The Uke, Compliance and Qi

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[tuturuhan]

Qi and Compliance

“Notice that the teachers in the clips supposedly make their stuff work
against the students. There is something going on there. What is it?
Notice that all the clips you showed of empty force teachers show the
same thing as these clips — at least in the beginning. But in these
clips it doesn’t work against non-compliance.” The Wonderdous Channel Dave Chesser, Formosa Neijia Yahoo Discussions.

A reply to Dave:

1. stimulus: -response-association-reinforcement

2. creates: the environment for suggestion/hypnosis

3. connects: to body physiology

4. organizes: chemical reaction and electromagnetic energy

5. termed: as essence or soul

6. emitted: to people, objects, situations, concepts and theory

7. purposeful: repeatable result to “hunt, procreate and aha”

That said, I noticed early on that a distinct grouping of my students “writhed in pain” before I applied the technique. When I listened to the critics of my technique they said “your students are in compliance”.

I agree. Some of my students “associated” the original pain of the technique to the stimulus of the “repeatable” attack (i.e. chin na, pressue pt etc). They then reacted in pain, a physiological event because the body was “suggested to” that hormones and nerves must create pain. All before I executed the technique.

Was this (compliance) a bad thing? Well, my initial reaction was to desire new students who could not be compliant to “practice as habit”, and to seek out challenges from outsiders.

I wanted to make sure my technique was for real. (When I first went to europe to teach seminars, a sudden insecurity hit me as I entered the workout room of an Italian class of preying mantis students. I thought, will my technique work. These guys are different. They are Italitans! But, after the first Italian student “went down in pain”…my fear astonishing disappeared…:) )
As such, I knew that my intitial technique had nothing to do with compliance.

However, as a strategist who desires a result…I want to be able to get others to “do my bidding”. I want my ten year old daughter to “obey my commands” without hitting her over the head with a baseball bat. She had to become “compliant” to my empty force. She learned to be such, not simply by giving her love (emitted through the touch of hugs and kisses). She had to learn compliance with the touch of spanking and discipline.

Empty force creating “Result”. Now will this empty force work into her teenage years?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Chris Parkerson]

Qi and Compliance

I wanted to make sure my technique was for real. ........
As such, I knew that my intitial technique had nothing to do with compliance.

However, as a strategist who desires a result…I want to be able to get others to "do my bidding".
Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

I love the world of Aiki-no-jitsu. To attain one of these techniques, you use a combination of sympathetic movement/mild hypnosis, body positioning, suggestions, and light touch. But it will not work well against someone who is not very intelligenct or someone who has adrenal demped.

That is why I move fluidly between Aiji-no-jitsu to Aikijujutsu to Jujitsu. It is like having a handgun, a rifle and a knife. They all can be used in the fight.... just depends on the need of the moment.

[DH]

Chris
Don't take this personally as I am talking about your expression of an art, not you as a person. It’s a bit difficult to not discuss *you* since *you* keep putting up videos of you.

Your entire statement; from start to finish does not reflect any depth of understanding of what aikijujutsu is and why it holds such incredible potential to the few who correctly pursue its heart. Further, all of this small circle movement, with shapes and directions misses the entire heart of aiki. It's jujutsu. And the type of jujutsu you display is lacking the body skill. The soft-touch directed aikisage, and age/sage is highly marginal against an aggressive experienced fighter. Without the body skills behind it, its nothing more than the very types of dojo waza that is serving to ruin its reputation. While impressive to those who are introduced to it and can start to make them work, it is none-the-less just entry level jujutsu. Not that there’s nothing wrong with that
It also goes along way in defining what most folks hate about the whole idea of aiki in fighting arts and why they equate aikijujutsu with aikido in the "cooperative genre." This stuff is what engendered all of the aiki wars at the start up of E-budo after some of the more rational jujutdu/koryu budo folks felt the current crop of Daito ryu teachers hitting the American shores and more or less said “where’s the beef?” I was discussing this very issues a short while ago with a Daito ryu teacher who has skill, lamenting over what is presented as aiki-jujutsu. Anyway, this is just more of that type of movement, revisited. I hope you have more serious jujutsu skills as a backup.

[DH]

love the world of Aiki-no-jitsu. To attain one of these techniques, you use a combination of sympathetic movement/mild hypnosis, body positioning, suggestions, and light touch. But it will not work well against someone who is not very intelligenct or someone who has adrenal demped.

One other thing
I will not speak to what you consider Aiki-no-jutsu to be and what the requirements are in an uke. Mine works regardless of whether or not the guy is smart or dumb and whether or not he wants to move or not. I also don't monitor their level of ukemi to validate the connection we just made. Aiki-no-jutsu (the art of aiki) is just as valid in the judoka never being able to get kuzushi, popping-off, repositioning and getting dumped, the wrestler getting slammed going for a single leg, BJJers not being able to get a single thing to work, MMAers having to sit out three rounds after doubting, asking and receiving a short power strike, to playing with tai chi teachers or the most beautiful air throw breakfall from a wrist or gi grab, it's all aiki-nu-jutsu to me. Adrenaline dump or not.
Why? It has nothing to do with a waza or anything to do with them, Chris.
What you need is succinctly addressed in my signature line.

[Chris Parkerson]

One other thing
I will not speak to what you consider Aiki-no-jutsu to be and what the requirements are in an uke. Mine works regardless of whether or not the guy is smart or dumb and whether or not he wants to move or not. I also don't monitor their level of ukemi to validate the connection we just made. Aiki-no-jutsu (the art of aiki) is just as valid in the judoka never being able to get kuzushi, popping-off, repositioning and getting dumped, the wrestler getting slammed going for a single leg, BJJers not being able to get a single thing to work, MMAers having to sit out three rounds after doubting, asking and receiving a short power strike, to playing with tai chi teachers or the most beautiful air throw breakfall from a wrist or gi grab, it's all aiki-nu-jutsu to me. Adrenaline dump or not.
Why? It has nothing to do with a waza or anything to do with them, Chris.
What you need is succinctly addressed in my signature line.

I appreciate your evaluation and your respectful style as usual. I agree, I am a work in progress and will be until I die.

Just out of interest, here are a few fisticuff fights. would you make comment on them?

Granted that this is not an ambush- type fight. It is a sport-style dueling match (i.e. you square off and there are a modicum of rules). At least there is no protective gear. Is there any kokyu/Jin happenin in the first two duels?

IMO, Suppression and closing the gap seems to work better than trading blows from a distance. What do the Marines call it…. Close with the enemy and destroy them…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoVD3Bjwto&feature=related

Even great punchers without gear cannot end a fight that quickly if their punch connects too far away from their own center of gravity (too much centrifugal force)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1KQefb7UnU&feature=related

The Grand Ultimate Fist-Dim Mak from a distance (would that we all could do this). But can they do it in an ambush-type fight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmEOR6a68OE

What lessons would you offer from these videos?

[DH]

Hi again
I can't access any you tube videos any more from my lap top. Nor can I download an updated vaersion of flashplayer. It just won't load It's screwed. I think I am going to switch to firefox instead of IE.
I'll have to wait till I get in the office tomm or I can fix this damn machine later today. Idinlt see any vids from all of these discussion till yesterday while I was waiting for a late appointment. I sat and watched. Thus commented on what I saw. There is a whole contigent of teachers teaching those jujutsu circle motions and calling it aiki. And they genuinely believe it. They are sincere. They're stuck in the middle, thinking its the high end. It's the substative reason for the "one-level-up" from technical orientation stlye teaching of waza, to the "principle based" style of teaching. Place them in a more pressured environment and their "understanding" based on external/marginally internal technique falls apart, due to their aiki requiring fine motor skills and a measure of cooperation. True power has nothing to do with waza. It creates waza, it uses waza, but its the driver or the prime mover.

[Kevin Leavitt]

lessons learned from these videos?

that cognitive dissonance is an important concept to understand.

We must work constantly to ensure that we are being honest with ourselves and those we train with.

We have a clear understanding of the desired endstate that we want to achieve, and work to achieve it as efficiently and effectively as we can.

everything else is delusion and a distraction and philosophical and intellectual bullshit that serves to entertain us with no other purpose.

[Chris Parkerson]

Hi again
I can't access any you tube videos any more from my lap top. Nor can I download an updated vaersion of flashplayer. It just won't load It's screwed. I think I am going to switch to firefox instead of IE.
I'll have to wait till I get in the office tomm or I can fix this damn machine later today. Idinlt see any vids from all of these discussion till yesterday while I was waiting for a late appointment. I sat and watched. Thus commented on what I saw. There is a whole contigent of teachers teaching those jujutsu circle motions and calling it aiki. And they genuinely believe it. They are sincere. They're stuck in the middle, thinking its the high end. It's the substative reason for the "one-level-up" from technical orientation stlye teaching of waza, to the "principle based" style of teaching. Place them in a more pressured environment and their "understanding" based on external/marginally internal technique falls apart, due to their aiki requiring fine motor skills and a measure of cooperation. True power has nothing to do with waza. It creates waza, it uses waza, but its the driver or the prime mover.

Not a problem. I am a patient guy. And my questions are sincere.
Perhaps you can discuss them with me off line when you are up and running with video capability.

video #1 Shui Jiao vs White Crane match
video #2 Two Tai Chi guys go at it in a ring
video #3 Two "dim mak from a distance" guys go at it at 20 feet distance.

[tuturuhan]

Chris,

The Preacher

All my life (even as a child) I have been accused of being
"preachy"...better than though. I attribute this to
the role model of my Grandfather (a man who talked
with an invisible white giant, and to my mother who
was a true saint)

Well, IMO the biggest preachers also tend to be the
biggest sinners. (I need not say more...)

My wife evidences this truth as she tell me everyday her concerns about my "failings". She works harder than me, is a better
parent and is incredibly patient and forgiving of my
ample weaknesses.

She is the third great influence in my life. She makes me want to be better...though, we know for a fact that I am lazy and lacking in
comparison to her, my mother and my grandfather.

Thus,the parameters I set forth (on other posts) for judging "mastery" are merely "standards". They are goals to reach and
maintain. They are also "multi-leveled" so as to
show our "individual" progress in life.

A few more thoughts:

1. Equality: Today, we live in a society of
"equality". Everyone is told they are equal. As
such, people in society are upset when "someone" acts
and does "better than". They have been taught to
believe "life is supposed to be fair". It is not.
Some people are better than others. Some people are
richer, more experienced and prosperous.

As such, it is true, that some people have "mastered"
higher levels. As such we have a choice, learn from
the "model masters" or pooh pooh it.

2. Levels: At each level "we" each of us, CAN be
masters. My children "mastered" the alphabet. When
they recognized letters on the board and could say
them; I knew they were reading. They were "masters"
at that level.

But, they couldn't yet read words. Nonetheless, I
recognized that they were reading. Fortunately, I
also recognized that their mastery of the alphabet
reading M A T, was also the very "obstacle" that
prevented them from going to the next level. They had
to "give up" what they had mastered and instead learn
to phonetically sound the letters MAH AAA t. "Now
flow with it mahaat".

When they learned to read phonetically they had mastered the next level. (The same happens in martial arts. The very level we
master becomes the obstacle to the next level.) The point, is that "each level" in life is something we are capable of mastering. SADLY, because "others are successful" the insecure want to bring the prosperous down to their own level...to make
themselves feel better. As such, "we" should not be insecure or restrictive of our egos...because the herd tells us that "we are
equal".

Instead, we should be proud of every level,
every action, big or small that we have "mastered".

3. Open-mindedness: It is ok to be proud of each and
every accomphishment. You can even preach if you
want. However, I for one am always aware that there
is always "another expert, master, guru, child,
student, who can teach and enlighten me.

4. Community: None of us, can be successful by
ourselves. We have a choice to tear each other down
in the name of equality. Or, some of us can choose to
be "life masters" and help each other to higher
levels.

And yet, I tell myself everyday, "Just be aware that
at these lofty heights, you will encounter loniness
frustration and even ridicule."

5. WE, all of us together ARE ALREADY LIFE MASTERS:

I come from a different perspective. It is not about
attaining mastery. It is about UNCOVERING the mastery
that has always been within you.

Finally, look not to the Big Mastery...look to the
mastery of simple things...in the simple
uncovering...it all adds up to LIFE MASTERY.

Damn, I should have been a preacher! :)

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Chris Parkerson]

Tuturuhan,

Love what you said.

IMO, our wives or significant others are the real heroes. Our time in training is time away from tending to their wishes and needs.

Preaching.... I hate when that happens. Product of my training.
Yes, I am the greatest of sinners. Just like the Jesuits and my Protestant teachers told me. But I really do believe it because
I know my insides as well.

Having a violet aura is another thing. It nature has a process that is different from others like the tan or yellow or blue auras. Once we have an orientation, we hold to it, and act on it at the cellular level, but if genuine logic appears, we change overnight. Not hypocrisy, just a genuine dialectic.

Yes, all learning is really self learning. In fact, violets for most of the last few decades have been "in review." We are reassessing things we have learned through many lifetimes. It is like preparing for the PhD thesis defense process.

I love learning from all sources I can. I have few boundaries and make many friends in the process. I truly value the new friendship we are building.

What I also have is a deep loyalty to those who are most meaningful. My wife (17 years), My original and current kenpo teacher (35 years). My original and current Jujitsu teacher (20 years), my first and current Judo teacher (15 years), my second and current Escrima teacher (10 years), My fourth and current Aikijujutsu teacher (8 years). My third and current Aikido teacher (2 years). Now you, I hope it lasts a lifetime.

In my art, I like to objectively document my stages of growth. Any video I take is without preparation, performance on demand.... no matter what condition my body is in or what the environment includes. I really do not care about striking poses, just the real deal as it is. keeping things honest as I can.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Chris,

tried to PM you, but your box is full.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

[tuturuhan]

"Quote: In my art, I like to objectively document my stages of growth. Any video I take is without preparation, performance on demand.... no matter what condition my body is in or what the environment includes. I really do not care about striking poses, just the real deal as it is. keeping things honest as I can. by MTL Chris Parkinson"

Today, everyone wants more. Today, most think there are either secrets being withheld, or that everything is available to them. it is a contradiction of insecurity and entitlement.

On another post, someone talked about how the internet has changed are practices because of the availability of videos. When I was coming up, everything was secret. Partly because teachers treasured their material and worried that others would steal it. There are no secrets. There is only hard work. There is only the constant practice of "uncovering".

Fortunately, video cameras were around to capture O sensei and others in different periods of their practice. We can see a progression.

Unfortunately, given "instant gratification" today's martial artists have too too much to choose from. Yet, incredibly they stay sectarian. They will glance at other "martial tapes" but will not study them. They fail to look deeply...partly because they have never been taught to look deeply. Yet, this too is ok...its alright to simply have fun.

When I was young, I would watch the same 8mm tape of my teacher every day. Later, every month and then every few years. From it, I would mark my progress. I still watch it to remind me.

In tai chi chuan, its knowledge can only be uncovered by opening yourself to it. You must practice it and you must set up metrics to help you see your progress.

As I said to you before, ridicule and criticism is part of "eating bitter". Fortunately, for me, I have a sweet tooth. :)

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Ron Tisdale]

I don't know about ridicule, but criticism is certainly *not* part of "eating bitter". Trying to lighten it with humor also should not be considered "eating bitter". Sounds nice, but it misses the point, in my opinion.

We all make critical decisions every moment of every day. It is the nature of discourse to ask questions, give opinions, take advice, etc. That should not be construed as negative, unless, of course, it gets personal. To critique ideas is not personal. To question ideas is not personal. We (including myself) should all be open to others disagreeing with our opinions, and seeking the best value in the market place of ideas. That means sorting through the various opinions, facts, and other information with a descriminating mind to find the best determination we can make at any point in time. Sometimes, that means I have to change my mind about an issue. But that is what discourse is for.

Best,
Ron(this reply is to this thread, it is not personal)

[tuturuhan]

I don't know about ridicule, but criticism is certainly *not* part of "eating bitter". Trying to lighten it with humor also should not be considered "eating bitter". Sounds nice, but it misses the point, in my opinion.

We all make critical decisions every moment of every day. It is the nature of discourse to ask questions, give opinions, take advice, etc. That should not be construed as negative, unless, of course, it gets personal. To critique ideas is not personal. To question ideas is not personal. We (including myself) should all be open to others disagreeing with our opinions, and seeking the best value in the market place of ideas. That means sorting through the various opinions, facts, and other information with a descriminating mind to find the best determination we can make at any point in time. Sometimes, that means I have to change my mind about an issue. But that is what discourse is for.

Best,
Ron(this reply is to this thread, it is not personal)

Ron,

Hehehehehe

Everything is personal. No one is truly objective. The experimenter affects the double blind experiment no matter how much his attempts to be objective.

Words do hurt. A bully is a bully whether physical, intellectual or spiritual. But, the good guys roll with the punches. I'm not so good. I have a tendency to let my temper flare. I have a tendency to hit first.

Though, I have found it interesting that some people have told a bodyguard, an owner of a nationally known security firm, a world traveler, a success at marriage, an owner of property that he doesn't know what he is doing.

Chris is well over 6'2 inches. Guarantied, if he "hit" you you'd go down. How do I know...I have seen him "hit". Yet, he rolls with the punches.

IMO credence to a critics opinion "should be based" on the experience and knowledge of the critic. Can the guy fight? You have people that do...and then you have people that criticize.

Nonetheless we push. But, we should be careful on how our criticisms reflect our own dreams.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Ron Tisdale]

Though, I have found it interesting that some people have told a bodyguard, an owner of a nationally known security firm, a world traveler, a success at marriage, an owner of property that he doesn't know what he is doing.

Chris is well over 6'2 inches. Guarantied, if he "hit" you you'd go down. How do I know...I have seen him "hit". Yet, he rolls with the punches.

You see, this is part of the problem. And I mean no offense to Chris or anyone else.

In the marketplace of ideas, and in America, no one's societal standing or physical stature determines the worth of their ideas.

Let's say I have an idea that the sky is red. And I can fight like a mad dog. Someone else says, "no, obviously, the sky is blue".

I tell them I'm coming to see them, and when I do, I will prove the sky is red, because I am wealthy, and I can kick butt. When we meet, I do indeed kick butt.

Is the sky now red?

Absurd, isn't it? ;)

So to my mind, intimating physical visits, how large I am, physical violence, is a complete non-sequitur in a discussion of ideas. It just doesn't follow. Now, when discussing a physical practice, it is often a benefit to get together and share methods, and try things out. Martial arts is a physical practice, so that is a necessary thing to do. It should be done respectfully, and we should know we are not fighting when we do it. We are training. In this modern age.

There may be those that are interested in taking that to the next level. I personally am not. It isn't needed in MY life. Someone else is welcome to find someone who likes that next level and go there. I chose not to...because in my life, it is not needed. I have other ways to level set to my satisfaction.

Best,
Ron (and please understand when I say that, I mean Best Regards)

[Ron Tisdale]

Words do hurt. A bully is a bully whether physical, intellectual or spiritual.

And as a child, my mother told me, they are just words. Sticks, stones, and all that. Words do not justify violence. I used to fight over the "N" word. You said it to me, you were giving or getting a beating. And I really didn't care which way it went...but you were going to have to fight.

I was wrong!

No matter how despicable that other person was for using that word, I was wrong. Period. If I do that today I am wrong.

But, the good guys roll with the punches. I'm not so good. I have a tendency to let my temper flare. I have a tendency to hit first.
We all have probably felt that at some time or another. Me too.

Time for us both to grow up.

Best,
Ron

[Allen Beebe]

Nice posts Ron.

Gentlemanly, level headed and salient as usual.

Best,
Allen

[tuturuhan]

Ron,

That's the point.

I am grown up. I have a wife of many years, children, a profession, money in the bank and the respect of friends and students. I am 51 years old and no longer searching or having to prove to anyone or to myself. Better yet, my children have been trained to respect their elders "not because" they are forced. They do so out of politeness.

As for losing my temper and punching back when attacked. Well, I am a bit old fashioned. I think a man should protect his family, his values and his beliefs.

In fact, as Americans, I think we should all be willing to donate at least two years of our lives to American society. But, then that's another story.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Chris Parkerson]

can anyone hear the essence of the real voices that aretrying to communicate?

Two cultures. Both right within their culture. Joe is speaking from a pure heart. Many organic cultures do thisnaturally. We in the modern European West do not do it soeasily.

Just like reverend Jooshua wright, joe will speak truth to power if his "being real" gets dissed.

Now we all heard soundbites on the news. But who listened to Rev. Wright's sermon before the NAACP. From a strategic perspective,i saw a true hermeneutical attempt at building cross cultural bridges. From a technical side you might have learned that African music only has 5 notes where European music has 7. Both makebeautifulmusic.
If we wish others to honor our Passive-aggressive, (overly laced
with political correctness and theory) style we use as Caucasians/Westerners
Then we should also take a step back and listen to the organic heart as well.

[Ron Tisdale]

;) I am not Caucasian.

I spent 1 year living in Africa. Nothing in Rev. Wright's speech reminded me of the things I heard and saw there.

Please note that I made no attempt to denigrate others in my posts.

Joseph, I am 46. You are one year older than my brother, and you are younger than Mike. And age validates ideas no more than anything else mentioned. Respect deserved is respect EARNED.

Audios,
Ron

[Chris Parkerson]

I am Hispanic from S. Texas. My ancestors had their Spanish Land Grant taken from them by the big ranchers after Texas Independence. My mother was held back inHouston schools due to her last name.

Yet, I am still culturally European/Caucasian. It has to do with thinking processes as much as blood.

[Dan Austin]

My wife evidences this truth as she tell me everyday her concerns about my "failings". She works harder than me, is a better
parent and is incredibly patient and forgiving of my
ample weaknesses.

What burdens women are willing to bear truly is remarkable, isn't it? OK, enough of the false humility now, back to talking about how great Joseph Arriola is or somebody might forget!

As such, "we" should not be insecure or restrictive of our egos...because the herd tells us that "we are
equal".


Well I can't speak for the rest of the herd, but don't worry, I don't think of you as equal to other posters here.

However, I for one am always aware that there
is always "another expert, master, guru, child,
student, who can teach and enlighten me.


Such humility. Truly a thing of beauty and a joy forever!

And yet, I tell myself everyday, "Just be aware that
at these lofty heights, you will encounter loniness
frustration and even ridicule."


How do you do it?!? How do you continue to strive to even greater heights of wonderfulness?!? BTW, where were those videos that proved what great fighting ability you have, and how wonderful your skills are? I missed them somehow. Since you made this post entirely about the wonder that is Joseph Arriola, you invite commentary about your attitude, skills, and emotional maturity. When you talk about your "accomplishments" and possessions you sound like the proverbial guy who buys the flashy sportscar to distract from his shortcomings, as it were. But as much as emotional malfunction fascinates me, there comes a time to invoke the ignore function. I must say though, you have positively taken the crown for the greatest ego/skills ratio I have ever witnessed on this list.

[tuturuhan]

MTL, Chris

We are all of African descent. DNA proves that we all came out of Africa more than 40,000 years ago.

In fact, my 2050, the United States will again be one big melting pot. Though before claiming any ethnic group, I choose to be American. American of Pilipino descent. American of Chinese descent, American of Asian Decent. American, American American...and after that global citizen.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[tuturuhan]

Gentlemen,

We don't earn respect.

We choose to be polite and respectful. This is a learned ettiquette. Respect is what a gentleman offers his friends, acquaintances and his enemies.

This is why I bow to my opponents, whether I like them or not. "Words of hate" are simply reflections of frustration and insecurity. They are for those who have failed in all other aspects of their lives. Does it need to be this way? No. Everyone, is born with opportunity. Everyone can work hard to achieve results.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Chris Parkerson]

MTL, Chris

We are all of African descent. DNA proves that we all came out of Africa more than 40,000 years ago.

In fact, my 2050, the United States will again be one big melting pot. Though before claiming any ethnic group, I choose to be American. American of Pilipino descent. American of Chinese descent, American of Asian Decent. American, American American...and after that global citizen.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

american. Yes. But a melting pot of cultural experiences that are part of how we organize consciousness, learning and communication.

Let's take one discussion...

One thesis is that structure cannot be learned through technique.would the Capoeirist agree? The Kali or Silat practicioner. Might they obtain structure from some combination of music, movement and rythm?

[tuturuhan]

Let's take one discussion...

One thesis is that structure cannot be learned through technique.would the Capoeirist agree? The Kali or Silat practicioner. Might they obtain structure from some combination of music, movement and rythm?[/QUOTE]

Nice...structure from the unseen vibrations. The golden mean...phi.

Sincerely
Joe

[Chris Parkerson]

Let's take one discussion...

One thesis is that structure cannot be learned through technique.would the Capoeirist agree? The Kali or Silat practicioner. Might they obtain structure from some combination of music, movement and rythm?

Nice...structure from the unseen vibrations. The golden mean...phi.

Sincerely
Joe[/QUOTE]

I guess I see so many of the arguments on the web as generating more heat than light because we think we are talking about the same objective data but in reality, we are not. Underlying the discussion are conflicting value systems. This is where the conflict lies and words just become tender for the fires.

[Chris Parkerson]

an acquaintace of my is doing her PhD thesis by giving the Book of Five Rings to a group of Cryps. She is then recording their interpretation of it. As a process, how will this change her. How will it change them?

[SeiserL]

IMHO, learning to capture just the body or the mind is good and works some to most of the time. But the art is to learn to capture both the body and the mind.

Its a harmonious unification things. Happens every time I hear an either/or choice.

[tuturuhan]

IMHO, learning to capture just the body or the mind is good and works some to most of the time. But the art is to learn to capture both the body and the mind.

Its a harmonious unification things. Happens every time I hear an either/or choice.

Sensei L,

In/out up/down...harmony and disharmony. One can learn to appreciate happiness and prospersity through the actual experience of saddness and poverty. Sadly, most people stay in their "hated jobs", "bad relationships" and unfullfillling llives.

Perhaps, we learn the same thing about "harmony". Many seek it...but, only in words. Living harmony means understanding fully the truths of disharmony. Like light, it (harmony) shines better in knowing darkness.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Chris Parkerson]

IMHO, learning to capture just the body or the mind is good and works some to most of the time. But the art is to learn to capture both the body and the mind.

Its a harmonious unification things. Happens every time I hear an either/or choice.

Sensei L

Good to hear your voice on this theme.

Chris

[tuturuhan]

Chris,

In the last several years I have been trying to reconcile "phi" the golden mean that Pythagoras lectured, in terms of "fractals" and my martial practice.

Everything is my practice is based on to the 1 to the 1 creating the 2 to the 1 and the 2 creating the 3 proceeding to the 5 to the 8 and then eventually repeating itself in smaller and smaller fractals.

The harmony between the dancers/opponents is created by the the initial contact. The 1 to the 2. The rhythm of the 3 provides the dance of continuous contact. The 5 creates energy. The 8 is power.

1,2...123, 1,2, 123. One Two cha cha cha.

As such, when you watch my students, they are moving to an internal metronome creating a connection to their opponents by finding their rhythm and then striking within the pattern of their established beat. (on simple terms it is the creation of connection to the breaking of that connection).

Listen to the drum beat. Look for the co-ordination of the drum beat to the "martial technique". In this tape you hear the "established beat" of the drums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhTianSJfI

The proponents are actually "dancing" to the movements. Yet, the strikes are freestyle. I am performing jazz.

Sincerely
Joe

[Chris Parkerson]

I shared this thread with my friend Shawn. 17 years a fisherman in Alaska, never had a driver's lisence, he is a Kali student and Arnold champion. He smiled. He also understands.

It can be difficult for the Carrtesian mind to reclaim unification...
i.e. Their connectedness to natural rythms, the ebb and flow of time without watches, the purity of living without domination, the true experience that there is ultimately one organic whole.

[Chris Parkerson]

when you mentioned PHI a couple of weeks ago, I was unsure what you meant. I look forward to hearing more when you care to share it.

[Mike Sigman]

This certainly belongs in this thread:

MONK GLOATS OVER YOGA CHAMPIONSHIP
-- 'I am the serenest!' he says

LHASA, TIBET-Employing the brash style that first brought him to prominence, SriDhananjai Bikram won the fifth annual International Yogi Competition yesterday with a world-record point total of 873.6.

"I am the serenest!" Bikram shouted to the estimated crowd of 20,000 yoga fans, vigorously pumping his fists. "No one is serener than Sri Dhananjai Bikram-I am the greatest monk of all time!"

Bikram averaged 1.89 breaths a minute during the two-hour competition, nearly .3 fewer than his nearest competitor, second-place finisher and two-time champion Sri Salil "The Hammer" Gupta.

The heavily favored Gupta was upset after the loss. "I should be able to beat that guy with one lung tied," Gupta said. "I'm beside myself right now, and I don't mean trans-bodily."

Bikram got off to a fast start at the Lhasa meet, which like most major competitions, is a six-event affair. In the first event, he attained total consciousness (TC) in just 2 minutes, 34 seconds, and set the tone for the rest of the meet by repeatedly shouting, "I'm blissful! You blissful?! I'm blissful!" to the other yogis.

Bikram, 33, burst onto the international yoga scene with a gold-mandala performance at the 1994 Bhutan Invitational. At that competition he premiered his aggressive style, at one point in the flexibility event sticking his middle toes out at the other yogis. While no prohibition exists against such behavior, according to Yoga League Commissioner Swami Prabhupada, such behavior is generally considered "unBuddhalike."

"I don't care what the critics say," Bikram said. "Sri Bikram is just gonna go out there and do Sri Bikram's own yoga thing."

Before the Bhutan meet, Bikram had never placed better than fourth. Many said he had forsaken rigorous training for the celebrity status accorded by his Bhutan win, endorsing Nike's new line of prayer mats and supposedly dating the Hindu goddess Shakti. But his performance this week will regain for him the number one computer ranking and earn him new respect, as well as for his coach Mahananda Vasti, the controversial guru some have called Bikram's "guru."

"My special training diet for Bikram of one super-charged, carbo-loaded grain of rice per day was essential to his win," Vasti said.

The defeated Gupta denied that Bikram's taunting was a factor in his inability to attain TC. "I just wasn't myself today," Gupta commented. "I wasn't any self today. I was an egoless particle of the universal no-soul."

In the second event, flexibility, Bikram maintained the lead by
supporting himself on his index fingers for the entire 15 minutes while touching the back of his skull to his lower spine. The feat was matched by Gupta, who first used the position at the 1990 Tokyo Zen-Off.

"That's my meditative position of spiritual ecstasy, not his," remarked Gupta. "He stole my thunder."

Bikram denied the charge, saying, "Gupta's been talking like that ever since he was a 3rd century Egyptian slave-owner."

Nevertheless, a strong showing by Gupta in the third event, the shotput, placed him within a lotus petal of the lead at the competition's halfway point.

But event number four, the contemplation of unanswerable riddles known as koans, proved the key to victory for Bikram.

The koan had long been thought the weak point of his spiritual arsenal, but his response to today's riddle-"Show me the face you had before you were born"-was reportedly "extremely illuminative," according to Commissioner Prabhupada.

While koan answers are kept secret from the public for fear of exposing the uninitiated multitudes to the terror of universal truth, insiders claim his answer had Prabhupada and the two other judges "highly enlightened."

With the event victory, Bikram built himself a nearly insurmountable lead, one he sustained through the yak-milk churn and breathing events to come away with the upset victory.

[tuturuhan]

I shared this thread with my friend Shawn. 17 years a fisherman in Alaska, never had a driver's lisence, he is a Kali student and Arnold champion. He smiled. He also understands.

It can be difficult for the Carrtesian mind to reclaim unification...
i.e. Their connectedness to natural rythms, the ebb and flow of time without watches, the purity of living without domination, the true experience that there is ultimately one organic whole.

MTL, Chris

We actually see this in chinese "lion dancing" and in "brazilian coepoira". The dummer is the lead in the dance. It is not simply the dance/fight between the proponents. It is the direction of the drummer and the audience as a whole.

The vibrations, the rhythym and the energy (life force) of all elements create a unity...a harmony if you will.

Sincerely
Joe

[Chris Parkerson]

Shawn is naturally hard to throw, all 160 pounds of him. Partly due to his devotion to cycling, partly due to his Kali and Silat.

Yet at times, he will take ukeme only to "reverse" the throw or simply to continue the fight on the ground like braer rabbit being thrown into the briar patch. A young Aikidoka found this out over weekend practice during some lunch-break scrimmage with bokken and Escrima stick.

Form and formlessness. Structure and flexibility. Assumptions made and challenged. A great performance by one who knows the ways of rythm, flow and non-contention. The way of the fisherman's knife.

[tuturuhan]

MTL, Chris,

Compliance in Throwing:

Ok...so yesterday we were using the cane, staff and the 3 sectional staff in joint locks and throws...

When you use a "weapon" the fulcrum and the level and the changes in weight distribution become "visually clear". The "stick" shows you where to apply the lever and fulcrum. Best yet, it "multiplies" your force in applying the wrist technique or the arm bar, leg bar or neck bar.

Following with a change in the distribution of weight a "throw" occurs.

The issue for my students in this particular practice was the "fall". Many attempted to avoid the "throw and the fall" by "resisting". Since our environment is "mat" free we rarely take the technique to the actual "fall" to the ground. As such, they have naturally been trained to resist the throw and fall.

Falling--

However, I explained to them that in the "throwing arts" the first thing you learn to do is "fall". As such, I would counter their counters and throw them to the ground none-the-less. They didn't like it.

I explained that the reason falling was taught "first" in throwing arts was for purposes of self defense (how not to get hurt when thrown to a hard surface). Falling then becomes "compliance". The more you resist, the greater the stored energy...the greater the impact when the resistence is released.

As such, you must learn "compliance" in falling as a matter of self protection.

Interestingly, we were in the plaza in Oakland with all the other tai chi and gung fu groups as the "lessons" unfolded. Just after our practice, a group of talented skate boarders arrived on the scene. They were performing jumps and stunts. The techniques did not always result with the perfection of re-landing on the board. I watched as they took "falls".

I told my students to stop their "after practice" conversation and watch the skateboarders. I asked them "Who is the best? And why is he the best?"

"Now, watch what happens when they "fall to the ground", I continued.

They could see readily that when the skate boarders fell to the hard concrete surfaces their bodies became soft and resilient. The skateboarders absorbed the concrete and rolled to their feet. It was the best exhibit of "falling" for self protection that I had seen in a long time. More boggling to my mind, was the fact that hey had all learned to fall naturally.

Sincerely
Joe

[Chris Parkerson]

Necessity breeds.......

Shawn has an incredible ability to keep his center of gravity alightned with his stance and base. Reduce his bas, he has created another one with low Silat stance work.

But what came first, his time on the ocean, gaffing, hauling and cutting fish while standing on a small playform being pitched and rolled by ocean waves gave him an incredible sense of structure and balance. He probably chose Kali and Silat because (1) it was a blade system and (2) it resonated with the way he already moved.

[phitruong]

when you mentioned PHI a couple of weeks ago, I was unsure what you meant. I look forward to hearing more when you care to share it.

You guys need to stop use me in vain. I am golden because I was born that way, being yellow skin and all. And I am also a mean bastard. But you didn't have to say it. :)

Also, I don't think I want to be shared between you two gentlemen; my wife would kill me if she found out. :D

First I never got any sleep in calculus class, now this. I think I'll track down them greek folks and show them my chi in an upsilon manner. ;)

meanwhile, you guys need to stop using my name or I'll track you both down. It will be "mano o mano, man to man, you and my GUARDS!!!". :)

[tuturuhan]

meanwhile, you guys need to stop using my name or I'll track you both down. It will be "mano o mano, man to man, you and my GUARDS!!!". :)[/QUOTE]

Phi,

You need to brush up not only on you geometry but also your spanish. "Mano" means hand in Spanish. It comes from not only the Spanish but from the latin as in "manipulate". As such, the quote is more akin to "hand to hand" combat.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Chris Parkerson]

You guys need to stop use me in vain. I am golden because I was born that way, being yellow skin and all. And I am also a mean bastard. But you didn't have to say it. :)

Also, I don't think I want to be shared between you two gentlemen; my wife would kill me if she found out. :D

First I never got any sleep in calculus class, now this. I think I'll track down them greek folks and show them my chi in an upsilon manner. ;)

meanwhile, you guys need to stop using my name or I'll track you both down. It will be "mano o mano, man to man, you and my GUARDS!!!". :)

Phi,

Your comment was pure genious, hillariously funny and on point. Cudos. Thankyou.

But is was interesting how a term like "pure heart" spawned such diverse reactions.

No one asked what I meant, many assumed a variety of things.... few had a positive connotation.

"Pure Heart" has to do with the way some folks react to boundaries that have been invaded. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, "I'm OK, You're not-type thinking" or any other form of heirarchy.

Here is Joe Arriola's expression of "pure heart".

As for losing my temper and punching back when attacked. Well, I am a bit old fashioned. I think a man should protect his family, his values and his beliefs.

Here is Reverend Joshua Wright's

“And why am I speaking out now? In our community, we have something called playing the dozens. If you think I'm going to let you talk about my mama...
(LAUGHTER)
WRIGHT: ... And her religious tradition and my daddy and his religious tradition and my grandma, you got another think coming.
Understand, when you're talking about my mama, once again, and talking about my faith tradition once again, how long do you let somebody talk about your faith tradition before you speak up and say something in defense of -- this is not an attack on Jeremiah Wright. Once again, let me say it again. This is an attack on the black church.”

Wutang Clan's "pure heart" can bee seen in RZA and GZA's
Backronymns:

(1) "Witty Unpredictable Talent And Natural Game" and

(2)"Wisdom, Universe, Truth, Allah, Nation, and God"
their

In the primer I bought before working within a Japanese corporation "Doing Business with the Japanese", there was a statement that Japanese expect that if "one" think is said, you should understand "ten". How can we understand the ten without doing some pretty meticulous analysis and passing it through the haragei process?

You cannot understand the ten by just assuming. And if we are not meticulous about words and verbal transactions, how can we hope to see more deeply into technique?

[phitruong]

Phi,

"Pure Heart" has to do with the way some folks react to boundaries that have been invaded. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, "I'm OK, You're not-type thinking" or any other form of heirarchy.

Here is Joe Arriola's expression of "pure heart".

Quote:
As for losing my temper and punching back when attacked. Well, I am a bit old fashioned. I think a man should protect his family, his values and his beliefs.

Here is Reverend Joshua Wright's

Wutang Clan's "pure heart" can bee seen in RZA and GZA's
Backronymns:

(1) "Witty Unpredictable Talent And Natural Game" and

(2)"Wisdom, Universe, Truth, Allah, Nation, and God"
their

In the primer I bought before working within a Japanese corporation "Doing Business with the Japanese", there was a statement that Japanese expect that if "one" think is said, you should understand "ten". How can we understand the ten without doing some pretty meticulous analysis and passing it through the haragei process?

You cannot understand the ten by just assuming. And if we are not meticulous about words and verbal transactions, how can we hope to see more deeply into technique?

I am ok with the protection of the family thing. However, I don't have the need to protect my values or beliefs. In my opinion, only the weak needs protection.

the Japanese isn't the only one who had the idea. The Chinese and the Vietnamese said the same thing. The Vietnamese version: ho.c mo^.t bie^'t mu+o+`i. Direct translation: learn one, understand ten.

Me, I don't like to use big words, because I was a low-born farmer and we liked to keep thing simple. Folks understand simple words much better, at least I am. Simple words like "don't step in the cow shit" or "don't stand behind the horse" or "take this spade here and dig a hole there". very easy to understand. I used the same approach with martial arts such as aikido: keep it plain and simple.

[tuturuhan]

I am ok with the protection of the family thing. However, I don't have the need to protect my values or beliefs. In my opinion, only the weak needs protection.

Me, I don't like to use big words, because I was a low-born farmer and we liked to keep thing simple. Folks understand simple words much better, at least I am. Simple words like "don't step in the cow shit" or "don't stand behind the horse" or "take this spade here and dig a hole there". very easy to understand. I used the same approach with martial arts such as aikido: keep it plain and simple.

Phi,

Hmmm...well at least you owned the land. :)

My father was a farm worker, my uncles were farmworkers and janitors and I paid for college by spending my summers in the fields.

As for martial arts...I agree...and disagree. I agree, in that its all about "being able to use your technique". I disagree in that the fire of "combat" teaches us that life is complex and that we must always strive "to learn".

Most certainly if I'm ever in your area I'd love to cross shovels...manure or manure...mano o mano. :)

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[tuturuhan]

Compliance and Force

When you get a brand new student they are almost always compliant. They just want to learn. When you get a student who has practiced another style...you get two kinds. You get those who will "resist", because they are testing what they learned from the other style. You also get those who continue to be open minded.

Those who "resist" are challenging the teacher, verbally or in fact in technique. If the teacher is good, this is a good thing. He welcomes, the challenge. He demonstrates his skill in front of the new student and his following.

If the teacher fails in the demonstration, it should teach him something. One, if he does not demonstrate his skill...he is reflecting his fear and insecurity. He must realize that he is suffering the "illness" of fear and insecurity. He must act to rectify. Two, if he fails to successfully demonstrate and loses against the challenger, he must not lie to himself about his supposed skills. He again must rectify by "getting better".

As such, the resistance/challenge should not be seen as something bad. It should be seen as an opportunity to "improve and learn".

Do I still experience "fear and insecurity" after all these years? Yes, of course.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Chris Parkerson]

Great post Tuturihan

Chris

[Chris Parkerson]

Great post Tuturuhan

Chris

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

This certainly belongs in this thread:

Holy cow! :D That was funny... No idea where that is from, but I would guess The Onion.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Holy cow! :D That was funny... No idea where that is from, but I would guess The Onion.
http://dananau.com/wabe/humor/monkgloats.pdf
:D

[tuturuhan]

The mathematician Godel's theory: Some problems cannot be solved.

Yesterday, I was teaching one of my private students. He is, was, and will be a mathematician who trained at Caltech and worked at Lawrence Livermore Lab. He has been teaching Tai Chi Chuan for the last twenty years. He is a shared student of the "incredible Wilson Ng" and myself.

As always, our practices are filled with "tradition, an analysis of tradition, the structure of theory and concept, and going beyond". Lately, I have been teaching him how to use the 3 sectional staff "practically for fighting" using baqua footwork and tai chi chuan senstitivity.

At the end of practice I showed him a "math" book I had been reading. It is supposedly a book for "lay people" that uses math to explain the world, its origins and functions. Of course, given "the math" it is a book far beyond my level of "math" expertise. After gazing through it, Geoff stated, the true understanding of the concepts are far beyond the grasp of most "math" adepts.

I felt better about my deficiencies. Yet, strikingly I felt I was "seeing" in the math concepts everything I had, am learning, and will learn about martial arts.

Tradition is for ever encapsulated in plexiglass. Yet, it too changes over the years. Everything that is mass reverts to energy. It may take 10 million years but, it was revert. Interestlingy, most of the "tradition" that most of the people are talking about is less than 150 years old. The words tai chi and ba qua are much older, but, their moniker to the styles of tai chi chuan and ba qua are not more than 175 years old.

Sadly, MMA has become globalized in a short 15 years. It was be "traditional". Is it tried and true? Yes, for those whose capacity is limited. In a real fight all MMA guys would lose to my "hidden knife". Their utility is limited to the ring of the octogon. Their utility does not extend to even to the "street" much less to the "battles of life".

As such, it is not tradition I look for. It is utility. As such, I respect tradition in hopes that I might find utility. (Remember, even if the style had deadly fighters and techniques...if the student lacks capacity and capability the style is useless)

Perhaps, Godel is correct...some things simply can't be answered.

After we finished our lessons, Geoff talked about his classmate who had learned the same tai chi he had learned. He said "Ken teaches his tai chi in exactly the same way he learned it from Wilson. He never diverts. He fails to be "dynamic".

I replied "Then he is stuck. He will never understand the "infinite uses". What's worse...is that he never learned it correctly in the first place.

All said, this thread has left me in a quandry. According to "pure math" some people explore its lofty heights will no thought of its application. I have in the last several years been "stubborn" and stuck in my ways about "the utility" of everything we study. I have much to think about as I reframe my techniques and beliefs "given the new information"

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Al Gutierrez]

Sadly, MMA has become globalized in a short 15 years. It was be "traditional". Is it tried and true? Yes, for those whose capacity is limited. In a real fight all MMA guys would lose to my "hidden knife". Their utility is limited to the ring of the octogon. Their utility does not extend to even to the "street" much less to the "battles of life".

Those are some pretty broad generalizations - and frankly, I don't buy it.

Here's one example from the streets of Bali of MMA's utility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOQLg7Kc8So

Compliant training partners, the golden mean and knowledge of angular momentum and other theories all are capable of impressing folks who don't really know any better, but they didn't help Urijah to survive that incident, nor will they help any of us should we find ourselves in some similar situation. It was his MMA training, his conditioning, his experience fighting and preparing to fight for a living that allowed him to escape with his life.

Now Urijah might be an exceptional individual, but I would wager that most MMA practitioners with 1-3 years of training would still fare far better in similar circumstances than most aikido or tai chi practitioners with even 3 or 4 times more experience. With all due respect, I think if you took just practitioners from the dojos/schools represented by readers of this forum, the majority would be exhausted just running at a moderate pace (or doing jumping jacks) for the length of time that Urijah was actually fighting against multiple opponents and running for his life. If you also were to have someone actually hit them repeatedly on the back of the head (never mind the brass knuckles, bottles, and rocks) ask yourself how many in your school could even continue to run for that length of time much less fight back and/or defend themselves effectively using methods practiced in your school or style?

MMA athletes these days train very intensely and are able to perform under extreme duress in part because of their physical training/conditioning, but also because the by-product of that kind of training is also an extraordinary level of mental toughness/confidence. Traditional martial arts training in aikido, tai chi and most other internal arts does little or nothing to prepare it's practitioners to perform under conditions of extreme duress, therefore the odd practitioner/teacher who is able to perform for real in such conditions is likely an exception to the norm and their level of mental toughness/confidence is arguably not a result of their TMA training, but rather from some other experience or perhaps even natural attributes.

As for utility in other areas of life I'd say that those involved in professional MMA these days are doing far better in economic terms than anyone ever imagined even a decade ago.

Al Gtz.

[tuturuhan]

[QUOTE=Al Gutierrez;206689]Those are some pretty broad generalizations - and frankly, I don't buy it.

MMA athletes these days train very intensely and are able to perform under extreme duress in part because of their physical training/conditioning, but also because the by-product of that kind of training is also an extraordinary level of mental toughness/confidence. Traditional martial arts training in aikido, tai chi and most other internal arts does little or nothing to prepare it's practitioners to perform under conditions of extreme duress, therefore the odd practitioner/teacher who is able to perform for real in such conditions is likely an exception to the norm and their level of mental toughness/confidence is arguably not a result of their TMA training, but rather from some other experience or perhaps even natural attributes.

As for utility in other areas of life I'd say that those involved in professional MMA these days are doing far better in economic terms than anyone ever imagined even a decade ago.

Mr. Al,

You are absolutely correct. I for one, at 51 would not last more than 5 minutes in the octogon. But, then would the MMA guy last if he was in my "choice of environment". Even if he is 6'5, runs 10 miles a day, and wrestles 5 hours a day...he wouldn't be able to survive my technique. Of course, at 51 I only plan on using the technique in less than 30 seconds. It's a bit of a "death touch".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfelZfbZnQs

Could the average 25 year old MMA guy beat me in other aspects:

1) In a courtroom

2) In a long lasting marriage

3) Money in the Bank, a home, rental properties, stock portfolio

4) Rasining children

5) Taking care of sick parents and watching them die.

How many of them have graduated from college much less graduate school. How many have even heard of "phi".
How many of them are still living at home with Mommy and Daddy?

As for economics and making a living. It's a bit like winning the lottery. In five years, after winning the title of MMA champion, the 25 year old is now 30. He has no skills for winning the real battle, "life". And by the time he is 35, he has no money left. He has "spent" it all because he had no knowledge of financial planning.

Now, more interestingly, is the martial artist who could still kick the butt of "anyone" who walks in his doors in his 50's 60's and 70's. This guy is usually a success in many aspects of his life. He fights, not simply with his body, but with his mind.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Dan Austin]

Even if he is 6'5, runs 10 miles a day, and wrestles 5 hours a day...he wouldn't be able to survive my technique. Of course, at 51 I only plan on using the technique in less than 30 seconds. It's a bit of a "death touch".

So in other words, your skills are useless in practical terms. Killing people for punching you is not legally sound self-defense. It doesn't impress adult martial artists on discussion boards either.

[Upyu]

[QUOTE=Al Gutierrez;206689]Those are some pretty broad generalizations - and frankly, I don't buy it.

MMA athletes these days train very intensely and are able to perform under extreme duress in part because of their physical training/conditioning, but also because the by-product of that kind of training is also an extraordinary level of mental toughness/confidence. Traditional martial arts training in aikido, tai chi and most other internal arts does little or nothing to prepare it's practitioners to perform under conditions of extreme duress, therefore the odd practitioner/teacher who is able to perform for real in such conditions is likely an exception to the norm and their level of mental toughness/confidence is arguably not a result of their TMA training, but rather from some other experience or perhaps even natural attributes.

As for utility in other areas of life I'd say that those involved in professional MMA these days are doing far better in economic terms than anyone ever imagined even a decade ago.

Mr. Al,

You are absolutely correct. I for one, at 51 would not last more than 5 minutes in the octogon. But, then would the MMA guy last if he was in my "choice of environment". Even if he is 6'5, runs 10 miles a day, and wrestles 5 hours a day...he wouldn't be able to survive my technique. Of course, at 51 I only plan on using the technique in less than 30 seconds. It's a bit of a "death touch".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfelZfbZnQs

Could the average 25 year old MMA guy beat me in other aspects:

1) In a courtroom

2) In a long lasting marriage

3) Money in the Bank, a home, rental properties, stock portfolio

4) Rasining children

5) Taking care of sick parents and watching them die.

How many of them have graduated from college much less graduate school. How many have even heard of "phi".
How many of them are still living at home with Mommy and Daddy?

As for economics and making a living. It's a bit like winning the lottery. In five years, after winning the title of MMA champion, the 25 year old is now 30. He has no skills for winning the real battle, "life". And by the time he is 35, he has no money left. He has "spent" it all because he had no knowledge of financial planning.

Now, more interestingly, is the martial artist who could still kick the butt of "anyone" who walks in his doors in his 50's 60's and 70's. This guy is usually a success in many aspects of his life. He fights, not simply with his body, but with his mind.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Someone should repost this on Sherdog or MMA.tv

<gets out the popcorn>
:D

[tuturuhan]

[QUOTE=Joseph Arriola;206694]

Someone should repost this on Sherdog or MMA.tv

<gets out the popcorn>
:D

Rob,

Any time you are in San Francisco look me up. Come to one of my seminars. But, of course, you probably would like to entice me to come to one of your seminars.

Rob, what do you do for a living, when you aren't on the boards?

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Michael Douglas]

Could the average 25 year old MMA guy beat me in other aspects:

1) In a courtroom

2) In a long lasting marriage

3) Money in the Bank, a home, rental properties, stock portfolio

4) Rasining children

5) Taking care of sick parents and watching them die.

How many of them have graduated from college much less graduate school. How many have even heard of "phi".
How many of them are still living at home with Mommy and Daddy?

Here we go again?
Courtroom : err ... he could hire a lawyer who could actually spell?
Well, a 25 year-old couldn't possibly beat the awesome Joseph at long lasting marriage.
Money money money. Must be funny. In a rich man's world.
Raisining children. Will sultanas do? Currants? Raisining skills are well known to be underdeveloped until the age of Forty, that 25 year old goon doesn't have a chance, he'll have a make do with slightly shrinkly grapes.
Watching sick parents die? A dubious claim to mastery. What if the evil but fit 25 year-old has healthy parents? Terrible. He loses in 'watching parents die' to the great Turutuhan.

[Kevin Leavitt]

move over one seat Rob and share that popcorn.

[tuturuhan]

move over one seat Rob and share that popcorn.

Kevin,

I'm quite disappointed in you. But, then I'm not your father.

Supposedly you are a leader of men someone who supposedly has an open mind. Yet, you are persuaded by "mob" mentality...a bully who joins the gang. I thought you were a real soldier. Instead, you hang around with the "weekend warriors", the intermediates.

You and the rest of your "small pack" attack individuals but are frightened of fighting your own fight. On every board, I've seen the bullying and the reactions. Give me your address and I'll send you and Rob money for popcorn.

Otherwise if either of you is in San Francisco, I invite you to one of my classes where you can teach a class.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Mike Sigman]

Instead, you hang around with the "weekend warriors", the intermediates. I always thought it was the "intermediates" who blew their own horn the most about what they can do. Sort of like the "empty water can makes the most noise", etc. Maybe I was wrong. :rolleyes:

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Dan Austin]

Rob, what do you do for a living, when you aren't on the boards?


There's that rude and irrelevant question again.

I don't know what Rob does for a living, neither do I care - at least he doesn't claim to be a Life Master on the internet. If one looks at your videos on YouTube, they are universally rated badly and the comments section is full of hecklers. Here you claim you are being picked on. There seems to be a pattern in the reactions you provoke online. What's the common factor? Trust me, it ain't the rest of the world being jealous of the lofty height at which you think you exist, it's just your attitude and tastelessly self-important posts.

[tuturuhan]

I always thought it was the "intermediates" who blew their own horn the most about what they can do. Sort of like the "empty water can makes the most noise", etc. Maybe I was wrong. :rolleyes:

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike,

You do.

PS Im still waiting to see some of your tapes pushing hands, weapons, or fighting. When???

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Mike Sigman]

PS Im still waiting to see some of your tapes pushing hands, weapons, or fighting. When???
I think we've been through this before, Joseph. I'm not the one blowing my own horn who feels the need to post videos. If I personally make a point that requires a video of me to clarify that point, rest assured that I will post one. A video because some self-styled expert wants to do a comparison or get into personal contention? I don't feel the least interested or compelled.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[tuturuhan]

I think we've been through this before, Joseph. I'm not the one blowing my own horn who feels the need to post videos. If I personally make a point that requires a video of me to clarify that point, rest assured that I will post one. A video because some self-styled expert wants to do a comparison or get into personal contention? I don't feel the least interested or compelled.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

That's good. Well, I am an expert Mike. You can read my articles in Martial Arts Magazines and books. You can look me up in the California Bar Association. You can even call the University of California about my degrees. You can even come to one of my seminars. How about you Mike? (Oh that's right no videos...because you are "just a beginner.)

But, I think you'd enjoy "feeling it". Come to one of my classes when you are on the West Coast and I'll teach you a few things. (Oh but, that's what you tell all the other guys on this board that you bully.) :)

Mike, do you like sparring with a lawyer. I like teaching you.

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Dan Austin]

That's good. Well, I am an expert Mike.


Correction: self-styled expert. It's already been shown that you have no true expertise in some arts you claim, like Tai Chi.

You can read my articles in Martial Arts Magazines and books.

Pass.

You can look me up in the California Bar Association.

I used to wonder why lawyers have such a reputation, but I note that you and Mr. Mead are both lawyers by trade. Mystery solved.

Mike, do you like sparring with a lawyer. I like teaching you.

Wait...you think you are looking better in these exchanges?!? Wow. Talk about self-perception disorder.

[Mike Sigman]

Mike, do you like sparring with a lawyer. I like teaching you.Sadly, I'm a slow learner, Joseph. However, I think you have indeed been teaching a lot of people on this forum.... about you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[tuturuhan]

Sadly, I'm a slow learner, Joseph. However, I think you have indeed been teaching a lot of people on this forum.... about you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

It's not about me Mike. It's all about YOU.

I'm open minded. I'm ready to come to Colorado to pay homage.

Yet, it is so difficult. You keep saying to everyone that you are a "beginner" and then you want us to come to Colorado to learn the real thing. Which is it?

I just want to know more about YOU. I want to know what I am paying for. Are you a real for goodness sake black belter? Perhaps, I should read your website. Now, isn't that reasonable?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Mike Sigman]

you want us to come to Colorado to learn the real thing. Cite? Please quote where I have asked or invited someone to come to Colorado. I'd suggest that this is just more of the fantasy stories that you seem to indulge in. Trust me, I have no desire whatsoever to give you any information.

Is there some reason why you feel it is important to drag me and my personal life into a discussion that seems to be mainly about you and your greatness, Joseph? Are you seething about something?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[eyrie]

Are you a real for goodness sake black belter? For goodness sakes... what has the color of one's belt have anything to do with this? 3 pages of self-aggrandizement drivel, personal attacks and little to do with the topic. About time this thread got shut down....

<passes the popcorn>

[tuturuhan]

Mike,

Ok buddy, time for dinner. Time for the kids to take their baths. So, you get the last word as always. Go ahead, more of your passive aggressive attempts at word play. I'll be looking for it tomorrow morning. :)

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Mike Sigman]

Go ahead, more of your passive aggressive attempts at word play. I'll be looking for it tomorrow morning. :)How about for once following the logic. You made an assertion that I was inviting people to Colorado. I asked for a cite, in order to give you a chance, once again, to correct a misstatement by you about me. I'll look for your corrected response or your cite tomorrow morning.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Upyu]

For goodness sakes... what has the color of one's belt have anything to do with this? 3 pages of self-aggrandizement drivel, personal attacks and little to do with the topic. About time this thread got shut down....

<passes the popcorn>

Anyone want caramel on theirs? I'm about done with the butter topping
<grabs another bag>
:D

[tuturuhan]

Anyone want caramel on theirs? I'm about done with the butter topping
<grabs another bag>
:D

Rob,

You are invited too. Come check out and old man. You young boys are so good talking.

I love the multiple attack. Perhaps I'll teach it to you.

Check out some more of my tapes. But then, you still haven't developed the "internal eye". Talk to me in about twenty years Rob. :)

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[tuturuhan]

How about for once following the logic. You made an assertion that I was inviting people to Colorado. I asked for a cite, in order to give you a chance, once again, to correct a misstatement by you about me. I'll look for your corrected response or your cite tomorrow morning.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

You are so easy to manipulate. Same arguements. Citations???

You got to start "paying me" to respond to you. Say $500 an hour. Naw, this is just too much fun.

Bring some more of your allies in, Rob Johns and Dan Hardin aren't enough. (Oh but you do the speaking for everyone. You are better then those guys. You are the smarter one.)

But then, I like going against all of you at once. I like the practice. The rest of beginners...well they aren't good enough to play with.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

[Mike Sigman]

Citations???

I suspect this is about the level of ethics most of us had you pegged at. :)

Mike Sigman

[Dan Austin]

But then, I like going against all of you at once. I like the practice. The rest of beginners...well they aren't good enough to play with.


Sure you do. At first you complained about bullies and getting picked on. Now that you realize your attitude causes universal antagonism, you're going to pretend to like it. Face it, no one is impressed, even if you give yourself the label "grandmaster". Instead of trying one childish tactic after another, why not just find a board where people appreciate endless boasting from someone who obviously isn't as impressive as he thinks he is.

[tuturuhan]

I suspect this is about the level of ethics most of us had you pegged at. :)

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Your word fluency is elluding you. Try again.

Best
Joe

[Mike Sigman]

Your word fluency is elluding you. Try again.
Classic. You try to talk down to someone and you misspell "eluding". :D

[Dan Austin]

Mike,

Your word fluency is elluding you. Try again.

Best
Joe

And your spelling is eluding you. LOL.

How about let's not try again, obviously you're going to pollute the board until everyone ignores you, and then claim victory. Whatever makes you feel better. I recommend a psychiatrist.

Mike has met up with lots of people, all of whom verify that he teaches actual body mechanics, as opposed to just blathering about feminine energy and other nonsense and calling that internal. You don't know what you're talking about, it's obvious to everyone, but your ego won't let you walk away. It's time for the moderator to shut this thread down.

[tuturuhan]

Classic. You try to talk down to someone and you misspell "eluding". :D

Mike,

Thank you for picking that up. I value you as a proof reader.

Best
Joe

[DH]

Joseph
Leave me out of the discussion unless you care to address me directly. I don't recall engaging you here-mostly for the simple reason that after reviewing various materials from you I consider you a waste of time.
Your knife video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfelZfbZnQs
should be considered a treatise on what NOT to do when engaging in weapons work. In any discussion on Uke and compliance it is a model of those very ideas; compliance and Uke not knowing what the hell they are doing. That crap is not going to work well for you with someone who knows how to play. Your distancing and targeting and retained connection in knife work reminds me of all of the other inane "combat knife' videos of the 90's. I see you are pleased that your are published- then again so are many; from the excellent to the loopy, strange, and outright ridiculous. Evidence shows being published as a martial art teacher is without meaning.

As for your off-hand comparisons of me to Mike and Rob. You don't know any of us, so what are you comparing?
I'm not a young guy, I have been round the block and back again, and contrary to many suburban white boy martial artists I have been stabbed, stabbed at, and been in nasty places many times. You may carry that forward to my lengthy proclivity of getting a kick out of beating the crap out of TMAers who think they got the stuff. Most fail from the lack of the proper mental fortitude before it even begins-onward to the ridiculous things they do that they consider effective in a live environment. Add to that showing them effective means of generating real power and sensitivity in their bodies as I am able.
All that said I would NEVER claim an expertise in anything. Men I know who ARE experts consider it to be rather a burden that gets in the way of their own play time. Odd that I never hear them refer to themselves that way. Most call themselves students.

You and your students are pleased with your training. I'd leave it at that.
Please refrain from responding or addressing me. I'm not interested in a dialogue with you
Good luck in your pursuits.

[George S. Ledyard]

I would like to remind folks about that wonderful feature, the "ignore" button. I use it occasionally to keep my "wa" harmonious. This forum should be called "Mutual Pissing Contests" rather than Non-Aikido Martial Traditions; reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live Newscasts with Dan Ackroyd and Jane Curtain. "Jane you ignorant slut..." "Dan you fascist pig".

Seriously, it isn't worth it. Once you know that virtually nothing you say will register with someone and it's apparent that nothing they say will be something you agree with, then there's no reason to have further exchange. When you have someone who consistently creates acrimonious exchanges or whose contributions are quite simply of the self aggrandizement type, then push the button on them and back to exchanging with folks who are interested in what you are saying or are saying something you are interested in hearing.

[tuturuhan]

I would like to remind folks about that wonderful feature, the "ignore" button. I use it occasionally to keep my "wa" harmonious. This forum should be called "Mutual Pissing Contests" rather than Non-Aikido Martial Traditions; reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live Newscasts with Dan Ackroyd and Jane Curtain. "Jane you ignorant slut..." "Dan you fascist pig".

Seriously, it isn't worth it. Once you know that virtually nothing you say will register with someone and it's apparent that nothing they say will be something you agree with, then there's no reason to have further exchange. When you have someone who consistently creates acrimonious exchanges or whose contributions are quite simply of the self aggrandizement type, then push the button on them and back to exchanging with folks who are interested in what you are saying or are saying something you are interested in hearing.

Sensei,

You are correct. But, I think "all" of us still enjoy watching Saturday Night Live. We especially like the "classics".

Now, imagine what it must be like for our "leaders" in government. They have to filter through what is "real" and what is not. I have a hard enough time raising my kids as they shout and fight between each other. So, being on this board is but a "fractal" of real life. Isn't it just "classic"? :)

But, thank you for your input Sensei. I think you are probably a better man than I.

Best,
Joseph T.Oliva Arriola

[akiy]

Thread closed due to its devolving into personal discussions.

Come on, folks. You know better.

-- Jun