PDA

View Full Version : applying aikido in real street fights


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


usn322
05-12-2008, 07:10 AM
hi i've been practicing aikido for almost 7 or 8 months now and i can't help but wonder and ask would my aikido work in the streets in real life situation? my point is that in aikido we train in stylized attacks like shomen, yokomen and katate you know the usual but how would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab,a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you. in other words, i just wanted to know the efficiency and effectivity of the art in real life scenarios. don't get me wrong i love aikido but i just wanted everybody's opinion. i would really appreciate it onegaishimasu!

gdandscompserv
05-12-2008, 07:43 AM
:eek:

rob_liberti
05-12-2008, 08:10 AM
Hello, and welcome to aikweb.

We continue to discuss this topic to death in a thead called something like "aikido does not work in a fight" and a bit more recently in some variant lke "fight does not work in aikido" and I'm sure there must be others.

I'll summarize my recollection of them so you can avoid 100 hours of reading through.

1st) aikido doesn't work in a fight
- yes it does
- no it doesn't
(continue that for a long while)

2nd) The solutions to the problem that stylized techniques on symbolic attacks which were designed to not work without tremendous depth come in
- it does work, you are just not training the True aikido like *I* do
(continue that line in the fashion of my dad can beat up your dad for a long while)
- i've already solved this problem in 1 of the following ways and now that I have my mind is mostly closed to any other alternatives:
--training MMA - it's the closest thing to real fighting (no it's not, yes it is, back and forth), we train high percentage techniques unlike aikido (when you muliply the probabilities of facing the double leg in daily life with "high percentage" of effectiveness you get high percentage of wasted life effort), if aikido were good we'd already be using it in cage matches (aikido movement principles can help vrs. "wristy twisty" is nonsense)
--rethink about aikido as a weapons retention system - shihonage makes more sense and basically all techniques that require a certain distance be respected make more sense (argued against MMA, and internal skill development)
--I started training internal skills with one of the folks to claim to be on the "fast track" to teaching them (argued against Internal skils are not displayed in MMA therefore they must have no value as opposed to they are just not commonly available, ending with "I'll believe it when I see it")

3rd) aikido has nothing to do with fighting
- that's not true
- yes it is
(continue that for a shorter while but longer than I expected)
- what is meant by being "effective"? maybe it's just avoiding
- if they are based on "principles" then they are supposed to really work in a real fight even if that isn't what you are interested in doing
- aikido has nothing to do with fighting, but we train in escalating levels which ultimately have us just completely dominating a non-cooperative skilled fighter (followed by so much confusion about that position that I decided I wasn't meant to understand that one and let it go)

It was all interspersed with credentials to support the positions like:
- I am/was an uchideshi
- I am a black belt
- my teacher is the best or whatever
generally as if no one else arguing trained long and hard past 1st degree black belt and/or doesn't think they have found the best training situation.

The bottom line - Trust Rob Liberti's position of course! which is:
a) Aikido worked on all levels then, and can work on all levels now.
b) Find one of the people who can fast track you in Internal Skills and train that along with aikido (taking/not-taking ukemi using the "when in Rome" model)
c) Cross train in MMA because it is fun and interesting, and you'll want to practice internal skills on more things than just aikido waza
...and you can trust me because I trained long and hard, am a certified black belt, and I have the best teachers in the best style(s) :)

-Rob

Cordula Meyer
05-12-2008, 08:25 AM
If you want to know, how you can react to jabs, hooks and so on, just try it out with a friend, might be great fun.
You cannot defend yourself against a gun.
How realistic are the real life scenarios you are thinking about ?

DonMagee
05-12-2008, 08:58 AM
hi i've been practicing aikido for almost 7 or 8 months now and i can't help but wonder and ask would my aikido work in the streets in real life situation? my point is that in aikido we train in stylized attacks like shomen, yokomen and katate you know the usual but how would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab,a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you. in other words, i just wanted to know the efficiency and effectivity of the art in real life scenarios. don't get me wrong i love aikido but i just wanted everybody's opinion. i would really appreciate it onegaishimasu!

If you have doubts, you need to evaluate your goals and see if your training meets them.

That is the first step. Without realistic goals, you can never know what you are looking for.

So what are you goals?

Do you want to be able to submit or knock out a untrained drunk at 3 months? 3 years? Maybe a trained MMA fighter in 6 weeks, 100 years?

Once you have your goals, look at what you are doing. Then ask "Is what I am doing realistically going to obtain these goals in the time frame I have set?". Then if the answer is no ask "Are my goals realistic for the time frame I have set?". If the answer is no, then re-evaluate your goals. If the answer is yes, then look at what you can change in your training to meet those goals.

You can take this further. Once you have these goals in mind, you can ask your mentors about them. For example, if you want to win a grappling tournament in the next 3 years, you can tell your instructor that. If he says "Well, I really don't think you will learn what you need for competition here." Then you know you need to find a new place to train. Maybe ask him for a referral. If your goal is to be a 120 pound untrained weakling on the street, and your instructor says that is no problem. Ask him how you are progressing towards that goal. What you could be doing to help complete that goal.

Finally, the most important part. Test yourself. At least a few times a month.

if your goal is non-combative. Find ways to test yourself. Maybe you are working on anger management. Focus on being calm in traffic when that guy cuts you off. Did you? Why not? What can you do to help?

Maybe your goal is combative? Ask someone in your club to 'really try' to hit you. Maybe go to another club and take a free class. Jump into their sparing, or even explain to the instructor what your goals are, tell him what you are doing and ask him to evaluate you. You would be surprised with the honesty you can get. Just take it with a grain of salt, he might be on the lookout for new students. Use this time to make friends, not alienate people. Don't use false modesty. Just be honest, try your best, and don't make excuses. Don't put down their art or talk about how your art trains to do X. Just work out, do what they ask, and try your best in their sparing. Then once you have made friends, setup some free play time and work it.

See if a local MMA/bjj/judo club has a open mat night. Try heading to that now and then and explain your goals and ask for help. You would be suprised what people are up for. If someone showed up with a foam bat and asked me to try to hit them while they tried to take it away from me. I would be game, even if it was only a bjj open mat class. As long as the guy was friendly and didn't look like he was trying to be 'better' then I am.

As you can see, my goals have been a lot more combative.

My last piece of advice is to learn. What videos about history, training, theory, etc on your subject. Read books! Spend time talking to those old guys who did the same thing you are trying to do. But remember that part of learning is doubt. Feel free to doubt and feel free to assume you know better. You might not, but you also might know better. For example, I know far better how to warm up a group then my judo coach. I've spent time reading about sports science and talking to my sports doctors and therapists. He is still using the science of the 50's. I don't contradict him, but I make sure to warm myself up properly before class. Feel free to ask them questions, be confrontational, but polite if you must. I feel the last thing most old people want is for people to humor them. Force them to defend their position if you feel it is wrong. Some won't bother, but the ones that do can really teach you something.

So that is all I have right now time wise. But if you are worried about your aikido on the street. Go talk to your coach about it, go read about combat, read about the types of attacks that are common, decide if you know how to deal with it, find places to test that, find out what you have and what you are missing, revise your plan, speak with 3rd parties and your instructor about your plan and goals, and repeat.

jennifer paige smith
05-12-2008, 09:05 AM
Worked for me, period.

lbb
05-12-2008, 09:26 AM
hi i've been practicing aikido for almost 7 or 8 months now and i can't help but wonder and ask would my aikido work in the streets in real life situation?

I'll answer your question if you will first describe what your "street" is like, and also the typical "real life situation" in which you need to defend yourself. The last time you were attacked, what was it like? One person or multiple people? In your home, in a bar, or on the stereotyped "street"? Did they have weapons? Did they have any fighting skills? What were they after: your car, your wallet, a piece of your hide? Please describe the last...hmm, let's say five times you were attacked, and I'll tell you if aikido is effective.

Aikibu
05-12-2008, 09:48 AM
Nothing "works" in a street fight...if you don't have any Martial Experiance...

William Hazen

Jorge Garcia
05-12-2008, 09:52 AM
My son is a Nidan in Aikido and has been in the art for 14 years. He is internal security for a major retailer and his job is basically to fight for a living (without the referee). I would say that he has been in hundreds of fights with people of all stripes and sizes and in almost every conceivable situation. To my knowledge, he has only claimed to have lost one fight and that was because a huge guy picked him up and slammed him into the ground and then the other security personnel grabbed the guy. In other words, he didn't have a chance to get him and the bell rung. My son has found Aikido effective but he learned that you don't use Aikido techniques but Aikido principles. While he has used many techniques, it is the principle of keep his center that has helped him the most. The fights have been from moderate to intense. He recently got married but he had his wedding pictures taken with three gashes on his face from the last fight. He did win that one too. The guy was a good fighter and was punching fast and hard and in fact hit him in the face three times but a good irimi followed by a modified iriminage cushioned by some soft concrete ended it.

Like many people, your questions aren't based on reality because you haven't had any reality. It would be this way using any martial art. What you see in the movies are just that - movies.
Best wishes,
Jorge

Beard of Chuck Norris
05-12-2008, 10:11 AM
...
My son has found Aikido effective but he learned that you don't use Aikido techniques but Aikido principles. ...
Jorge

IMO (whatever that's worth) aikido IS a set of principles NOT a set of techniques.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-12-2008, 10:37 AM
Jorge,

Is the John Stevens Garcia who appears in Shudokan Aikido (http://www.shudokanaikido.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3)website your son?

Jorge Garcia
05-12-2008, 11:33 AM
Jorge,

Is the John Stevens Garcia who appears in Shudokan Aikido (http://www.shudokanaikido.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3)website your son?

Yes he is.
Jorge

Demetrio Cereijo
05-12-2008, 11:43 AM
Then things like this:

In order to round out his martial arts abilities and to increase his knowlege of martial arts in general, John has also taken up the study of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu under Travis Tooke, an outstanding instructor in this art. He hopes to train in this art for many years to come.

John Stephen trains in Aikido as his schedule allows. He trains in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at least once or twice a week.

are relevant, imho, to the OP concerns.

Your son seems to be a young athlete who crostrain in 'alive' arts and works in security.... that makes the difference between him and a abstract '14 years training aikido nidan'.

dps
05-12-2008, 12:40 PM
The guy was a good fighter and was punching fast and hard and in fact hit him in the face three times but a good irimi followed by a modified iriminage cushioned by some soft concrete ended it.

Foul!!!!
This does not count as a real life situation. Real life situations don't have soft concrete unless it was recently poured and still wet. Why were they fighting in wet cement?.:)


David

dps
05-12-2008, 12:49 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333

This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. etc,etc,etc, ad nauseam.

David

ramenboy
05-12-2008, 12:49 PM
my point is that in aikido we train in stylized attacks like shomen, yokomen and katate you know the usual but how would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab,a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you.

just don't end up in a pin or something. if the guy slaps the cement, you might let him go

:P

philippe willaume
05-12-2008, 01:03 PM
hi i've been practicing aikido for almost 7 or 8 months now and i can't help but wonder and ask would my aikido work in the streets in real life situation? my point is that in aikido we train in stylized attacks like shomen, yokomen and katate you know the usual but how would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab,a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you. in other words, i just wanted to know the efficiency and effectivity of the art in real life scenarios. don't get me wrong i love aikido but i just wanted everybody's opinion. i would really appreciate it onegaishimasu!
Well, if we want to push the efficiency argument to its natural conclusion then any martial does not work in a “real fight”.

The only thing that works is being willing to do what it takes to win, sprinkled with a good dose of being able to tank up what is coming when you are surprised or you just cock up. (Hopefully, if we not to much unlucky what is coming is tankable).
That does not necessarily mean that you need to be a pit-bull crossed with a jack Russell to have a chance in a fight.
It is more about martial art usually give you way to safely go to a place where you can deliver you technique in relative peace. (Beside the more jack cross pit bull you are the more likely you area to run afoul off mister Plod.)
Any technique delivered out of time and distance, is likely to fail what ever the technique, whatever the art and whatever the weapon.

You are wondereing if aikido would works against a jab, try it with a mate and see where it leads you.

Phil

Jorge Garcia
05-12-2008, 01:12 PM
Then things like this:

are relevant, imho, to the OP concerns.

Your son seems to be a young athlete who crostrain in 'alive' arts and works in security.... that makes the difference between him and a abstract '14 years training aikido nidan'.

Good try my friend but you assume wrongly. My son has only months in Brazilian jujitsu and has less than 20 lessons in it. He has never done any sport at all. I home schooled him from grades 1 through 12 and I enrolled him in Aikido when he was 11 years old. He is almost 25 now. On the other hand, he has been in security work for about 5 years and his Aikido was his only influence as far as self defense goes. He has worked at the Airport for TSA but mostly for major retail stores stopping shoplifters. While there are lots of kids involved, he also has a large number of professional criminals stealing flat screen TV's and electronics up to thousands in value (like yesterday). Some of these guys are on probation and will fight hard to get away. The police have to be called every day and it does get plenty rough with situations where they are stopping two and three men and many times, he has been alone. Employees are not allowed to help (due to lawsuits etc) and can only watch.
When he started this kind of work, I followed it with great interest to see how his Aikido would work out and I have been able to see most of his fights that were caught on camera. We talk about them all the time.

In jujitsu, he has done well and everyone there respects his background in Aikido and they can see that his training has him above that of the normal beginners.

The "alive art" that he trained in was Aikido because when we train, we have always had times when we made it as alive as possible. Just last night, he and I were tussling and we were going at it as alive as we could get without hurting each other.

I think it is true that his on the job experience has definitely made improvements in what he does. He was also doing just as well when he started this kind of work and he easily disabled a mugger on a street in west Houston when he was just 15 or 16 years old.

I don't believe though that the art made him just like I don't believe that any art can make someone as far as fighting goes. The arts supplement what ability, desire and training you have. I have always argued though that Aikido is a suitable training method for real self defense for normal people and I have based that largely in part because of what I have seen in my son who operates in an atmosphere above that which a normal person might encounter.

I think that your post reflects you had a bias before you started typing. I do agree with you in part but I do believe that it is the person makes the art and that Aikido is good enough for the average person's self defense needs.

best wishes,
Jorge

Jorge Garcia
05-12-2008, 01:15 PM
Foul!!!!
This does not count as a real life situation. Real life situations don't have soft concrete unless it was recently poured and still wet. Why were they fighting in wet cement?.:)

David

Just a joke :D I'm sure you know!
Jorge

Jorge Garcia
05-12-2008, 01:20 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333

This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was and they will continue posting to it forever just because. etc,etc,etc, ad nauseam.

David

Sorry David. I agree and if you look at my info on the side, you can see that I have been around Aikiweb for a while and that I don't post every day. I just pop in on this thread every so often to make the same point I ways do for the folks who in fact don't know that this is a useless and endless argument. It is that though because the general public has some common misconceptions about what martial arts really are and about fighting and self defense in general and unfortunately, it will always be that way.
best wishes,
Jorge

dps
05-12-2008, 01:40 PM
Jorge,

Please, my joke was not intended toward you at all. Recently I was looking at some old Aikiweb posts and found one about does 'Aikido work in a fight' dated I think in 2003. It is never ending argument.

David

Aikibu
05-12-2008, 01:44 PM
Someone poses a question about if Aikido works...

Most say yes...

Some say no...

Lots of semantic nitpicking ensues...

And it's another fine day on the Aikiweb Forums. :D

William Hazen

Demetrio Cereijo
05-12-2008, 01:50 PM
I think that your post reflects you had a bias before you started typing. I do agree with you in part but I do believe that it is the person makes the art and that Aikido is good enough for the average person's self defense needs.

Well, my bias is about giving the OP the impresion that 14 years of aikido, without further ellaboration like you did will suffice.

Now you have clarified some relevant points:

- He is in his early 20's: A lot of young untrained males are holding their own in "the street" every day. And disabling muggers even at 16 is not homeric, btw..

- He works in a hard environment where he receives real time feedback about what and how works and what doesn't on almost daily basis. Sink or swim.

- He trains under experienced instructor interested in giving him realistic training: "when we train, we have always had times when we made it as alive as possible. Just last night, he and I were tussling and we were going at it as alive as we could get without hurting each other."

Things like these are what make SD effective aikido. Of course if someone doesn't need or want your son skills, this kind of training has no purpose.

Regards,

Demetrio

akiy
05-12-2008, 01:56 PM
Hmm...

Does anyone want to try creating an AikiWiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/) article to help address this issue in the future? Just a thought.

-- Jun

Jorge Garcia
05-12-2008, 02:19 PM
Well, my bias is about giving the OP the impresion that 14 years of aikido, without further ellaboration like you did will suffice.

Now you have clarified some relevant points:

- He is in his early 20's: A lot of young untrained males are holding their own in "the street" every day. And disabling muggers even at 16 is not homeric, btw..

- He works in a hard environment where he receives real time feedback about what and how works and what doesn't on almost daily basis. Sink or swim.

- He trains under experienced instructor interested in giving him realistic training: "when we train, we have always had times when we made it as alive as possible. Just last night, he and I were tussling and we were going at it as alive as we could get without hurting each other."

Things like these are what make SD effective aikido. Of course if someone doesn't need or want your son skills, this kind of training has no purpose.

Regards,

Demetrio

Good points.
Jorge

mickeygelum
05-12-2008, 02:49 PM
What is Aikido...and has anybody else seen two streets really fight?:hypno:

I am at a loss for words, I must be the only one that has never seen a real street fight, do highways and interstates engage in combat? :confused:

Ballet is my life,

Mickey

CSFurious
05-12-2008, 03:56 PM
after reading this thread, i came to the most obvious conclusion

let's take 2 Aikido students

one is an accountant who kisses the wife & kids goodbye every morning before he leaves his house in the nice, safe suburbs in his nice car & does accountant-type things before going to Aikido practice maybe on Mondays & Wednesdays for an hour each day (because it is not tax season); if he is real lucky, he gets to go to class every other Saturday for 90 minutes

two is a corrections officer in a maximum-security prison who deals with violent, offenders most of whom would like nothing more then to either kill or seriously maim him on a daily basis; he works 50 or more hours a week because he needs the overtime to pay his mortgage & he trains approximately 5 hours per week in the Aikido dojo

if i had to bet my house on who would be better in a "real-life" situation after 14 years of Aikido training, i think betting on No.2 would be the biggest no-brainer in the history of the world

later

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-12-2008, 04:58 PM
I liked Rob Liberti's summary. I think that if anyone wants to take part in this discussion seriously, it's well-past-time to summarize the major questions and arguments and proceed more scientifically. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

lbb
05-12-2008, 06:21 PM
What Paul said. Let anyone who cares, hash it out on the wiki. That's what wiki discussion pages are for.

Bill Danosky
05-12-2008, 06:59 PM
Here's my summary: Go ask your sensei!

DonMagee
05-12-2008, 10:02 PM
Here's my summary: Go ask your sensei!

I'd advise against using that as your only solution. What if the guy is doing a snow job and you haven't picked up on it yet? There is no beating getting your butt out there for a little personal experience.

Yes your sensei is a great resource, but it should never be your only resource.

Rocky Izumi
05-12-2008, 10:42 PM
I used to practice on my Springer Spaniels. Even used to do Kotegaeshi on them when roughhousing. Then, one day, the big Doberman from next door jumped the fence and came into the yard to challenge my breeding pair. When the female snapped at the Doberman's hindquarters and distracted it, the male dove in, grabbed the front paw of the Doberman and rolled. It was a wonderfully executed Kotegaeshi but the Doberman ended up with a broken paw and the male Springer with its jaws around its neck and the female on a hind leg. I was able to call off the male and female and carried the Doberman back to the neighbor's with an apology and warning to keep their dog in their yard or I wouldn't call off the dogs next time. Funny thing, the Doberman would never challenge the Springers again and would run away if they got too close to the common fence. Yeah, Kotegaeshi worked in a street situation. At least for my dogs.

Rock

rob_liberti
05-12-2008, 11:19 PM
I have a few other points about this in terms of a wiki article.

1) There is a wiki article about this already:
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Combat

2) What I wrote as a summary is lacking a few crucial points I forgot about.
a) in terms of what I recommended, I forgot to mention that another important point is find someone who has actaully BEEN IN FIGHTS and USED the training method MANY TIMES if at all possible who can help you learn from those experiences (if you are trying to become fighting competent using the skills you are developing).
b) aikido is ill suited for protecting OTHERS. I like it for self defense. In terms of a primal male function in society to protect the family, MMA (powered by Internal skills) is a much better choice.

Also there were some great lines/posts about this. My personal favorites have been:

Competitive martial arts have taken off of late, and hardly anyone seems to be knocking on aikido's door for either internal or external material. - Paul Sanderson-Cimino
(I have been considering making that my tag line some day.)

This retort:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=205989&postcount=56

The last line of my post regarding knife techniques when someone is trying to steal your wallet at knife point:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=205943&postcount=42

-Rob

dps
05-13-2008, 12:39 AM
What is Aikido...and has anybody else seen two streets really fight?:hypno:

I am at a loss for words, I must be the only one that has never seen a real street fight, do highways and interstates engage in combat? :confused:

Ballet is my life,

Mickey

Do toll roads have to pay to fight?

David

Carl Thompson
05-13-2008, 12:54 AM
Do toll roads have to pay to fight?

David

Don’t mess with me! I’m a total cycle path! :grr:

philippe willaume
05-13-2008, 04:36 AM
What is Aikido...and has anybody else seen two streets really fight?:hypno:

I am at a loss for words, I must be the only one that has never seen a real street fight, do highways and interstates engage in combat? :confused:

Ballet is my life,

Mickey

Well good for you, that being said you do not need to live an adventurous life to be involved in a few scraps.
It seems reasonable to assume that the initial question was directed to the said type of scraps and not really soccer firms at each other or attack by the deadly suburb gang on pcp with optional machetes.

@david
No but you have to pay to see toll road fight.

lbb
05-13-2008, 08:22 AM
Well good for you, that being said you do not need to live an adventurous life to be involved in a few scraps.
It seems reasonable to assume that the initial question was directed to the said type of scraps and not really soccer firms at each other or attack by the deadly suburb gang on pcp with optional machetes.

It doesn't seem to me reasonable in the least to assume any such thing.

I had a boss a few jobs back who taught me a valuable lesson that I wish I could convey to each and every single person who asks about "street fights". He was the head of engineering, so we had to go to him whenever we wanted to implement a new feature or product or gizmo or whatever. He'd listen as you enthusiastically described all the stuff that your whatsis would do, nod in all the right places, and then say, "What is the problem you're trying to solve?" And if we couldn't tell him what the purpose of this whatsis was, what problem it was intended to solve...we couldn't build it. Simple as that.

All these people who ask if x martial art is good on "the street" are just the same. They're like people wandering around the Home Depot waving random tools and saying, "Is this a good tool?" Who can answer that? It all depends on what you need to use it for. Want to nail shingles? That hammer will do that just fine, but it'll suck if you need to cut plywood.

People are asking if a tool is a good tool, but they can't be bothered to spend thirty seconds to describe the problem that they want this tool to solve. That sounds to me like someone who isn't all that interested in solving a real live actual problem. YMMV.

Aikibu
05-13-2008, 10:34 AM
It doesn't seem to me reasonable in the least to assume any such thing.

I had a boss a few jobs back who taught me a valuable lesson that I wish I could convey to each and every single person who asks about "street fights". He was the head of engineering, so we had to go to him whenever we wanted to implement a new feature or product or gizmo or whatever. He'd listen as you enthusiastically described all the stuff that your whatsis would do, nod in all the right places, and then say, "What is the problem you're trying to solve?" And if we couldn't tell him what the purpose of this whatsis was, what problem it was intended to solve...we couldn't build it. Simple as that.

All these people who ask if x martial art is good on "the street" are just the same. They're like people wandering around the Home Depot waving random tools and saying, "Is this a good tool?" Who can answer that? It all depends on what you need to use it for. Want to nail shingles? That hammer will do that just fine, but it'll suck if you need to cut plywood.

People are asking if a tool is a good tool, but they can't be bothered to spend thirty seconds to describe the problem that they want this tool to solve. That sounds to me like someone who isn't all that interested in solving a real live actual problem. YMMV.

Thanks Mary!!!

It's so funny to me that folks spend so much time wrapped up with answering a BEGINNERS question about if Aikido will work in a "real street fight." Not to dis...respect beginners but I have a few old salty dog Martial Artists in my Dojo and they came to Aikido because they got sick of fighting.

In the old days it seemed to me that Aikido was something you pursued if you wanted to go beyond learning how to fight and was populated by experianced students of other Budo...It promised something "extra" and years later I am glad I stuck around to learn how "not to fight." :D

William Hazen

ChrisHein
05-13-2008, 10:59 AM
1st) aikido doesn't work in a fight
- yes it does
- no it doesn't
(continue that for a long while)



I really just about fell out of my chair laughing when I read that! That was one of the best-funniest posts I've read on Aikiweb in a long long time!

Thanks for a good start to my day Rob.

Stefan Stenudd
05-13-2008, 11:09 AM
Yeah, Kotegaeshi worked in a street situation. At least for my dogs.
Funny - I was just thinking about using dogs as an example, when I read this amusing post.
I think about the Dog Whisper, with Cesar Millan, a TV show that I am kind of addicted to. From my way of seeing it, he uses a lot of aikido principles in his encounters with dogs. You know: attitude, extended energy, relaxed mind and body, refusing to accept a challenge, and so on.

In my experience, aikido has been an excellent method to avoid getting into street fights, using that attitude and those principles.
That's indeed much better than getting involved in street fights, even if you win them.

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2008, 11:24 AM
I don't think ANYONE posting here would question the fact that it is in fact better not to be invovled in "street fights". It's almost silly to have to say so.

Sometimes though, stuff happens. On the odd chance that it does, I'd like the aikido I train to have some lessons for that rare situation. But it certainly would not be my prime expectation...kind of just goes in the hopper with all my other unrealistic expectations. :D

Best,
Ron

lbb
05-13-2008, 01:27 PM
Sometimes though, stuff happens. On the odd chance that it does, I'd like the aikido I train to have some lessons for that rare situation. But it certainly would not be my prime expectation...kind of just goes in the hopper with all my other unrealistic expectations. :D

It's just as realistic as wandering around Home Depot, randomly picking up tools and hoping you'll find the right one for some "stuff" and a "rare situation" that you haven't defined. In other words...not realistic at all. :D

As the old saying has it, "If you don't know where you're going, any road will do."

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2008, 01:57 PM
I'm really glad you post here...just gave me a really big smile. ;)

Best,
Ron

Stefan Stenudd
05-13-2008, 03:02 PM
I don't think ANYONE posting here would question the fact that it is in fact better not to be invovled in "street fights". It's almost silly to have to say so.
Sorry for being almost silly.

What I tried to explain was that training aikido actually decreases the risk of being attacked in the street. I mean that very concretely.
Violent people tend to pick their victims, and aikido makes you less and less one they tend to pick. Like with the dogs. It's a matter of attitude, posture, and all that.

Of course, there's no guarantee. There just isn't. What anyone can do is to decrease the risk - and there are countless ways to do that.
Aikido is one, and it works already on the prior-to-attack situation, so to speak sen-sen-no-sen.

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2008, 03:19 PM
Agreed, and I didn't mean to call you silly...just the idea! ;)

My main instructor tends to speak about percentages once they attack is on...If you move this way, maybe you get 51% and they get 49%...if you move some other way, maybe he gets the better percentage. Once the fight is on, it's kind of a crap shoot...so you might as well take those small increases in the odds, and train to make that happen.

Better than nothing! And I also agree that confidence tends to keep some thugs away. In the wrong enviroment though, I have seen it attract trouble.

Best,
Ron (confident AND humble, that's my motto :D)

philippe willaume
05-14-2008, 06:04 AM
It doesn't seem to me reasonable in the least to assume any such thing.

I had a boss a few jobs back who taught me a valuable lesson that I wish I could convey to each and every single person who asks about "street fights". He was the head of engineering, so we had to go to him whenever we wanted to implement a new feature or product or gizmo or whatever. He'd listen as you enthusiastically described all the stuff that your whatsis would do, nod in all the right places, and then say, "What is the problem you're trying to solve?" And if we couldn't tell him what the purpose of this whatsis was, what problem it was intended to solve...we couldn't build it. Simple as that.

All these people who ask if x martial art is good on "the street" are just the same. They're like people wandering around the Home Depot waving random tools and saying, "Is this a good tool?" Who can answer that? It all depends on what you need to use it for. Want to nail shingles? That hammer will do that just fine, but it'll suck if you need to cut plywood.

People are asking if a tool is a good tool, but they can't be bothered to spend thirty seconds to describe the problem that they want this tool to solve. That sounds to me like someone who isn't all that interested in solving a real live actual problem. YMMV.

Hello Mary nice analogy
That being said may be I am a bit thick and my command of English may not be as good as I believe it to be but it is my understanding that he stated the question reasonably clearly.
I mean the original post clearly stated what he wanted to solve.

Quote
How would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab, a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you. In other words, I just wanted to know the efficiency and effectively of the art in real life scenarios.
End quote

It may a stupid beginner question but again I believe that there is no stupid questions (and I am working in computer supports where I had to explain pointer to visual C++ programmer and the fact that space is not a numeric value to Cobol programmer).
You may be correct the original poster may be just stirring the top not really interested in the answer (aka TFTP Trolling for Trawling Purposes), but he is not asking how do you do nikkio on someone without hands or how would defeat Bass Rute in a pancrase match.

That being said my initial answer was akin to your sentiment, plus try it in the dodkjo and see where it lead
A possible difference might be that I think any martial art (or martial sport) is a good enough tool for self defence. Provided that you train or test it with active resistance when you train and that you the efficiency is not in intrinsically in the art, it is your understanding of the said art, your per equation of that understanding and the physical aspect and your willingness to do what it takes to win/ intent, (whichever you want to call it)

By understanding of the art I mean something like Ringeck state in 15th century fencing manual
Strike when he strikes; thrust when he thrusts and Schnitt or wrestle when he closes in to wrestle.
What you will do will depend if he is strong or weak in his contact at the sword
The two of those put together will guide you in the technique selection.

As far as intent, I do not mean you need to rip the arm of you opponent and beat him to death with the wet end but more a matter of determination and purpose.

Phil

philippe willaume
05-14-2008, 06:33 AM
Sorry for being almost silly.

What I tried to explain was that training aikido actually decreases the risk of being attacked in the street. I mean that very concretely.
Violent people tend to pick their victims, and aikido makes you less and less one they tend to pick. Like with the dogs. It's a matter of attitude, posture, and all that.

Of course, there's no guarantee. There just isn't. What anyone can do is to decrease the risk - and there are countless ways to do that.
Aikido is one, and it works already on the prior-to-attack situation, so to speak sen-sen-no-sen.

That confident demeanour is true for any martial arts. Most of self defence course are based on pre-emptive avoidance of places and situation.
That being said and I think this is what Mary is saying in her reply to Ron, is that you need to a have a link between what you do and self defence if you want to use it efficiently for self defence.
In that case you practice the ability to use but not necessarily in what context it can used.

Practicing a fair amount of gross motor skill simple actions usually for a small amount of time each, as you sometime see in self defence seminar is the same you are developing the understanding of the context but not the ability to use.

phil

Stefan Stenudd
05-14-2008, 08:28 AM
And I also agree that confidence tends to keep some thugs away. In the wrong enviroment though, I have seen it attract trouble.
Confidence is not exactly what I talk about. A radiation of confidence can be provocative, sometimes, that is true. What aikido can teach is an attitude where a vicious observer just does not get the idea of attacking - because he is neither provoked, nor does he feel that he could win a fight.

I think that the best prevention is an attitude of calmness, stature, and peace. If I am allowed to talk in ki terms: If you let your own ki just flow away from you, like water from a goose (as we say in Sweden), then the potential attacker will have the same experience when trying to aim at you - his ki flows away, and his aggression slips away.
It is not fool-proof - nothing is. But it works quite well in most situations. I once held off the attack of a vicious gang of some 15-20 very aggressive men that way, but I still regard myself as a beginner of it.

We can learn a lot from the animal kingdom, where very different things from number and muscle are decisive.

Ron Tisdale
05-14-2008, 03:19 PM
I think I understand what you are talking about Stefan, and have used it myself once in a rather dire situation (running away was not an option).

Best,
Ron

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-14-2008, 04:10 PM
All these people who ask if x martial art is good on "the street" are just the same. They're like people wandering around the Home Depot waving random tools and saying, "Is this a good tool?" Who can answer that? It all depends on what you need to use it for. Want to nail shingles? That hammer will do that just fine, but it'll suck if you need to cut plywood.

If I might be permitted to muck around with another's simile, perhaps I could explain my earlier questions about aikido's functional origins using the same general model. A hammer is not good for cutting plywood, sanding a bench, or texturing a wall. But it's great for pounding in nails. In fact, if you told a bunch of people who had never seen a hammer to pound in some nails, they'd likely eventually develop something that looks a lot like a hammer. They would not create a saw. My question about functional origins, then, could be phrased as: "For what sort of work were tools like kotegaeshi and ikkyo developed?" One could also imagine archaeologists discovering a hammer and trying to figure out what it was for.

Sorry if that was a bit tangential. As for the main question, I do not think most sane modern martial artists focus on "street fights". Some people do have jobs or living situations that put them into violent conflict on a regular basis, and there are training regimens for that: usually involving devices like tasers, pepper spray, guns, batons, partners, and so on.

Someone who is not a cop or something similar should probably not be spending time worrying about some random thug accosting them in a "dark alley".

Now, if you're asking about aikido's martial effectiveness, I think that's more relevant to a modern practitioner -- I believe that's an important part of understanding a martial art.

aikilouis
05-14-2008, 04:19 PM
Toby Threadgill once defined aiki as the skill of mental disruption to defeat the opponent, a principle inherited from sword arts. More broadly, it is the skill of mental dynamics and personal influence applied to combat.

In my opinion one of aikido's chief ideas is that there is just one changing reality, and the mind should be in accord with it at all times with the minimum effort. It seems that O Sensei did not mentally switch from an everyday state to a combat state. According to the witnesses he was always alert and ready, leaving no opening in any circumstance. It was not only the result of his practice of techniques, but also a permanent training of his own mind to face any situation.
Sokaku Takeda Sensei also developped this ability, but seemed to have a much darker view of the world and was very suspicious about the others.
Both are reported to have a very deep intuition about people. They also both seemed to always have the upper hand in confrontations, notably because they read and maneuvered their opponent so well that they literally were in their hands, attracted and guided by very subtle signs, even before any physical contact.

According to me, there are 3 stages in the development of this aiki principle (*) :
Step 1 : Develop the perception of your environment, determine the forces at work around you (physical like obstacles or mental like emotional states from other people), and even foresee the possible changes in those forces.

Step 2 : Develop your ability to "shift shape" and adopt the proper attitude at the right time and reduce "tensions" or "frictions" to a minimum. Sometimes it means looking confident and in charge, other times it means being virtually invisible (blending so well in the environment that you draw no attention), etc. It is essential that this attitude must come from extreme sincerity, because faking it exposes you to be unmasked and exposed.

Step 3 : Develop the ability to influence things and people : from there it becomes possible to adopt a proper behaviour towards others according to the situation : negotiation, leadership, contradiction, simple indifference, etc.

(*) In passing, I think that O Sensei's aikido is made of three master principles, interconnected but defined as :
1- Aiki as the skill of mental dynamics and personal influence
2- Aiki as the skill of body structure (kokyu power, etc)
3- Aiki as a philosophical vision of harmony with Nature

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-14-2008, 04:28 PM
I hear that this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoryuken) is a great technique for street fighting.

Kevin Leavitt
05-14-2008, 04:33 PM
Ludwig,

you focus on three very important points:

1. Seek to understand before being understood
2. Be honest and authentic.
3. Understand the difference between your circle of influence and your circle of concern.

Bill Danosky
05-15-2008, 10:36 AM
I had advised to ask your sensei about "street' applications:

I'd advise against using that as your only solution. What if the guy is doing a snow job and you haven't picked up on it yet? There is no beating getting your butt out there for a little personal experience.

Yes your sensei is a great resource, but it should never be your only resource.

Don is right. I realized I'm spoiled by my extremely credible sensei.

That, and it's time for me to say once again that anyone having doubts about Aikido's real life practicality should attend an Amos Parker Shihan clinic asap.

Aikibu
05-15-2008, 10:56 AM
Ludwig,

you focus on three very important points:

1. Seek to understand before being understood
2. Be honest and authentic.
3. Understand the difference between your circle of influence and your circle of concern.

I agree with Kevin.... Ludwig. Great Post and you outlined the "mission" of a Budo Seeker very well.

William Hazen

aikilouis
05-15-2008, 11:58 AM
Huh, thanks guys.
I think that the principles I proposed are valuable at a micro scale (the study of waza at the dojo) as well as at a macro scale (social interactions in everyday life), and that the Founder emphasised the idea that the transformative process of aikido was a continuum between martial learning and self improvement.

Artificially separating those two aspects is a mistake one is often tempted to make ("some people practice martial aikido, others emphasise spiritual aikido") in the name of efficiency.

Jamie_Macc
05-16-2008, 03:24 AM
Hi guys, the other week i was assualted in a park near my home and i managed to use aikido to 'prtect' myself you just have to apply the specialized attacks, for example instead of seing it as yokomenuchi see it as a left/right hook,
Thats how i saw it and it seemed to work. i can see the arguement against aikido in fight situations but it worked for me.

Jamie

Bill Danosky
05-18-2008, 07:14 PM
...There goes your proof.