Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

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[graham]

Hi folks,

I've just seen a couple of videos on youtube that were really interesting.

Is Nikkyo really an attack? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM0LzKkTIUA&NR=1)

Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL2R8sfMPEc&feature=user)

What do you think?

[Shany]

wonderful!

[senshincenter]

I think the fact that uke is either placed or places (himself) to keep his feet still is what is raising the issues and their solutions here. I know that a lot of folks do Nikyo from the front like that, with Uke just standing there and going down and tapping from the pain, but I personally don't feel that pain compliance is or should be a part of any lock or pin. For me, locks should include throws, and this means that locks and pins are no more than ways of following and/or controlling descents. From this perspective, it's really quite problematic to have a guy just standing there till you do Nikyo on him (long before he performs the counter in the video). For me, any time you have a guy just standing there, he can push through your center, establish his own, etc., and counter a technique. However, if you have him already in an angle of disturbance prior to applying a pin or a lock, of if you are not where they can push, when they push or attempt to push into your center or try to establish their own, rather than countering they tend to add force to their own angle of disturbance (i.e. they fall faster, easier).

d

[rob_liberti]

Sometimes I do ikkyo in freewaza and the uke pulls away. I usually bring that back into a natural nikkyo. Sometimes after an ikkyo, the uke pushes in to block a bit which turns into a natural sankyo.

I watched the video. It is a nice reversal. But, being able to reverse "that nikkyo" is nothing special in general. Anyone could block that after 6 months of training. If someone tried pushing into me, I can generally just accept it into my opposite hip joint, and throw them backwards 5-10 feet at will by straightening my intentions left and right and let my arms follow (like a big plus sign).

I would say in short, if uke pushes into you (or you can suker them into pushing into you) your nikkyo has a much better chance than if nage tries pushing into uke. Pushing down on uke's upper chest area is pretty much always a bad idea.

Rob

[senshincenter]

I also like the Rokkyo counter to this pushing-in.

[dalen7]

For me, locks should include throws,

The way I see it is that throws are harder to execute properly, consistently, against a variety of different body masses.

The pins seem easier and quite effective in themselves.
Ikkyo, ninkkyo, etc. - my favorite is sankyo...

Pain compliance - if that doesnt work, follow it up or start with some heavy atemi.

For non-violence one can walk away...and the situation wont arise.
Until then the above isnt that bad. :)

Peace

dAlen

the only one in the 'throw category' I like is kotegaishi.
(though thats like a pin of the wrist.) Though I like shihonage as well. But that has a nice twist of the arm in it, etc.

Least favorite is iriminage, but I see its merit if you can master the various techniques of it...quite effective.

[graham]

Thanks for the responses, folks. I'l a newbie, so it's difficult for me to properly assess a video.

But, being able to reverse "that nikkyo" is nothing special in general. Anyone could block that after 6 months of training.

Do you really think that? It seemed quite effective to me. After all, the guys involved all seem to have been training for more than 6 months.

[raul rodrigo]

If someone tried pushing into me, I can generally just accept it into my opposite hip joint, and throw them backwards 5-10 feet at will by straightening my intentions left and right and let my arms follow (like a big plus sign).

Rob, I'm having a little trouble visualizing "the straightening my intentions" you mention. Could you help me out?

best,

RAUL

[senshincenter]

The way I see it is that throws are harder to execute properly, consistently, against a variety of different body masses.
dAlen

I would say that locks are more subtle when it comes to getting one's energy to enter the center of uke - which is what is necessary for throws. Things like momentum/inertia, etc., allow for a lot more leeway in getting someone's balance. Either way, for me, one should have throws in one's locks and locks in one's throws. Here's a simple throw located in the middle of a nikkyo variation - it's near the end of the video:

http://www.senshincenter.com/media/nikyov.mov

Here's a simply throw located at the beginning of a nikyo variation:

http://www.senshincenter.com/media/aihanmi1.mov

[rob_liberti]

Do you really think that? It seemed quite effective to me. After all, the guys involved all seem to have been training for more than 6 months.

Yes, I really think that. I explained in a lot of detail what was wrong with it. Pushing in to uke is pretty much always a bad idea. If you are going to push down, you want that to only effect them from obi down, never from obi up.

Raul, I mean I can send my mental focus out both left and right (looking like samson pushing the pillars apart) making my body a "cross". I agree I could have explained that a lot more clearly. Sorry.

Rob

[Nick P.]

There is a school of thought that pinning or throwing should ideally only be attempted when uke is off balance; these videos seem to support that idea.

[raul rodrigo]

Raul, I mean I can send my mental focus out both left and right (looking like samson pushing the pillars apart) making my body a "cross". I agree I could have explained that a lot more clearly. Sorry.

Rob

Does this nikyo reversal have anything to do with the "cross," the upper dantien that people like Mike Sigman talk about?

Raul

[Nafis Zahir]

In the first video, the nikkyo is reversed because the nage had their elbow up.

[rob_liberti]

Nick I subscribe to that school of thought. Watching those videos, all I could think was "that would be as effective as tickling a cow".

As far as what Mike Signman talks about, I haven't read much from him on the upper cross in a few years but I can say this. I would guess that it is mostly the same thing. I have never disagreed/argued with him on mechanics or his explanations. (We argued over many other issues, but that is beside the point.)

I would assume that he is much farther along in terms of using his back muscles and all of his fascia connections and intentions than I am. In the past, I think he tended to under-estimate what was available in the aikido world. I think we have come to some sort of agreement that there is some good internal training in aikido but it tends to be a slower approach than it could potentially be.

As far as nikkyo. From just an aikido perspective,before I started training with Dan Harden, I could have blocked that nikkyo while jugling 2 balls with the other hand. Since I've been training with Dan Harden, I've learned how to absorb it better and how to use more of my body to blow through them with soft power. And I continue to lear a lot of the slower approach in a much faster way!

Rob

[Aiki1]

Rob is completely correct, and all this has nothing to do with anything subtle whatsoever.

Although seemingly impressive at times, the only reason this person’s technique works is simply because of how he trains his uke. This is devoid of any martial understanding and responsibility, let alone anything deeper. If you have the eye for it, you’ll see that, in spite of what he says, there is no understanding of position, -real- kuzushi, or core connection or movement. The words/concepts are there, but not the real knowledge or actual skill. I know this from first-hand experience.

[Keith Larman]

I'm in complete agreement with Larry et al on this one. There are way too many openings in the technique to begin with.

Pain compliance - if that doesnt work, follow it up or start with some heavy atemi.

Apart from a few obvious problems in the execution... One pet peeve of mine...

There is a difference between simple pain compliance and injuring someone. And you need to understand that difference. Pain compliance can work with a less than motivated, inexperienced or not really that angry attacker. But when the adrenaline is flowing pain compliance sometimes goes out the window. FWIW I ran to help a victim of a horrific car accident years ago. I got out of my car, ran over to him, and put my shirt on a really bad head injury the guy had until the paramedics got there. Once they got him stabilized another paramedic came over and said "we'd better take care of you now". I was confused. I told him I wasn't involved in the accident. He then sat me down and lifted up my feet. Oops. I wasn't wearing shoes and I had run across both broken glass and some sharp metal. My feet were just ripped up and there was a chunk of a beer bottle sticking out of the side of my left foot. At that moment it suddenly started to hurt. It hadn't hurt before. Or I didn't notice it. Or whatever. But at that point it was a sudden rush of pain.

So that said remember that pain doesn't motivate everyone. But there is a huge difference between "ow, that hurts" and "snap -- you just dislocated my shoulder!". When you're twisting a wrist/arm in a nikyo if you continue hard and power through you can damage to the joint itself. Many pins are just a hair away from a dislocation if they are continued. The continuation of many of these joint manipulation/stressing movements goes from pain to injury very quickly.

When we train cooperatively we tend to stop after the start of pain but before the start of injury. That's a good thing in that we want to be able to train some more. We'd run out of training partners really quickly if we didn't stop. But you need to realize that if you're using some of these things "for real" you may need to continue. They may resist. Or the pain may not register. They may push back, damn the torpedoes and all that. It would be nice if people would just give up automatically, but if they don't, are you willing to continue and tear apart their wrist? Or in a pin with them face down and you have their arm behind their back are you going to be willing to dislocate their shoulder if they try to fight out of it?

I've tried some of those things in the video over the years. But my view of it is trying to understand how you're going to deal with that situation. There are no shortage of brutal solutions to someone trying to reverse those techniques, but many in Aikido are conditioned not to go that way. But with anyone else, well, it is flat out stupid to try something like that. If you're going to resist the nikkyo and I've also gotten into that position without managing to have an advantage in balance and positioning (all issues in this case) my choices are 1) let you reverse it, 2) change technique, 3) put on more pressure to hopefully motivate you not to do that, or 4) put on more pressure then finish it and bust up your wrist if you're too stupid to realize just how vulnerable you are.

That said I can think of a few people I train with where a reversal like that might work with them. They're much too nice and some have bad habits in their applications. ;) There are others, however, where trying something like that is just not a good idea. I don't need to spend a month with a swollen wrist in therapy...

One great thing about aikido is that we can train in a "live" way. People try to hit, try to grab, try to move you around. We have a set of means of dealing with protecting ourselves. The drawback of that is that we tend to stop short of certain things (for good reason). I don't routinely try to break wrists. I don't dislocate shoulders. So while someone may find that they can reverse a technique, you need to ask yourself if that reversal is possibly only because they aren't willing to just rip apart your wrist. Or dislocate your shoulder. I had a wrestler friend who could wiggle out of a pin I had him in. He was really proud of himself. But the reality was that I wasn't willing to dislocate his shoulder to keep him from wiggling out. Yes, it starts as pain compliance -- the pain at first is the signpost that the joint is close to sustaining a considerable injury. No, I couldn't hold him down with leverage alone. But one small twist and shift and I would have ripped his arm out of the socket. He's my friend -- I'm not going to discloate his shoulder. But a bad guy who has just attacked me and my family? If he tries to get out of that pin, well, I'm going to make sure he doesn't get out. Or if he does he's not going to be able to use that arm again... Ever.

So ultimately, how useful is a reversal move like that? It'll only work among cooperative people who are trying very hard not to hurt each other. But if one really does want to hurt the other... Different story entirely.

[raul rodrigo]

Rob:

I've been able to counter some bad nikyos over the years, but usually with sankyo or nikyo itself. I've not seen or heard of a nikyo counter that can throw someone back ten feet. I can understand, I think, how to transfer uke's power to the opposite hip, but I'm drawing a blank after that. Please tell me more. Is this something William Gleason does?

RAUL

[MM]

Rob:

I've been able to counter some bad nikyos over the years, but usually with sankyo or nikyo itself. I've not seen or heard of a nikyo counter that can throw someone back ten feet. I can understand, I think, how to transfer uke's power to the opposite hip, but I'm drawing a blank after that. Please tell me more. Is this something William Gleason does?

RAUL

I played around just a bit with something like that. Probably isn't the same as what Rob is doing, though. I had my uke put me in a nikkyo. As he applied more force to the nikkyo, I used my suit to let that force go through the wrist, through the arm, through the shoulder, down across the back, into the opposite leg and then into the ground. Well, I got as far as the back but I couldn't get the force to go through the leg into the ground. (As I've been told before, my lower back is a mess. Still working on it.)

What I found while doing this was that the energy coming in was sort of spiraling through my body and getting stored. As more force was applied, more energy came through. So, in a "I wonder" moment, I released all the energy back into uke and it popped him back a couple steps. Was really neat. :)

Mark

[grondahl]

"This guy have been training for 18 years, he knows how to put nikkyo on......." So nikkyo is about; uke still in perfect balance, nage keeping his elbow up high, raising his shoulders and pushing?

[dalen7]

I would say that locks are more subtle when it comes to getting one's energy to enter the center of uke - which is what is necessary for throws. Things like momentum/inertia, etc., allow for a lot more leeway in getting someone's balance. Either way, for me, one should have throws in one's locks and locks in one's throws. Here's a simple throw located in the middle of a nikkyo variation - it's near the end of the video:

http://www.senshincenter.com/media/nikyov.mov

Here's a simply throw located at the beginning of a nikyo variation:

http://www.senshincenter.com/media/aihanmi1.mov

Actually I feel that is a fair assessment.
Your right, when I do shiho nage, part of the move is to lock the arm and twist it before doing the throw move.

Good point your brought up...

Peace

dAlen

[Zenogantner]

I think I share Nafis's view. At least I would like to see how the reversal works if nage has his elbow down.

[rob_liberti]

Also, if you want to meet up. I'll be happy to show you my nikkyo and demonstrate it with my elbow in just about any position you like. As long as you want to apply pressue to me, nothing else is going to matter much unless your aiki (anti aiki) skills are better than mine AND you get there first. I still think I may be able to soft power you down.

I've given this a bit more thought and I'd say that as long as one has superior intention ability your nikkyo should work. That typically means the person with the better structure. And that is why we say things like it's best to do kokyunage first, get uke's mind on their balance and off of resisting technique for a split second (of uke's focus betrayal - my term I just made up!) before applying the technique. As structure and intention improves relative to uke, you can get away with less kokyu nage and move into what I would consider kokyu rokyu.

Larry sorry for your difficulties. I had to let one go myself. (And if he comes back it won't mean he loves me! It will mean I must have had a lobotomy.)

Rob

[rob_liberti]

I played around just a bit with something like that. Probably isn't the same as what Rob is doing, though. I had my uke put me in a nikkyo. As he applied more force to the nikkyo, I used my suit to let that force go through the wrist, through the arm, through the shoulder, down across the back, into the opposite leg and then into the ground. Well, I got as far as the back but I couldn't get the force to go through the leg into the ground. (As I've been told before, my lower back is a mess. Still working on it.)

What I found while doing this was that the energy coming in was sort of spiraling through my body and getting stored. As more force was applied, more energy came through. So, in a "I wonder" moment, I released all the energy back into uke and it popped him back a couple steps. Was really neat. :)

Mark

Excellent. I missed this post first time around! This is pretty much what I was talking about. Here are my thoughts on a comparison:
- I don't worry about bringing it/recieving it further than my hip joint becuase I assume that my spine intentions will handle that as long as I recieve it to my hip.
- I felt it store up just like you are saying.
- I decided to hit the cross pose and followed that intention with my arms and whammo. How far they go back depends only on how good their stance was. If they have no structure at all, I may get 30 feet out of them although that would be assisted by them (sometimes you can get someone running backwards - tiedering on the edge of balance - trying to get their legs back under their upper body which is flying away).

Before I learned such things, I would say I have been hit my so much power from Gleason sensei - who does not use pain at all that I am aware of - that something like this would have just powered my stance. (At the time my stance would have been dumping too much of my energy in my front - which ISN'T the way Gleason sensei stands - I learned that bad habbit from others.)

As far as Gleason sensei goes, it has been my experience that nothing I'm doing with Dan Harden so far is too different from what he does in his aikido. The difference is that Dan applies such things to MMA, teaches that power so differently and directly, and the more I learn it the better I can see what Gleason sensei is doing. Both of those teachers do kata dori nikkyo in the exact same way for instance. Gleason sensei's iriminage is using the exact same thing as what Dan just showed me in a completely different context. It's so fun.

Rob

[CorkyQ]

The points to the video clips that I put up on youtube were this:

The first one "Easy ikkyo, painless nikyo" was a simple demonstration of how the nature of ukemi forms aiki, something that should be pretty obvious but is overlooked by people who think they have to muscle through either movement. Ikkyo is a natural technique when uke is extending his musculature during a grab or strike, but if the musculature is is compressing then ikkyo will not manifest without force. Clearly a person stronger than his partner or in a better position to use leverage and/or who does not care whether they injure their partner can force ikkyo, but force is in opposition to harmony by definition.

The same holds true for nikyo, but in this case nikyo is in harmony with the compression of musculature. If uke is extending and elongating his musculature, nikyo will only manifest if nage makes room for the extension and lowers the point of connection without conflicting with that outward stretch (not shown in the clip).

One can feel free to disagree with the idea that aikido is about harmony and not force. This clip is not for them.

The next clip "Is nikyo an attack?" is not meant to demonstrate martial technique, as what aikidoka is really going to be doing something that would result in nikyo being applied in a martial situation? Which aikido technique when done properly results in a nikyo being applied to nage?

The point to the clip was to demonstrate that in the application of nikyo in a traditional way when one focuses one's ki into the necessarily constricted flow, including the use of the hand that traps the fingers of the affected wrist, the intention turns the person applying the nikyo into uke which is why a reverse is possible. There has been no argument that a reverse is never possible, has there? This is meant only to demonstrate why nikyo is reversible. We do however believe that because of the nature of traditionally applied nikyo it is always reversible by the extension of ki in harmony with the application.

The speculation as to the effectiveness or the nikyo being applied in the video or the lack thereof is pointless. Some people said the "raised elbows" meant non-effective application, while Rob L. said he could effectively apply nikyo with his elbow in any position. For the demonstration we all showed our ability to affect our partner's center prior to changing our responses, but if anyone thinks we were were fooling ourselves or each other, you'll have to remain in doubt. We all left the dojo that night with the sore wrists to prove it, at least to ourselves, but I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Either you will understand what we were getting at or you won't. Many people do, many people don't. We tried it in a different dojo with aikidoka who are not necessarily of the same mindset as us and got similar results, but again, you would have to take our word on it. Other people have written me from all over the world saying it worked for them, but I can't verify if they are fooling themselves or really did what we did. Others have written saying we're insane, and maybe we are, but we know what we experienced.

Granted it is not easy to overcome the limbic system response to pain, but when one can do it, if the flow of ki from center follows the field of energy produced by uke's application, aiki mainifests effortlesslessly. Again, no one is suggesting this as a way to, after stupidly putting oneself in a position to be on the receiving end of nikyo in a real life situation, "push" through a joint lock. It is a demonstration of how that wrist lock actually creates ukemi, nothing more, nothing less.

[MM]

Excellent. I missed this post first time around! This is pretty much what I was talking about.


Good to know. :) We'll have to compare next time we're on the same mat.


Here are my thoughts on a comparison:
- I don't worry about bringing it/recieving it further than my hip joint becuase I assume that my spine intentions will handle that as long as I recieve it to my hip.
- I felt it store up just like you are saying.
- I decided to hit the cross pose and followed that intention with my arms and whammo. How far they go back depends only on how good their stance was. If they have no structure at all, I may get 30 feet out of them although that would be assisted by them (sometimes you can get someone running backwards - tiedering on the edge of balance - trying to get their legs back under their upper body which is flying away).


Hmmm ... will have to work on this some more.

I work mainly with two people who are also working on this internal stuff with me. :) So, if I get a step or two out of them, I'm happy. I haven't had a chance to try it on someone "normal". Besides, the two I work with outweigh me by 60-80 pounds. Erk.

Mark

[rob_liberti]

My gosh. I didn't want to get into bad blood politics so let's drop that aspect.

The elbow thing probably matters at a certain point. For example, I learned sankyo such that the most effective way was to grab the wrist below uke's wrist joint, and tuaght that for years. Dan Harden grabbed someone in sankajo and grabbed above the wrist. I wanted him to try it on me because in my minds eye I was going to drop my elbow and throw him! Ha! Well, lets just say things didn't go as planned!! Oh my gosh. he was baiting me to do that and had a more devastating "level" of that lock to put on me. Holy crap it was awesome. Anyway, point here is that until I met someone who was far beyond me in understanding that one I would have bet the farm that you had to do it my way (becuase that's what experience had taught me). I believe that this is the main value of aikiweb. People of different experiences get together and discuss from the various levels of understanding. Some people have special depth that we can take advantage of.

Corky, you and I are in agreement that if anyone pushes into me for nikkyo that they will become uke. I demonstrated this to an aikikai shihan not terribly long ago. I won't name names. But I can tell you he tried 3 times in a row. Each time, I took ukemi, but he and I both knew it was because I was allowing it. Each time he backed away doing that Japanese super polict backing away bowing thing. It was a face-saving let's pretend this never happened type of bow. I did that before I met Dan Harden.

I did the same resistance on Suganuma sensei and he planted me firmly on the floor. He doesn't push in. Neither to Gleason sensei and neither do any of my students.

There is a video put into discussion about nikkyo on this thread lets focus on that. Corky, if we can ever get together, I'll be happy to compare notes on nikkyo. We can even make a you tube video - or not. I don't care.

If you are 5th dan in some system and haven't faced anyone with enough resistance to prove this to you, GET OUT AND FIND PEOPLE - they will generally be more than willing to help.

Mark, trying this on people with structure puts you way ahead of me, but I'll try to soft power through you next time I see you! Win or lose that's it's all good.

Rob

[carlo pagal]

the ikkyo was ok for me. but for the other video,in my opinion the nikkyo was poorly executed. that is why he was able to counter it.

[rob_liberti]

Okay, in an attempt to derail any further politics, where do you all set your mental intention ust prior to putting on your nikkyo? I have 2 places. The one that sets the direction of my spine's power seems to focus straight at them up and down. The other one, goes out to side a bit between a point where there is no crashing into the uke and then ends up focused between their head and shoulder. I'm not crytal clear on when I change from out to the side a bit to between their head and shoulder. I tend to shift with the uke, but that may be wrong. Any "nikkyo" comments are welcome, I don't care if it comes from someone I kicked out of my own dojos.

Rob

[Aiki1]

To the people on this thread - sorry to have sparked a derailment of topic. My apologies.

[Bill Danosky]

I don't have a lot of trust in my nikkyo, so the only way I'd do it off the mat is with my elbow over uke's wrist. Then if it's not impressing him I can henka a sokumen irimi nage out of it.

I think I have a decent nikkyo, but I still surprise myself with a bad one now and then.

Yoshinkan solutions usually tend to be technique-based.

[Shany]

when u do nikkyo the way nikkyo is suppose to be, u can't "escape" it with either "ki" movements, just because you lock the arm very tight and the uke is just paralized with pain.

not to mention, u never do nikkyo from a static standing position..

[grondahl]

What do you mean with "u never do nikkyo from a static standing position"? Do you mean as in "u never do nikkyo as an applied technique from a static standing position" or "u never do nikkyo as kihon from a static standing position"?

when u do nikkyo the way nikkyo is suppose to be, u can't "escape" it with either "ki" movements, just because you lock the arm very tight and the uke is just paralized with pain.

not to mention, u never do nikkyo from a static standing position..

[raul rodrigo]

when u do nikkyo the way nikkyo is suppose to be, u can't "escape" it with either "ki" movements, just because you lock the arm very tight and the uke is just paralized with pain..

My understanding is that when you do nikyo right, uke feels little or no pain. His center is taken, his structure collapses, and he goes down. Cranking a nikyo just to immobilize the partner with pain, instead of a superior structure, seems to me both unnecessary and sadistic.

R

[eyrie]

My understanding is that when you do nikyo right, uke feels little or no pain. His center is taken, his structure collapses, and he goes down. Cranking a nikyo just to immobilize the partner with pain, instead of a superior structure, seems to me both unnecessary and sadistic.

R I don't think that is necessarily true as pain and pain tolerance is relative, and varies from person to person. The key point being that there are lines of force which afford little to no resistance that would allow one to affect another's structure, and vice versa. So, it doesn't matter who is on the "receiving" end, so long as one can exploit the lines of force better than the other person.

[raul rodrigo]

I don't think that is necessarily true as pain and pain tolerance is relative, and varies from person to person. The key point being that there are lines of force which afford little to no resistance that would allow one to affect another's structure, and vice versa. So, it doesn't matter who is on the "receiving" end, so long as one can exploit the lines of force better than the other person.

Agreed. I was reacting against the idea that pain was the objective of nikyo. Precisely how much pain one can cause another is relative (as in yonkyo), so it makes more sense to have as one's objective a better structure.

[Shany]

What do you mean with "u never do nikkyo from a static standing position"? Do you mean as in "u never do nikkyo as an applied technique from a static standing position" or "u never do nikkyo as kihon from a static standing position"?

What I meant was that (Like many other techniques) the technique you perform is from a dynamic movement of you and uke, therefore there will never be a static motion, hench a lot of what you see on movies will not work just because the element of movement.

Now, if you did escape an applied technique, therefore the one performing the technique has a flow in his technique.
that would let you make a kaeshi-waza on him easily.

Weather the point of the movies presented here are to learn the flow of KI (which is cool) it's a whole ball game when you're both in dynamic movement.

[Ron Tisdale]

when u do nikkyo the way nikkyo is suppose to be, u can't "escape" it with either "ki" movements...

I disagree...some people remain "grounded" even when moving, even when in "odd" positions where they look off balance, but they are not. You move them around as you please, strike, they block, you apply nikkajo, and they already have the ground supporting their arm and wrist, in a relaxed manner. The next thing you know, they pop you off and move in for a throw of their own. I've had it done to me, and at a low level, done it myself.

You can also adjust where your mind puts the focus, so that if they try to do nikkajo cutting in, you support it from your lower back, and if they do nikkajo cutting out toword you, you support it from the front of your center. Who ever is faster at switching focus usually wins that game.

Best,
Ron

[Bill Danosky]

some people remain "grounded" even when moving, even when in "odd" positions where they look off balance, but they are not. You move them around as you please, strike, they block, you apply nikkajo, and they already have the ground supporting their arm and wrist, in a relaxed manner. The next thing you know, they pop you off and move in for a throw of their own.

Yep. That's why I don't trust it. I prefer the hiji shime adaptation.

Do you MMA guys ever use wristlocks from the bottom position?

[Ron Tisdale]

Hijishime is beautiful. Works against the common man, aikidoka, judoka, BJJers, MMAers, whomever. Highest percentage waza for me when mixing it up. Many entrances to the waza. Many transitions to and from.

But a nice nikkajo well done is a thing of beauty too, though I tend to think of it mostly now as a barometer / training method for internal body work.

I'm not an MMAer, so I'll let them give you the answer on the other question, but I believe Royce or one of the Gracies used one against a sumotori. And won. From the bottom.

Best,
Ron (if it was me it would have been "squash like grape") :D

[Bill Danosky]

Me likee hiji shime. I used one against a wife beater a month ago who probably outweighed me by 75 pounds. Fight over in 4 seconds. The guy actually cried.

I never did find out what the deal was between him and his wife. But he was landing barefisted shots to her head when I came to the scene.

[CitoMaramba]

I'm not an MMAer, so I'll let them give you the answer on the other question, but I believe Royce or one of the Gracies used one against a sumotori. And won. From the bottom.

Best,
Ron (if it was me it would have been "squash like grape") :D

It might have been Royce Gracie against Akebono.. He seems to be applying a hijishime / omoplata type of lock..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0_svVIDORQ

[Enrique Antonio Reyes]

Me likee hiji shime. I used one against a wife beater a month ago who probably outweighed me by 75 pounds. Fight over in 4 seconds. The guy actually cried.

I never did find out what the deal was between him and his wife. But he was landing barefisted shots to her head when I came to the scene.

Way to go Bill. I'm glad that I know a person like you.

I was once rolling with a BJJer and while were both kneeling down he grabbed my lapel in a position which accommodates nikkyo and I immediately applied the technique. He didn't tap because he didn't know what was going on...but he let go and just grabbed his wrist...afterwards he asked me to teach him the technique...he choked me the next round...

Iking

[Kevin Leavitt]

I get wrist locks on some guys if they leave their arms out there. Usually they figure it out after the first couple of times and stop doing it. Never get straight nikkyo. Usually a wrist lock from a key lock position, arm bar, or omaplata.

Normally I use them as a distraction of a set up to move into a better position, rarely do they tap from them.

On the street, against an unskilled opponent, or with the threat of weapons they become more useable I think.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Also note that omaplata is basically ikkyo using your leg.

[DH]

I think the only thing they share is the reversal. Where they differ is Ikkyo is a shoulder reversal that is supposed to control the body line, Oma plata is a pin. Also Ikkyo has very slim probabilities of being applied in a fighting format. Oma plata can be.
I think the major difference between stand-up (in aikido) and rolling is the lack of use of the legs to base a lock position. Most stand up locks are ludicrous anyway, but aikido locks are among the more open I've seen. Probably due to too much cooperation breeding a lack of understanding that has become rampant and changed the art.
With aiki (internal power) there is an increasing chance of following a persons body movement and controlling it throughout while retaining the lock in a sense,controlling their bodies "through" the lock.While I know many locks and all manner of reversals, I still only demonstrate how to apply them, and how to make them excruciating, or more controlling to the skeletal structure, in conjunction with how easy it is to undo them, and how vulnerable someone applying them is..
Consistent with all things, this is another example where that overly lauded and so often misunderstood "ukemi model" has ruined many a mans understanding of budo.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Agree with you Dan

Yes, that was what I was trying to say concerning the principles, the structure in controlling the spine/bodyline is what is similar from the shoulder joint down to the spine.

Also agree with the fact that the reasons standup locks don't work in a BJJ format.

[Bill Danosky]

Do you guys want to put together a list of locks we think work (and maybe how)?

Example: Sanke jo to get out of a headlock.

[rob_liberti]

how to make them excruciating

HA! I thought maybe that you didn't realize how terrible you made them feel! I assumed you used to have to put way more into your locks before you had 3 or 4 significant power jumps.

As far as the current discussion goes, even in my own very limited wrestling experiences, if I get to be on top and lying across of someone (on their back) who has an outstretched arm, I may go for that lock where you say:
grab their right wrist with my right hand
wrap my left arm around their arm
and grab my own right wrist
(which I use for inside shihonage, and pinning sometimes)

I'm not saying someone more experienced couldn't take me apart, but I always go for stuff like that to find out.

Rob

[Kevin Leavitt]

Do you guys want to put together a list of locks we think work (and maybe how)?

Example: Sanke jo to get out of a headlock.

I think you focus on the wrong things when you focus on the "locks". That is the problem with the paradigm you see alot when you approach it as a technique of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo.

IMO, it is not the lock that is at issue, but the body control/spine control that matters. Joints allow you access to the core. It can assist you in kuzushi if you are not in control of the core and allow you to move in a manner to control the core more effectively...but it is not the lock itself that matters to me as it is only a means to an end.

This is assumes that your endstate is to submit or sustain control of an individual for a period of time, or to create distance to escape or to use another weapon system.

To me that endstate is that they can no longer physically affect the situation. that might be that they are unconscious or pinned, cuffed or what not.

Sure sankyo can assist you in getting out of the headlock, but it is not the sankyo in and of itself that works, it is the fact that you access their core and the have to readjust in order to avoid that works.

Does it sound like I am splitting hairs?

Maybe a little, but try a sankyo as a pain technique on me and you may suprise me a little and get me to loosen up a little, but probably not. Keep in mind that the guy that has the headlock has other options.

From a BJJ context it doesn't work, because a skilled opponent understands position and the headlock is a transition to something else, so they will protect quite easily against your sankyo.

However, grabbing the arm can give you space to keep from getting choked, it can provide you a transmitter to reach his core, and allow you to start repositioning you hips and balance points to counter his movements and then start to work on taking him off balance, down to the ground and then you establish a side control situation, to knee on belly, to standing if you are in a multiple opponent situation or trying to create distance again.

I guess my point is that sankyo in this situation is the means to the end and is not the focal point.

That is why you will here BJJ guys say joint locks don't work. As Dan states, guys that know what they are doing or are providing resistance are moving too proactively and/or too fast to allow you to gain or maintain control solely based on the joint.

It is not that the sankyo is not present in these situations, it is just that the timing is such that you don't see it as the focal point as you do in some peoples aikido, or you move past that onto other things because the level of compliance and speed dictates that.

Ikkyo, Nikkyo, and Sankyo, IMO, are important in aikido as a teaching mechanism to teach you how to gain control of the core so you can learn to use Aiki.

As stand alone techniques....They are "mid range" techniques that are extremely difficult to apply in an empty hand situation. I think they are great tools for amplifying and making aiki training more challenging allowing teachers to get across the importance of various principles.

Just like bokken and jo training do the same thing in aikido.

If you are worried about non-compliant opponents, there are other base things that need to be understood and focused on in the order of priority than ikkyo, nikkyo, or sankyo...IMO.

Again, this is why you hear guys that do BJJ and Aikido both say that these things are not all that important in BJJ or you rarely see them.

Trust me, I tried, and still do from time to time. Hey, if it is there...use it....it sure beats grappling!

[DH]

Kevin just made a point that I touched on earlier, but I don't think I stressed it enough.
I know some get mad but I see aikido as DR with a different "finish on it" so I discuss them as one. Not too surprisingly is it often seen that way in Japan as well- as a version of the same thing.

Aiki-age/aiki-sage, kokyu ho, various locks, projection throws and movements that look like waza, really aren't. They are training tools. You did them to learn to develop structure and internal power in your training. Now, dumbed-down aikido and Daito ryu made them "things." One-step, one-stop, kata 'thingie's" people now do as a waza. Something which they never were. In that sense the entire syllabary is retarded. I mean that in the sense of " failing to fully convey the reason the syllabus exists in the first place." It has failed to develop the internal skills (aiki) in the adepts through the practice of its waza, since it is being practiced as waza.

Sure enough, practiced as a collection of blending waza, many folks will be entirely happy and not know the difference as it fits their understanding and goals quite well.. So be it. But for those who actually wanted to know why things looked like they did, and what it was all meant to do- those folks are not going to get to where they need and want to go from doing things like locks and kokyu-ho and aiki-age as waza. It is why I continue to say , "Aikido...is full speed in the wrong direction." Meaning the art as practiced my many is not going to accomplish what it was intended TO accomplish.
It is also why many of Aikido's supposedly "martial waza" have never been taken too seriously by those who know how to fight.

Not stray too far of topic....
Fortunately some are currently engaged in taking back Aikido for the first time since its founding. They will imbue it with real power in execution in a new generation of men who will once again lend the art the real credibility it once had, and it once deserved. It is my hope that they do not turn their skills and knowledge into opportuniteis to host $eminar$, but keep it as a Budo and help the next group along.
Should be an interesting ten years.

[Bill Danosky]

It can assist you in kuzushi if you are not in control of the core and allow you to move in a manner to control the core more effectively...but it is not the lock itself that matters to me as it is only a means to an end.

This is assumes that your endstate is to submit or sustain control of an individual for a period of time

That sounds about right. When we use Sanke jo, it's preparatory to a throw or pin. In the case of escaping a headlock, it'd be to break the lock so you could pivot away and transition into another technique.