Is this the "norm"?

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[PM]

I have been training at the same dojo for four years. I find it disturbing that there are so many "clicks" in the dojo. I notice it amongst the yudansha, more than any other group. There is a certain sense of elitism, no matter how hard you train. I tend to spend a fair bit of time observing the different groups, it reminds me of high school. You had your jocks, stoners, and your band weenies ( their term) not mine. The dojo seems to be broken into the yudansha, the newbies and the folks, like myself who just want to train.

There are Holiday events each year, but I have yet to attend one, mostly because I don't feel all that welcome. The sad thing is, our Sensei, is one of the kindest people I have ever met. But I don't think he is aware of the fact that there are such boundries amongst all his students. It's seems that if you don't stay for all the classes and train six days a week, you must not be committed to your art. But, I am a Daddy and being at the dojo three times a week is a lot of time away from my family. It just seems as though there should be a better connection between all of the students, at all levels.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Pete

[Edward]

Hello Pete!

I'm afraid it's the norm. I have seen this in every dojo I've visited, whether Aikido or other MA. It's just human.

The Yudansha have practiced for years together and must have some kind of friendship bond .

However, being part of the click will certainly entail after class beer and other activities which could even take more of the time dedicated to your family.

So every thing has its good and not-so-good side, I guess....

Cheers,
Edward

[ranZ]

Hi Pete,

I've had that same situation in my former dojo. I guess it's a kind of a "normal" situation in a big institution, school or anything with over 20 people in it. (hey, it happened at the Aikikai too).

I would try not to be in any of the clique. I mean, it doesn't mean that if someone's in a clique he/she can't be friends with those not in it, vice versa. You've trained for 4 years, u gotta have some friends, no?

However i find the atmospher much more friendly in my current dojo (+- 15 people), almost like a family. :)

[akiy]

Interestingly enough, I was just talking to someone in the dressing room about this sort of thing. I mentioned to him that I hadn't seen him in a while to which he replied, "I'm trying to come here at least twice a week. Well, at least once a week. If that." He said that he, too, was a father of a young child, starting a new relationship, and holding down three(!) jobs. When he said something along the lines of, "I guess I'm not as dedicated as people who come here more often," I replied to him, "Actually, the fact that you're here at all shows you're pretty darned dedicated."

Everyone has priorities in their lives and I think it's fair, of course, for people to have such. I'm always amazed at people who juggle so many things in their daily lives to come to the dojo at all. I guess I'm lucky in my life to be able to go to the dojo pretty much whenever I want...

As far as cliques and such go, I've seen them at pretty much every dojo I've been. Most places also do have an "experienced folks" clique as well, probably due to the nature of their sharing the same mat space, seeing each other outside of the dojo, and travelling together to seminars for years on end. Many of these folks also have time constraints and can only train in certain classes -- often, it's in their "peer" group of people who are at their level (ie some of the advanced people may not make it to the beginners classes). Heck, even amongst the yudansha, in a fairly big dojo (~100 people, say), there'll be cliques ranging from people who share the same kind of job, people who share the same kind of training methods and/or philosophies, people who are friends outside of the dojo, and so on.

I'm not too sure what the instructor can do on his own. I personally know he's hosted open get-togethers at his house (such as the Holiday party you mentioend), probably in the hopes that people will get together outside of the dojo.

Do you or any others have any good ideas to "mix things up" at the dojo?

-- Jun

[PM]

First, thanks for spelling clique, correctly. I just knew I was spelling that one wrong. I've discussed this, with my wife and some of the folks in the dojo. I have yet to come up with the right solution. I really don't think people mean to exclude anyone, but I think there is a certain type of intimidation, in a kohai or a very new beginner, just walking up and shooting the breeze with some of the yudansha. Some are very friendly and some are not, may just be their personalities. I try to think back to when I started, having trained and fought in other arts, I wasn't intimidated, but wanted to remain humble in this new environment. Thankfully, some very kind yudansha showed me around and made me very comfortable. I guess it's hard to be a family in such a large setting, so many people coming and going. And the fact is a lot of these people have trained together for a long time. I would love to go to the summer camp in the Rockies, but I have a mortgage to pay and mouths to feed, so I miss out on some of the chances to get closer to the people in the dojo.

I am thankful for the friends I have made, I have met some unique and wonderful people.

Thanks again
Pete

[guest1234]

I think this is a good reminder to everyone on how difficult it is to be a new person (although the term may be starting to wear off on you;) )...and that it is only the right thing to do to reach out to the new folks and welcome them.

Some may know about your situation of a young family to care for, and be uncertain how to include you in after hours coffee/beer/etc... have you thought about maybe hosting a potluck, kids invited of course...

I've been the 'new guy' in several dojos now, and have become known for announcing as class ends that I'm going for coffee (or lunch, etc) and who wants to join me...perhaps not so easy with your family situation, though. Perhaps put your head together with some other young parent(s) in the dojo, and plan an outing (zoo, museum, local point of interest) for any families and singles interested...post it on the board, announce it in advance... I think things like that are also good in that it gives the significant others a chance to meet other dojo widows and comiserate.

[guest1234]

PS

Perhaps it is just a holdover from my high school years, but I've never been much interested in the kind of people that form cliques...they tend to be shallow, self adsorbed, and ultimately boring. You are better without them. Luckily, I haven't come across cliques in most of the dojos I've attended...and the few that I have, well, the were indeed shallow, etc....I certainly have better things to do with my time;)

[JJF]

Hi!
This is really interesting. I first began Aikido some years ago, and I loved it from day one. However I never really fell in with the crowd. I felt like an outsider and talked to very few of the other who practiced there. I took a break from the dojo for a while (3½ years) - partially because of this feeling of being 'not in' - then joined again about 18 months ago. Now I really enjoy talking to most of the people, I have lots of - well friends is a strong word - let's call it friendsships in progress. I have been wondering if something has happend in the dojo while I was away, or perhaps I've just changed. I don't know really, and I seldom care. I just love going there when ever I can.

By the way: Thank's Jun - your comment about dedication really warmed my heart. I too am a farther (as I have happily yelled out in this forum) - twice blessed even so. I have a job, plays in a band, work on my masterdegree (a large paper printing at this very moment!) and then of course I practice Aikido. I have often pondered the issue of dedication to your art vs. dedication to the other important parts of life, and I feel I can live with myself the way things are now.

However when I one day finish my masters I will spend the time I get on my hands on more Aikido - Promise!! ;)

[Mares]

Originally posted by PM
I have been training at the same dojo for four years. I find it disturbing that there are so many "clicks" in the dojo. I notice it amongst the yudansha, more than any other group. There is a certain sense of elitism, no matter how hard you train. I tend to spend a fair bit of time observing the different groups, it reminds me of high school. You had your jocks, stoners, and your band weenies ( their term) not mine. The dojo seems to be broken into the yudansha, the newbies and the folks, like myself who just want to train.

There are Holiday events each year, but I have yet to attend one, mostly because I don't feel all that welcome. The sad thing is, our Sensei, is one of the kindest people I have ever met. But I don't think he is aware of the fact that there are such boundries amongst all his students. It's seems that if you don't stay for all the classes and train six days a week, you must not be committed to your art. But, I am a Daddy and being at the dojo three times a week is a lot of time away from my family. It just seems as though there should be a better connection between all of the students, at all levels.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Pete

Is this the norm?

no it isn't.

Regards,

[Erik]

Originally posted by PM
I have been training at the same dojo for four years. I find it disturbing that there are so many "clicks" in the dojo. I notice it amongst the yudansha, more than any other group. There is a certain sense of elitism, no matter how hard you train. I tend to spend a fair bit of time observing the different groups, it reminds me of high school. You had your jocks, stoners, and your band weenies ( their term) not mine. The dojo seems to be broken into the yudansha, the newbies and the folks, like myself who just want to train.

One dojo I used to visit had a fair amount of this. It got to where I didn't enjoy going there. Interestingly, about the only thing that would change it was being used as uke by sensei. The sensei liked to bash me around and that usually interested someone to at least the level of "he's not a total waste of time". Interestingly, it has changed over the years and I find much less of it now.

I also think that there is a certain amount of face time needed. If you are only there once a week then it's going to be tough.

The sad thing is, our Sensei, is one of the kindest people I have ever met.

I don't know your sensei personally, but from a distance I would agree with that.

It's seems that if you don't stay for all the classes and train six days a week, you must not be committed to your art.

Your sensei once said something at a seminar which I still have not decided exactly how I feel about. I pretty much disagree with it, but I've left the door open. He once commented after some dan tests that everyone should always train like they are getting ready for a test. He feels people lose their edge after a test and he's probably right on that part. My disagreement with his statement stemmed from the fact that in my experience you not only increase injury but you'll blow a lot of students out the door. My experience with test time, particularly shodan and first kyu is that they take time out of your life and you see more injuries. It's a sacrifice and I'm not sure that most people can make that sacrifice full-time. I do think most people could go much deeper in their training than they do, but I don't know about every class as never ending test preparation.

On the other hand, I'm betting there are a lot of folks around those parts which do "the good Aikido" as well. Maybe that's the price of it.

But, I am a Daddy and being at the dojo three times a week is a lot of time away from my family. It just seems as though there should be a better connection between all of the students, at all levels.

I once got into a lot of trouble over this with one of my teachers. This person sent out an email suggesting that the beginning class wasn't getting enough support from the senior people. Fair enough, but the class was at 6:00pm and if students stayed for the advanced class they likely wouldn't get home until after 9:00 pm. In the Bay Area many folk's day consists of:

Up at 5:00 to 6:00 am.
6:00 to 7:00 in traffic or on Bart
7:00 to 4:00 or 5:00 at work assuming no OT
5:00 to 6:00 in traffic or on Bart
6:00 to 9:00 at the dojo
9:00 to 10:00 drive home, shower, eat
10:00 Goodnight honey!

Repeat!

[guest1234]

Could it be that the sensei who made the comment about training like it is always before a test mean not so much putting in lots of overtime, but watching every move in class with close attention, and sharp focus on your technique? It really shouldn't require any more time or physical exertion (although both seem to get turned up by a lot of folks before they test), but rather each day in class is treated like you expect a test just around the corner... in other words, continuous test preparation vs cramming for the test.

[Erik]

Originally posted by ca
Could it be that the sensei who made the comment about training like it is always before a test mean not so much putting in lots of overtime, but watching every move in class with close attention, and sharp focus on your technique? It really shouldn't require any more time or physical exertion (although both seem to get turned up by a lot of folks before they test), but rather each day in class is treated like you expect a test just around the corner... in other words, continuous test preparation vs cramming for the test.

That would be my preferred interpretation, but no, I don't think that's exactly what he meant. I could be wrong though.

By the way, please don't think I'm flaming this individual. I have nothing but high regard for the man. I just don't agree with what I think he meant in this case. It's also my belief that what he said could be easily misinterpreted and maybe that's exactly what I'm doing.

[Edward]

Actually I agree 100% with the statement of the Shihan is question. Since I started up Aikido, I have trained 6 days a week and rarely missed a class. As Colleen said, I consider it as my daily recreation and I enjoy it every time.

Unfortunately, not every one is as lucky as I am to get enough free time and no family (and a very understanding girl friend) to be able to do so.

But every thing comes at a price. Mine is that my social life became almost restricted to my Aikido classmates. So for those who cannot do it they might be luckier than they think, and this does not mean that they are lesser Aikidoka than others.

Cheers,
Edward

[Erik]

Edward, I've been there, done that and mostly agree with your post--for a change.

Like I said, I'm not sure I disagree with the sensei, exactly, and if I were there I would probably be one of those as much as I can types. I've been told that I would fit right in at that dojo. So I understand where he's coming from.

But if you've been around for 4 years and still feel out of sorts, I dunno. I always worry about those people on the fringe. They make a very real commitment and it's easy to neglect them because they are not there everyday.

I think I would challenge Pete to take this up with his sensei who has always seemed to me as very approachable.

[PM]

First Erik, I am from the Bay Area, I grew up in Mtn. View. So, I know exactly how things are and you are so right about it all. Jun and I spoke a little about this last night, I don't think there is much to do, except be the best example and remember to assert myself with the yudansha. As well as making a point to get to know the new folks and make them feel welcome. I train on average, two to three days a week, but don't stay for Sensei's late class, so I know there are some folks, that I don't get to train with. Someone once said," there is a fine line between keeping your family happy and getting enough aikido." Now, would I like to train a few more days a week, yes, but making sure I keep balance in my life, on all fronts, is actually why I began aikido in the first place. As I reflect on all of this, I realize I do have some great friends at the dojo. And there is some truth to the fact that if you are uke for the sensei, some of the more experienced folks will take notice. One of my most memorable experiences, was after my 3rd Kyu test. People came up and shook my hand and hugged me, folks that on most occasions, wouldn't even say hello. I think it would be to my benefit to train at more than just the first class, break up my routine a little. But, thank you again to all who responded.

Pete

[jimvance]

Here might be one other explanation.
Anyone practicing more than a couple of years has seen a lot of people come and go. Most of the time they are mudansha, mostly new people. Sometimes they are yudansha, who leave for personal reasons or move away, etc. For yudansha (or any sempai) who have put time and energy into new students, or have participated with peers, when these people leave, it can be very disheartening. And whether or not it is appropriate, this "safety in the known", where higher ranked individuals (relatively speaking) do not reach out and take every person who walks into the dojo with open arms, may stem from just protecting their own energy.
This is a very intimate process, requiring intense focus and real commitment. I spent most of my nineteenth year lifting weights, using food supplements and vitamins to gain extra lean body mass, watched my diet very strigently. At the end of the year I got mononucleosis and lost close to twenty pounds. During the three weeks I spent in bed, I lost all that lean body mass. My younger brother laughed at me one day saying that all the time and money I had spent had gotten flushed down the toilet. He was right and it hurt. I haven't lifted weights since.
Don't always think you are being singled out. I used to worry about this a lot. I came to the decision I was going to train my best and not come to the dojo for social interaction, that it was selfishly motivated. When I made this commitment to myself and kept learning what my teachers and sempai were helping me with, people started wanting to train with me. We can only control what we do, if we allow others control of our "center", we are vulnerable to their intent. This can be really wonderful or really destructive. Hopefully it all works to drive you along the Way.

Jim Vance

[Chuck Clark]

This is an interesting discussion. I thought that I'd just throw in my bit...

I have trained in several dojo for long periods in my life and in many dojo around the world for shorter periods and then quite a few for visits of several practices. In that 48 years of training I have seen many different social dynamics at work in these dojo. In short, humans are human ... some stuff is good and some is bad. Most of it starts out with good intent and due to our shortcomings in communication, etc. it turns out less than we would like. C'est la vie.

I, personally believe that we should be able to train with anyone that gives a good attack and takes care of their partner. We don't have to like each other or share similar beliefs about politics, religion, etc. I do think we have to "respect" each other, though.

People tend to gravitate to those that are similar in nature and action. This often leads to not getting the kind of stimulation that promotes growth. It benefits us all to widen our viewpoint and learn from our differences instead of just taking comfort in our similarities. It's hard, but its still good for us.

Now, after this preachy post, will we stop gathering in groups that others don't feel comfortable in ... nope. Learn,make the best of it, and get on with practice. Good practice often helps heal many of our human wounds.

Best regards,

[PeterR]

I must have been at my dojo in Osaka for six months before the Japanese started opening up. For a gregarious person like myself I took it personally even though I knew this happened in this group orientated culture. If there is a foreigner joining or visiting I made it a point of welcoming.

However, from the other end of the stick, imagine if you will every year, often at the same time, a whole new group of beginners. How many stay around after three months, six months, one year. You make an effort and poof they are gone.

In Osaka it seemed that with every belt colour change there was a real attitude shift. White to blue (after three months) you become a club member, before that you are just some shmoe off the street. Blue to Green (about one year) intend to stick around worth putting the extra time and effort in, etc.

[Edward]

Originally posted by Chuck Clark

I, personally believe that we should be able to train with anyone that gives a good attack and takes care of their partner.

I myself have the opposite problem, unfortunately. I try my possible to give good attacks and have an intense training with my partner, taking good Ukemi for him. As a consequence, the only people who would willingly come to practice with me are the Yudansha, the rest would avoid me like pest. Most of the members seem to come for leisure, and avoid physical exertion.

This could be problematic as sometimes there are no Yudansha training and I have to beg for a partner.

As a result, I have been accepted quite quickly in the Yudansha "clique" even though I am still a YonKyu, we go very often for beer with Sensei after class. But this didn't help my relations with colored belts members at all. True many white belts do come to ask me for advice and try to practice with me but not the others. Even when I invite them to practice, they will just pretend to have already chosen a partner, which I find very impolite.

Cheers,
Edward

[Abasan]

I myself have the opposite problem, unfortunately. I try my possible to give good attacks and have an intense training with my partner, taking good Ukemi for him. As a consequence, the only people who would willingly come to practice with me are the Yudansha, the rest would avoid me like pest. Most of the members seem to come for leisure, and avoid physical exertion.

Not to put down your enthusiasm in training, but as Ikeda Sensei once said (paraphrased) you must perform your tecniques like approaching the weather. You don't dress in khakis and t-shirt in the middle of winter. Not all ukes and nages are like you... although you may like the ideal world where everyone trains with full commitment, its the real world that you live in. Thus give your respect to them by blending with their training level and needs. To do otherwise, is just to impose your will on others/ or what you feel is the One True Way.

Besides, no one likes the blue eyed boy... ;)

Just my thots...

[Anne]

At our dojo, we have exactly the situation Jim described. We're a university dojo and part of the university sports center. This means, the our state is basically paying the fee and training for students is almost free (about 7$/6 months :D yes, I didn't forget a zero). So every semester, up to 40 new faces attend the first classes. After two months, there are about 20 left, then comes the exam weeks, people have to study, etc. So, next semester, two or three people come to the advanced classes.... Thats when they start to join the after training pizza tour, come to parties and are asked to help organizing seminars... I must admit that it might feel a bit difficult to join in because the core group consists of five happy couples (We all met on the mat...) who do lots of other stuff together, too. But most certainly we welcome everybody.

[Hanna B]

Originally posted by Erik
One dojo I used to visit had a fair amount of this. It got to where I didn't enjoy going there. Interestingly, about the only thing that would change it was being used as uke by sensei. The sensei liked to bash me around and that usually interested someone to at least the level of "he's not a total waste of time". Interestingly, it has changed over the years and I find much less of it now.


Two possibilities of what actually changed:

1) the dojo attitude

2) your position in the group. Higher status often involves not recognising this kind of clique behaviour...


Regards,
Hanna

[thomson]

This thread caught my eye cuz' I am the new guy in the dojo. Been in aikido for about a month or two. Part of the reason why I decided to join was the friendliness of everyone (yudansha included) and lack of any definable cliques. Everyday of training is a joy, because of the helpful and friendly atmosphere.

Mike

[Anne]

Congratulations, my brother left a dojo, because nobody was talking to the newbies after class. He said that this was the only reason, he really enjoyed Aikido. Unfortunately, it's the only dojo at his place, so he stopped training for now.

[Edward]

Originally posted by Anne
Congratulations, my brother left a dojo, because nobody was talking to the newbies after class. He said that this was the only reason, he really enjoyed Aikido. Unfortunately, it's the only dojo at his place, so he stopped training for now.

That's very unfortunate. However, some people miss the point. The purpose of going to the dojo is training not socializing. And believe me, the less the friendships at the dojo, the better and quicker the progress and evolution. I'm not saying that I shouldn't talk to anyone, but if no one is talking to me, that's excellent. I can thus concentrate on my training.

Probably many of you disagree with me, but I tend to take my training as a very serious matter.

Cheers,
Edward

[Mares]

Originally posted by Edward

And believe me, the less the friendships at the dojo, the better and quicker the progress and evolution.




I would disagree with that. Perhaps at a lower kyu level that may hold true because you can do you own thing and get things straight in your own head at your own pace.

But at a dan rank level I would disagree quiet strongly with that. I find having friends at around your level helps to push you along at a quicker pace. It's much easier to thrash out problems in your technique with friends than with strangers. If there is a problem with your technique friends are more willing to point it out than 'non-friends' are, especially if they are kohai.