Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance [Archive]

dalen7

05-14-2008, 01:56 AM

Kote Gaeshi was one of my favorite moves as it was one of the moves that seemed most practical and actually effective.

I had the whole deal down on how to twist/tork the wrist to make the uke go down.

Now I am about to test for my 6th & 5th kyu (make up for a test back in Dec. I didnt take) and Im practicing with other guys who will take their 5th kyu test...

What is interesting is in the past 2 sessions, 2 of the dudes have actively tried to resist kote gaeshi. Technically speaking Sensei would not have this, but it seems they think they are being 'cute' in showing they can resist the method - (to which I could pop them in the nose and show that their new found 'technique' doenst mean much in a real fight) The point is that we are supposed to be at the point at getting familar and fluid with the technique.

And if they are at the level where they want to step it up a notch perhaps they should show how to make it work against resistance.
The fact is the average person wont know what your about to do...(plus so many factors would be against what they are doing...like punching them in the nose or hitting their hand to loosen up.) ;) it even took them months to figure out to actively fight against kote Gaeshi. I have always went with it, as there is to much danger and getting your wrist dislocated - or the feeling that it will be.

So my point is simple.
When you are going for kotegaeshi, and someones hand is stiff as a board, and the guy is stronger than you...how do you 'break' the stiffness to get the bend needed for kote gaeshi?
Is there a pressure point?

I suppose in real life you would hit it - but in real life he wouldnt be waiting for kotegaeshi...it would be tight, but not a pure resistance.

Anyway

Peace

dalen

dalen7

05-14-2008, 02:27 AM

I wanted to add for clarification that its not the full body that is resisting...its only the hand being stiff.

See, it never really occured to me, as the hand is already kind of tense to begin with, and as the body moves the tork happens and thus its to much pain to resist.

But these two dudes are going into it, following the movement - but keeping their hands tight so as to avoid the proper motion for the tork in the hand...which is pointless as that is what takes them down to begin with. (i.e. going down as to avoid the pain of resistance to the hand/wrist tork.)

I suppose if I somehow did something different with my move as they spin around with me...I could get them to loosen the hand.
(But that would only be effective in ura.)

Here is the real problem, and I wish I could explain it to them properly. (My Hungarian is not good enough and Sensei already tried to tell the group, not sure if they were even there when he mentioned it though.) And that is simply they think that they are doing something cool by resisiting...but Im not going at full speed of full power.

So they think they have a solution when they are just messing with practice. If we both went for it someone would get hurt...guess this is how it is sometimes in the beginning phases...some people try to run before they can walk.

But regardless, if there is a pressure point I can loosen them up with that would be cool. (We used to have some senior students that practiced this, but they went on to do their own thing - they got tired of the same old stuff it seems.)

I have to admit, I just thought kote gaeshi worked...but now Im a bit disappointed. Again, I know that this is an awkward set up...as they know the move about to be done...and Im not trying to do things with force to hurt them...so Im trying to keep that in mind not to be discouraged.

Hope this makes some sense. :)

Peace

Dalen

- so in short, its awkward to see them on the floor doing ukemi, whenever what was supposed to put them there, the wrist tork...didnt work. Its like - what was the point of the whole exercise, I couldnt even break his wrist lock in order to apply pressure to tork the wrist.

grondahl

05-14-2008, 02:50 AM

How does your school do kotegaeshi, breaking the wrist sideways with the thumbs on the backside of the hand or do you put your fingers in the same direction as ukes hand and roll his fingers in to the weak spot slightly behind his elbow? I haven´t found anyone that can resist the "roll-method" as long as you get the correct position and disruption of their balance so that kotegaeshi is an option. And getting the balance break and correct position is much more difficult (at least for me) than the "wrist twist".

When you are going for kotegaeshi, and someones hand is stiff as a board, and the guy is stronger than you...how do you 'break' the stiffness to get the bend needed for kote gaeshi?
Is there a pressure point?

Dieter Haffner

05-14-2008, 02:58 AM

Aaah ... the good old 'OM(F)G-My-Favorite-Technique-Does-Not-Work-Anymore'. We all have that feeling once in a while, and more often then we would like.
I have a hate-love relationship with iriminage (notice that the hate is in front of the love).
You start to get the hang of some technique ... fall in love with it ... and then evil sensei adds something more to it and you feel you want to cry like a little baby that got his lollypop taken away from him after the first lick.

Getting familiar and fluid with a technique for a 5th kyu examen does not mean it needs to be effective. Sensei only wants to see if you know what technique goes with what name and if you know where you need to place your feet and hands. At least I have the feeling that that is required in my dojo.

Although you might be able to make a technique work by hitting someone in the nose, you are only masking a poor technique. There are other ways to get/keep kuzushi, that's what we need to practise.
And did I mention that atemi is very important?

Now the kotegaeshi problem. I once had to practise with an uke that had wrist problems, so I could not crank the wrists to make the technique work. I had to unbalance him by using the lower upper arm, just above the wrist. After a bit of searching I had it figured out. And now I always do kotegaeshi as if uke has wrist problems, the wrist cranking is a little extra I sometimes put in there.
So Dalen, perhaps you can try to make kotegaeshi work by grabbing above the wrist and without the cranking. If sensei allows it offcourse, always do what sensei says (or shows ;) ) first.

Btw: with 'you' I dont me you, Dalen, but the general aikidoka. I hope you (Dalen :)) got something out of my rambling.

Aikibu

05-14-2008, 03:32 AM

Insead of focusing on Ukes wrist and "turning it over" Think of the arm as a fulcrum starting with the elbow. If you gently press down and out on his inner elbow with your none wristing grabbing hand as you turn Tenkan into KG while gently twisting the wrist in and up towards you keeping everything in your center No one with resistance can defend against the elbow pressure successfully. Call it an inner elbow Atemi if you like.. You can then "run" your none wrist grabbing hand down his lower arm as you execute KG in Omote or Ura to finish at the wrist...

In this clip Notice very carefully Nishio Shihan's brushing the elbow and inner arm of Uke into KG. As a bonus notice how the foot and hand work for Bokken and Jo are the same as empty hand...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfXlMT-dApA&feature=related

In this clip You see how Stefan Stenudd a regular poster here interprets KG. He's had extensive experiance with Nishio Shihan Aikido and if you look carefully you'll see him making contact with and brushing the elbow washing his hand down Ukes Arm into KG.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWwsz-17tSU&feature=related

I personally really focus a little Atemi at the elbow specifically because there is a pressure point there which comes in very handy when you get a big ol galoot of resistance from an UKE like me...LOL So my movement is a bit different but hopefully when your UKE does the big old stiff arm...You'll handle it ok. :)

Good Luck and now its time to go back to bed. :)

William Hazen

dalen7

05-14-2008, 03:36 AM

How does your school do kotegaeshi, .

- grab wrist, and take fingers and push hand at angle.
So I suppose the second method.

It always worked...but instead of the usual tension you have, there was an active resistance in the hand to move against the roll...it was weird indeed as it always seemed to work before.

(Even on this guy until he started doing this.)

Thanks for the advice, Im taking all this in and still pondering.
Maybe I will try to shoot sensei and email and ask him to demonstrate this - or at least to re-address how 5th kyus are to go about in practice. (I say email as I need translation - my Hungarian language skills arent the best.) :)

Peace

dAlen

dalen7

05-14-2008, 03:46 AM

So Dalen, perhaps you can try to make kotegaeshi work by grabbing above the wrist and without the cranking. If sensei allows it offcourse, always do what sensei says (or shows ;) ) first.

Btw: with 'you' I dont me you, Dalen, but the general aikidoka. I hope you (Dalen :)) got something out of my rambling.

- about the rules...
technically speaking Sensei has addressed the issue of lower ranks needing to do the technique properly, without resisting at this stage. (I mean stubborn resistance, we do have normal tension)
For one you dont get a proper perspective...the guy thinks his resistance works...but thats because he knows what Im doing...plus Im not applying force.

problem is I dont think these guys heard sensei when he mentioned it months back...dont know they had even started training yet.

Regardless,
What your saying about getting them off balance with grabbing by the wrist has caught my attention.

Technically speaking you grab by the wrist before you 'crank' with the other hand? Right? So Im trying to understand exactly where you are coming from.

Is this more of a grab the wrist and a quick move downward?

It seems the main problem is they are using force to actively resist the technique- and Im going through the motion...yes with some force, but very controlled as not to hurt anyone with the twisting of the wrist. (but not enough force to overcome their force)

If I met them with the same amount of energy they had there would be serious risk for injury at this stage...and this is why Sensei doesnt want us trying to go all out - to keep it controlled. - again they dont seem to get it.

So as I do this, Im trying to get the hand to crank without going full out...which would end up getting them hurt and then I would be the one at fault as it were - because of their lack of cooperation and my energy trying to meet theres.

Not sure how clear this is in writing...trying to spell it out to give as clear of picture as to what is happening.

The point, I suppose would be if indeed this technique would work against someone who, as you put it, has wrist problems - i.e., it doesnt want to bend because they are resisting - without hurting them from too much force. :)

Peace

dAlen

Aikibu

05-14-2008, 03:54 AM

dalen7

05-14-2008, 04:06 AM

Well I found this You Tube video of Shioda Shihan and he shows the internal power of Aikido very well, and notice how he uses Uke's elbow pressure points as "tools" LOL

Enjoy :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco&feature=related

Now I am really going back to bed. LOL

William Hazen

My only question about elbow pressure is that wouldnt this be only for ura? Your really couldnt do it in omote could you?

You have some things for me to think about for sure, thanks.
I need to go check out the videos...they will probably answer some of my questions.

Peace

dAlen

- I re-read your post...and got where your coming from.
So basically your grabbing up by the elbow with one hand - pushing down and towards yourself - and then you begin to crank the wrist, and as you do you slide the hand upward?

I suppose on ura, there could be a way to lock the elbow as you are turning around...seems I recall months ago a 3rd kyu showing me this...I could never get the lock to work. (Im just now getting the locks and twist in shihonage to work. (well, I had a 5 months break, and we practice twice a weak, not always covering the same thing...so it takes longer to get past just the 'normal' movements of say shionage, to see what could make it work...but as soon as I say that, something will come along like with what happened with kotegaeshi here, which will challenge me again...arggghhh. :lol:

Peace

dAlen

dalen7

05-14-2008, 04:23 AM

I wanted to thank everyone who replied...you have given me something to contemplate and practice.

Peace

dAlen

Beard of Chuck Norris

05-14-2008, 06:22 AM

dalen7

05-14-2008, 06:45 AM

We've done some resistance on the old kote gaishi.

I find that resistance is effective when nage attempts to do the technique on the wrist using his / her hands. If you try to do the wrist turn with the intention of taking their centre by moving your whole body then KG comes on like a daemon.

peace and love

Jo

You know - I have a feeling, that although I am moving my body...I am not keeping center.
I think Im still at the stage where Im happy to remember the steps and I need to focus on maintaining a center stance throughout.

At the begining I was horrible at this...my arms wanted to work alone...and your right, even though my body moves...my mind has it set that its my hands that are folding the ukes hands...

One comment that I know has been told to me time and again it would seem, is that Im too 'stiff' - 'tense' in my movements.
My body tenses up to get ready to 'punch' (best way to describe it - well maybe 'fight' would be a better description.

Again, this comes with time, I suppose and reflects (hopefully) in each belt level.

There is still the part of cooperation on ukes part - if they are just being plain stubborn and you do everything with a center movement, it might 'shake' them up and they might take offense. (i.e., think your being to rough, but yet discount the fact there not helping out in the overall scheme of what is happening.)

Aikido is very interesting in that you are depedning - working with others - who have a different take on how they want to do something.

Tyically sensei can track this down...but sometimes it gets past by, and again with the language barrier (limited knoweldge of each others language) Aikido can be a real challenge.

Anyway...here is hoping my feet and hands and body start working as one unit and not independent of each other. :)

Peace

dAlen

Beard of Chuck Norris

05-14-2008, 07:27 AM

...snip...

Aikido can be a real challenge.

<snip>
Peace
dAlen

There's an understatement!!
:D :D

Gambatte!

This stuff is bloody hard, yet so easy at the same time. When i were 5th kyu (probably like most people) i was happy when i remembered that kote gaishi was "that wrist twisty out one".

dalen7

05-14-2008, 07:35 AM

I just came across an article, doing a google search, that specifically deals with the whole issue of uke tensing his wrist to prevent take down.

A guy by the name of Christ Tozer quoted 'O' Sensei and went on in about 4 more paragraphs to explain that how with little extra effort that you should still be able to take down someone tensing.

Some aspects of anatomy and muscles how they work were pointed out in 'proving' the theory...it seems 'sound' in idea, but as pointed out you have to have your movements co-ordinated.

This includes the timing of the movement of your hip to your hand...which at this time I still rely heavily on my hand to move hand into wrist lock.

I would post from the thread here, but Im not sure the rules about giving links to other message boards as well as how much is permitted in quotes - (i.e. whole thing as long as name is included, etc.)

It really goes straight to the heart of the issue, and again brings up an aspect/technique that a user here pointed out...which I was unfamilar with.

Particularly the question was posed if I used my thumb or rolled with my fingers.

I usually roll with the fingers, but apparently 'O' Sensei was recommending to not grab the wrist, per say, but to grab with your thumb under the pinky and ring finger to get control over the wrist.
The movement would be like a cutting motion down - and as you turn your right and would turn the hand pushing down as well...with ukes hand and your hands lining up at your center.

Now all I need to do is get this guy to train with me more...he is kind of stand offish and trains selectively...again, I suppose it has to do with the language bit...who knows.

Peace

dAlen

- The info came from an older article from 2000, Chris Tozer - again, Im not familiar with the policy of reposting articles, etc. thats why I didnt. ;)

dalen7

05-14-2008, 07:51 AM

I will add to the above post...

While grabbing the hand, by placing your thumb on the base of the ukes ring and pinky finger might work for what Im looking for - i.e., the stubborn uke trying to prove something...I would think in a real situation, its easier to grab the wrist...also in a real situation the uke will not be predisposed to having his wrist already prepped in locked up.

So its a win win scenario - a technique that suits each purpose.

I suppose that is what aikido is all about - making it work for you, and flowing...not being stuck with one idea. :)

Peace

dAlen

Stefan Stenudd

05-14-2008, 07:52 AM

When you are going for kotegaeshi, and someones hand is stiff as a board, and the guy is stronger than you...how do you 'break' the stiffness to get the bend needed for kote gaeshi?
Much has already been said. When people resist, there are two things that I regard as particularly important:
1 Extend uke's arm forward, before making the kotegaeshi twist. Like mentioned earlier: tori's movement is from uke's elbow toward the wrist, and pushing on in that direction.
2 Keep uke's hand right in front of your center, and use your whole body in the twist. When uke is very strong, you need to keep the hand very close to your center, maybe even hold it against your belly.

Also pay attention to how you grip uke's wrist. Make that grip a squeeze to sligthly separate uke's hand from the underarm. That will weaken uke's resistance power significantly.

A completely different solution is to get things going, making uke stumble forward, and then do the kotegaeshi more like a kokyunage than a wrist twist.

dalen7

05-14-2008, 08:06 AM

1 Extend uke's arm forward, before making the kotegaeshi twist. Like mentioned earlier: tori's movement is from uke's elbow toward the wrist, and pushing on in that direction.
2 Keep uke's hand right in front of your center, and use your whole body in the twist. When uke is very strong, you need to keep the hand very close to your center, maybe even hold it against your belly.

Point one is definitely something I need to practice more with all my moves...which is to focus, as I move, on how to take Ukes balance by over extending their reach, twisting an arm/wrist, etc....and not just 'walk' through the movements.

I suppose a lot for me is just trying to memorize what moves are what. Now that Im getting the moves 'down' (well the basic ones) I can focus more on unbalancing uke and keeping center.

Thanks for the post..

All of the post have been welcomed and enlightening... given me a lot to think about. Again, the whole experience taught me that there are layers to Aikido...(stating the obvious here, but I meant more than what I initially anticipated...) suppose just like real life. ;)

Peace

dAlen

akiy

05-14-2008, 08:52 AM

When you are going for kotegaeshi, and someones hand is stiff as a board, and the guy is stronger than you...how do you 'break' the stiffness to get the bend needed for kote gaeshi?
Hmm... When I encounter arm resistance of that sort in kotegaeshi, I find it's much easier to just change the technique, perhaps to something like rokkyo (hijikime osae, wakigatame).

-- Jun

dalen7

05-14-2008, 09:05 AM

Hmm... When I encounter arm resistance of that sort in kotegaeshi, I find it's much easier to just change the technique, perhaps to something like rokkyo (hijikime osae, wakigatame).

-- Jun

Sometimes the most logical solution is right in front of us - thanks. :)
Key is adaptation for sure.

Peace

dAlen

edit to add:
...but I have no clue what any of the moves you mentioned are.
Everything we do in 6th/5th kyu is primarily Ai Hanmi/Gyaku Hami with some shomen uchi, Kata Tori, & Suwari waza added in the mix. (with the typical: Shionage, Iriminage, Uchikaiten Nage, Kotegaeshi, Kokyu-ho, Udemkima nage - and of course ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo.)

It will be nice to expand my current knowledge base beyond where it currently is...
But step-by-step, hopefully I can get my foundations rooted in the above first. :)

It has been helpful to have this forum to come to in order to post questions.
(particularly in light of the fact Im learning Aikido in a foreign language Im not fluent in...) :)

edit again: :)
Looked up Rokkyo - pretty cool.

Demetrio Cereijo

05-14-2008, 09:11 AM

In my experience, people can stiff their wrist when they are balanced. If they're busy regaining balance they usually can't put much strenght in their wrist.

Anyway, there are a pair of clips of Saito H. performing kotegaeshi. May be you find some useful there.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=1DOhGmysZyo
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kllguJOIVRk

Stefan Stenudd

05-14-2008, 09:17 AM

When I encounter arm resistance of that sort in kotegaeshi, I find it's much easier to just change the technique, perhaps to something like rokkyo (hijikime osae, wakigatame).
True, that's a swift solution, but not necessarily the one that teaches the most. Some resistance problems are better to work on.
But if uke resists with great force exactly the technique you are supposed to do, then changing quickly to another technique is the aiki way to handle it.
One has to do it carefully, though, because uke will be way out of balance and probably not able to control his or her ukemi properly.

dalen7

05-14-2008, 09:27 AM

In my experience, people can stiff their wrist when they are balanced. If they're busy regaining balance they usually can't put much strenght in their wrist.

Your right...with this one guy I was relying on just bending his wrist and not so much on taking his balance - which I suppose would be a wise practice with each aikido move?

One problem I have is that Im trying to be careful with the uke.
Like yesterday I went to do Kotegaeshi ura.
As I spin around, pulling ukes arm down to take balance - the uke decided to play around and 'escape' from the technique. (again this is not the norm, but sometimes they 'horse play' - of course its not when sensei is looking. I know, it sounds like a kindergarten the way Im describing it.)

But again, he was able to get out of the move, as when I do kotegaeshi ura I try to be careful as not to mess someones wrist up.

I know from experience when your going fast in one direction and then nage turns around rips your wrist in the opposite direction...if your not ready - it hurts.

So some of the problems are stemming from the lower grade belts 'horsing around' and not understanding why the rules of the dojo are there.

Anyway...great comments from everyone.

Peace

dAlen

dragonteeth

05-14-2008, 09:34 AM

Wow - does your uke have any clue how easy it can be to get hurt if they don't know what they're doing?

dalen7

05-14-2008, 09:43 AM

Wow - does your uke have any clue how easy it can be to get hurt if they don't know what they're doing?

I will say that there does seem to be a lack of understanding from the lower grades of why things are done the way they are. - Part of it is the fact that a couple of them show up once a week or every other week. - so if Sensei tried to explain 'whys', etc. they missed it.

Peace

dAlen

I will add that I have been hurt once by a senior student when he tried out a technique - that we werent supposed to be practicing - so I was unaware of what was coming...I think this helped to wake him up a bit. (hadnt had a repeat incident.)

Also, with a guest student, his style was using big 'jerky' movements, which left my elbow hurting for a couple of weeks.

This is excluding innocent accidents, such as when a fellow student of similar rank over did nikkyo and left my wrist in pain for awhile. (That was pure accident...nikkyo seems to be a 'hit' or a miss.)

charyuop

05-14-2008, 11:07 AM

Aikido is spiral, but nobody ever set a rule for the size of the spiral. The more tension there is the more sfter you get and the more the spiral becomes smaller.

I remember what I felt like (and I would pay who knows how much to have a picture) the first time Senpai didn't "flow" as usual with my kotegaeshi. After the instruction from Sensei not to be so much complaiant Senpai started responding in a different way. All of a sudden kotegaeshi no longer worked. That great technique was actually killing me, because would let Senpai to face me ready to punch my nose off. After kotegaeshi I had the same feeling for many other techniques and still have to figure out how to adjust.

And adjusting is what you have to learn to do, you don't have to learn to throw Uke. I assume the resistance that you experience is the one like "he is a rock and can't move him spirally as kotegaeshi requires". Well, then don't. If Uke is good enough to spin around to face you and remains centered, well it is useless to go on doing what you were doing. You might find more effective, instead of going on with the wide movement to take Ukes balance away, simply attack Uke's center. That means that instead of keeping rotating reduce the spiral movement so small that it is as if you walk streight into Uke's center. I found out that is Uke has still a good center a twist on the side kotegaeshi will not work anymore because both Uke and Nage have the same lateral range of motion. At that point it is more usefull a movement that might remind Nikkyo. Compress Uke's hand streight down using your center, only now that you have regained the advantage of the center, twisting the wrist will have a certain effect.

I tell you this, but in the end I do the same wrong thing hee hee (I preach well, but act bad ouch). Don't throw Uke, that is not your job. Your job is figuring out why sometimes kotegaeshi works in one way and why sometimes works in another way. Your job is figuring out what is the correct position, not on the mat, but compared to Uke. You can't draw a line on the tatami and think you always follow that line, it won't work coz Uke won't be doing the same movement everytime.
If you find resistance stop. But that doesn't mean stop, stretch your legs, moan, complain and restart...maybe next time you can throw Uke. STOP and remain there with Uke, figure out where Uke weak point is and take advantage of it. You might need to move the whole body, just twist a little more the hips or (I found out this for me in my iriminage) sometimes it is enough just lower more the knees.

dalen7

05-14-2008, 11:24 AM

just twist a little more the hips or (I found out this for me in my iriminage) sometimes it is enough just lower more the knees.

That is something I have been told - to move my hips and draw the power from there - It doesnt really come natural to me yet...I still rely on upper body strength it seems.

Peace

dAlen

ChrisHein

05-14-2008, 12:48 PM

Hmm... When I encounter arm resistance of that sort in kotegaeshi, I find it's much easier to just change the technique, perhaps to something like rokkyo (hijikime osae, wakigatame).

-- Jun

Best advice.

If you think of powering through stiffness you are not learning Aikido, you are learning to push through resistance. Ideally you should stay fluid and take the next opening they offer you. That being said, it's still really hard to do.

bkedelen

05-14-2008, 01:02 PM

Try this. Grasp the unbending wrist and walk toward your partner pressing their hand firmly into your chest, just below the sternum. Keeping a solid grip on your partner, turn slightly to the outside and do a standing breakfall. That ought to clear the problem right up.

dalen7

05-14-2008, 01:18 PM

dalen7

05-14-2008, 01:30 PM

Best advice.

If you think of powering through stiffness you are not learning Aikido, you are learning to push through resistance. Ideally you should stay fluid and take the next opening they offer you. That being said, it's still really hard to do.

True - part of the problem would appear to be mine in how I execute the technique.
- i.e. the lack of throwing Ukes balance...and ripping his thumb out. j/k :D

Seriously though, some good concepts have been presented in this thread which have made me re-think how I have been executing the technique...which of course I know needs improvement.

On the other hand, Ukes active 'stubborn' resistance to the technique is actually not how the Sensei wants us to train. Well, at least not those of us who havent even tested for our 5th kyu yet.

So in this case I like the last post which suggest doing a 'standing breakfall' - I know its not in the spirit of Aikido to do an eye for an eye. - or the whole world would be blind. :)

Peace

dAlen

Nafis Zahir

05-15-2008, 01:58 AM

Wow - does your uke have any clue how easy it can be to get hurt if they don't know what they're doing?

I guess they don't. If you were to apply KG on the streets and the person got stiff, you may not get the throw off, and they may not fall, but the wrist is going to get torn to pieces and they'll be in a great deal of pain.

eyrie

05-15-2008, 08:18 PM

That is something I have been told - to move my hips and draw the power from there - It doesnt really come natural to me yet...I still rely on upper body strength it seems.
Uh.... no... :) Power comes from the feet/ground, up the rear leg, through the tanden and into your hands...

Mechanically, kote gaeshi works by hyperdorsiflexion and hypersupination of the wrist. This means folding the wrist towards AND to the outside of the elbow crease.

Technically speaking, folding the wrist/fingers toward the elbow crease and down, as some have suggested as an alternative, is kote oroshi (wrist drop), which is a different technique....

The wrist is an inherently weak structure, as the distal radial-ulna joint is not an articulated joint, but "suspended" by ligaments and cartilage... in particular, the triangular fibrocartilage complex (TFCC).

Basically, you want to traumatize the TFCC and cause a sublaxation of the ulna styloid process or perilunate dislocation... that is... if your intent is to pull an Aunty Jack on uke for being uncooperative... but really there is no need to if you understand how the technique is designed to work, and how to apply it statically first.

Sometimes a slight shift of body angle and direction of applied power is all it takes.... but without seeing what you're doing/not doing, it is difficult to recommend any definitive solution - that's what your Sensei is there for. I would suggest that if you are meeting with resistance, you may wish to consider looking at either "creating a base" (perhaps moving it further up to the elbow - someone mentioned "brushing the elbow"...), OR taking uke beyond the structural limit of their power... or both.... as in... the wrist bone's connected to the elbow bone... is connected to the foot bone... ;)

jennifer paige smith

05-16-2008, 10:05 AM

dalen7

05-16-2008, 12:45 PM

thanks everyone for your input - i have learned quite a bit from everyones post the last 2 pages!

peace

dAlen

rob_liberti

05-16-2008, 07:27 PM

Here are the levels I progressed through in my kotegaeshi experience.

At a totally low level - crank the wrist level - the main thing to know is to cover your thumb with the palm of your hand. It adds power by lining you up structurally.

Next, still at low level. If you want to effect someone's center and you are totally new, the thing to work towards is to get them moving in 3 dimensions. For instance:
- arm away from them, down, and in toward you for kaitenage
- arm going backward towards them, down, and in toward you for kotegaeshi.

I've been doing this long enough that if you try pretty much any of the suggested methods it won't work. However, the notable exception of the solution posed by Benjamin Edelen (which was halarious!!!) I'll take ukemi for that!. Under most normal amount of pressure, my wrist just doesn't feel pain there anymore and if you put all of your attention on tying to break my wrist I'm not going to stand there, I'm going to to hit you in the ribs and probably break them.

Next level past the "wrist crank" is to think of it in terms of drawing the arm out away from uke's center, turning, and driving their arm straight back into their center - and just at the last moment when it is about to crash their elbow back into their hips, you change the direction from where you are holding their wrist area like you are using a rutter on a boat so their arm goes back behind them. The issue here is that you have to get your body into thier blind spot (shikaku) and while all of that is going on physically, you have to be setting your intention as if you are cutting/slicing through their center. (This part alludes most and I'm still working on it to various degrees.)

In my opinion, the next level of this you really have to establish verticality. I find it an easy way to break into what Ignatius Teo wrote about "Power comes from the feet/ground, up the rear leg, through the tanden and into your hands..." The way I think is easiest to grasp and make progress is to practice breaking it down by doing things like body down (bend knees) with arms starting to go down and then while arms continue to go down on them your body starts going back up (kind of like imagine you are in a manhole and using your arms to lift you up). Establish that (it will not work on someone super stable, but it works very well in normal motion). Once you get them that way, you can spin behind them (Tohei sensei style) - as you spin you will find that you naturally extend their arm out away from their center as I described above, and then as you continue them and you stop and convert your spin the other direction - that they start drawing in to you, and for the wrist turn, you can actually just repeat the body down/arms start down then body up/arms continue down - while stepping through - so your bobdy movement does it all and you can completely avoid "wristy/twisty". You should be able to do it with that hand I was initially describing as covering your thumb instead making a "T" with uke's hand. As they drop you can actually pull back up on their wrist to give them a nice "whip snap" to the ground before you roll them for the pin.

The NEXT level, I find you need to practice a total body weight shift forward. You have to line up so that when you move foward all of your weight falls and cleaning gets expressed through your arms into uke's completely stable and 100% unwilling to move extended arm. I can show this, but it's a bit difficult to describe. You can get the most stable people to move this way, and then fall into what was described earlier.

The next level, through most of all of it out. Totally develop true verticality through spinal alignment, and various crosslines of intention which is super difficult to get right! Be flowing up ward and downward at the same time. When you touch the person by turning around your spine and not moving your hips (or nose initially) but just your trunk, and the person feels all of those "soft power" forces simply drop your arm through their center and they'll take ukemi. Good luck with that one!

Rob

Aiki1

05-17-2008, 09:38 AM

In my experience, one can look at a technique like Kotegaeshi in three ways: a joint lock, a skeletal lock, or a way of connecting to Uke's center and allowing them to lose their balance.

As a joint lock, it is mostly done by twisting or manipulating the wrist to force the person either down or into a forward roll. it can be countered the most easily, as strength can be used to freeze the wrist, etc. Kuzushi usually comes from either pain or potential pain. If completed, this can cause injury from the torque, and it is usually done with muscle and takes a lot of force. This is the least desirable.

As a skeletal lock, the focus is beyond just the wrist, and a feeling for how to connect all the way to Uke's center is necessary. Kuzushi comes from a lock-up from wrist to hips, and is a more subtle skill, with less pain and muscle involved. It can often still be countered by either stiffening the wrist, or by "pushing" one's hand/wrist forward and moving into the technique with the whole body, which makes it harder to get the whole body locked up. This approach to Kotegaeshi is more desirable to me than the first, since if it is done correctly, there is less or no pain involved, and less possible injury to the wrist.

The third way I find to be the most subtle and desirable, as it is virtually impossible to counter if done correctly, and has virtually no potential for pain or injury. It doesn't particularly matter what Uke does, one simply connects hand to hand in the position of Kotegaeshi (Musubi), tracks Uke's movement from a safe place (Tsukuri), and by feeling for where their center can lose stability and be released to the ground (Kuzushi) Nage only need move their own center correctly and Uke will not be able to hold or regain their balance. Nage then simply Releases them and they fall. The more stiff Uke's wrist is in this case, the more resistance, in a sense the easier it is to achieve Kuzushi, because they are locking themselves up that much more. This a subtle skill though, and takes a while to get, because Nage isn't "doing something to Uke" so to speak, but "moving with them" and helping them lose their balance. They hardly feel anything. But that's the kind of Aikido I like the best.

Rupert Atkinson

05-17-2008, 02:42 PM

... But that's the kind of Aikido I like the best.
What other kind is there? Good explanation = on the same wavelength.

rob_liberti

05-18-2008, 05:12 AM

What other kind is there? Good explanation = on the same wavelength.

The only kinds are as follows:
- strength
- technique
- harmony (wa)
- michi

that's it...

It's easy to get lost in translation. To me when I think skeletal lock these days it has nothing to do with what that used to mean to me (usually it meant crank the wrist and hope for the best). Now I think using soft power how can I touch them above their waste (on their arm or wherever) and have them primarily effected in their legs - and the only way to do that is to get some kind of skeletal line up threw their body that they are just locked into. (This maybe makes a little more sense if you think iriminage - but kotegaeshi is basically the same thing in terms of this aspect). In a sense, that level is still all technique - but it's vary harmonious technique. Don't ask me about michi level. I'm stil working for harmony (but I think it is harmony within me - under pressure or not, and under pressue creating harmony outside me but that's more theory for me at this point!)

Rob

Rocky Izumi

05-25-2008, 10:39 PM

Get to 90 degrees and behind position before compression of wrist. Take wrist back to Uke's centre to join and give Kuzushi, then lead to third point.

Rock

Kevin Leavitt

05-25-2008, 10:53 PM

90 Degrees...hmmm sounds like a good concept for a DVD :)

Rocky Izumi

05-26-2008, 01:05 AM

Unabashed plug for a training DVD? :eek: Sorry. It just came out. That is where my mind is these days I guess.

Rock

Don

05-26-2008, 12:21 PM

Try this, some has been mentioned before but I will amplify. For best effect you should practice unbalancing your opponent. Everything is easier then. Resistance in one appendage is hard to concentrate on when uke's entire body is off balance. That said, if a wrist is tightened up that means the elbow is got a more or less rigid connection and once you can work the elbow, it connects to the shoulder and then the spine.

You must train yourself to turn your hips while keeping your hands (and uke's wrist in front of your center (in other words your arms do not move relative to your center). As you turn your hips and tension is thusly applied to uke's wrist, if you have positioned uke's forearms so that it is not extended relative the upper arm (there is a bend in uke's arm at the elbow), you will lock up the wrist and elbow. (Resistance actually helps this). Once the wrist and elbow lock up, as you continue to turn your hips, you will move the shoulder and entire body. Uke may not find that they have to flip over all the time, but they will not continue to stand. For greater effect as you turn your hips and the arms locks up, drop your hips vertically (your hands are in your center all this time). You will plant your uke. I've done this on 6'4" 270 lb cops. (Now in the spirit of full disclosure, unbalancing become very important when your uke is 4" and 80 lbs heavier than you),

dalen7

05-26-2008, 02:05 PM

(Now in the spirit of full disclosure, unbalancing become very important when your uke is 4" and 80 lbs heavier than you),

It would seem some strength is needed as well.
Someone quite larger is likely to be more rooted in the ground, so to speak, - not saying this is always the case, but it reminds me of Princess Bride where the guy goes up against the giant and cant budge him. (Imagine trying Aikido on Andre the Giant.) :)

Thanks for the post, some good concepts in there.

Peace

dAlen

Don

05-26-2008, 08:08 PM

Nope. Strength not advised. You will delude yourself of what your abilities are or you will get frustrated. Folks bigger or stronger than you are your test of your aikido. Specifically your ability to perceive, blend with, and use their motion and energy. I can easily do kote Gaeshi on a 5'-6" 150 lb uke with little or no technique, because I am 6' and 200 lbs. But what does that prove? Not much. When I practice against my 6'-4" 270 lb police officer friend, pure strength is useless. I have to off-balance him. Now, even if he regains some centering, my objective with someone as large and strong as he is is to move him to a point where his center of mass is outside of his body or close to it by leading him into a position where his torso is forward or his hips. This is all accomplished by practicing blending (the real important part of the technique) over and over and over. Then locking up the wrist, elbow, arm, and spine are easy. Anyone can twist a wrist with little instruction. Doing it in a way that can be applied to opponents or varying size and that effects their entire body is what you are trying to figure out. Have fun in your search. Don't hurt anyone in the process.

philippe willaume

05-27-2008, 04:25 AM

It would seem some strength is needed as well.
Someone quite larger is likely to be more rooted in the ground, so to speak, - not saying this is always the case, but it reminds me of Princess Bride where the guy goes up against the giant and cant budge him. (Imagine trying Aikido on Andre the Giant.) :)

Thanks for the post, some good concepts in there.

Peace

dAlen
Hello
Assuming that we are talking of kote-geshi the ura with a tenkan at the start
You will have the problem you describe with anyone that strikes properly: I.e.: committed and stable (or in balance if you prefer).

With tenkan you gain position safely but If he is stable you will need to create the isolation.
People much better than me, can create that isolation with timing and nudging a bit of the stability away and use that advantage to keep head time wise.
At my level, trying to do that is a too much of being an about equal windows of opportunity for me and my opponent. (Call me old fashion but I do not like about even odds)

If your guy is being cheeky or you are practicing active resistance together (ie he know what is coming and wants to make it as hard as possible for you).
He may corkscrew his punch (ending with the back of the fist upwards.
If you had that to being stable, that is going to make you life difficult.
He is already set against the technique before you start. he his already in a position to counter you, let alone to resist the technique.

A solution is to start as if you were going to do rokkyo (hiji jime) then change in effect let him win the resistance. He will set himself up for kote geishi.
(Personally in use the crumbling paper version as opposed to side hand sweep)

Sometime, a technique is not there, so doing it is not appropriate but usually resisting on technique will give you another one.
We can argue to no end, if such is the case the why bother with the technique that is not there or if in that case if rokkio may not be counter productive as I really goes to the opposite of KG.
However I think it get us closer to the little nugde that people that are better than me because ultimately, you can reduce HJ to its very initial part, only to create the isolation.

phil

Bill Danosky

05-27-2008, 03:41 PM

Just to keep us using the same language- In Yoshinkan Aikido, we have ichi (linear) and ni (circular or involving a pivot/tenkan) techniques.

Either way, with kote gaeshi you have to get your uke moving. In ichi, you drag them in the direction of their attack, then execute the throw. In ni, you pivot and bring uke around your center.

Once they have taken a step or two, it's much easier to achieve kuzushi because they think they're resisting the initial movement.

IMHO: You have to keep in mind, the power of kote gaeshi is in it's name "wrist reversal".

PS: Typically, when we turn back for the throw, we use a strong atemi, then turn the wrist and step through (ichi) or large pivot (ni).

rob_liberti

05-28-2008, 09:47 PM

I'm told that Yamaguchi sensei used to remark that kotegaeshi was probably a bad name for it.

Rob

Keith Larman

05-28-2008, 10:50 PM

I'm told that Yamaguchi sensei used to remark that kotegaeshi was probably a bad name for it.

Rob

Just fwiw, in talking with my sensei about experiences training with Tohei in his prime... I asked about his kotegaeshi. Their comment was it was much like someone very gently putting a pallet of bricks on your outstretched hand. It wasn't that it hurt or that it was twisted or yanked or pushed. It just went down. Inexorable I think is the word...

judojo

05-29-2008, 12:13 AM

Dear Sensei Johnson, The topic Kote Gaeshi such interesting and with resistance of the attacker/uke. The theory of O' Sensei Morihei Ueshiba is of greater value. Why the pure Ai Harmony and Ki chikara are actualized by our root foundation of Aikido his Greatness Erai O' Sensei Morihei Ueshiba? . Because of such Resistance of the Uke which flow the soft and fluid wazas of Traditional Aikido. Thus even the Zuki of uke with resistance is struct down by this Kamae Tachi, combined with this Tore and Nage, and thus the Matte is successful. Reynaldo Ligoro Albano, Ju Dojo

Lyle Bogin

05-29-2008, 01:40 PM

kotegaeshi is infamous for not "working". I think you have to get uke to a point that his mind is not on kotegaeshi, or it will never work as a real "throw"... you might still get off a broken joint while you're getting stabbed in the face though.

Peter Chenier

05-29-2008, 04:43 PM

JamesC

05-30-2008, 06:26 AM

I just learned Kote Gaeshi in class last week. It's a great technique when executed properly.

Luckily for me I had a 1st kyu working with me. I absolutely loved the fact that he did NOT fall down when he didn't need to. He politely critiqued my technique. He didn't actually resist, he just made sure that I was properly executing.

Very grateful for that.

dalen7

06-03-2008, 11:30 PM

Hi all, just from my limited point of view (and few years of karate) kotegaeshi is an absolute smorgasbord of nasty opportunity when it comes to atemi. Everything from head butts, hook punches, empi strikes, and ankle sweeps. I my humble opinion freezing up hard and zeroing in focus on keeping your wrist and arm tight is almost suicidal from Ukes perspective.
Ps I have been on the wrong end of just such atemi by mistake. I've learned to move quickly
Cheers
All
peter

The only thing is Im trying to master, or rather become fluid with the technique so that Im not dependent on Atemi. - i.e., Atemi is like a surprise that I choose to use as a side but dont have to.

But then again, in some scenarios where uke knows the move already, which in a fight would not be real, then you are limited in possibilities, so it would see, :)

Ketsan

06-10-2008, 07:27 PM

Hi all, just from my limited point of view (and few years of karate) kotegaeshi is an absolute smorgasbord of nasty opportunity when it comes to atemi. Everything from head butts, hook punches, empi strikes, and ankle sweeps. I my humble opinion freezing up hard and zeroing in focus on keeping your wrist and arm tight is almost suicidal from Ukes perspective.
Ps I have been on the wrong end of just such atemi by mistake. I've learned to move quickly
Cheers
All
peter

From my understanding the technique is predicated on uke doing just this as the intention of Kote Gaeshi is to break their wrist rather than throw them.

rob_liberti

06-10-2008, 09:07 PM

If you try to break my wrist, I'll certainly break your ribs. It's almost automatic. In a fight for your life, that's a terrible trade - and it's doubtful you'll get the wrist break.

Rob

Ketsan

06-11-2008, 11:29 AM

If you try to break my wrist, I'll certainly break your ribs. It's almost automatic. In a fight for your life, that's a terrible trade - and it's doubtful you'll get the wrist break.

Rob

As I said in the orginal post the whole thing is predicated on them trying to maintain their posture and being as static as possible to resist being thrown. If you can get yourself into a position to lock the wrist up smacking it hard enough to break shouldn't be an issue.
And if they're being static and resisting they've handed over the iniative, you should be able to get your follow up in before they can effectively respond.
Anywho my only point was that resistance in techniques is bad in the dojo but useful in an actual situation.

Mato-san

07-07-2008, 09:22 AM

07-07-2008, 09:29 AM

I think that you need to switch up the angles if it is not working and your uke is resisting..use his resistance , kotegaeshi is one of the most effective Aikido techniques. There is no concrete form, it will work provided the angles are established.

If uke's structure is better, no angle will change the outcome -- it won't work. Resistance is for those who don't have good structure, and if they don't have good structure, then kotegaeshi will work. Changing an angle is just jujutsu. yeah, it'll work for those resisting (see above sentence). But come into contact with someone who has structure and angles don't matter.

Reread Ellis Amdur's post here on AikiWeb about Tomiki holding his hand out to judo players. No amount of angles will work on someone who has structure, or as some people call it -- aiki.

Want to make kotegaeshi work with resistance -- work on having better structure/aiki.

Mato-san

07-07-2008, 09:45 AM

07-07-2008, 10:03 AM

I should have explained myself better, let us go munetsuki kotegaeshi and we have resistance (as we apply the wrist tweak) is it fair to say that switching nages posture and structure back to where the waza began (like rewind) and applying the kotegaeshi (from that angle) would not be realistic or effective from an Ooya henka point of view? I think that would be pretty smooth and is practiced in our dojo regularly.

Well, if your aiki is better, it really doesn't matter where you place uke. If you have better aiki, then even if you switch nage's posture and structure back to where the waza began, you're still going to get kotegaeshi.

On the other hand, if uke's aiki is better, then you can have uke to the side, out over one foot with the other foot in the air, arm stretched, wrist bent, and you will never get kotegaeshi to work.

Aikibu

07-07-2008, 01:58 PM

Well, if your aiki is better, it really doesn't matter where you place uke. If you have better aiki, then even if you switch nage's posture and structure back to where the waza began, you're still going to get kotegaeshi.

On the other hand, if uke's aiki is better, then you can have uke to the side, out over one foot with the other foot in the air, arm stretched, wrist bent, and you will never get kotegaeshi to work.

I have no doubt that "Aiki" as expressed by Uke can be very powerful in stopping the execution of any technique however lets just make sure that we're clear about something (at least in my mind).... KG will not work under most circumstances unless Uke commits fully to the attack.... At any point if Nage allows Uke to control the movement then there is no irimi and KG "ceases to be"

So lets further define "resistance " by what it is not...

I can't tell you how many times someone

A. thinks grabbing my wrist is something more than a very basic training tool and thus "Aikido does not work".
B. stands there with a "strong" center holding my wrist expecting me to move and thus "Aikido does not work"

Not to get off the subject too much but the reason some Dojo's do not understand "aliveness" training is because their Ukemi sucks and I think that is a legitimate complaint.

Not that we practice Alive Ukemi all the time but unless you're willing to go full speed under duress with committed attacks in practice every once in a while then of course KG or any technique will suck because you'll simply never experience how to use them in 'real" conditions....Chris Hein's experimental vids kind of prove this point.

Another point I'd like to make about Aikido is why KG will never work in a MMA or prolonged engagement...

In one word...Sweat...

A technique like KG would be a rarity under duress/resistance unless it's used like it's supposed to be. At the very outset of a conflict in Irimi as a conflict ending technique. You're just not going to pull it off otherwise IMO.

Let me put it this way...It's not on my list of "Money Moves" :D but it's very important to practice because of all the basic elements of Aikido "inside" the expression of KG.

William Hazen

tuturuhan

07-07-2008, 02:26 PM

Creating the Opening

When an opponent grabs your hand, pulling toward him, the "natural reaction" is to pull away.

When we bring a "new student" into our dojo we teach him to "go with the force". We train him to be compliant. Likewise, we send our children to "public school" to be compliant with the rules and regulations of society. We teach our children to become law abiding citizens and society progresses with seeming "mechanic".

When "someone" resists the rules, he is crushed by the "majority police" and banned as an outsider. He is not being compliant to the rules of the dojo. This is staying within the box.

Breaking out of the box, means testing the Sensei with resistance. The really good Sensei incorporates the resistance by "fluidly adapting" and changing the resistance back into compliance. He creates the opening...

mathewjgano

07-07-2008, 05:00 PM

Creating the Opening

When we bring a "new student" into our dojo we teach him to "go with the force". We train him to be compliant...
The really good Sensei incorporates the resistance by "fluidly adapting" and changing the resistance back into compliance. He creates the opening...

I'm hardly an expert, and I might be missing your point, but my understanding is that openings are found, not made. We can lead aite into providing an opening, but it's much like the proverbial horse and water. The premise behind adopting stances, i think, has to do with this idea.
I would also say that when you test your sensei by resisting the initial movement and the sensei then adapts, he's not creating the opening, he's finding a new opening through which to move you into the shape he was originally looking for so he can continue with the rest of the movement he's trying to teach (assuming he doesn't just do something completely different). As far as i can tell, once you have exploited an opening, you can then more or less move uke how you want because their structure is compromised.
As it relates to doing any particular technique, I think it's critical to realize that uke's structure should already be compromised. At first contact it should have begun to erode.

Kevin Leavitt

07-07-2008, 08:00 PM

William Hazen wrote:

Not to get off the subject too much but the reason some Dojo's do not understand "aliveness" training is because their Ukemi sucks and I think that is a legitimate complaint.

I agree.

For me KG is not so much about the technique as it is about learning more about the relationship between uke and nage and how to do it correctly. It ain't about the wrist, and it ain't about the big sweeping circle and being faster than nage that makes it work with a good uke.

I can tell alot about someones experience level by doing KG with them from both uke and nage's side.

I also don't believe in compliance on uke's part. Correct ukemi, imo, does not require compliance...it requires you to maintain integrity all the way through. It is up to nage to disrupt that integrity with aiki along the way. You can protect yourself, be non-compliant, and still be safe if you are doing things correctly.

Beginners, yes, need to slow down and go much, much slower and much, much more methodical, cooperative...yes. Compliance...no....I believe there is a difference.

mathewjgano

07-07-2008, 08:25 PM

I also don't believe in compliance on uke's part. Correct ukemi, imo, does not require compliance...it requires you to maintain integrity all the way through. It is up to nage to disrupt that integrity with aiki along the way. You can protect yourself, be non-compliant, and still be safe if you are doing things correctly.

Beginners, yes, need to slow down and go much, much slower and much, much more methodical, cooperative...yes. Compliance...no....I believe there is a difference.

I meant to say that!
It ain't about the wrist, and it ain't about the big sweeping circle and being faster than nage that makes it work with a good uke.
Part of the problem with kotegaeshi problems that I've seen is that people are thinking too much about the wrist and not taking the whole body into account. Also, it can be a pretty tight circle too though right?

Chris Parkerson

07-07-2008, 08:28 PM

[QUOTE=Kevin Leavitt;210478]William Hazen wrote:

I agree.

For me KG is not so much about the technique as it is about learning more about the relationship between uke and nage and how to do it correctly. It ain't about the wrist, and it ain't about the big sweeping circle and being faster than nage that makes it work with a good uke........need to slow down and go much, much slower and much, much more methodical, cooperative...yes. Compliance...no....I believe there is a difference.[/Quote

Hi Kevin,
I agree. In fact, when a partner is compliant as you have defined it, KG or any technique can be performed slowly and principles can be isolated and perfected.

Regarding KG, I would define the technique as a slight torsion of the radial and ulna until the humerous conntects to the scapula. The bones in the wrist are too loose to depend on and pain compliance is not really the best way to obtain kuzushi.

jennifer paige smith

07-07-2008, 08:37 PM

I'm hardly an expert, and I might be missing your point, but my understanding is that openings are found, not made. We can lead aite into providing an opening, but it's much like the proverbial horse and water. The premise behind adopting stances, i think, has to do with this idea.
I would also say that when you test your sensei by resisting the initial movement and the sensei then adapts, he's not creating the opening, he's finding a new opening through which to move you into the shape he was originally looking for so he can continue with the rest of the movement he's trying to teach (assuming he doesn't just do something completely different). As far as i can tell, once you have exploited an opening, you can then more or less move uke how you want because their structure is compromised.
As it relates to doing any particular technique, I think it's critical to realize that uke's structure should already be compromised. At first contact it should have begun to erode.

A well expressed post,Matt.

At a certain point I went from finding and exploiting openings to creating them also.So I understand Sifu Joe's verbage above.This connects to aspects of Takemusu Aiki, in my lexicon. It springs from experiencing openings in the manner that you described above and then they are taken to another level. How you get there is a matter of personal training.

As an uke, I am distinctly interested in connecting integrously so I might be as fully engaged as possible while also being available to learn from the (creative forces of the) techniques themselves. which constitutes the greatest kind of "receiving" I have,well, received.
Still, there is a lot to be explored; luckily.;)
As for testing sensei with resistance, I expect to be shown an opening somewhere a little south of my tail bone if I am arrogant or tactless in my choice of when to 'test' sensei. In other words, when my spirit/mind is incorrect it gets crumbled. But mostly, I find, i don't hear the lesson being given when i'm roughing it up when i ought to be listening.Not that anyone else would do such a thing. That is my own experience. Buyer be aware.
Best,
Jen

mathewjgano

07-07-2008, 08:47 PM

At a certain point I went from finding and exploiting openings to creating them also.Best,
Jen

Thanks Jen,
As usual, I'll have to defer to greater experience.:)

Kevin Leavitt

07-07-2008, 08:55 PM

Chris, cooperative...not compliant. Compliant to me means you are going with the technique. Cooperative implies that you are matching speed, but are not necessarily going with the technique (compliance).

Matthew, yes, you can be very, very tight with KG. Connecting in on the center of uke you can establish kuzushi without the need for pain. If uke continues to resist, moving your body back into his puts a tremendous amount of force in on his core and he is going down. I don't so much care about the arm or the wrist. I will keep ahold of it when doing weapons stuff lthough so I have control of it.

The whole "break the wrist and walk away, just break the wrist and walk away" is always there though and nice to have, but aiki wise I don't, as others think it is what it is all about, and frankly I have not found it to work well, I ain't that fast.

jennifer paige smith

07-07-2008, 09:03 PM

Thanks Jen,
As usual, I'll have to defer to greater experience.:)

Thank you for your kindness.
I would say, if I may,to defer to the greater mystery of what hasn't been learned yet.
Just like you, and all in my aikido family, I'm a work in progress and I enjoy sharing my training from the perspective of having had my mind blown and changed so many times that I simply know there is a whole lot more out there than I even see today. Your concepts are sound as far as I can tell and I would guess your feet are firmly on the ground from the great underpinnings of your thoughts . There is just so much open road ahead for all of us to explore together. And training is such a wonderful Way.

one more thought:
There is a biblical scripture in Timothy that says (depending on your edition)
Trust in Jehovah with all of your heart
Do not lean upon your own understanding
In all ways take notice of him
And he himself wil make your path straight.

I wack this a little in my own head to say:

Trust in training (nature) with all of your heart
do not lean upon your own understanding
in all ways take notice of it's works
and training(nature) itself will make your path straight.

Thanks for your kind respect.

mathewjgano

07-07-2008, 10:11 PM

Thank you for your kindness.
My pleasure. We educators (I'm only an educator wannabe at this point) have to stick together. :D
I would say, if I may,to defer to the greater mystery of what hasn't been learned yet.
I really like this part! It speaks to a big part of my own raison d'etre, if I may get a bit French. :p And I agree sharing what we each experience of our training is a pretty cool thing. I know this kind of forum is no substitute for hitting the mat, but it does offer so much food for thought.
Take care,
Matt

tuturuhan

07-09-2008, 04:22 PM

Absorb, Adapt, Subtract and Always Utility

I no longer use a slide rule, an cassette deck or a flying spinning hook kick. Though, I always go back to carrying a big stick.

A wrist or elbow lock:

1. Standing vertically (self)
2. Using push hands (two man)
3. Using footwook (to change locations, multiple attack)
4. Using the plate glass window (using objects)
5. Using the wall (to imprison vertically)
6. Using the ground (to imprison to employ gravity horizontally)

No matter the name, the style, the linage, the teacher, on the ground, in the air, while kicking and punching…or in using "It"...it is still a wrist/elbow technique.

Aiki1

07-09-2008, 06:03 PM

No matter the name, the style, the linage, the teacher, on the ground, in the air, while kicking and punching…or in using "It"...it is still a wrist/elbow technique.

One thing that I have found in the years I have been teaching Aikido is that there are many, many different arts that fall under the same umbrella name. Although semantically perhaps it's true, in real terms, in my "style" the above statement really is not true, odd as that may seem to some (to some not.) It (the wrist etc.) really is a way of simply allowing kuzushi to happen, which is what all Aikido techniques are in my approach. While tsukuri (position etc.) can be an important aspect of it at times, it is not completely dependent on it. Nor is the sole use of the wrist/elbow, by any means.

I have found many differences in styes over the years, and have learned from all of them (usually), and have come to the conclusion that most people have different inclinations as to how and why Aikido works for them. In my world, it really is -all- dependant on.... I hesitate to say it.... inner skills of Ki, Aiki, and Musubi, that get translated into the physical interaction. It is never about the technique itself for me.

tuturuhan

07-09-2008, 07:02 PM

Using a Little bit of "It"...whether striking or wrist its all the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwuw6ctjlo

Please note that some have claimed the ability to "strike" and knock their opponents across the room and into walls...I certainly believe it is possible.

07-09-2008, 07:51 PM

rob_liberti

07-09-2008, 08:31 PM

mathewjgano

07-09-2008, 08:47 PM

Kevin Leavitt

07-09-2008, 09:03 PM

Mark,

Yes, thanks for taking the time to post a video. Posting videos if people can keep things constructive and in perspective might go a long way to us being able to communicate better!

Aikibu

07-09-2008, 10:49 PM

Thanks Mark :)

It appeared to be very very basic but I enjoyed seeing you "in action"

William Hazen

Aikibu

07-09-2008, 11:08 PM

After watching it again I would love to see what style of Kote Gaeshi you use with resistance both Omote and Ura

In ours there is an Atemi at the pressure point at the back of the jaw followed by "washing down" uke's arm with the knife edge of your hand using a washing the inside of the bowel sword cutting motion... if Uke still has his center then often hitting a second "pressure point" located in the nerve bundle inside the soft part of the elbow will make Uke "float" then simply continue to wash down the arm to the wrist. If when extending Ukes arm he still has his center (aka what you guys might mean by structure??? I'll have to experience it) then floating his elbow with yours twisting Uke's forearm towards your center often does the trick. Making Uke follow his fingers by using his own arm as an extension of your sword. At the point Uke's entire weight gathers in his wrist just tip his wrist over and... Voila! Kote Gaeshi. Also unlike the vid Nage keeps everything connected to his center and does not extend his arms and shoulders away from his center trying to "muscle" the wrist

In your video you seem to be the uke and if at the end point of Kote Gashi where I had your wrist if you still had your center I would have let go. LOL :)

Thanks again for providing a "baseline" for what you guys are expressing. :)

William Hazen

eyrie

07-10-2008, 03:39 AM

@Mark,

1. I believe the OP asked about making kotegaeshi work against resistance - which your video, although quite informative, does not directly address.

2. It would be interesting from a discussion perspective if you could comment on what you are doing with uke's force on your wrist.

3. It would also be interesting if you could comment, if you were nage, how/what would you do against you as uke?

TIA

07-10-2008, 05:55 AM

@Mark,

1. I believe the OP asked about making kotegaeshi work against resistance - which your video, although quite informative, does not directly address.

Hi Ignatius,
True. I didn't directly address this point in the original post. But, let me quote a section of that:

The fact is the average person wont know what your about to do...(plus so many factors would be against what they are doing...like punching them in the nose or hitting their hand to loosen up.) ;) it even took them months to figure out to actively fight against kote Gaeshi. I have always went with it, as there is to much danger and getting your wrist dislocated - or the feeling that it will be.

So my point is simple.
When you are going for kotegaeshi, and someones hand is stiff as a board, and the guy is stronger than you...how do you 'break' the stiffness to get the bend needed for kote gaeshi?
Is there a pressure point?

My vid addresses that first quoted paragraph. That you can use structure to "resist" (you aren't really resisting anything. In fact, if you resist, it won't work) kote gaeshi and not get your wrist broken.

But, you are right. I don't directly address the second quoted paragraph. Indirectly, here's my logic thought. Using structure to "resist" a kote gaeshi attempt is much harder than the opposite -- If you have structure and are applying kote gaeshi. So, if you can do the harder part, then switching and making kote gaeshi work against resistance seems easier.

But, skill level plays a very important part. If both people have the same skill level structurally, it's going to be a stale mate, for the most part. Course, not many people have that kind of structure, so until then ... that's something that is fairly irrelevant. And if the jujutsu skills are very good, then that'll overcome someone with only basic structural skills.

2. It would be interesting from a discussion perspective if you could comment on what you are doing with uke's force on your wrist.

That's a great question. It's almost a trick question, even. The simple answer like you'd get from Morpheus or the Oracle is, "There is no force on my wrist." :D

Okay, seriously. If my structure is working properly, there is no force felt on my wrist. None at all. If I find that a specific muscle group tenses (like shoulder area, forearm area, etc), then my wrist does feel force. How much force is felt depends on how much the muscles tense. Some people know that as "relax completely", only it's not really how most people define that phrase.

As for what I'm doing, structurally or internally? Trying to keep the six directions going. Especially when I'm leaning or bending backwards or whatnot. I have to have those going in my body to be a complete unit. If not, then arms or legs or such will have slack in them or in the main joints and that causes specific muscles to fire to try to compensate. That, in turn, leads to force being applied on the wrist, which as everyone knows, hurts.

I'm also allowing all that force that Brain (uke) is putting into his attempts to spiral through my wrist, up my arm, through my shoulder, and down into my lower back. It sort of gets stored there. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but for now, it works.

At the end, when Brian goes for his roll, all I'm doing is sending that stored energy back out to Brian.

3. It would also be interesting if you could comment, if you were nage, how/what would you do against you as uke?

TIA

I'd quit. :)

Seriously, I work with another person, Chris. He's nearly the same skill level that I am. When we both have structure going and we try something like this, it's pretty much a stand still. Whoever can break the other's structure first typically gets into a better position. In our case, it causes the other person to take a step that he didn't want to take. That creates openings. Unfortunately, being nearly the same level, it's very hard to take advantage of those openings. :)

One important thing I'd note, overall, is that 1 year and 3 months ago, I wouldn't have been able to do any of this. This is progress made in just that time frame. And I consider it to be very, very basic structure. But in terms of how that structure is fitting into aikido ... it's making a world of difference.

Mark

07-10-2008, 06:05 AM

Thanks Mark :)

It appeared to be very very basic but I enjoyed seeing you "in action"

William Hazen

Thanks, William. And yes, I consider it to be very, very basic structural stuff.

After watching it again I would love to see what style of Kote Gaeshi you use with resistance both Omote and Ura

At this point, I don't think it matters what style. Then again, this is basic stuff, so my views on that could change later.

In ours there is an Atemi at the pressure point at the back of the jaw

Oh, speaking of atemi. The second vid shows Brian trying to use two atemi. Some people might think that because I'm just standing there (that's on purpose, btw. I just wanted to negate kote gaeshi; I didn't want to engage the attack or uke at all), I'm vulnerable to an atemi. But, having structure doesn't work like that. I'm not clamped down, rigid, and fighting to "resist" kote gaeshi. I'm actually mobile and fluid -- in a basic sense. No where near what I should be, but I'm just a beginner at this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sht2NLy7jvA

and... Voila! Kote Gaeshi. Also unlike the vid Nage keeps everything connected to his center and does not extend his arms and shoulders away from his center trying to "muscle" the wrist

I'm scheduled to be out in San Diego (downtown near the Convention Center) Nov 7th through the 15th. Maybe we can get together sometime while I'm out there?

Mark

07-10-2008, 06:20 AM

Thanks for the video. Good work. At 17-18 you seemed to lose your structure in your neck, but at second 19 you were all lined up again. Great physical recovery!

As far as wristy twisty questions - just curious, was nage covering his thumb with his palm? Did nage have the intention of like punching threw a target on your hand for the wrist crank? Can you try again like that if not? Maybe get him to focus on keeping your wrist above your elbow as well? How about try having nage go omote a bit more to turn your shoulder more forward and down?

I would imagine that you will STILL be able to avoid him ever being able to get your fingers to point to the ground - regardless of the leverage being applied to your wrist by someone who is not using similar structure.

(My opinion is that nage has a better chance if your arm is in front of you - and also nage would need to know how to bring you with the arm using the same structure you were using to resist. But I'm not ready for video to prove this yet.)

Rob

Hi Rob!

Hmmm ... well, let's see.

covering thumb? I don't think he was for most of it. He had a two hand grip with thumbs together, but I think he started out initially with his hand covering his thumb. But, when twisting and moving, I think he switched to thumbs together for better control.

Dunno about the punching through. There were various levels of force coming through. Try again? Probably not until after August. :)

And yeah, if the person isn't using similar structure, then it's hard to use leverage. But, I have no doubts that those more skillful than I in aikido could make kote gaeshi work at this point in time. I just don't have good structure yet.

Chris Parkerson

07-10-2008, 06:31 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sht2NLy7jvA

With all due respect, I am pretty sure I can see the structure you guys are employing.

But your mechanical advantage can use some improvement. Little force can be applied when you are trying to do the work so far away from your center of gravity.

Neither can you make a good technique work by just applying force behind the point of contact.

Ideas for improvement. Try moving your center of gravity (COG) closer to the point of contact and behind uke's center of gravity so that you can push with your whole body rather than just apply force to the wrist. We are talking about improving mechanical advantage here.

Be aware, a COG does travel. If you can get a "float" going, you can track where the COG is moving towards. That is when you get behind it.

Now, if uke tries to "retreat" with his COG, well you need to follow his direction and pick a new angle or new technique.

Just my own ideas. But they do make for a lot less grinding and effort.

Chris Parkerson

07-10-2008, 07:05 AM

I might make another point regarding mechanical advantage. I notice that uke has relaxed to the point that there is no real connection between his humerus/clavicle/scapula. If this connection is not made, you are just twisting his forearm like a "wet rag". Neither can you affect his COG without that connection. Often when the torque is applied to the 20+ bones in the wrist rather than on the radius and ulna, uke can remain disconnected. There is just a lot of play in the wrist.

Here is a series of angles from an old tape of mine. Notice that my first angle assumes I screwed up, uke had retreated his arm as well as his COG, so I have to follow it. The rest of the angles are pretty much KG stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JQhiXRkw4

notice how close I keep my hands in relation to my own COG. Notice how I enter and get close to uke's COG. Can you see how I make his COG "float" through the humerus/clavicle/scapula connection. None of these techniques hurt uke's wrist. He probably did not even feel the wrist being torqued except in #3 angle in the second sequence that was done at speed. That was because I lost the humerus/clavicle/scapula connection and had to "whip" him a bit to regain it. My uke is a 4th dan in Tomiki in the above video. He has some pretty darn good structure.

Now here is another strategy that can undermine uke's structure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS9ghzkz9Lg

Finally, notice how all of these "mechanical advantage" ideas when applied with my personal structure (definitely not as good as it could be) acts out at full speed in KG style movements while on one foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1G3A-ZGd1M

Thanks for the opportunity to share some personal ideas in my own journey...

rob_liberti

07-10-2008, 07:29 AM

2 thumbs together is weaker than covering the thumb with the palm in my experience.

Chris, I agree with you that getting their center of gravity to move with you and the wrist is the way to go for real - and I posted the same sentiment myself. But what I'm confused about is why if you know some level of that kind of structure that you would be arguing leverage at all. Leverage isn't going to get their center of gravity moving with their wrist. You can draw them into your structure from the front or for the outstretched position you can do a "pure" weight transfer to break up their structure a bit and then draw them into your structure. And once that happens you'll have leverage on them, but focusing on the cart before the horse ain't gonna cut it.

Mark, not looking to pick on you, but the second video isn't selling it to me becuase it shows you dumping your center down your front a lot from seconds 9-16. Are you getting a lot of intention across your body to maintain resistance? I can't managae that very well unless I have my spine straighter.

Rob

07-10-2008, 07:53 AM

See this thread for replies regarding structure, etc.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14771

rob_liberti

07-10-2008, 07:55 AM

Chris, in your seond video, second 42, "I come in really low and I rise like cookie doug"??? What did you say?

Rob

Erick Mead

07-10-2008, 08:16 AM

As far as wristy twisty questions - just curious, was nage covering his thumb with his palm? Did nage have the intention of like punching threw a target on your hand for the wrist crank? Can you try again like that if not? Maybe get him to focus on keeping your wrist above your elbow as well? How about try having nage go omote a bit more to turn your shoulder more forward and down?The thing I noted was that at all times nage kept at the same or a slightly reduced radial distance -- i.e. still within uke's "sphere of power" defined by the radial sweep of his arm

Try it with nage departing or turning on the tangent to the radial sweep of your arm, rather than circling at the circumference of that constant (or reducing) radius.

07-10-2008, 08:27 AM

The thing I noted was that at all times nage kept at the same or a slightly reduced radial distance -- i.e. still within uke's "sphere of power" defined by the radial sweep of his arm

Try it with nage departing or turning on the tangent to the radial sweep of your arm, rather than circling at the circumference of that constant (or reducing) radius.

For kote gaeshi with resistance, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to from the vid?

"sphere of power"? At 8 through 11, I'm leaned over, on one foot, hand out to the side. If that's a sphere of power in aikido circles, I've never seen it. :)

At 18, Brian attempts to drive into me and at 19, my arm is fully outstretched and he's trying to go out and down. Plus, my arm is way outside my center of power and to my side. I should have no strength at all, but after 19, notice my recovery and effect it has on Brian. Brian is at least 80 pounds heavier than I am.

Lastly, as I noted to Rob in the split thread I created. This isn't to cover all examples of kote gaeshi and resistance. But it is a starting point to discuss how to functionally resist and how to overcome that resistance.

Mark

Chris Parkerson

07-10-2008, 08:33 AM

Chris, in your seond video, second 42, "I come in really low and I rise like cookie doug"??? What did you say?

Rob

I called the technique Uke Goshi.
In basic judo Uke Goshi (Kano's favorite technique) is done as if you are "stabbing uke's hips with a ice pick that is attached to yours. This creates the kuzushi.

But over time, I learned to apply Kano's sixth kata to the technique. This kata tends not to be studied that closely except in the higher ranks of judoka (IMO). It is the "wave principle" that acts like a "cam". Now my wave principle motion was refined by study of Yanagi Hara Ryu.

I barely pry up the uke (the refrigerator) any more. I just lift it 1/4 inch and then use the corner of the refrigerator as a pivot point with my whole body (structure) pushing from behind.

When a guy hides his COG, you still gotta get behind it to use the best mechanical advantage. You just cannot move a refrigerator with finesse with out (1) closeness of centers and (2) a caming motion.

I do the technique through the natural connection made by uke's retreating arm (and my hold upon the arm) rather than holding Gi lapels as in judo.

It is actually quite soft and surprising to uke when you do it with a small circle.

Adman

07-10-2008, 08:57 AM

Mark,

Thanks for the video. And thanks for this bit (emphasis, mine):

If my structure is working properly, there is no force felt on my wrist. None at all. If I find that a specific muscle group tenses (like shoulder area, forearm area, etc), then my wrist does feel force. How much force is felt depends on how much the muscles tense. Some people know that as "relax completely", only it's not really how most people define that phrase.

As for what I'm doing, structurally or internally? Trying to keep the six directions going. Especially when I'm leaning or bending backwards or whatnot. I have to have those going in my body to be a complete unit. If not, then arms or legs or such will have slack in them or in the main joints and that causes specific muscles to fire to try to compensate. That, in turn, leads to force being applied on the wrist, which as everyone knows, hurts.

I'm also allowing all that force that Brain (uke) is putting into his attempts to spiral through my wrist, up my arm, through my shoulder, and down into my lower back. It sort of gets stored there. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but for now, it works.

It has been written on these forums in various places that the one person wrist exercises should not just be for stretching the local wrist area, but as much of the whole body as possible. However another goal I believe, would be more in line with your quote above. It seems to me that practicing the interplay between nage/uke on yourself (your own wrists) is a good way to train in the response to a "resisting" kotegaeshi.

Thanks,
Adam

Aiki1

07-10-2008, 09:49 AM

ChrisMoses

07-10-2008, 10:10 AM

Man, the guys are gonna give me some #$%^ for this, but this video is already out there and it kind of applies... :drool:

So Jeremy and I did a quick video not long ago really as a part of a conversation with an Aikidoka down in Brazil. About the first 1/2 of this video deals with kotegaeshi, so it might be useful for this discussion.

Some notes to keep in mind while you watch:

- This is a quick informal video...

- I like Kevin's distinction he brought up between cooperation and compliance. While this video is slow and fairly simple, hopefully it's clear that we're cooperating in the way that Kevin outlined. Both Jeremy and I each make some mistakes during this thing, but because we're offering each other solid *reasonable* resistance/feedback, we're able to address those mistakes and learn from them. We're not messing with speed changes, but trying to stay within a consistent tempo (slow).

- In Larry's earlier post he outlined three possible ways to approach a technique like kotegaeshi, I think of the versions presented here to be most like the second (skeletal/commutive lock) but perhaps somewhere between the second and third possibilities he outlined (if I understood him correctly).

- An important note is that in both versions of the kotegaeshi we do here, the critical piece happens before the hand is grasped in a traditional kotegaeshi grip. That is to say that the initial kuzushi and tsukuri are what make the kotegaeshi work rather than a leverage against the joints or bones of the wrist. If you're having trouble making kotegaeshi work against resistance, you should back up and look at how you're getting to kotegaeshi and determine what's going wrong before you try to crank it on. Most likely, the problem is occurring earlier than you think.

- We're a mutt style. There's quite a few credited and uncredited influences in what we're doing here. It should be pretty clear at least where the source for a lot of this stuff is coming from, even to the casual observer. I am not clever enough to have come up with any of it on my own. ;)

- This is not a display of crazy mad internal powah! I consider all of this stuff to be basic structure/strategy. It works better than it used to for me because of the Aunkai influence/practice, but this is not a demonstration of internal skilzz. :p

- Please note the movement of uke's neck and shoulders in the vid. Jer and I aren't hamming the 'snap' up. Hopefully this is clear in the instances where we screw up.

- Finally, **this is a quick informal video...** :crazy:

Against my better judgment, here ya go. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0xD1WJRavA)

Aikibu

07-10-2008, 10:21 AM

Thanks, William. And yes, I consider it to be very, very basic structural stuff.

You're Welcome Mark. :)

At this point, I don't think it matters what style. Then again, this is basic stuff, so my views on that could change later.

Well Hopefully we can get together in November as you suggested below. My birthday is November 11 and it would be a great birthday gift to spend the weekend in San Deigo (SAAAAN DIEEEGO SUUUPER CHARGERS! :D) I can only hope I have a girlfriend to nuture my sore Aiki-Body.

Oh, speaking of atemi. The second vid shows Brian trying to use two atemi. Some people might think that because I'm just standing there (that's on purpose, btw. I just wanted to negate kote gaeshi; I didn't want to engage the attack or uke at all), I'm vulnerable to an atemi. But, having structure doesn't work like that. I'm not clamped down, rigid, and fighting to "resist" kote gaeshi. I'm actually mobile and fluid -- in a basic sense. No where near what I should be, but I'm just a beginner at this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sht2NLy7jvA

Again thanks for the 2nd vid...In both vids you and your partner are very static which is understandable given the basic nature your demonstration So the Atemi I see does nothing really. the footwork and handwork displayed in KG is not close to the way we execute it. Our KG is done with the idea of Nage holding a sword and Uke preventing him/her from cutting. We have variation based on if the sword is already drawn or not. KG is one of those techniques IMO that will never work in a static state Internal Power or not....Uke has to enter with serious intention and move. Otherwise the simple physics of KG will not develop and Nage cannot execute the technique.

I'm scheduled to be out in San Diego (downtown near the Convention Center) Nov 7th through the 15th. Maybe we can get together sometime while I'm out there?

That would be awesome Mark...Perhaps you'll join me in visiting James Williams Dojo too. I have been 'threatening" to visit him since the Aiki-Expo in 2005 LOL I do need to get out there and visit some other folks it's good for the Aikido Soul. :)

Thanks again Mark for putting yourself in the spotlight to provide a baseline for this great thread.

William Hazen

Erick Mead

07-10-2008, 10:24 AM

"sphere of power"? At 8 through 11, I'm leaned over, on one foot, hand out to the side. If that's a sphere of power in aikido circles, I've never seen it. :) Nope. He is still within it and thus you have control (if you have the means to use it -- which you quite obviously have the goods to do).... At 18, Brian attempts to drive into me and at 19, my arm is fully outstretched and he's trying to go out and down. If he drives in (compression) or steps back (tension) you can compensate, and reorienting radially really does little of anything. Taking the tangent is neither wholly tension nor wholly compression but involves a lateral shear at the connection, with both stresses together creating a whole-body torsion -- at the same time as a lateral shift of the CG.

Aikibu

07-10-2008, 10:36 AM

Aiki1

07-10-2008, 10:40 AM

Man, the guys are gonna give me some #$%^ for this, but this video is already out there and it kind of applies... :drool:

Thanks for posting it, I find it Very interesting. I Rarely see Aikido that pays that much attention to actual Kuzushi. Great.

- In Larry's earlier post he outlined three possible ways to approach a technique like kotegaeshi, I think of the versions presented here to be most like the second (skeletal/commutive lock) but perhaps somewhere between the second and third possibilities he outlined (if I understood him correctly).

I think it's closer to the "third way" per se than you may feel. There are solid classical principles here that as I said, I don't usually see.... In my style the dimensions of "internal skills" and Ki come into play a lot, but there are some real similarities here....

- An important note is that in both versions of the kotegaeshi we do here, the critical piece happens before the hand is grasped in a traditional kotegaeshi grip. That is to say that the initial kuzushi and tsukuri are what make the kotegaeshi work rather than a leverage against the joints or bones of the wrist. If you're having trouble making kotegaeshi work against resistance, you should back up and look at how you're getting to kotegaeshi and determine what's going wrong before you try to crank it on. Most likely, the problem is occurring earlier than you think.

Exactly. Well put. This is one of the reasons Aikido isn't about technique, the technique is simply an end result of a more subtle process....

- We're a mutt style. There's quite a few credited and uncredited influences in what we're doing here. It should be pretty clear at least where the source for a lot of this stuff is coming from, even to the casual observer. I am not clever enough to have come up with any of it on my own. ;)

What are your influences? I see some things I've seen from Don Angier.

07-10-2008, 10:43 AM

I'll chime in here too. Thanks for posting the videos, it always gives us something to talk about. :)

From my perspective, virtually everything that Nage does actually supports your structural integrity rather than allowing for kuzushi to occur. In that sense, I would say that there is no kotegaeshi present. That coupled with your own sense of working with whatever forces you feel (a "problem" in the first place, that of discernable feeling) gives you a solid advantage in the interaction.... interesting.

Hi Larry,

Thanks for participating. I'm somewhat confused by part of your post, though. In the vid from 7 to 11, I'm tilted to the side, on one foot, and my hand is outside my center. I'm not seeing your point about how that would support my structural integrity? Granted, I'm doing something internally to keep my structure, but I definitely know that if I had not been doing that, I would have gone down.

In the sense that my "structure" (internal) isn't broken, I'd agree that there was no kuzushi. In the sense that my physical structure wasn't broken, well, I'm on one foot, sideways, with my arm stretched out. :) Can't get any more broken physically than that.

Thanks,
Mark

Aiki1

07-10-2008, 10:44 AM

If that's a sphere of power in aikido circles, I've never seen it

Nope. He is still within it and thus you have control (if you have the means to use it -- which you quite obviously have the goods to do)

I agree. In my approach, working with Uke's sphere of power is basic to understanding tsukuri, resistance, and what we call Kinesthetic Invisibility (although not the only factor in that principle.) If Nage works Within Uke's sphere of power, ain't much going to happen.

07-10-2008, 10:52 AM

Wow...IMO very good basic stuff

Thanks for Sharing Chris!
William Hazen

Gotta agree with that. :)

Mark

ChrisMoses

07-10-2008, 11:07 AM

Thanks for posting it, I find it Very interesting. I Rarely see Aikido that pays that much attention to actual Kuzushi. Great.

Kuzushi is a huge focus of what we do. After you get *real* kuzushi, the rest is much easier. I'm getting better at staying solid through the tsukuri phase (probably where the Aunkai stuff has paid the most dividends for me at this point).

I think it's closer to the "third way" per se than you may feel. There are solid classical principles here that as I said, I don't usually see.... In my style the dimensions of "internal skills" and Ki come into play a lot, but there are some real similarities here....

Again thanks. I didn't want to overstate any similarities to what you were describing. Because this stuff is being done so slowly, I associate it more with the second "way". Applying the same stuff to some movement/intent/timing is what (for me anyway) enables the third "way" you were talking about. I think most Aikido folks either get trapped in the first way you talked about, or try to do the third way without the proper foundational training to actually make it work. In order to make it appear like what they think is happening, they start tanking and then never get the real feedback they need to get where they want to go.

What are your influences? I see some things I've seen from Don Angier.

Well we're not Yanagi Ryu, and I've only trained with Don at the Expos. He did single me out at one point to give me some sage advice however, he told me, "You have all the martial aptitude of a damp kitchen sponge..." Ah, Don, he has such a way with words. :rolleyes: But my teacher (Neil) while never a formal student of Don's was able to spend a good amount of time down in SoCal with him. I really do have to be clear however that we're not Yanagi-ryu. Johnny and Rich have also been very generous with information in the *very* limited amount of mat time I've had with them. That said, I don't know any of the Yanagi Ryu kata, and our curriculum is distinct. I don't talk up the connection much because I don't want to overstate the influence or connection. I'd rather what I'm doing stand on its own. :)

Aiki1

07-10-2008, 11:14 AM

Hi Larry,

Thanks for participating. I'm somewhat confused by part of your post, though. In the vid from 7 to 11, I'm tilted to the side, on one foot, and my hand is outside my center. I'm not seeing your point about how that would support my structural integrity? Granted, I'm doing something internally to keep my structure, but I definitely know that if I had not been doing that, I would have gone down.

In the sense that my "structure" (internal) isn't broken, I'd agree that there was no kuzushi. In the sense that my physical structure wasn't broken, well, I'm on one foot, sideways, with my arm stretched out. :) Can't get any more broken physically than that.

Thanks,
Mark

Hi Mark - I hope you didn't take anything I said as a criticism, it wasn't at all, you've got skills and it's great to see your approach.

I see what you're saying - I guess what I'd say is, if at that point you were only able to keep your balance because of your internal skill, then you're right. To my eye, Nage seems to be "supportive" in a physical way and at a deeper level, in my experience that can happen sometimes even when it looks like they're trying to get you to lose your balance.... I see your point though.

ChrisMoses

07-10-2008, 11:15 AM

Wow...IMO very good basic stuff and actually Chris your KG is very close to how we approach it. Everything connected to center, position, use of the elbow, Irimi, about the only thing we do defferent is washing the arm and leading the fingers by cutting with Ukes Arm rather than pushing down on the arm...

Thanks William. I'm fairly familiar with the Nishio line's basics. I got my shodan from Seikikai Aikido whose founder (Kurita Minouru) based a lot of his own aiki-weapons on the time he spent studying with Nishio Sensei. It's the only other style I've seen that had the kind of focus on riai, or matching the paired weapons work to a parallel open hand movement that you see in Nishio Sensei's line. It's a good observation that our stuff has less emphasis on a cutting mechanic, it's much more of a striking mechanic.

Ron Tisdale

07-10-2008, 11:22 AM

Nice thread, thanks for the vids. Not much to add,

Best,
Ron

07-10-2008, 11:30 AM

Hi Mark - I hope you didn't take anything I said as a criticism, it wasn't at all, you've got skills and it's great to see your approach.

I see what you're saying - I guess what I'd say is, if at that point you were only able to keep your balance because of your internal skill, then you're right. To my eye, Nage seems to be "supportive" in a physical way and at a deeper level, in my experience that can happen sometimes even when it looks like they're trying to get you to lose your balance.... I see your point though.

Hi Larry,
No, didn't take it that way at all. I was just confused by your post and thought it worth getting some clarification. :) Anything to help make us all better is worth looking into.

Hmmm ... I'll have to view the vid again. It's really hard to capture any kind of essence on video. And I understand what you are saying now.

But, Brian was putting in a decent amount of force trying to take me down. At times, when he shifted positions, he did lose some of the force, though not a lot. Even at the end, he was still trying to take me outwards and downwards at an angle away from me. Without using the "structure", I would have gone down. Again, it's hard to convey in video. But, at least it was enough to get some interesting conversation going. Thanks for that!

And like I mentioned to William, I should be in San Diego in November. If anyone wants to get together, I'd be up for it. It's a work trip ... but I'm sure I'll still have evenings free sometime.

Mark

Pauliina Lievonen

07-10-2008, 12:05 PM

But, Brian was putting in a decent amount of force trying to take me down. At times, when he shifted positions, he did lose some of the force, though not a lot. I know you posted the video more to show what you were doing as uke. But my first thought when I was watching was also that the way tori was putting in force was also helping you to ground (or something, I don't know what I should call it). For the rest, nice video. Thanks for letting us see it!

kvaak
Pauliina

Aiki1

07-10-2008, 03:01 PM

I think most Aikido folks either get trapped in the first way you talked about, or try to do the third way without the proper foundational training to actually make it work. In order to make it appear like what they think is happening, they start tanking and then never get the real feedback they need to get where they want to go.

AMEN to that.

Aiki1

07-10-2008, 03:05 PM

....But my first thought when I was watching was also that the way tori was putting in force was also helping you to ground

That's what I was trying to say. :)

In my experience, in the application of force which is intended to "drop" a person, sometimes it actually grounds them, especially if the connection to center isn't.... solid, or whatever, i.e., it's more peripheral.

Kevin Leavitt

07-10-2008, 04:30 PM

Again, thanks for posting the vids and discussing them. It is most helpful in the communication process! Nothing to add right now.

07-10-2008, 05:00 PM

That's what I was trying to say. :)

In my experience, in the application of force which is intended to "drop" a person, sometimes it actually grounds them, especially if the connection to center isn't.... solid, or whatever, i.e., it's more peripheral.

Yeah, after your reply, I understood that. I've experienced that, but never even thought about it when video taping. And after reviewing the vid, I can see where it could look like that. It didn't happen, though.

For the vid, Brian was trying to either drop me in a hole out from my pinky toe or the triangular point behind my feet. Dunno if you can see that from the vid.

Mark

Chris Parkerson

07-10-2008, 08:13 PM

Yeah, after your reply, I understood that. I've experienced that, but never even thought about it when video taping. And after reviewing the vid, I can see where it could look like that. It didn't happen, though.

For the vid, Brian was trying to either drop me in a hole out from my pinky toe or the triangular point behind my feet. Dunno if you can see that from the vid.

Mark

You might consider this...
The pinky toe hole is not there unless the COG has traveled in that direction. In the video, even though he is on one foot, his COG is well protected (structure). That is simply great work on his part.

The other triangulation hole to the rear was not there either.
Even on one foot, you can create a "potential base" that covers many of the throwing angles and holes on both sides of the body.
Perhaps this is the result of what you are calling the "six directions"? Not an exclusive concept but a really good one.

jennifer paige smith

07-10-2008, 08:53 PM

Yeah, after your reply, I understood that. I've experienced that, but never even thought about it when video taping. And after reviewing the vid, I can see where it could look like that. It didn't happen, though.

For the vid, Brian was trying to either drop me in a hole out from my pinky toe or the triangular point behind my feet. Dunno if you can see that from the vid.

Mark

I Can see that. My impression of Nage is that he is focusing on you, not on his center or movements,therefore giving you top dog position, rather than moving on a line to the point where he should go; with or without your approval.
He isn't moving concisely/independently within principles and lines.

In couch psychology jargon;" it's appears a little co-dependent".

Allen Beebe

07-10-2008, 09:20 PM

Well, I've got something to add!

Chris and Jeremy, they're not Yanagi guys but they play them on TV . . .

OK, I'll shut up . . . sorry . . . not really though . . . :p

Chris Parkerson

07-10-2008, 09:46 PM

Well, I've got something to add!

Chris and Jeremy, they're not Yanagi guys but they play them on TV . . .

OK, I'll shut up . . . sorry . . . not really though . . . :p

in the Yanagi clans I think only John Clodig wears the black "Darth Vader" Gi.

Ok, Its late and I'm getting goofy too.

eyrie

07-10-2008, 11:50 PM

@Mark,

Thanks for your reply. I generally agree with what you said, but I wanted to highlight this bit as it pertains to the topic at hand.

When we both have structure going and we try something like this, it's pretty much a stand still. Whoever can break the other's structure first typically gets into a better position. In our case, it causes the other person to take a step that he didn't want to take. That creates openings. Unfortunately, being nearly the same level, it's very hard to take advantage of those openings. I think this is fundamental, and possibly, the most overlooked aspect of any martial art. It's never about the technique, although the "how to make it work" does involve some "technique" - if that makes sense. The 2 basic premises of any given "technique", I believe which should be reinforced are: (1) maintain your own structure while (2) attempting to break the other person's structure.

Chris' very excellent video (last technique), when he didn't botch it, is a clear example of both - the slight body drift being sufficient to draw Jeremy off-balance. Obviously, trying to do (1) & (2) whilst under pressure and in a dynamic format is difficult.....

One important thing I'd note, overall, is that 1 year and 3 months ago, I wouldn't have been able to do any of this. This is progress made in just that time frame. And I consider it to be very, very basic structure. But in terms of how that structure is fitting into aikido ... it's making a world of difference.
and...
For the vid, Brian was trying to either drop me in a hole out from my pinky toe or the triangular point behind my feet. Dunno if you can see that from the vid. Can you perhaps elucidate more on how you are negating this, and in light of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veyp1dl99Bw&feature=related), how you are able to negate/minimize the inherent structural weaknesses of one's physiology?

07-11-2008, 07:32 AM

I Can see that. My impression of Nage is that he is focusing on you, not on his center or movements,therefore giving you top dog position, rather than moving on a line to the point where he should go; with or without your approval.
He isn't moving concisely/independently within principles and lines.

In couch psychology jargon;" it's appears a little co-dependent".

Hi Jennifer,

One of the reasons why it seems that he isn't moving or focusing like that is because of my structure. It's a little hard to do. Take a look at this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVCZf53XIE0

Brian is pushing but not really getting anywhere. If you apply that concept to the kote gaeshi attempt, you can see that even though he's trying to move or focus correctly, it really isn't working and he's having to continually readjust because of my structure. And that's the part where video can not show anything. At that point, it has to be felt. :)

Thanks,
Mark

Mark Jakabcsin

07-11-2008, 07:40 AM

So my point is simple.
When you are going for kotegaeshi, and someones hand is stiff as a board, and the guy is stronger than you...how do you 'break' the stiffness to get the bend needed for kote gaeshi?
Is there a pressure point?

Sorry to come to this party late. Perhaps someone else has already given similar feedback, there are far to many posts to catch up now, so I will do a 'driveby' post.

Dalen,
When doing Japanese style joint locks two of the primary things to consider are posture and balance.....for both uke and tori. Tori has the greatest chance of success when applying a joint lock that correctly matches the posture and balance of uke while maintaining his own solid posture and balance. So, so, so often we see tori's that attempt to disturb or break uke's posture and balance via the joint lock itself. Frankly this is wrong. The joint lock exploits uke's posture/balance which is disturbed via the setup of the technique or uke's own movement.

When one thinks this way in randori techniques start to 'just happen' as tori stops trying to impose his will on uke and simply takes advantage to the opportunities that uke is presenting. Apply a joint lock that works best off of a rear posture disturbance when uke's posture is to the rear and BAM it works easily. Apply a joint lock that works best off of a forward posture disturbance when uke is forward and 'OUCH'....'BAM'. The reverse is also true. Apply a joint lock that works best on rear posture disturbance when uke's posture is forward and now you wrestle. Sure you can try hitting him in the nose to change the posture, that may or may not work, the point being that if you have to do this after you attempt the lock it is a clear indication that the set up and technique selection did not match the reality of uke's posture/balance.

As for putting the hand in the correct position remember that 'kote' means forearm and that this technique comes from old battlefield techniques where the opponents wore armor. Hence they did not turn the wrist, they turned the forearm. FYI, when a warrior on the field was reduced to attempting such a thing he was not having a good day as he was probably weaponless and about to die.

From a learning perspective it is important to understand that kote gaeshi is effective because of the rotation of the forearm in relation to the body and the body’s current posture. Stand straight and simulate losing your balance backwards. How do you attempt to recover/regain your balance? Initially how do your arms windmill? What is the position of the forearm in relation to the body? Now do the same but losing and struggling to maintain posture/balance forward. What is the position of the forearm in relation to the body? Now compare these positions to joint locks.

Take care,

Mark J.

07-11-2008, 08:17 AM

I think this is fundamental, and possibly, the most overlooked aspect of any martial art. It's never about the technique, although the "how to make it work" does involve some "technique" - if that makes sense. The 2 basic premises of any given "technique", I believe which should be reinforced are: (1) maintain your own structure while (2) attempting to break the other person's structure.

Chris' very excellent video (last technique), when he didn't botch it, is a clear example of both - the slight body drift being sufficient to draw Jeremy off-balance. Obviously, trying to do (1) & (2) whilst under pressure and in a dynamic format is difficult.....

Yeah, and that last part is very true. Under pressure and in dynamic is very difficult. :)

and...
Can you perhaps elucidate more on how you are negating this, and in light of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veyp1dl99Bw&feature=related), how you are able to negate/minimize the inherent structural weaknesses of one's physiology?

Don Angier's explanation at the beginning of the vid touches on kote gaeshi going into uke and triangulating it.

Well, if you look at the first vid I posted, about 17-18, Brian tries to do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXp_sl2VXTk

The reason it doesn't work as nicely as Don Angier's demonstration is because:

1. Don Angier is demonstrating. Uke isn't trying to mess that up. :)

2. I'm trying to stay as off balance, physically, as I can to illustrate the concept. So, my forearm isn't parallel because I'm bent over.

3. Brian hits my structure and gets redirected (not what he wanted to do) outwards. So, at 20, he's still trying to get kote gaeshi, only out over my pinky toe.

The interesting thing is that I'm leaned over and my body isn't in a nice line from head to left foot. I'm broken and shouldn't have a lot of power. My arm is outstretched. Again, shouldn't have much power. And my arm is out to my side. Shouldn't have much power. In aikido, we always want a correct posture with hands in front of our center for "power". Brian is torquing out and downwards. And Brian outweighs me by about 80 pounds.

Yet, Brian gets popped forward so much that he's forced to roll out of it. And notice my hand at about 22. It pretty much drops to my side. It wasn't muscle that drove the movement. Surprised me as much as Brian, I think. :)

Mark

jennifer paige smith

07-11-2008, 09:46 AM

Hi Jennifer,

One of the reasons why it seems that he isn't moving or focusing like that is because of my structure. It's a little hard to do. Take a look at this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVCZf53XIE0

Brian is pushing but not really getting anywhere. If you apply that concept to the kote gaeshi attempt, you can see that even though he's trying to move or focus correctly, it really isn't working and he's having to continually readjust because of my structure. And that's the part where video can not show anything. At that point, it has to be felt. :)

Thanks,
Mark

Thanks for the explanation and the video ( sorry i forgot to say thanks B4 ). I accept that it has to be felt .I know how much Video leaves to be desired in terms of capturing essence and how much it puts you out there. I respect you for posting it( plus I now know what you look like. how fun)

From the 'west coast style';) Strictly visually, based on what I see: What I would suggest to my students, if I was correcting for the future, would be for nage to collapse your hand inward, rather than push, and move uprightly to the 3rd point while drawing toward himself.Then his posture wouldn't be so 'giving'. A funny skill to play with, take it or leave it, when operating the pinky toe, exploit the pinky finger in the KG spiral of the hand).

Psychologically, his eyes are checking back in with you, too, which compromises his alignment.

Like you said, it's best to feel this stuff personally,( but is sure fun to talk about )and it looks like you'd be a fun training date. I look forward to checking out your stuff someday in person.

Thanks Again,
Jen

ChrisMoses

07-11-2008, 09:49 AM

in the Yanagi clans I think only John Clodig wears the black "Darth Vader" Gi.

Ok, Its late and I'm getting goofy too.

No, Rich Elias has frequently been seen in a fetching black ensemble...

And Jer and I are wearing a deep indigo. Both color choices are very slimming, and I need all the slimming I can get.

...that is all...

jennifer paige smith

07-11-2008, 10:01 AM

Not to come empty-handed, as it were, here is a really great autobiographical article by Don Angier.
http://www.bugei.com/angier.html

so much to learn.......

Chris Parkerson

07-11-2008, 10:02 AM

No, Rich Elias has frequently been seen in a fetching black ensemble...

And Jer and I are wearing a deep indigo. Both color choices are very slimming, and I need all the slimming I can get.

...that is all...

I thought the Yoshida-ha guys wore black and gray.

Anyhoose, you look "styling" and I enjoyed your movement...

An amalgum of many principles used well in kata.

Question, "do you make the movements smaller or change the sequence when in rondori?

Aikibu

07-11-2008, 10:26 AM

Sorry to come to this party late. Perhaps someone else has already given similar feedback, there are far to many posts to catch up now, so I will do a 'driveby' post.

Dalen,
When doing Japanese style joint locks two of the primary things to consider are posture and balance.....for both uke and tori. Tori has the greatest chance of success when applying a joint lock that correctly matches the posture and balance of uke while maintaining his own solid posture and balance. So, so, so often we see tori's that attempt to disturb or break uke's posture and balance via the joint lock itself. Frankly this is wrong. The joint lock exploits uke's posture/balance which is disturbed via the setup of the technique or uke's own movement.

When one thinks this way in randori techniques start to 'just happen' as tori stops trying to impose his will on uke and simply takes advantage to the opportunities that uke is presenting. Apply a joint lock that works best off of a rear posture disturbance when uke's posture is to the rear and BAM it works easily. Apply a joint lock that works best off of a forward posture disturbance when uke is forward and 'OUCH'....'BAM'. The reverse is also true. Apply a joint lock that works best on rear posture disturbance when uke's posture is forward and now you wrestle. Sure you can try hitting him in the nose to change the posture, that may or may not work, the point being that if you have to do this after you attempt the lock it is a clear indication that the set up and technique selection did not match the reality of uke's posture/balance.

As for putting the hand in the correct position remember that 'kote' means forearm and that this technique comes from old battlefield techniques where the opponents wore armor. Hence they did not turn the wrist, they turned the forearm. FYI, when a warrior on the field was reduced to attempting such a thing he was not having a good day as he was probably weaponless and about to die.

From a learning perspective it is important to understand that kote gaeshi is effective because of the rotation of the forearm in relation to the body and the body's current posture. Stand straight and simulate losing your balance backwards. How do you attempt to recover/regain your balance? Initially how do your arms windmill? What is the position of the forearm in relation to the body? Now do the same but losing and struggling to maintain posture/balance forward. What is the position of the forearm in relation to the body? Now compare these positions to joint locks.

Take care,

Mark J.

Thanks Mark. The "technical" key for us is not the wrist. It is position note that both Chris and Don A enter letting Uke's fist pass their center while connecting with his center.

We don't stop the tsuki at all... it passes... There is an Atemi (if needed) to unbalance... a connection, and then a wash of the arm.

A key difference is that

Nage does not grab per se and certainly does not "reach over Uke's arm to grab the wrist (unless you want Uke to reverse the technique on you) . And like you mention and Chris shows you float your center out just a bit...Simultaneously putting an out twist to Uke's forearm ( with a similar feel to drawing your sword) keeping pressure on Uke's elbow. For KG you MUST have control of Uke's elbow and forearm and just his wrist per se. If done properly Uke "follows his fingers" and his body weight centers on his wrist/forearm... Wiith a slight turn of your hips his "structure" ceases to be and Uke will drop himself. When done properly it's Uke's own weight plus momentum that makes KG work. I am just there to help him fall. :D

Thanks again for the post. :)

William Hazen

ChrisMoses

07-11-2008, 10:43 AM

Question, "do you make the movements smaller or change the sequence when in rondori?

Yeah, everything in that video is principle based teaching drill stuff. It's all much more flexible in a less structured training environment. I don't intentionally mess with the sequence much however.

07-11-2008, 10:58 AM

I know how much Video leaves to be desired in terms of capturing essence and how much it puts you out there. I respect you for posting it( plus I now know what you look like. how fun)

Yeah, but I accept that what I know now isn't what I will know in the future. So, when I look back to things I've done/said/videotaped, I naturally go, Ack-I can't believe I did that. But logic takes over and says, well, it's what you knew at the time. If you'd known any different, you'd have done something else. :)

Plus, with my posting and such being fairly often, it's nice for people to see who they're conversing with. Now, everyone can use a still picture to scare all the rats away. :yuck:

Like you said, it's best to feel this stuff personally,( but is sure fun to talk about )and it looks like you'd be a fun training date. I look forward to checking out your stuff someday in person.

Thanks Again,
Jen

I'll post a disclaimer. I'm way new at this stuff and don't have a near enough structure to give a good demonstration. Give me another year, I think, and I might be near enough for a decent demonstration. But, if I'm in the area, I'm definitely up for meeting, talking, and showing what I do know. :) That goes for anyone.

07-11-2008, 10:59 AM

Chris Parkerson

07-11-2008, 12:22 PM

Yeah, but I accept that what I know now isn't what I will know in the future. So, when I look back to things I've done/said/videotaped, I naturally go, Ack-I can't believe I did that. But logic takes over and says, well, it's what you knew at the time. If you'd known any different, you'd have done something else. :)

Plus, with my posting and such being fairly often, it's nice for people to see who they're conversing with. Now, everyone can use a still picture to scare all the rats away. :yuck:

I'll post a disclaimer. I'm way new at this stuff and don't have a near enough structure to give a good demonstration. Give me another year, I think, and I might be near enough for a decent demonstration. But, if I'm in the area, I'm definitely up for meeting, talking, and showing what I do know. :) That goes for anyone.

Go you Mark,

Now that is genuine dialogue. Have you been reading Rumi or conjuring his spirit in the ether?

"Keeping it real" is so refreshing and liberating as well.

I love your courage and support it wholly. If you want, I would be happy to be your "control group" in your experiments with structure.

You and I can visit two or three times a year. Since I am about peaked with structure for this lifetime, you can guage your progress by my baseline standard.

Interested? Mutual support from a source outside the test group.

07-11-2008, 12:45 PM

Hi Chris,
I'm up for meeting. You can't be all that far if you're in Ohio. What city/town are you located?

Mark

jennifer paige smith

07-11-2008, 12:49 PM

I'll post a disclaimer. I'm way new at this stuff and don't have a near enough structure to give a good demonstration. Give me another year, I think, and I might be near enough for a decent demonstration. But, if I'm in the area, I'm definitely up for meeting, talking, and showing what I do know. :) That goes for anyone.

Thank You Very Much So Mr. Roboto....Domo,Domo:)

And if you need a crash-test-dummy, well, you know who to call ( a hint: the answer isn't Ghost Busters:D ).

Chris Parkerson

07-11-2008, 01:09 PM

Hi Chris,
I'm up for meeting. You can't be all that far if you're in Ohio. What city/town are you located?

Mark

Baltimore, Ohio
Just a few miles east of Columbus.
If you want to come to the Hal seminar, I'll put you up at my house and we can make it a weekend.

dalen7

07-11-2008, 03:29 PM

Well, this thread has indeed been helpful.

I will say that against bigger/stronger people that want to be stubborn it can still be a challenge without hurting them. :)

I know that with a little atemi (that we do with gyaku hanmi) it helps to break it up a bit.

But the same guy that inspired me to write this thread trained with me today and resisted through every move. (A bit stronger than I am.)

Not that this is a problem really - good to see different slants on things...but as someone mentioned, in real life you would switch techniques and use atemi, etc.

On another note:

Im testing next week during our 2nd seminar to be held in our small city here in Hungary.
If its like last year then we will have some high ranking senseis there.
(I believe Sensei Imre Marton is now 5th dan...could be wrong... and Sensei Janos, if he comes, I believe is 4th dan. Sempai (not sure why she is not called a sensei) Aniko is either 2nd or 3rd dan now, and my Sensei got his promotion in April to 1st....so a nice group of black belts which you dont see often in this neck of the woods.) :)

Actually feel pretty good about my progress and feel that Im ready for the test.
As you can tell Im pretty excited...for the most part none of you will recognize any of these names.
(Though Im sure there are a few Hungarian lurkers to shy to come out on the forums here.) :)

Anyway...

Peace

dAlen

Mato-san

07-18-2008, 10:24 AM

Okay, so I decided to play around some with kote gaeshi. Nothing spectacular. But I video taped it and put it on YouTube. (Actually, there's two vids but the other one is still uploading).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXp_sl2VXTk

So, in this vid, we start from static, but I purposefully put myself off balance and I try to stay that way while nage (Brian) tries to complete kote gaeshi in some manner by moving around me.

Brian is putting a good bit into trying to take me down, but not going as far as jumping on my outstretched hand. :)
At the end, I sort of just uncoiled the internal energy and it caused Brian to take a forward roll -- something neither of us had expected to happen.

Anyway, enjoy my video debut. :)

Mark

Nice vid Mark... very different kotegaeshi than the one I am used too. You make good points though about kotegaeshi and how not to do it. The waza I am used too is practiced in the kaiso/kaisho or gyoso/gyosho (standing hands on no speed or momentum) like you guys where playing with, but the ki is working toward the tatame straight down fully committed and the kotegaeshi rolling straight back into the fist itself (not outside), stretching the tendons in the backside of the hand and going directly down and not outside the sphere of the confrontations realm. Then with momentum from uke (shoso/sosho) it becomes the bigger showy kotegaeshi that requires a breakfall and angles and a less aiki devoted application (just distance,timing and use of uke`s momentum). Not sure how others work but we generally practice the kaisho and move on to the shoso/sosho.

07-18-2008, 06:44 PM

Nice vid Mark...

Thanks!

very different kotegaeshi than the one I am used too.

Well, it really isn't a "technique" in any sense of the word. It's more just playing around with structure and trying to show that even if you are off balance, internal structure is very strong.

If you think about that, then if someone is relying on uke overbalance themselves to make a technique work ... well, that won't work with someone who has internal structure. Besides the fact that they won't be unbalanced anyway.

And if you're trying to drop weight into someone or drop them into their "hole", then if they have structure, it probably isn't going to work. Depending on how good their internal structure is, of course.

You make good points though about kotegaeshi and how not to do it. The waza I am used too is practiced in the kaiso/kaisho or gyoso/gyosho (standing hands on no speed or momentum) like you guys where playing with, but the ki is working toward the tatame straight down fully committed and the kotegaeshi rolling straight back into the fist itself (not outside), stretching the tendons in the backside of the hand and going directly down and not outside the sphere of the confrontations realm. Then with momentum from uke (shoso/sosho) it becomes the bigger showy kotegaeshi that requires a breakfall and angles and a less aiki devoted application (just distance,timing and use of uke`s momentum). Not sure how others work but we generally practice the kaisho and move on to the shoso/sosho.

If I get a chance, I'll play around with that. But, really, it won't work at all if you have good internal structure.

Mark

dalen7

07-19-2008, 07:21 AM

Well now it seems I have a way to get Kote Gaeshi to work. ;)
(Of course good technique is the basic to this)

We are in the midst of our seminar here, as Im writing this, and our Sensei (4th dan) teaches Kote GAeshi this way.

(Gyaku Hami) - left hand goes up and strikes uke in the face, comes down and strikes back of wrist...the hand now free slides up to hit uke in the face and slides back down to grab ukes wrist and then kote gaeshi.

I take it, from what I have seen in the seminar (2nd year, but now I can pay attention to other details now that Im not a fresh beginner) it seems that each move is heavy atemi to ensure uke goes down and that you can have an opportunity to execute the moves.

From what I have read Im sure this would be frowned upon by some here who would rely just on technique or say that technique must not be done properly to use so much atemi.

But here, Sensei knows his stuff...its just the way he goes about teaching Aikido.

It truly is diverse (this sport) in ways that people teach and train.
Cool to learn what others do in their system.

Peace

dAlen

...off to take my test in a few mintues. :)

Kevin Leavitt

07-19-2008, 08:25 AM

Matthew wrote:

The waza I am used too is practiced in the kaiso/kaisho or gyoso/gyosho (standing hands on no speed or momentum) like you guys where playing with, but the ki is working toward the tatame straight down fully committed and the kotegaeshi rolling straight back into the fist itself (not outside), stretching the tendons in the backside of the hand and going directly down and not outside the sphere of the confrontations realm.

Hi Matthew,

No expert, but I actually CAN on occassion demonstrate that does not always work with someone that has decent structure.

Again, it is all about timing, speed, power, and assumptions about where we are in the process of doing this, so please keep that in mind. These are things we cannot adequately address here as we each have a different perspective maybe about what is going on.

That said, if someone has good structure, you could STAND on top of the hand pushing down as hard as you want to. I will even let you readjust however you wish to, and you are STILL not going to get it to work. Actually this way (if I am envisioning what your talking about correctly) is much, much more easy to resist as you end up pushing down into my core even much more. The result is that you get up rooted more and more the harder you push down. So you never can really get there.

The result is usually you abandon this quickly and start training to work it on extension or moving in a different plane, much like Mark demonstrates.

Keep in mind this is simply a demo point on a small principle and NOT martial at this point.

If it where you would figure it out pretty darn quickly and move on to some other means to establish kuzushi.

Does not mean the KG does not work, it just means you have more work cut out for you to get underneath uke's center so you can uproot him to do the technique.

After you have felt this a few times you begin to realize that KG is not about pushing or pulling on the wrist/arm, but about the structure and getting underneath uke's structure and "floating" him (uproot) and establishing kuzushi in a differnt means that torquing on the arm/wrist combo.

Kevin Leavitt

07-19-2008, 08:28 AM

Dalen,

I understand what you are talking about, I think it is quite appropriate to do KG that way. The strike establishes kuzushi (assuming that the intent of the strike is to upset the body structure/core). therefore, allowing you to move on to using the arm/wrist as a transmitter to access the rest of the core and complete the ukemi.

07-19-2008, 08:32 AM

Matthew wrote:

Hi Matthew,

No expert, but I actually CAN on occassion demonstrate that does not always work with someone that has decent structure.

Again, it is all about timing, speed, power, and assumptions about where we are in the process of doing this, so please keep that in mind. These are things we cannot adequately address here as we each have a different perspective maybe about what is going on.

That said, if someone has good structure, you could STAND on top of the hand pushing down as hard as you want to. I will even let you readjust however you wish to, and you are STILL not going to get it to work. Actually this way (if I am envisioning what your talking about correctly) is much, much more easy to resist as you end up pushing down into my core even much more. The result is that you get up rooted more and more the harder you push down. So you never can really get there.

The result is usually you abandon this quickly and start training to work it on extension or moving in a different plane, much like Mark demonstrates.

Keep in mind this is simply a demo point on a small principle and NOT martial at this point.

If it where you would figure it out pretty darn quickly and move on to some other means to establish kuzushi.

Does not mean the KG does not work, it just means you have more work cut out for you to get underneath uke's center so you can uproot him to do the technique.

After you have felt this a few times you begin to realize that KG is not about pushing or pulling on the wrist/arm, but about the structure and getting underneath uke's structure and "floating" him (uproot) and establishing kuzushi in a differnt means that torquing on the arm/wrist combo.

Hi Kevin,

Great post! Thanks!

Mark

eyrie

07-19-2008, 07:15 PM

...our Sensei (4th dan) teaches Kote GAeshi this way. Another way of looking at it is that your sensei is merely showing "basic technique"... embellished by supposedly "martial applications of (overt) atemi waza"... which is crap IMO.

Before anyone gets too defensive... let me clarify. I primarily teach kids. And one of the things I won't do is teach them how to punch or kick another person... lest they try it out on some other kids in the playground.

Sure, atemi can be used to "soften" up uke. But there really is no need for the overt atemi... IF one is shown how to move their feet and body into the right position, how to release the wrist, how to create kuzushi and how to drop weight into the kuzushi point. *Sometimes* I may show a simple metsubushi combined with a wrist release, but the focus is on teaching the child how to extricate themselves from a sticky situation by using far more subtle means.

Besides, it looks far more impressive (to the other kids) when a bully simply falls over and doesn't know how they got there... and they can't turn around and say they got punched and thrown - or worse... having to explain how their wrist got broken. ;)

dalen7

07-19-2008, 11:11 PM

Another way of looking at it is that your sensei is merely showing "basic technique"... embellished by supposedly "martial applications of (overt) atemi waza"... which is crap IMO.

Before anyone gets too defensive... let me clarify.

I dont take any offense. ;)

Now I have no doubt he has mastered the Aikido movements - the steps - and gone beyond basic...but you are correct, I would say, in your observation that it may seem overboard with the atemi.

From where Im at I can see both sides of the fence on this.
Depending on where your at, both sides are true.

Most definitely do NOT want kids hitting each other.

From my end - Im taking from Aikido this point: Dont even get in the fight.

On a sport end on who wins what, big ego contest, then the above comes in handy to say, "depends on person and what they mix with aikido...as well as the situation, which is primary."

One thing I will say is that if your dealing with a large guy - atemi probably is necessary to offset him.

And I really think this is why our sensei teaches us this way.
Its training so that this option is natural if you are in a tight spot where your 70 kilos and your opponent is 100 kilos or more...and talented at that. (Again, given the situation you will need more than just aikido - but again I will go further to say again, how could you have stayed out of the fight.)

Anyway...I have pics from the seminar over at flickr...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dalen7/

Peace

dAlen

eyrie

07-20-2008, 02:49 AM

One thing I will say is that if your dealing with a large guy - atemi probably is necessary to offset him.
Quickest way to piss someone off... especially someone larger than you... ;)

There are ways and means to manipulate a "large guy", without having to atemi... I've had 8yr olds throw guys outweighing them by 120kg... without having to throw a punch.

We had a cop (ex. Yoshinkan), big guy... 6ft/130kg, turn up one time and, even though he was twice my weight, I was able to quite effortlessly put a sankyo on him and throw him half way across the hall.... When he picked himself up off the floor, the first thing he said was... "How the @#%^! did you do that???".

Atemi is useful to know, but relying on it to make a technique work is poor technique.

Mato-san

07-20-2008, 06:31 AM

Thanks!

If I get a chance, I'll play around with that. But, really, it won't work at all if you have good internal structure.

Mark

Basically the kihon waza is relax shoulders and entire body and go through uke`s fist (in the tatame direction, you know gravity works) no application of pain/tech or anything just Aiki. After that go the same route, but apply the roll back into the fist stretch tendons thing and get a real life kotegaeshi. I don`t care how internally strong you are or physically strong, if you do kotegaeshi correctly it will drop any over confident individual (good base or weak base). It is one of the most effective waza in the book. And I am not an expert but I will back that call.

Mato-san

07-20-2008, 06:57 AM

Matthew wrote:

That said, if someone has good structure, you could STAND on top of the hand pushing down as hard as you want to. I will even let you readjust however you wish to, and you are STILL not going to get it to work. Actually this way (if I am envisioning what your talking about correctly) is much, much more easy to resist as you end up pushing down into my core even much more. The result is that you get up rooted more and more the harder you push down. So you never can really get there.

Hi Kevin
Not sure we are on the same page, but sure I understand what you say. No push or pull is gonna make this work...hell yeah, particularly if uke is well grounded. But Aikido will work if executed correctly from a standing, no momentum (any words you want to call it) practice situation , I would call it raw technique but thats my words,I have never seen or met an individual capable of putting Aikido into words. Like those scratch and sniff stickers...Aikido is feel an know...lol.

Chris Parkerson

07-20-2008, 07:07 AM

Push "from behind" vice "float"
"soft energy" vice "mechanical advantage"

perhaps words are getting in the way.

:)

Mato-san

07-20-2008, 07:24 AM

Yes words are cheap

dalen7

07-21-2008, 01:13 AM

Quickest way to piss someone off... especially someone larger than you... ;)

Atemi is useful to know, but relying on it to make a technique work is poor technique.

- your right it probably will piss him off, but remember in a real situation he is already pissed off. ;)

- therefore you are not relying on atemi...its just an 'extra' to 'make sure'. Its not depended on, but a support as back up - I suppose that is what my sensei would say. (Trust me, his technique is not poor at all, just a different philosophy on things. And again, since they speak Hungarian Im not able to nicely translate the exact details of the whys and why nots - except for what I already did.)

Again, I respect the fact that people do not want to rely on atemi as it is seen as either not needed or showing weak technique.

But I would say that in the case of my sensei its given as an option to practice so you can fluidly make the choice in any given situation...not to rely upon, and the emphasis is always on good technique. :)

Peace

dAlen

ChrisMoses

07-22-2008, 08:57 AM

Atemi is useful to know, but relying on it to make a technique work is poor technique.

Bingo. Besides, atemi is most effective after you have kuzushi. :D It's even better when you have them on the ground and they can't move their arms. :cool: If you think I'm not being "aiki" about this, please check out the Noma dojo photos and how OSensei is positioned at the end of almost every technique.

We don't shy away from atemi, but it gets frustrating to talk about because, like Ignatius mentions, most people think of atemi as simplistic strikes added on top of or around an aikido technique. Our movements simply *are* atemi. By that I mean that the movements we do are basically all strikes and most impact into uke's core to some extent. The way most people use it is a kind of pantomime of a strike, often at the beginning of a scenario, again to "soften" the attacker. My biggest issue with this is that it stacks the deck in favor of nage. After all, uke is often restricted to one big dumb lunge attack. So uke makes a big solid *single* attack, and nage gets to jump off the line, strike them three times and then lay on a big ol' kotegaeshi. The problem is that as soon as someone starts striking like that at me, I'm going to start deflecting and striking back. Now we're sparring. That's cool, we can do that, but you're not going to get kotegaeshi on me that way...

Here's a great video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyO-jptgjx8) to help show what I'm talking about. I'm sure William will enjoy it too. ;) So pay attention to what parts of Kondo Sensei's movements are strikes or cuts in the paired practice with swords. Basically everything he does is a strike, a cut or a positioning move in order to strike or cut. Although this is Daito Ryu, this is really the genius of Nishio Sensei's system as well. Now watch his movements in the open hand portion. Many things that don't look like atemi (particularly the initial entry) simply *have* to be done as atemi for aiki to happen. This is a lot harder to see in the video of me and Jeremy that I posted, but it's very much the case.

Wawadewa

07-24-2008, 07:49 AM

Aaah, Kote Gaeshi, what a great and simple technique, yet so full of possibilities. It's all in the hips! Usually resistance may push me to use a diffent technique, based on the way uke will try to get away.

My sensei, emphasises the fact that there are no perfect techniques in Aikido but that the use of each technique will evolve with the resisting / furious / drunk 'uke' to ensure his/her safety and that no harm will be done.

We also run randoori sessions of reversing a technique. ie I do an irimi nage on Uke but Uke pulls out at a strategic moment and reverses the technique on me, we carry on with different techniques until someones develops enough ki to do a technique perfectly, out of which, escape is impossible, regardless of your resistance or knowledge.

A possible answer to this post is instead of making it work, why not let it evolve? ;)

Basia Halliop

07-24-2008, 08:18 AM

One thing I will say is that if your dealing with a large guy - atemi probably is necessary to offset him.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Can't your 'large guy' use atemi too, presumably harder than you can while as likely as not being less hurt by a strike of equal force? Doesn't the bigger person have an even bigger advantage in striking than in other approaches? So how does it 'offset' anything unless his hands are tied behind his back?

Not to go against atemi, just not clear to me where the logic in this particular argument is going.

rob_liberti

07-24-2008, 08:49 AM

I spoke with Chris P last night. I think we came to some terms on this one.

IF you can get to a position such that you can hit uke with an atemi and they can't easily hit you (like you are facing them, and they are not facing you) you are in a good position to do lots of techniques. And that will give you some degree of a "mechanical advantage". It will generally be enough unless your uke has developed uncommon structure. Which leads me to the next point/level of this stuff:

Someone mentioned it being all in the hips. Well there is a stage when I would have agreed. Now I work very hard to not move my hips much at all - and do it all from what will eventually be tremendously developed central equilibrium ("structure") which is a whole different level of "mechanical advantage" that has very little to do with getting the right angle relative to your uke.

Applying such "structure" to aikido waza then can be taken to the level of "aiki" where just touching uke can wind up with their uke's shoulder "floating" up and/or them dumping down at the floor at your feet. And that -to me- is yet a 3rd level of "mechanical advantage".

In my experience there is also a 4th level of "mechanical advantage" where you are dealing with someone else who also has uncommon structure developed in their body. This is where "soft power" is used to blow through other people's structure.

I was arguing "structure" against "mechanical advantage" because I was concerned that the level of depth of understanding "mechanical advantage" would only communicate the first/surface level of that concept I attempted to describe above.

Up thread, Chris Moses took on the same type of "depth" issue about surface level understanding of "atemi" and I totally agree with him. When you can deliver atemi from structure using aiki you are getting towards the 3rd and 4th level of depth concerning "mechanical advantage".

Rob

Erick Mead

07-24-2008, 02:14 PM

We don't shy away from atemi, but it gets frustrating to talk about because, like Ignatius mentions, most people think of atemi as simplistic strikes added on top of or around an aikido technique. Our movements simply *are* atemi. By that I mean that the movements we do are basically all strikes and most impact into uke's core to some extent. To avoid repeating myself and cross-threading uncessarily I responded to Ignatius's points on the Atemi thread which he previously cross-threaded from THIS thread and, and .... OOOoooh, get-ting , diz-zy. Here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=212129&postcount=72

dalen7

07-24-2008, 02:21 PM

A possible answer to this post is instead of making it work, why not let it evolve? ;)

I like that - I think that can work. :)

Peace

dAlen

dalen7

07-24-2008, 02:25 PM

Not to go against atemi, just not clear to me where the logic in this particular argument is going.

Timing, hes not going to be doing a 100 things at once. ;)
Find the opening, take advantage of it, and work fast.

It really is a depends...if the first thing he does is runs up and knocks your block off...suppose your right, not much you will do. - It depends on a number of factors. :)

Suppose the best one would be to run...well, in truth not get started.
But if your bent on getting started not using atemi isnt going to help you much as he will be doing everything he can - heck, while we are at it, lets go all out old fashioned juijitsu and bite and gouge. - in a real situation, you do what you can.

In doing that, I suppose if you can, offset him and see if you can pin the big fellow...what do I know about such things though...definitely not the expert. ;)

peace

dAlen

p.s. - very little 'logic' in my post as you may see... things are as they are. :D

dalen7

07-24-2008, 02:32 PM

To avoid repeating myself and cross-threading uncessarily I responded to Ignatius's points on the Atemi thread which he previously cross-threaded from THIS thread and, and .... OOOoooh, get-ting , diz-zy. Here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=212129&postcount=72

Didnt mean to turn the Kote Gaeshi thread into an atemi thread - basically it started this way after I came away from the seminar where our 4th dan sensei stresses atemi in every move...basically 3 strikes in each move.

I thought it was interesting, so I tried to incorporate it into this thread, especially since it was kote gaeshi that he used it with and it caught my attention.

Suppose in the end we can pit the senseis against each other in a ring and see who is right. (just kidding.) :D
(Although if you see a pic of my sensei, it wouldnt matter what he knew, I wouldnt challenge him.) :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - I do need to go through and read your post you linked to more thoroughly, as well as others on atemi with Aikido to see what blends for the various situations work best.

To some extent it seems like you would need 'live' training, of some sort, to really iron out all of the philosophical bits to see if it works in application.

I can see atemi offsetting uke to much to make an Aikido technique work, if you see what I mean.