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Laura Donohue
05-08-2008, 08:21 PM
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...

Laura

aikidoc
05-08-2008, 11:10 PM
Maybe in the 60s with assistance to remove filters. Don't mean to be flip. Feel maybe, see? What you might be seeing is the heat emanating off someones body if you are at the right angle and background.

Laura Donohue
05-08-2008, 11:30 PM
No filters needed.

and to re-iterate, its not exactly seeing, nor is it exactly not seeing. Hmm...

eyrie
05-09-2008, 12:42 AM
I thought this was pretty funny in light of some posts of late... one about hemp gi... and something about the "Force".

happysod
05-09-2008, 04:15 AM
and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there.Good, at least you're questioning - simple answer, yes, you are. The mind is able to project all sorts of false information depending on many factorsI seem to see tracers of our body movements ... the simple white walls of our dojo if your dojo uses fluorescent lighting you may want to have some of the tubes checked, you may be sensitive to strobe effects

Stefan Stenudd
05-09-2008, 04:29 AM
To me, ki is not something visible in itself, but in its manifestations. It's a reading of dynamics, of movement and change, rather than a substance.

I like to regard ki as "the ether of intention", and somebody's intention is often possible to perceive - for example by minute initial movements of the body, its posture and balance, and so on. I am sure that all of us are often able to see on somebody where he or she intends to move, before that movement has commenced.
That is tracking the ether of intention, and of course it can be described in other words.

I would not at all be surprised if all ki phenomena could be explained in terms of established natural science. In aikido, though, the ki concept and its apparatus are practical and effective methods of exercising aikido fundamentals.
So, to me ki is something for using, not for observing in itself. I would even say that it does not exist other than in the dynamics of its manifestations. When it has nothing to do, it is not there.

aikilouis
05-09-2008, 04:34 AM
Intriguing.

How does it translate in the way you execute technique ?

Stefan Stenudd
05-09-2008, 05:23 AM
How does it translate in the way you execute technique ?
By each year, I find myself doing the techniques more and more on uke's intention and direction, and less on uke's body.

Simply put: I start by making my direction join that of uke (the taisabaki step), and extend it, which allows me to redirect.

Also, I regard the technique as commencing already when uke takes aim. At that moment, I try to be "inside of" uke, to join with his or her intention already at its center. I would like to do the aikido techniques so that uke feels as if doing them to him- or herself.

Laurel Seacord
05-09-2008, 05:57 AM
I find that my unconscious mind finds many different ways of communicating with me to supplement logical thought. I don't know exactly what cues I read to sense that someone is looking at me with intent, but subjectively I may feel a prickling on my skin from that person's direction.
Laura, I don't think that you have to decide whether ki is visible to you or not. If what you "see" is telling you the truth, then believe it!!!!!!

aikilouis
05-09-2008, 07:02 AM
My question was directed to the OP, but anyone who experiences the same perceptions should be free to contribute.

aikidoc
05-09-2008, 08:08 AM
Ignateus. I was really tempted on the hemp gi but let it go :)

Mike Sigman
05-09-2008, 08:23 AM
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...To be fair, "auras" are considered to be the "ki". It works sorta like this:

The breathing, stretching, and the jin/kokyu are all related to the fascia networks of the body. Breathing (when done correctly) stretches and contracts those structures all over the body, puts tensions and pressures on them, etc. (same idea as in yoga, which is part of the same 'body-technology'). The formation of jin/kokyu paths is not possible in the fully-developed sense without the coordination and development of the fascia structures (which would also be why just doing "postures" in yoga is to miss out on a crucial part of yoga, just as doing external 'techniques' in Aikido would be to miss out on the whole idea of "ki" in "Aikido"). As these structures develop, a person's electromagnetic field structure also develops, hence the idea that you "strengthen your ki/qi" with these mind-directed aspects of movement and power. And incidentally, as these fascia structures develop, so does the resistance to blows, the difficulty in piercing/lacerating the skin, etc. (think how many Asian religions/quasi-religions demonstrate hooks in skin pulling loads, etc.).

The "emitted ki/qi" is a deliberate variation of the electro-magnetic field effect, so the point is that all of these things are tied together under the umbrella term "ki". Some people (not all) are supposed to be able to see or perceive the electromagnetic "aura" around people, to varying degrees. Personally, I don't know much about that other than the fact that it's considered a valid phenomenon by a lot of Asians, so I'm just reporting what I've heard and discussed over the years.

There's a book on the western scientific perspective that is pretty good about this phenomenon:

"Energy Medicine: The Scientific Basis" by James L. Oschman

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Laura Donohue
05-09-2008, 01:41 PM
Intriguing.

How does it translate in the way you execute technique ?

I have been observing and practicing with soft eyes, using my peripheral vision whenever possible. I haven't been focusing on my partner so much or even making eye contact as much as I had before or would in similar learning situations (previous training, dance etc...). I think that I remember techniques taught to me quicker, and am more aware of the needs of my partner's body that way.

It is difficult to separate this development from my progress however...

Eric Joyce
05-09-2008, 04:43 PM
Yes...and it looks like this (just kidding of course :)

Dewey
05-09-2008, 05:47 PM
http://www.geocities.com/bp_dewey/movie_i_see_dead_people.jpg

Laura Donohue
05-12-2008, 10:49 AM
Good, at least you're questioning... The mind is able to project all sorts of false information depending on many factors...if your dojo uses fluorescent lighting you may want to have some of the tubes checked, you may be sensitive to strobe effects

I payed more attention to the lighting, and I feel much better in all respects. There are fleurescents, then hanging incandescent lights which make it seem more than just fleuresecent. On top of that, we have huge windows which let in alot of natural light. When I am in there, my visual field does seem to throb or vibrate a little unnecessarily, kind of like the computer screen I am looking at now, but the natural and incandescent lights made it seem that I wasn't in that type of room, as fleurescent lit rooms often seem dim and without natural light. I asked others about the strobe effects, and they didn't notice much, but again, maybe I am just sensitive to this phenomena.

As to seeing "ki" I have come up with a theory. Someone reporting seeing things that others don't easily leads to that person being doubted or made fun of (as several funny posts have shown:) ), however nearly everyone can attribute some ways of knowing to intuition. Intuition can be also described as the sum of all of our senses put together (including sensory clues that our brain usually does not pay attention to: for example a dog barking in the far distance may alert us to a feeling that someone we know is coming home, even if we don't remember hearing the dog), our experience, our mind, and maybe a little bit more from our quantum universe.

If our mind can play tricks on our eyes, perhaps so can our intuition. My theory is that even though if looked close at any part of my visual field I would not "see" ki, when I relax my eyes and look at the entire room or around a whole person my brain recieves information from my intuition that is interpreted visually.

I feel that my question is answered, but I am wondering if others, given this new information would feel comfortable relating any similar experiences.

Living Light through Laughter,

Laura

gdandscompserv
05-12-2008, 11:30 AM
I can see ki-rly now the rain is gone.:D

Budd
05-12-2008, 11:38 PM
Laura,

I think it's always worthwhile to ask questions - that's how we learn, after all. I've seen a couple things related to visible-ki phenomena that I can't easily explain (and certainly can't do). To that point, I'd say if it's an interest of yours (from within aikido practice and /or perhaps even beyond), then by all means, keep asking questions, keep seeking . . .

And don't worry about it too much if there's some smiles and laughter involved along the way. Most of the time, they're laughing with you . . . (at least that's what they tell ME) . . .

The only thing I try to check with myself from time to time is how much I'm actually observing something versus how much I'm just really, really looking hard for it . . . sometimes that just takes a little more time and a few more questions to determine.

Laura Donohue
05-15-2008, 03:27 PM
As I have stated repeatedly, I am looking for truth, but I am actively doing that by simply and daily observing as I continue to practice, and in all other areas of my life as I develope my awareness. I am glad that an over the top and confusing phenomena (due to lighting) has been understood.

Humor has the trancendental ability to help us overcome difficulties. It also has the ability for us to laugh about topics that we would be ordinarily uncomfortable to think about. It also has the ability to intimidate people from taking situations sincerely. I will not continue any further commentary within the public arena at this time. If anyone would like to discuss this topic with me, they are completely free to send me a message privately.

ChrisHein
05-15-2008, 11:24 PM
I can often see the direction people are going to move. I don't mean to make it sound mystical or magical or anything, but I can (if I'm calm and in a receptive place) see a kind of "motion" around people; this is hard to describe. It doesn't happen just in the dojo, it happens all the time.

It's like because I understand their body language, I can see the motion they are going to make. I can also see how their "motion" interacts with other peoples when they do jiyu waza, or a ki no nagare practice.

No colors or anything fancy though.

Buck
05-15-2008, 11:43 PM
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...

Laura

I stayed away for this for a while because I want to find the right way of saying my experience with light. Wouldn't ya know it, I can't find the right or technical words. So I said to myself, you got a choice A) shut up. B) Go for it and hope for the best. It doesn't take a genius to figure out I will probably make a mess and embarrass myself of what I am about to say about colored glowing ki.

I am holding my nose and jumping in with both feet, btw, my eyes are closed. You might want to get comfortable.

When I was younger I studied a martial art, not Aikido, whose founder had a gold-ish yellow aura around him. This was seen in a picture taken of him while he was a live. Then there was a well done program on TV that was pro Kirlin photography. I had a college buddy of mine say when he got really angry he saw red. He saw everything as if he was looking through only the red side of 3-D glasses. I had talked to people in college who believed they could see different locations of the body had different colors. Though I never could see it, I think they were stoned though. These events effected the way I seen the unusual things I was seeing that I called Ki.

I noticed at different times of my life which I never spoken to anyone about that I was seeing different irregular circular spots of intense color in front of my eyes. Like a flashlight’s spot uniform in light minus the beam. All it was, was a large spot of solid color with soft edges floating in space in front of me. The spot would shift with my fixed gaze. The spot would move in sync with where I would look. It would fade away within a couple of minutes. Colors like green, gold-ish yellow, purple and red. When I was hurt or sick sometimes I would see red. When I wasn't sick, I saw green. If I was really hungry it would be purple, and goldish-yellow around other people like a body halo which would outline all or the upper part of a person.

What I heard and what I experience in terms of seeing colors fascinated me. I was greatly tickled and excited when I saw color around other people. I would be able to see this phenomenon I wouldn't fix my gaze indirectly upon someone and stare for a few seconds then I would see the gold-is-yellow light color traced around them. When they would move I would then see their image imprint in black sliver-ish color as it was left behind in the space they moved from. And I never knew what it was, but I felt I could find out about this on my own. I didn’t want not tell anyone.

Left to my own thinking I wanted to know this awesome ability I had. What I came up with, for the reason of seeing the light colors and the imprints from time to time, had be auras of mystical energies. I based this on my exposure to Kirlin photography phenomenon and Indian mysticism of chakras etc. After all the reading and digging I did, I was sure I was seeing auras that had mystical properties, I felt that I was able to see auras of ki, ki being related to chakras and that of what I was told in Aikido class. I kept it to myself for many years what I saw. I was satisfied and convinced my conclusions where the facts for what I was seeing. I thought I had a pretty strong ship.

Ya know I forgot when, but sometime later after my great revelation, I took a photography class. It just happened the instructor was a Kirlin photography geek. He had discussed the recent findings of the paranormal phenomenon of Kirlin photography not being paranormal at all as thought. There was some solid scientific evidence that the orange color light caught on film coming from the finger tips was not paranormal after all. Then in the same class I found out that the gold-ish yellow light / halo emitting from the body of the other martial art founder in the photograph can be easily replicated. It was an artistic technique of photography. At this point I my ship of confidence about the aura was starting to leak.

As more time went by, I got a girlfriend that I was close too, and unlike allot of sensible men I started talking intimately one evening to her about my private male thoughts, like seeing these color auras and ghostly impressions. I told her, I thought it was a special gift, and because I was in the martial arts I was working on it so I can use it to enhance my martial skill, it was called Ki. I told her in all seriousness. She thought about what I said for a second and having an IQ that would make a Sunday bowler jealous, giggled. That one giggle was the sound of the alarm that my ship was about to be sunk. The abandon ship alarm.

You see, having a girlfriend who was smarter then me and most everyone else I know, was about to shed some serious light on my situation. She started off to explain how I was able to see these colored auras and ghostly imagines by saying how the eye worked and how light worked as if I was a 4th grader in her class. Then she went on in detail explaining all the scientific and biological reasons for me seeing color which a lot of people can see though not everyone is able to see. In such great detail and knowledge I later had to find my old college text books to completely understand what she was saying. Bottom line was I was seeing different waves of light, call it seeing swatches of the rainbow, and not the whole rainbow. This happened to be true for the light around people too. And the trace image left in space after a person moved had to do with light and the eye too, and other people see it. What she pointed out to me and what I didn’t realize was when I was seeing this color usually when in a room with bright lighting and the room had a light colored background, and people where usually in light colored clothing. It enhanced the ability of the eye to see light waves. It was nothing special that I could see these colors. Now about my friend getting mad and seeing red that too was explained and it made sense. She was telling I should have realized the colors and the ghostly images that I seeing wasn’t auras or ki at all.

When I thought about it, it was 20/20 hind sight. I couldn’t believe I over look what she told me. I never clued into when I seen the colors I was in a bright lighted room, or those I looked at where wearing white. All of which were conditions I never considered. As for the trace images, I seen it was pointed out that it was the similar effect to being in a bright lighted area and then close the eyes and after doing that what you see is a reverse image. It was all due to how my eye worked. How could I have over-looked that when I seen the gold-ish yellow halo around people it was usually in the dojo, where it is in a white room and people are wearing white gis. How could I have thought that I could use color to enhance my Aikido power. Color isn’t a power, color is something experienced by the eye. How could I have over-looked something so obvious. Or when the light was different or dim I was less likely to see those colors. I didn’t pay attention to the obvious, instead I sought out answers in areas that seemed to id what I was seeing, and had an explanation and told how to use it.

After I thought about my errors, I realized how easily it is to plug in data and not see you’re getting the right interpretation for an explanation. I think this condition effects all walks of man. We seek to understand what we don’t know by the little we do know in terms we set, in terms of familiarity. I don’t think ki can be seen. I know there is an Aikido group that is really into defining ki. But, I think ki isn’t something detected by the eye, but rather symbolized through the imagination for a better understanding, like a pie chart makes it easier to understand data.

boyana
05-16-2008, 01:26 AM
Would it be stupid if I say,that some people in my Dojo,have some
KI in them,maybe I can not see it.But in my mind,yes I can see it!

It is very interesting.

Buck
05-16-2008, 07:08 AM
When I said ki isn't something detected by the eye, I was saying it isn't color. It isn't auras etc. What I understand of ki it is an old Japanese word for something that is a translation of an old Chinese word for Chi which is something not clearly defined or agreed upon really at anytime. The Chinese character for Chi shows the physical action of cooking rice, and not of colored spots or ghostly impressions like I still see. That is my personal experience. I thought I would share and hoping it was interesting.

jennifer paige smith
05-16-2008, 10:46 AM
When I said ki isn't something detected by the eye, I was saying it isn't color. It isn't auras etc. What I understand of ki it is an old Japanese word for something that is a translation of an old Chinese word for Chi which is something not clearly defined or agreed upon really at anytime. The Chinese character for Chi shows the physical action of cooking rice, and not of colored spots or ghostly impressions like I still see. That is my personal experience. I thought I would share and hoping it was interesting.

That is interesting. It is also interesting to note that the character for Ki is not only showing the physical action of cooking the rice; it depicts the element of steam that rises from the process. One supposes steam could be said to be a 'color' or a vapor that surrounds the 'physical'.In which case it is discernible.
As for agreement about what ki and chi (prana) is at any given place and time, the culture where the energy arises uses it's own dialectic to comprehend and express the element. This changes;the existence of essential energy does not. In which case you might say it's Aiki in language.
Good thoughts.
Jen

Mike Sigman
05-16-2008, 10:54 AM
... the character for Ki is not only showing the physical action of cooking the rice; it depicts the element of steam that rises from the process. "Pressure". Qi is often described as "air pressure" since that's a lot of what is used (in the breathing processes, stretches, etc.) to develop the qi. When you do breathing exercises, it's not just the inhale-exhale that is important... it's how you use the pressure things. The development of the fascia structure from the breathing processes affects your "aura". But, whatever... you can't get "air pressure" into a bottle that is already full.

jennifer paige smith
05-16-2008, 10:56 AM
I have been observing and practicing with soft eyes, using my peripheral vision whenever possible. I haven't been focusing on my partner so much or even making eye contact as much as I had before or would in similar learning situations (previous training, dance etc...). I think that I remember techniques taught to me quicker, and am more aware of the needs of my partner's body that way.

It is difficult to separate this development from my progress however...

It is important not to get over involved with observing one's own development. Rather allowing oneself to develop and taking a time to time reflection of the entire experince. Otherwise you cut yourself off from a larger body of information presenting itelf in the moment.
When practicing in sound principles within the classic body of aikido there are skills that include the exercises you are giving yourself. Like with the eyes. Yet, you may 'see' more if you turn over your thoughts to the simple practice of mind,body(eye) alignment.
Not tht your creative observations and enoyable initiative don't have their place and inspiration. They do and I encourage the exploration. I firstly encourage grounded principles in form. In that order you may root, grow, and radiate; like a beautiful flower cultivated in rich,developed soil.
Looks to me like you have a rich practice that will be a wonderful place for us all to check out now and again.
Thanks for sharing.
Gambatte!
Jen

John Brockington
05-16-2008, 12:02 PM
Phillip-

Don't downplay your visual observations necessarily. I would be interested to know if you have tried changing the ambient lighting in similar situations and whether or not this influenced your perceptions. The fact that you noticed these colors when you were sick, hungry, etc. (and presumably not in a dojo with bright light and white gi's) suggests you may be a Synaesthete. This is a well documented neurologic condition, described beautifully by Luria in his book on a Russian individual identified as S. who was a multiple synaesthete. S. would see colors as people spoke, for example. I heard one synasthete say that they used to see certain colors when they saw specific numbers, seven always provoked blue for example, frequently as a child but less so now as an adult, mainly when they are fatigued now.

John

Ketsan
05-16-2008, 07:44 PM
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...

Laura

I once saw a golden image of my uke attacking about a second before he did.

Buck
05-16-2008, 08:16 PM
John,

Wow, very interesting to know about the synaesthete experience. I have heard of a savant who associated numbers with colors. But I thought that was part of being a savant, and didn't know there was a name for such an experience. And by no means am I a savant.

Thanks, I am going to look into synaesthete some more it has got my curiosity up.

Travis Johnson
05-17-2008, 02:08 AM
It's great to see these posts!! Yes, I have seen "auras" as well, around many people, plants, animals, and other objects as well. Especially in aikido. It's true, for me it is much easier to see them against a non-distracting background, such as a white wall, or against the blue sky on a sunny day. Aikido dojos have awesome lighting for viewing this energy.

There came a point when I realized I wasn't fabricating these images with my mind. I mean, if they're not real, then my mind apparently does a damn good job of fooling me.

Best Regards,
Enjoy training...

-Travis

Buck
05-17-2008, 08:31 PM
Phillip-

Don't downplay your visual observations necessarily. I would be interested to know if you have tried changing the ambient lighting in similar situations and whether or not this influenced your perceptions. The fact that you noticed these colors when you were sick, hungry, etc. (and presumably not in a dojo with bright light and white gi's) suggests you may be a Synaesthete. This is a well documented neurologic condition, described beautifully by Luria in his book on a Russian individual identified as S. who was a multiple synaesthete. S. would see colors as people spoke, for example. I heard one synasthete say that they used to see certain colors when they saw specific numbers, seven always provoked blue for example, frequently as a child but less so now as an adult, mainly when they are fatigued now.

John

John,

I did some snooping into Synaesthete and I have found out that I don't think I am. I don't associate colors with numbers for example. And because all humans have this ability in the womb most of us lose it in adulthood so maybe at one time I was, but not now. For these reasons, Synaesthete are mostly non right handed, women, it runs in families-genetically and people with high intelligence. I am right handed, and it doesn't run in my family and I am of average college level I.Q. I figure the colors I are visible light waves. The gold is some where in between yellow and orange waves.

John, I think it was awesome you said I might be experiencing Synaesthete. It was something I never knew about, and it is great you share with me something you knew. My world is a little broader now. Thanks.

Buck
05-17-2008, 08:55 PM
After John's enlightening suggestion, I think what I see is visible light waves as spots. I don't think I am seeing ki or thing else then visible light. I don't think Ki can be seen in this way. The Chinese picture character for Chi which Ki comes from show rice cooking. I know there has been many a debate on what Ki is and isn't. For me Ki is another word for power, not force, but power. Like it takes heat, a container, water, to make rice soft and appetizing. The power of the heat source to heat the water to make it boil to soften the rice is for me is Chi base on the Chinese character for Chi.

The point am trying to make is seen from the Chinese characters that Chi is not color, but power (what ever that power is). Yes, I think you can see Ki if it is power. I think it has to be power because it is associated with fighting. Oh add Kiai that is a power and not a color. Power defeats the person your fighting. I don't see how color can defeat a person. The only way I see color play a role in martial arts is a measurement of Ki/power radiating from the body, but even then I can't wrap my head around how color would be able to do that. How could that help a person's ability to fight off an attack. And not everyone sees color.

FWIW that is my reasoning anyway on seeing Ki.

Mike Sigman
05-18-2008, 11:54 AM
I once saw a golden image of my uke attacking about a second before he did.I once saw a man walking with a cow and he waved a stick and turned the cow into a pasture.:cool:

Kevin Leavitt
05-18-2008, 03:12 PM
It's not have it happen once....but consistently that matters...in a way that is useful habitually.

Buck
05-18-2008, 06:52 PM
If you can't see ki, of course you could feel it. Colors also might be used for spiritual means.

Kevin Leavitt
05-18-2008, 07:59 PM
LSD also supposedly helps in this department, but I think it is out of vogue now.

Mike Sigman
05-18-2008, 08:03 PM
LSD also supposedly helps in this department, but I think it is out of vogue now.If Vogue doesn't have it, Sweet Sixteen will. ;)

eyrie
05-18-2008, 08:21 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24378509/

jennifer paige smith
05-18-2008, 08:21 PM
LSD also supposedly helps in this department, but I think it is out of vogue now.

Thizzz is all the rage.

Kevin Leavitt
05-18-2008, 08:30 PM
read the link closely.

Hoffman said: "I had the impression I was rooted to the spot. But my assistant told me we were actually going very fast."


See...rooted. hmmmmm

Ryan Sanford
05-18-2008, 09:36 PM
LSD also supposedly helps in this department, but I think it is out of vogue now.

Oh man, what a sight that would be, watching someone training like that.

"I swear man, I was my uke!" :D

happysod
05-19-2008, 03:50 AM
I suddenly feel like I'm the army major in Monty Python, mainly because I have the overwhelming urge to shout "Now stop this, it's all getting very silly..." Still, a useful quote for any fellow skeptics reading this thread...

The most costly of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind. - H.L. (Henry Lewis) Mencken

I of course apologise in advance to the true believers, I blame an unhealthy need of peer-reviewed research and double-blind testing

Buck
05-19-2008, 07:02 AM
For a while know, I have thought that I could see auras, not in the colored sense that certain clairvoyant individuals claim, and not exactly with my eyes, but just knew they were there.

Now in the dojo, I seem to see tracers of our body movements, and projections of body language, and am wondering if this is just a trick of my eyes wanting to see stuff that my Sensei says is there. I thirst for all of this so badly, that I want to be careful that I don't get carried away to fantasy land.

I shared these thoughts to a trusted friend, and he said he could see ki too, and that the simple white walls of our dojo enhanced that, as we didn't have color to distract our eyes. If color and lights distract us all the time, especially if our attention is focused on other matters, does that mean that its still there the whole time, and that our minds "tune it out"? If we "tune it out", how can we actively "tune in"?

If anyone has experience or thoughts on these matters, I would love your input...

Laura

Now that the comedians have taken the stage and before they get carried away, Laura I hope you got some good input. Last comment from me, I would say if color and light is distracting the mind it would be only until it was so common it went un-noticed.

I thought you bring up a good subject, it was well thought out.

Peter Cina
05-28-2008, 12:35 PM
Laura - I will share what I can based on many years of reasearch when I was younger, supported by my own direct, first hand experience.
Our "physical" body is but part of the energy that coalesces around our essential being (our "I", spirit, soul, etc.) We have various "subtle bodies" - energy bodies consisting of matter that is less dense than what we know of as normal physical matter. They vibrate at different frequencies, the way there are different wavelenghts of light, including those which our normal perceptual apparatus do not register, and sounds beyond our normal hearing abilities. The multicolored human "aura" which clairvoyants perceive is one or more of these subtle energy bodies.
It is interesting to note that both Western, Christian mystics (i.e. Theosophists) and Eastern (Hindu, Yogic, Buddhist) spititualists' accounts of these phenomena agree to a very large degree. We are somewhat more familiar with the Eastern elucidations of Chakras, which are intimately connected with the subtle energy bodies, but they also were aware of "auras". And the Western, Christian mystics also wrote alot about the Chakras too.
The subtle bodies are not limited to occupying the same physical space as the physical body. The physical body, being densest, is the most compact; the vairous subtle bodies are less compact, based on their varying degrees of density. Thus, they are oftern peceived as being outside of the physical body. The subtle body closest in density, and thus is size and shape to the physical body, has by some been called the "health aura". It is usually perceived as colorless and transparent, in my experience. Open your fingers ("V" shape) and look between them at an object in the distance. If you focus on the detail you can often observe, especially in a bright, outdoor environment, a distortion of the light that passes close to the fingers, in comparsion to the light that passes through the center of the "V". This is similar to the distortion of the light you see through heat rising off hot pavement. I don't think the distortion is caused by heat though, but by the light passing through the subtle body matter.
It may be that what you are seeing is this "health aura". Does this mean you are seeing "Ki"? We would first have to agree on what "Ki" is before we could even approach that question. And that is no easy task. Nothing in my experience causes me to suspect that the vague perception of this subtle body is either a particular help or hinderance to your Aikido practice, as long as you don't get distracted by your peception of it.
My purpose in writing this is to assure you that there is no reason to think that your mind is making this up (as an earlier respondent suggested). I find it sad that so many people believe that because a perceptual experience is not commonly shared by most of humanity, that it is not-real but simply the product of an overactive imagination. And I prefer to counter such opinions when I am able to.

- Peter

miratim
05-28-2008, 02:10 PM
. It is usually perceived as colorless and transparent, in my experience. Open your fingers ("V" shape) and look between them at an object in the distance. If you focus on the detail you can often observe, especially in a bright, outdoor environment, a distortion of the light that passes close to the fingers, in comparsion to the light that passes through the center of the "V". This is similar to the distortion of the light you see through heat rising off hot pavement. I don't think the distortion is caused by heat though, but by the light passing through the subtle body matter.
It may be that what you are seeing is this "health aura".

What? Isn't that just diffraction? Take two pencils and do the same thing. You see the same distortion, right? Does the pencil have an aura?

happysod
05-29-2008, 09:23 AM
I find it sad that so many people believe that because a perceptual experience is not commonly shared by most of humanity, that it is not-real but simply the product of an overactive imagination. And I prefer to counter such opinions when I am able toNot just imagination, many people suffering from either food or water deprivation (including many of the mystics you mentioned) or extremes of pain or anxiety also report many shared perceptions - not really very strange as we're all provided with more or less the same biological wiring and when it goes on the fritz, the likelyhood is that it will fail in the same fashion.Nothing in my experience causes me to suspect that the vague perception of this subtle body is either a particular help or hinderance to your Aikido practice, as long as you don't get distracted by your peception of it.At least here we can agree.

You want to get good at anything, practice hard and practice a lot. You want to get good at a martial art, go out and get yourself hurt a few times, works wonders for the reflexes.

John Brockington
05-29-2008, 12:34 PM
"Perception refers to the ability to sense a stimulus regardless of whether the stimulus is recognized. Recognition of a stimulus is a sequential process that begins with perception and progresses through stages of increasing refinement."
Cummings, J. "Concise Guide to Neuropsychiatry and Behavioral Neurology" 2nd ed, 2002.

"Perception may be accurate, but interpretation flawed."
Brockington, J. "Opinions in Behavioral Neurology" 1st ed. 2008.

HL1978
05-29-2008, 11:20 PM
You can absolutely see ki, in that you can see its effects on other people, but you need to know how to generate that sort of power.

Once you understand the difference in sensation between muscular power and "ki", from both uke and nage, then it becomes easier to visualize.

I am not refering to seeing ki in a metaphysical sense, but the very real physical skill.

judojo
05-31-2008, 07:22 AM
Dear Sensei Jennifer Smith, I love American Aikido for innovations of Traditional Aikido. The topic about the Ki , we can see this during bunkai and kihon practices. This flow of movement is soft and not an opposition to the uke uchi. This is Chikara the power that made the Tore and Nage. God Bless America. Reynaldo Ligoro Albano

Enrique Antonio Reyes
06-02-2008, 01:17 AM
Honestly, I don't think so...but I believe that you can feel it...

They say that when your KI is flowing you feel like you are in the "zone" NBA players say that when they are in the "zone" they can see that the basketball ring is bigger than usual. Some Karatekas in competition say that they see their opponents in slow motion...maybe that's the effect of KI as to how you see...

Sincerely,

Iking

jennifer paige smith
06-02-2008, 06:45 PM
Dear Sensei Jennifer Smith, I love American Aikido for innovations of Traditional Aikido. The topic about the Ki , we can see this during bunkai and kihon practices. This flow of movement is soft and not an opposition to the uke uchi. This is Chikara the power that made the Tore and Nage. God Bless America. Reynaldo Ligoro Albano

chikara "girl/feminine power"
ryoku "absorptive power"

Let's call it expressions of vibration; or listening, and seeing, and breathing in accord......I sense 'ki' in many fashions. one of which is seeing. for me it is often accompanied by an auditory sensation that 'translates' intention as if intention were a telegraph.

which, for me, it is.

all of this on the backbone of solid, screaming, classic aikido.

John Connolly
06-03-2008, 04:22 AM
chikara "girl/feminine power"
ryoku "absorptive power"

Let's call it expressions of vibration; or listening, and seeing, and breathing in accord......I sense 'ki' in many fashions. one of which is seeing. for me it is often accompanied by an auditory sensation that 'translates' intention as if intention were a telegraph.

which, for me, it is.

all of this on the backbone of solid, screaming, classic aikido.

I love your last line there!

Without dragging in to much mystic mumbo-jumbo (…not a big fan of aura discussions), I completely agree with you (except I don’t relate it to seeing/feeling ki, as much as intent, power, muscularity, stiffness/looseness, and overall state of mind, both during figuring out proper maai and when in grappling/striking range (if ki is a good word for that for you, I’m alright with that. Heh heh. I just can’t win a ki discussion on Aikiweb!).

An anecdotal tale from today on awareness and intent:

I am finally finishing up my BA (at 37 and 1/2 years old). My emphasis is fine arts, such as painting, printmaking, drawing, and sometimes making hideous animatronic dolls. My class is having a couple gallery shows coming up this weekend and the next. We met at the gallery space today to discuss cleaning and art-hanging, all 25 or so of us, and a stranger appeared in our midst. He was pleasant, inquisitive, and was generally unobtrusive, but he seemed to be unclear of where he was, or what we were doing, he just seemed to be enjoying the company and the little bits of interaction he was able to eek out of the group (virtually none, as is often the case here in the NW, people who are strange or uncomfortable often get ignored, often to the detriment of folks’ awareness of their presence/potential danger). At one point in our meeting at the gallery space, we are all gathered and discussing strategy, and the stranger walks right into the middle of our circle, stares at the floor, smiles, and then points his hand to the floor and makes shooting gestures, as though he were squeezing a trigger. I had been figuring out how fast and with how much force I could get to him as soon as I saw him (I operate in this way anyway from formerly being a bouncer and living in bad neighborhoods), and now I made sure of his lack of weapons and really honed into how I could disrupt him/take him out, should a weapon appear.

Luckily, it was an incredibly tedious class discussion about cleaning/art hanging duties, and he grew bored and left, which left me very relieved (I have been labeled the “bad guy'/alpha male dill-weed, in past situations when I’ve had to step up and escort the problem away). However, when I mentioned the stranger who literally stepped into the ring of all us while we were talking, and pantomimed shooting an imaginary adversary on the floor… nearly everyone looked puzzled. They had no clue of the incident or the person. Luckily, I had a couple of people to whom I pointed him out to from the onset, in case of potential difficulties, that remembered him and affirmed my statement to the rest of the class. I mentioned the (maybe schizoid) person in an attempt to get my class security conscious for our show, as we are downtown in Olympia; not exactly the crazy muscular bustle of Chicago, or the straight meanness and crime of St. Louis, but there are a fair number of transients, tweekers, and violent drunks. After confirmation by my clued-in witnesses, we all agreed to apply more personnel to each gallery shift, and to close the gallery before the bar next door does last-call. Without awareness and the ability to judge the strength and intent of others, anyone can be a sitting duck.

Where I come from, this is called applied “street smarts”.

jennifer paige smith
06-03-2008, 10:21 AM
I love your last line there!

Without dragging in to much mystic mumbo-jumbo (…not a big fan of aura discussions), I completely agree with you (except I don’t relate it to seeing/feeling ki, as much as intent, power, muscularity, stiffness/looseness, and overall state of mind, both during figuring out proper maai and when in grappling/striking range (if ki is a good word for that for you, I’m alright with that. Heh heh. I just can’t win a ki discussion on Aikiweb!).

An anecdotal tale from today on awareness and intent:

I am finally finishing up my BA (at 37 and 1/2 years old). My emphasis is fine arts, such as painting, printmaking, drawing, and sometimes making hideous animatronic dolls. My class is having a couple gallery shows coming up this weekend and the next. We met at the gallery space today to discuss cleaning and art-hanging, all 25 or so of us, and a stranger appeared in our midst. He was pleasant, inquisitive, and was generally unobtrusive, but he seemed to be unclear of where he was, or what we were doing, he just seemed to be enjoying the company and the little bits of interaction he was able to eek out of the group (virtually none, as is often the case here in the NW, people who are strange or uncomfortable often get ignored, often to the detriment of folks’ awareness of their presence/potential danger). At one point in our meeting at the gallery space, we are all gathered and discussing strategy, and the stranger walks right into the middle of our circle, stares at the floor, smiles, and then points his hand to the floor and makes shooting gestures, as though he were squeezing a trigger. I had been figuring out how fast and with how much force I could get to him as soon as I saw him (I operate in this way anyway from formerly being a bouncer and living in bad neighborhoods), and now I made sure of his lack of weapons and really honed into how I could disrupt him/take him out, should a weapon appear.

Luckily, it was an incredibly tedious class discussion about cleaning/art hanging duties, and he grew bored and left, which left me very relieved (I have been labeled the “bad guy'/alpha male dill-weed, in past situations when I’ve had to step up and escort the problem away). However, when I mentioned the stranger who literally stepped into the ring of all us while we were talking, and pantomimed shooting an imaginary adversary on the floor… nearly everyone looked puzzled. They had no clue of the incident or the person. Luckily, I had a couple of people to whom I pointed him out to from the onset, in case of potential difficulties, that remembered him and affirmed my statement to the rest of the class. I mentioned the (maybe schizoid) person in an attempt to get my class security conscious for our show, as we are downtown in Olympia; not exactly the crazy muscular bustle of Chicago, or the straight meanness and crime of St. Louis, but there are a fair number of transients, tweekers, and violent drunks. After confirmation by my clued-in witnesses, we all agreed to apply more personnel to each gallery shift, and to close the gallery before the bar next door does last-call. Without awareness and the ability to judge the strength and intent of others, anyone can be a sitting duck.

Where I come from, this is called applied “street smarts”.

Art is soooo dangerous and creative people should be stopped.

Now, all opinions aside:) , thanks for the story.

I'm not, despite some online appearances, into 'mumbo-jumbo' myself. I am into developing an ability to verbally express my experiences as they have developed through out my entire life; which has been rather colorful to this date.
I've cleaned the clock of more than one person for more than one reason in more than one fashion. The development of my responses have intrigued me as they have evolved.

I came from a tough neighborhood known for drugs, gangs, and other poverty bi-products and I have a genetic drive for justice. Put that together and you've got a 'tough girl'. But that isn't the place in me that responds anymore. It is close by. Definitely present, but all things considered the gifts of feeling, hearing, and discerning wisdom, known to me as the voice of nature; be it the nature of a situation, the nature of an individual, or the peace of nature that is the backdrop for all life, has been the strongest novitiate in my 'inner monestary' and with it comes some fairly startling gifts of insight, vision and courageous love.
I can only comment from my own path which has evolved from street fighting, to mat-fighting, to mat-harmonizing, to pre-emptive reconciliation and beyond....i hope. I've hit the ground hard and that's where truth has tended to rise up for me. Not from the 'blossoms of the sky on a summer day'( my quote).

I've refined my own path from the ground up and I teach it that way too. Because of that I advocate for strong training, precise training, and an observance of natural phenomena at a level that is tangible to the practicioner. Clean Aikido gets the job done and I love it. In the dojo, aikido practice should always be first. I love how it grows and changes and is always, somehow, one step ahead.

I really enjoyed your story! Nice you had a 'reality check' crew.

Now kick ass and do some art!!!!!!

Stefan Stenudd
06-05-2008, 11:18 AM
As is evident in the many posts on this thread, there are so many ways to experience ki. There are also very many kinds of ideas about a life energy, or life force - from the distant dawn of human thought up to present time, and in just about every society.

I made sort of an encyclopedia of ki (qi) synonyms, where I included concepts similar to that of ki, but also concepts that are mistakenly reported to be. It starts here:
http://www.qi-energy.info/qi-synonyms.htm

I don't pretend my little encyclopedia to be complete, but I believe that the most important and relevant examples are there - as well as some very peripheral and irrelevant. It's a jungle...

Martin Goodyear
06-07-2008, 12:31 PM
Laura's experience reminds me of a Zen story: a monk went to his master to report his experience of a luminous vision of the Buddha, and was told "Keep practicing, it will go away".

Actually, I've had similar experiences, which I put down to being a bit sensitive and prone to headaches, and having a history of psychedelic drug use. Never have such visual effects proved useful to me on the mat.

What I am confident that I DO see, is a Quality of Movement that I think of as ki (which is especially obvious when a bokken is used), and this I do find useful in an inspirational/ aspirational sort of way.

Interestingly, I didn't think the Shaolin monks had it when I saw them, but that some boxers do. My personal take on ki (and, lets face it, it's a personal thing) is very similar to Stephan Stenudd's - "Ether of Intention"; like it.

Keep practicing, it will go away,
Martin.

Emilia
07-07-2008, 10:26 AM
I think :)) I saw ki. Pure and transparent in it's raw form. The energy from which everything is created, ready to use everytime and everywhere. Omnipresent and omnipotenet, for everyone ready and able to use it.
That was my vision while standing and considering to go or not to go to dojo that day :) (the consideration because of my broken finger of course :) ).
Emilia