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Nafis Zahir
05-15-2008, 03:56 AM
So I'm over at the MT forum in the Aikido section, and I was trying to explain the variation of kaitenage that I do. As I'm cutting the arm down, I extend and take the head. Then, I glide back and at the same time, I extend the arm across uke's back while 'scooping' uke's head toward me. This results in the uke's head being such that they are almost looking at the ceiling. It also gives them the feeling that they are really locked up tight. When done this way in ki no nagare, it sometimes throws the person or causes them to 'flip' before I actually apply the throw. I'm looking for a video to post that shows it being done this way. Does anyone here do it that way, and if not, what variation of kaitenage do you do?

dalen7
05-15-2008, 04:48 AM
Im assuming that Kaiten nage is similar to Uchikaiten nage (we do the latter)

Some of the things that you said sounds familiar - other parts not.
We do Uchikaiten nage for Ai Hanmi Katate Tori and Gyaku Hanmi Katate Tori in 6th and 5th kyu.

Peace

dAlen

- oh, looking forward to seeing a video clip of what your talking about.

dalen7
05-15-2008, 04:55 AM
Does anyone here do it that way, and if not, what variation of kaitenage do you do?

Again, assuming that UchiKaiten Nage is the same as Kaitenage - then here is what we do:

For Ai Hanmi Katate Tori: (right wrist held by Uke)
- step to Ukes left and turn in
- cut ukes grip on your wrist by rolling your wrist down while taking free hand and locking his attack wrist.
- uke will feel pain in wrist in drop your hand..
- you will extend ukes hand/arm away from his body
- use atemi strike to ukes face
- step under ukes arm, still holding his arm
- once under his arm and behind uke...turn around
- cut ukes arm down to ground
- uke will bend down, head toward ground
- take ukes arm up behind his back
- then step infront of uke, while pushing his arm and 'flip' him.

For Gyaku Hanmi:
The same, well its more like Tenchinage (at least I think its the name)

- Uke has your right hand
- put uke off balance by extending right hand out and down
- do all the steps above starting with stepping under ukes arm.

With this you are dependent the whole time, basically, that uke hangs on to you.

In the exercise it is easy for uke to loose his grip on your wrist and the technique is over... technically, its my understanding the way we practice the technique that this whole movement is based on a determined uke who wont let go...but not sure how well that would work if he was that strong (ie., moving his arm to go under him, or even get him off balance)

Point is, it would seem you would want to grab uke as soon as you can to gain control...but at that point it would seem the rest of the technique is wasted...or 'fluff'. (Yes it would work, I suppose...but its going the extra mile to torture uke I suppose...if you get what I mean.)

Peace

dAlen

Peter Goldsbury
05-15-2008, 08:42 AM
So I'm over at the MT forum in the Aikido section, and I was trying to explain the variation of kaitenage that I do. As I'm cutting the arm down, I extend and take the head. Then, I glide back and at the same time, I extend the arm across uke's back while 'scooping' uke's head toward me. This results in the uke's head being such that they are almost looking at the ceiling. It also gives them the feeling that they are really locked up tight. When done this way in ki no nagare, it sometimes throws the person or causes them to 'flip' before I actually apply the throw. I'm looking for a video to post that shows it being done this way. Does anyone here do it that way, and if not, what variation of kaitenage do you do?

Hello Nafis,

I think you might find a video of K Chiba doing it in this way. The issue for me is where you are in relation to uke when you cut the arm down and take uke's head. You are open to counters here, as you are when you 'scoop' uke's head towards you. Further, in my opinion, with the omote form there is no distinction between ki no nagare and other forms.

Best wishes,

Dazzler
05-15-2008, 10:54 AM
Hi

This seems very much like the way we do it. With less able ukes we would allow them to roll, and with more able ukes then something more akin to a flip is what arrives.

As Prof. Goldsbury has said...you are vulnerable to a takedown and you increase this risk if you bring uke onto you rather than ensuring you cut down to break posture/take balance first.

Equally of course, knee strikes, kicks etc are available in your defence as they would be to someone working against double leg take down.

So for some, as Dalen points out , everything else could be seen as fluff.

After all - a good initial irimi / atemi could negate the requirement for anything else perhaps.

Some may take the view for instance, that the real benefit of uchi kaiten nage is not as a technique, but as an excercise to practice the body movement for uchi kaiten sankyo.

This feels much more martial and removes the concern of uke letting go.

But again its only a technique...an opportunity to find something.

So others may argue that the real benefit of Uchi Kaiten sankyo is that it allows you to practice centre, distance, breathing, timing control.

But again ...these aren't the whole.

Others may argue that breathing , centreing, timing and distance aren't the best thing to practice.

For them irimi / atemi is where its at.

And maybe others may argue that there is more - a fusion of energies is possible.

and others may argue that their practice is in the mind. as soon as uke thinks to attack its too late.

Whats my point? Everyone looks at things with eyes that match their level. Almost to the point of seeing what they want to see.

As your Aikido progresses - if you are open - you move beyond physical differences and look for different things.

And that is the great thing about Aikido...just when you think you know something, someone comes along and re-writes everything for you.

Only thing guaranteed in aikido?

Others may argue....;)

Regards

D

Nafis Zahir
05-15-2008, 02:16 PM
Well, I do cut the uke down, but as his arm is going up, the other hand is placed on his head, and his arm and head are both extended at the same time by using the hips and a glide back motion. Uke is locked up pretty tight, and having had this done to me, I feel no way that I am able to counter. I would be interested in hearing about possible counters from this technique, especially from Mr. Goldsbury.

senshincenter
05-15-2008, 04:50 PM
Here's some kaiten nage variations we do:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/kaitennage.html