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tuturuhan
06-21-2008, 09:58 AM
Look for the similarities between Chinese Martial Arts (baqua) and aikido:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_9Ia-1KM-c

The idea is to flank and strike from behind. The circular footwork increases the velocity of the strikes by employing centrifigal force and gravitional pull/push.

Sincerely
Joseph t. Oliva Arriola

Martin Goodyear
08-06-2008, 04:37 AM
I'm a bit surprised and dissapointed that no one's responded to this thread. I don't think the attacks were strong enough to really show off the bagua convincingly, bit aikido/bagua similarities ar well worth exploring.

Bruce Kumar Frantzis (an American Bagua lineage holder) is pretty convinced that O-Sensei (and Frantzis, apparently, trained at Hombu dojo and saw him in action) encountered Bagua whilst in China. I have no idea if there was such an opportunity, but tend to think that universal principles lend themselves to independant rediscovery. But maybe he is right, for the political climate in Japan would not have lent itself to acknowledging Chinese martial influences. One might like to think that O'Sensei was above such considerations, but he was probably a wily old fox and he did want to promote his art. If any O-Sensei historian-types have an opinion on Frantzis's O-Sensei Bagua hypothesis, I'd certainly like to hear them.

Here's some Frantzis clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4u5zN69nBQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0RDKfTm6pY

The training method of Bagua - walking in a circle - is an interesting format for trying out aikido moves. I've done it a bit, but not much. Also, learning the basic palm change and seeing how it relates to aikido is insightful. Being a solo practice, one can focus more on discovering the natural lines and spirals within one's body as you move and turn - then translate this into aikido moves. I think that because, in aikido, we're always working with a partner, it is easy to miss the subtle ways in which we can increase the efficiency of our own movement.

I believe that Bagua, as well as circling and evading, also uses a blast through the centre strategy that may equate with irimi. With the forever (often unproductive) "real situation" debate in aikido, to which I confess an interest, one would think that a close look at Bagua (which in the early 20th century China had a fearsome reputation) would provide a lucrative avenue for research. The little I've done has taught me a bit about what a more atemi-based aikido might look/feel like, but unfortunately I'm not qualified to lead such a discussion.

All the best,
Martin.

lifeafter2am
08-06-2008, 06:31 AM
I have never seen this before, but it does look very interesting. I did a quick search for a school (I would like to see it in person) but looks to be an elusive martial art to find.

akiy
08-06-2008, 10:20 AM
Bruce Kumar Frantzis (an American Bagua lineage holder) is pretty convinced that O-Sensei (and Frantzis, apparently, trained at Hombu dojo and saw him in action) encountered Bagua whilst in China.
Amongst other posts on this subject in these Forums, here's Chris Li quoting Ellis Amdur on the subject:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...9467#post79467 (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=79467#post79467)

-- Jun

Martin Goodyear
08-08-2008, 05:43 AM
Thanks Jun,

I should have guessed that this would have been discussed before on AikiWeb - interesting thread.

Nice to see that all the speculation is good natured, since it is only speculation of course. Regarding Ellis Amdur's response, I think the fact that aikido doesn't do the bagua 'wringing' thing with torso and legs facing different directions is a big stylistic point.

However, I don't think that someone at Ueshiba's level would need to study with a master to gain significant insights into, and be influenced by, another art. Of course, there's no substitute for training, but Ueshiba's understanding of martial arts must have given his eyes to see things that others would miss. After all, many an aikido person might spot a tai chi subtlety, but understand it in different terms and seek to apply it differently - and this is O-Sensei we're talking about.

So maybe O-Sensei did see some bagua. Then again, maybe God just told him that circles were cool.

Fun to speculate though,
Martin.

ChrisHein
08-08-2008, 11:35 AM
Look for the similarities between Chinese Martial Arts (baqua) and aikido:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_9Ia-1KM-c

The idea is to flank and strike from behind. The circular footwork increases the velocity of the strikes by employing centrifigal force and gravitional pull/push.

Sincerely
Joseph t. Oliva Arriola

The Greeks figured that one out too didn't they?

tuturuhan
08-08-2008, 11:48 AM
The Greeks figured that one out too didn't they?

Funny you should mention...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOBFc90OCac

Perhaps, "phi" the golden mean applies to all maritial arts, japanese, chinese, filipino, and greek.

jennifer paige smith
08-08-2008, 12:09 PM
Good Morning Tuhan,

Let's just take it one step further and include "all creation arts", including martial arts, by means of.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_geometry.

Thank You,
Jen

tuturuhan
08-08-2008, 12:55 PM
Good Morning Tuhan,

Let's just take it one step further and include "all creation arts", including martial arts, by means of.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_geometry.

Thank You,
Jen

Jenn,

On the second day of my seminar in Athens, the Sifu (Vagelis Zorbas) who sponsored the seminar gave me a book entitled "Sacred Geometry".

Interestingly, I had seen the book several years before but I shied away it given my limited high school math knowledge. It wasn't until I started homeschooling my 10 year old in algebra and geometry was I "ready" to read the book.

It was as if the "Greeks/Greece were/was there to teach me...rather then them learning from me.

Tuhan