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numazu
05-05-2008, 06:08 PM
Hello. I am a newbie to this forum. There are alot of very knowledgeable people out there so thought I might ask this question:
I have done Shorinji Kempo (which unfortuantely I cant do in my city anymore) and I found it fun and interesting. They have a base in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu and it differs from Aikido in that the person grabbing your wrist or collar offers resistance. They pull you into their body (without going as far as Judo lining up for a hip throw).

I found this suited me more than the Aikido I took because I found in Aikido there wasn't any resistance. I like to feel someone has a hold of me. This is not to disparage Aikido because there were aspects of Aikido I much prefer over Shorinji also.

So...my question is...(took a while to get there):
Which style of Aikido offers the most resistance in partner training?
(the goal being to challenge someones balance without being randori free style). I guess you could classify my preference to being somewhere between a soft and hard style. Not as soft as Ki Aikido and not as hard as Judo.

My thoughts are that either Shodokan or Yoshinkan would be the best bet? Any ideas???

Thanks for your time.:)

mickeygelum
05-05-2008, 07:00 PM
My thoughts are that either Shodokan or Yoshinkan would be the best bet?

Your thoughts are the best thoughts.

Train well,

Mickey

Lyle Bogin
05-05-2008, 07:15 PM
I must resist answering this question ;)

eschatts
05-05-2008, 08:13 PM
When you first start Aikido, the idea is to learn the technique. And are you progress the resistance is turned up. It is this way in our dojo. You have to know your audience.

I know there are some nights when we are trying to kill each other. The problem is that when you turn it to 11, people can get hurt. So there has to be a balance. I do like resistence. There are some things in Aikido that work very well when the intensity is turned up. Some things don't work so well. So then you need to adapt.

I don't think there is any martial art where the resistance is there all the time. You have to learn, no matter what martial art you are doing. I think the same is for Aikido.

DonMagee
05-06-2008, 06:57 AM
I'd suggest shopping around to see what you like and do not like. Clubs are different, even within the same style. You might find one that is very hard and another that is so soft it could be a dance class.

I do however agree with you about the grabs. It has been my experience that a lot of grabs do not have purpose. Even within the confines of a drill. I've been a huge advocate of grabbing with a purpose in mind and executing that purpose during the drill (with a varying level of speed and power based on your partners ability). I always ask for motivation when asked to grab. A grab in itself is not an attack, it is a transition to an attack. So why am I grabbing you? Do I want to punch you in the face? Do I want to pull you into me and bind you? Am I trying to take you down? The goal of the grab will change the energy of the grab, and thus the technique being worked on.

tuturuhan
05-06-2008, 07:18 AM
I'd suggest shopping around to see what you like and do not like. Clubs are different, even within the same style. You might find one that is very hard and another that is so soft it could be a dance class.

I do however agree with you about the grabs. It has been my experience that a lot of grabs do not have purpose. Even within the confines of a drill. I've been a huge advocate of grabbing with a purpose in mind and executing that purpose during the drill (with a varying level of speed and power based on your partners ability). I always ask for motivation when asked to grab. A grab in itself is not an attack, it is a transition to an attack. So why am I grabbing you? Do I want to punch you in the face? Do I want to pull you into me and bind you? Am I trying to take you down? The goal of the grab will change the energy of the grab, and thus the technique being worked on.

Don,

Point of contention...a GRAB can also be an iron grip that tears into the arm or body. It can also be a soft penetration to pressure points and an attack to the nervous system.

Though, overall I "highly agree" with your practical use of a grab as a transition. Most certainly, the intermediate does not understand this concept of "transition and pivot point" allowing the flexibility to change the attack.

best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

rob_liberti
05-06-2008, 07:33 AM
And what of the purpose of the study of being grabbed? What do you plan to do with your body to deal with it? If you are grabbed with high resistance so it feels like you are stuck in the mud, what is your plan? Do you turn up your arm muscles? Do you swivel your hips hoping for better position? Do you slap your partner to "soften him up"? - becuase if those are your choices, I'm not sure finding more resistance is going to help you progress all that much. If you are going to coordinate your body structure and deal with that grab from inside out, and a you can do it so easily on a weak or normal grab that you simply need a very strong grab now to continue to make progress, then by all means find a school with sempai who can hold you while standing as coordinated as you are. I would imagine that will help you out a lot. -Rob

Ron Tisdale
05-06-2008, 08:21 AM
Hi Alastair,

I would recommend finding a Yoshinkan dojo. Shodokan would also probably fit the bill, but I am not as familiar with that style.

Typically, most Yoshinkan waza that have grabbing attacks have uke pushing, pulling or holding. While the basics waza tend to be highly scripted, they do provide an opportunity to start to realize the power available from your body to match your strong lines against uke's weak lines, and so move even when faced with strong grabbing attacks. Omote (ichi) tends to come from pulling attacks, Ura (ni) tends to come from pushing attacks. Holding can yield either, depending on what you do in your body to deal with the hold. More advanced kata would include grabbing and striking attacks, which can be a lot of fun.

Another style of aikido that likes strong grabs is the Iwama style. From what little experience I have with that style, I would highly recommend it. I have a review of an Iwama dojo in France around somewhere...I'll post a link in a few.

Also, if you can find a style of Daito ryu that maintains it's jujutsu base (like the Mainline under Kondo Sensei), many of their attacks actually have uke trying to follow up with the rest of the attack, not just grabbing. At least at some of the open seminars that I attended, that was a focus. Not just to grab, but to grab and prevent a weapon from being drawn, or to grab, throw, and choke.

I should also note that there are "standard" Aikikai dojo that practice some or all of the things I mentioned...so you should check out what is available in your area, visit, and make your decision accordingly.

Best,
Ron

Demetrio Cereijo
05-06-2008, 10:50 AM
Another style of aikido that likes strong grabs is the Iwama style.

If tori's hand doesn't turn to purple in katatedori, this is a girly grab :)

so you should check out what is available in your area, visit, and make your decision accordingly.
Seconded.

Good luck.

Flintstone
05-07-2008, 02:05 AM
I have done Shorinji Kempo (which unfortuantely I cant do in my city anymore) and I found it fun and interesting. They have a base in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu
Lucky you. Shorinji Kempo is a very interesting style, very close to what I do.

My thoughts are that either Shodokan or Yoshinkan would be the best bet? Any ideas???
I would add to your list Yoseikan and Iwama Ryu. Shodokan, Yoshinkan and Yoseikan are all different but the same, hard style if you like the tag. Iwama Ryu is clearly more evolved but technically very related to the other three.

Guess it's time to shop around...

Ron Tisdale
05-07-2008, 10:33 AM
Iwama Ryu is clearly more evolved

:D Oh REALLY??? :D

Best,
Ron

ChrisHein
05-07-2008, 10:38 AM
Most Iwama people love to grab as hard as they can, and hold you there, forever.

However in a shodokan school, you're more likely to find functional resistance.

L. Camejo
05-07-2008, 08:26 PM
Shodokan, Yoshinkan and Yoseikan are all different but the same, hard style if you like the tag. Iwama Ryu is clearly more evolved but technically very related to the other three. More evolved???

Care to explain that?

However in a shodokan school, you're more likely to find functional resistance.Chris has a point here. In fact in Shodokan one would learn how to use relaxation, sensitivity and grounding as a form of "resistance" without needing excessive upper body musculature.

numazu
05-08-2008, 04:36 AM
Thank you to everyone for your suggestions and advice. Some good food for thought. I found both a Shodokan and Yoshinkan dojo's not far away. SO I am going to pay a visit. It will probably just come down to which instructor I feel good with. Preferably one with a bit of a sense of humour!
One more little question I have, more out of interest. Does Shodokan have any 'anti judo' locks? I notice the randori is quite judo like in its free form. If someone went fro a hip throw I could imagine some Shodokan people could handle that quite well.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-08-2008, 06:01 AM
Iwama Ryu is clearly more evolved.....
:rolleyes:
Most Iwama people love to grab as hard as they can, and hold you there, forever.
It's only a small , but important, aspect of training. Kotai Keiko. For beginners (and it's not about "upper body musculature").

L. Camejo
05-08-2008, 09:08 AM
One more little question I have, more out of interest. Does Shodokan have any 'anti judo' locks? I notice the randori is quite judo like in its free form. If someone went fro a hip throw I could imagine some Shodokan people could handle that quite well.Hi Alastair,

Regarding your question, Tomiki (founder of Shodokan) saw Aikido and Judo as sharing fundamentally the same principles, with applicable techniques being determined mainly by distance or ma ai. In this case, Aiki waza would be performed ideally at arm's length using tegatana, Judo type waza would be executed inside of this range (i.e. closer range), which would allow all the leg sweeps, reaps, hip throws etc. to be viable.

Imho if one could get in close enough to even attempt a Judo hip-throw it would mean that ones control of ma ai (distance) has already failed, which makes it more than likely that ones Aiki waza will also fail.

Imho the Judoka should ideally be stopped (i.e. Aiki waza should be executed) before he got into gripping range to execute any sort of kuzushi for a hip throw.

Just my 2 cents.

Ron Tisdale
05-08-2008, 09:58 AM
The main line school of Daito ryu does include "anti judo" waza, and not at arm's length. BUT it does utilize atemi rather heavily in these circumstances. It is my opinion also that body skills of the type Akuzawa Sensei teaches are also important in this close distance.

Best,
Ron

Demetrio Cereijo
05-08-2008, 10:06 AM
One more little question I have, more out of interest. Does Shodokan have any 'anti judo' locks? I notice the randori is quite judo like in its free form. If someone went fro a hip throw I could imagine some Shodokan people could handle that quite well.

Surely you'll find this interesting.
http://home.scarlet.be/~ewolput/Ueshiba%20Daito.pdf

Can the resident shodothugs give more info about the subject?

Flintstone
05-08-2008, 10:45 AM
More evolved???

Care to explain that?

:D Oh REALLY??? :D

More evolved since it represents O Sensei's form at his final stage. More evolved not necesarily meaning "better" -that whould be a silly argument-. Really.

L. Camejo
05-08-2008, 11:17 AM
Surely you'll find this interesting.
http://home.scarlet.be/~ewolput/Ueshiba%20Daito.pdf

Can the resident shodothugs give more info about the subject?Hi Demetrio,

Wow, you've found a document that I have not seen for some time. In essence however, Shishida Shihan is saying the same thing that I did in my last post, but in a much, much more knowledgeable manner.

Regarding Admiral Takeshita's book "Kon", I have never seen it so I can't give any info on the precise waza that Shishida Shihan refers to. There are others such as Peter R who may be able to shed more light on the subject I think. I hope he's watching.

Regarding 14:

Concerning Ueshiba's techniques
(1) Most of the techniques in the 148 techniques defend instantly against being grasped at the collar(s) and sleeve(s).
(2) The expression "show sprit" or "Kokyu wo ire" is used in 37 passages in the 148 techniques. "Kokyu wo ire" can be regarded as the same as the skill of aiki in Daito-ryu.Part 1 goes to what I said about arm`s length in a sense. It also relates to something I did not mention, which is Sen (timing), specifically pre-emptive timing where the attack or grasp in the case of a Judoka is not allowed to fully take hold, reducing the potential for kuzushi and any follow up judo waza. The Aikidoka does not wait until the judoka has started executing a hip throw to start his response iow. At tegatana distance however, the Aikidoka is able to execute kuzushi, and manipulate the grip of the Judoka before it sets in place.

On another note, most of the Aikido techniques from wrist grabs can also be applied to a gi-sleeve grab. Ever wondered what sort of person would keep holding onto your wrist after you`ve started to move to escape the attack? Someone who wanted to control that wrist for something else such as a throw, or to stop you from using a weapon.

Part 2 is very important and deals with a core of aiki waza, that of reading the opponent`s movement, mind, intent, energy etc. and acting instantly (showing spirit) and powerfully (using i do ryoku and toitsu ryoku). Imho it is akin to cutting through the enemy with your mind/spirit decisively, allowing the body to act instantaneously. I think this is critical to applied aiki waza, especially in the face of a good Judoka - if you start to react after they have gripped you (go no sen) you`re probably already half-way to the floor.:)

Finally, from the article:
(3) There are around 32 expressions "Hikiotosu" or "pulling an opponent down". Special features of this technique include moving backward while arcing downward and sitting down swiftly to drop one's body weight.In my own little experience it makes sense that this type of waza (hiki otoshi) can be effective if one is dealing with most (though not all) Judo style gi grabs that pre-empt a technique (as seen in standing Judo randori). A video of hiki otoshi as we do it in kihon can be found here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10d.html - and is very effective when the attacker`s elbow is already bent (e.g. when going for a gi lapel or arm grab a la Judo).

Just my thoughts. They may be worth exactly what you paid for them.

Best.
LC

numazu
05-09-2008, 06:40 AM
Thanks for those links. Good stuff. From my understanding, Ueshiba had perfected the art of dealing with the judo approaches BEFORE they managed a grip or hold. However on the down side, if a Judoka did get that hold it was difficult to deal with.
More of Shodokan I see the more practical I see it. Good blend of what works but witin the bounds of not using orce to execute the technique.

numazu
05-09-2008, 06:41 AM
Sorry, that should say "force".

Ron Tisdale
05-09-2008, 08:37 AM
:D I thought you said Good blend of what works but witin the bounds of not using orcs to execute the technique.

Sometimes on Koshi I could really use an orc or two... ;)
Best,
Ron

numazu
05-10-2008, 07:58 AM
Orc's are pretty useful in a tough situation. Most people run away from because they are so ugly.

DonMagee
05-11-2008, 11:50 AM
The only real way to learn to deal with judo guys, is going to be to find a few and play with them.

Then use your resources to find out what really works for you.

rob_liberti
05-11-2008, 04:59 PM
Thanks for those links. Good stuff. From my understanding, Ueshiba had perfected the art of dealing with the judo approaches BEFORE they managed a grip or hold. However on the down side, if a Judoka did get that hold it was difficult to deal with.
More of Shodokan I see the more practical I see it. Good blend of what works but witin the bounds of not using orce to execute the technique.

Where did that understanding come from? I don't think there are many (any!) Judo folks who could do their throws AFTER getting a hold either. Osensei had some incredible stability. I assume you haven't seen the jo trick footage.

Rob

Ron Tisdale
05-11-2008, 07:20 PM
Hey Don,

Done that...sometimes it works, sometimes I land REALLY hard. :D That's ok...

Best,
Ron

Rocky Izumi
05-12-2008, 11:56 AM
I would like to remind you all that the grabs themselves are key techniques in Aikido. How you grab in Katate Tori, Morote Tori, Mune Dori, Kata Tori, Sode Tori, Katate Tori Kubishime, or Ryote Tori are important to learn and do well. It is as important as some people in this forum point out is the importance of learning good Atemi techniques and Suburi and Jo techniques.

Many times I see the lack of resistance in Aikido comes from the poor teaching of good grappling.

Rock

Dennis Hooker
05-12-2008, 02:49 PM
I would like to remind you all that the grabs themselves are key techniques in Aikido. How you grab in Katate Tori, Morote Tori, Mune Dori, Kata Tori, Sode Tori, Katate Tori Kubishime, or Ryote Tori are important to learn and do well. It is as important as some people in this forum point out is the importance of learning good Atemi techniques and Suburi and Jo techniques.

Many times I see the lack of resistance in Aikido comes from the poor teaching of good grappling.

Rock

Hello Rock, I totaly agree with you on this. I am so passionate about it I did a DVD on just that. I think below is a link to it, I don't sell it myself. This is not a add for the DVD, I put it here just to show how much credence I give to that part of Aikido. No, the stuff is not flashy or a show stopper but just a part of Aikido that often gets passed over for the flash. But it is the basics of Aikido and I just don't see it taught much. That is why I did it so at least that record will be there after I die.

Dennis

www.createspace.com/238049

Rocky Izumi
05-12-2008, 09:52 PM
Nice Dennis. It may not be an ad but I'm buying it. Thanks for the info and thanks for making the DVD. Hope we can get together for a practice before we both get too old. :) Sending you a private message.

Rock

numazu
05-13-2008, 04:11 AM
Where did that understanding come from? I don't think there are many (any!) Judo folks who could do their throws AFTER getting a hold either. Osensei had some incredible stability. I assume you haven't seen the jo trick footage.

Rob

Hi Rob. No I havent seen any footage of Ueshiba dealing with Judo throws to be honest. I was making an observation for the average Aikido practitioner. I think obviously Ueshiba could deal with almost anyone. For the average person, through my observations at least, if they can prevent the grapple by perfroming the technique before the hold takes place, they have greater chance of success. If the Judoka gets the hold on, I think it is very difficult to deal with them as their leverage comes on.
I think this is why Kano and his Judo was so successful in defeating so many Jujitsu schools of his time.
(I have no bias in the matter since I am not a Judoka - just what I feel).
If you have a good source of Ueshiba dealing with Judo throws, send me the link. Be very interested to take a look.
AL

DonMagee
05-13-2008, 07:03 AM
Of course there are some judo throws that do not require a 'judo grip'.

Morote gari comes to mind. However my advice is to keep distance and prevent gripping, then learn a good sprawl just in case. Remember that a grip does not have to be that judo grip you see in kata. That's just for teaching principles, real judoka have their own favorite grips and most have lots of practice throwing from odd or even non-optimal grips. Just grabing a sleeve/wrist/belly hair can be enough. The other huge thing is never crossing your feet, bad things come to people who cross their feet within sweep range of judoka.

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2008, 07:53 AM
Actually, it's the sweeps that usually keep me off balance enough for other waza to work for them...one aikido teacher I had is sansei...his dad trained judo in his youth. They used to kick car tires across a field to work on their sweeps.

Can you say OUCH?

Best,
Ron

L. Camejo
05-13-2008, 08:27 AM
Interesting.

Imho if you are in range for a Judoka to get an effective sweep off (causing kuzushi or waza) then the judoka has already broken your ma ai as an Aikidoka and he is in control of the engagement. The same goes for any other method (e.g. boxing, tkd etc.), if you stay at the range where they are most effective then they will probably come out on top.

Morote gari as are the other waza of Judo requires the Judoka to close to a distance where a grip can be taken. In morote gari, the grip is to the back of the thighs, but a human arm is only so long in relation to the rest of the body, so one must step in to a certain range to be able to grip any part of another's anatomy. The Aikidoka should ideally be dealing with the Judoka before or on his way to closing distance and taking that grip ime.

Finally, as one who practices both Judo and Jujutsu alongside Aikido I'd say that being able to sprawl is good if all you want to do is improve your ability to deal with certain Judo/JJ attacks. However if you want to improve your Aikido there are a few ways to deal with these things without resorting to a sprawl ime.

Best.
LC

DonMagee
05-13-2008, 08:30 AM
Yea, but a respectable sprawl takes what, a few weeks to get down. Compared to what to develop aiki ways of dealing with the same type of attacks?

L. Camejo
05-13-2008, 10:17 AM
Yea, but a respectable sprawl takes what, a few weeks to get down. Compared to what to develop aiki ways of dealing with the same type of attacks?
Like I said, it depends on your goal. If your goal is to improve your Aikido responses to these things then doing a sprawl will not necessarily bring you closer to that goal. It comes down to just being able to "survive" or truly developing deep and comprehensive skill in your chosen art - they are often different things. One does not have to become a sniper to be able to kill someone with a bullet, but then if one does not want to develop that level of expertize there is no problem. For a person training to be a sniper however, just hitting the target anywhere is not enough.

Tomiki was very clear in his desire to have Aikido stand on its own as Budo on par with and equal to Judo and Kendo (which were both very popular as "modern" methods of the old ways), so resorting to tactics from other methods (and we see resorting to Judo waza to deal with an attacker as such) one is not truly plumbing the depths of their practice and attempting to understand why Aikido works the way it does.

Imho digging deep within oneself and ones chosen method to find a solution to an elusive problem is quite a rewarding and enlightening experience. It also takes you to a place where few travel.

Best.
LC

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2008, 10:56 AM
Hi Larry,

In my dealings with Judoka, sometimes I stay and work at my best ma ai, sometimes I work in their best ma ai. I do not assume that I will always be able to maintain a favorable ma ai (not saying you do make that assumption, just being clear).

I actually like stepping out of my comfort zone occationally. I also feel that there are things that can be done in a closer ma ai, that are still aikido. 'Course, I could be deluded... :D I haven't been all that sucessfull without strong atemi yet! ;)

Best,
Ron

L. Camejo
05-13-2008, 01:32 PM
Hi Larry,

In my dealings with Judoka, sometimes I stay and work at my best ma ai, sometimes I work in their best ma ai. I do not assume that I will always be able to maintain a favorable ma ai (not saying you do make that assumption, just being clear).

I actually like stepping out of my comfort zone occationally. I also feel that there are things that can be done in a closer ma ai, that are still aikido. 'Course, I could be deluded... :D I haven't been all that sucessfull without strong atemi yet! ;)

Best,
RonHi Ron,

I get what you're saying and I agree. In fact the reason I do JJ is in case every thing like ma ai etc. are already compromised in a given situation that I have to deal with. Imho there is an "ideal" ma ai that Aiki waza can work from, but that does not mean that it cannot work at others. Ma ai is only one part of the equation, positioning is as important imho. The reality is that both people are attempting to get the most favourable distance and position to execute their waza.

In my own experience, I've caught Judoka by doing exactly what you said - sacrificing my ideal ma ai (allowing them to get closer) and subtly offering an arm for them to take hold of, when they go for it I take their balance during the entry interval and execute something outside their typical randori repertoire like kotegaeshi. Much of Aiki waza is designed around proper timing. The timing must be supported by proper positioning (tsukuri) into the attacker's suki during the interval of the attack.

It comes down to how one defines core elements of Aiki waza as well. Pretty much all of the waza I've experienced in Shodokan involve using body weight power, positioning and correct postural alignment applied via tegatana in attack and defence. This guarantees that most waza will ideally be executed at the length of tegatana (roughly arm's length). The same waza can be executed without tegatana however, but often (though not always) more upper body muscle is brought into the equation.

Just my 2 cents. There are many ways to skin a cat.

Best.
LC

DonMagee
05-13-2008, 01:35 PM
Like I said, it depends on your goal. If your goal is to improve your Aikido responses to these things then doing a sprawl will not necessarily bring you closer to that goal. It comes down to just being able to "survive" or truly developing deep and comprehensive skill in your chosen art - they are often different things. One does not have to become a sniper to be able to kill someone with a bullet, but then if one does not want to develop that level of expertize there is no problem. For a person training to be a sniper however, just hitting the target anywhere is not enough.

Tomiki was very clear in his desire to have Aikido stand on its own as Budo on par with and equal to Judo and Kendo (which were both very popular as "modern" methods of the old ways), so resorting to tactics from other methods (and we see resorting to Judo waza to deal with an attacker as such) one is not truly plumbing the depths of their practice and attempting to understand why Aikido works the way it does.

Imho digging deep within oneself and ones chosen method to find a solution to an elusive problem is quite a rewarding and enlightening experience. It also takes you to a place where few travel.

Best.
LC

I've always read this part of his writings


Aikido is much the same as judo because the origins of both reside in the ancient schools of jujutsu. If we generally classify the kinds of techniques (waza) in the ancient schools of jujutsu, there are four categories:

1. Nage-waza (throwing techniques)

2. Katame-waza (locking techniques)

3. Atemi-waza (striking techniques)

4. Kansetsu-waza (joint techniques)

Among these, many nage-waza and some katame-waza have been collected into the system of training that is "competition judo" (judo kyogi), and various atemi-waza and kansetsu-waza have been collected into the system of training that is "competition aikido" (aikido kyogi).
http://vsa.vassar.edu/~aikido/jujitsumodernization.htm

as meaning his aikido was ment to focus on developing 2 of the 4 ranges of jiujitsu with judo relegated to the other 2. Thus implying that to be complete, you must have all 4.

I agree there is value to spend some time to see how to deal with a set technique using a set of principles. I just feel that like walking and running you need to learn to walk first. Once you understand the very high percentage, easy to learn and use techniques, then you can focus on the highly detailed specialization your art requires. Which I guess brings me to a point I have not yet brought up. To truly know what it takes to deal with an attack, you have to understand that attack and know how to use it. So the first step to dealing with a double leg takedown in aikido would not be to learn to sprawl, but to learn to execute a proper (and at least passable) double leg takedown.

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2008, 01:44 PM
Much agreed with that last post Don. If I had my druthers I'd have really done some serious judo before coming to aikido.

Best,
Ron

L. Camejo
05-13-2008, 06:18 PM
To truly know what it takes to deal with an attack, you have to understand that attack and know how to use it. So the first step to dealing with a double leg takedown in aikido would not be to learn to sprawl, but to learn to execute a proper (and at least passable) double leg takedown.Precisely.:)

Dennis Hooker
05-14-2008, 09:06 AM
Don Magee wrote:
To truly know what it takes to deal with an attack, you have to understand that attack and know how to use it. So the first step to dealing with a double leg takedown in aikido would not be to learn to sprawl, but to learn to execute a proper (and at least passable) double leg takedown.

Seems to me some hotshot tried that with George Ledyard a while back and hurt himself.

Dennis Hooker
05-14-2008, 09:25 AM
I will admit that trying to do a double leg take down on George is like trying to take down two Oka trees.

DonMagee
05-14-2008, 09:58 AM
The question is, did he really know what he was doing?

Any fool can do what they see on TV and claim to be a martial artist. And it becomes apparent very quickly once you meetup with soemone of even marginal skill (I'm not saying George's skills are marginal).

Dennis Hooker
05-14-2008, 10:21 AM
The question is, did he really know what he was doing?

Any fool can do what they see on TV and claim to be a martial artist. And it becomes apparent very quickly once you meetup with soemone of even marginal skill (I'm not saying George's skills are marginal).

The guy was one of the guest instructors at an Aiki Expo in Las Vegas. As to whether or not he knew what he was doing is still up in the air. He sure did not know George.

Ron Tisdale
05-14-2008, 11:37 AM
Hi Dennis,

He didn't know what he was doing. False data point.

Pick your average heavy weight wrestler in college. Not even div. 1. Div 3 average guy, not even all american. Outcome would probably be more interesting and relevant, no matter failure or success.

Best,
Ron

Dennis Hooker
05-14-2008, 11:53 AM
Hi Dennis,

He didn't know what he was doing. False data point.

Pick your average heavy weight wrestler in college. Not even div. 1. Div 3 average guy, not even all american. Outcome would probably be more interesting and relevant, no matter failure or success.

Best,
Ron

Back in the dark ages when I went to ISU we had an Olympic wrestler. He come to the Terre Judo Club. Took him to State Judo matches in Indianapolis and he took out some of the best until they found out who he was then developed strategies to do better against him.

DonMagee
05-14-2008, 12:05 PM
Yup, I had some success with bjj strategies in judo tournaments before until the coaches started remembering me and telling their players what to do to stop me. After that i was shut down and had to rethink how I played.

aikilouis
05-14-2008, 03:14 PM
So that's all there is to say ? Learn about the repertoire from the other arts and work on the techniques to counter them ?

This is very unsatisfactory.

Ron Tisdale
05-14-2008, 03:21 PM
Huh...I don't think that's all that's been said. Maybe I've been reading a different thread.

But as far as that goes, yeah, I think it's a pretty practical start. If someone is willing to put the work in. Not to be flippant, but what exactly were you expecting?

Best,
Ron

Dennis Hooker
05-14-2008, 03:28 PM
In my life I have studied Judo, Karate and swordsman ship to Yudansha levels under skilled instruction. I studied boxing and boxed under skilled instruction and learned knife fighting skills. Knowing the skill sets required by each art has given me useful knowledge in my 40+ years of Aikido when dealing with persons with similar backgrounds for these arts. I believe if one is serious about their art and making the best of it then one should know what one may be dealing with and develop strategies to do so.

L. Camejo
05-14-2008, 04:53 PM
I believe if one is serious about their art and making the best of it then one should know what one may be dealing with and develop strategies to do so.I've found this as well. However, to be clear, one could easily find methods to deal with certain attacks (e.g. morote gari or boxing jab) within the syllabus of those arts. Imho for the Aikidoka to excel at his knowledge base within Aikido he must find ways to deal with this from the principles embodied within Aikido waza.

Tomiki came across this problem in developing competitive Aikido. When players closed distance to grappling range they often resorted to Judo waza (leg sweeps, sutemi etc.). Although this may have been the easy way to deal with the situation, by implementing rules that disallowed the use of any Judo waza (especially leg sweeps), one was forced to train the body in a different way to use timing, body handling and alignment in a way typical to Aiki waza in order to obtain kuzushi without sacrificing stability. Having done both Judo and Aikido, the differences in application are most interesting and can really test ones understanding of power generation, kuzushi etc. from an Aikido perspective.

Getting back to Hooker Sensei's earlier post regarding the individual's encounter with Sensei Ledyard at Aiki Expo - that person truly believed that Aikidoka needed to adopt tactics from those other arts (e.g. Boxing and BJJ) and mix them into Aikido to be successful against attacks from those arts. I think that this approach will actually take one further away from developing ones Aiki waza and more towards developing a hybrid approach to dealing with certain types of attacks.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

aikilouis
05-14-2008, 05:38 PM
What Larry is expressing is exactly my point.

There is an Aikido way of doing things. When we learn Aikido we are not just looking for a solution to a specific problem, something which could be solved with many different methods (goal oriented approach).

We are most of all learning specific abilities based on sound principles that in the end help us develop ourselves and our range of influence on our environment (process oriented approach).

Learning about what other people or styles practices is fine, but it cannot be our reference, because we cannot do judo better than judoka, karate better than karateka, etc. In the end we would end up playing the opponent's game, being reactive instead of assertive.

When O Sensei developped Aikido he obviously reduced the number of techniques studied, taken from the Daito Ryu repertoire, and he selected the ones that absolutely require to work on body structure and mental dynamics to be efficient. In my opinion he did so because he specifically wanted the practitioners to develop those two principles. I see the same choice with Tomiki sensei's sparring ruleset, because he wanted specific skills to be worked on.

DonMagee
05-14-2008, 06:54 PM
And it is fine to work on those skillsets. But the question is 'how do I deal with X'. Well you just answered it, you need to work on that skillset. The best known way is to not just assume the answer is there and keep training aikido, but find out what the move is about (learn it yourself or find a competent practitioner of the move), see how they defend it, see how they set it up, and then look at your art, what is there and what might help in that situation (or to prevent getting in that situation) then test it, wash rinse and repeat.

Kevin Leavitt
05-14-2008, 06:59 PM
In reference to Larry's post and Ludwig's:

Intent and endstate are important. It would appear that O'Sensei, Tomiki, and all the rest had a particular focus and developed their methodology to be efficient to train this things.

I think as long as we keep that in mind, then there is no issue.

It is when we lose this focus or do not understand it that we start having problems.

Limiting the way you approach randori as Larry points out by restricting Judo waza would be a good thing if you are trying to focus on a particular area.

One should not translate that practice in terms of judo waza though, or judge the effectiveness of either methods of training through the parameter of each waza.

I would tend to agree that taking an adaptive approach (a scholarly term for MMA) could adversely affect the original intent of aikido as Larry points out.

is this good or bad?

I think it depends on your personal goals.

I don't know that I agree with Ludwig's comments on "playing the opponents game"..that is being reactive instead of assertive. Studying the opponents game I think is important if you want to show your opponent that you understand his game and hence can be assertive at his game, and can show him an alternative way of playing the game that he might not have considered.

On principles:

Daily at work I find myself faced with things that violate principles. (I work for the federal government). Daily I find myself having to ignore things that come up that might be raised "out of principle" simply because the investment of time outweighs the potential benefits.

My point is sometimes it is better to focus on long range intent or desired endstate than to worry about principles for the sake of principles.

Some times punching the guy in the face is the best option.

Anyway, I agree with what you guys are saying concerning intent and focus, and it is key that we understand why we are doing what we are doing and not pretend or transfer onto it our own expectations.

Ron Tisdale
05-14-2008, 08:12 PM
Really good series of posts, thanks!

Ludwig, thanks for clarifying...I'm with Kevin on this not being an attempt to play the judoka's game, but rather, to understand it. Once that is done, you can dig for the correct principle and application in aikido yourself. And we are in complete agreement as to structure and kokyu.

Best,
Ron

Rocky Izumi
05-14-2008, 11:00 PM
Daily at work I find myself faced with things that violate principles. (I work for the federal government). Daily I find myself having to ignore things that come up that might be raised "out of principle" simply because the investment of time outweighs the potential benefits.

My point is sometimes it is better to focus on long range intent or desired endstate than to worry about principles for the sake of principles.


Aren't you stating one of the principles by which you do your work here, Kevin? :D

Rock

Kevin Leavitt
05-14-2008, 11:03 PM
Oh yes...I suppose so! :)

Flintstone
05-15-2008, 02:49 AM
Just an innocent question... do you really think there is a big difference between judo and aikido? I mean, if you come to think of aikido (or judo or whatever) as a set of techniques then the difference stands out; but if you think of it as a set of principals, is the difference that big?

Watching Kyuzo Mifune or Minoru Mochizuki doing judo... they way they flow, it looks like aiki to my untrained eye. It's also my understanding that Mochizuki Sensei said that judo and aikido are one (judo aikido icchi), and the Seifukai guys have a kata with that very name (not sure the kata is original from Yoseikan or their own creation, but very illustrating btw).

What I mean is: is it really wrong to include the so-called "judo waza" in our aikido if done in an "aiki manner"? If when performing irimi nage with aiki timming, intention, deai, maai, etc... I sweep uke's feet, is that aikido, judo, mma? For me, I guess it's still aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
05-15-2008, 06:01 AM
Yes and no there is a "big" difference. Not so big if you are categorizing it as a "martial art" as an outsider. Both arts wear GIs, both use Japanese terms, many of the techniques are the same.

It is BIG if you take an aikido guy and put him in a judo tourna ment with no judo training!

Vice, if you take the judo guy throw him into an aikido class and expect him to do things the aikido way.

Its like saying there is no big difference between a Dollar Store socket wrench set and a Facom or Snap on Socket set! (Not saying that there is a quality issue between judo and aikido).

On your last paragraph. No it is not wrong to include the so-called Judo Waza, infact done properly in Judo and Aikido I don't think there really should be much discrepancy. It is not about right or wrong but about methodology to train or focus on certain things.

My personal goal is to be "martially proficient". For my path that requires that I have a level of competence in many ranges and pressures of many martial arts and paradigms.

I know others that only want to be aikido proficient and have only studied aikido.

Those guys will always know more about aikido than I and should be the bearers of the art of aikido to ensure it stays intact as an art or methodology...not me!

Martially it is a big world out there and room for all. All of us are going to have a different take on things. It is why a beginner will go with 5 diffferent Yudansha in the dojo and be told 5 different things to do right! None are wrong, but all look at the approach and importance of things slightly differently! That is a different issue though to discuss on training beginners!

Dennis Hooker
05-15-2008, 07:38 AM
Getting back to Hooker Sensei's earlier post regarding the individual's encounter with Sensei Ledyard at Aiki Expo - that person truly believed that Aikidoka needed to adopt tactics from those other arts (e.g. Boxing and BJJ) and mix them into Aikido to be successful against attacks from those arts. I think that this approach will actually take one further away from developing ones Aiki waza and more towards developing a hybrid approach to dealing with certain types of attacks.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

With this I totally agree. Aikido need not be augmented with other arts; I do believe it is holistic in its approach. That not withstanding I also believe it never hurts to know what might be coming at you so you can apply sound Aikido principles in response, and however you gain that knowledge is fine. The sad part is too many people find they can not handle situations they thought they were prepared for.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-15-2008, 07:46 AM
The sad part is too many people find they can not handle situations they thought they were prepared for.

And this is not exclusive of MT like people. Talking the talk is not walking the walk. You'll find delusional armchair strategists both inside and outside aikido world.

Enrique Antonio Reyes
05-24-2008, 09:07 PM
On the dot there Mr. Cereijo. Unfortunately, in the martial arts world it sometimes spell the difference between life and death.

Iking

Stefan Stenudd
05-25-2008, 09:47 AM
I think it's quite interesting to study other martial arts, though not necessarily for learning how to defeat practitioners of them.
Aikido is mainly done in aikido dojos, with other aikido students. That's difficult enough, and rewarding enough.

I like to see aikido as an art, so I try to focus on it, and try to improve according to the premises given in it.

Still, studying other martial arts is quite interesting. You learn their premises and what they lead to, and that gives tools for developing your own aikido, directly or indirectly.