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Upyu
06-18-2008, 07:43 PM
<snip>
Just to read his words again reminds me of how lucky we are to have folks like O'Sensei, him, and the good folks here at Aikiweb to guide us. :)


Yeah, but quoting Bruce Lee as a credible source isn't very "credible" since he really had no idea about the body mechanics being discussed .
(Though, given his attitude, I'm sure he would eventually evolved in that direction, if he met the right person)

Aikibu
06-18-2008, 07:50 PM
Yeah, but quoting Bruce Lee as a credible source isn't very "credible" since he really had no idea about the body mechanics being discussed .
(Though, given his attitude, I'm sure he would eventually evolved in that direction, if he met the right person)

Ummmmm Ahhhhh Ok man sure....If you say so. :)

William Hazen

Upyu
06-18-2008, 08:29 PM
Ummmmm Ahhhhh Ok man sure....If you say so. :)

William Hazen

I'd bet good money on it, especially from my own meager abilities to do this stuff.

Just take a look at his "infamous" one-inch punch demo.
It's more do with a snap of the waist than with a connection down to the foot.

I wouldn't take it from just me though, anyone I've met that has competency with internal skills has said the same thing ;)

Aikibu
06-18-2008, 08:48 PM
I'd bet good money on it, especially from my own meager abilities to do this stuff.

Just take a look at his "infamous" one-inch punch demo.
It's more do with a snap of the waist than with a connection down to the foot.

I wouldn't take it from just me though, anyone I've met that has competency with internal skills has said the same thing ;)

Well Robert you'd lose the bet :)...And don't rely on anyone else even those who are competent. Do your own research....Understand the true meaning behind Dan Hardin's Sig Line. ;) and Bruce's "Be like Water"

Bruce Lee was both a traditionalist and a radical in the Martial Arts and after all these years he still can generate a good debate...

William Hazen

Upyu
06-18-2008, 09:06 PM
Well Robert you'd lose the bet :)...And don't rely on anyone else even those who are competent. Do your own research....Understand the true meaning behind Dan Hardin's Sig Line. ;) and Bruce's "Be like Water"

Bruce Lee was both a traditionalist and a radical in the Martial Arts and after all these years he still can generate a good debate...

William Hazen

Lol...
Right, I find that quote extremely ironic dude. But I suggest you PM Hardin as to why ;)

He was radical for his time in his "public" idea of mixing the MAs.
The fact that he patronized the "dead forms" meant he didn't understand what the "dead forms and patterns" were meant to train.
Taking a quick look at his ub3r tome, it's pretty quick to see what he didn't have any "jin"/kokyu power/qi etc.
Otherwise he'd be emphasizing different conditioning methods, not to mention that he'd be showcasing a different way of moving.

Kevin Leavitt
06-18-2008, 10:29 PM
Bill,

I think it depends on the angle of attack as to which one works better. It is situational and positional I think. I personally don't like striking with my fist all that much, but there is a time and place for it.

Tim Fong
06-19-2008, 12:21 AM
Lol...
Right, I find that quote extremely ironic dude. But I suggest you PM Hardin as to why ;)

He was radical for his time in his "public" idea of mixing the MAs.
The fact that he patronized the "dead forms" meant he didn't understand what the "dead forms and patterns" were meant to train.
Taking a quick look at his ub3r tome, it's pretty quick to see what he didn't have any "jin"/kokyu power/qi etc.
Otherwise he'd be emphasizing different conditioning methods, not to mention that he'd be showcasing a different way of moving.

Yep, and the modern Wing Chun people who are good, can neutralize the speed/power method that Bruce used. But you knew that :)

Aikibu
06-19-2008, 01:13 AM
Wow if I am not careful "debating" Bruce Lee's Legacy is going to take over the discussion....

Just like I said LOL :)

For my part I guess everyone was so blinded by my Bruce Lee referance they missed the point of that post...

That's a nice set of boxes you're all sitting in.

Comfey? LOL :)

William Hazen

Upyu
06-19-2008, 03:13 AM
Wow if I am not careful "debating" Bruce Lee's Legacy is going to take over the discussion....



Actually mine's a little oval, and quite comfortable William,
but maybe you could add some more padding to the box and give us a hint that you even know what you're talking about when it comes to internal mechanics ;)

Aikibu
06-19-2008, 10:51 AM
Actually mine's a little oval, and quite comfortable William,
but maybe you could add some more padding to the box and give us a hint that you even know what you're talking about when it comes to internal mechanics ;)

Sorry Robert...If in the future you decide to ask that question with a bit of humility.... Then perhaps I will engage in a discussion with you. As it is... I have my own students who need help with Blackbelt disease. :)

I originally only mentioned Bruce (whom I met as a young child) for the inspiration he gave to me to step out of the box not to tout his or my knowledge of the Internal Arts which is well documented here and elswhere.

Now it is time to go surf... and comtemplate the blessings of being alive. :)

Have a nice day. :)

William Hazen

HL1978
06-19-2008, 12:16 PM
Meeting some guys with internal skills is what took me out of the box I had been playing around in for a number of years.

Upyu
06-19-2008, 08:02 PM
Sorry Robert...If in the future you decide to ask that question with a bit of humility.... Then perhaps I will engage in a discussion with you. As it is... I have my own students who need help with Blackbelt disease. :)
<snip>


William,

One major giveaway that he wasn't, even without looking at him move, is simply the musculature of his body. (Which thankfully for the purposes of our discussion he bared all the time).

The guy was slim, athletic yes. But his waist showed almost no muscular development characteristic of someone that had these skills. No signature development of the middle, legs and more importantly, not much in the illial psoa region. Those two are dead giveaways and he didn't have it.

Not to mention the fact that his movement is simply pylometric.
Impressive athletically? Hell yes. But it's still not related to anything that was being discussed in these threads.

Putting aside my attitude, maybe you can point out "why" you think Bruce is internal?

Like Mike said earlier, I think we're doing different things, which is fine. But masquerading around saying "yes we do that too" just doesn't cut it ;)

Al Gutierrez
06-20-2008, 03:40 AM
Sorry to jump in here, but I have to whole heartedly agree with Robert on this. As much as I'm fan of his Bruce wasn't an IMA guy. I guess it it just goes to show how many people have no idea about what's been being discussed.

I also think that I understand why Mike won't even delve into some of the deeper details of this stuff and why Rob comes off sounding a bit arrogant for his age and experience at times, whether they lack humility is beside the point IMO because so many folks do not even get the basics yet of what's being talked about. What people say and believe is often a dead giveaway to those who really know what they're talking about.

I was taught that one has to empty your cup if you want to progress in your understanding of the inner aspects of budo. You have to throw out much of your understanding of things if you really want to understand the workings of IMA just like you have to recondition and wire your body to move differently you also have to change how you think. In reality the process is really one of opening your eyes to see things that aren't normally seen. It's not a matter of sight so much as perception. I think that can only be taught and developed in a direct hands-on manner. It wasn't a coincidence that Ueshiba sensei said that Takeda sensei "opened his eyes to budo", I think that's exactly that's exactly what he meant.

Anyhow, people can believe whatever they want to believe, but Bruce's body, his movements, his training regimen, his teachings and his writings didn't exhibit much if any evidence of IMA skills, and in fact show far more of the opposite (imho).

Respectfully,

Al Gtz.

Aikibu
06-20-2008, 11:12 AM
Mr John said...

Though, given his attitude, I'm sure he would eventually evolved in that direction, if he met the right person

One can read the Tao of Jeet Kun Do a few times and never get this...

We'll never know if he would have evolved in that direction but givin the premise of his book and his intent before he died but I would continue to argue he would have.

So to end this properly... Dinner is on me....

My intention was to honor Bruce for the role he had making Chinese Martial Arts popular in the US and he efforts to get practicioners to improve themselves by stepping out of the box of thier respective "systems" and experimenting.

So sorry please relax now. :D

William Hazen

David Orange
06-22-2008, 10:31 PM
Well, whatever....but I don't think Bruce would have ever accepted any kind of "soft" style instruction and I doubt that he would ever have learned any internal arts because he would have viciously fought anyone who tried to show him anything.

When confronted by an old man who claimed he could absorb anyone's pushing power, remember, Bruce punched the old man in the face.

And consider his fight with Man Jack Wong:

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

Wong had internal arts training in China before he met Lee and he continued to develop in tai chi, bagua and xing yi after the fight.

Wong is still teaching to this day, I believe, but Lee was dead within eight years of the fight and very likely because of misguided attempts to leap, by inhumanly intense exertions in external training, to the kinds of strength that can only be developed through internal methods.

Man Jack Wong was probably Bruce's best chance to learn something about internal arts, as well as something about the camaraderie of martial arts--by accepting a peer as his equal or perhaps his superior. As it was, he was probably lucky that Wong didn't kill him in that fight.

Of course, Bruce was charismatic and inspiring. Jackie Chan credits Bruce with making him realize that it was possible to think in terms of impressing the entire world instead of just a few people at a time. But wise? Most people don't develop much in the way of real wisdom by 33 and Bruce was dead at 32. I think he did meet the right person, but he went to his grave without ever recognizing it.

David