PDA

View Full Version : Do we call ourselves Aikidoka


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


nikonl
01-12-2002, 11:12 AM
anyone knows whats the purpose of the current poll??Jun?

Edward
01-12-2002, 11:29 AM
I think that Aikidoka is a person who seriously and loyally practices Aikido. Consequently is not an Aikidoka someone who practices Aikido and not Karate for instance because the dojo is nearest to his home, or the cheapest, or because his wife/daughter/girl friend insists that he accompanies her to training...etc. Or someone who practices Aikido among several martial arts but does not have any particular loyalty feelings for Aikido.

The purpose of the poll is obvious. Jun probably wants to know the percentage of dedicated aikidoka among aikiweb visitors.

I'm curious to see if my guess is correct. Over to you, Jun ;)

Chris Li
01-12-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Edward
I think that Aikidoka is a person who seriously and loyally practices Aikido. Consequently is not an Aikidoka someone who practices Aikido and not Karate for instance because the dojo is nearest to his home, or the cheapest, or because his wife/daughter/girl friend insists that he accompanies her to training...etc. Or someone who practices Aikido among several martial arts but does not have any particular loyalty feelings for Aikido.

The purpose of the poll is obvious. Jun probably wants to know the percentage of dedicated aikidoka among aikiweb visitors.

I'm curious to see if my guess is correct. Over to you, Jun ;)

I would think that he's more interested in who thinks that the term ought to be used for the average Aikido student. Jun?

Basically, the term is common in the west, but you almost never hear someone use that usage in Japan. Most things with a "ka" ending denote a "professional", of which there are very few in Aikido (even in Japan). For example, a "shashinka" would be a "photographer", but I think you would almost never use that term to refer to an amateur photographer, not matter how dedicated.

Best,

Chris

mj
01-12-2002, 06:43 PM
I always associated 'ka' with high proficiency. Judoka, katateka, kidoka.

I voted no :eek:

akiy
01-12-2002, 09:34 PM
Actually, I was just curious how many people out there would call themselves an "aikidoka."

Chris is pretty much onto my line of thinking here, though. For me and for most Japanese people, the -ka suffix denotes, basically, one whose life revolves around whatever precedes the suffix -- it's usually the person's profession and/or livelihood. It's the kind of thing one would answer if asked, "So, what do you do for a living?" It's far more than something that one takes "seriously." I don't know if, for example, Japanese judo players in the Olympics would call themselves judoka.

So, to be honest, I guess it might be considered a bit of a trick question...

For the record, I, for one, do not call myself an aikidoka...

-- Jun

nikonl
01-13-2002, 01:59 AM
wow,nice trick, i fell for it...hahaha :D

Chris Li
01-13-2002, 02:21 AM
Originally posted by akiy
For the record, I, for one, do not call myself an aikidoka...

-- Jun

I call myself "Chris", but that's just me.

Best,

Chris

Edward
01-13-2002, 03:41 AM
Well, I initially voted yes. But according to Jun's explanation, I would vote No. And I have no intention to become one no matter what.

Cheers,
Edward

Edward
01-13-2002, 10:26 AM
By the way, what would the correct Japanese word be for someone who practices Aikido?

PeterR
01-13-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by akiy
For the record, I, for one, do not call myself an aikidoka...
I did on occaision - the ka designation is something I learned on Aikido-L (listka) but after it was explained what the ka meant (to me a while ago) I no longer do. I know only a few people that I consider professional Aikidoists.
Originally posted by Chris
I call myself "Chris", but that's just me.Good one :D

akiy
01-13-2002, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Edward
By the way, what would the correct Japanese word be for someone who practices Aikido?

If someone were to ask me what kind of hobbies ("shumi") I have, I'd say something along the lines of "I do aikido" ("aikido wo shite imasu"). I don't think there's any precise term to designate someone as "One who practices aikido."

-- Jun

mj
01-13-2002, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by akiy


("aikido wo shite imasu")-- Jun

Probably describes my aikido.

David Humm
01-13-2002, 09:48 PM
Best belly laugh i've have for bloody ages mate nice one

:D :D :D

Duarh
01-14-2002, 03:00 AM
I voted 'no'.

I did not do so because I am not dedicated to Aikido, since I don't see any way in which I could be more dedicated. I did so because I am a beginner, merely six months into the art, and I feel that I haven't even begun to see what Aikido is about - I am just trying to learn ways of moving. Thus, I can't really call myself someone who does 'Aikido' instead of someone who goes to the dojo where a sensei who does do Aikido instructs.

Perhaps, some day in the future, I will be able to answer with 'yes' to such a question

Tomsk

Johan Tibell
01-15-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Chris Li


I call myself "Chris", but that's just me.

Best,

Chris

Yeah, because I most definitely don't call myself Chris. ;)

Regards,

Johan

Jim23
01-15-2002, 06:39 PM
Personally, I like Aikidologist.

Or, maybe Aikidoker. Maybe not.

Or even ... I am Aikido.

Jim23

shihonage
01-15-2002, 06:45 PM
I guess I'm an Aikidork.

And if I ever get a dog, he will be called, that's right, Aikidog* .




___________________
* No, not really.

Mike Haftel
07-17-2007, 08:07 AM
If someone were to ask me what kind of hobbies ("shumi") I have, I'd say something along the lines of "I do aikido" ("aikido wo shite imasu"). I don't think there's any precise term to designate someone as "One who practices aikido."

-- Jun

I suppose you could say, "Aikido ga daisuki desu."

dragonteeth
07-17-2007, 08:36 AM
On the flip side, though, it seems we use -ist in English the same way the Japanese use -ka....chemist, dentist, optometrist, herpetologist, etc., so aikidoist connotates the same idea as aikidoka IMHO. The only advantage is that in English we can add the prefix "amateur" to any "ist" descriptive.

Since our dojo is non-profit and volunteer-taught, none of our yudansha would technically ever be able to take the -ka ending. My sensei seems to reserve the term aikidoka in particular for those yudansha and students who have shown a dedication to studying and practicing the art both within the dojo and in their personal lives that goes above and beyond the "weekend warrior" types who only do it on the weekends as a hobby. I guess he sees the difference as the seed that falls on shallow soil that sprouts but dies quickly in the hot sun for lack of root (aikido student, weekend warrior), versus the seed that falls on good earth that grows deep roots and produces much fruit (aikidoka).

Otherwise, I think I would prefer to say that I train in aikido, that I practice aikido, or that I'm an aikido devotee, rather than use the term aikidoist. That isty thing just sounds too scientific for my taste!

Just my humble opinion...
Lori

mjchip
07-17-2007, 08:46 AM
In the early days of Aikido-L, I vaguely remember Jun recommending "aikido shugyosha" instead of "aikidoka" for the reasons he mentioned above.

I hope my memory isn't failing.

Mark

Beard of Chuck Norris
07-17-2007, 09:06 AM
Interesting. I always had thought (probably like a lot of you) that the ka was a practitioner of whatever preceeded it.

Is the kanji for ka the same as the ka in "doka" i.e. one of the "songs of the way" ? I think that's what it meant but i'm pretty rubbish at this stuff.

Aikidoer? Like wrestler or grappler or boxer ?

In kendo most are happy to call themselves kendoka... or kenshi so how about aikidoshi? Student of aikido?

Peace and love

Jo

PeterR
07-17-2007, 09:12 AM
Sure lets play cut and paste with a language. :D

Beard of Chuck Norris
07-17-2007, 09:27 AM
That's pretty much how words are made dude.

PeterR
07-17-2007, 09:34 AM
That's pretty much how words are made dude.

Sure - please go to Japan and use them.

Basia Halliop
07-17-2007, 10:34 AM
Sure - please go to Japan and use them.

Why would anyone want to do that? I thought the conversation was about the term used when speaking English? Or should we be, for instance, using german plurals or french conjugations for every word borrowed from those languages? Latin declensions, maybe?

PeterR
07-17-2007, 11:09 AM
Read the thread from the top - its not that long. If we are going to use Japanese terms then we might as well use them right and that means being understood by the Japanese. Aikidoist works for me since aikido has the status of a loan word but aikidoshi - what is that?

Basia Halliop
07-17-2007, 11:44 AM
Aikidoist works for me since aikido has the status of a loan word but aikidoshi - what is that?

I see -- since you didn't quote a particular post I thought you were objecting to all the 'not how they would say it in japan' terms, including normal english stuff like aikidoist and so on.

Mark Uttech
07-17-2007, 12:09 PM
I rather like 'aikidoka' because it sounds close to 'amigo'. I've envisioned a humorous action film someday based on the exploits of "The Three Aikidokas"

In gassho,

Mark

Peter Goldsbury
07-17-2007, 07:16 PM
This thread started early in 2002, died, and has since been resurrected. There is another thread with almost the same name and I posted in another, similar, thread only a few weeks ago, with all the dictionary evidence. Which is that the suffix -KA has evolved sufficiently in the Japanese language to have a wider range of meanings and nuances than has been given in this thread.

Every language imports or assimilates foreign words and they gradually become established as authentic words in that language, so much so that native speakers themselves are sometimes unaware of the etymology, Thus, if we are thinking about Japanese cultural terms: judo, aikido, kendo, tempura (in Japanese as well as in English), karaoke, seku-hara are all noun imports, which have found a place in the host language. However, they have found a place on the terms of the host language, not the language from which they have been imported.

But this process takes place over time and there is a grey area, especially in aikido, where the assimilation is still going on, in the sense that people can still ask how the term being imported is used in the host language. In the case of aikidoka, the Japanese language is of little use, since the term is not really used at all, so the issue will turn on what sounds right or feels right to native speakers of English and the choice seems to be at the moment between aikidoist and aikidoka. (Neither sounds right to me and I avoid using either term, but I live here and do not hear English so much.)

There is a parallel with the word sempai and, to a lesser extent kohai. These two terms have a very specified meaning and usage in Japanese, but they are used in a much wider sense in English. I wince about this occasionally, but the new usage cannot be helped. The words have found a place in the US / UK dojo vocabulary and this will not change any time soon.

Josh Reyer
07-18-2007, 04:14 AM
Is the kanji for ka the same as the ka in "doka" i.e. one of the "songs of the way" ? I think that's what it meant but i'm pretty rubbish at this stuff.
Jo

No. The "ka' of doka is 歌, uta, derived from Chinese "ge" (Cantonese "go"), and meaning "song". The "ka" of "aikidoka" is 家, ie, derived from Chinese "gu" (Cantonese "ga"), and means "family, or one engaged in a profession".

Beard of Chuck Norris
07-18-2007, 06:43 AM
No. The "ka' of doka is 歌, uta, derived from Chinese "ge" (Cantonese "go"), and meaning "song". The "ka" of "aikidoka" is 家, ie, derived from Chinese "gu" (Cantonese "ga"), and means "family, or one engaged in a profession".

That's more like the kind of response i was hoping for!

Thanks Joshua.

I'd much prefer to be corrected / taught than have some one look down their noses at what i have written.

Beard of Chuck Norris
07-18-2007, 08:50 AM
:ai: :ki: 士

or

:ai: :ki: :do: 士

No?

This is what i was meaning. I accept it's probably wrong!

Peace and love

Jo

Josh Reyer
07-18-2007, 10:02 AM
Here's the thing. While "kendoka" and "kenshi" might be widely used among western practioners, it is my impression (and this is with the caveat that I don't know all that many kendo practioners) that the same reservations about "-ka" apply, and "kenshi" is typically used for effect. Like referring to a boxer as a "pugilist", or a poker player as a "rounder". The nuance of 士 is one of a gentleman scholar. One might look at a guy that devoted his life to kendo and say, "He's a real kenshi," but I don't believe that Japanese kendo folk generally refer to themselves as "kenshi".

Beard of Chuck Norris
07-18-2007, 11:04 AM
Here's the thing. While "kendoka" and "kenshi" might be widely used among western practioners, it is my impression (and this is with the caveat that I don't know all that many kendo practioners) that the same reservations about "-ka" apply, and "kenshi" is typically used for effect. Like referring to a boxer as a "pugilist", or a poker player as a "rounder". The nuance of 士 is one of a gentleman scholar. One might look at a guy that devoted his life to kendo and say, "He's a real kenshi," but I don't believe that Japanese kendo folk generally refer to themselves as "kenshi".

Kendo people (not the big high ranking dudes, just "normal" ones because i don't personally know any high ranking kendoka) would happily call themselves kendoka or kenshi. Sometimes with a 選手 (senshu) added for competitions to show they are players / competitors.
I have been told that in Japan they'd refer to themselves as kendoka almost exclusively.

Josh Reyer
07-23-2007, 02:38 AM
Kendo people (not the big high ranking dudes, just "normal" ones because i don't personally know any high ranking kendoka) would happily call themselves kendoka or kenshi.

Are we talking kendo people in Japan or in Scotland?

jennifer paige smith
07-23-2007, 10:07 AM
Sure - please go to Japan and use them.

I've heard ridicule of O'Sensei for the same thing. I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy the company.

dalen7
07-24-2007, 01:29 AM
its funny, because in Hungary, 'ka' is used at the end of the name to mean 'little'. (well 'ke' or 'ka' depending on the ending of the word)

i.e. With peoples names - Sandor - Sandorka / Zoli - Zolika
It can be used to differentiate between adult and kid, or used just as a friendly term for a friend.

so Aikidoka would be 'little Aikidio'. :)

Of interest, I was given an Aikido Magazine from Sensei Imre (4th dan from the seminar) and in the back of the mag was a list of terms, and they (hungarians) actually use the name Aikidoka also. (of course, more along the lines of how its used in the aikido world, and not how I described the use of 'ka' above. :)

Just thought I would throw this post in this thread for fun.

Peace

Dalen

Basia Halliop
07-24-2007, 08:49 AM
Dalen, it's similar in Polish, except that in Polish 'ka' would be only for the feminine diminuitive, and the masculine one would end in 'ek'. e.g. Hanna might get called Hanka sometimes, especially when she was a child, and little Jan might get called Janek sometimes -- although if you were just being informal but they weren't little it might be Hania and Jas'... or again little Jasek (with a dash on the s). Every word can have endless mutations. Polish is weird... I guess every language is if you look at it too closely.

Although there's also the odd pair of words where the feminine non-diminutive word ends in 'ka' (instead of the regular 'a' for regular feminine words) just because it's awkward to pronounce otherwise...

ie: male teacher = nauczyciel
female teacher = nauczycielka

So even though my Polish doesn't come as naturally to me as my English, when I hear Aikidoka it does sound kind of like ' a female Aikido' which makes me think of 'a woman who does Aikido', which is fine with me :).

It's amusing, but it also makes me think that If Japanese is half as subtle as other languages, we're probably unlikely to use its grammar or morphology in a halfway correct Japanese way without a fair amount of fluency.

Erik Calderon
07-24-2007, 09:33 AM
I don't call myself an Aikidoka.....

http://www.shinkikan.com

jennifer paige smith
07-24-2007, 10:03 AM
I don't call myself an Aikidoka.....

http://www.shinkikan.com

Not sure what you're trying to show on the link.......s.o.s...

dragonteeth
08-06-2007, 12:06 PM
I thought I would post this just for kicks.... My four year old son is addicted to the Japanese tv show Sasuke, which in the US is broadcast as Ninja Warrior. Various episodes are available on YouTube, so I won't bore you with the details. However, I should mention that the commentary is in Japanese, with English subtitles. One of the competitors was noted to have studied karate in college, and the term used in the Japanese commentary was clearly "karateka," even though the young man in question was a professional model. It suprised me to hear that after reading some of the posts above.

For those of you who are more fluent in Japanese than I am (which would cover about 95% of the board's population), is the use of -ka more acceptable in the case of a karate student? If so, does anyone know why?

Thanks!

Dirk Hanss
08-07-2007, 04:24 AM
Just a few cents from my side.
If -ka is only used for people,who are professional and fully dedicated to 'whatever-it-is', then, isn't DO a path you follow with all your heart and you should be totally dedicated to? I might be wrong as I don not really speak Japanese, but that is what I was told.
But to me it seems, if you are not an aikido-ka, what you are practising cannot be aiki-DO, but probably only aiki-sports?

For me myself it doesn't matter. Neither am I professional in Aikido, nor am I good. And Aikido is not evereything in my life, but it has been grown so important, that I would say, my life wouldn't be the same without Aikido. So I am dedicated to aikido, even if I show up in the dojo just a couple of hours per week.

So I follow the Path of Aiki and that is why I call myself aikidoka.

You may call me a fool - it is just another word for it ;)

best regards

Dirk

Josh Reyer
08-07-2007, 04:28 AM
For those of you who are more fluent in Japanese than I am (which would cover about 95% of the board's population), is the use of -ka more acceptable in the case of a karate student? If so, does anyone know why?

Thanks!

Not more acceptable in the case of a karate student, but acceptable as an example of the hyperbole frequently engaged in by the highly dramatic announcers of such TV shows as Sasuke.

Lorien Lowe
08-09-2007, 01:00 AM
aikideshi? (vs. doshi)

Keith Larman
08-09-2007, 10:50 AM
Let's see... Runner, weight lifter, jogger, tennis player, footballer, ...

Soooo, Aikidoer. Or Aiki-doer.

It works for me...

:D

Of course everyone knows the real answer is 47...

Ron Tisdale
08-09-2007, 11:31 AM
Yes, but did you bring your towel??? ;)

B,
R

Keith Larman
08-09-2007, 12:16 PM
Yes, but did you bring your towel??? ;)

B,
R

What? Huh? I can't hear you, the fish in my ear must be broken... ;)

I'm starting to feel old. And very nerdish...

Budd
08-09-2007, 12:17 PM
Don't panic . . .

Budd
08-09-2007, 12:21 PM
Though as an avid aikidoka I stand by the real answer being 42 . . .

(Proud of reading comic books, playing video games and choking out people at every agreeable opportunity - and very secure in his geekiness)

Bronson
08-09-2007, 01:46 PM
Yup, 42 is the correct answer ....now, if we only knew the question.

Bronson

Bronson
08-09-2007, 01:58 PM
According to Jim Breen's Japanese page the kanji for aikido practitioner is $B9g5$F;2H(B; which, I believe, is aikidoka (but I may be completely wrong as my Japanese is nill and I had to dig around through the links to find the romanji :D )

I will often just call myself an aikido practitioner or student.

Bronson

Keith Larman
08-09-2007, 02:16 PM
Yup, 42 is the correct answer ....now, if we only knew the question.

Bronson

Aiiiieee! They're on to me *and* they know the real answer...

Trying not to panic...

Keith Larman
08-09-2007, 05:06 PM
I just say I train in Aikido. Nothing more complicated than that. I don't see why it needs to have some "special" word to signify what we do.

Josh Reyer
08-09-2007, 11:33 PM
According to Jim Breen's Japanese page the kanji for aikido practitioner is $B9g5$F;2H(B; which, I believe, is aikidoka (but I may be completely wrong as my Japanese is nill and I had to dig around through the links to find the romanji :D )

I will often just call myself an aikido practitioner or student.

Bronson

No "n" in "romaji".

The problem is that aikidoka is an aikido practitioner, but not all aikido practitioners are aikidoka...

Bronson
08-10-2007, 12:46 AM
No "n" in "romaji".

DOH! Stupid "n" :p

Bronson

Walter Martindale
09-08-2007, 06:34 AM
I call myself "Chris", but that's just me.

Best,

Chris
My parents called me "Walter" - at least, that's what they told me...

When I used the expression "Aikidoka" at a former dojo, I got told in no uncertain terms that I wasn't one, but the Japanese fellow saying this wouldn't supply the appropriate word. Perhaps he didn't want to say "fat old man"
Cheers,
W

Mark Uttech
09-08-2007, 06:50 AM
I hope they make the movie soon: "The Three Aikidokas", and borrow a phrase from "The Three Amigos"

"We won't die like dogs! We'll fight like lions!"

In gassho,

Mark