

Anyone that says that the "top athletes" also have it, probably don't have a good idea of what internal mechanics are comprised of.

To put it in a more modern perspective:
Sure there's a couple of top athletes out there, one up and coming baseball pitcher out of Washington state comes to mind, that use key components that overlap with internal mechanics, but no one with the whole picture.
Interestingly, the article in sports illustrated that covered the pitcher was also quick to point out that supposedly no one else is pitching like this right now, and that the coaches generally don't "coach" the guy since they don't understand how he does the mechanics he uses. ;)

[eyrie]

What? They don't know how standing on one leg and projecting ki works? :p

[Buck]

Er... how is it outdated?

I don't want to get into an and I appreciate what you said, am not going to argue. What I mean by "out dated" is that the term of internal power isn't used by or in major professional sports, it is the language ancients that has been translated into our language as internal power. Rather then the scientific terms used in major modern professional sports for the same principle. Sure it isn't outdate in martial arts, I mean it is a buzz word.

It is noted that you said internal mechanics. I am sure sports physiologists etc. have a modern language and research to explain so much of what is obscure langauge like internal power. The point of that is that obscure language used in martial arts related to principles are not easily understood by the average educated person, because it isn't in the modern scientific language. Because of that, internal power can be anything anyone wants it to be, and it is, and it can be anything to anyone. And some like it that way. If you are going to teach me internal power, put it in a more precise language of science, in established sports science. I don't want slight references to the human body mechanics or abstract mystical language. That is great for some. But it doesn't tell me much. I want to hear it from a professional sports physiologist, trainers or other professionals that study how the human body moves and its physics, who deal with professional major Athletes. But too sophisticated, I don't have a Ph.D. :D . The problem with that is, is how many Pros in these fields are Aikidoka?

[DH]

I'm far less concerned about the terms. I am more interested with what someone can do and how well they have developed it. Even guys all on the same path have varying degrees of it and how to build it and use it (two different topics)
I never new or used the term internal power in my life until someone told me 'I had it."
Funny knowing the term didn't change me one bit.

FWIW I called it "Aiki."

Mark
I am still working on an answer to your post. I had a very busy weekend.

[Upyu]

<snip> I don't want slight references to the human body mechanics or abstract mystical language. That is great for some. But it doesn't tell me much. I want to hear it from a professional sports physiologist, trainers or other professionals that study how the human body moves and its physics, who deal with professional major Athletes.

Wait a sec, so do you want to hear it from people that can actually "do" these skills, or people that can "speak" in kinese terminology?

I already addressed part of that problem with Kevin in an earlier post. Specifyung exactly which muscles I activate in order to activate other things doesn't do you any good. You need to find someone that can actually show you this stuff. Until then, everything you've said up until this point is pretty moot ;)

Seriously, the first reaction I get if I explain this stuff in depth is "omg that's so complicated," then I show them how to do basic stuff, how it differs from the "normal" paradigm of movement, and it's like "oh...ok I get it".
I suggest you get your ass up to someone that actually has these skills to show you some basic stuff, then maybe you can come back and have a coherent debate on this subject.

[Tim Fong]

But it doesn't tell me much. I want to hear it from a professional sports physiologist, trainers or other professionals that study how the human body moves and its physics, who deal with professional major Athletes. But too sophisticated, I don't have a Ph.D. :D . The problem with that is, is how many Pros in these fields are Aikidoka?

You assume that sports science folks have adequately documented the phenomena already. That's a big assumption. And if they have, you're assuming that it's material accessible in English. :)

[MM]

Mark
I am still working on an answer to your post. I had a very busy weekend.

Yeah, busy here, too. Will keep an eye out for the reply. :)

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

Wait a sec, so do you want to hear it from people that can actually "do" these skills, or people that can "speak" in kinese terminology?

I already addressed part of that problem with Kevin in an earlier post. Specifyung exactly which muscles I activate in order to activate other things doesn't do you any good. You need to find someone that can actually show you this stuff. Until then, everything you've said up until this point is pretty moot ;)

Seriously, the first reaction I get if I explain this stuff in depth is "omg that's so complicated," then I show them how to do basic stuff, how it differs from the "normal" paradigm of movement, and it's like "oh...ok I get it".
I suggest you get your ass up to someone that actually has these skills to show you some basic stuff, then maybe you can come back and have a coherent debate on this subject.

Plus, the OP seems to assume---not that this is somehow unnatural---that s/he will understand what it means when someone highly expert in physics of the body cares to explain something in a particular way. The fact that one contributor---I use the term magnanimously [1]---on this forum already tries to do that, no matter how mistakenly, shows that it is no easy task either to understand the topic well enough to give a coherent explanation, and even harder to do so convincingly to others not yet on the same page.

There's no shame in being wrong, or ignorant, or less expert than others, the only real issue is can we progress if we find or are given the right tools, and can we change ourselves in a way that we make better and more efficient use of the tools that do exist for these tasks.

So, seconding what Rob said.

[1] that's just a joke, no insult intended

[gdandscompserv]

To put it in a more modern perspective:
Sure there's a couple of top athletes out there, one up and coming baseball pitcher out of Washington state comes to mind, that use key components that overlap with internal mechanics, but no one with the whole picture.
Interestingly, the article in sports illustrated that covered the pitcher was also quick to point out that supposedly no one else is pitching like this right now, and that the coaches generally don't "coach" the guy since they don't understand how he does the mechanics he uses. ;)
Rob,
Would you be so kind as to tell me which issue of sports illustrated that article is in. I'd like to read it.
Ricky

[HL1978]

As I recall there have been a couple of kinesiology type people who have gone out and seen various IMA guys including a few on this forum, and none of them really have any understanding of how this stuff works. If anyone cares to back search they should find references to who and when.

Echoing Gernot, even if they did describe it I have my doubts how it would help one understand how to use the skillset.

Ricky:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/07/01/lincecum0707/

[gdandscompserv]

Ricky:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/07/01/lincecum0707/
Thanks Hunter!
"My body comes, and [my arm] is just kind of along for the ride."
:cool:

[Michael Douglas]

Rob,
Would you be so kind as to tell me which issue of sports illustrated that article is in. I'd like to read it.
Ricky
Googling "sports illustrated baseball pitcher" got me THIS at the TOP of the first page ;
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119283/index.htm

You're welcome, if that's the guy you wanted.:D

[Michael Douglas]

Ooh, different guy to mine, and yesterdays posts didn't appear ... until now, or I wouldn't have posted that link.
I'm glad I did, it's a fascinating story.

[Erick Mead]

Ooh, different guy to mine, and yesterdays posts didn't appear ... until now, or I wouldn't have posted that link.
I'm glad I did, it's a fascinating story.It was a more fascinating DAY. :p

Gotta love George Plimpton.

[Upyu]

Googling "sports illustrated baseball pitcher" got me THIS at the TOP of the first page ;
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119283/index.htm

You're welcome, if that's the guy you wanted.:D

If it sounds too good to be true it probably is ;)

"Sports Illustrated received almost 2000 letters in response to the article, and it became one of their most famous stories ever. On April 8 they declared that Finch had held a press conference in which he said that he had lost the accuracy needed to throw his fastball and would therefore not be pursuing a career with the Mets. On April 15 they admitted that the story was a hoax."

[Lee Salzman]

I don't want to get into an and I appreciate what you said, am not going to argue. What I mean by "out dated" is that the term of internal power isn't used by or in major professional sports, it is the language ancients that has been translated into our language as internal power. Rather then the scientific terms used in major modern professional sports for the same principle. Sure it isn't outdate in martial arts, I mean it is a buzz word.

It is noted that you said internal mechanics. I am sure sports physiologists etc. have a modern language and research to explain so much of what is obscure langauge like internal power. The point of that is that obscure language used in martial arts related to principles are not easily understood by the average educated person, because it isn't in the modern scientific language. Because of that, internal power can be anything anyone wants it to be, and it is, and it can be anything to anyone. And some like it that way. If you are going to teach me internal power, put it in a more precise language of science, in established sports science. I don't want slight references to the human body mechanics or abstract mystical language. That is great for some. But it doesn't tell me much. I want to hear it from a professional sports physiologist, trainers or other professionals that study how the human body moves and its physics, who deal with professional major Athletes. But too sophisticated, I don't have a Ph.D. :D . The problem with that is, is how many Pros in these fields are Aikidoka?

As far as I ever read, the term "internal" was a fairly modern thing (relative to the age of the Chinese arts in question) coined by Sun Lu Tang or at least someone of around his time, so it is probably a stretch to call it ancient. I think it's just terribly non-descriptive, beyond being a loaded term.

Someone handed me a model of what the human body might be capable of which more or less went: "Imagine the majority of all voluntary muscles in your body simultaneously contracting to the fullest of their abilities in a single direction and then instantaneously relaxing." That sure as hell sounded a lot more compelling to me than "ki" or "chi". Sounds like a theoretically crazy amount of power and speed just on the surface, no? And when it is put that way, it becomes more a question of, "what modern sport doesn't have some piece of that?", rather than "why aren't they using our terminology?" It's tangible, and it's out there.

It's just applied all rather specifically in a sport, and question is how to generalize it into much less controlled situations of martial arts, and how to maximize it. It opens up a ton of subject areas about coordination, leverage, and muscle contraction, and the overarching theme of how to identity it, how to quantify it, and how to progress it.

But all that stuff is damned confusing if you have to make stuff up to get you there, rather than using it to predict what won't work at all. Most exercise research seems to be along the lines of, "Well, gee, if we put sedentary ungraduate students or senior citizens on a weight lifting or endurance regimen, they get more fit!", let alone how to maximize the body for use in a particular activity like Aikido. It's totally an art to how to coach all that stuff, and why even after you have an idea what your end-goal is, you are still going to be hunting down people looking for methods of how to get there, and pretty much explains why I still spend a lot of time searching. :) A few simple "duh!" exercises for working all this stuff are worth more than entire volumes of research, and probably harder to produce!

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

As far as I ever read, the term "internal" was a fairly modern thing (relative to the age of the Chinese arts in question) coined by Sun Lu Tang or at least someone of around his time, so it is probably a stretch to call it ancient. I think it's just terribly non-descriptive, beyond being a loaded term.

Someone handed me a model of what the human body might be capable of which more or less went: "Imagine the majority of all voluntary muscles in your body simultaneously contracting to the fullest of their abilities in a single direction and then instantaneously relaxing." That sure as hell sounded a lot more compelling to me than "ki" or "chi".

Hmm, the human body is such a complex instrument (as are almost all life-forms, and we are naturally largely similar to the others) that generations of scientists and doctors have specialized in attempting to understand and deal with even so-called minor components of it. Yes somehow a vastly simplified view of any aspect is going to give on insight into all the complexities, with no further effort needed? I don't buy it.

So, while certain basics might be fairly easy to convey to someone and get them started on doing their own research (the "ease" of such conveyance should not detract from the difficulty of getting such insight on one's own), such an elementary beginning (analogous to perhaps the letter "A") does not allow such a beginner to even see what might be possible at the letter "Z", let alone do that kind of stuff, not to even speak of putting the various components together into a synthesis to do other vastly more complex and sophisticated stuff. A simple summary might be: If your body is not ready for "B", work at "A" until it is, and progress in understanding from there on that practical basis.

[Buck]

How many of the Aikidoka seminar attendees, or those who have gone beyond to regularly train internal skills- now possibly numbering somewhere in the low hundreds- have reconsidered their view of what aiki is and what they used to think it was in their aikido ™ V Aiki…do?

There was at one point in time, no end of contention, disbelief, and even anger discussing internals as aiki. The discussion were sent off to the NON aikido related wonderland. Something which I found as accurate as saying gravity is unrelated to the discusions of Physics.

I recently read this reply by Kevin Leavitt and it seems to address some of my recent thoughts regarding Aikido™ and Aiki…do.

I found Kevins comments (an Aikidoka) echoing some of my own expressed here:

I most certainly do not and have not ever considered Aikido™ as expressing aiki in any meaningful way, with much or most of what I have seen being either completely wrong in its approach, or just marginally in the right direction.
It reminds me of wondering how you set off from N.Y. trying to get to England and ended up in west Africa.
Time and distance.
All you need do, is give someone a compass just a few degrees off and have them set sail.

If Kevin, Mark, Rob, and others can now more or less say the same things I and others have been saying for years-where do others in Aikido ™ now stand on the issue?
Is the community which has been traveling in large numbers in the wrong direction still behind relegating these discussions to Non-Aikido Martial Traditions Discussions of all non-aikido-specific martial traditions
Or is it finally realizing- by the witness of an ever increasing number of ranked Aikido™ teachers- that this is and was in fact Aiki…do all along and just that many people in Aikido™ missed it.

I have discuss it, and I haven't changed too much. I think Aikido is a complete art in the sense it grows as you grow. It develops as you develop. It is something you don't grow out of . Of course there is rethinking, as you grow you don't see things in the same way. If you go outside of Aikido looking for the Holy "Aiki" Grail and happen to come across someone so says they have the Grail, keep in mind, the Grail isn't out side of Aikido, it is inside Aikido. Aikido is a complete art, it grows with you, it is something as vast a the universe that you can explore for a lifetime. Here I am thinking of how similar that is to Star Treks where exploring yourself is a final frontier, the internal sprirtual- universe. Our map is written not is absract archic phrases, but in the languge of science that can be understood clearer in our modern times.

Thanks for asking that question.

[DH]

have discuss it, and I haven't changed too much. I think Aikido is a complete art in the sense it grows as you grow....
If you go outside of Aikido looking for the Holy "Aiki" Grail and happen to come across someone so says they have the Grail, keep in mind, the Grail isn't out side of Aikido, it is inside Aikido. Aikido is a complete art, it grows with you, it is something as vast a the universe that you can explore for a lifetime.
Well thats -your- view. Apparently many within aikido who have felt it-completely dissagree with you.
As an Aikidoka I left and found it in Daito ryu. Yet It works perfectly fine in Aikido. Why not? It's where it came from.

[Lee Salzman]

Hmm, the human body is such a complex instrument (as are almost all life-forms, and we are naturally largely similar to the others) that generations of scientists and doctors have specialized in attempting to understand and deal with even so-called minor components of it. Yes somehow a vastly simplified view of any aspect is going to give on insight into all the complexities, with no further effort needed? I don't buy it.

So, while certain basics might be fairly easy to convey to someone and get them started on doing their own research (the "ease" of such conveyance should not detract from the difficulty of getting such insight on one's own), such an elementary beginning (analogous to perhaps the letter "A") does not allow such a beginner to even see what might be possible at the letter "Z", let alone do that kind of stuff, not to even speak of putting the various components together into a synthesis to do other vastly more complex and sophisticated stuff. A simple summary might be: If your body is not ready for "B", work at "A" until it is, and progress in understanding from there on that practical basis.

Is it really vastly simplified? Already in this model you have the following things to master: maximality and minimality of tension, coordination and simultaneity of tension throughout the body, the direction and transference of force from one joint to the next, the timescales on which you are capable of sensing and controlling these attributes and removing conscious interference thereof, and the applicability of all of these things to situations one encounters in martial arts. It's a load of confusing stuff already with a bunch of ways to train it, and it's only just from breaking down a simple model of how far a single human movement can go. Simple philosophy, complex break-down!

And if you can draw parallels to what existing athletes are already capable of without even focusing on specifics like this in their training, it only points out how hard and cleverly you need to work if you want mastery above and beyond what they are capable of.

And yeah, it is like learning an alphabet in martial terms, and writing novels is something you do later. But isn't that the premise here? That there is "Aikido" and "aiki-do", one which is concerned with martial expertise beyond our present ability to express, and one which is concerned with working out the basics of what the body can really do first, after which the expression is a much simplified and less dogmatic issue? So isn't the trouble then finding the way through the basics?

But you can look at the term "internal", and it's totally opaque. Doesn't much hint at qualities you need to work on, how hard you need to work on them, and how they finally combine into athletic performance. When the term "internal" was all I had to go on, I was lost with no information, and now by comparison I am just lost with some information. :)

But at least with a simple working model, you can distinguish between "Aikido", execution of waza fundamentally linked to an operating model of the body, and maybe in the extreme even conjure "aiki-do".

[Erick Mead]

Hmm, the human body is such a complex instrument (as are almost all life-forms, and we are naturally largely similar to the others) that generations of scientists and doctors have specialized in attempting to understand and deal with even so-called minor components of it. Yes somehow a vastly simplified view of any aspect is going to give on insight into all the complexities, with no further effort needed? I don't buy it. And yet -- it is precisely so, although effort is still required. Systems which are too chaotic to be predicted nevertheless have demonstrable, if devilishly complex rhythms and patterns that obey VERY simple iterative laws. The intricate complexity of resulting behavior does not imply complexity of the cause or principle that produces it.

The following bifurcation diagram can be generated by the simple linear increase of the rate of flow to a dripping faucet, each point representing the time between drops (y axis) at the rate of flow (x axis).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/LogisticMap_BifurcationDiagram.png/512px-LogisticMap_BifurcationDiagram.png

So do not disregard the reality of simple causes underlying complex events.

[rob_liberti]

I have been trianing with Dan a bit now, and I would not say that aikido is NOT a complete art. I simply just want to progress much further in aikido and his training method is clearly working well towards that end.

I remember when I started being able to copy _most_ of the shihan I encountered and when I found that I could shut down _most_ of the teachers I encountered while they couldn't shut me down. I'm not saying I am all that great - but it happened and it happened before I met Dan. I just trained harder and in what I suspect was a more efficient way than most of those people.

Having trained with Dan a while now, I was faced with a way to train that I found to be much more efficient towards my end goal (which is to manifest the principles of aikido physically so well that I can relate them to the spiritual principles of the kotodama - like I assume Osensei did and have fun growing in martial arts in general along the way) that the choice was clear. I looked for how to encorporate this kind of training into my daily life, how to get correction and guidance as much as possible, and how to figure out how to apply it to what I am doing in aikido class directly.

Much like what I am hearing from my new friends in the Nishio camp, my (our) opinion is that aikido can encorporate anythng else that helps you progress. So my aikido students do some standing exercises with me before and after normal class. I don't tell anyone they have to - they just all felt my power go WAY up, and figured it would be smart to copy me. If they ask me what I'm doing, I do my best to explain.

During normal class, when I do ushiro waza, I teach a wristy-twisty version to help the beginners do the classic aikido type thing where you move in such a way to avoid giving uke a superior angle/leverage. When I go around and help people, I tend to practice myself a bit. I show the people the simple way if they need, and if not, I just practice totally giving uke a 90 degree angle on my arms and doing the technique anyway against their progressive resistance. The progressive resistance approach of aikido rocks becuase if I am sucking at manifesting the internal skill then they instantly feel it and lighten up and let me train where I am at power wise. If I "got it" then they push with all their might and I look for where else I can put my mental intention to make power additives.

But I'm not doing naything absurdly different in my classes. It's not like I'm standing on my head now. I think you'd have to really look for the internal skills I'm encorporating to know I'm doing them in my aikido class. We talked about where you put your mind during say kotegaeshi way before I met Dan. Gleason sensei used to correct my posture all the time too. The difference now, is that I have much better proprioception after training with Dan to the point that I don't get corrected in how I stand all that much anymore - and further I can give people much MUCH more detailed explainations in how they can improve their structure to pull off kotegaeshi in Gleason sensei's way where the uke just seems to magically drop (like his iriminage).

Gleason sensei's experience was something like getting to train in Yamaguchi sensei's private dojo for 10 years where all he would ever get to work out with was people 4th-7th dan every day for hours. And then also going to Takeda sensei's dojo and Honbu dojo as well. We just don't have that kind of kinestetic feedback available to us for relatively long periods of time. My opinion is that that is the only other way you can make such progress efficiently. "Where we are at" is that this kind of thing isn't available to most of us right now! (I still suspect that Dan's approach is even more efficient. At least for the way I seem to learn.)

Where I am at is that the main change in what I do now with aiki-do in my aikido is that a lot of the "magic" is gone replaced with understanding that I proprobably wouldn't have figured out myself for a much longer time if at all - and now I have a lot more time dedicated to working on improving my skills as opposed to spending so much time guessing what they most efficient way to approach my goals might be.

Also, my students are a lot more fun to train with now that they can pretty instantly connect to peoples centers in katatetori techniques. They are going through the frustration period of re-learning how to walk and all - but so am I.

I can write volumes about "where we are at" but I need to get to work!

Rob

[Aikibu]

Hey Rob (and Dan :) ),

Good Stuff...I am curious though...The phrase "shut down" is used allot to describe how well this "aiki" works in a training environment. I have no doubt that it does but that does not interest me as much as how well it works against another fighter in an (for lack of a better phrase) "alive" environment

To be blunt anyone with any modicum of skill can "shutdown" almost anyone else in a training environment but that's because most Aikido folks thinking grabbing someone's wrist is what Aikido is all about. It is to a point I guess but what about when an Aikidoka progresses to more advanced practice?

William Hazen

[rob_liberti]

Well, I agree; when I used the term shut down I was talking about what I could do before I met Dan and started working on aiki directly (and I'm willing to believe you can do such things too).

Here are 2 quotes from Dan on a different thread that seem to relate to your question:

I think managing opposing forces and lines in your body, makes the addition of their force just an 'addition" to the forces you are already managing. This is the "why" in why you don't feel you have to do much to manage them. The better and more efficient you become at it, the less you worry about their force. I think that is an easier way to "say it" or see what is happening. When they think they have you-you have them, sort of thing. This is of course, without starting to discuss enhanced manipulations of forces and directive forces. Zero balance or central equilibrium is just the start of some interesting fun down the road. (The bold was added by me.)

and, more directly:

As for Aiki power (internal power), it is the best way to express action with the body in virtually any fighting style known. Train the mind body first, the expression or art specific "action / tactic / strategy, come later. All that said, finding the ways and means to train the mind /body connection and to develop internal power, and then to learn to develop internal skill "in use” all happen before you should learn or try to fight with it. Your levels of "fighting” may lead to an ability to "not-fight" many people and handle their force expeditiously enough to be considered handling them without harm, but, I'd never-the-less hesitate to make it a declarative statement any time soon. There are hard men that could hand the best teachers in the world the fight of their lives.

Rob

[Buck]

Well thats -your- view. Apparently many within aikido who have felt it-completely dissagree with you.
As an Aikidoka I left and found it in Daito ryu. Yet It works perfectly fine in Aikido. Why not? It's where it came from.

I am sorry, it is my view and it was something you asked of Aikidoka. I gave it. I like Aikido as it is. It may be great for others to add after market their Aikido, but I don't find Aikido lacking. I guess you did, and you looked somewhere else for what you lacked that was to your satisfaction. But everyone does things the same to get results. Some people are left handed and they have problems in the right handed world with some things, and they have to adjust. Maybe that was your situation, maybe your like a left hander, who found what you needed for your adjustment. And there are other "left-handers" that can benefit from your experience.

I find Aikido is fine just the way it is, cause am still learning and am not at a level where finite tweaking, and splitting hairs matters. Maybe someday, but not today. Aikido like I said is vast, unlike many things there are no instant solutions. Aikido is like golf, a difficult game, and no matter what new designed clubs you have, or what real or virtual lessons you take it really all boils down to the player. A trendy new driver isn't going to make you a good golfer if your not. Nor is all the tips in the world going to improve your swing. It is up to you, the golfer, to get out and play the course and develop your skills. Golf is a frustrating and challenging game, like Aikido is an art. Golf is a complete sport as Aikido is a complete art.

Nothing is going to make you instantly better at your game,there is not that special piece of knowledge that will instant to really improve your handicap. Sure a tip here or there will help, but it really doesn't make an amateur into a pro. It just helps marginally, it will only at best take a few strokes off your game. Well if your me two strokes off my game is cause for me to jump up and down in scream for joy.

Internal skills, golf is full of them. Golf is the aiki sport. Maybe people who are looking to improve their Aikido should take up golf, take some lessons and play. Or keep working at Aikido until it happens.

I think if someone is looking to find something they feel they lack in Aikido, maybe what they lack has nothing to do with Aikido. It might have to do with themselves. They may need to be taught differently, not that there is any special hidden knowledge out there that someone has and is teaching it, but rather they are not comprehending what they are being taught in the traditional manner and feel they need outside help - Aikido principles told to them in a different way. They might do well with a good tutor. Or need to learn golf, or something like that. There are lots of ways to improve your Aikido outside of Aikido. I just prefer to stick with Aikido and not go outside of it. I don't blame those who go outside and I expect not to have a finger wagged at me for not going outside of Aikido, because I have faith and confidence in Aikido, and myself.



Please explain part
What is "it":confused: my apology, but I need more details on what "it" is. Cause I don't understand the disagreement you mention.

My apologies once again, I am confused, you didn't find it in Aikido and found "it" (?) in Daito ryu, and "it" works in Aikido? Then with a rhetorical question you follow with a contradicting with what you said above that. Your last statement is really vague, I think I know what your saying, but I don't want to assume it.

I don't write the clearest things in the world either. It would be great if you would humor me and ease my confusion my helping me out and providing more details and stuff

thanks in advance.

[Erick Mead]

Please explain part
What is "it":confused: my apology, but I need more details on what "it" is. Cause I don't understand the disagreement you mention.
... It would be great if you would humor me and ease my confusion my helping me out and providing more details and stuffAfter a few thousand posts on "it" let me cheekily summarize the positions I have heard which, with surprising consistency, run thus:

"You need it. We have it"

"What is it?"

"If you have it, you would know it."

"Is this it?"

"No, that's not it."

"Is this is it?"

"No, that's not it."

[After much reflection & training ]

"I have come to the considered conclusion that [name principle here] plays a part in it"

"That's not it; The fact that you do not understand it when we have repeatedly discussed it means that you do not have it.
... And you need it. We have it ."

ad infinitum

[rob_liberti]

I didn't even know that was in question.

it is refering to internal power, internal skills, and the use of them to the degree that Osensei had developed and hopefully beyond. A good description of internal power was just quoted:

I think managing opposing forces and lines in your body, makes the addition of their force just an 'addition" to the forces you are already managing. This is the "why" in why you don't feel you have to do much to manage them. The better and more efficient you become at it, the less you worry about their force. I think that is an easier way to "say it" or see what is happening. When they think they have you-you have them, sort of thing. This is of course, without starting to discuss enhanced manipulations of forces and directive forces. Zero balance or central equilibrium is just the start of some interesting fun down the road.

and a description of how to be qualified to say you have it to some degree was given (I linked to it in a previous post in this thread) as well:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ate#post209299

The thread is "where we are at" - and the answer is starting to look like the various levels of grief. I can almost pick out each post and assign: anger, depression, bargaining, denial, or acceptance.

where anger is: how dare you say what I'm doing isn't valid enough or whatever flavor of that

depression is: I can't believe I wasted 30 years of my life training so hard and I missed it

bargaining is:
a) Well, we do some breathing in our classes, and that is part of internal power - can we say we are do the same thing as you?
reply: no.
b) Well, we also have unbendable arm! Now can we say we are doing the same thing as you?
reply: no.
c) Well, I'm looking at this from some other angle maybe we are talking past each other.
eventual reply: okay what can you do and how long does it take your students to be able to do it too?
... generally no much of a response to that....
followed with: forget it lets meet

denial is:
a) You are not defining things well enough in writing!
reply: You have to feel it for the same reasons you yourself most likely would have told someone else you can't learn aikido in a book
b) Well if you can't define it perfectly, it doesn't exist
reply: but I can do all these things I never could do before training this way, and look at what the people who've been training this way longer than me can do...
c) well, what about that is necessarily aikido?!
best reply to that so far: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ate#post209299

and acceptance is:
a) wow thanks! how come no one showed me this stuff
or see depression...

I thought the point of this thread was for the people who made it to acceptance, and we were going to argue the various other options in other threads. But, maybe I got it wrong.

Rob

[MM]

I thought the point of this thread was for the people who made it to acceptance, and we were going to argue the various other options in other threads. But, maybe I got it wrong.

Rob

No, you have it right. Other people seem to want to argue about whether it exists or not and if it fits their physics. Other threads are there for that.

[Lee Salzman]

I thought the point of this thread was for the people who made it to acceptance, and we were going to argue the various other options in other threads. But, maybe I got it wrong.

Rob

Acceptance is one thing, but we need to be careful about replacing one unquestionable dogma with another, especially when waving the banner of "internal skill", something far less specific a classification than "aiki". We were implored to go out and feel stuff and see what it got us - but no doubt few if anyone will come back with the same experiences or even conclusions, especially on a subject where many are holding cards close to their chest.

I know I sure went out in search of the Arctic and found the Antarctic instead - a different side of training the same body to do some different but interconnected things. I'm still really curious about what's going on up at the opposite pole, but I know there was some cool (pun?) stuff down on the other side too. :)

But even then I had to broaden my view beyond what the discussion has been on these forums up to now to see that and accept what I found for what it was. So if I found a different side to the same subject area, who is to say the subject area is flat and only has two sides, nevermind one? There's probably a limit to how faceted training of body movement can get, but it's probably closer to a dodecahedron than a flat plane.

[Erick Mead]

I didn't even know that was in question. If you have forgotten there was a question -- should you be so sure of the answer?

---it is refering to internal power, internal skills, and the use of them to the degree that Osensei had developed and hopefully beyond. A good description of internal power was just quoted: Your link was truncated and does not work. His question illustrates my point that those who are doing what you have moved into, discuss things in their own vague idiom (actually several) and thus do not articulate their points well at all. They are an echo chamber so they sound hollow -- whether they are or not.

The point of my effort is not to tear them down but to refine the articulation of these points. They are worthwhile, worthwhile enough they need a better level of discussion so it can be objectively examined by people unfamiliar with their idiomatic terms of discussion. That way the other people can decide their opinions for themselves on reason and fact, not loaded discussion dripping with innuendo and accusation paired with braggadocio and assurances of trust. (most definitively NOT you :) ).

I thought the point of this thread was for the people who made it to acceptance, and we were going to argue the various other options in other threads. But, maybe I got it wrong. In any discussion there is the following of the logic of the discussion, but also a questioning of assumptions on which the logic is based. In fact the whole topic is founded on questioning some assumptions on which the formulation of training is based -- which is a healthy thing. I accept there is a basis for some criticism of the way training is done in some places. But acknowledging symptoms does not equate with agreement on diagnosis, much less treatment. But it cuts both ways, and while the salutary criticism is good, people need to be willing to take as good as they give when it comes to questioning assumptions.
-
I am one of those guys. When somebody rebuts a point of observation or criticism I have made, without the tiresome resorting to reflexive ad hom. ( again, not from you :) ), I'll quit questioning. As things stand now, not so much.

[DH]

Phil
Its been gone over many times in the threads. We -meaning dozens of guys who are now training-sometimes tire of repeating the details. In fairness your question is a solid one though.
The general idea is that you need to work on your body. There are ways to train that strengthen your held balance- your central equilibrium or zero balance state. Think of it like being suspended between managed lines of opposing forces you control. Because they support each other, and leave you stable and relaxed anyone who interacts with you becomes part of a line of force you already manage. Once your body is trained you can begin to use it to make aiki happen on contact.

Some wierd effects that are consistent with an idea folks may have of aiki-that being blending: I can send a line of force that wants to push me up and over 45 deg to my rear by actually agreeing with it (not moving on the outside) with a managed line of force in me that is natural while sinking down through me on its opposite. There is a whole other aspect of "polishing the mirror" but thats not for here. Thus they wind up pushing down, while they swear they are attempting to push up and over. This works great for arm to arm grappling where they have to close the distance or shoot.

You train to failure statically and then of course in waza then in motion or freestyle. Always the same; static, waza, motion.
Some of the benefits are when you touch someone they are like a spider touching your held web. You can find their center instantly and control it. If they move, you move. There are so many side benefits; speed in motion due to lack of slack in the body, very substantial striking power, and an extremely difficult body to throw or lock, and heightened sensitivity to positioning and change.
After all of that, there are ways to use your newly trained body in different martial applications that are fairly common in the arts. The art doesn't matter. It is your choice. Kata is NOT the way to train aiki, Kata are the result of aiki in changing and controlling force.It takes years to do.
Thats just some very basic concepts to consider.
It expresses itself in any grappling art- where there is an on going and rapid interchange of force and postional change coupled with power strikes, rather well.

The reason you will find so many converts is that it is the heart of what aiki is. Once you feel it-there is no debate. The ones who debate here have not felt it and some are just bitter that it is stated so flatly and confidently. Where I might disagree with you about aikido being complete in that
a)all of this knowledge is there
b) Where there is some ,whether it is taught

What we are doing is to teach openly. People train their bodies specifically for aiki in a manner that is clear, decisive and demonstrative. You may want to take note that many are reporting results from still short periods of time. More good news? We actually have students with demonstrable skills that you can find.

There are very few left over, naysayers here. Most rational people have looked past us and fairly and intelligently accepted the words of so many of their own at face value. A few are hanging on and denying the consistent testimony of many experienced aikidoka and debate for debate sake.
Good luck in your training

[ChrisMoses]

Hey Rob (and Dan :) ),

Good Stuff...I am curious though...The phrase "shut down" is used allot to describe how well this "aiki" works in a training environment. I have no doubt that it does but that does not interest me as much as how well it works against another fighter in an (for lack of a better phrase) "alive" environment

To be blunt anyone with any modicum of skill can "shutdown" almost anyone else in a training environment but that's because most Aikido folks thinking grabbing someone's wrist is what Aikido is all about. It is to a point I guess but what about when an Aikidoka progresses to more advanced practice?

William Hazen

Personally, I just feel that there's a different quality in the kind of "shutdown" I used to be able to do relative to what I think Dan and Rob (and others) are talking about here (and what I can now do).

It's kind of a difference between active resistance and sort of a structural tone (for lack of a better term). Example? I'll try...

A) Old way: someone tries to put kotegaeshi on you, but you're able to adjust the angle and your balance so that they're not able to get enough leverage to really get the throw, or maybe you slip the lock before they can really get it set up. Either way, you're doing something, meaning there's some strategy/technique that you're using. Traditionally this is where the whole kaeshiwaza reverse-reverse-reverse-reverse back and forth happens (if you're playing that).

B) New way: someone tries to put kotegaeshi on you but they just run into a freakin' wall. They can't even get it started but from their vantage point, you're not doing anything. From uke's side, you're not having to coordinate or do much of anything to keep the technique from happening, it's just like the pressure on you (through the technique) just kind of dissipates all across your body (at least that's how it feels to me). Nage typically shoots you a weird look like, WTF is that? BUT (and here's an important distinction) you're not tense or resisting the technique, so you're able to move at full speed along whatever lines you choose, because you haven't had to adjust yourself to block the technique, it just kind of feels like it bounces off, or dissipates around/through you.

Don't know if that helps (or if it's what Rob, Dan, etc were actually talking about, but it's how things are working for me these days).

[MM]

Personally, I just feel that there's a different quality in the kind of "shutdown" I used to be able to do relative to what I think Dan and Rob (and others) are talking about here (and what I can now do).

It's kind of a difference between active resistance and sort of a structural tone (for lack of a better term). Example? I'll try...

A) Old way: someone tries to put kotegaeshi on you, but you're able to adjust the angle and your balance so that they're not able to get enough leverage to really get the throw, or maybe you slip the lock before they can really get it set up. Either way, you're doing something, meaning there's some strategy/technique that you're using. Traditionally this is where the whole kaeshiwaza reverse-reverse-reverse-reverse back and forth happens (if you're playing that).

B) New way: someone tries to put kotegaeshi on you but they just run into a freakin' wall. They can't even get it started but from their vantage point, you're not doing anything. From uke's side, you're not having to coordinate or do much of anything to keep the technique from happening, it's just like the pressure on you (through the technique) just kind of dissipates all across your body (at least that's how it feels to me). Nage typically shoots you a weird look like, WTF is that? BUT (and here's an important distinction) you're not tense or resisting the technique, so you're able to move at full speed along whatever lines you choose, because you haven't had to adjust yourself to block the technique, it just kind of feels like it bounces off, or dissipates around/through you.

Don't know if that helps (or if it's what Rob, Dan, etc were actually talking about, but it's how things are working for me these days).

Hi Chris,

Great post and example. Ditto for me. The only difference I'd note for me is that when working with joint locks, I seem to be able to "store" the force coming into my body in my lower back and then send it back out again. Weird feeling.

[Aikibu]

Personally, I just feel that there's a different quality in the kind of "shutdown" I used to be able to do relative to what I think Dan and Rob (and others) are talking about here (and what I can now do).

It's kind of a difference between active resistance and sort of a structural tone (for lack of a better term). Example? I'll try...

A) Old way: someone tries to put kotegaeshi on you, but you're able to adjust the angle and your balance so that they're not able to get enough leverage to really get the throw, or maybe you slip the lock before they can really get it set up. Either way, you're doing something, meaning there's some strategy/technique that you're using. Traditionally this is where the whole kaeshiwaza reverse-reverse-reverse-reverse back and forth happens (if you're playing that).

B) New way: someone tries to put kotegaeshi on you but they just run into a freakin' wall. They can't even get it started but from their vantage point, you're not doing anything. From uke's side, you're not having to coordinate or do much of anything to keep the technique from happening, it's just like the pressure on you (through the technique) just kind of dissipates all across your body (at least that's how it feels to me). Nage typically shoots you a weird look like, WTF is that? BUT (and here's an important distinction) you're not tense or resisting the technique, so you're able to move at full speed along whatever lines you choose, because you haven't had to adjust yourself to block the technique, it just kind of feels like it bounces off, or dissipates around/through you.

Don't know if that helps (or if it's what Rob, Dan, etc were actually talking about, but it's how things are working for me these days).

I understand what you're saying Chris but "B" seems kind of garbled to me in the sense that Uke attacks Nage tries KG in most training paradigms unless kaeshiwaza comes into play. As far as application goes I feel I have experienced both Aiki and Non Aiki; I am sure not to the degree you guys have but Aiki is there...It just a matter of discovering understanding and applying it.

Which brings up another point The use of Aiki by both Uke and Nage.

A long time Aikido guy who has experienced a few of you came out to our Dojo. One thing we both agreed on...Aiki is good for old folks in the sense that it should be used to finish the conflict as we old guys don't have the physical acumen to out fight younger quicker dudes LOL. :D

William Hazen

[rob_liberti]

Not knowing something is still even in question doesn't mean I "forgot".

Here is the link that didn't work that I thought would be helpful:
(not taking any chances, no fancy links this time!)
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=209299&postcount=21

Here is a copy paste:

Mary Malmros wrote:
So -- please point me to a FAQ if there is one -- exactly what is "internal skill"? Or "internal power"? Maybe there's a coherent, consensus answer to that, but I expect what I'll hear is more like the blind men describing the elephant.

Hi Mary:

I don't know of any accredited "FAQ", but Koichi Tohei's book "This Is Aikido, With Mind and Body Coordinated" was written under the auspices of Hombu Dojo and so Tohei's comments and particularly his (and his students) demonstrations would qualify as a Rosetta Stone from which to derive the basis of something like a FAQ. In other words, Tohei's "Ki Tests" and demonstrations in that book were done at the time when he was still the chief instructor and the book was approved by Ueshiba M.... so the physical demonstrations of "ki" (aka "internal strength", etc.) are pretty concrete starting points. Of course a lot of people are going to offer opinions of what they think ki is, but my comment would be that before someone has the right to claim they know what ki is, they should be able to demonstrate all those simple examples in Tohei's book.

Based on conversations and my own experiences with a few of the regual AikiWeb posters who I consider credible about at least some aspects of internal strength, I don't think that baseline of "be able to do Tohei's ki tests" would be questioned by any of them. So maybe that's a good starting point? I don't know if Tohei ever had a baby, so I'll have to demur on that point of the discussion.

Best.

Mike Sigman

-----end of the cut and paste ----

Hope it helps. Sorry for my poor aikiweb skills!

Rob

[Erick Mead]

Kata is NOT the way to train aiki, Kata are the result of aiki in changing and controlling force.It takes years to do. Kata without bunkai have never been the way to train ANYTHING. 分解 ? "untie/unravel + small piece" i.e. -- "analysis." Without bunkai there is no basis to extend the principle/concept/body structure/form of movement beyond the constraint of the precise kata form or exercise used to develop it. What Kenji Ushiro calls "useability."

Tohei's ki exercises that Rob was referring to in his broken link are his version of bunkai. The "body structuring" movement that Mike S. relates to the ki tests and kokyu undo are another way to the same functional end. That's a large part of what you are doing --you, Ark, Mike and the rest -- various methods of bunkai without the kata/waza/whatever you choose -- to use as a reference form. Tohei's effort was no different in purpose and effect -- just a different method to breakdown what is going on in more general terms in the specific instances of set waza. It allows variations on the waza and novel movements to express the same things. Saotome's insistence on seeking "principles" are also bunkai in this same way. In a more subtle way, so is Saito's ki-no-nagare progression method and its openness to examine inevitable "mistakes" resulting from the contingencies of action at speed without impeding smooth, stable movement All bunkai -- all different methods of breaking down the parts.

While bunkai is not intellectual in action it is an intellectual exercise to structure training in an attempt to encompass representative aspects of the entire space of possible interactions with the sketch marks of set movements. Understanding mechanics is just another form of bunkai and not a replacement for sound physical training.

Some people along the way may have forgotten the aspect of bunkai in their aikido training, but there are many versions and approaches to doing the bunkai work.

[rob_liberti]

Okay, I only mention that because it directly relates a way to demonstrate the skills we practice in aiki-do with aikido. My point is that I've made more progress towards being able to demonstrate such things by training aiki-do. -Rob

[gdandscompserv]

You train to failure statically and then of course in waza then in motion or freestyle. Always the same; static, waza, motion.
Dan,
Would you please explain what you mean when you say "train to failure?"
Thank You,
Ricky

[Buck]

Phil
Its been gone over many times in the threads. We -meaning dozens of guys who are now training-sometimes tire of repeating the details. In fairness your question is a solid one though.
The general idea is that you need to work on your body. There are ways to train that strengthen your held balance- your central equilibrium or zero balance state. Think of it like being suspended between managed lines of opposing forces you control. Because they support each other, and leave you stable and relaxed anyone who interacts with you becomes part of a line of force you already manage. Once your body is trained you can begin to use it to make aiki happen on contact.

Some wierd effects that are consistent with an idea folks may have of aiki-that being blending: I can send a line of force that wants to push me up and over 45 deg to my rear by actually agreeing with it (not moving on the outside) with a managed line of force in me that is natural while sinking down through me on its opposite. There is a whole other aspect of "polishing the mirror" but thats not for here. Thus they wind up pushing down, while they swear they are attempting to push up and over. This works great for arm to arm grappling where they have to close the distance or shoot.

You train to failure statically and then of course in waza then in motion or freestyle. Always the same; static, waza, motion.
Some of the benefits are when you touch someone they are like a spider touching your held web. You can find their center instantly and control it. If they move, you move. There are so many side benefits; speed in motion due to lack of slack in the body, very substantial striking power, and an extremely difficult body to throw or lock, and heightened sensitivity to positioning and change.
After all of that, there are ways to use your newly trained body in different martial applications that are fairly common in the arts. The art doesn't matter. It is your choice. Kata is NOT the way to train aiki, Kata are the result of aiki in changing and controlling force.It takes years to do.
Thats just some very basic concepts to consider.
It expresses itself in any grappling art- where there is an on going and rapid interchange of force and postional change coupled with power strikes, rather well.

The reason you will find so many converts is that it is the heart of what aiki is. Once you feel it-there is no debate. The ones who debate here have not felt it and some are just bitter that it is stated so flatly and confidently. Where I might disagree with you about aikido being complete in that
a)all of this knowledge is there
b) Where there is some ,whether it is taught

What we are doing is to teach openly. People train their bodies specifically for aiki in a manner that is clear, decisive and demonstrative. You may want to take note that many are reporting results from still short periods of time. More good news? We actually have students with demonstrable skills that you can find.

There are very few left over, naysayers here. Most rational people have looked past us and fairly and intelligently accepted the words of so many of their own at face value. A few are hanging on and denying the consistent testimony of many experienced aikidoka and debate for debate sake.
Good luck in your training

I understand what you are saying. I respect your disagreement with me. I was taught what you laid out to be something you develop over time and practice. That is the hard part. That is the explanation for why everyone is not at the same level.

We are talking about a natural law, that I don't know the scientific name, but it is universal and functions Aikido and other stuff, right. If you think it isn't in Aikido then it can be applied.

Training the body then is a matter likened to conditioning in sports? Conditioning exercises practice for the specific sport is what I am saying.

I do agree that if it is about conditioning that enhances performance , with the addition of the natural law then there will be noticeable results, more so if without any of that. Applying scientific principles and laws will only enhance Aikido. I see that those laws already exist in Aikido. I see Aikido as a adventure to explore, a universe. Sure it isn't easy to do train this way, and sure some people like me don't have the time or resourse to be that devote, but really it is the journey that is most important, and not the journey's end. Peace.

[rob_liberti]

but really it is the journey that is most important, and not the journey's end. Peace.

I am glad we are discussing things at this point as THE same journey.

Just to be clear, training what Dan is teaching is not the journey's end either - it just makes the journey a much more interesting journey. Further, what has been the issue on other threads is if the various paths on "the journey" all go to the same place, and really if the typical path of aikido has any realistic chance of ever getting anywhere near where you are trying to go in comparison to the path of someone directly studying aiki...do along side of aikido.

I believe discussing the path of someone directly studying aiki...do along side of aikido is more the intent of this thread as opposed to any more debates about the theories (which can be done and have already been done to death in many many other threads).

Rob

[ChrisMoses]

I understand what you're saying Chris but "B" seems kind of garbled to me in the sense that Uke attacks Nage tries KG in most training paradigms unless kaeshiwaza comes into play. As far as application goes I feel I have experienced both Aiki and Non Aiki; I am sure not to the degree you guys have but Aiki is there...It just a matter of discovering understanding and applying it.

Which brings up another point The use of Aiki by both Uke and Nage.

Hmm, I think we're missing each other in the verbage. I don't think you got my comments (based on your reply) but I'm not sure what you're getting at here either... I was trying to illustrate the kind of shutdown that I have experienced with someone who has the kind of internal dynamics/structure that I think we're talking about here, and how it's qualitatively different from when you get shutdown by someone using either muscular strength or some overt mechanical strategy.

A long time Aikido guy who has experienced a few of you came out to our Dojo.

There's MORE of me??? :eek: No wonder I feel so scattered all the time... :p

One thing we both agreed on...Aiki is good for old folks in the sense that it should be used to finish the conflict as we old guys don't have the physical acumen to out fight younger quicker dudes LOL. :D

William Hazen

True dat. In my Thursday classes I've been teaching, I've really been trying to bring forward the very different feelings that arise from doing things with 'aiki' vs. even skillful leverage or timing. It's just qualitatively different, and a lot of folks who I've showed the stuff I'm working on have found it different from what they've felt before. I really believe that the vast majority of people in Aikido, have never felt real aiki as I use the term. And just to be completely clear, I've never felt you, William, or seen you or your students so I'm not saying or implying anything about your abilities or exposures, I'm talking in VERY general terms here... :) I didn't want you any of my comments to be taken personally as that was not my intent.

[Aikibu]

Hmm, I think we're missing each other in the verbage. I don't think you got my comments (based on your reply) but I'm not sure what you're getting at here either... I was trying to illustrate the kind of shutdown that I have experienced with someone who has the kind of internal dynamics/structure that I think we're talking about here, and how it's qualitatively different from when you get shutdown by someone using either muscular strength or some overt mechanical strategy.

I get it now. :)

There's MORE of me??? :eek: No wonder I feel so scattered all the time... :p

Don't you remember that one time at band camp when you thought you were abducted by aliens?

They did clone you you know. LOL :D

True dat. In my Thursday classes I've been teaching, I've really been trying to bring forward the very different feelings that arise from doing things with 'aiki' vs. even skillful leverage or timing. It's just qualitatively different, and a lot of folks who I've showed the stuff I'm working on have found it different from what they've felt before. I really believe that the vast majority of people in Aikido, have never felt real aiki as I use the term. And just to be completely clear, I've never felt you, William, or seen you or your students so I'm not saying or implying anything about your abilities or exposures, I'm talking in VERY general terms here... :) I didn't want you any of my comments to be taken personally as that was not my intent.

Bro we're just a couple of dudes walking up the same mountain and I consider you an Aiki brother. :)

William Hazen

[MM]

In regards to this post:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=212661&postcount=316


Mark
I am still working on an answer to your post. I had a very busy weekend.

Just a post to jog your memory. :)

Mark