Poll: If you could be uke for yourself, would you be able to throw yourself?

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[AikiWeb System]

AikiWeb Poll for the week of January 20, 2002:

If you could be uke for yourself, would you be able to throw yourself?

Yes
No
I don't do aikido


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=96).

[Robyn Johnson]

Greetings!!!

When I read this poll my first response is "huh?????". What in the world does this mean??? :confused: It seems like plenty other people understand. Can someone please shed some light on this? How can you "throw yourself"?

Thank you very much!

Robyn:)

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Robyn Johnson

When I read this poll my first response is "huh?????". What in the world does this mean???

I understand it to mean that if you met your identical twin on the mat - same time training, same physical size and shape, same attitude and so forth - do you think you could throw them?

Cheers
Sarah

[Robyn Johnson]

Hello!

Thank you very much for telling me! I really appreciate it! Have a wonderful day!:D

Robyn:)

[cconstantine]

...I think there's a deeper question involved here.

The first interpretation (could you throw your identical clone) is important in measuring your concrete progress in Aikido. But, on a deeper level -- and I'm not sure the poll was meant to raise this question -- one's answer is critical of one's uke waza (the practice of being uke.)

While there's a time and place for a very heavy/immovable/imposing (choose your style's favoured adjective) uke waza, making nage smack against a "brick wall" doesn't help them grow. It's my opinion that a good uke can always be thrown by nage because uke blends with nage. Uke brings the aggresive energy to the confrontation. But a good uke is one who can do all of that, and at the same time FEEL nage and be appropriate to nage's techniques and movement.

A good uke ramsp up and up and up as nage grows (over months/ years as well as during one class or a few minutes.) I think its important to believe that uke and nage practice together. Aikido is blending. Please don't interpret my comments to mean I think uke should be wishy-washy, wimpy or fall over at the touch of a finger!

-Craig

[Erik]

Sometimes my imaginary uke is me.

He's, by far, the hardest uke to throw in my imaginary uke collection. I've never had to deal with him when he's grumpy. I can only imagine what that would be like. :eek:

He does take good breakfalls though. :cool:

[Thalib]

Before you could even defend yourself against an attacker, you should know yourself first.

I'm not the easiest uke to perform a technique on, and I'm not that much of a nage. I attack seriously with maintaining control, keeping one point, one mind and body, and try to extend the Ki. Since I do not attack blindly, that makes me quite a hard uke to practice a technique on.

At the same time, people that also understands this and becomes my uke, they too become a strong uke. It is not easy to perform techniques when they maintain this composure. This is the time when Aiki is really needed, because strength becomes nothing here, no matter how strong you are.

Would I be able to throw myself? Eventually, with proper aiki, yes. Because as my own uke, I know my own strength and weaknesses and I could use that to stabilize myself all the way through a technique. This would make it the hardest uke ever.

I basically have a twin (not in a literal manner but in a training kind of sense) in the dojo also.

[Robyn Johnson]

Greetings!!!

It sounds like this could be more complicated than I thought.:eek: Actually, I know that I could throw my "uke" but I don't think I could actually blend with myself. I do tend to be a "wishy-washy" uke and when I'm not doing that, I have a clutz attack and fall down on my own. hee hee :D Oh well, that's what practice is for. Have a wonderful day!

Robyn :)

[Sarah]

Originally posted by cconstantine
...I think there's a deeper question involved here.

The first interpretation (could you throw your identical clone) is important in measuring your concrete progress in Aikido. But, on a deeper level -- and I'm not sure the poll was meant to raise this question -- one's answer is critical of one's uke waza (the practice of being uke.)



And sometimes things are so subtle they're overlooked completely. You notice the third criterion I included up there - attitude.
ie would you-as-uke be interested in helping you-as-nage improve your aikido by providing an appropriate level of resistance :)
Or not :(


While there's a time and place for a very heavy/immovable/imposing (choose your style's favoured adjective) uke waza, making nage smack against a "brick wall" doesn't help them grow. It's my opinion that a good uke can always be thrown by nage because uke blends with nage.


Maybe make that smack repeatedly against a brick wall. I think the occasional smack is sometimes helpful.

I have occasionally been asked by sensei "why are you letting $nage get away with $sloppy_technique".
What I have taken from this is that its my responsibility as sempai/uke to give something that nage can learn something from.
And I have certainly learned stuff from "difficult" ukes, both senior and junior to me.



Uke brings the aggresive energy to the confrontation. But a good uke is one who can do all of that, and at the same time FEEL nage and be appropriate to nage's techniques and movement.

A good uke ramsp up and up and up as nage grows (over months/ years as well as during one class or a few minutes.)


I agree.


I think its important to believe that uke and nage practice together. Aikido is blending.


In your opinion, why does uke blend?


Please don't interpret my comments to mean I think uke should be wishy-washy, wimpy or fall over at the touch of a finger!

-Craig

I understand.
Its sometimes difficult to discuss aikido without sounding altogether too fluffy-bunny ;-)

Cheers
Sarah

[shadow]

I took this question to mean....do you think your nage-waza or your uke-waza is better? For me, both are pretty clumsy but I think I am better at throwing someone than I am at stopping someone.....and I know my own weak points as uke better than I do as nage so I think I could throw myself.
Make any sense????

[cconstantine]

Originally posted by Sarah

(cconstantine wrote: )
I think its important to believe that uke and nage practice together. Aikido is blending.



Sarah asks: In your opinion, why does uke blend?



My uke waza has two conscious purposes. (It may have other side effects, but I'm not intentionally aiming for those.) These are things which, if I find my conscious mind insists on interupting, I will then think about.

1. my training in aikido. Blending with energy met, wether positive or negative, with a relaxed, steadfast and open mind, body and spirit. In this aspect, my uke waza is the same as my nage waza. I try to practice this aspect at all times (and not just on the matt.)

2. helping others train at aikido. This means (when I'm uke) fostering an environment in which others can grow. To this end all of my items in '1.' are important, but I may have to blend with a junior nage. A senior student or an instructor will blend just fine without assistance. These aikidoka (senior to me -- not "senior" in rank, but senior in a particular moment) are best helped by my focusing and extending ki. A junior nage may be just on the verge of grasping or loosing one point, and if I "stay nearby" (physically, mentally, and in terms of blending) I create a spacial (physically) and mental environment where they can learn to blend and to keep one point.

I focus my uke waza depending on my nage. (I was going to say "adapt", but really, I think it's all the same uke waza.) With a senior or "peer" nage I can focus on "my aikido training". With a junior nage, I must also focus on how my "being" relates to their training.

aside: I'm ikkyu. Our instructors (mostly nidan) teach a good number of "no-kyu" students as well as low kyu belts. So I'm frequently practicing uke waza with juniors.

I think this (uke waza with junior nage) is a VERY important and beneficial aspect of my training. But it is (in my opinion) clearly a different flavor of uke waza compared to, say, uke waza with my sensei (a 4th dan).

[PeterR]

Well from a guy who does a wee bit of full resistance randori I know I am far more capable of shutting down a technique then I am in executing it.

Could I throw myself - yes. But most times no.
I vote no.

I have seen a lot of Aikido practiced where uke launches himself rather than actually being thrown. In these circumstances my vote would of course change.

[Erik]

Originally posted by PeterR
Well from a guy who does a wee bit of full resistance randori I know I am far more capable of shutting down a technique then I am in executing it.

Could I throw myself - yes. But most times no.
I vote no.


Jun needs a fourth option in his polls. Something that would represent maybe.

I don't do randori the same way you do but my experience is very much the same. I said yes, because I could throw myself at least some of the time.

Am I the only one around here with imaginary ukes?

[Robyn Johnson]

I have an imaginary friend! Does that count?:D :D :D

Robyn :)

[[Censored]]

I think its important to believe that uke and nage practice together.

This is inappropriate for Aikido forms. Freestyle, maybe.

Aikido is blending.

You can practice Aikido, or you can blend. Sadly you cannot do both.

Watch the video of the founder; there is no attempt at cooperation. Read his book; he creates the illusion of a "response" to an "attack".

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his." You don't practice Aikido with an attacker; you force that bastard to practice Aikido with you. ;)

I vote No on this poll.

[Johan Tibell]

No way! I'm too good to be thrown, even by myself. ;)

Uhm, yeah! :D

Regards,

Johan Tibell

[shihonage]

This poll is evidence that we're running out of polls.

[akiy]

Originally posted by shihonage
This poll is evidence that we're running out of polls.
Nope -- plenty more where they've come from. Besides, I think there's been some good discussion on the topic.

Some polls are focused on the results, while others are focused on the question itself...

-- Jun

[Sarah]

Originally posted by cconstantine


My uke waza has two conscious purposes. (It may have other side effects, but I'm not intentionally aiming for those.) These are things which, if I find my conscious mind insists on interupting, I will then think about.

1. my training in aikido. Blending with energy met, wether positive or negative, with a relaxed, steadfast and open mind, body and spirit. In this aspect, my uke waza is the same as my nage waza. I try to practice this aspect at all times (and not just on the matt.)

2. helping others train at aikido. This means (when I'm uke) fostering an environment in which others can grow. To this end all of my items in '1.' are important, but I may have to blend with a junior nage. A senior student or an instructor will blend just fine without assistance. These aikidoka (senior to me -- not "senior" in rank, but senior in a particular moment) are best helped by my focusing and extending ki. A junior nage may be just on the verge of grasping or loosing one point, and if I "stay nearby" (physically, mentally, and in terms of blending) I create a spacial (physically) and mental environment where they can learn to blend and to keep one point.


<There's more, but it's a bit long to repeat. You can go read it upthread.>

Um - having read and reread your reply I am still at a loss as to why uke blends.Your answer doesn't seem to address this at all. It just says that when you take ukemi you try to blend.

Come to think of it, I would also like to know what you mean by 'blending'. I thought I knew but I am becoming less and less sure that I do.

I would suggest a rather more prosaic reason for your consideration - maybe put it as point #0 for your list. Uke does what uke does in order to avoid injury.

Cheers
Sarah

[guest1234]

Originally posted by Erik


Jun needs a fourth option in his polls. Something that would represent maybe.

I don't do randori the same way you do but my experience is very much the same. I said yes, because I could throw myself at least some of the time.

Am I the only one around here with imaginary ukes?

I only have one, he's over six feet tall (not counting his ears) and we always practice to the music in my head...:eek:

[Erik]

Originally posted by ca
I only have one, he's over six feet tall (not counting his ears) and we always practice to the music in my head...:eek:

I've been in a class with music and I've been in a class with imaginary uke's. Come to think of it, both have even been around at the same time.

I worry about you and that ear thing though. That's really strange. They don't let you around any big red buttons do they?

[Thalib]

Originally posted by Erik
Am I the only one around here with imaginary ukes?

When I practice alone I practice with no uke, not even imaginary ones. Even when I practice with an uke, I try to imagine the uke away, the uke is there but not there.

Give this thought.

[guest1234]

Originally posted by Erik


I've been in a class with music and I've been in a class with imaginary uke's. Come to think of it, both have even been around at the same time.

I worry about you and that ear thing though. That's really strange. They don't let you around any big red buttons do they?

Hey, now that you mention it.... I wonder what happens when I push it;)

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Erik


I've been in a class with music and I've been in a class with imaginary uke's. Come to think of it, both have even been around at the same time.



Ah, but have you been in a class with imaginary nages?

Cheers
Sarah



[Erik]

Originally posted by Sarah
Ah, but have you been in a class with imaginary nages?

Cheers
Sarah


Yes!

[cconstantine]

Originally posted by Sarah
<There's more, but it's a bit long to repeat. You can go read it upthread.>

Um - having read and reread your reply I am still at a loss as to why uke blends.Your answer doesn't seem to address this at all. It just says that when you take ukemi you try to blend.

Come to think of it, I would also like to know what you mean by 'blending'. I thought I knew but I am becoming less and less sure that I do.


First: Follow your dojo and your sensei. :)
If my expressed thoughts really strike an idea in your mind, ask your sensei or instructors. I'm not in any way trying to preach. I'm really just trying to air my ideas to see what others think. (AND my apologies up; This is a MONSTER of a post.)

Chris Satori <upthread> also expressed a counter opinion. I was going to speak to his points, but didn't have enough time to spare at work that day. hehe... I'll try again now (to explain more clearly).

#0 (numbering at Sarah's suggestion)

Uke's primary concern, really, should be the personal safety of oneself and of nage. This is the distinction been practice (by definition) and "getting jumped in an alley." To this end, uke often does things no real attacker would do. Witness pulled atemis and puches, break falls, and basically ukemi in general. Obviously, high level nages need no "carefulness" from uke -- but it's still an important concept when training.

For non-newbie level ukes and nages (say, uke and nage are abouve 3rd kyu). #0 becomes pretty trivial. Uke is well practiced at taking ukemi and this becomes second nature. Uke can aproach closer and closer to the "fine line" between practice and a REAL attack.

Now I'm going to ignore all this stuff under #0 for the rest of this message. Personal safety is not the reason I keep saying "blend uke, blend." :)

#1 (my original #1 upthread)

My purpose, when I'm in the dojo is to train, and I train for self improvement. I'm specifically NOT there to stroke anyone's ego, show off, do neat techniques that look cool, etc. In the dojo I am priveleged to have the opportunity to grow and improve in many ways; Uke waza, Nage waza and acting in the traditional instruction role to name just three obvious ones. (In our dojo, the ikkyu students are sometimes asked to teach the classes with "less advanced or newbie students" when a regular instructor is unable to attend. This doesn't happen often and is normally arranged in advance of the class. I digress...) Nage waza and instruction are off topic. So here, I'm focusing on uke waza.

How do I grow through uke waza? It's quite simple (in principle.) By practicing the same things that I hold fundamental in all aspects of my aikido training. Extend ki, keep one point, and blend. ("blend" being the wishy washy topic of my discourse). Ki and one point aren't the topic at hand here. So, on with "blend". What do I mean by "blend" and why blend at all.

Aikido is not, and cannot be performed in a vacuum. Chris pointed out upthread that O'Sensei did not require nor care about cooperation from uke. But, saying "uke blend!" does not mean "uke, cooperate with nage so nage can throw you!" I agree with Chris (aikido works, cooperation from uke is irrelevant.) Witness O'Sensei and countless examples I'm sure we've all seen in our own dojo.

Ok, Craig, what exactly then, is "blend"?

Aikido implies, by definition (ai ki), that you should be one with the universe. You cannot ignore uke -- O'Sensei certainly didn't ignore uke.

"one with the universe". That's a little too ethereal for me to grasp. So I start by thinking of this in layers. On the most trivial ("least important", not "most simple to master") layer, certain techniques will operate a certain way in certain situations. So it's important to stand correctly, move correctly, do the technique correctly while still being able to adapt (stance, movement, technique) slightly or greatly as is appropriate for the one moment you are in. To me at this level it's: uke attacks, nage applies a technique, uke is dead/immobilized/disarmed/on-the-floor/whatever. Uke's cooperation is irrelevant. Nage wins. Period.

At the next deeper level, nage's ki and extension blend (blend in the plain english sense) with uke's. My(nage) ki and your(uke) ki are the same ki in a kitchen blender. I have learned that I can't keep one point, or extend ki unless I get beyond the previous "trivial" layer I discussed just above. (ie, do it without thinking)

Ok, so now I'm moving and applying techniques as I'm nage. I'm trying not to get in my own way of being one with the universe. And my ki is blending (plain english sense) with uke's. To me, these concepts are obvious because uke has ki wether uke knows aikido or not. Aikido uke's have lots more ki and they extend too, but it's still just ki.

Now let me flip over to being in the uke role. The first layer still holds. You can't throw a shomen uchi, tsuki, whatever you like unless you move, keep one point and extend. ..well, you can, but it's more powerful if I do those things, and I'm certainly not going to practice NOT extending ki and NOT keeping one point when I throw strikes. And, regardless of what I do, my uke ki blends(plain english) with nage wether I want to believe so or not.

(staying in uke's role here..)

Now, if I am extending ki as uke, how can I NOT be and do all the things that I do as nage when I extend ki. As uke I feel nage's ki, I know where nage is, I know where nage is leading my ki, where nage is leading my mind. To me, there is NO time when I am not "living aikido". So no suspention of aikido just because I'm an uke. (I hope that doesn't make me sound like an aikido nut. :)

Now two uke examples:

(call this "top" of a rainbow spectrum)
I uke for a 4th dan. I attack honest-to-goodness-no-bullshit. I try to keep one point, but try to take their head off. (blur) I'm on the floor. :) #0 of course saved my ass from injury without thought.

(and this "bottom")
Next, I'm uke for a college girl (imagine she's 10+ years and 130+ pounts my junior. Note: I'm a big burly sweaty 250 6' teddy bear) during her 20th class. I attack with focus, keeping one point of course. I slow the attack down but still bring the intention to the situation. She moves, she extends a little teeny tiny bit of ki, she takes my one point, I fall, finish.

Obviously, I've got the two extreme ends of a rainbow there. Blend (not the plain english "blend" here on out) means keeping my ki feelers out there from the bottom example to the top example. I'm blown away (blur, whack) at the top, I'm totally-aware at the bottom. In fact at the bottom, I can work with nage to set them up to extend ki, to set them up to find my one point, to feel my ki, etc.

"cooperation" are those annoying uke's who take a dive, or fall over at the touch of a finger.

To blend is to sense uke's ki. At the bottom, blending lets me intentionally stay just on the verge of losing one point to kindle that little tiny bit of nage's ki that's extending. At the high end, through blending I learn to sense nage's ki. (blur whack) no clue what happened. A few months later (blur whack) hey, I felt nage's ki. I understand what he did when HE blended with me. This encourages me to extend more ki, to notice when I've lost one point and to regain one point. Suddenly, my uke waza is a critical to my "whole life aikido training" as is my nage waza.

Blending gives uke power (not "strength".) Power to be sure #0 functions for safety. Power to present nage with a SURPRISE! brick wall. smack. Aha nage, wasn't extending... "cooperating" ukes can do none of those things.

Chris wrote
You can practice Aikido, or you can blend. Sadly you cannot do both.

It's my opinion that you cannot practice aikido UNLESS you blend at all times. I can't practice by saying "I'm doing technique foo and you're going down." It's different every time, I can't ignore uke. I have to be aware of uke, feel uke, be in one point.

'Blend' is much easier to say.

What I cannot tell is if Chris and I have the same idea but our language(that "blend" word) is different. It sounds to me that he's saying what I believe. O'Sensei simply "was". He didn't have to "do". Uke attacked, O'Sensei blended with uke's ki, led uke's ki, etc etc etc. (blur whack). (My language, definitely not Chris's.)

aside: this took an hour to write. I think I just saw an email that sarah just posted more, so this is going to appear after her post, even though I haven't read it...

-Craig

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Erik

WRT imaginary nages



Yes!


Fun isn't it! Silly, but fun.

Cheers
Sarah

Makes yonkyo less painful too ;)

[Erik]

Originally posted by Sarah
Fun isn't it! Silly, but fun.


Believe it or not, I'm actually being serious (mostly) which is probably the part that will scare you.

I'll start a thread on it one of these days.

[guest1234]

Me too... and as hard as irimi nage is to be 'nage' for, it is even more of a challenge to be uke for an imaginary nage...:D

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Erik


Believe it or not, I'm actually being serious (mostly) which is probably the part that will scare you.

I'll start a thread on it one of these days.

I think we already have ;) Yes I have done the imaginary nage thing in all seriousness, although not with yonkyo. It does give you an alternate perspective, paticularly on things like iriminage and kotegashi. Ikkyo is interesting, too.

I believe that things can be useful, fun and yes, a bit silly at the same time - its not uncommon for people to burst into laughter on the mat.

Cheers
Sarah

[Mares]

Originally posted by Sarah


I think we already have ;) Yes I have done the imaginary nage thing in all seriousness, although not with yonkyo. It does give you an alternate perspective, paticularly on things like iriminage and kotegashi. Ikkyo is interesting, too.

I believe that things can be useful, fun and yes, a bit silly at the same time - its not uncommon for people to burst into laughter on the mat.

Cheers
Sarah

Well we should enjoy our training. If you flick through O'Sensei's book Budo, you'll see he actually smiles whilst doing some techniques. However perhaps rolling on the floor clasping your stomach in fits of laughter is taking it a bit to far.:)

Regards

[Edward]

I guess none has yet reached the highest form of training, with both imaginary Nage and Uke, while sipping a cocktail on the beach ;)

[Erik]

Originally posted by Mares
Well we should enjoy our training. If you flick through O'Sensei's book Budo, you'll see he actually smiles whilst doing some techniques. However perhaps rolling on the floor clasping your stomach in fits of laughter is taking it a bit to far.:)

Regards

Really? It happens in the kid's classes all the time.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if one of the instructors at the Aikido Expo did an entire class of kid's games. 100 serious Aikido students laying on the ground laughing would be an awesome sight. Might shake the roots of the art, bring O'Sensei back from the grave and have Doshu on a plane to put a stop to it.

Kid's got this stuff figured out. It's the rest of us who take it too seriously.

[Erik]

Originally posted by Sarah
I think we already have ;) Yes I have done the imaginary nage thing in all seriousness, although not with yonkyo. It does give you an alternate perspective, paticularly on things like iriminage and kotegashi. Ikkyo is interesting, too.

I believe that things can be useful, fun and yes, a bit silly at the same time - its not uncommon for people to burst into laughter on the mat.


Actually, imaginary uke's have been a staple for some time where I hang out. Most of the time I'm iffy with it but one day I was teaching a class and did it. The before and after with the imaginary uke's was remarkable. Don't know why, and wouldn't consider one time to be hard evidence, but there was a very clear technical improvement that time.

If nothing else, it's an odd place to hang out, which makes it the type of thing to interest me.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Mares


Well we should enjoy our training. If you flick through O'Sensei's book Budo, you'll see he actually smiles whilst doing some techniques. However perhaps rolling on the floor clasping your stomach in fits of laughter is taking it a bit to far.:)



Rolling (check)
on the floor (well where else?)
clasping your stomach (not usually!)
in fits (only little ones)
of laughter (Yeah!).

I really need a tongue-in-cheek icon. :)

Cheers
Sarah

[akiy]

Originally posted by Sarah
I really need a tongue-in-cheek icon. :)
I guess all I have is a "stick out tongue" smilie, huh? I went and looked for a "tongue-in-cheek" smilie that I liked, but I couldn't find one.

However, I did go and add a few more smilies and icons...

As for the invisible uke thing, I may just have to try it out tomorrow night.

-- Jun

[Erik]

Originally posted by akiy
As for the invisible uke thing, I may just have to try it out tomorrow night.


Seriously, you've never done that?

:freaky:

[akiy]

Originally posted by Erik
Seriously, you've never done that?
I've done it myself (both with an "invisible" uke and nage (solo shihonage breakfalls, anyone?)), but never for a class I was leading...

-- Jun

[guest1234]

At one dojo, we had a version of this that involved stopping our movements when sensei said, and hold ourb position (of course, if falling, hitting the ground was permitted:confused: ) as a way to evaluate (self- and sensei-) your balance as uke...

Another variation was to do this with a partner...and he'd let us stand there for some time looking for any signs of waivering, pointing out a nage or uke (or both:eek: ) who lacking balance was leaning on a partner...

[[Censored]]

'Blend' is much easier to say...

Is it?

...this took an hour to write.

To convey your intended meaning, you spend an hour refuting or qualifying the commonly understood meanings of the word, quite possibly missing some very important points in the process.

If I was administering this forum, I would select one of these often misused and misunderstood words every month, and automatically filter it out of all new posts. (Blend, ego, and ki are on my short list.) I would like to believe this would lead to more interesting and productive dialogue.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by cconstantine


First: Follow your dojo and your sensei. :)
If my expressed thoughts really strike an idea in your mind, ask your sensei or instructors. I'm not in any way trying to preach. I'm really just trying to air my ideas to see what others think. (AND my apologies up; This is a MONSTER of a post.)



Is it ever a monster! Hey Craig, I looked at your website and one of the first things on it is how much you like to write. :p
So again, in the interests of bandwidth and people's patience I am going to snip large bits.

Please don't worry that I am going to take your ideas at face value and base all of my personal aiki-philosophy around them. I don't do that with my instructors let alone random people on the internet.


Chris Satori <upthread> also expressed a counter opinion. I was going to speak to his points, but didn't have enough time to spare at work that day. hehe... I'll try again now (to explain more clearly).


Frankly, I had similar concerns as Chris' - that your aiki was a bit fluffy-bunny for my taste. I did however want to find out a bit more before completely sticking my foot in it so I posed a couple of hopefully fairly unbiased and non-confrontational questions.

Now what I think is that although we would probably train in a similar manner we do not share the same English vocabulary WRT aikido - probably as a result of differing lineages and dojo cultures. I've been thinking and I cannot recall ever hearing the word "blend" in my home dojo. Join up, join with, kimasubi - these are all used for a similar set of concepts. Language guides thinking....

I'd be interested in hearing from other posters - do your teachers use the word "blend" frequently?
How about "one point" and "extend ki". Are there any other words you see used here that aren't part of your usual dojo vocabulary?


It's my opinion that you cannot practice aikido UNLESS you blend at all times. I can't practice by saying "I'm doing technique foo and you're going down." It's different every time, I can't ignore uke. I have to be aware of uke, feel uke, be in one point.

'Blend' is much easier to say.


When you share the same set of assumptions... Sometimes you have to come right out and say - pay attention to what your uke is and what she's doing.
The number of times I've felt the urge to tell my nage to stop trying to do their technique on some imaginary tall person (I'm 5'3").

It's also possible that for you, a self-described bear, it's true that without lots of give or blend in your practice you wouldn't get much useful training done at all.

I am also terribly uncomfortable with the amount of mysticising that goes on in the vicinity of aikido. Sure sometimes aikido seems to be just well, magical, but it's ordinary, everyday, repeatable stuff that anyone who is inclined to can practice and succeed at. I don't feel the need to wrap it up in appeals to "become one with the universe" or "feel the flow of ki".

In fact I sometimes think WRT martial arts,
<Cue corny kung-fu movie accent>,
"Ah so, "ki", ancient oriental sports psychology..."
<offered with sincere apologies to anyone offended by the racist stereotype>

Getting back to point zero -

When you're working with a semi-skilled and strong nage - you want to give enough energy to challenge but not enough to frustrate. This is where I feel giving, blending, going with, whatever term you like to use, for self-preservation is really at its most obvious.

I feel the spirit behind this interaction carries through into the two scenarios you've described, although as they are extremes
it's not clear how. Your college girl is unlikely to break your wrist if her kotegaishi comes on unexpectedly hard and fast through overmuscled frustration, neither are you really likely to seriously annoy your yondan by giving them one too many strong attacks they can't handle. (If in the unlikely event they can't handle your attacks safely they should at least have the self control not to get violently po'd.)

So I think that in the beginning and in the end - we give good ukemi to enable the practice of aikido without being injured. It's quite simple really, nonmystical and even a little selfish. ;)


aside: this took an hour to write. I think I just saw an email that sarah just posted more, so this is going to appear after her post, even though I haven't read it...

-Craig

:D Is trivia, I wouldnt worry about it. The fun to be had with imaginary nages, who are even less likely to break your wrist.

Cheers
Sarah

[Chiun]

:circle: If I were in perfect balance, I could not throw myself.

[cconstantine]

Craig wrote:
'Blend' is much easier to say...

Is it?


Well, it's definitely easier for me to say "blend" than it is for me to say everything else I've said all week here. But *clearly* I'm the odd ball attaching these meanings to this particular word.

These are the hazards of training at only one dojo. Which is one of the reasons why I like to come here and swim in the bigger Aikido thoughts pond.


To convey your intended meaning, you spend an hour refuting or qualifying the commonly understood meanings of the word, quite possibly missing some very important points in the process.


Clearly then, everyone (at least you, but I presume many others :) ) use blend to mean something else -- if not completely different.

Do you mean simply the normal english meaning, or something else? (If you care to ellaborate, that'd be great. If not, is the information ellaborated somewhere else that you can just point me to?)

Also, aside from your clearly taking issue with my use of the specific word *blend*. Do you have issues with the concepts and ideas that I mean when I say blend?



If I was administering this forum, I would select one of these often misused and misunderstood words every month, and automatically filter it out of all new posts. (Blend, ego, and ki are on my short list.) I would like to believe this would lead to more interesting and productive dialogue.

...I don't think literal filtering would work, but a section on the site (maybe there already is one? Jun?) where the nuances of those key terms is at least nailed down.
I might discover their "definitions" are different from those to which I'm accustomed, but then I could correct my vocabulary (before barging into the forums) and use the common/correct vocabulary.

[cconstantine]

Please don't worry that I am going to take your ideas at face value and base all of my personal aiki-philosophy around them. I don't do that with my instructors let alone random people on the internet.


...yeah, I don't know why I wrote that. (I should know aikidoka would never do such a silly thing.) When I was done writing that monster post, I thought the post sounded like I was trying to jump up on a soap box and preach to little kids. I tossed that bit trying to make sure everyone understood that I feel more like the little new kid at class blurting out my ideas to see what everyone else thinks.


... we do not share the same English vocabulary WRT aikido - probably as a result of differing lineages and dojo cultures. I've been thinking and I cannot recall ever hearing the word "blend" in my home dojo. Join up, join with, kimasubi - these are all used for a similar set of concepts. Language guides thinking....


Bingo! This is exactly what I'm trying to sort out. I'm clearly not using the same vocabulary. It seems plausible that I'm expousing on the same ideas though.

'kimasubi', what's that? Jun! Word number two for that new section "simple aikido terms that have significant meaning"... :)


I'd be interested in hearing from other posters - do your teachers use the word "blend" frequently?
How about "one point" and "extend ki". Are there any other words you see used here that aren't part of your usual dojo vocabulary?


Our staple diet of vocabulary words would start with (most frequently served first :) ): keep one-point, extend ki, and weight underside. (I'm ducking here, because I haven't seen that vocabulary ANYWHERE else.... How about "relaxed and heavy" instead of 'weight underside'?) My version of "blend" wouldn't make my top three list...

[Sarah]

Originally posted by cconstantine


Well, it's definitely easier for me to say "blend" than it is for me to say everything else I've said all week here. But *clearly* I'm the odd ball attaching these meanings to this particular word.

snip

Clearly then, everyone (at least you, but I presume many others :) ) use blend to mean something else -- if not completely different.

Do you mean simply the normal english meaning, or something else? (If you care to ellaborate, that'd be great. If not, is the information ellaborated somewhere else that you can just point me to?)

The Pocket Oxford dictionary lists 4 meanings which may all have relevance to discussions about aikido. Which is the normal one?

Also, aside from your clearly taking issue with my use of the specific word *blend*. Do you have issues with the concepts and ideas that I mean when I say blend?

Now I dunno about Chris, but it's references to `deeper meanings' that actually sets my `kook alarm' off. Blend can start to mean any thing to them, as you seem to be aware as you put a bit of a disclaimer in one of earlier posts.

Paticulary when someone in the dim distant past said something along the lines of `Aikido is blending', sounding as though he was sharing wisdom from on high and expecting the rest of us to chant 'amen'. While, I might add, implying that my initial comment was somehow shallower than his convoluted ramble.

(OK, so I was a little peeved about that. I felt that you missed possibly the most important word in the post in your headlong rush to correct a mistake that wasn't actually in there! And there weren't even that many words >:| )

I now believe that the kook alarm registered a false positive in your case ;)

The problem is that if we have different meanings for the word blend, without the hours of explanation it is futile to even try to discuss concepts. We have to share a vocabulary first!



...I don't think literal filtering would work, but a section on the site (maybe there already is one? Jun?) where the nuances of those key terms is at least nailed down.


I don't think that these terms get 'nailed down'. They just get argued about. ;) Often people end up agreeing to differ. :D


I might discover their "definitions" are different from those to which I'm accustomed, but then I could correct my vocabulary (before barging into the forums) and use the common/correct vocabulary.

There is already an interesting language section on this site -look to the top left of the page. I paticularly liked Jun's bit about common instances of ai and ki in everyday Japanese.
Personally, I think your vocabulary is not so much incorrect, as not so strictly defined as you'd perhaps like it to be.
'frinstance `blend'. (Are you as sick of that word as I am yet?)
WRT aikido, you say 'what happens in a food mixer'. I say 'what a watercolour artist may do with colours'. Already we've got a slight difference in connotation. Gotta love English!

FWIW, I didn't even vote in the poll. There wasn't a box for "maybe".

Cheers
Sarah

[guest1234]

I don't think 'Aikido is blend' is any more of a 'kook' (is that a word?) statement than 'Aikido is atemi'. What is entertaining is people's reactions to those statements, usually because either the speaker or the listener inserts a percentage (most often 95% :D )...

Instead of rushing into battle to defend the word and percentage so near and dear to one's own heart, why not take the entertaining route? I am fairly confident I can identify the sytle preference and/or personality traits of those who go for the 'percent' statements involving 'Aikido' and 'is' with usually one or two other words. And let it be. We all know there are different ways of seeing and doing, no need to label those do not who follow one's personal preferences as 'kooks'.

[guest1234]

PS to Cconstantine,

I would define "MUSUBI" as a harmonious connection, or unity. "KIMASUBI", as someone else states above, well, it's new to me...perhaps similar to musubi, or perhaps what Tanto called the Lone Ranger... :D

[Sarah]

Originally posted by ca
PS to Cconstantine,

I would define "MUSUBI" as a harmonious connection, or unity. "KIMASUBI", as someone else states above, well, it's new to me...perhaps similar to musubi, or perhaps what Tanto called the Lone Ranger... :D

It could well be kimusubi. Or ki musubi. My spelling is pretty bad in English and non existant in Japanese. The translation/explanation my instructor gives is 'to tie a knot in ki'.

Cheers
Sarah

[Sarah]

Originally posted by ca
I don't think 'Aikido is blend' is any more of a 'kook' (is that a word?) statement than 'Aikido is atemi'. What is entertaining is people's reactions to those statements, usually because either the speaker or the listener inserts a percentage (most often 95% :D )...

Then there was the person who tried out the free class at my dojo, and then proceeded to tell a few of us about this sort of delayed action vulcan death grip, by which you can shake someone's hand and a week later they fall down dead. (As far as I know noone teaches this at my dojo.)
I consider that definitely kooky.

Instead of rushing into battle to defend the word and percentage so near and dear to one's own heart, why not take the entertaining route? I am fairly confident I can identify the sytle preference and/or personality traits of those who go for the 'percent' statements involving 'Aikido' and 'is' with usually one or two other words. And let it be. We all know there are different ways of seeing and doing, no need to label those do not who follow one's personal preferences as 'kooks'.

Yeah I know - I've even trained with Shodokan folks - and enjoyed it ;).

For the record - I thought that Craig might be a bit on the kooky side - I am glad to find that I was wrong about this.

I don't think I have ever made a statement of the form 'Aikido is [X%] Y', but you're welcome to take a stab at style preference etc. I'll let you know if you get it right. :)

Cheers
Sarah

[guest1234]

Sarah, you are right, you did not say X percent, you were one of those who heard X percent, or you would not have thought there was something wrong with thinking blending is a part of Aikido, any more than atemi is a part. Just how much a part is what gets some people in a frame of mind that calls those with a different frame 'kooky'. Or do you truely think that any degree of blending is out of the question in Aikido?

Telling Craig he was out of line to use blend, then use Kimasubi (sic)? THAT certainly cleared things up. And by the way, what exactly is 'tie a knot in ki?' Is it in any way meant to be similar to tie together with ki, or to to join ki?

Believing a Vulcan death grip can kill is not (probably) reasonable. But there are many styles of Aikido besides yours, and they are just as reasonable as yours. The fact that YOU don't enjoy them (if you have actually tried them) does not make them 'fluffy-bunny' or 'kooky'. They are simply not what appeals to you--which is probably good for all concerned.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by ca
Sarah, you are right, you did not say X percent, you were one of those who heard X percent, or you would not have thought there was something wrong with thinking blending is a part of Aikido, any more than atemi is a part.

Right, now I'm getting annoyed. I do not think any such thing and I did not say any such thing. Could you please back up your assertions with quotes from my posts.

Just how much a part is what gets some people in a frame of mind that calls those with a different frame 'kooky'. Or do you truely think that any degree of blending is out of the question in Aikido?

No. What have I written that makes you think I do?

Telling Craig he was out of line to use blend, then use Kimasubi (sic)? THAT certainly cleared things up. And by the way, what exactly is 'tie a knot in ki?' Is it in any way meant to be similar to tie together with ki, or to to join ki?

The point I was trying to make was that different groups use different words for the same thing, and the same words for different things. This leads to misunderstadings.
I have never told Craig that he was out of line.

Believing a Vulcan death grip can kill is not (probably) reasonable. But there are many styles of Aikido besides yours, and they are just as reasonable as yours. The fact that YOU don't enjoy them (if you have actually tried them) does not make them 'fluffy-bunny' or 'kooky'. They are simply not what appeals to you--which is probably good for all concerned.

You are reading stuff that simply isn't there.

Sarah

[guest1234]

Originally posted by Sarah


Frankly, I had similar concerns as Chris' - that your aiki was a bit fluffy-bunny for my taste.


I am also terribly uncomfortable with the amount of mysticising that goes on in the vicinity of aikido. Sure sometimes aikido seems to be just well, magical, but it's ordinary, everyday, repeatable stuff that anyone who is inclined to can practice and succeed at. I don't feel the need to wrap it up in appeals to "become one with the universe" or "feel the flow of ki".

In fact I sometimes think WRT martial arts,
<Cue corny kung-fu movie accent>,
"Ah so, "ki", ancient oriental sports psychology..."
<offered with sincere apologies to anyone offended by the racist stereotype>

Cheers
Sarah

[guest1234]

Originally posted by Sarah


Now I dunno about Chris, but it's references to `deeper meanings' that actually sets my `kook alarm' off. Blend can start to mean any thing to them, as you seem to be aware as you put a bit of a disclaimer in one of earlier posts.

Paticulary when someone in the dim distant past said something along the lines of `Aikido is blending', sounding as though he was sharing wisdom from on high and expecting the rest of us to chant 'amen'. While, I might add, implying that my initial comment was somehow shallower than his convoluted ramble.


I now believe that the kook alarm registered a false positive in your case ;)



Cheers
Sarah

he will be sooo relieved. But what about the rest of the 'kooks'? And is the 'amen' only required for when an instructor intones 'Aikido is atemi'?

[Sarah]

Colleen

You did exactly what I was afraid you'd do - quote me out of context. I'm disappointed.


Frankly, I had similar concerns as Chris' - that your aiki was a bit fluffy-bunny for my taste.

Note past tense - had concerns, no longer have concerns.

Note also - for my taste - this is a personal opinion, and I am fully aware that I am not the final arbiter of what is or is not aikido. I never claimed to be.


I am also terribly uncomfortable with the amount of mysticising that goes on in the vicinity of aikido. Sure sometimes aikido seems to be just well, magical, but it's ordinary, everyday, repeatable stuff that anyone who is inclined to can practice and succeed at. I don't feel the need to wrap it up in appeals to "become one with the universe" or "feel the flow of ki".

In fact I sometimes think WRT martial arts,
<Cue corny kung-fu movie accent>,
"Ah so, "ki", ancient oriental sports psychology..."
<offered with sincere apologies to anyone offended by the racist stereotype>


These are my opinions and are clearly labled as such. This is the way I think about aikido. I am also not asking anyone to share them. Apparently they are not valid and I should therefore be silenced.

Where did I tell Craig that he was out of line?

Sarah.

[guest1234]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sarah
[B]
I've been thinking and I cannot recall ever hearing the word "blend" in my home dojo. Join up, join with, kimasubi - these are all used for a similar set of concepts. Language guides thinking....

I'd be interested in hearing from other posters - do your teachers use the word "blend" frequently?
How about "one point" and "extend ki". Are there any other words you see used here that aren't part of your usual dojo vocabulary?

[B]

this was as you agreed with Chris that 'blend' was a word to be avoided...great substitution with 'kimasubi'

I'm too tired to snip the last quote, where Craig offers to correct his vocabularly, since you and Chris have taken him so severely to task for using 'blend', no one has answered his question on what 'kimasubi' (sic) means, and you tell him HE is too concerned about pinpointing the definition, and reassure him HE is not as kooky as you had originally suspected.:eek: It is not too far back in the posts...

my goal is not to annoy you, although it seems I have achieved that. It is to get folks to avoid calling those who come from a different point of view 'kooky', 'fluffy-bunny', (and not yours) 'weak' 'weird' 'wrong'. It is all Aikido.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by ca


he will be sooo relieved. But what about the rest of the 'kooks'? And is the 'amen' only required for when an instructor intones 'Aikido is atemi'?

No I'm just as suspicious when that happens. I trust people when they say `I can't explain what aikido is - you have to try it and see.'

Sarah

[shihonage]

Originally posted by ca

Believing a Vulcan death grip can kill is not (probably) reasonable.

Heretic !

[guest1234]

I'm not saying you cannot have opinions, nor that you must be silenced. I am not even saying you can't use mean-spirited words when describing others...but I am saying that I wish you would avoid them. How is this done?

For instance : 'at my dojo, we do not often/ever use terms like 'extend ki' or 'blend' etc... we prefer to emphasize breakdown angles/atemi/etc...' at this point, if you are interested, you can add 'could you tell me more about your views of ki/musubi/etc'. If you are absolutely certain you have nothing to gain from hearing a different view, you can be silent vs. adding words like 'kooky'. If still wanting to emphasize your own style, add why breakdown angles/atemi/etc work so effectively for you (avoiding 'this is the only right way' or 'all other ways are ineffective'---I can 100% guarentee you they are not).

Try to point out the positive in what you say, and try not to use any label that would offend you if it were put in front of your style or yourself (if you like 'fluffy bunny and kooky', consider getting help). Your posts could have stood on their own without EVER using those two words, or the reference to Eastern philosophy with Kung Fu music background.

[Sarah]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ca
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sarah
[B]
I've been thinking and I cannot recall ever hearing the word "blend" in my home dojo. Join up, join with, kimasubi - these are all used for a similar set of concepts. Language guides thinking....

I'd be interested in hearing from other posters - do your teachers use the word "blend" frequently?
How about "one point" and "extend ki". Are there any other words you see used here that aren't part of your usual dojo vocabulary?
[B]

this was as you agreed with Chris that 'blend' was a word to be avoided...great substitution with 'kimasubi'


I didn't suggest that it be subistituted. I just said that we don't use it. We use these other words which other people don't necessarily understand. Neither is better or worse. Just different. Which I believe is also your point. We don't use the terms `one point' or `extend ki' either. Which means that I may not have the same picture in my mind when other people do use them.


I'm too tired to snip the last quote, where Craig offers to correct his vocabularly, since you and Chris have taken him so severely to task for using 'blend', no one has answered his question on what 'kimasubi' (sic) means, and you tell him HE is too concerned about pinpointing the definition, and reassure him HE is not as kooky as you had originally suspected.:eek: It is not too far back in the posts...


No, I am saying that words are tricky little monsters - and that often definitions cannot be pinpointed. Craig offered to change, and I tried to explain why I thought that was unnecessary and possibly even counterproductive.


my goal is not to annoy you, although it seems I have achieved that. It is to get folks to avoid calling those who come from a different point of view 'kooky', 'fluffy-bunny', (and not yours) 'weak' 'weird' 'wrong'. It is all Aikido.

Point taken. I was undecided as to wether to mention that bit at all. I decided to in the interests of honesty, I mean that is really what I was thinking.
But if that is what upset you so much, why didn't you say so first off instead of attacking on all of those other, unrelated fronts.

Sarah

[guest1234]

Originally posted by shihonage


Heretic !

Hey, I SAID probably :D

Actually, there are few things I am absolutely sure of, and that is not one of them:eek:

I have a really funny video clip involving a kick to the head that would have been perfect after Erik's bit on another thread about the subject, but couldn't attach it... you seem to do that a lot, how is it done?:confused:

[shihonage]

Originally posted by ca


I have a really funny video clip involving a kick to the head that would have been perfect after Erik's bit on another thread about the subject, but couldn't attach it... you seem to do that a lot, how is it done?:confused:

For some reason I no longer see that option.
But even when it existed, I think it was only limited to attaching IMAGES (not videoclips) off your hard drive.

[guest1234]

Thanks! It took me over a year to learn how to use the italics and smilies, and now that we've got the new faces, I can no longer use the italics again... so I REALLY felt old when I couldn't put that video clip in, either. OTOH, someday when a small thermonuclear blast has destroyed all our computers, I will know how to use a slide rule and will take over the world....

[shihonage]

Originally posted by ca
Someday when a small thermonuclear blast has destroyed all our computers, I will know how to use a slide rule and will take over the world....

Yeah kids nowadays... they can't multiply 40 by 4 without using a calculator or a cash register.

[Erik]

Originally posted by ca
I have a really funny video clip involving a kick to the head that would have been perfect after Erik's bit on another thread about the subject, but couldn't attach it... you seem to do that a lot, how is it done?

If you really wanted to you could just post a link to wherever the file is. I can only imagine what it might be.

[cconstantine]

Holy cow, there are so many posts, I wouldn't know where to start replying to individual items. So, just a few things that stuck in my mind after reading...

I don't feel as if *anyone* attacked me, or was aggresive in this forum. If I wasn't interested in hearing the veiws of others, (however they are formed or phrased,) I wouldn't be here.

On language and vocabulary: I mentioned this somewhere upthread too, the trained-only-in-one-dojo syndrome gives me a biased vocabulary. (How could it not?) If I say "blend" and I get 23 replies all with questions and ideas and arguments, then I know I've found a portion of my vocabulary, or more importantly, an area of my understanding of Aiki that I need to investigate more thoroughly.

Sometimes I'm accused (in my dojo) of being fluffy-bunny. I spent several years "un-learning" being a brute-force bear, now it's time to "train up" atemi, extension, and power. When I talk about aikido, I sound like my current level of training and understand -- ie, fluffy-bunny at times.

Vulcan death grip: (told you I was jumping around.) I doubt on the hand; But there is a little nerve plexus on your neck (near where you would do a choke with your shin on a pinned apponent) that is a feedback mechanism to your heart -- a blood pressure sort of regulator so your heart gets feedback about blood pressure to the head. Crush that little nexus and ones heart can stop. (Physiology, not mystism -- something to keep in mind when pinning uke in practice.) So, I presume there are other such stupidly-vulnerable, key spots on the body.

[Erik]

Originally posted by cconstantine
Vulcan death grip: (told you I was jumping around.) I doubt on the hand; But there is a little nerve plexus on your neck (near where you would do a choke with your shin on a pinned apponent) that is a feedback mechanism to your heart -- a blood pressure sort of regulator so your heart gets feedback about blood pressure to the head. Crush that little nexus and ones heart can stop. (Physiology, not mystism -- something to keep in mind when pinning uke in practice.) So, I presume there are other such stupidly-vulnerable, key spots on the body.

Heard the following on the Dean Edell although I almost hate to post it.

Apparently it is possible to strike the chest at just the right time so that the heart will stop beating. Happens, very rarely, to fighters. Apparently there is a nerve or something there can be triggered if hit at the right time. Of course, it has nothing to do with it being the evening, solar tropical depressions or the time zone one resides in but it can apparently be done if you time the pulse 'exactly' right. It's something akin to hitting the lottery in a not good way and it's basic physiology. I've been trying to find a transcript on the show. If I do, I'll post it.

[[Censored]]

Well, it's definitely easier for me to say "blend" than it is for me to say everything else I've said all week here. But *clearly* I'm the odd ball attaching these meanings to this particular word.

If (heaven forbid) we were on a karate forum, I would not object to your use of the word. Any common definition would probably be close enough to further discussion.

On this aikido forum, everyone has their own subtle understanding of the word, built upon their own limited experience and understanding. "Blend" does not stimulate discussion here; it stifles discussion. We all take turns arguing with ourselves, pretending it is a genuine exchange.

Also, aside from your clearly taking issue with my use of the specific word *blend*. Do you have issues with the concepts and ideas that I mean when I say blend?

Yes. Uke should not practice aikido when doing so will hinder their partner's progress. IOW, uke should never practice aikido.

...I don't think literal filtering would work...

Necessity is the mother of invention, they say.

...but a section on the site (maybe there already is one? Jun?) where the nuances of those key terms is at least nailed down.
I might discover their "definitions" are different from those to which I'm accustomed, but then I could correct my vocabulary (before barging into the forums) and use the common/correct vocabulary.

Without a shared set of reference points, "correct vocabulary" is a fantasy. Don't waste your energy.

[shihonage]

I'm going to get myself some perfectly blended Jamba Juice.

Get it, BLENDED ?

I am the KING OF HILARITY !

[Mike Collins]

I could never throw myself because I am too much in tune with all of my openings. I'd spend all my time reversing myself over and over until I simply became exhausted and fell, but which one of me would fall first? And how long could this go on? About 2 minutes. Neither one of me has any stamina.

[Mary Eastland]

Yes.

[Shadowfax]

Yes.

Wow you really took time to think about that one. Eleven years later you came up with an answer. :D

Interesting topic to think on though. I shall go and meditate on it and get back to you in 2024. :p

[Mary Eastland]

LOL..I thought it was an interesting idea. I will be waiting with baited breath to see what you think. ;)

[Krystal Locke]

Of course I can throw myself. I am, after all, my own worst enemy. I am my own nemesis.

Parthenogenesis. Everybody's happy when the dead come home.

Couldn't help it.