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tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 09:52 AM
Push Hands

Ki, Qi, Prana, is the life force that higher level practitioners aspire to. However how does one attain it.

push hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8fxUT5m40s

Ki, Qi, Prana, is the life force that higher level practitioners aspire to. However how does one attain it.

1. As you watch the video first understand that there is a "give and take". An up and down and in and out...a male and a female.

2. Notice that their is an attack of strikes and an absorbing of those strikes. Likewise, their is a recycling of attacking energy and a re-shooting back of said energy.

3. The main idea is to use 2 ounces to move 2 thousand pounds. As such, there is no "muscling". Instead, we attempt to "take in" and cultivate Ki in order to emit it for the purpose of "death and destruction...birth and creativity

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Kalijin

1. As you watch the video first understand that there is a "give and take". An up and down and in and out...a male and a female.

2. Notice that their is an attack of strikes and an absorbing of those strikes. Likewise, their is a recycling of attacking energy and a re-shooting back of said energy.

3. The main idea is to use 2 ounces to move 2 thousand pounds. As such, there is no "muscling". Instead, we attempt to "take in" and cultivate Ki in order to emit it for the purpose of "death and destruction...birth and creativity

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Kalijin

Mike Sigman
04-18-2008, 12:53 PM
1. As you watch the video first understand that there is a "give and take". An up and down and in and out...a male and a female. Shouldn't there also be "sticking", as in "no resistance, no letting go"?
3. The main idea is to use 2 ounces to move 2 thousand pounds. Actually, I think the quote is more like "use 4 ounces to deflect a thousand pounds". It's actually a famous Taiji quotation, but the same quotation is used in many, many other Chinese martial arts, too. At one time it was one of the saying used to denote a great skill level.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 03:31 PM
Shouldn't there also be "sticking", as in "no resistance, no letting go"? Actually, I think the quote is more like "use 4 ounces to deflect a thousand pounds". It's actually a famous Taiji quotation, but the same quotation is used in many, many other Chinese martial arts, too. At one time it was one of the saying used to denote a great skill level.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

This was a simple push hands. Look at my other tapes for the sticking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXEUQSKDKkE

In this particular tape you see "sticking" not just with the hands and arms, but with legs, hips and back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRJTMt1UjdA

In this tape you see the sticking with a knife and open hand. I also show the contrast to the external style/percussive where I am losing contact.

Mike of course, I have only been studying tai chi chuan for a little more than 30 years. How about you?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-18-2008, 03:44 PM
This was a simple push hands. Look at my other tapes for the sticking: Those appear to be tapes of Kali or one of the Malay/Indonesian/Philippine offshoots of southern Shaolin (which of course have varying emphases on 'sticking' in their own way). I was referring to the breaks in the push-hands video you showed, since you were apparently using the tape as an expositive example. Mike of course, I have only been studying tai chi chuan for a little more than 30 years. How about you? Oh, I am just a simple beginner, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the questions. I was just commenting on the things you publicly posted. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

G DiPierro
04-18-2008, 03:59 PM
Mike of course, I have only been studying tai chi chuan for a little more than 30 years. How about you?And how long has your student in that tape been studying? A year? I really don't see the point of posting videos that show how well you can dominate your beginner-level students.

tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 04:01 PM
Those appear to be tapes of Kali or one of the Malay/Indonesian/Philippine offshoots of southern Shaolin (which of course have varying emphases on 'sticking' in their own way). I was referring to the breaks in the push-hands video you showed, since you were apparently using the tape as an expositive example. Oh, I am just a simple beginner, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the questions. I was just commenting on the things you publicly posted. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Layers within layers. You can't see the tai chi chuan. You are only looking at the outside, my name, my ethnicity and the stick. You see Pilipino and make assumptions. You don't believe that I have studied chinese martial arts for over 35 years.

You aren't looking for the connection, "how the sticking is applied to the self defense technique.

What if I told you I was chinese? Would that change your prejudice? I put these tapes up to challenge your beliefs, to challenge the utility of your method. If you can point out the falsity of the technique, I will value your comments.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-18-2008, 04:15 PM
You aren't looking for the connection, "how the sticking is applied to the self defense technique. [quote] Actually, it is simpler than that, Joseph. I was going by the fact that you physically break connection with your student in the videoclip. As I was taught, this is not what push-hands invovles. [quote]What if I told you I was chinese? Would that change your prejudice? I put these tapes up to challenge your beliefs, to challenge the utility of your method. If you can point out the falsity of the technique, I will value your comments.Well, don't get me wrong. I neither stater nor implied any "prejudice" about things Phillipino. I was just pointing out that the bridging and trapping, etc., in the Malay/Indonesian/Philippino varieties of Kali (and other terms for other variations) derive from the southern Shaolin arts like Hakka, Bai He, Wing Chun precursors, and so on. In other words, I asked a question about Taiji and your response was using demonstrations of Kali... and they are not the same arts. I.e., I was looking for a response specifically about Taiji, since that was what you were posting about.

In terms of "pointing out the falsity of technique", it's your thread... I'm waiting to see what your point is and see what you have to say about push-hands.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 04:18 PM
[QUOTE=Joseph Arriola;203984]You aren't looking for the connection, "how the sticking is applied to the self defense technique. [quote] Actually, it is simpler than that, Joseph. I was going by the fact that you physically break connection with your student in the videoclip. As I was taught, this is not what push-hands invovles. Well, don't get me wrong. I neither stater nor implied any "prejudice" about things Phillipino. I was just pointing out that the bridging and trapping, etc., in the Malay/Indonesian/Philippino varieties of Kali (and other terms for other variations) derive from the southern Shaolin arts like Hakka, Bai He, Wing Chun precursors, and so on. In other words, I asked a question about Taiji and your response was using demonstrations of Kali... and they are not the same arts. I.e., I was looking for a response specifically about Taiji, since that was what you were posting about.

In terms of "pointing out the falsity of technique", it's your thread... I'm waiting to see what your point is and see what you have to say about push-hands.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Well, lets compare your videos. I've watched them too.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-18-2008, 04:34 PM
Well, lets compare your videos. I've watched them too.That doesn't seem to answer the observation I made, though, about "sticking" or the one about "four ounces deflects a thousand pounds". I'm not that interested in getting into a lengthy back and forth... you are the one who posted the video for comments and I tried to make some for you. Obviously we should have simply said, "Very nice". Very nice, Joseph. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 05:02 PM
That doesn't seem to answer the observation I made, though, about "sticking" or the one about "four ounces deflects a thousand pounds". I'm not that interested in getting into a lengthy back and forth... you are the one who posted the video for comments and I tried to make some for you. Obviously we should have simply said, "Very nice". Very nice, Joseph. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Well, thank you...that's better.

There are a lot of guys out there who criticize but, don't have skills to back their criticisms. They simply criticize.

You asked me about "sticking" and I showed you an additional video on the application of "sticking". Then, you went back to the original tape and stated their was no sticking.

There was sticking and their was a releasing of the sticking. I can only state what I am demonstrating. Of course you can make your opinion. But, it gets tiring hearing criticism from people who don't first explain their credentials.

There was a time, when "rank, experience and age" meant something. I grew up in an asian culture where "young people" looked up to and admired the accomplished. They aspired to be like them with time and practice. Today, we have 20 something masters, with no experience or success who sling their criticisms while hiding behind their screen names.

Now, I'm assuming you and I are both in our 50's. I am assuming, you and I have been studying at least 40 years. I have been in practice for nearly 45 years. So, we must have some common ground. Since, I put up some videos on sticking...maybe you too can put up some of your videos on the "continuous sticking" you are talking about.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-18-2008, 05:21 PM
There are a lot of guys out there who criticize but, don't have skills to back their criticisms. They simply criticize. I see it differently, Joseph. Someone may not have the experience or "ranks" that I have, but if they bring up a valid point, I will discuss it as factually as I can. Who knows... as the logic unfolds maybe I will have some new insights.
You asked me about "sticking" and I showed you an additional video on the application of "sticking". Then, you went back to the original tape and stated their was no sticking.

There was sticking and their was a releasing of the sticking. But you were talking about push hands and I was simply pointing out that the sticking was not maintained. And of course if the sticking is broken, the jin is broken, so the push-hands is not complete. At least, that's the way I have learned it from my teachers. Is continuous sticking not logical to you? If so, why not? I can only state what I am demonstrating. Of course you can make your opinion. But, it gets tiring hearing criticism from people who don't first explain their credentials.

There was a time, when "rank, experience and age" meant something. I grew up in an asian culture where "young people" looked up to and admired the accomplished. They aspired to be like them with time and practice. Today, we have 20 something masters, with no experience or success who sling their criticisms while hiding behind their screen names. Yet I know a number of Asian "masters" who are not really masters, Joseph. Are you saying that "rank, experience and age" are important or are the true facts important? This is why I avoid the discussions about rank, age, and so on. I simply have never been convinced that they tell us very much. Most people in the martial arts tend to give the best resume' that they can, in my experience. Regardless of my age or experience or credentials, I would fully expect even a beginner to ask me why the sticking was not continuous in a push hands tape, particularly if I posted it for comments. But perhaps we have different outlooks. Who knows? Now, I'm assuming you and I are both in our 50's. I am assuming, you and I have been studying at least 40 years. I have been in practice for nearly 45 years. So, we must have some common ground. Since, I put up some videos on sticking...maybe you too can put up some of your videos on the "continuous sticking" you are talking about. I don't have any videos of me pushing hands, Joseph. I think I put out a set of videos in the early 1990's that had some push hands on it, but I assure you that never releasing would have been common in all of the pattern push hands that I ever did. And all matters of peng jin, lu jin, ji jin, an jin, sticking, central-equilibrium, etc., etc., are tied to one another since they are all aspects of qi/ki, so that "sticking" is just one of the small links in a complete chain. But please, don't let me interrupt. It is your thread and obviously you have something important to say.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 06:13 PM
[QUOTE=Mike Sigman;203990]I see it differently, Joseph. "Someone may not have the experience or "ranks" that I have, but if they bring up a valid point, I will discuss it as factually as I can. Who knows... as the logic unfolds maybe I will have some new insights."

Mike,
I learn every day from my students. I watch and learn from the evolution of the movement. The student unknowingly "mutates" and suddenly their is an insight that leads to a technique that leads to a addition to a concept, a challenge to a venerated concept or perhaps, an altogether new concept which must then be tested and repeated.

However, I quickly challenge the failure of a young student to "think out his responses". I'm quite fortunate. 99% of my students have college degrees and over 35% have advanced degrees. I am also lucky and unlucky in attacking the special forces types.

"Quote: But you were talking about push hands and I was simply pointing out that the sticking was not maintained. And of course if the sticking is broken, the jin is broken, so the push-hands is not complete. At least, that's the way I have learned it from my teachers. Is continuous sticking not logical to you? If so, why not?"

Well, if you watch closely...in this version of push hands and their are many...the idea is not simply to create the unbroken continuous connected flow. You must learn to break the flow to create the strike, pressure pt, joint manipulation and grapple. The better you get the more the "brokeness" is subtle and unseen. In this particular tape their were many palm strikes that were absorbed my the woman student. Look closely and you will see me striking and absorbing and her simply absorbing.

"Quote: Yet I know a number of Asian "masters" who are not really masters, Joseph."

I agree. Most are masters because a crowd decides they are masters. So how do we know who the true masters are? You develop and eye for "result". It is not enough to talk, or to be aware of academics or definitions. The master must be willing to touch whoever walks into his doors...whether physical, intellectual or spiritual or over the internet.

"Quote: Are you saying that "rank, experience and age" are important or are the true facts important? This is why I avoid the discussions about rank, age, and so on. I simply have never been convinced that they tell us very much."

Well, I have a BA from U.C. Berkeley and a Juris Doctor, from U.C. Hasting College of the Law. Does it mean I am educated? Perhaps not. But, it does indicate that I went through some sort of rigors to get my CA Bar license.

Did the fact that I studied with some famous teachers make me a great and knowing martial artist. No...if the student doesn't have the capacity...the teacher can't pass his knowledge. Because I can spout theory, history and philosophy also means nothing...yet it contributes to my overall learning of the physical technique. Ah, it always comes down to the utility of physical technique.

"QUOTE: Most people in the martial arts tend to give the best resume' that they can, in my experience. Regardless of my age or experience or credentials, I would fully expect even a beginner to ask me why the sticking was not continuous in a push hands tape, particularly if I posted it for comments."

I think I answered.

"QUOTE: But perhaps we have different outlooks. Who knows? I don't have any videos of me pushing hands, Joseph. I think I put out a set of videos in the early 1990's that had some push hands on it, but I assure you that never releasing would have been common in all of the pattern push hands that I ever did. And all matters of peng jin, lu jin, ji jin, an jin, sticking, central-equilibrium, etc., etc., are tied to one another since they are all aspects of qi/ki, so that "sticking" is just one of the small links in a complete chain.

Well..."your assurances" are a matter of opinion. I respect your opinion. I hope you will grow to respect mine.

"QUOTE: But please, don't let me interrupt. It is your thread and obviously you have something important to say."

Mike,

I welcome your "push" in this thread. I hope you welcome my push back.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Regards,

G DiPierro
04-18-2008, 07:14 PM
The better you get the more the "brokeness" is subtle and unseen. In this particular tape their were many palm strikes that were absorbed my the woman student. Look closely and you will see me striking and absorbing and her simply absorbing.So the drill is that you can break connection and strike at will while she must just stand there and passively absorb your strikes? Why isn't she hitting you back?

Mike Sigman
04-18-2008, 07:15 PM
But you were talking about push hands and I was simply pointing out that the sticking was not maintained. And of course if the sticking is broken, the jin is broken, so the push-hands is not complete. At least, that's the way I have learned it from my teachers. Is continuous sticking not logical to you? If so, why not?" Well, if you watch closely...in this version of push hands and their are many...the idea is not simply to create the unbroken continuous connected flow. You must learn to break the flow to create the strike, pressure pt, joint manipulation and grapple. The better you get the more the "brokeness" is subtle and unseen. It is a new idea to me. The dictum "no resistance, no letting go" has always been the defining criterion, as far as I've ever heard, and that's from every person who has ever taught me, including Chen Xiaowang. You obviously disconnect in your pattern (BTW, trust me that I've seen thousands of individual takes on push-hands patterns... the basic tenets should still apply). Well, I have a BA from U.C. Berkeley and a Juris Doctor, from U.C. Hasting College of the Law. Does it mean I am educated? Perhaps not. But, it does indicate that I went through some sort of rigors to get my CA Bar license. Then certainly you understand that the name and qualifications for J.D. are regulated by the State of California? The name and qualifications of most (if not all) martial arts teachers (and many other vocational callings) is not regulated. So it is not an apt comparison. But perhaps we have different outlooks. Who knows? I don't have any videos of me pushing hands, Joseph. I think I put out a set of videos in the early 1990's that had some push hands on it, but I assure you that never releasing would have been common in all of the pattern push hands that I ever did. And all matters of peng jin, lu jin, ji jin, an jin, sticking, central-equilibrium, etc., etc., are tied to one another since they are all aspects of qi/ki, so that "sticking" is just one of the small links in a complete chain. Well..."your assurances" are a matter of opinion. I respect your opinion. I hope you will grow to respect mine. Hmmm, it's not quite just "opinion", on my part. I have quoted the relevant dictate from the classical admonitions that apply to all styles of Taiji and your tape clearly shows physical disconnect. Your opinion may be that such a move is allowable, for some reason that you haven't fully justified yet, but my opinion is that proper push-hands practice doesn't allow for it, for the reasons I stated. But it's not worth further debate. You have your opinion, obviously, and I have chosen to stick with the well-known classical dictates. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 07:32 PM
Mike,

No...the basic tenants only apply to the basic student. This is why there are levels. The simple to the more complex. The complex back to the simple.

So, a beginner is taught the "simple" basic tenants. He looks up to the teacher that is doing the seemingly complex. He assumes that the person doing the technique is advanced. When he himself gets there he encounters an adept that is seemingly doing something "simple", Because of his prejudices, beliefs and repeating of his teachers' words he assumes he is better than the true adept that has simplied the method. The intermediate is stuck in his box.

If the intermediate (who may in fact have practiced the same way for 40 year} encounters a true master his world will fall apart. If he has the capacity to change his views and beliefs he will see that "what was correct" for the beginner is not "correct or the master". He will see that the master is capable of keeping the rules and breaking them at will.

Perhaps, you can put some of your fighting tapes your application tapes up for view. In this way, we can better compare and contrast.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Ron Tisdale
04-18-2008, 08:22 PM
Cough...jeez, I would never call *myself* a "master", even when calling someone else "intermediate". ;)

Why not leave it to the "crowds" to make up their own minds? :D

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman
04-18-2008, 08:27 PM
No...the basic tenants only apply to the basic student. Ah. I see. If the intermediate (who may in fact have practiced the same way for 40 year) encounters a true master his world will fall apart. Oh, I see. Well, it has been enlightening to learn these things. Thank you for your teaching.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 08:47 PM
Mike,

Only the student can teach himself. A teacher just talks and provides a model. I like to learn. So, I prefer to be called a student. You on the other hand I will call teacher.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Chris Parkerson
04-18-2008, 09:18 PM
Greetings Joseph,

It was a pleasure meeting you and working out with you while I was working on that project in San Francisco. I especially appreciate the private time we had to do a little scrimmage/push hands.

Two dimensional videos just do not do justice to your skills. And if video could pick up your subtlety, it would require a shelf of video to fully grasp how you have fused your study of Baqua, Tai Chi and Traditional kali into an art as unique as yourself. I especially appreciated your examples of precise Dim Mak points executed with instinctive yet regulated internal power.

What I found most enjoyable was one of the specific things you are being critiqued on in this strain. Rules are made to be broken. Martial arts is about strategy and good strategy is deceptive, playing upon an opponent's assumptions and expectations.

I will be back in your area in May and will be around there for a good three months. As before, I will look forward to joining your group as well as the group in Chinatown, Oakland.

tuturuhan
04-18-2008, 09:40 PM
Greetings Chris,

Thank you.

Thank you for hiring some of my people on your project. You are quite the mover and shaker. My guys appreciated the $300 a day that you paid them. I really appreciated what you did for them.

Given the fact that my students were small guys they were in awe of the big big guys you hire for your security services corporation. I look forward to seeing you in May.

Best
Joe

Aikibu
04-19-2008, 02:48 AM
Dear Mike and Joseph,

There is an excellent article in this months Journal of Asian Martial Arts on how to best post pictures and videos of your techniques for instructional purposes in print and on the web.

I mean no disrespect to either one of you but may I suggest you both pick up a copy and read it. Perhaps you will both find it inspiring.

Sadly in my mind your exchanges reinforce an argument I have had about "internet videos" for some time. Namely it is not so much about the quality of instruction or the vast experiance and depth of understanding both of you have about your respective arts....Nope...It's about how best to present it accurately to both the layman and experianced viewer so it transmits in the best possible light what you're trying to teach

Most You Tube Posters have no professional media experiance and most Martial Arts instructors do not grasp the huge differances between teaching a live class and filming one. I would bet the house if anyone actually took the time and hired a professional to script a class and film it that all the frustration folks felt about "not getting it" would disappear.

All of us would greatly benefit because lets face it... There are not that many instructors of your quality around, and I feel the time is now to start thinking about how your going to preserve and pass on what the both of you have learned.

Shoji Nishio Shihan comes to mind. I have 35+ years of experiance myself and that man's "prana" was something to behold. Sadly he shied away from documenting his teaching because our Aikido is always changing and he felt that all anyone would get is a snapshot of what he expressed at that particular moment in time. The few instructional DVD's and books that exist do not really do him justice....

I hope you two choose to do it differently.

Respectfully,

WIlliam Hazen

tuturuhan
04-19-2008, 08:08 AM
William,

You are absolutely correct. I'm still trying to grasp. That seven year inside me has and will probably always take me to perilous places...

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-19-2008, 08:53 AM
I would bet the house if anyone actually took the time and hired a professional to script a class and film it that all the frustration folks felt about "not getting it" would disappear. There are some pretty explicative videos of Aikido out there. Let's take Tohei's for example. He talks about ki and he shows some basic methods and "tests" using ki. But no one gets it. Why? Because the jin/kokyu forces (which are technically part of "ki") cannot be seen; in fact they are sometimes called "the concealed strength". If you've been doing them for a while, you can spot whether someone else knows how to use them (often by what they do *wrong* that would be impossible if they really knew how to use jin/kokyu forces). But how many people have been able to "get it" from Tohei's videos? Darn few and even the ones that do get it seem to have just gotten some basic-level skills. I.e., in relation to teaching jin/kokyu skills, videos don't work very well. Still pictures are even worse.

The next thing I would say is that if you don't know an art very well, it's difficult to know who is good and who is razzle-dazzling you. So please don't assume that I know anything. I don't. I'm an amateur. My claim to fame is that I know it and I often get into trouble asking "famous teachers" how it is that I'm an amateur and they're a "famous teacher" but they don't know something very basic. I.e., I'm interested in real knowledge and forward progress and I have little time for self-promoters unless they're good at what they say they are.

Reminds me of a guy in Chicago (although this is a very common scenario across the US) who learned some White Crane on Taiwan. Strong guy, good fighter, knows how to condition his hands and break coconuts and all that sort of thing. But he understands that the money is better in "Tai Chi" so he picked up a Tai Chi form and started marketting his White Crane stuff as "Tai Chi". The average American can't spot the difference and all they know is that this Chinese guy is stronger than they are and can do some impressive stuff, so they think his "Tai Chi" is good. They simply don't know what to look for. Knowing what to look for has a lot to do with any pictures/videos. I hope you two choose to do it differently.Ermmmm.... I'm not doing any videos for this topic. Push hands isn't so simple that I would try to explain it via video on a Taiji forum, much less an Aikido forum.

The solo form in Taiji has to do with learning how to move with jin/kokyu power and using the qi/ki of the body at the same time. To an experienced eye, it is pretty obvious who can really do that and who is just doing an external version.

After someone learns to move with jin/qi (not before), they start the push-hands patterns from simple to complex in order to learn how to use jin/qi with a partner. Using jin/kokyu/ki with a partner is what Aikido techniques are about, too... supposedly. What would be better for this sort of forum would be some videos showing how the ki/kokyu skills are maintained through an Aikido technique. There are already some like that ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkVy569CAnI ), but the explication is not clear unless you already know how to do it.

Perhaps someone should take a few basic techniques of Aikido and film with careful explanation how to slowly do those basic techniques with ki/kokyu all the way through. That wouldn't be a bad idea, BTW. Hmmmmmm. Maybe we should start a thread on it. I'll start a thread on that idea on the QiJin forum and see if the Aikido guys can suggest a filmable syllabus that. I'll be glad to serve as a ki/kokyu advisor if someone ever wants to put together something like that, but my Aikido isn't sufficient anymore to contribute mort than that.

Good idea, William. ;)

Best.

Mike

tuturuhan
04-19-2008, 09:20 AM
Mike,

Its not what you see. It's what you don't see. I wouldn't worry about the beginner's eye. I'd worry about the intermediate's eye.

Certainly, I would like to see your version of push hands. I would like to see any of your applications in martial arts. Perhaps, some old sparring footage. I have only seen your "body alignment" tapes. I would value the comparison and contrast.

Connectedness and sensitivity is a concept that is quite hard to apply in physicality. It's easy to quote definitions, history and philosophy.

Here is another video on weapons push hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2o8M4HvcLY

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-19-2008, 09:41 AM
Mike,

Its not what you see. It's what you don't see. I wouldn't worry about the beginner's eye. I'd worry about the intermediate's eye.

Certainly, I would like to see your version of push hands. I would like to see any of your applications in martial arts. Perhaps, some old sparring footage. I have only seen your "body alignment" tapes. I would value the comparison and contrast.

Connectedness and sensitivity is a concept that is quite hard to apply in physicality. It's easy to quote definitions, history and philosophy.

Here is another video on weapons push hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2o8M4HvcLY

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva ArriolaJoseph, I think various actual experts visit San Francisco occasionally. Chen Zheng Lei, Chen Xiaowang, and others. I'd suggest that you might enjoy comparing notes and explaining your views of doing things. It would be interesting to hear later why your way of doing things and moving and push-hands is so different from theirs. After you've done something like that, I'm sure all of us beginners would be interested in hearing, from both sides, what the outcome was.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
04-19-2008, 09:51 AM
Certainly, I would like to see your version of push hands. I would like to see any of your applications in martial arts. Perhaps, some old sparring footage. I have only seen your "body alignment" tapes. I would value the comparison and contrast.Joseph, if you have a topic that you want to talk about publicly, please feel free to do so. If you know the topic very well, I would assume you can talk about it and explain the nuances, answer questions, and so forth. I can't see any valid or respectable reason to attempt to change a topic into personal comparisons of videos... that sounds too much like some sort of pecking-order diversion from the topic at hand. Besides, you personally have already declared that you are a master-level and I am but an intermediate-level and you were able to do sight unseen, so we really don't need any videos, do we? :D Thank you for the promotion, BTW.... I tend to think that I am just a beginner.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-19-2008, 10:02 AM
Mike,

Don't be so modest. I've seen the tapes you have promoted for your seminars. I'm just curious as to their utility.

Can I use your technique to fight, for health. What reason and purpose? You seem to purport an understanding of Qi/Ki. And of course the purpose of this thread was to talk about the development and use of Qi.

As such, I would love to hear your opinions and or results. How has your practice brought you prosperity? How have you been able to defend yourself on the street? How have your seminars benefited the community?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Mike Sigman
04-19-2008, 10:23 AM
Don't be so modest. I've seen the tapes you have promoted for your seminars. I'm just curious as to their utility.

Can I use your technique to fight, for health. What reason and purpose? You seem to purport an understanding of Qi/Ki. And of course the purpose of this thread was to talk about the development and use of Qi.

As such, I would love to hear your opinions and or results. How has your practice brought you prosperity? How have you been able to defend yourself on the street? How have your seminars benefited the community?Sorry, Joseph... as I indicated, I'm not particularly interested in making this thread a discussion about me or in making it a comparison of you and me. Besides, since you are already a maestro of Tai Chi, you are just teasing me and you understand full well the utility of what is on my tapes, right? ;)

Let me go back to something you said for a moment, because I disagree:

"It's easy to quote definitions, history and philosophy."

I understand that it's easy to use definitions, philosophy, etc., very easily as scattered buzzwords to impress the ignorant. Often the person trying to impress people is ignorant of how little he knows, when he attempts to impress others. And besides, as we always used to say... "but can he fight?".

However, over the long years I began to learn that some of my teachers weren't just overly into theory and trying to satisfy some pedantic urge they had in them; they were trying to explain things. At first, I saw no reason for the explanations. They were at best just fine points that didn't appear to have much utility. But as I've progressed, I've found that I can't go anywhere without understanding those finer points.

It's like the way you disconnected in push hands. In the past, I would have seen no reason why someone *MUST* stay connected, particularly with a beginner; but I do now. In the past, I saw no real reason for the emphasis on certain positions, ways of holding the body, ways of moving (they are giveaways to what someone knows), and so on. So I would offer my agreement that for anyone it easy to quote definitions, history and philosophy, but it is very hard to quote definitions, history, and philosophy if someone doesn't really understand them. They simply give away, by the way they explain things, how much they don't know. So in that sense, I am always happy to listen to peoples' explanations... any way you cut it, I learn something about either them or the subject at hand.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Upyu
04-19-2008, 10:27 AM
<snip>

As such, I would love to hear your opinions and or results. How has your practice brought you prosperity? How have you been able to defend yourself on the street? How have your seminars benefited the community?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph,
much respect for putting your vids up there, and I know some mutual people that have touched hands with both you and Mike.

That being said, I can say Mike definitely knows what he's talking about with regards to this subject, and if you continue to switch the subject like this, instead of talking about the practical mechanics behind the Qi/Jin aspects you're going to do yourself a disservice.

More and more people out there are getting exposed to it, and I guarantee that the "philosophical" angle on Qi/Jin won't fly too well with them.

Body skills and fighting are two separate things. No one's saying you can't fight. But if you can't explain the practical aspects behind the physical skills of Qi/Jin, I think you'll find yourself losing the trust of a lot of people that have had hands on time with peeps that have actual internal skill (and that are willing to teach)

Let's get the conversation back on track about the practical physical elements behind Qi/Jin skills

M2C, fwiw

Mike Sigman
04-19-2008, 10:47 AM
Incidentally, since my old tapes (they were put out in the mid 1990's and I quit selling them when I didn't feel like video was doing a good job because of the lack of "feel") have come up, let me use them to explain where I come from.

Where I come from, I'm used to going into schools, tournaments, demonstrations, etc., in the company of various martial artists who are big names in mainland China. I have spent a lot of time with some of these people and have been taught by a number of them. When, for instance, there is a demonstration at some large national tournament and "masters" from many styles, many countries, mainland China, Japan, etc., perform (this is also true of when we wind up watching videotapes together at home), there is always a clinical evaluation of someone's skills, but all the evaluations have to do with someone's "qi" and his power first, then his expertise in the subject art that is being performed.

So looking at someone's movements, way of generating power, postures, etc., that support those basics, and so on... all of that is just a common first step that *everyone with even moderate skills* does, in the world I'm talking about.

So back to the tapes I did. Anyone I know and respect with even moderate skills would probably look at those tapes for about 2 minutes and say something like, "Oh... you're trying to show people how to use basic jin". Then they'd lose interest, because it's such an obvious topic.

So think about the above and the world I'm used to travelling in. When I read various comments about those tapes, I already know what real experts will say. They'll just shrug because they already know the topic and it's not even a debate point. It's the way things are. I just shrug, too. They were no big deal.

But is that stuff "useful"? My goodness! ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

G DiPierro
04-19-2008, 10:48 AM
It's like the way you disconnected in push hands. In the past, I would have seen no reason why someone *MUST* stay connected, particularly with a beginner; but I do now.I myself am of the opinion that you judge an art or teacher by the fundamental logic of martial strategy, not that you take martial strategy to be whatever a specific teacher or art says. Of course, that requires having some understanding of that logic oneself. Although I'm far from an expert in push-hands, the logic of the exercise seems clear enough to me that I would expect that if one were to break connection as is done in this video when were working with someone who actually knew how to do push-hands, it would result in the person breaking connection immediately getting pushed. While one can get away with doing this to a beginner who does not understand this logic and thus does not know what do when her partner breaks connection, I would say that doing so teaches exactly the wrong lesson.

Chris Parkerson
04-19-2008, 11:35 AM
Greetings Chris,
Given the fact that my students were small guys they were in awe of the big big guys you hire for your security services corporation.


Joseph,

I think your guys ended up among a team of recently returning Marines. They handled themselves with professional aplomb.

AikiJen also came up for a bit of training. As it happened, it was during shift change and she found herself in the midst of a hallway full of Macho. She used an expertly-crafted Yin form of Aiki strategy and made Teddy Bears of the bunch.

I am feeling your pain and respect your patience with the cynics on this site. A couple of months ago, I layed out a few "pearls". Hidden in plain sight, I guess they must have been..... Or perhaps egos interfered with the possibility that a free "tip of the iceberg pearl" is a pearl nonetheless and should be received with grace and professional appreciation. As for me, no more public shows. The cynics were a weariness of spirit.

Chris Parkerson
04-19-2008, 07:31 PM
Tuturuhan,

Just out of interest. Would you be willing to elaborate on the following...

1. When I trained with the group, I really liked your constant interchange between stickiness and percussion while circle walking; i.e. the drills you used for lack of better terms were: legs only - evade, attach/parry/stick (with the knees) and strike (any portion of your leg with internal power) against specific nerve points or blood vessels on the opponent's torso was great practice. Same with the arms only drill. Same with the arms and legs drill. Same with the weapon-in-hand and legs drill.

Once we moved to the heavy club, there was less opportunity to stick with the weapon hand. How quickly are your students learning to stick with the support hand while weilding heavy instruments with the weapon hand? This challenge seems similar to teaching Aikido yudansha to throw two ukes with separate hands in different directions.

2. Your "one hand strikes 5 times in one second on 5 separate points" technique had wonderful accuracy, percussive power and stickiness. Same with your "one hand brfeaks a joing five times in one second" technique. Is there an exercise that can enhance the training of such a technique? It appears that there is a stickiness and release and re-stickiness that you were able to accomplish within a tenth of a second.

I would love to hear your response on or off line.

Mike Sigman
04-19-2008, 07:50 PM
Did something go wrong with the private mail function? Or is there some sort of private show going on that wasn't mentioned in the "push hands" part of the thread-title?

Just Curious.

Mike Sigman

tuturuhan
04-20-2008, 08:46 AM
Hey Chris,

Well, you and I are on the same track. It is not about "what we know". It is about what we are uncovering.

It is about honing our skills by using more of our "mind extention" than our body extension.

In the exchange of your videos, I have seen the following: "blend, grasp and manipulation". In other words, when you first touch your uke you "intersect" to his body. This is the blend. Next, you grasp,,,not necessarilly with your hand but with the "connectedness" of your body. Because your opponent is moving there must be "contiuous realignment". In other words you must "stick" to him.

But, once you "manipulate" you are taking action. You break the "connection". You throw him to the ground. If you hold on to him he with take you to the ground. As such, when you break connection you must "cut him off at the knees, the neck, the hand etc".

The push hands teaches the "give and take"(striking and absorbing), the development of sensitivity, body architecture, and Qi emission and absorbtion.

There are a series of levels and layers within layers. The beginner is oblivious. The intermediate is blinded by "what he thinks he knows". The adept finds "utility" for his knowledge. It is not enough to know...you must do.

Best,
Joe

Mike Sigman
04-20-2008, 09:37 AM
Hey Chris,

Well, you and I are on the same track. I absolutely agree! And best of luck wherever it is that you're going!

Regards,

Mike "Anything is Taichi or Aikido" Sigman

tuturuhan
04-20-2008, 10:04 AM
Mike,

Well, the undercurrent is a good step. Go deeper into the darkness and you will find greater layers. Best to you...

Push on...stay connected. But, know how to strike and manipulate.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Chris Parkerson
04-20-2008, 02:54 PM
tuturuhan,

You read both my movement and intent well. It has been a major project of mine for several years to be able to topple uke with body positioning, stickiness and throwing points without the use of arms or hands.

I made excellent headway after I left San Francisco. I spent two weeks in San Diego and trained with my Koryu Headmaster. The improvement was astounding. Now back to practice. Push hands without arms or hands....

By the way, remember the video of the guy that bounced uke into the air through his grasp and sucked him in through the grasp. I showed it to Clodig. He gave me some simple pointers. Getting decent at it already. But it will take some time to make the movement subtle.

Michael Douglas
04-20-2008, 05:35 PM
Very nice.

Very entertaining.

As for the video : what is the girl supposed to be doing apart from trying to put her hands on the tense guy's arms?